Really, what has Nintendo done right? List reworked.

[Mookyjooky]

REWORKED MY LIST:

They've botched so many things, I'm surprised they still stand in the industry. It's like they've been riding on the success of the NES and its licenses for 20 years...

Now, seriously, listen to me before you freak out and get all fanboyish on me - I LOVE NINTENDO, and MARIO and all the other licenses... I've owned EVERY single system they've had since the NES.

I just kinda wish that they would stop making hardware and focus on their games...

I just dont get the whole Nintendo bandwagon, just 2 years ago everyone hated Nintendo, then they remake the GBA again, talk about the Wii and release the first decent system in years (DS) and now everyone is in love with them again... I just dont follow the bandwagon, and I think its idiotic to get screwed by Nintendo again and again. So, tell me... why is NINTENDO so awesome? Because 2 years ago, they were going the way of ATARI. Is it just cool to like them cause they're the underdog? Because newsflash, they're NOT the underdog, they're freakin NINTENDO.

- Here's why I dont trust them.
The first GBA, you couldnt see the screen.. and when they fixed it and resold it as the GBA SP for another $100+ dollars, they made you pay extra for a headphone adapter for a Portable game system!
They screwed up the whole Squaresoft thing years ago and still havent really patched it up. I mean, didn't square hold the Snes together? Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy....
They've lost tons of 3rd party support, EA being a major one.
Dual screen is a Gimmick... and the DS doesnt have enough titles that fully support the touch screen.
Mario Party is retarded, and nintendo has focued attention on that... and not they're highest selling gamecube game, Smash Brothers.
Metroid has been losing and regaining powers since the 80's, another story PLEASE.
Zelda will be cancelled for the gamecube, and only for Wii - YOU KNOW IT.
Wheres all the fighters, RPGs or Shmups?
Why is Gamecube the new Dreamcast?
Why doesnt Nintendo pay companies for exclusive titles like MS and Sony does? They did what, one Capcom contract? What about all the other 3rd party games made exclusive for Gamecube that jumped ship? Was their no legal binding contract?
If they're the lowest selling current console system, how come they're games never drop in price?
Super Mario Bros. 3 is one of the top selling games of all time... why not release a 3d Mario with the same ideas that made that one so inventive?
Dr Mario sold 4.85 million copies, Kid Icarus sold 1.76 Million copies, Punch Out sold 3 Million copies, Luigi's Mansion sold 3.27 million copies.... sequel? Anyone? What about Animal Crossing? Couldn't they at least put that online, or released extended content? I mean, only one Smash Brothers, Mario Kart & Mario platformer per console? Whats the point?
Why does Star Fox suck now?
No Online support?
Crappy support of the GBA to Gamecube link?
Mario needs to stop play sports, and release a good game.
I'm sorry, but the Mario sports games only sell because it's mario, and its the only sports games released anymore. Even Hot Shots Golf, is three times better than Mario Golf.
Nintendo games lack replayability now. Even flagship titles dont have hours of finding items in them anymore.
Why not just kill the gamecube? Why even bother to sell it still, if you havent done anything for it in a year or two?
Games that would of been PERFECT on the Gamecube. Kingdom Hearts, Dragon Quest, Eye Toy series, DDR series, exclusive Sonic titles.... hell, why Nintendo didnt just have Sega make exclusive titles for the gamecube is beyond me. Sega releases alot of crap now, but the gamecube is perfect for alot of Sega's old licenses... Imagine Space Harrier on the gamecube exclusive.
If the GBA SP, is what the GBA should of been all along, and the DS lite is what the DS should of been all along, then should I just not buy a Wii until its fixed too?You can flame me if you want, but I just dont see the appeal anymore. I love Nintendo licenses, but I feel like I'm taunted by with what Nintendo could be and not what it is.

[Apossum]

I disagree with most of your points. I think they're doing more right just by looking to the future of gaming, rather than sitting pretty and banking off of FPS and "urban" games.

i don't feel like backing anything up though...I'm sure if someone cares too, they will point out all the same stuff I would. :lol:

what does this have to do with the Wii though? how are they trying to screw people with the Wii? (<--you see what i did there, lolz?)

[munch]

I think you could clear this list down to about 6 things if you cut out all of the redundancies.

[the3rdkey]

I think you just misunderstand that Nintendo was never going the way of Atari and has and will always will have a huge fanbase because they make awesome games.

Some of my favorite games this gen were on GCN even tho I owned a PS2, Xbox and gaming PC.

[Mookyjooky]

I disagree with most of your points. I think they're doing more right just by looking to the future of gaming, rather than sitting pretty and banking off of FPS and "urban" games.

i don't feel like backing anything up though...I'm sure if someone cares too, they will point out all the same stuff I would. :lol:

what does this have to do with the Wii though? how are they trying to screw people with the Wii? (<--you see what i did there, lolz?)

Well, my biggest issue isnt so much Nintendo, as really what Nintendo could be.

I agree with you're statements about FPS and Urban games... but isnt Metroid & Guist both nintendo FPS? Guist was crap, and both Metroids, though good... were insanely blocky and really short.

It just seems like the only company to truely use the gamecube was Capcom. The Gamecube was an amazing system, and they never reached 100% capabilities... but its because no one tried except for Capcom.

[Mookyjooky]

I think you just misunderstand that Nintendo was never going the way of Atari and has and will always will have a huge fanbase because they make awesome games.

Some of my favorite games this gen were on GCN even tho I owned a PS2, Xbox and gaming PC.

Awesome, name them. And name ones that werent on any other systems or remakes.

[Ikohn4ever]

dude every company makes mistakes, look at some of the mistakes sony made with gaming alone:umd, broken systems, loss of rumble, possibly blu-ray.

Nintendo has been building the hype for Wii well, without releasin much info at all

[zebbers]

#5 is wrong. The support will come as developers learn to use it. Dual screen won't instantly make every game better...but The Sims 2 has shown me that it can totally revamp portable gameplay.

I do agree that the DS is the only thing they have done REALLY RIGHT over the past years. They've had a hold on the portable market *just because*, but the DS was an innovation.

[Mookyjooky]

I think you could clear this list down to about 6 things if you cut out all of the redundancies.

Then do it, and I'll replace my list... I thought the only redundant ones were the Squaresoft ones.

[Wlogan31]

I think you could clear this list down to about 6 things if you cut out all of the redundancies.


Agreed - you listed EA at least 2 times and they seem to be jumping back on board for Wii (from what I've read), so maybe at least 2 of your complaints will be solved.

Also, Square is slowly coming back around and Nintendo seems to be at least attempting to forge a relationship (something they refused to even think about in the past).

Last thing I want to say: People will always love Nintendo because Nintendo is simple. They represent gaming in it's finest form - FUN.

[AFStealth]

You bitched about EA support more than once. But if you ask me, it's a blessing that EA won't touch the cube.

But I like how you're #13 answered itself.

[E-Z-B]

I generally agree with the OP.

Behold the newest Nintendo gimmick! The Wii controller! (Nevermind that most people will get tired of using it the gimmicky way, and turn it 90 degrees to use as a regular controller, thus yielding the Gamecube II).

[jkam]

I do agree with some of the statements you made but I don't really want to go down the list and answer each one. The one MAIN reason I like Nintendo is because they care about games and only games. I really don't like the whole media direction that Sony and MS has taken...not because extras aren't nice but because I feel as if too much energy is focused on that. I like that Nintendo makes quality hardware and if its not quality they stand behind making it right.

I walked away from Nintendo during the N64 (I bought a playstation). Still my least favorite Nintendo system. The Gamecube however has given me lots of enjoyment which really is the main point. I don't play too much online so that really isn't a huge draw for me. I realize there is a lack of 3rd party games but if the CUBE has it I'm buying that version for shorter load times and for playing with the wavebird.

The DS definitely has some games that I feel I couldn't have played anywhere else. Pac-Pix and Pac N Roll were in my opinion amazing. Short but amazing. As long as I can play and have fun them I'm in. Some games do use the dual screens well (Sonic Rush Metroid Pinball) its just that not every game really calls for them.

I think the Wii will be great because like the DS we'll get all new original games as well as standard games that we all know and love. Like Castlevania on the DS.

I hear you on Starfox though....Assault was eh and the original and 64 are so great. I hope command on the DS will be better but people already said controlling the ship with the stylus was so-so. Hopefully they'll have a normal control option.

[Doom Gaze]

Almost all of that was fanboy drivel, but

"If they're the lowest selling current console system, how come they're games never drop in price?"

It's "their", but it's true. They take way too long to come down.

[Mookyjooky]

Nintendo has been building the hype for Wii well, without releasin much info at all

How do you figure? They've been at, at least 2 E3s, maybe 3... talking about how revelutionary the Wii will be.

- Virtual Console is a cool idea... but thats not really that innovative. I'm sure they didnt even think it would sell till Xbox Live arcade.

- From whats been said, the Wii wasnt even that awesome at E3.

- Its a mouse. Or a stylus in another form. Get ready for DS sequels.

- Isnt one of the big selling points is the fact that FPS is perfect for the system? Who was talking about FPSs not being a focus of Nintendo?

[Vinny]

1. I don't know if that's wholly true. I could see the screen just fine in well lit areas, but most of the time was was difficult, yes.
2. Yeah.
3. Oh yeah.
4. I don't know if it's their fault... EA can't help the fact that most Nintendo system owners buy Nintendo games. For third party games, they go to MS or Sony.
5. You can't say it's a gimmick if there have been some games that make good use the functions (Nintendogs, Brain Age, etc.). It just shows the games that need it, use it because it has the option. And games that don't need it, use it for something non-intrusive (like NSMB).
6. Mario Party is damn fun with friends. Take a look at Mario Party and SSBM, which one do you think turns out more money (revenue)?
7. And we've been saving the world from immanent evil in every single game, what's your point?
8. ...
9. So, you'd rather those series became like Mario Party and Pokemon?
10. Besides the PS2, I don't think either one of the current gen's consoles covers every genre very well.
11. The Dreamcast survived for 1.5 years, the GC made for almost five.
12. They don't pay for exclusives because they have the most recognizable franchises to date. Besides, unless they bought out the studio it won't be easy to keep exclusives (like the games made by Silicon Knights and Factor 5).
13. Because if they can keep selling those games at $50, then they will. Do you think any other company would just decide to drop the price of their games if it continued to sell enough to turn a profit?
14. Super Mario Bros 3 is not the best selling game of all time, it's Super Mario Bros. http://www.vgcharts.org/worldtotals.php
15. They held up the SNES? Are you kidding me? They probably made up a small fraction of game sales on the SNES.
16. Do we really need another Tetris? (see: Tetris DS)
17. Again, do you want another Mario Party and Pokemon?
18. Compare those numbers to other games for the respective consoles, you'll see why there's no sequel (maybe except for Luigi's Mansion).
19. Because Nintendo hasn't made one since the N64 days.
20. Nope, because they wanted to make it either way and so far it has its advantages over the others (though I'd rather have XB Live).
21. It was a bad idea... and you want them to keep supporting it?
22. Read #4.
23. Mario does everything... and most of his sports games are good at the very least.
24. Mario sports are fun and easy to pick up, and a lot more enjoyable if you have friends playing with you.
25. When did a majority of Nintendo games ever have replayability?
26. They've admitted they screwed up, but they're not going to completely leave the people who supported them. Go see MS and the Xbox if you want a premature death of a system.
27. Ok, you're definitely on the wrong system.
28. Why didn't MS and Sony have Super Mario Bros. on their system? It takes a huge amount of money to get system exclusives, that's why they worked out 5 from Capcom. Then Capcom screwed them over.
29. How many times did Nintendo do revisions of its consoles?

After reading all those, I'd have to ask.. have you seriously been a Nintendo lover all this time? I seriously don't think you have...

[Mookyjooky]

Almost all of that was fanboy drivel, but

Fanboy of what? My favorite compainies are Nintendo and Sega.

It's just the both of them are severly lacking now.

I think for it to be fanboy drivel, wouldnt I be upping another system?

I LOVE NINTENDO. I just wish they would be amazing, instead of mediocre. Paper Mario 2 was good, but really... can we have a NEW title?

Is it just me, or did all of Nintendo's and Sega's brightest and most innovative game designers die in the 90's?

[Ikohn4ever]

How do you figure? They've been at, at least 2 E3s, maybe 3... talking about how revelutionary the Wii will be.




there is hype because you are talking about it, there is hype because we are all talking about it. They have barely released info, which makes people want more info. There is a slow media hype wagon developing. I have seen many mainstreams news and media programs run something about the Wii already, and no one has a clue.


I am the first to admit they have made a ton of mistakes, but they are at least still around to correct them

[botticus]

Responses in bold, that took way too much effort :P

They've botched so many things, I'm surprised they still stand in the industry. It's like they've been riding on the success of the NES and its licenses for 20 years...

Now, seriously, listen to me before you freak out and get all fanboyish on me - I LOVE NINTENDO, and MARIO and all the other licenses... I've owned EVERY single system they've had since the NES.

I just kinda wish that they would stop making hardware and focus on their games...

I just dont get the whole Nintendo bandwagon, just 2 years ago everyone hated Nintendo, then they remake the GBA again, talk about the Wii and release the first decent system in years (DS) and now everyone is in love with them again... I just dont follow the bandwagon, and I think its idiotic to get screwed by Nintendo again and again. So, tell me... why is NINTENDO so awesome? Because 2 years ago, they were going the way of ATARI. Is it just cool to like them cause they're the underdog? Because newsflash, they're NOT the underdog, they're freakin NINTENDO.

- Here's why I dont trust them.
The first GBA was a joke, you couldnt see the screen
This sort of thing happens often. If you can't see the screen, don't buy it.
The GBA SP needed an adapter (Which you had to buy!) to plug headphones in.
Stupid, agreed.
They screwed up the whole Squaresoft thing years ago and still havent really patched it up.
Yes, but they are working on it as can be seen by a lot of the nice DS titles we've seen, hopefully it will continue with Wii.
They've lost tons of 3rd party support. EA,
A lot of this is residual from the previous generations, I think. And they seem to be coming around this time. Nintendo has new leadership, let's see where it goes.
Dual screen is a Gimmick... and the DS doesnt have enough titles that fully support the touch screen.
Disagree. The best use of the second screen is a persistent map. Anything they do on the touch screen in those games is just icing. Remember, there are some console games that don't use all the buttons on the controller.
Mario Party is retarded, and nintendo has focued attention on that... and not they're highest selling gamecube game, Smash Brothers.
What are they supposed to focus on with SSBM? A sequel on the GC, when it's already one of the highest selling titles? Why bother?
Metroid has been losing and regaining powers since the 80's, another story PLEASE.
This point is contradicted by a lot of your requests for more games from every other franchise, maybe you just don't like Metroid much?
Zelda will be cancelled for the gamecube, and only for Wii - YOU KNOW IT.
Maybe, maybe not, does it matter?
Only one SSB, Mario Kart & Mario game per console? Whats the point?
People buy it?
Wheres all the fighters, RPGs or Shmups?
That's not the kind of company they are. They can't have a studio with top talent for every genre. That's where third parties come in.
Why is Gamecube the new Dreamcast?
You mean 4 years after it was introduced?
Why doesnt Nintendo pay companies for exclusive titles like MS and Sony does?
Because they make their own exclusives.
If they're the lowest selling current console system, how come they're games never drop in price?
Because everyone buys them.
Super Mario Bros. 3 is one of the top selling games of all time... why not release a 3d Mario with the same ideas that made that one so inventive?
Most of the ideas wouldn't translate to 3D. And people bitched enough about the great game that was NSMB which was making a new 2D mario with the same ideas that made that one so inventive.
Squaresoft held up the Snes, WTF? Why isnt Nintendo on their hands and knees getting them back?
Redundant.
No Nintendo Tetris for the Gamecube?
Nope. But there's one for the DS. I think they had tried to make one for GC but some licensing deal got screwed up or they missed a window or something.
Only one animal crossing, and a remake for the DS?
How many do you want?
Dr Mario sold 4.85 million copies, Kid Icarus sold 1.76 Million copies, Punch Out sold 3 Million copies, Luigi's Mansion sold 3.27 million copies.... sequel?
Super Punch-Out. They aren't gonna make a sequel for everything. And other people would complain if they did.
Why does Star Fox suck now?
I wish I knew.
No Online support?
Not anymore.
Crappy support of the GBA to Gamecube link?
Because it was a pain in the ass. Let's anticipate better use and support of a DS to Wii link.
All of gamecubes best exclusive 3rd party titles are jumping to the PS2 and Xbox...
Higher installed base.
Mario needs to stop play sports, and release a good game.
He does both.
I'm sorry, but the Mario sports games only sell because it's mario, and its the only sports games released anymore. Even Hot Shots Golf, is three times better than Mario Golf.
Your opinion, I greatly enjoy the Mario sports games, though Tennis was a bit of a disappointment for me since I was looking for one with more difficulty.
Nintendo games lack replayability now. Even flagship titles dont have hours of finding items in them anymore.
Examples, por favor.
Why not just kill the gamecube? Why even bother to sell it still, if you havent done anything for it in a year or two?
Because it sells and they're making money off it.
What happened to EA?
They're in various cities around the country and the world. They are also working on 6 games for Wii, including more unannounced titles. They didn't make enough money on their sports franchises on the GC, so stopped supporting them.
Games that would of been PERFECT on the Gamecube. Kingdom Hearts, Dragon Quest, Eye Toy series, DDR series, exclusive Sonic titles.... hell, why Nintendo didnt just have Sega make exclusive titles for the gamecube is beyond me. Sega releases alot of crap now, but the gamecube is perfect for alot of Sega's old licenses... Imagine Space Harrier on the gamecube exclusive.
This is under Nintendo's control how?
If the GBA SP, is what the GBA should of been all along, and the DS lite is what the DS should of been all along, then should I just not buy a Wii until its fixed too?
They always revise portables. They never revise consoles. Portables can always be made more portable. All consoles can do is be made more powerful, which presents versioning issues so isn't done.
You can flame me if you want, but I just dont see the appeal anymore. I love Nintendo licenses, but I feel like I'm taunted by with what Nintendo could be and not what it is.

[Skylander7]

How do you figure? They've been at, at least 2 E3s, maybe 3... talking about how revelutionary the Wii will be.

- Virtual Console is a cool idea... but thats not really that innovative. I'm sure they didnt even think it would sell till Xbox Live arcade.

- From whats been said, the Wii wasnt even that awesome at E3.

- Its a mouse. Or a stylus in another form. Get ready for DS sequels.

- Isnt one of the big selling points is the fact that FPS is perfect for the system? Who was talking about FPSs not being a focus of Nintendo?

I gotta disagree with two of these, although this entire forum is merely opinion of perspective.

The Virtual Console is a great idea, as Nintendo has wanted a way to kill both emulation and the game collecting market for ages. Why? They aren't making money from them. They have looked at services such as Gametap and realized (FINALLY) that there is still demand for the old software. Therefore, they have really gone the extra mile to secure deals with former console makers to emulate other consoles. Thus, Nintendo/former hardware manufacturers/software companies have now established a method to profit from software once thought obsolete. By doing so, they realize that the best way to fight emulation is to offer emulation themselves.

The DS isn't as much of a gimmick as you think. It has made a booming market (handheld gaming) much more accessible to users who otherwise wouldn't be interested. 2 cases in point: 1, my girlfriend (who plays the shit out of Brain Age and New SM), and 2., they're even marketing the damned thing towards middle aged housewives (Nintendo has actually advertised the thing by buying commercial airtime during soap operas/The View/etc etc etc). Therefore, it isn't an issue of being a gimmick; yet instead, it's a new input method for the user to access the software.

Nintendo may be releasing "gimmicks", but it can also be seen as a revolutionary way of viewing gaming input. Most manufacturers wouldn't have the balls to risk innovation out of the possibility of lost profits.

Lastly.. once upon a time, someone logged onto their computer when GUI's became popular and navigated their screens using tab and enter. Then the person said "hey.. it'd be nice to have a form of input to just point and click on the things I want to do." Thus.. the mouse was born. I'm sure somebody called it a gimmick then.. but look at it now. I'm willing to bet you used it to submit your replies :)

[botticus]

I'm willing to bet you used it to submit your replies :)
I didn't know you could use the mouse on CAG... I've been doing lots of tabbing and enter. :-(

[RedvsBlue]

I generally agree with the OP.

Behold the newest Nintendo gimmick! The Wii controller! (Nevermind that most people will get tired of using it the gimmicky way, and turn it 90 degrees to use as a regular controller, thus yielding the Gamecube II).

Not to mention that I'd imagine its difficult to get any sort of precision with it. You're gonna be anywhere from 5-10 ft from your TV. I think the Wii controller will be really fun at first but then will just end up feeling like a hassle to play after 6 months of owning it.

[Mookyjooky]

11. The Dreamcast survived for 1.5 years, the GC made for almost five.

I was talking about some of the Gamecube's top selling games were Dreamcast rehashes.

13. Because if they can keep selling those games at $50, then they will. Do you think any other company would just decide to drop the price of their games if it continued to sell enough to turn a profit?

I guess its just Nintendo making money off their failures... they make a shitload of money on shitty sports games because they're the only ones on the system. They make a lot of money on all games, because the system has none.


14. Super Mario Bros 3 is not the best selling game of all time, it's Super Mario Bros.

Actually, Super Mario Bros. was a pack in, Super Mario 3 is the best selling non-pack-in game of all time. But if you notice, I didnt even say that, because I said "One of the best selling games of all time"... not "The best selling game of all time". But in both instances, I'm right.

15. They held up the SNES? Are you kidding me? They probably made up a small fraction of game sales on the SNES.

You're right, in the SNES days... Squaresoft sales were low. :roll:

18. Compare those numbers to other games for the respective consoles, you'll see why there's no sequel (maybe except for Luigi's Mansion).

Dr Mario selling almost 5 million copies in a time period where gaming was a speck of what it is today, is nothing short of AMAZING. Where have you been?

19. Because Nintendo hasn't made one since the N64 days.

Then NINTENDO loses. Really, its their license... who's fault is that when its gets dragged through the mud? Please.

21. It was a bad idea... and you want them to keep supporting it?

Not really, I just want them to stop gouging the customer for new items they never support. They're worst than Sega was now.

E-Reader, GBA2GC link, GBA player, anything Pokemon, Backwards compatibility with older GB games, GBA now that the DS is out, it's like they give up after they screw their customers into buying this crap. The new DS lite doesnt even fit GBA game correctly, jesus...

23. Mario does everything... and most of his sports games are good at the very least.

24. Mario sports are fun and easy to pick up, and a lot more enjoyable if you have friends playing with you.

I havent seen a good sports one since the 64. The games are tired, and lack innovation. Just graphical upgrades, thats not worth $50.

27. Ok, you're definitely on the wrong system.

1st 4 games I bought on the gamecube - 1. Mario Sunshine, Wave Race, Rebel Assualt and Burnout 2. After Nintendo decided to make the system a minigame system (IE: Mario sports, Warioware and Mario Party) - and Rebel Assault got old... I guess I was on the wrong system. I was expecting another Mario game at least.

28. Why didn't MS and Sony have Super Mario Bros. on their system? It takes a huge amount of money to get system exclusives, that's why they worked out 5 from Capcom. Then Capcom screwed them over.

Did Capcom screw Nintendo? Or did Nintendo screw Capcom by releasing a system and then riding off of Capcom titles till its death.

29. How many times did Nintendo do revisions of its consoles?

SNES = Snes ver. 2
NES = Nes top loader
N64 = Multi-colored ones and Pikachu ones.
Gamecube = Multi-colored ones.
GB = GB pocket, GB color
GBA = GBA SP, GBA micro - a million different colors.
DS = DS lite

After reading all those, I'd have to ask.. have you seriously been a Nintendo lover all this time? I seriously don't think you have...

Being a Nintendo lover doesnt = blindly buying their garbage.

Sorry, but the Virtual Boy was "Revolutionary". Just getting tired of the BS and want Nintendo to focus on giving us an awesome gaming experience and not release garbage for us to support and jump ship the second it drops leaving people with nothing.

[botticus]

Not to mention that I'd imagine its difficult to get any sort of precision with it. You're gonna be anywhere from 5-10 ft from your TV. I think the Wii controller will be really fun at first but then will just end up feeling like a hassle to play after 6 months of owning it.
If it was a pointer, that would be a problem. You don't have to aim on the TV, you just move till the pointer gets where you want it to be, much like with an analog stick.

No one has much difficulty with light gun games anyway... hell, Duck Hunt didn't even have a reticule, and people were able to hit ducks from 10 feet away.

[Skylander7]

If it was a pointer, that would be a problem. You don't have to aim on the TV, you just move till the pointer gets where you want it to be, much like with an analog stick.

No one has much difficulty with light gun games anyway... hell, Duck Hunt didn't even have a reticule, and people were able to hit ducks from 10 feet away.

Or by getting pissed when they sat with the zapper held up against the TV screen for hours realizing that the game didn't stop at level 99! Damned clay pigeons...

[Mookyjooky]

I remember sitting and playing Shadow of the Colossus and thinking, "God this is what Zelda was supposed to become".

The innocence of youth, and needing to find a way to save the one he loves while battling the evils within.

The first Zelda on the NES was like that.

The hero from colossus was weak, feeble and had a very scared / worried look about him. As his adventures went on, he became War torn and hardened... but still had a divine innocence...

I really felt for the hero in colossus, I was rooting for him. He was weak, but he could topple a mountain. I felt like I was truely connected.

Zelda feels like I'm playing with toys. I dont care for Link, or all the funky looking village people. If everyone's happy and funky? Then why not just leave Ganon in charge? Hell....

----------------------------------

Metroid series... why not rebirth the licence with giving you all the powers she's always had, but make it 3rd person a
fast and furious with some parts where she doesnt have the suit? Change things around... the 1st person view was slow nad clunky and kinda ruined metroid for me.

---------------------------------------

Really, is there any reason why Kid Icarus doesnt have a sequel?

----------------------------------------

I think Nintendo's biggest issue is the fact that their licenses are 20 years old, and gamers are around 25-32 male... so why does Nintendo make games for children? Even the Zeldas on the N64 were very teenager-y.... now were older, why not a real Zelda?

Wind Waker was cute... but I really want the epic story of innocence and finding your love... Something exciting! I felt like I was just doing a bunch of busy work at the end. After playing it for weeks, I just gave up when I needed to get the pieces of the master sword at the end... what the hell?

Mario was supposed to be fun and cute, why is all of Nintendo's licenses fun and cute now?

[RedvsBlue]

If it was a pointer, that would be a problem. You don't have to aim on the TV, you just move till the pointer gets where you want it to be, much like with an analog stick.

No one has much difficulty with light gun games anyway... hell, Duck Hunt didn't even have a reticule, and people were able to hit ducks from 10 feet away.

See but the problem is that you won't have any frame of reference to know where you're pointing in a game unless there's a targetting reticule or something. Light gun games are one thing, hell that's the entire point of the challenge in a light gun game, hitting a target. I don't want to be playing Mario, see a cut scene, and then not know where my controller is precisely pointed once I get back. Unless of course it "resets" itself back to a zero point from time to time. You let go of an analog stick and the spring brings it back to the zero point, what's going to be the equivalent with the pointer?

We'll see once it come out but I think Mooky's on to something, the motion sensor thing is gonna get old.

[dmes65]

Also there saying to use a gamecube controller for the new smash bros game. I think I will wait till it drops to $150

[Mookyjooky]

See but the problem is that you won't have any frame of reference to know where you're pointing in a game unless there's a targetting reticule or something. Light gun games are one thing, hell that's the entire point of the challenge in a light gun game, hitting a target. I don't want to be playing Mario, see a cut scene, and then not know where my controller is precisely pointed once I get back. Unless of course it "resets" itself back to a zero point from time to time. You let go of an analog stick and the spring brings it back to the zero point, what's going to be the equivalent with the pointer?

We'll see once it come out but I think Mooky's on to something, the motion sensor thing is gonna get old.

From what I've seen, it has an annoying reticule that flashes and shakes all over the screen... honestly, to me... that's highly irrating.

[botticus]

See but the problem is that you won't have any frame of reference to know where you're pointing in a game unless there's a targetting reticule or something. Light gun games are one thing, hell that's the entire point of the challenge in a light gun game, hitting a target. I don't want to be playing Mario, see a cut scene, and then not know where my controller is precisely pointed once I get back. Unless of course it "resets" itself back to a zero point from time to time. You let go of an analog stick and the spring brings it back to the zero point, what's going to be the equivalent with the pointer?

We'll see once it come out but I think Mooky's on to something, the motion sensor thing is gonna get old.
Mario Galaxy and Twilight Princess both had cursor-type things on the screen indicating the location of the pointer. If that sort of control is necessary, I'm pretty sure it will be included.

But seriously Mooky, I understand this is you venting, but if you don't like the concept of the Wii and its games, then don't buy it. They're not changing anything at this point that will make you happier. If everyone feels like you, then Nintendo will sell ten consoles and stop making them this generation. Then they will just make games and probably handhelds. But congratulations, when they are left with nothing but game licenses, you better believe they will be whored out to Sony and MS in ways you can't even imagine and they'll sell like hotcakes.

Me? I'm incredibly excited about the Wii, and whenever I drop by EB to throw more games at them, we end up talking about how we can't wait for this thing to get released. Not everyone's gonna be happy with every piece of electronics, but I think it's going to be a winner. Yeah, I'd probably be equally excited about the 360 if it were at the same price point because it's not as if I hate games in their current incarnation, but it's not, so I'll get excited about picking that up in two or three years.

[2Fast]

I think you make a lot of good points Mooky, and as a fellow Nintendo fan, I tend to agree with many of them.

I'm still afraid that the Wii will go the way of the Gamecube, the Wiimote will get old fast, and there will only really be about thirty games sort of worth buying for it during its entire run.

Really, if there's anything you were 100% right about, it's that they made Star Fox suck hard - that makes me sadder than anything else.

[Roufuss]

- Here's why I dont trust them.
Mario Party is retarded, and nintendo has focued attention on that... and not they're highest selling gamecube game, Smash Brothers.
Only one SSB, Mario Kart & Mario game per console? Whats the point?
If they're the lowest selling current console system, how come they're games never drop in price?
Super Mario Bros. 3 is one of the top selling games of all time... why not release a 3d Mario with the same ideas that made that one so inventive?
Dr Mario sold 4.85 million copies, Kid Icarus sold 1.76 Million copies, Punch Out sold 3 Million copies, Luigi's Mansion sold 3.27 million copies.... sequel?
Why does Star Fox suck now?
Mario needs to stop play sports, and release a good game.



This is the stuff that really struck a chord with me, too.

- This what I agree with the most, about the price drops. It's RIDICULOUS how Nintendo has a Player's Choice that they never add to (or maybe add to it once a year). I mean, cmon, at least put Mario Tennis on there, game has been out forever. Nintendo makes it seem like a big deal when they cut prices on one of their games... I think if they had a fully featured Player's Choice offering they'd get a bit more support. And yea, the no price drops thing always seems retarded to me, they'd get a bit more sales on games like Chibi Robo if they weren't $50. Nintendo likes to price gouge, I guess, that's evident by the $35 tags their first party DS games command (but everyone complains about $40 PSP games? wtf?)

- Mario Party is retarded, but I guess someone somewhere is still buying it for Nintendo to keep making the damn things. Look at the average reviews, they all get deemed pretty mediocre, you think Nintendo would change the damn formula after awhile. As long as people keep buying it Nintendo will keep churning out shitty sequels.

- Only one SSB per system is flat out retarded. Nintendo made two Pikmin's, two Metroid Prime's, two Zelda's (if TP still comes to the Cube), yet they couldn't crank out a sequel to (as Mooky put it) their best selling game? I would have bought a Cube SSB sequel day 1, as well as alot of other people. On the same note, why Nintendo has completely forgotten about Punch Out is way beyond me.

Hey, here's a point I'll add for you:

- Why does Nintendo not think we're worthy enough of getting ANY new Earthbound game? We didn't get the compliation for GBA, we didn't get Mother 3, and Japan is now getting another compliation for the DS that Nintendo probably won't bring out here either. You know what, fuck it, Nintendo leaves ALOT of its games in Japan, games that are supposedly decent, like Stafi, Kuru Kuruin, Nintendo Puzzle Collection, as well as half of its Nintendo Classics line (which were ripoff's anyways, but I at least wanted Kid Icarus). I thought the days of leaving awesome properties in Japan was over?

I might take a wait and see approach on the Wii, because Cube started out strong and I was sure it would be awesome, but then everyone just abandoned it and there are only about 30 awesome games worth playing on it (which is still a step up from the Nintendo 64). Nintendo also gave up on the Gamecube way in advance, as well, same as Microsoft with the Xbox.

At least Sony plans on supporting the Playstation 2 still.

[Mookyjooky]

I'm not Anti-Wii.... I'm against Nintendo taking the kiddie "fun" and easy to pick up concept to gaming too literally to ALL of their titles.

They really need to back off a bit, and study their old games and try to realize what made them so great. They went so kiddie with all of their titles it kinda insults my intelligence on how horrifically easy they all are to beat.

I havent been challenged in a Nintendo game since - Mario 64... and I couldnt even get past the first level of DMC 3 on the PS2.

I'm not that good, yet I feel like every console Nintendo game is worth $10 bucks... thats not a good feeling. The DS titles are worth a bit more... especially Animal Crossing for the DS.

If Nintendo was going to spend less time on production and value of a game, then why not make the gamecube a cheap game system where you could buy tons of easy and fun games? You know the only reason Mario and his friends are in every game is because that way they dont have to make any new 3D enviroments. Now that goes for the Wii as well, as the Wii is a Gamecube.

In fact, if the Wii is running off a Gamecube at E3.... then why not release an attachment to the gamecube? =) Why do we need to spend another $250 for a gamecube with a lightgun attached to it? You telling me that the cube doesnt have the expansion for it?

[RedvsBlue]

I think you make a lot of good points Mooky, and as a fellow Nintendo fan, I tend to agree with many of them.

I'm still afraid that the Wii will go the way of the Gamecube, the Wiimote will get old fast, and there will only really be about thirty games sort of worth buying for it during its entire run.

Really, if there's anything you were 100% right about, it's that they made Star Fox suck hard - that makes me sadder than anything else.

After how much I regret buying a cube 1 month after launch, I don't think I'll be getting a Wii. I own 5 games for the system still and the only reason I keep those around are for when I have friends over. There were some really great games for the Cube but unfortunately they were few and far between.

I also figured out that there's 13 games for 360 coming out between now and Christmas that I'm seriously wanting. Maybe next year things will look different but I have no intention of being an early adopter of this Nintendo system.

[munch]

/\Just to play devil's advocate here, didn't people say the stylus would get old real fast too?

[ArthurDigbySellers]

I guess its just Nintendo making money off their failures... they make a shitload of money on shitty sports games because they're the only ones on the system. They make a lot of money on all games, because the system has none.

How many people own just a GameCube? I highly doubt that people are buying Mario Superstar Baseball as a alternative to MLB '06 or whatever. I think people buy the Nintendo sports games b/c they are a fun alternative to "realistic" sports games. Some people do not want to play sim sports games but they still want to play baseball.

Not really, I just want them to stop gouging the customer for new items they never support. They're worst than Sega was now.

E-Reader, GBA2GC link, GBA player, anything Pokemon, Backwards compatibility with older GB games, GBA now that the DS is out, it's like they give up after they screw their customers into buying this crap. The new DS lite doesnt even fit GBA game correctly, jesus...

Uh, what? Besides the e-reader and GBA-GC link cable, I don't know what the hell you are talking about. How was the GBA player not supported? You slap it on your GC and it plays GBA games. Pretty simple.

Nintendo released a new system, the DS. Of course support for the GBA is going to dwindle, it's the nature of the beast. The GBA has been out for over 5 years now, that's a pretty good lifecycle for a system. The fact that the DS can play the entire library of GBA games shows Nintendo is not "screwing" their customers. I still can't believe people are bitching that Nintendo didn't add support for the GBC/GB games with the DS. That's like the Wii offering support for NES and SNES games...oh wait...

Also the fact that GBA carts stick out of the Lite doesn't affect the way they play. The Lite still plays GBA games.

[botticus]

Hey, here's a point I'll add for you:

- Why does Nintendo not think we're worthy enough of getting ANY new Earthbound game? We didn't get the compliation for GBA, we didn't get Mother 3, and Japan is now getting another compliation for the DS that Nintendo probably won't bring out here either. You know what, fuck it, Nintendo leaves ALOT of its games in Japan, games that are supposedly decent, like Stafi, Kuru Kuruin, Nintendo Puzzle Collection, as well as half of its Nintendo Classics line (which were ripoff's anyways, but I at least wanted Kid Icarus). I thought the days of leaving awesome properties in Japan was over?
I don't know what their deal is. I don't know if it's some sort of cultural disconnect between NoJ and NoA or what. Like NoJ "knows" that these games won't sell worth shit so they don't even bother? I think this is where we will find out a) How well Reggie is connected to the gaming community and b) How much sway the president of NoA has with the homeland.

Seems to me that a lot of the Japanese properties would really appeal to a cross-dynamic of people in America, Earthbound among them. I mean, to the little kid it's a funny cartoony RPG, while to the 20 and 30-somethings, it's one of the greatest RPGs ever made.

[2Fast]

/\Just to play devil's advocate here, didn't people say the stylus would get old real fast too?

It did. I love my DS, but I really dislike stylus games. It's about as innovative as using a stick to draw in the sand.

[Mookyjooky]

/\Just to play devil's advocate here, didn't people say the stylus would get old real fast too?
Sure its great for Phoenix Wright and Animal Crossing...

But Have you played Mario DS or Metroid on it? I'm sorry, but those games are just unplayable... Mario DS especially.

And games like castlevania where I have to keep going back and forth is completely annoying, but it could be because I'm left handed.

[Roufuss]

I don't know what their deal is. I don't know if it's some sort of cultural disconnect between NoJ and NoA or what. Like NoJ "knows" that these games won't sell worth shit so they don't even bother? I think this is where we will find out a) How well Reggie is connected to the gaming community and b) How much sway the president of NoA has with the homeland.

Seems to me that a lot of the Japanese properties would really appeal to a cross-dynamic of people in America, Earthbound among them. I mean, to the little kid it's a funny cartoony RPG, while to the 20 and 30-somethings, it's one of the greatest RPGs ever made.

I think I read somewhere, about Stafi, NoA didn't feel that the character could work, that the fans wouldn't like it (a little starfish type guy). I might be complete wrong, but that's what I remember... I mean, Kirby works, why don't they at least bring out one Stafi game out of the 4 available and let us for ourselves?

I also think 4 player Nintendo Puzzle Collection would have sold decently, I mean I don't think it will require alot of translation so that's another missed opportunity.

I just don't understand about Earthbound, and I probably never will, because Nintendo publishes other people's RPG's (Tales of Phantasia) but not their own. I mean, cmon, Ness is a sort of flagship character.

[RedvsBlue]

/\Just to play devil's advocate here, didn't people say the stylus would get old real fast too?
I'd argue that it kind of has. The system as a whole hasn't gotten old but the touch screen just isn't used in any of the big games. Mario Kart, New Super Mario (yes I know there's that button on there but how difficult would it have been to just use one of the other face buttons for it? I think the only reason they had that there was to say they used the touch screen), Animal Crossing (personally, I find it a pain to use the touch screen controls), and Castlevania(only used for the seals which isn't fun, its annoying). The sad thing is that most of those games are first party, with one of the most innovative and fun uses of the touch screen being Trauma Center and the Venom levels of Ultimate Spider-man. The system as a whole is great but the touch screen just isn't used very much for an average game. I'm glad its there but the system could do just as well without it.

Anyone else amazed that we're actually having a sensible discussion that hasn't turned into a fanboy flame war? I hope it stays this way.

[Strell]

Mk Juka:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v297/Einzell/SMOKE.gif

Now that such is out of the way....

First off, this is a blatent attempt at a flamewar. Period. There's no other way to get around that. Had I started an anti-PS3 topic, I'd bet it would be closed, as I'm labeled a harsh fanboy. But this is just a potent attempt to piss off the Ninty crowd no matter how you look at it, because it implies Nintendo does little or nothing correctly.

Secondly, we should delete total fanboy posts on both sides in this thread - the Ninty ones and the anti-Ninty ones, as I know each faction will be dutifully represented without logic, but just a bunch of rhetoric and bad spelling. The "NIntendo is kiddie/gimmicky" posts need to be removed just as much as the "Nintendo roxx0rs your mom at night."


Third, you've made this topic with an express mentality beforehand. In other words, even if people refute your obviously bad logic, you'll just fire back with "yea whatever" comments later on down the line. Regardless, lots of people (myself included) will respond anyway. It's like hating a movie before you see it.

Fourth, my guess is that eventually Juka won't respond anymore to this topic OR use a "haha I gotcha!" sort of tactic. That's what I'd do if I were in the same (hilariously embarassing) scenario.

Now let's eliminate some errors in your post:
4) Lost EA? Because they haven't devoted an entire studio to Wii games?
5) Wrong at least halfway. Show me Meteos or Canvas Curse on another system, please.
7) Right. Because no other game does that. Beyond this, at least in Metroid they can adequately explain why Samus loses powers. It's not just "Oh no, Jak and Daxter lost all their fucking weapons again!"
8) *cough*
9) To not oversaturate, which you'd be whining about if they did do that.
10) Smash Bros, Paper Mario, Ikaruga, all AA to AAA titles. I will concede it lacks the number Sony has, but it's on par if not better than MS.
11) You mean it only sold 2 million units?
12) They do, but then those companies turn around and port them anyway.
13) Hi, do you know what profit is? You smoke cigarettes, so you must have some idea. That shit kills people but I don't see prices going down either.
14) Mario 64
16) Do you know what Tetris DS is? And how Tetris is a better suit to portable gaming? No? 'Kay.
20) No profit in it? Nope. Not yet, which is why Wii has it.
21) Solved with wireless.
23) Hmmm, yet they all sell well....Hmmm.
24) Wow, I love how you show contradiction to 23 not one fucking number later.
25) Cuz you'd complain if they did. And you complain if they don't. How does Nintendo win this?
26) Profit again.
28) They did, and even when they are multi platform, they sell best on the GC. This is a problem with Sega being run by morons, not a Nintendo issue. Same reason Namco was idiotic for releasing Soul Calibur 3 exclusive to PS2 when it sold best on the GC.
29) Did they do that with the N64, Gamecube, or SNES? A cosmetic redesign is not the same as adding light. So this is all invalid.

Let's also scan for redundancy:
1, 2
3, 15
9, 17, 18
12, 22
4, 27
1, 2, 29

The second you call Metroid "blocky" and use that as a reason for disliking the game, you might as well just jam lit cigarettes on your balls. This is why it's retarded to argue with you on anything in this post for the most part - you're just going to handslap it away. "Metroid is blocky." Wow. Why even ask us to name games if you're going to use third grade logic to dismiss them?

On the flipside, why don't we talk about what Nintendo has done right? Why not talk about what Sony and MS have done wrong? If you're going to be narrow minded about things to bitch about, you should be prepared to explore counterpoint, but my guess is that you're not.

Responses to responses:
Virtual Console was announced and hinted at long before XBLA was ever touted as a main feature.

The Wii wasn't awesome? Those six hour lines and universal praise from developers to reporters must all be lies from Nintendo! Get your tin foil hats!

"It's a mouse." Neat. 360 and PS3 controllers are.....controllers.

Weren't you talking about FPS not being a central genre? Did you miss Red Steel and Metroid?

A third person Metroid would be shit, I'd guess. The whole point of the FPA idea is that you see through Samus's eyes but still can pull off screw attacks and things. It could not have been handled better as a half ass PN03 ripoff.

SoC = Zelda? Are you high? Link would knock the shit out of those guys. Boohoo that your opinion somehow is representative of a "failure" by Nintendo.

You bitch and moan about all these "wrong" things Nintendo does when half of them are opinion, the other half are redundant, and a fraction are spot on. And then you dismiss the fact that Nintendo is the only profitable game company at this time, has been in the business for 100+ years (25 or so years if you only count video games), and act like they ought to be dead. They aren't Atari, they never have been, they never will be.

And I hope that if by some cosmic mistake that they do die, that they do not whore themselves out to another company to make games for. They've said they won't and I damn well hope they don't, just so everyone could bitch and piss and moan about how we get next to nothing new in the game arena except for GTA with a new color palette. People are so quick these days to act like Nintendo doesn't know what it is doing AND that they think they are so far gone that they should be put down, like they've got rabies or something. It's pathetic the amount of disrespect they get.

Have they been arrogant and made mistakes? Yes. But they are fucking running around saying shit like "we invented 3D." By comparison, Yamauchi stepped down and Nintendo has been receptive to outside help AND has humble people manning the show. They don't have fucker design men running around touting how "___ feature in our game is so fucking awesome you will cum in your pants." Instead they are basically saying "You should just try it out."

It sucks having to defend Nintendo from the baseless bullshit they get vollied at them half the time. No headphone port? Yes that's retarded. But "Omfg I want another Smash Bros?" That's bullshit.

[Roufuss]

I'm going to argue with one point Strell, that giving us another sequel in a 4 or 5 year timespan isn't oversaturation. I don't think if they released another SSB, say, two years after the old one is going to oversaturate the product.

It worked fine with Pikmin, and Metroid Prime, it would have worked fine here.

I think XBLA was always around on Live, even in the old school Xbox days, and was pretty touted back then too, so it was before the VC.

Soul Calibur sold best on GC only because of Link, that is all. SC 3 multiplatform, with no Link, means GC would be dead last in sales.

[Strell]

I'm going to argue with one point Strell, that giving us another sequel in a 4 or 5 year timespan isn't oversaturation. I don't think if they released another SSB, say, two years after the old one is going to oversaturate the product.

It worked fine with Pikmin, and Metroid Prime, it would have worked fine here.

But that's my point exactly.

If we saw a Smash Bros every 2 years, there'd be hordes of people saying OMFG NINTENDO REHASHED SMASH BROS.

Do I want a new one? Yea.

But I don't need one right now because SSBM still has unimaginable play value. I played it yesterday for 2 hours with friends, and it still is fresh, fun, frantic, and amazing. Every battle is unique and fun.

This was after playing it for some 10 hours last week.

This is a situation where Ninty can't win. Whereas Naughty Dog can give us their license every year, the big N gets shit upon because it's a rehash. Another Smash Bros? But we just got one last year! Fuck you Nintendo!

They just can't win. They put mature titles on the system, but no one buys them. They try to innovate, people call it gimmicky. The DS is a success, but it's only because the PSP's library can't compare. They try to innovate in a series, and peopel complain it's a gimmick. But they release a title with a badass looking engine and everyone cries that it is taking too long.

Where were you guys when Nintendo said "we don't want a realistic Zelda, beacuse it takes so long to model everything realistically?

Oh right. You were bitching about Wind Waker.

I'm saying you have to make up your fucking minds at some point. You can't bitch that A isn't B, but bitch when B is revealed. It doesn't fucking work that way. And if you decry both options when a third isn't really available, how in the fuck does a company contend with that?

SC3 sales are irrelevent, primarily because Namco didn't crack a million like Sony told them they would. What is fact is that SC2 sold best on Cube. What would be a good experiment would have been to release SC3 on Cube with Link in it, just to see what sales would have been like.

Do I agree it woudn't have sold better without Link? Yeah. But that didn't happen, and you can't argue with sales data.

[botticus]

I'd argue that it kind of has. The system as a whole hasn't gotten old but the touch screen just isn't used in any of the big games. Mario Kart, New Super Mario (yes I know there's that button on there but how difficult would it have been to just use one of the other face buttons for it? I think the only reason they had that there was to say they used the touch screen), Animal Crossing (personally, I find it a pain to use the touch screen controls), and Castlevania(only used for the seals which isn't fun, its annoying). The sad thing is that most of those games are first party, with one of the most innovative and fun uses of the touch screen being Trauma Center and the Venom levels of Ultimate Spider-man. The system as a whole is great but the touch screen just isn't used very much for an average game. I'm glad its there but the system could do just as well without it.

Anyone else amazed that we're actually having a sensible discussion that hasn't turned into a fanboy flame war? I hope it stays this way.
Advance Wars is great with the stylus. I think I will have trouble playing the GBA games having to use the D-pad.

Kirby Canvas Curse is great with the stylus, though it got a bit too hard for me near the end so I haven't played that in a while.

Viewtiful Joe actually used the touch screen fairly well (no stylus) with special moves. The only problem there is that your thumb is a big old clunky thing and making refined movements is a little tough. Maybe with some work/differentiation it could have been a much better feature.

Bust-a-Move is fun with the stylus.

Phoenix Wright, at least in the new DS-specific level made great use of the features.

Trauma Center.

Electroplankton is fun for what it is.

Battles of Prince of Persia and Age of Empires: see Advance Wars

Feel the Magic/Rub Rabbits/Wario Ware are all good mini-games with the stylus.

Mario Kart, NSMB, Princess Peach, etc all had little use of the stylus, but it was efficient use. It doesn't need to be a central feature of the system anymore than the second screen. And the second screen is used amazingly in almost every game, but no one bothers talking about that, even though it's just as central to the point of the system as the stylus is.

[Rags]

I like Nintendo, and one of my favorite games ever was Star Fox 64. Played that game for hours when I was younger. When I played Star Fox Advetures I almost killed a kitten. I was so disapointed in that game. I never even played the other Star Fox game for GC, because I fear it was the same as Adventures and just as bad.

The Star Fox for DS does look promising and I will pick it up on launch probably. Kinda curious about the controls with only touch screen control.

[RedvsBlue]

Advance Wars is great with the stylus. I think I will have trouble playing the GBA games having to use the D-pad.

Kirby Canvas Curse is great with the stylus, though it got a bit too hard for me near the end so I haven't played that in a while.

Viewtiful Joe actually used the touch screen fairly well (no stylus) with special moves. The only problem there is that your thumb is a big old clunky thing and making refined movements is a little tough. Maybe with some work/differentiation it could have been a much better feature.

Bust-a-Move is fun with the stylus.

Phoenix Wright, at least in the new DS-specific level made great use of the features.

Trauma Center.

Electroplankton is fun for what it is.

Battles of Prince of Persia and Age of Empires: see Advance Wars

Feel the Magic/Rub Rabbits/Wario Ware are all good mini-games with the stylus.

Mario Kart, NSMB, Princess Peach, etc all had little use of the stylus, but it was efficient use. It doesn't need to be a central feature of the system anymore than the second screen. And the second screen is used amazingly in almost every game, but no one bothers talking about that, even though it's just as central to the point of the system as the stylus is.

I didn't say it had to be the central feature. Where do you use the stylus in Mario Kart at all? I've gotten gold trophies on every circuit and I'm yet to put my stylus on the screen.

Like I said New Super Mario didn't need the touch screen. It used it as an extra button when it didn't even need to. The game itself only used 2 of the 4 face buttons to begin with so why not have that touchscreen button for your saved powerup mapped to one of the extra face buttons? It seemed like the only reason it was mapped to the touch screen was so they could say they used it.

Unless a game is specifically designed for touch screen use like Trauma Center, Feel the Magic, etc. I actually find it kind of a pain to have to switch back and forth between touch screen and regular controls. My point is that the system could have easily been made without the touch screen and it wouldn't be that drastically different. Now, the second screen on the other hand is a great addition that does make the system different.

[2Fast]

Now, the second screen on the other hand is a great addition that does make the system different.

QFT, that's absolutely the best part of the system.

[ArthurDigbySellers]

Unless a game is specifically designed for touch screen use like Trauma Center, Feel the Magic, etc. I actually find it kind of a pain to have to switch back and forth between touch screen and regular controls. My point is that the system could have easily been made without the touch screen and it wouldn't be that drastically different. Now, the second screen on the other hand is a great addition that does make the system different.

But if the second screen was not a touchscreen, then you wouldn't have had Trauma Center, Kirby, Brain Training, Meteos, FtM, etc., which are some the best games for the system.

Your problems with games mixing in touchscreen and standard controls are, well, your problems. There is no mistaking that the 2nd screen being a touchscreen is what makes the DS stand out from other sytems - more than a 2nd screen alone at least.

[botticus]

I didn't say it had to be the central feature. Where do you use the stylus in Mario Kart at all? I've gotten gold trophies on every circuit and I'm yet to put my stylus on the screen.

Menu selection? ;)

Nah, I thought you used it, or could use it, with your items, but I haven't played it in a while so I'm probably just making things up.

[Reality's Fringe]

I like Nintendo, I taint gon' lie. There are a few simple reasons why I like them best as of right now, and trust what they're doing:

1. Durability. Yeah, yeah, this is debatable, but for me:
NES-Works (got it for my birthday back in 1990)
SNES-works (got it back in 92-93)
GBA-Works (Soaked in rain)
N64-works (got at launch, spilled copuntless drinks on it, stepped on it
twice)
Gamecube-works (posted a thread about when I dropped it two stories onto
concrete)
DS- Works - (no damage yet)

My non Nintendo systems:
Genesis-dead
PSX- DRE
PS2- DRE
Xbox-DRE

Maybe I just got some bad systems, but for me it's always been Nintendo's systems that last.

2. The DS was a good idea. Everyone thought it was going to be gimmicky and shitty, but look at it now. MY DS is probably my favorite system right now. This gives me more confidence in the Wii.

3. I like Nintendo games. the fact that I own mostly 1st party games for the GC doesn't speak ill of the system, it speaks highly of Nintendo's ability as a gamemaker. The fact that after all of these "rehashes" I'm still excited about the new Mario speaks volumes. Of course they could put the games on the Ps3, but why would I want that? Why would I want to pay $600 to play Mario when I can spend $200 for the same thing?

The fact is, a straight power battle won't accomplish anything. It's bringing a relatively new way to play that will get me excited about other games besides Nintendo's, and that my friends is a big accomplishment.

[Who's The Twitch Now?]

I admittedly haven't read everything after the first page, so excuse me if I'm being redundant. I agree with everybody, especially Strell; You are using juvenile, meaningless excuses and arguments to prove to yourself and us that your opinions are infallible. They aren't. No one's are. But the point of having an opinion is to make it VALID, not forcably inarguable.

I also think you are once again showing great hypocritical tendencies by only focusing on what Nintendo has done wrong, and not even mentioning the other problems that will most likely end the PS3's lifespan and are already hurting the 360 (though there is still demand for it). I mentioned these in the other thread you used these same arguments in, and all of them are worse than a mistake about a headphone jack.

For instance, one of the main reasons I DIDN'T buy a PS2 or Xbox at launch was due to the fact that they HAD DVD players. Bad ones. By the time the 3 major systems came out, most families had a DVD player, or two. Why should I be forced to pay another 100 bucks for an inferior version of something I already have? People were upset that the Gamecube didn't have a DVD player, but if it had, there's a very good chance Nintendo would have died in this generation. Frankly, with all the bootlegging of games for the Xbox and PS2, I'm amazed they didn't get into Dreamcast-type trouble. That's why Nintendo made the mini-discs; to save themselves.

Also, the argument, "Why didn't they get more exclusive games, and why didn't they get the games the PS2 and XBox got?" is so far out of Nintendo's control I'm amazed you would even consider it valid. Besides the previously-stated financial reasons, the Gamecube lost 3rd party support because of the idiotic notion that "Nintendo is for kids." Okay. This is a clear-cut case of consumer influence: This idea gets out, with little to no evidence to support it, and suddenly developers don't want to make their shooters and GTAs and M-rated games for the Gamecube, because they don't think it will sell. It was something that very nearly killed the Gamecube. And it is a miracle we're getting the Wii.

[jer7583]

Here's some of my rebuttals.

They've lost tons of 3rd party support. EA -

Does any nintendo fan really give a shit about EA? They still bring the majority of their games over to the GameCube anyway. All they've done is half ass titles on the DS, because to them the PSP is an easier PS2 port device. I say let them have the downgraded PS2 games. DS games are more original titles.

Dual screen is a Gimmick... and the DS doesnt have enough titles that fully support the touch screen.

-I don't know what you expect, but if you think the DS is a gimmick and there aren't enough good titles, nintendo must need to do something fucking amazing to impress you, because things like Trauma Center, Phoenix Wright, Ouendan, Brain Age.. etc. all have impressed the heck out of me and millions of others.

Mario Party is retarded, and nintendo has focued attention on that... and not they're highest selling gamecube game, Smash Brothers.

Mario Party is so much fun with 4 people. Smash Brothers is better, but i'm glad that they haven't had tons of sequels and spinoffs to Smash, because theres such a dedicated fanbase that really delves deep into the fighting engine and new things are still being discovered today. Tier lists are always changing, and new strategies for all kinds of characters are still being found. SSBM is not a game that needs a sequel, it has that kind of longevity.

All the mario parties are kind of rediculous though. Something's gotta pay the bills, and all the kidlets that line up for each new one is helping pay for Wii development, think of it that way.

Metroid has been losing and regaining powers since the 80's, another story PLEASE.

That "story" of losing and regaining powers has been a pretty consistent theme through many game franchises.. played any of the recent castlevanias? Apparently the complete change from a 2D sidescroller to the best implementation of a truely immersive first person view and first person jumping ever wasn't enough.

Zelda will be cancelled for the gamecube, and only for Wii - YOU KNOW IT.

Nintendo has made no indication that the gamecube version won't happen. It IS a gamecube game, even on wii, it's a gamecube game on a Wii DVD with a few added controls. Nintendo isn't like sony, they don't pull things like that.

Only one SSB, Mario Kart & Mario game per console? Whats the point?

If they rushed out shitty versions of these franchises like they do with mario party, we'd all be complaining. As it stands, i'll take one or two quality entries per generation.

Wheres all the fighters, RPGs or Shmups?
Fighters- SSBM
RPGs- Paper Mario/Mario & Luigi
Shmups- i dunno, but shmups are real fucking boring to me so go to the dreamcast for those or something.

Why doesnt Nintendo pay companies for exclusive titles like MS and Sony does?

Maybe nintendo feels their money is better spent with internal development of quality titles and partnerships with 3rd parties like namco, sega, retro studios, silicon knights (in the past) and with establishing new studios like sora for SSBB. Nintendo doens't have the kind of money MS and Sony do to influence developers. It's just the hard truth of it.

Super Mario Bros. 3 is one of the top selling games of all time... why not release a 3d Mario with the same ideas that made that one so inventive?

How can you complain that Metroid has been too similar thoughout the series and THEN go on to complain about how Mario has changed and isn't the same as Super Mario Bros 3?

Squaresoft held up the Snes, WTF? Why isnt Nintendo on their hands and knees getting them back?

Maybe they realize like the rest of us that square sucks now.

No Nintendo Tetris for the Gamecube?

Considering how bad the DS one was maybe that is a good thing.

Why does Star Fox suck now?

Because namco was fucking idiots and made the majority of the game be on the fucking ground. This is goddamned starfox STAR FOX. Like as in a fox in the stars, not a fox driving a tank and running around with shitty 3rd person shooter controls. Fuck. I was real pissed about starfox armada too.

Mario needs to stop play sports, and release a good game.

I don't know about you, but i've played hours of multiplayer Mario Golf, Strikers, and Baseball, with Strikers being the best ever. I really love Mario Strikers.

Nintendo games lack replayability now. Even flagship titles dont have hours of finding items in them anymore.

That's what rare did, not nintendo. Rare was the one that had you running all over the goddamned planet finding bird feathers and used band aids and crap in their shitty games. Fuck rare.

Why not just kill the gamecube? Why even bother to sell it still, if you havent done anything for it in a year or two?

Pikmin 2, Fire Emblem, Super Paper Mario, Zelda: TP, Super Mario Strikers, Timesplitters Future Perfect, Prince of Persia Two Thrones, Alien Hominid.. there's been a ton of good stuff released for the Cube, if you bother to look and try some of them. Pikmin 2 alone is better than 90% of what gets released on the PS2/Xbox.

What happened to EA?
I don't know what you mean here.. most every major EA release is on gamecube. And EA has committed to at least 10 titles on Wii.

If the GBA SP, is what the GBA should of been all along, and the DS lite is what the DS should of been all along, then should I just not buy a Wii until its fixed too?

Nintendo hasn't redesigned a home console since the SNES, and even the NES/SNES redesigns came REALLY late in their lifespan where it was more of a budget release, rather than a second coming of the hardware. I don't understand this fear that we'll see a Wii redesign. I don't understand a lot of your concerns with nintendo.

I love the gamecube. It's the system that always gets use when friends come over just to chill or have a few drinks. Wario Ware Party Games alone is enough to have a kickass night at home with friends. Maybe you should just stick to PS2 and its single player crap.

[Mookyjooky]

First off, this is a blatent attempt at a flamewar. Period. There's no other way to get around that. Had I started an anti-PS3 topic, I'd bet it would be closed, as I'm labeled a harsh fanboy.
Well, you kinda are a harsh fanboy, as this post shows... but I still think you're cool. =)

Basically, its probably not a flamewar, because I've mentioned that I personally LOVE NINTENDO. I'm just annoyed about how they seem to do things now.

Sure the future looks bright, with the Wii on the horizon and all.. but Nintendo's future as ALWAYS looked bright, and it seems to pretty much end up in failure.

I thought using the cart for the 64 was great, because everyone hated loading times... turns out... the cart wasnt big enough to store good music, good image files for bitmaps or anything. It was only big enough to store plain looking 3d games that bled all over the screen in neon green and pink...

Secondly, we should delete total fanboy posts on both sides in this thread - the Ninty ones and the anti-Ninty ones, as I know each faction will be dutifully represented without logic, but just a bunch of rhetoric and bad spelling. The "NIntendo is kiddie/gimmicky" posts need to be removed just as much as the "Nintendo roxx0rs your mom at night."
So far, the only fanboy post I've read is yours and maybe Doom Gaze... who actually are the only ones calling me a fanboy for discussing conserns about Nintendo.

Third, you've made this topic with an express mentality beforehand. In other words, even if people refute your obviously bad logic, you'll just fire back with "yea whatever" comments later on down the line. Regardless, lots of people (myself included) will respond anyway. It's like hating a movie before you see it.
I've taken the time to type out long drawn out comments to people and their conserns without slamming them so far... whats your basis on this? I'm not slamming the Wii, as I'm slamming Nintendo's past on preparing for the Wii. I did the same thing when I was thinking of buying the Sega Saturn after Sega screwed me on the 32X.

Fourth, my guess is that eventually Juka won't respond anymore to this topic OR use a "haha I gotcha!" sort of tactic. That's what I'd do if I were in the same (hilariously embarassing) scenario.
Why should I be embarassed for having an opinion not like 85% of CAG? I still have my own... I would think you would be embarassed for being the first one to look silly in this thread. Which you'll probably turn into a flame war now because you lowered the bar now.

Now let's eliminate some errors in your post:
4) Lost EA? Because they haven't devoted an entire studio to Wii games?
I'm talking about present tense, not future tense... I'm not clairvoiant... I can only assume the future by basing it on the past. Personally, I think EA's involvement is only to get release titles out, as thats the most profitable time.

5) Wrong at least halfway. Show me Meteos or Canvas Curse on another system, please.
Thats two games that fully use the screen as it was ment to be. I'm sure the DS has more than that.

9) To not oversaturate, which you'd be whining about if they did do that.

I said a sequel, not a double-dipping ass parade like Mario Party... just a sequel. It's been 5 years. I dont remember bitching when Majoras Mask came out.

10) Smash Bros, Paper Mario, Ikaruga, all AA to AAA titles. I will concede it lacks the number Sony has, but it's on par if not better than MS.
You may be right, but Ikaruga is a DC game... and Smash Brothers is not a AAA title... that game wouldnt sell near that amount on a system with 3rd party title compitition. Its a button masher. You got me on Paper Mario, good game... but I really could be happy with a non-mario game at this point.

12) They do, but then those companies turn around and port them anyway.
Resident Evil 4 is the only one I can think of, and the Gamecube was a dead system anyways. If Nintendo didnt abandon the gamecube a year before, I'm sure Capcom wouldnt of bitched out.

14) Mario 64
You're right about that... I feel silly about that. Good catch.

20) No profit in it? Nope. Not yet, which is why Wii has it.
If you dont think that MS isnt making hand over fist you're crazy... and the hard part is over. Will the Wii have anything even close to XBL? I guess we'll see...

23) Hmmm, yet they all sell well....Hmmm.


24) Wow, I love how you show contradiction to 23 not one fucking number later.
Not everyone owns 3 consoles, Hmmmm... no other sports games.... hmmmm....

Also, I know you think I'm dissing you're favorite company of all time, but no need to get all pissy. I dont understand blind fanboyism unless you have stock in the company. If thats the case, I guess proceed...

28) They did, and even when they are multi platform, they sell best on the GC. This is a problem with Sega being run by morons, not a Nintendo issue. Same reason Namco was idiotic for releasing Soul Calibur 3 exclusive to PS2 when it sold best on the GC.
That was cause people wanted to play as link, nothing more. Control sucked and graphics were better on the xbox... it was cause of Link.

29) Did they do that with the N64, Gamecube, or SNES? A cosmetic redesign is not the same as adding light. So this is all invalid.
Cosmetic redesign is still annoying, as they always release the one you want after you buy garbage purple.

Let's also scan for redundancy:
1, 2
3, 15
9, 17, 18
12, 22
4, 27
1, 2, 29
I'll apply the changes... thanks for your efforts.

The second you call Metroid "blocky" and use that as a reason for disliking the game, you might as well just jam lit cigarettes on your balls. This is why it's retarded to argue with you on anything in this post for the most part - you're just going to handslap it away. "Metroid is blocky." Wow. Why even ask us to name games if you're going to use third grade logic to dismiss them?
Also said it was slow and clunky. Sorry, I would of written a 8 page dissertation on it in shakespearean manner, if I really gave a shit and thought you're actually read it. Just wanted to keep it simple.

On the flipside, why don't we talk about what Nintendo has done right? Why not talk about what Sony and MS have done wrong? If you're going to be narrow minded about things to bitch about, you should be prepared to explore counterpoint, but my guess is that you're not.
Sounds great, being that this is about Nintendo, feel free to open a MS and Sony one. It's taking alot out of me just to keep up with the Nintendo one.

Responses to responses:
Virtual Console was announced and hinted at long before XBLA was ever touted as a main feature.
Emulation, which is really what it is. Is as old as the SNES.

The Wii wasn't awesome? Those six hour lines and universal praise from developers to reporters must all be lies from Nintendo! Get your tin foil hats!
I heard it was new and innovative... not that it was amazing. People want something different, no wonder they say in line for 6 hours. I heard that the sencitivity was too high, the cursor was annoying, and that they were Gamecubes with attachments... but I didnt go, so I left it to a sentance long.

A third person Metroid would be shit, I'd guess. The whole point of the FPA idea is that you see through Samus's eyes but still can pull off screw attacks and things. It could not have been handled better as a half ass PN03 ripoff.

PNO3 was shit, think more DMC. Platforming in Metroid is back.

SoC = Zelda? Are you high? Link would knock the shit out of those guys. Boohoo that your opinion somehow is representative of a "failure" by Nintendo.
Well, Wind Waker or N64 link would of... not the NES or SNES Link. I like my underdogs to be underdogs... not to have various equipment that you'll use a handful of times.

You bitch and moan about all these "wrong" things Nintendo does when half of them are opinion, the other half are redundant, and a fraction are spot on. And then you dismiss the fact that Nintendo is the only profitable game company at this time, has been in the business for 100+ years (25 or so years if you only count video games), and act like they ought to be dead. They aren't Atari, they never have been, they never will be.

And I hope that if by some cosmic mistake that they do die, that they do not whore themselves out to another company to make games for. They've said they won't and I damn well hope they don't, just so everyone could bitch and piss and moan about how we get next to nothing new in the game arena except for GTA with a new color palette. People are so quick these days to act like Nintendo doesn't know what it is doing AND that they think they are so far gone that they should be put down, like they've got rabies or something. It's pathetic the amount of disrespect they get.

Have they been arrogant and made mistakes? Yes. But they are fucking running around saying shit like "we invented 3D." By comparison, Yamauchi stepped down and Nintendo has been receptive to outside help AND has humble people manning the show. They don't have fucker design men running around touting how "___ feature in our game is so fucking awesome you will cum in your pants." Instead they are basically saying "You should just try it out."

It sucks having to defend Nintendo from the baseless bullshit they get vollied at them half the time. No headphone port? Yes that's retarded. But "Omfg I want another Smash Bros?" That's bullshit.
I hate GTA, and urban games. I love the ideas Nintendo brings to the table, its just that the DS is the only thing thats panned out in years and that doesnt mean their out of the water yet. I enjoy the DS, but feel that the games are limited. I see the same for the Wii... but maybe I'm wrong, I sure hope so... I love nintendo.

Sorry to make you freak out, just pointing out the obvious that the bandwagon jumpers dont see. It's pointless to point out how awesome Nintendo is because of the "Wii"... because "Wii" dont have it yet... (pun, har har)

=)

[Strell]

I don't see how I'm freaking out if I answer a 2 page anti-Nintendo rant with a 2-page "that anti-Nintendo rant was teh sux." :p

[Mookyjooky]

fuckfuckfuckfuckFuckFuck
Fuck

[Mookyjooky]

I don't see how I'm freaking out if I answer a 2 page anti-Nintendo rant with a 2-page "that anti-Nintendo rant was teh sux." :p

First off, it wasnt anti-nintendo... re-read it. So far you've turned the what was once a fair even topic into a flamewar. You spent you're whole post talking shit to me, about how stupid I am, and making assumptions about what I'll do... but I never did any of that. I sure as hell, didnt get into retard lingo and say shit like "teh".

I was just saying that all of nintendo's licenses have blurred into the same vibe, and that they've been so focused on bringing you the next new thing, they've lost focus on bringing us what we really want. Good games.

I'll say it for the last time, I love nintendo. I just feel they've spread themselves too thin. It's not the 3rd party's fault that their Nintendo licensed game sucks, its Nintendo for not running it through Nintendo quality control. Nintendo used to have high standards, now they just take an "ok" game and slap Mario on it. Open your eyes.

If we keep buying their garbage, they'll keep selling it. I still have my Gamecube, GBA SP, Nintendo DS, NES, Sega Saturn and Dreamcast and my Xbox 360. I dont have a PS2, PSP or PC anymore. (Apple boy)

As you can see, I keep my Nintendo close... I just wish that Nintendo would release a good game. Something I cant live without. Like they used to.

[MarioColbert]

Dear MookyJooky (I shall refer to you henceforth as GrumpyMcGrumperson):



Finally, there is a post where people want to talk about Nintendo as an abstract concept. That is exactly what we need. But being that Strell has already beat me to the discussion of your content, I suppose I can help you argue your point better, by teaching you a couple of techniques.


Let's start with Ad Hominem approach, that you've indulged us with. You did well in your original post. But do take that strategy further. For example: "Since Nintendo have messed up the headphones port on the GBA SP, it so logically follows that everything they will make since then will be garbage." It will make people like Strell bleed from the eyes when they read your argumentation.


When asking questions like "why does StarFox sucks now?" or "Why don't they integrate Super Mario Bros. 3 stuff in a new 3D Mario?" I need you to be more pompous and act more like an ungrateful burden on the universe. At the moment, the questions act like something a child would ask, without much thought about things like what goes into game design, average cost of making a game, expected returns, business model, and other such "nonsense." You should, in fact, make it sound like making a video game involves a couple of months, and most of them are spent drinking martinis.


Make sure to contradict yourself more. You were doing well with asking them to make less sequels for Sports games while making MORE sequels to "main franchises," while also telling them that gameplay needs to be "reinvented," YET accusing Nintendo with concentrating too much on "hardware," and, despite their constant claims to attempt to reinvent games and gameplay BY reinventing the hardware, you bitch about all of those. Tell these forum nerds what's up. Say: "Me, Mr. GrumpyMcGrumperson, knows what's up, and knows what's the best. You all are kiddie n00bs."


Speaking of childishness, I applaud your good old re-introduction of "kiddie stuff" concept. I agree: we need more whore-killing, alien-shooting, drug-dealing, half-naked-woman-battling, curse-word-uttering, mother-fucking adult gameplay. I agree: adult content is defined with adult themes. Like smoking, drugs, gore, use of the word.. you know... F - blank - blank - UCK. If a game is made so that it can be enjoyed by a child, make sure to dismiss it even though it can be enjoyed by an adult too.


To sum it up, let's go over the basic forum rules:

1. Do not attempt to clean up, spell-check, or better your entry. Leave it just as is, after you've pulled it out of your asshole and onto the screen. Preserve the smell, it does a service to those who look for that sort of thing.
2. Use every logical fallacy imaginable, and state every argument of yours as if your opinion is somehow some illuminating truth.
3. Make sure to keep bitching about video games not being the way you want them to be. There may be others that have it worse than you, but let's not forget that this is an internet forum, and ego-centricity ought to be its' main ingredient.
4. Use an inflamattory thread title, like "Nintendo Fucked up" or "Logic 101," because it's bound to get a lot of responses, and will soon be the Moderator's "Top Picks" lists.
5. Call other people's post "overreactions" while being the initial poster of a 4-page list of complaints that was unprovoked and written on your own accord. Nobody would ever think of calling you an overinitiator. At worst, they will settle for loser, which is easily killed by calling them a bad name.

[Roufuss]

A person named MarioColbert, adding NOTHING to the conversation but just bashing the OP for stating his opinion about Nintendo?

Is it possible to believe I predicted such a thing before even clicking on the link?

NO. IMPOSSIBLE.

[Mookyjooky]

My favorite thing about this topic, is that all the people who attack me for my opinion... use "leet" language and curse at me.

So awesome.

I dont know they're ages, but I would assume they're too young to remember when Nintendo WAS the center of the gaming universe. Maybe that's why they're happy with getting the same 5 games over and over again.

Back in my day, Nintendo sequels were different games completely and you were in for a real treat all around. (Maybe except Zelda II)

I just think it's funny that the only ones accusing me of being a fanboy, are nintendo fanboys. The kind that are quick to blame Namco for making Starfox shitty, or blame Capcom for leaving a dead system, or everyone else for why Nintendo hasnt supported the Gamecube with a good game since Paper Mario 2.

So, fanboys... you've officially ruined this topic... I guess it can be closed now. We can all go back to saying fuck this, and fuck that and talking like leet H4X0rs.

Instead of voicing an opinion for a company you love, you love EVERYTHING they do... making them sell the same games over and over again... but it'll catch up to them. And creating a new hardware product every year will catch up to them as well.... dip too many times, and you end up like Sega.

I remember when this was a symbol of quality - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ee/Official_Nintendo_Seal_of_Quality_%28Original%29.j pg Now its justhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2a/Nintendo_Seal_of_Quality.pngcause the "Quality" is gone.

[MarioColbert]

A person named MarioColbert, adding NOTHING to the conversation but just bashing the OP for stating his opinion about Nintendo?

Oh, you mean that I didn't go into deep philosophy of whether or not Square was an asset to Nintendo during the SNES era? Or polluting this thread with abundant nonchalance over the verdict of opinion expressed about GameCube StarFox/Mario Sports games? Should have I explained why in most cases, nobody really cares about what some individual's opinion is about where Mario should go next? Or maybe point out that there is some O'Reily Factor-like editing of the game citations illustrating the point that there's only one "big mario" game, despite the fact that there are two Zelda titles, and two Metroids? Should I point out that the OP is grasping the straws when he accuses Nintendo of "redoing" the GameCube, when they release multiple color editions? I can't settle on "which one," because I only check this forum at work, and I only work 8 hours in a day.


Three pages into this "discussion" (and it's not a good one, because few good answers can come out of shitty questions, for an obvious exception go see Strell's post above) and you want "contributions" to what exactly? If you think my post isn't "topical enough," perhaps you could have prevented it from happening by posting your response a little bit higher... Say, as the second entry / 1st reply to this "ingenious" list of observations. Like this:

A person named MookyJooky, adding NOTHING to the conversation but just bashing the Nintendo for releasing their opinion about where videogames are ought to go?

I even left your original question mark in there, so that you know it's authentic.

[Strell]

Instead of voicing an opinion for a company you love, you love EVERYTHING they do... making them sell the same games over and over again... but it'll catch up to them. And creating a new hardware product every year will catch up to them as well.... dip too many times, and you end up like Sega.


Beyond the fact that I could chastize you for other parts of this post, as well as for the fact that you're doing exactly what I suggested in my first post, I have a real, real issue with this paragraph.

In fact, I'm pretty sure anyone who knows anything about Nintendo would take these words the most egregiously, as they actually call Nintendo akin to Sega.

But then I think about that - comparing Nintendo to Sega - and I realize that this entire thread is a total joke. The entire thing being argued is coming from someone who is comparing the most successful game company of all time to the one that hung its dick up years ago.

Juka, I know you are smarter than that, but I'm tired of bullshit like this. If you're going to attempt to make sense, do it better next time.

[Who's The Twitch Now?]

Briefly, Mooky, I have to state that I am personally impressed by your consistancy; Once again, you have completely ignored my post, as you did in the previous thread. I would expect a half-hearted rebuttle, or at the very least a defensive statement, but I suppose I overestimated you. Touche.

[Mookyjooky]

List of Fresh Nintendo Licenses...

Basically, new licenses and gametypes... I count sidescrolling Mario once, but I'll count Mario Golf as a different gametype. Even some N64 games based on the 3D graphical upgrade. Removed sports games, as even though they have some minor mini-games...tennis is still tennis if it has Mario in it or not. Cut out rehashes from other systems as well. I left in racing games as they tend to have their own rules.

My point of this, is that they have tons of licenses, yet, they release Mario Party to infinity. When is Nintendo gonna make something new, or at least use an old licenses.

Arcade:
Mario Bros.
Donkey Kong
Killer Instinct (w/Rare)

Nintendo Entertainment System:
Balloon Fight
Barker Bill's Trick Shooting
Clu Clu Land
Donkey Kong
Dr. Mario
Duck Hunt
Excitebike
Faxanadu
Gumshoe
Gyromite
Hogan's Alley
Ice Climber
Kid Icarus
The Legend of Zelda
Mario Bros.
Metroid
Short Order/Eggsplode!!
StarTropics
Stack-Up
Super Mario Bros. Series
Tetris
Urban Champion
Wario's Woods
Wild Gunman
Wrecking Crew
Zelda II: The Adventure of Link
Zoda's Revenge: StarTropics II

Super Nintendo:
Battle Clash
Donkey Kong Country Series
EarthBound
F-Zero
Kirby Series
Mario Paint
Pilotwings
Star Fox
Super Mario Kart
Super Mario World
Super Metroid
Super Scope 6 Series
Tinstar
Yoshi's Safari

Nintendo 64:
Donkey Kong 64 (New game type, give it to "N")
The Legend of Zelda Series (New game type, give it to "N")
Mario Party
Paper Mario
Pokémon
Super Mario 64 (New game type, give it to "N")
Wave Race 64
Super Smash Bros.

Gamecube:
Animal Crossing
Battalion Wars
Chibi-Robo!
Custom Robo
Donkey Konga (New game type, give it to "N")
Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance
Geist
Luigi's Mansion (New game type, give it to "N")
Odama
Pikmin
Wario World

Wii:
Disaster: Day of Crisis
ExciteTruck
Project H.A.M.M.E.R.
Wii Music Orchestra (tech demo?)

[Roufuss]

Faxandu isn't Nintendo I think... I think they just published it over here.

[Mookyjooky]

Briefly, Mooky, I have to state that I am personally impressed by your consistancy; Once again, you have completely ignored my post, as you did in the previous thread. I would expect a half-hearted rebuttle, or at the very least a defensive statement, but I suppose I overestimated you. Touche.
I of course am one person, and personally... everyone said what you said already and said it better... I actually stopped reading your post when you wrote this.

"You are using juvenile, meaningless excuses and arguments to prove to yourself and us that your opinions are infallible."

I dont like people making assumptions of me, and you're missing the point completely.

The fact that you made another post to bitch about how I didnt get to you is nothing short of childish.

Also, I dont know what other thread you're talking about, I havent left this one in hours.

[SMMM]

ummm....doesn't Hudson develop the Mario Party games and not Nintendo? Meaning that Nintendo spends relatively little time on the Mario Party games themselves? Thus, your accusation that they're spending too much time on Mario Party instead of other franchises completely invalid?

Of course, I could be wrong....

Edit:

Hey, waddya know. Mario Party 1-7 all developed by Hudson Soft, and only Published by Nintendo. I believe I heard somewhere that Nintendo gave them the license for it and Hudson is trying to churn out as many as they can before it runs out. Also...

Super Mario Strikers - Next Level Games
Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour - Camelot Software (A second party I believe)
Mario Power Tennis - Camelot again

None of which are developed by ANY of Nintendo's main 1st party in-house studios. Quit complaining, having them is better than not having them.


The fact that you made another post to bitch about how I didnt get to you is nothing short of childish.


I'd say you ignoring his counter-opinion completely would be more childish than him trying to stand up to you more than once so that his counter-opinion may be read and countered yet again....He's trying to enter a discussion and you don't want him in, like it's some sort of secret club. Now that's childish.

[dastly75]

Nintendo games are still fun and I shall keep paying $$ for them. I pay money for fun. I play games that are fun. Yay me!

*bitch bitch bitch* thats all I ever hear from dem hating fanboys

[Blitz]

I'd say you ignoring his counter-opinion completely would be more childish than him trying to stand up to you more than once so that his counter-opinion may be read and countered yet again....He's trying to enter a discussion and you don't want him in, like it's some sort of secret club. Now that's childish.

Amen. If you don't like the way Nintendo is going don't buy their products. It's really simple.

[2Fast]

Amen. If you don't like the way Nintendo is going don't buy their products. It's really simple.

God this is the worst argument; I hate having to continually hear it on these boards whenever criticism is given.

He likes Nintendo (a lot, in fact) and wants to buy their products. He wants to buy them (as do I), but wants to be assured that they don't continue their continual decline (in the console market, at least).

I wish we could go back to page two, where there was at least somewhat intelligent and adult discourse.

[botticus]

God this is the worst argument; I hate having to continually hear it on these boards whenever criticism is given.

He likes Nintendo (a lot, in fact) and wants to buy their products. He wants to buy them (as do I), but wants to be assured that they don't continue their continual decline (in the console market, at least).

I wish we could go back to page two, where there was at least somewhat intelligent and adult discourse.
How is that a bad argument? It's called a boycott. That's how you show displeasure with a company. Sales are the only thing they notice. You're saying "Look Nintendo, I don't like what you're doing, so I'm not giving you any money. If you change what you are doing, I will give you my money again." If that's not what the presenters of this argument in this thread are trying to do, I'm not sure why we're talking. Unless you hope that internet chatting will cause them to change their ways.

Frankly I think a lot of the complaints in this thread are moot until we see the beginning of the next generation. How third party support, new IPs, old IPs, etc will all come together is unknown. Maybe miraculously all your concerns are wiped away. Maybe not. But as it is, we're bitching back and forth about the current gen problems when it's just about over.

[2Fast]

How is that a bad argument? It's called a boycott. That's how you show displeasure with a company. Sales are the only thing they notice. You're saying "Look Nintendo, I don't like what you're doing, so I'm not giving you any money. If you change what you are doing, I will give you my money again." If that's not what the presenters of this argument in this thread are trying to do, I'm not sure why we're talking. Unless you hope that internet chatting will cause them to change their ways.
It's just a lame last-ditch cop-out thing to say and yet people think they are so smug by saying one of the most obvious things there is.

"I don't like some of things that Nintendo is doing and have my doubts about their future products based on their recent history (with the Gamecube mainly). I still have love for the company and want to make sure that they're heading in the right direction. Here is a list of things I feel that the company is/has been doing wrong, care to have an adult discussion about them?"

"Well then don't buy their stuff." - Completely stupid and unrelated response.

Boycotts are a good way to tell a company you are displeased (thanks for telling me that, by the way, I'm twelve years old). However, criticism also works, and that's what's going on here.

It just seems like no one can criticize someone/something without another person adding that lame argument that everyone already realizes to the mix. No one also realizes that you can criticize something and *still* like it and enjoy it. How many times does Mooky have to say he's a Nintendo fan?

[schuerm26]

I gotta disagree with two of these, although this entire forum is merely opinion of perspective.

The Virtual Console is a great idea, as Nintendo has wanted a way to kill both emulation and the game collecting market for ages.

In my opinion the virtual console isn't going to do either. Why? You'll still have to pay some sort of fee, be it per game or monthly. Emulators and Roms you don't. Also, the actual game collectors (not people who just want to play the old games) are more about have a physical copy of the game, not just being able to play it.

[wageslave]

The thing that I hated most for a long time about Nintendo is the faulty ass blinking light original NES back in the day. That is one thing I'll never forgive them for. When you were a middle school kid back in 1990 or whatever $150 was a lot of money, and when your system started blinking instead of playing games after a year it sucked. There was no Internet to tell us how to fix it and it was easier to buy a new control deck than to get mommy and daddy to send it back for overpriced repairs. they should have been class actioned and forced to trade in our front loaders for top loaders for free or cheap (<$20).

That said, I'm not paying 400-600 bones on a system so the Wii will most likely be my first next gen purchase. At this point I'm most interested in being able to download the old stuff to play and the backward compatibility.

And to Namco - the Cube version of Soul Calibur II was the best selling but we didn't get the sequal? Fuck you! Just pay the damn money to license Link again you know you'd have made a truckload of money.

And here's to hoping that we get 'Panzer Dragoon Falkor' on the Wii, along with '19th Century Naval Ship Simulator MMORPG' and a 'Star Trek Ship Commander MMORPG'. Thats what I'd like to play! :-)

[botticus]

It's just a lame last-ditch cop-out thing to say and yet people think they are so smug by saying one of the most obvious things there is.

"I don't like some of things that Nintendo is doing and have my doubts about their future products based on their recent history (with the Gamecube mainly). I still have love for the company and want to make sure that they're heading in the right direction. Here is a list of things I feel that the company is/has been doing wrong, care to have an adult discussion about them?"

"Well then don't buy their stuff." - Completely stupid and unrelated response.

It just seems like no one can criticize someone/something without another person adding that lame argument that everyone already realizes to the mix. No one also realizes that you can criticize something and *still* like it and enjoy it. How many times does Mooky have to say he's a Nintendo fan?
Perhaps it's just me, but it's hard to tell how Mooky likes anything Nintendo has done in the recent decade. It might be easier to have a discussion if maybe he and others presented things that they thought Nintendo has done RIGHT lately. Then there could be more dialog along the lines of "Well, I like how Nintendo has done this with x franchise. Wouldn't it make sense to treat y franchise in a similar fashion?" When you criticize every Nintendo franchise (namely Mario, Zelda, Metroid), every business decision, and every product they have developed or been associated with over the last two generations, I'm not sure where you expect the discussion to lead because clearly a large number of people disagree with you (based both on this thread and on number of units sold).

Boycotts are a good way to tell a company you are displeased (thanks for telling me that, by the way, I'm twelve years old).
But thanks for responding in an adult fashion! :D

[2Fast]

'Star Trek Ship Commander MMORPG'. Thats what I'd like to play! :-)

That would rule! Here's hoping :pray:

(a 360 version would be nice at least)

[seanr1221]

I'll just throw in my own 2 cents here.

Nintendo used to be my system of choice, but now I prefer xbox. I switched because of how online gaming was handled last generation. I'm not saying I don't like Nintendo, it's just chances are I'll play my 360 more than my Wii someday.

Yea Nintendo makes some mistakes, but then again so do all the companies. As long as a company is putting out games you like, then just buy them and enjoy them.

[2Fast]

But thanks for responding in an adult fashion! :D

Sorry for being an ass. You really are a great CAG, I just don't like it when I'm seemingly being talked down to.

[botticus]

Sorry for being an ass. You really are a great CAG, I just don't like it when I'm seemingly being talked down to.
Nah, that's why I put the smiley on there ;) I didn't intend my previous post to be taken as such, but that's my fault.

[b3b0p]

Sorry, I couldn't stop my fingers from firing off their rocket launchers after reading about 1/3 of your list forcing me to start typing before I finish reading.

Anyway,

I like the original GBA form factor by far the best. I played so many hours on it. The screen was kind of crummy, but it was fun! The whole point of the blasted thing.

I wish EA would go out of business and put Burnout on the auction block.

I agree about the DS gimmick dual/touch screen thing. I wish it was non-flip single screen, in fact, I wish it was the original GBA with 4 buttons, 2 shoulders and the screen (non-touch is fine).

Why does every good game need a sequel? Good games don't need sequels. They are fun and continue to be fun even after time and lots of play.

Many people, like me don't give a flying fuck about online games and don't want them. Subscriptions and paying for virtual bits of data instead of some sort of media doesn't sit well with me and I refuse to contribute towards it popularity. When Nintendo does Xbox live I quit keeping up with the new school gaming stuff and stay with the previous generations.

I find the Mario Sports games more fun than the any of the other sports games out. Sorry, I just do. Madden blows and always had. It was fun on the Genesis, to a degree (more so then current Madden). However, this is coming from someone who still plays hours of Tecmo Super Bowl almost daily.

Technology improves and such items become cheaper over time. Live with it. The original DS was fine and still is. It's not broken because a new model came out.

The GBA SP breaks my hands, the micro is where it's at for me, nearly perfect.

Seriously, Dr. Mario sequel? Get a life. It's a puzzle game. Have you conquered it yet? Does the game even finish? I'd sure like to know. If you haven't, why do you want a sequel if you haven't finished it yet?

[evilmax17]

People that don't see the value in stylus games haven't played Osu Tatake Ouendan (which is understandable given that it's import-only).

Wait until Elite Beat Agents comes out, then talk. I've never played a more fun and innovative hand-held game.

[Who's The Twitch Now?]

I'd like to thank those who saw fit to debunk Mooky's "Childish" critique. It says something when more than one person sticks up for someone when they were ridiculously ridiculed. Praise alliteration.

Anyway, I think I'm done with the "You think I'M childish, when YOU'RE the one who..." arguments. We're here to discuss gaming, and that's what I'll try to do. As one last note on the subject, I'm sorry if my comment insulted you, but there's very little reason there to not even read my argument. Anyway, peace.

It's good that you saw fit to change the original post, Mooky. That shows that you listened to at least the criticism about the redundancy. It's obvious you want to like Nintendo, but are having serious doubts. That's fine. What I'm trying to show you is that you have very little reason to dislike Nintendo's choices.

In addition to the previously-stated fact about your main "Rehash" concerns being developed by other companies, some of the things you're asking for are pretty picky. Many people want a Kid Icarus sequel (besides the Game Boy one), and we may get it. But for now, we'll have to contend ourselves with the original on Virtual Console and Pit in Smash Bros.: Brawl. I'd have to look over your list again, but this is just as an example.

But let's finally look at the things Nintendo has done right. When the Gamecube started lacking, they dropped the price to 99 bucks with a game. For a few months, it sold 4 times each the amount of PS2s and Xboxs, if I'm not mistaken.

Sure, Zelda has taken a long time to come out, but it simply wasn't ready in its form a year ago. In fact, my one concern with it was the four-legged gameplay, which has never worked well in a game. This is what they spent 6 months fixing, along with adding several new dungeons to make the longest game Nintendo has ever produced. Sure, we're talking about a game that isn't out yet, but it will be out, and it will be nothing short of a flagship title.

You say they abandoned the Gamecube. Perhaps. I personally sold my Gamecube to get some extra cash until the Wii comes out, but there are several games that have come out recently and a few that I want that haven't yet. It's not the focus, but it's not abandoned.

The Wii is looking great. The controller is innovative to most, whether you choose to believe so or not, and the library looks very, very strong, even at launch. I can honestly say that there are 5 or 6 games that I "Must" have very soon after launch, whereas there wasn't very much I was even interested in at the 360's launch, and even now, 70 bucks is a LOT to pay for a single game, no matter how appealing. Nintendo's doing their best to keep game costs down, and they're offering a lot of incentive. Do you think we could play Duck Hunt 2 without the Zapper attachment? Of course, but adding that little slipcase to the package makes it much more nostalgic and appealing for the potential buyer.

The following is purely a dream, but it is, at the very least, possible. It is what I can possibly see Nintendo offering as an "Ultimate" package for the Wii's launch:

Wii system
2 Wii Remotes, 2 Nunchuks, 2 Classic Controllers, 2 Zapper Attachments
1 Memory unit (of some kind or another)
1 Free Virtual Console download
Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros., Super Mario World, Super Mario 64, Virtual Console downloads.
1 1st-party-developed game.
Total Cost = $300 + whatever else you want, +tax.

Now, as I said, it's a long-shot. But, it serves a purpose, because here's the absolute bare minimum for the PS3 launch:

PS3 60 GB system = $600
1 extra controller = $50?
1 game = I'll say $60, but it may be more than that.
1 Memory Unit = $30.
Total cost = $850, with nothing else.

That's a huge difference, and it's already been shown in user polls that about 75% of gamers want just the Wii, and about 12% want just the PS3. If no one else bought anything else at launch, and if my estimates proved true, that would mean that out of 100 buyers, Nintendo would get $22,500. Sony would get approximately $10,200. Sony would also lost money because the PS3's hardware is too expensive to charge ONLY $600 for. This is what Nintendo is doing right - They are making a MASSIVELY appealing console, which is cheap to produce and develop for, and making substancially more, hypothetically, than the PS3, at launch.

Sony's biggest problem is assuming we'll all buy the PS3. We won't. They are assuming it will be MORE successful than the PS2, and not everybody bought that even at $300. It's ludicrous, and it shows poor, poor market strategy.

[Mookyjooky]

I'd say you ignoring his counter-opinion completely would be more childish than him trying to stand up to you more than once so that his counter-opinion may be read and countered yet again....He's trying to enter a discussion and you don't want him in, like it's some sort of secret club. Now that's childish.

What the hell are you talking about? He made a post, and because I didnt comment to it in 45 mins or less my topic is forfit because I ignored him? I didnt ignore him, I chose to just move on to the person who stuck to the topic and didnt start out the post verbally attacking me personally.

He's going on about ignoring him, but I'm not... I just didnt get to his yet... Him talking shit to me isnt my fault either.

I cant stop him from entering the disscussion if I wanted, its a free topic... he's just talking shit to me and attacking me personally to flame and make the topic pointless because I didnt rebuttal something everyone said on the first page.

[epobirs]

Taking them in order:

1) I got plenty of use from my original GBA and still have it for GBC games. I rarely had a problem finding a proper light source I could position myself by for play. It was the first GameBoy model I bothered to buy. The B&W models were far harder to use and didn't merit a purchase. The few early GameBoy games I really wanted to play I used on the Super GameBoy. At the time of its release the GBA was the best that could be done while not exceeding the $99 upper limit on a GameBoy price. Nintendo sold many millions of that model and by all indications the satisfaction level was far higher than the decibels of the whining.

When reduced cost allowed, Nintendo introduce the SP with screen-lighting and rechargeable battery. Since I had already gotten extensive use from my GBA with an added battery pack that also made it fit my hands better, I didn't feel at all ripped off. If the SP had been available at the time of my GBA purchase it would have been at least $50 more and I still would have gone for the less expensive model.

2) Square contributed much to Super Famicom sales but hardly did anything for the Super Nintendo. Every single game Square published for the SNES put together wouldn't make it into the Top 20 bestselling US SNES games. Even in worldwide SNES/SF sales, a Square title doesn't come up until the 12th position in this listing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bestselling_computer_and_video_games

Shocking to some but Square didn't become a big mainstream brand in the US until FFVII. US sales on Nintendo platforms had been such that half the FF series never saw release here on their original platforms.

So NOA didn't have that much cause for anxiety of Square's decision to favor CD-ROM and NCL likely thought they could win them back since the real effect of the PlayStation was not yet known. Up until then, consoles dependent on CD-ROM had been failures. Square was a big third party publisher but not the biggest by far and only one of many. Without any way of knowing how much the RPG genre would grow in the US on the PlayStation, Square was far from Nintendo's biggest worry when it came to lining up third parties for the N64.

3) Yet they continue to make mountains of net revenue. Nintendo stopped being as concerned with third party support when they lost their stranglehold on third party publishers in the SNES era. They loved it then because their contracts made them the only game in town and they didn't have to compete for third party support. Instead they could do all kinds of stuff that some game publishers with long memories still resent. For instance, if NOA wanted to pump up the quarterly results, they'd tell a company that their cartridge production run would only happen as scheduled if they upped their order by 100K units. That meant an easy $Million in royalty fees that were almost pure profit. When Sony came in with media costs and ordering schedule that were the stuff of dreams compared to dealing with Nintendo, there were companies that had wanted to tell Old Man Yamauchi to go fuck himself for a decade that finally had their chance.

Nintendo's current third party support issues can be traced all the way back to the mid-80s.

BTW, EA released several GameCube titles in 2006 and has announced six games for the Wii.

4) Works fine for me. Does every game make good use of it? No. But if that were the requirement the DS either wouldn't exist or would have a very small library. I don't expect every major feature of a platform to be supported by every title. In the case of the DS there are more than enough games that do make good use of the dual screens to qualify the concept. On the SNES only a fraction of the games made good use of the much touted Mode 7 features. Did this mean that Mode 7 was a worthless gimmick or did it just mean it didn't have a role to play in every game and the abundance of multiplatform crap movie and TV licenses are unlikely to make good use of any one platform.

5) Mario Party does an excellent business. Every game in the series has moved well over a million units and several of them have exceeded two million sold. You have to pay me a goodly wage to play Madden but that doesn't alter the fact that it makes a mint every year. The Mario Party series all by itself gave reason to have four controller ports on the GameCube. Nintendo has to love it when a game not only sells well but encourages the purchase of a full set of controllers.

Besides, Mario Party is a second party effort. If it weren't for the Nintendo license it would be Bomberman Party, perhaps with Bonk and the Adventure Island guy (Master Higgins IIRC) and some other Hudson owned characters. But with the Mario pantheon it has a lot more mainstream appeal. I'd be willing to bet that Mario Party 8 for the Wii is well underway to sell lots of additional Wii-motes.

6) Stupid people in slasher films manage to be completely ignorant of the genre and insist on going out in the dark alone. And slasher films with such stupid characters continue to have some of the best ROI in film production.

The same thing that you complain about in the Metroid series happens as well in RPGs series where the same characters appear. A guy who had become nearly a god in his level of power is back to level 1 the next time we see him. Link, in those cases where it is the same Link in consecutive Zelda titles, is back down to three hearts and tends to have misplaced all of his hardwon equipment.

The FFVII Advent Children movie touched upon this briefly. There was a scene where some dialogue quickly noted that two years after the events of FFVII, Cloud was the only member of the team who still had anything close to that power level. (My Cloud was level 99 with all attributes at 255 due to spending far too much time in the underwater base.)

Metroid games are playing out a beloved formula and the developers are loathe to mess with it. It may seem repetitive but it is also at the heart of the Metroid game structure. Perhaps they'll do something different on the Wii. Bowser kidnaps Samus. Mario remarks that he has never heard of any such bitch and he doesn't care if the kid was born with a familiar moustache and cap, then goes home to the castle for a nooner with Peach. Samus, long accustomed to dating non-humans, finds Bowser attractive but decides to play to get for the sport of it. Bowser then commences on a series of hilarious misadventures in his determination to impress Samus. After all, a woman who comes in a shell is irresistible to Bowser. He has long been troubled by his interspecies attraction to Peach and Samus' armor helps him look past the unseemly appearance of his approach to dating. We'll get the Feel the Magic/Rub Rabbits crew to do this one.

7) Hasn't happened yet, so no, I don't know. Nor have I any special reason to believe it. There are many millions of GameCube owners who aren't going to be Wii early adopters. If any game can still do big numbers on the GameCube, it's Twilight Princess.

8) Where are all the mainstream sales for same? By and large publishers know they can move a lot more of the same game just doing it on the PS2. Especially if it's a long faded genre like SHMUPS. It's been a long time since a shooter in the Gradius mold did serious numbers. The list of PS2 titles with sales of one million and higher doesn't include any that I can spot. That Ikaruga for GameCube even had a US release is remarkable.

The GameCube has one of the bestselling fighters of all time if you count SSBM. It also got a couple of new Mortal Kombats as well as the arcade originals in nostalgia packages. And Capcom vs. SNK, Soul Calibur 2, Viewtiful Joe: Red Hot Rumble, Turtles, license based fighters like X-men: Next Dimension, One Piece:Grand Battle, multiple Narutos, Marvel Nemesis, Bloody Roar, and others. Sure, a lot of them suck but that is Sturgeon's Law in action.

RPGs as a genre may do much better today than before FFVII drew so much attention but aside from the really big name franchises RPGs face an uphill climb for sales. In which case the platform with the biggest installed base is going to be the #1 choice. If you can only hope to reach 3% of the market on a particular machine, that machine better have a really big number of units out there. It wasn't for lack of trying. Tales of Symphonia broke a million sold worldwide but nothing else reached that mark and most did far worse. Baten Katos, Baldur's Gate, Darkened Skye, Summoner 2, LOTR: Third Age.

Publishers are going to place their games on platforms that either have huge market leads or are demographically well matched to the particular game. The GameCube is seen as a good place for a Spongebob title. A Max Payne, not so much.

9) On what do you base that? Although it hasn't been all one might wish for, the GameCube is hugely more successful than the Dreamcast. Unless Nintendo is blatantly lying, the GameCube has overall been a net profit for the company. Not nearly as great a money maker as past consoles or the assorted incarnations of the GBA, but worth the effort.

10) Because Nintendo had a standing army of inhouse developers and extensive second party deals before either Sony or Microsoft even had consoles on the market, and thus they don't see the need. It isn't Nintendo's policy to pay for third party content. Rather, they're accustomed to those publishers paying in the form of media production royalties to be on Nintendo's platform. They've managed to be a very profitable company without purchasing exclusivity on third party titles. The closest they've come to such deals didn't work out well. The Capcom deal was based on providing a variety of incentives rather than an outright cash payment. Primary of these was picking up the tab for the marketing of these titles. Capcom got cold feet before most of the games shipped due to their suspicion that a game like Killer 7 wasn't well suited to the GameCube demographic. This was correct in that nearly all GameCube owners are humans and Killer 7 did poorly among humans. Some were just bad luck. Critics showered adoration on Viewtiful Joe but retailers couldn't give it away. RE4 did well but had a huge franchise momentum behind it and could just as easily have done all of that business and then some on the PS2. The Xbox audience should have been highly receptive to that title as well but would have at best matched the GameCube sales.

11) Because it goes against their policy. The current boss Iwata recently spoke at length about his dislike for unstable prices. This is one reason the online distribution market holds so much appeal. Rather than having a small mountain of game packages produced and making retailers antsy if they don't sell a sufficient pace, there is instead just some files on a server. Since hard drive space is so cheap, there is far less incentive to drop the price on a game. If it sells really well and makes back its development cost, it can be discounted to reach a wider audience. But there would be no hurry. A game that sells very slowly might get a price drop in hopes of doing better in volume and making the payoff point within the same fiscal year as the release. A game that sells well but isn't a major hit can hold the same price for a long time. That is the way Nintendo likes it. Freed from media costs, their SRP will be lower than the competition's but their Player's Choice price point won't be as much as a reduction as the competition's games receive either.

Although, for what it's worth, I've gotten plenty of Nintendo published games in the recent blowout sales. Metroid Prime II, for instance, at CC for $9. I have a very big collection of GameCube games and paid over $20 for only one of them. That would be the Super Monkey Ball purchased to accompany my launch GameCube.

12) Do I really have to say it? Super Mario 64? At nearly 12 million units also one of the bestselling games of all time, and that is before counting the DS version.

13) The answer to #13 is to be found just below at #14. Star Fox passed from the Argonaut personnel who created the great SNES game and also away from the creators of the N64 hit. Star Fox Adventures started life with entirely original characters and was reworked to use the Star Fox characters fairly close to completion. The game might be judged more fairly if it had stayed with the original cast and stood on its own rather than being treated as a spin-off of what was really an unrelated franchise. The Namco crew who took on Star Fox Assault thought they had the feel of the series and could do more with it but it didn't prove out in execution.

Just because a game did a lot of business is not reason to do a sequel if the ideas aren't there to make it worthy. Consider how many crap sequels exist solely because the previous game did a lot of business, not because the creator has found further inspired use for the concepts. Nintendo can be credited with showing some restraint against doing sequel before the ideas are really there. Miyamoto is just one man and so far the secret cloning lab has had no success. After generating $Billions in revenue for the company, they're inclined to indulge his whims. He'll do the next major Mario platformer when he feels inspired, not when the accountants demand it.

Without a really inspired concept for bring it to the current era, a game that sold millions on the NES isn't necessarily going to hold that kind of appeal again. Dr. Mario has seen many revivals but no real sequel. There has been versions for pretty much every Nintendo platform, even if it was just the ugly NES Classic on the GBA. So it's gotten a lot of mileage since the NES but without a lot of added modes and tarting up.

Punch-Out got an SNES revival but didn't do all that well. A Wii version with a Wii-mote in each hand could be in the works.

Frankly, I strongly suspect Luigi's Mansion would not have done nearly as much business if it hadn't been a launch title and one that had people looking for the Second Coming of Super Mario 64. If it had come out in 2003 it would probably have lost a third or more of its sales to date.

Consider New Super Mario Bros. SNES owners would have loved a Super Mario World sequel, and here it is, just fifteen years later.

14) See above.

15) Nintendo dipped their toes into online ventures on numerous earlier occasions and found the world wasn't ready to deliver the numbers that gets Nintendo's interest. Sega's commitment to out of the box online support was a big mistake. Sony and Microsoft had to get quite far into the current generation to show a real console audience for online gaming and most of the consumers they drew were for game that are not Nintendo's strong suits. By and large, putting off a big online presence for their platforms didn't affect things much in this generation. The people who most desired online play were the least likely to be traditional Nintendo customers.

16) What would you have done? It wasn't that they didn't try. It was conceptually ahead of its time and of limited application. (The idea was far older. Atari demoed the Jaguar connecting to the Lynx in a similar fashion but never produced anything.) The cables reduced a lot of the appeal, much as they long had for several handheld multiplayer setups. Multiplayer is far more accessible on the newer WiFi equipped handhelds and they're going to be much easier to use in conjunction with their upcoming WiFi equipped console counterparts. The DS/Wii and PS3/PSP combos will explore the concept much farther I believe.

17) Mario gets generally very favorable reviews and makes heaps of money when he plays sports. Mario Golf, Tennis, and Soccer all have over a million sold. The soccer game probably saw a nice spike in sales in the last month thanks to the Rest of the World Cup.

18) See #17.

19) Because that doesn't sell anymore. In the days when all they had was wretched character mapped graphics with flickering sprites on very low capacity media, you couldn't offer much of a sensory experience. But you could code a huge amount of conditional stuff in very little space. One good set of tiles took up a lot of space by comparison. Modern games tend to hinge more on a visceral experience. Some of my all time favorite games could have disappeared in a puff of smoke when I finished and I wouldn't have minded. (Except for the lost resale value.) If they had anything left to show me I failed to find, it would have to be pretty major if it meant slogging through again. There is a point where fun becomes work. For me to do it again there has to be a major variation on the game offered. For instance, Star Ocean 2 on the PS2 had two choices of main character and far more character to be recruited into your team than could fit, so you had a lot of paths to choose for which ones you'd get. (Of course, I found a battle near the climax of that game so annoying I stopped playing and never got around to finishing it, nevermind doing it all over.)

Seems to me that Mario Sunshine was mainly spending hours finding all sorts of crap. You could spend a huge amount of time finding the exact way to reach a certain spot where a box of some object was visible.

20) Are you expecting some formal public announcement? It isn't as though Nintendo is facing some crisis like Sega did first with the Saturn and then with the Dreamcast. If retailers were complaining that they could no longer sell the GameCube at it's current price Nintendo would simply whip up a new bundle incentive or failing that, drop the price to $80. I greatly doubt there is a factory still producing truckloads of GameCubes daily that are threatening to become white elephants. The production lines would have been converted for manufacturing the Wii by now.

The real question is whether they'll produce a revised GameCube model that sells for $50 or less. Since the Wii chipset is a direct extension of the GameCube's at 90nm, they almost certainly used the GC chipset for initial test production before increasing the embedded RAM. Also, there is a thing called recoverable defects. If a chip intended for Wii use was unable to run at full speed but operated correctly at GC speed, or if there was a defective block of embedded RAM but enough was intact to serve as a GC part, these chips otherwise bound for the trash can could be used in a tiny, very low cost GameCube model to satisfy the last dregs of demand.

21) It's all about the numbers. PlayStation's got 'im, Nintendon't. Besides, what special advantage, other than making you happy, would those games receive from being on the GameCube?

Since the EyeToy was developed internally at Sony (although many similar products have existed), it seems unlikely Nintendo could have gotten it at all, nevermind an exclusive. EyeToy has done decent business but isn't huge. It's unlikely Nintendo would have done much better. It would have been supported by Mario Party but that hardly helps you, does it?

Your Sega question pretty much answered itself. Most of what Sega had to offer Nintendo didn't want. Again, what special advantage would the GC offer Sega's games that they wouldn't get on the competing machines? Early on Sega tried to categorize each machine by demographic but that ultimately proved pointless. Monkey Ball is a good seller anywhere you put it. Making it a GameCube exclusive for a while was more a benefit for Nintendo than for Sega. They would have been better off going multiplatform with it from the start.

22) Your analysis is based on hindsight rather than the real issue involved in design and manufacture of those handhelds. Both the original GBA and original DS found millions of satisfied customers before their replacement models became feasible. My 'phat' DS works perfectly and I have no urge to buy a DS Lite unless my existing DS dies. By the time that happens there may be yet another revision of the DS.

A major revision of the Wii that would make people like yourself driven insane by aesthetics over function is unlikely to happen for several years. Because a handheld incorporates so many functions that are fulfilled by separate equipment on a console, there is far more opportunities for engineering improvements. An N64 isn't affected by price drops to TV screens during its lifetime. It doesn't care if the set that was $800 when the N64 launched has dropped to $600 and lost 10 inches in depth three years later. But if Nintendo was selling the TV and N64 as one unit, then those cost reductions and technology improvements to the TV screen make a huge difference. No device is ever perfect. You go with the best that can be achieved at the time for the designated price point or you never end up selling anything.


I think a big part of the problem you're having is that Nintendo had too large a presence in your childhood. People who were NES playing kids in the 80s saw a world where Nintendo had a lock on the market due to their control of third party publishers. This created a false impression for kids that Nintendo could do no wrong when in fact they were human and made plenty of mistakes. Having competition locked out of the market made them so omnipresent it was hard for kids to see it. As soon as Nintendo had to compete on a level playing field they began to falter. The company still made tons of money but no longer appeared to have everything under control when they now had to work for things they'd previously gotten by default.

Kids who grew up under totalitarian regimes often have a hard time adjusting to freedom when it arrives.

[Who's The Twitch Now?]

What the hell are you talking about? He made a post, and because I didnt comment to it in 45 mins or less my topic is forfit because I ignored him? I didnt ignore him, I chose to just move on to the person who stuck to the topic and didnt start out the post verbally attacking me personally.

He's going on about ignoring him, but I'm not... I just didnt get to his yet... Him talking shit to me isnt my fault either.

I cant stop him from entering the disscussion if I wanted, its a free topic... he's just talking shit to me and attacking me personally to flame and make the topic pointless because I didnt rebuttal something everyone said on the first page.

Again, I'm sorry I attacked you. However, it is questionable if indeed you read my apology, which was in the post directly before your newest, a full 8 hours before. This is not immaturity. This is saying that my opinion doesn't matter to you and that nothing I say, even apologetically, will be noticed by you. That's a very common human feeling, it's the feeling of being inconsequential, and I'd really appreciate it if you would acknowledge my points from now on, as my last post alone works out to over 3 pages of intelligently worked-out material. Thanks.

[DarkNessBear]

Nintendo Fanboys are sheep basically.

They speak of innovation, like their console is really the god of innovation. So, it has a stylis, and a WiiMote...

Why must you be brought into Nintendo's view on Innovation. It's innovative to have a control that you can move with the screen? Or is it just a gimmick?

So every single movie that has been released are stupid and uninspired, non changing? No, because the Movie itself is where people the see new exciting ideas, new approaches. And with the ever growing technology, people are able to expand on that and create even more elaborate, more immerse films that draw people in.

Nintendo constantly runs itself on its same basic core characters... And that’s innovation?

I'd rather have my companies striving to put out new, different games. Featuring new characters, environments, stories. An actual emotional impact involved with the player. Not just some mindless clicking of a control, clicking mario fast enough so he can blow up a balloon...

Maybe "Wii60". "Nintendo Fanboys", "xbox fanboys" are the ones scared of innovating... They don't want to leave their roots, they feel more secure sticking with a never changing ideal and characters that follows them throughout their lives...

But for some, we seek change. And Nintendo doesn’t bring that, not then, not now, not on the horizon.

Maybe, next time Nintendo says they are so "Different" , "Innovated", "Unique" why not look at the games... and then think what that really means...

I do not hate Nintendo, and I am going to be purchasing a Wii. Not because I think its the, "OMG one system to rule all!" but because it is still a "FUN" toy to play with. And is a fun gimmicky-toy to play with the family...

But when I want real gaming... and real story, immersion, emotional impact. Something that draws me in... I wont be picking up my WIIMOTE for that...

[botticus]

But when I want real gaming... and real story, immersion, emotional impact. Something that draws me in... I wont be picking up my WIIMOTE for that...
Fire Emblem Wii. Nuff said. :D


But... where does the Xbox comment come from? They're following the same progression as PS3, since I'm assuming that's who you are favoring.

[furyk]

But when I want real gaming... and real story, immersion, emotional impact. Something that draws me in... I wont be picking up my WIIMOTE for that...

Just curious, but what do you consider real gaming in terms of what's out right now?

[jer7583]

[FONT=Verdana]
Why must you be brought into Nintendo's view on Innovation. It's innovative to have a control that you can move with the screen? Or is it just a gimmick?

Actually, it's an innovation. The DS's success and software library has proved that it's more than a gimmick, it's a new method of control for new and old genre's alike. Not unlike the Analog stick which nintendo also innovated in.

DS allows previously too complex or too unweildy designs to be more handheld friendly. Just look at Metroid Prime Hunters vs Coded Arms. There's no question over which handles FPS on a handheld better. In the same way, things like Brain Age would never be the same without handwriting recognition, or without voice recognition(regardless of the quality of either). Nintendogs would just be menus and pushing buttons, not watching a digital creature respond to your actual voice and motions.

Looking at the future, the possiblities for DS haven't even been explored yet. You're probably the type of person who groans at the concept of mario basketball, but it's also because you haven't looked into the unique control style (tap to dribble, drag to pass, etc) and the fact that the game started out as a Square-Enix idea that nintendo wanted to partner up on and help gain recognition with the Mario name. That's not even mentioning Ouendan/EBE which, as far as i can tell, is the only decent implementation of rhythm gameplay into a portable, unless you include those awful japanese GBA DDR titles.

I really didn't understand what you were talking about with film, so i can't say anything about it.

Nintendo constantly runs itself on its same basic core characters... And that’s innovation?

I think that this one's been answered a million times already. The characters are popular and allow strong but foreign concepts (like DS/Wii/Super Smash/Paper Mario/Wario Ware/Cel-shaded zelda/FPS Metroid) to have a hint of familiarity that helps spark interest and make them more consumer friendly.
If something like Mario soccer didn't have mario in it and it was basically just a sequel to sega soccer slam (another fun, but forgotten game by the SAME developer) I'd pass it over in an instant. Maybe that makes me shallow, but in the sea of shit that sits on retail shelves now, familiar characters mean a lot in a first impression. It's unfortunate, but true.

Do you honestly think that Resident Evil 4 would have been as successful without a long established Resident Evil fanbase behind it? The game would still have been as fun, but I doubt the sales would have been there.
On the other hand, Beyond Good and Evil was a critically acclaimed title that saw little commercial success. If it'd been Princess Zelda's adventures against an evil organization in hyrule using her camera with the same basic gameplay and concepts, it'd have been a commercial hit as well.

I'd rather have my companies striving to put out new, different games. Featuring new characters, environments, stories. An actual emotional impact involved with the player. Not just some mindless clicking of a control, clicking mario fast enough so he can blow up a balloon...

I'm going to assume based on your continued love fof "stories and emotions" that you're a gamer who enjoys RPGs and other story based games. Typically genres that see you spending 40 hours MINDLESSLY CLICKING THROUGH MENUS. It seems to me that most normal styled japanese RPGs are just mediocre literature/film with menu clicking thrown in to simulate some sort of interactivity. And their main demographic is intellectual wannabes who don't get into real literature, so they bite on RPGs' cliched, trite stories.

Maybe "Wii60". "Nintendo Fanboys", "xbox fanboys" are the ones scared of innovating... They don't want to leave their roots, they feel more secure sticking with a never changing ideal and characters that follows them throughout their lives...
But for some, we seek change. And Nintendo doesn’t bring that, not then, not now, not on the horizon.

Such a powerful, bucking the masses quote makes me think you're stricken with anti-establishement needs to be different. I haven't yet figured out what your unmentioned alternative is to nintendo's "failed innovation attempts" but my best guesses are with square enix's mediocrity, or just any small time company whos games play the underdog at retail and are adored for that.

Sony certainly isn't delivering anything new, with their me-too attempts at every turn to copy MS and Nintendo's legitimate innovations. At least Microsoft innovated in creating a workable worldwide online community and marketplace that millions swear by. Sony is the biggest follower of the three. Nintendo has and always will play by their own rules and what they believe will work.

So far, their systems have never dissapointed for myself and millions of others. To call us "sheep" because we believe in a long history of nintendo's products that have been good to us and because of the rosy childhood memories involved is just ignorance.
Someday, after Sony has their failures and falls from the top of the industry, there'll be sony apologists too who'll wax poetic about the first time they played twisted metal, or FFVII, or Crash Bandicoot, or whatever those sony kids played. And just like us nintendo lovers (and the sega/atari fans before us), they will support sony to the end. Brand loyalty isn't being "sheep" although saying so briefly makes you look totally anti-establishment and like such a rebel. Kudos for that, a lot of people will probably buy into it.

[alongx]

From whats been said, the Wii wasnt even that awesome at E3.

Where has this been said? Some alternate bizarro internet?

[TimPV3]

The fact is, a straight power battle won't accomplish anything. It's bringing a relatively new way to play that will get me excited about other games besides Nintendo's, and that my friends is a big accomplishment.The Wii isn't bringing any new ways to play. If I want to stand up aiming something at the screen shooting people I can play Time Crisis. If I want to swing a sword I can go to the arcade. I sell virtual pong at work. I have the Eyetoy for PS2, and that allows a lot of stuff too. All Wii does is put it in one big box, without wires.

Casual gamers will see this as something new, because honestly, besides your non casual gamers who always goes to arcades you play those sword games, picked up Time Crisis 3 on sale at EB, or owns the whole library of Eyetoy games? They'll be like "ooo virtual sports, I saw this at a kiosk at the mall but now it's made by Nintendo! They make video games! It's cheap!"

[botticus]

The Wii isn't bringing any new ways to play. If I want to stand up aiming something at the screen shooting people I can play Time Crisis. If I want to swing a sword I can go to the arcade. I sell virtual pong at work. I have the Eyetoy for PS2, and that allows a lot of stuff too. All Wii does is put it in one big box, without wires.

Casual gamers will see this as something new, because honestly, besides your non casual gamers who always goes to arcades you play those sword games, picked up Time Crisis 3 on sale at EB, or owns the whole library of Eyetoy games? They'll be like "ooo virtual sports, I saw this at a kiosk at the mall but now it's made by Nintendo! They make video games! It's cheap!"
Wow.

Okay, so I guess you don't need to pick up Red Steel, Metroid Prime 3, Wii Sports, DQ Swords (maybe), Duck Hunt (maybe) and... I think that's it. That leaves WarioWare, Trauma Center, Super Mario Galaxy, Madden, ExciteTruck, Downhill Jam, Elebits, Project H.A.M.M.E.R., Rayman, Super Monkey Ball, Wii Music, DBZ and a few others (probably Necro-Nesia, Day of Disaster, Resident Evil, Fire Emblem, and Crystal Chronicles) as currently announced titles that don't really fit what you are claiming you can do now. I think that's probably enough games for you. Enjoy!

And yes, we know some of those mayend up sucking, but that happens on every system, irrelevant of the control scheme.

[Strell]

Oh come now, you really can't compare Eyetoy to the Wii because that's comparing an add-on versus a core component.

And you really can't say that it's analogous to Time Crisis 3. In interface they are about half and half at best.

Beyond that, I think we all need to not argue about how the games will be/control because none of us have a damn clue, with the small exception of a few people who went to E3 (which, oddly, seems to be some of the most anti-Nintendo of the CAG bunch), and even that is a place so full of extra-sensory overload that you can't formulate that great of an opinion.

I think there's some good arguments here both for and against the big N, but there's some really odd ones that can't be relegated in any manner given what we all know.

I'm going to wait until November, when the thing comes out, and we'll discuss it then (yes, I have a good idea of the release date given some sources I have).

[Who's The Twitch Now?]

Are you suggesting that there are only two ways to use the Remote? Are you that narrow-minded? Sure, it'll be a sword and gun; that's what people want. But there are countless other innovations down the line, and all your arguments like, "The gimmick will get tired and they'll use it as a regular controller," are based on nothing. Absolutely nothing. You're counting out the possibility of innovation before you take the time to look at the possibilities of innovation. That's simple, stubborn blindness.

[TimPV3]

Wow.

Okay, so I guess you don't need to pick up Red Steel, Metroid Prime 3, Wii Sports, DQ Swords (maybe), Duck Hunt (maybe) and... I think that's it. That leaves WarioWare, Trauma Center, Super Mario Galaxy, Madden, ExciteTruck, Downhill Jam, Elebits, Project H.A.M.M.E.R., Rayman, Super Monkey Ball, Wii Music, DBZ and a few others (probably Necro-Nesia, Day of Disaster, Resident Evil, Fire Emblem, and Crystal Chronicles) as currently announced titles that don't really fit what you are claiming you can do now. I think that's probably enough games for you. Enjoy!

And yes, we know some of those mayend up sucking, but that happens on every system, irrelevant of the control scheme.Red Steel = Time Crisis/Killer 7/arcade sword game hybrid. I apologize I forgot about all those titles, but we already have Downhill Jam on DS, same with Trauma Center (are you supposed to stand and wave your arms to operate? Gee, that would be cool), and I don't know enough about those titles to make a valid argument, even though my first one wasn't even close to that. But hey, have fun playing football without an analog controller, and standing up to do your kamahameha's. While we list all the Wii games that aren't even launch titles, why don't we list all the other announced titles for PS3 and 360 too.

The following is purely a dream, but it is, at the very least, possible. It is what I can possibly see Nintendo offering as an "Ultimate" package for the Wii's launch:
Wii system
2 Wii Remotes, 2 Nunchuks, 2 Classic Controllers, 2 Zapper Attachments
1 Memory unit (of some kind or another)
1 Free Virtual Console download
Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros., Super Mario World, Super Mario 64, Virtual Console downloads.
1 1st-party-developed game.
Total Cost = $300 + whatever else you want, +tax.
Nintendo charged $40 for a Wavebird, so I'd imagine that's how much a Wiimote will cost. If the system alone with a Wiimote and probably a nunchuk will (most likely) be $249.99, I honestly doubt you'll get a virtual console download rumored to be $5, a $40 Wiimote, 2 zapper attachments, another nunchuk, a game, and a memory unit for $300. Good luck though.

Now, as I said, it's a long-shot. But, it serves a purpose, because here's the absolute bare minimum for the PS3 launch:

PS3 60 GB system = $600
1 extra controller = $50?
1 game = I'll say $60, but it may be more than that.
1 Memory Unit = $30.
Total cost = $850, with nothing else.
$600 + $50 + $60 = $710, even with a memory stick it would only be $740 so you had some sweet math going on that one. No need for a memory unit though because the PS3 comes with a hard drive. So you're paying $710 for an awesome looking game, 60 GB worth of space (that would cost $300 if you had to buy 3 20GB HD's for the 360, but that's an irrelevant argument with a supposed bigger HD coming this year), the ability to play all of your old PS2/PSX games without having to buy them all over again, a DVD/CD/Blu-Ray player out of the box (it's unknown if Wii will play DVD movies right away), a Linux operating system, a better online service (have fun with friend codes), giant enemy crabs, and some other stuff I'm sure I'm forgetting. Wii is definately more worth it, but what the fuck ever, I'm still getting both.

[botticus]

Red Steel = Time Crisis/Killer 7/arcade sword game hybrid. I apologize I forgot about all those titles, but we already have Downhill Jam on DS, same with Trauma Center (are you supposed to stand and wave your arms to operate? Gee, that would be cool), and I don't know enough about those titles to make a valid argument, even though my first one wasn't even close to that. But hey, have fun playing football without an analog controller, and standing up to do your kamahameha's. While we list all the Wii games that aren't even launch titles, why don't we list all the other announced titles for PS3 and 360 too.

That's why I said you don't need to get Red Steel. And you don't need to stand up to use the damn remote, good God. Have you seen the controls for Madden? Flicking the nunchuk to juke left or right? Yeah, beats button pressing. But you must have missed Madden on the PC back in the day when we used the keyboard. :lol: And actually, the vast majority of those are planned as launch-window titles (they expect 24, we'll see), which can certainly change. I think the only ones that weren't are... DBZ, RE, and Fire Emblem.

What do the non-launch PS3 and 360 games have to do with anything? Do they use different controls?

[TimPV3]

Are you suggesting that there are only two ways to use the Remote? Are you that narrow-minded? Sure, it'll be a sword and gun; that's what people want. But there are countless other innovations down the line, and all your arguments like, "The gimmick will get tired and they'll use it as a regular controller," are based on nothing. Absolutely nothing. You're counting out the possibility of innovation before you take the time to look at the possibilities of innovation. That's simple, stubborn blindness.I'm not being blind. I never said anything like the gimmick will get tired and it'll be used as a regular controller, if anything I think people will get tired from having to stand with their arm extended to use it. I'm aware of most of the innovations that will come, but you summed it up here:

Sure, it'll be a sword and gun; that's what people want.

I'm not going to stand up to break in billiards, run around the room playing pong or swinging the Wiimote like a bat for baseball, because like I said, those are gimmicks that you see in little kiosks at the mall during Christmas, little plug in systems with wireless paddles that you use to swing. Those are really exciting. The only thing I think anybody really care about are using it as a sword and gun. I haven't used it for this, but it sounds impractical to stand up next to your TV (even weirder far away) to make precision cuts in Trauma Center. What sounds decent is conducting an orchestra, or shooting an arrow (same thing as a gun, except the pulling back). I know I'm missing all the other cool stuff so while you're flaming me be sure to include it in great detail.

[TimPV3]

That's why I said you don't need to get Red Steel. And you don't need to stand up to use the damn remote, good God. Have you seen the controls for Madden? Flicking the nunchuk to juke left or right? Yeah, beats button pressing. And actually, the vast majority of those are planned as launch-window titles (they expect 24, we'll see), which can certainly change. I think the only ones that weren't are... DBZ, RE, and Fire Emblem.

What do the non-launch PS3 and 360 games have to do with anything? Do they use different controls?If you're not standing what's the point? It can't be fun sitting on the couch with your hand sitting on an armrest. Non-launch PS3 and 360 titles have nothing to do with this, this thread turned into a Nintendo vs. the World thread, and it's not fair to compare the current and launch games of 360/PS3 games to Wii titles we won't see for a while.

[Theduck]

I'm bored with honestly nothing else to do, so i'll add my thoughts.

1. I agree with the fact that it sucked to have to buy another GBA just because they decided to make a better one, but the reality is that it was better hence worth getting it. They could have left it like it was, but they chose to redesign it. Weather it be for money, artistic view, or just to produce something better/cooler, they still gave us something superior.

2. Square did do alot for the snes, but far from held it up. The titles you listed are the only thing that squaresoft has released in a while that have been that good, so we arn't missing out.

3. EA is the biggest mainstream unoriginal company out there, it's a good thing they jumped ship. They care about money, not innovation, that's why they left. As for other 3rd party support, They go where the money is. Where's the money? PS2.

4. A gimmick that not only impressed and amazed japan, but the US as well. I personally enjoy the simplest thing which is not having to pause to check the map in a game. It also may not have the huge list of games to support the touchscreen, but that's just icing on the cake. 2 screens are better than 1. Don't get me wrong tho, some games do suck.

5. Mario party does suck. It used to be awesome, but they overdid it. Now think about that for a second. It used to be a great party game on the cube till they came out with 7 of them. Do you think you'd still enjoy smash brothers the same if they would have released the 7th title by now? No. Why? Because innovation dies when you release the same thing over and over with no pause inbetween.

6. As true as the metroid thing is, the games are still amazing. Besides, Losing her powers is what makes the game challenging. Storywise, they're all different. They just add that to make it challenging, tho boring.

7. Do we know it? No. It could come out for both, it could come out for the Wii. Till the time comes we won't know. I would get the Wii version if I had a Wii, just for the extra's. So releasing it on both consoles wouldn't be a bad move, just wouldn't force so many Wii sales. The game will sell the system, and If I had to make the choice i'd go for the option with the most money making involved. You would too.

8. Fighters: PS2, RPG's: PS2, Shmups: xbox. That's how it's been this Gen.

9. Because the world is full of GTA's and Maddens.

10. Contracts and companies work like that. Look at the metal gear series. So exclusive yet always jumps from one system to another.

11. When you're short on system selling, it's a good idea to try to make money off the games. I also don't see a huge difference in price as far as systems and games go. I also bet the Wii will have the cheapest priced games this upcomming gen.

12. That 3D mario came and went. It's called Mario 64. Also, Mario 3 was something special, things like that can't be duplicated.

13. The point is that if they released mario kart's and smash bro's like they do mario party's, the games wouldn't be as good or special when they do come out. Innovation dies when you overdo it. Yay! Mario kart 14!

14. Why, I don't know. Does it suck? Yes. Nintendo needs to get on the ball with starfox and make it themselfs.

15. It's coming, and better than the other consoles will have. The DS has amazing online support with a very easy interface. Expect the Wii to be the same.

16. The support was crappy for that, what can you do.

17. Mario baseball was the shit. Stop whining so much.

18. Madden also sells because it's madden. Think about that.

19. Replayability doesn't really exist anymore sadly.

20. Why kill something that's making you money? Would you stop doing something that's making you money? No.

21. Or maybe the wouldn't have been perfect? I can't see myself playing KH on the cube, it's just weird.

22. If you came out with a system, then thought of a way to improve it, you would redesign it in a heartbeat. Something better is always a good thing, just because the redesign thing's till perfection isn't a flaw.

There done. Alot of your nitpicks were just that, personal nitpicks with nintendo. I don't think you LOVE NINTENDO because alot of points were silly and pointless.

[botticus]

If you're not standing what's the point? It can't be fun sitting on the couch with your hand sitting on an armrest. Non-launch PS3 and 360 titles have nothing to do with this, this thread turned into a Nintendo vs. the World thread, and it's not fair to compare the current and launch games of 360/PS3 games to Wii titles we won't see for a while.
I guess I'm one of the people who never understood this whole "your arm will get tired thing" - this isn't just for you. Imagine you're holding a 360 controller. Now, cut it in half. Move your hands apart as far as you'd like. Seems like we should be able to sit the same way we have for years.

[varsitygamer]

get tired of standing and moving your arm?

man, you guys must be fatties.

[Who's The Twitch Now?]

I really don't know where I was with that math, I had to have erased something and kept the total. Sorry about that. And you do make a good point, with all the inclusions, but the simple fact is that Sony CANNOT win. They're assuming they're going to be more popular than they were for double the price, and they're going to lose. On the home front, though, sure, you're getting a lot of bang for your buck, and for many it will be worth it. However, your other argument simply counts out ingenuity for the Wii, based on personal concerns, not known facts.

[Strell]

get tired of standing and moving your arm?

man, you guys must be fatties.

Hey.

We can't all be on the varsity team and get to wear matching jackets. With stupid differntly colored sleeves and collars that ride up on your neck, but just below your shaved haircut, which is totally shaved from after winning the district championships against your cross town rivals, The Tigers....

[varsitygamer]

Hey.

We can't all be on the varsity team and get to wear matching jackets. With stupid differntly colored sleeves and collars that ride up on your neck, but just below your shaved haircut, which is totally shaved from after winning the district championships against your cross town rivals, The Tigers....

...


it's like you've known me for years...

[Strell]

...


it's like you've known me for years...

Well, you did stuff me in your locker a few times, but I totally got back at you on alt.nerd.obsessive, where I wrote all kinds of hilarious things at your expense! The other people at the forum like, totally thought I was awesome.

[jer7583]

The wiimote won't be any more tiring to use than a mouse is. Games like Wii sports may be more strenuous, but then they're probably only designed for short and fun multiplayer sessions. And if you can't stand the stress of standing up and swiging your arms, videogames might need to move down on the priority list in life for you.

I guess there are still people who complain about having to move the stylus and that being tiring with the DS.. whatever. All the arguements against the Wii are subjective bullshit that anti-nintendites feel they have to bring up to make the company look bad.
The arguments against sony are facts. $600 is a lot of money. The system uses the same damn controller it's used for nearly 10 years. Sony's got a proven track record of sketchy launch hardware. Blu-Ray is an uncertain format with more uncertainty brought on by the failure of UMDs. Developers have said the PS3 will be an even more difficult/expensive system to develop for than ever before. The PSP is expensive it's library consists of load time laden dumbed down PS2 ports. All facts.

Lets see some arguements against nintendo that aren't based on personal game preferences or assumptions about limitations of the controller that NONE of us have even touched yet. Because after all, if you don't like nintendo's games, it's pretty much a no-brainer to not buy their system.

I hate Dynasty Warriors, and you couldn't pay me to play one. Same goes for Need for Speed, i've always hated that damn series, and i'll never buy one. But you don't see me on dynasty warriors or need for speed boards posting "really, what has Koei/EA done right?" guess why that is? because i'm not an attention whore douchebag like all the anti-nintendo posters out there are. You're not going to change our opinion about loving nintendo and their games, so find something better to do with your fucking time. Because we've had enough of you wasting ours. I'm sick of this shit.

[redgopher]

Dual screen is a Gimmick... and the DS doesnt have enough titles that fully support the touch screen.

It might be a gimmick, but it's a fucking rad gimmick, it's fun and it works.

Super Mario Bros. 3 is one of the top selling games of all time... why not release a 3d Mario with the same ideas that made that one so inventive?

New Super Mario Brothers. You re-touched your list three days ago and you didn't even catch that one?

Dr Mario sold 4.85 million copies, Kid Icarus sold 1.76 Million copies, Punch Out sold 3 Million copies, Luigi's Mansion sold 3.27 million copies.... sequel? Anyone? What about Animal Crossing? Couldn't they at least put that online, or released extended content? I mean, only one Smash Brothers, Mario Kart & Mario platformer per console? Whats the point?

Animal Crossing Wide World. God damn, you are out of touch.

Nintendo games lack replayability now. Even flagship titles dont have hours of finding items in them anymore.

I'm going back through NSMB. Awesome game.

BTW, not a fanboy, own all the current/last gen hardware and plenty of games.

[jkam]

The system uses the same damn controller it's used for nearly 10 years.

Tsk Tsk....actually its worse no rumble and the tilt sensitivity is nothing more than a really piss poor attempt to seem state of the art.

[MarioColbert]

I guess there are still people who complain about having to move the stylus and that being tiring with the DS.. whatever. All the arguements against the Wii are subjective bullshit that anti-nintendites feel they have to bring up to make the company look bad. [...] But you don't see me on dynasty warriors or need for speed boards posting "really, what has Koei/EA done right?" guess why that is? because i'm not an attention whore douchebag like all the anti-nintendo posters out there are. You're not going to change our opinion about loving nintendo and their games, so find something better to do with your fucking time. Because we've had enough of you wasting ours. I'm sick of this shit.

People who complain about the stylus know not what they bequest upon their friends and children. Nintendo DS is a system of perfect equilibrium concerning everything, which includes the number of worthy titles for it. It is a joy to program for, it features a kick-ass 2D engine, and from what I hear, the actual development kit (not the reverse-engineering one you can get online) rocks ass. (If you need a list of great games for Nintendo DS, someone else here can hand your ass to you better than I can, because I still have two paychecks worth of paying off my credit cards.)

Anti-Nintendo person is hardly a person at all, although we've had a few people claim to have "fallen from grace." I do not know how that works, but if you've grown up playing Kid Icarus and A Boy And His Blob, and then you see Grand Theft Auto : San Andreas and go "fuck yes, Nintendo SUX LOL," there is something inherently wrong with that picture. I'll also say that if you grew up with Zelda, and you were "impressed beyond belief" with something as predictable as The Shadow of the Colossus, I feel nothing but contempt for you.



The arguments against sony are facts. $600 is a lot of money. The system uses the same damn controller it's used for nearly 10 years. Sony's got a proven track record of sketchy launch hardware. Blu-Ray is an uncertain format with more uncertainty brought on by the failure of UMDs. Developers have said the PS3 will be an even more difficult/expensive system to develop for than ever before. The PSP is expensive it's library consists of load time laden dumbed down PS2 ports. All facts.
Despite the fact that I agree with everything you wrote, the PSP statement can still be considered an 'opinion.' Don't get me wrong, you'll get an "amen, brother" from me anytime you say shit like that... but facts are facts.

Speaking of which, there is a list of "facts" much more extensive than yours of Sony's CORRECT decisions both in the marketplace and in the industry. I'd really write out what they are, but I can't be bothered - can't physically, because I possess ElektroPlankton, and the mellow subtleness of this rhythm is rather active in being the one and only catalyst of magic that is to change my boring office into a fun room made of succulent female breasts. AND/OR PLANKTON!


Lets see some arguements against nintendo that aren't based on personal game preferences or assumptions about limitations of the controller that NONE of us have even touched yet. Because after all, if you don't like nintendo's games, it's pretty much a no-brainer to not buy their system.
Why do you care to hear arguments against Nintendo? There can be a rather tiring list of Nintendo's mistakes, both commercially, and in their software development. Yet the reason why I like Nintendo more than I'll ever attempt to liking Xbox / PlayStation franchise stems from the fact that as a company that delivers games, they are consistent. That isn't enough to love something for, but being that Nintendo has yet to succumb to the term "predictable," I think that as long as I stick with their system (and just as with GameCube, their system alone), I do not see myself losing out.


Just recently, I tried talking to a couple of friends of mine about Nintendo. We actually tried to come up with such list, but we ended up remembering the underdogs of every console instead... When it comes to this thread vs. Nintendo, the only metaphor I could fathom is bringing a gun to an arm wrestling match. To accuse Nintendo's GameBoy of being "bad" because "you couldn't see the screen" is pomposity held paramount beyond standards that someone who combined MARIO and COLBERT for his nickname would care to approach. There is a part of me that wishes to pull a Lewis Black and yell "THEY RELEASED IT IN 1989 YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE!!!" but mmm... Plankton!


I found a solution for this nonsense. So, next time some gentleman/lady speaks out of their anus about how much Nintendo sucks, do the following (commands are in bold):
pick up ElektroPlankton Cartridge
use Cartridge on Nintendo DS
use Nintendo DS [this will turn it on]
give Nintendo DS to Smug Bastard
pick up Pineapple
use Pineapple on Smug Bastard Entranced
in the following "dialog" of how you wish to use the pineapple, choose "Like a Knight would use his Mace"
after a funny cutscene, pick up Nintendo DS

[Strell]

I found a solution for this nonsense. So, next time some gentleman/lady speaks out of their anus about how much Nintendo sucks, do the following (commands are in bold):
pick up ElektroPlankton Cartridge
use Cartridge on Nintendo DS
use Nintendo DS [this will turn it on]
give Nintendo DS to Smug Bastard
pick up Pineapple
use Pineapple on Smug Bastard Entranced
in the following "dialog" of how you wish to use the pineapple, choose "Like a Knight would use his Mace"
after a funny cutscene, pick up Nintendo DS


Also,

Use gopher repellent on gopher.
Then, use it on another gopher.
Then, use it on gopher horde.
Then, use it on funny little man.

[the3rdkey]

Awesome, name them. And name ones that werent on any other systems or remakes.

Animal Crossing
Zelda: WW
Metroid Prime
Metriod Prime 2
Super Mario Sunshine
Tales of Symphonia
Mario Kart: DD

Only games I liked fer PS2:

Shadow of Col.

Metal Gear 2 and 3

Only games I like for Xbox:

Halo
Ninja Gaiden

[jer7583]

Colbert, you rock. I know the psp statement was opinion, not fact, but I just hate that little shitty portable so much, and the rapstar wannabes to bling bling it off their neck more often than use it. Yes, i've seen this happen numerous times around here, and yes, i laugh hysterically whenever i see it.

[doctorfaustus]

OP, I read your title and was expecting a list of what "Nintendo has done right" not a list of where nintendo went wrong. Kind of misleading.

Anyhow, a pretty interesting thread read.

[Sofa King Kool]

I just dont get the whole Nintendo bandwagon, just 2 years ago everyone hated Nintendo, then they remake the GBA again, talk about the Wii and release the first decent system in years (DS) and now everyone is in love with them again... I just dont follow the bandwagon, and I think its idiotic to get screwed by Nintendo again and again. So, tell me... why is NINTENDO so awesome? Because 2 years ago, they were going the way of ATARI. Is it just cool to like them cause they're the underdog? Because newsflash, they're NOT the underdog, they're freakin NINTENDO.

That problem isn't Nintendo's fault. That problem is caused by idiots who don't like Nintendo just because they don't spit out new games or hardware as fast as Sony does. (Even though most games and hardware from other companies are rushed and they end up being shit.) Nintendo takes it's time and makes something good.

[Mookyjooky]

People who complain about the stylus know not what they bequest upon their friends and children. Nintendo DS is a system of perfect equilibrium concerning everything, which includes the number of worthy titles for it. It is a joy to program for, it features a kick-ass 2D engine, and from what I hear, the actual development kit (not the reverse-engineering one you can get online) rocks ass. (If you need a list of great games for Nintendo DS, someone else here can hand your ass to you better than I can, because I still have two paychecks worth of paying off my credit card.)
"Nintendo DS is a system of perfect equilibrium concerning everything" - You should go into advertising... I should stop reading right there, but I'll proceed and assume you have stock in the company.

First off, the stylus is already proving to have less usefulness than the D-pad and buttons. Controlling Mario around in Mario DS is chore, and proves that it’s not really ready for 3D 3rd person control. Now first person works pretty well, but its a freaking keyboard and mouse setup... not innovative. I can drive a car with a joystick, but in the end I'm still driving a car.

So in the future, I hope to see Nintendo deliver on more innovative game design revolving around the stylus. I enjoyed the Kirby Game, and Trauma Center... but most of the games I've played really would of been decent without a second screen and without stylus control as well. Advanced Wars DS, Castlevania, New Super Mario Bros.... these games would of stood out regardless, and the extra display and input just felt tacked on. That’s the difference between a Gimmick and Innovation. Innovation revolutionizes, a Gimmick is tacked on fluff to entice the buyer. We'll see in a year, if the added pieces are Innovative depending on the games. Here's hoping for the best.

Personally, I believe the DS is still the better handheld, but I'm not blinded by Nintendo fanboyism... a Gimmick is a gimmick. It's fun, but I really could of lived without it.

Anti-Nintendo person is hardly a person at all; although we've had a few people claim to have "fallen from grace." I do not know how that works, but if you've grown up playing Kid Icarus and A Boy And His Blob, and then you see Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas and go "shaq-fu yes, Nintendo SUX LOL," there is something inherently wrong with that picture. I'll also say that if you grew up with Zelda, and you were "impressed beyond belief" with something as predictable as The Shadow of the Colossus, I feel nothing but contempt for you.
Quick note: Could all the Nintendo Fanboys stop doing "leet speak" in their posts? I know you think you're clever in making people who dont think like you look stupid, but the only people I've seen talk like that are Nintendo Fanboys, and Nintendo Fanboys making fun of other Fanboys. OK? Thanks.

Now, back to business.

"Anti-Nintendo person is hardly a person at all" - Once again, mar-ket-ing. Go for it, its yours for the taking.

Here's the issue with Nintendo... it doesn’t evolve... and no, I'm not talking about getting more violent... I dont care about blood, and GTA is shit... I mean Nintendo doesn’t try to immerse the player. Let me explain myself.

Video game companies are constantly trying to "immerse" the player. IE: Nintendo, creating the Wii in an attempt to make the player more immersed in the world of the game. Ok, sounds good... but therein lays the problem. Immersion is a mental thing, not a physical thing. We learned this lesson with Virtual Reality.

Video Games do not make you cry, and usually... the people who do cry, it’s usually at an old RPG game. I'll tell you why in a second.

Why do movies make you cry? It almost doesn’t make since right? Movies make you cry, and you do nothing... you're not even controlling the main characters... why do you cry?

Because you're immersed.
Because Immersion is Mental. NOT PHYSICAL.

Now, this brings me to my real point about evolution. Nintendo doesn’t evolve their characters... Mario is still Jumpman from 1978; Samus is still a faceless, emotionless, sexless character in a suit. Link; who has the most emotion out of the "Triforce" (Nintendo's top 3 characters)... he's still pointless. He's a kid, who even though his love is stolen, he stays kind hearted and smashes through levels as he becomes more and more powerful with multiple weapons and assortments that make him practically and unstoppable juggernaut.

But wait, Link...he's a kid. There's no way he should be able to master all these weapons in 40-50 hours game play. He cuts down creature after creature, and even after getting the master sword, he's as strong as he's always been. Kill a creature, get a rupee... repeat. Find some random kindhearted characters... meet silly townsfolk, talk to a retard in a peter-pan costume.... WHAT THE HELL?

It's Link, the way he's always been, and the way he'll always be. Same story, same premise... and the character, though iconic, he's iconic because gamers are in love with gaming history. But if Link were designed for a movie, he would be a half-rate character.

The reason I was playing Colossus, and saying that this should be Zelda isn’t because it’s a better game. Or that I feel that Zelda should change drastically into a completely different game... its that I'm not attached to Link. I was attached to the main character in Colossus. I was immersed.... without fancy gadgets and bullshit marketing tactics... I felt the main character's plight. I was rooting for him all the way, all while I was controlling him. And I thought, God, why isn’t a Zelda game this good?

Zelda games are great, dont get me wrong... but though fun, I've never rooted for Link to find the Princess... it was just fun. Link never felt real to me. Every attack was the same, he never faulted, Link was a machine... he could do a spin-slash, over and over again. No change, no deviation. He would jump off everything the same, and reticules would lock for ease of attack.

Here's the problem. Zelda evolved for 3D... but that was 10 years ago. When Wind Waker was released, it was still Zelda 64, with Cel Shading. Link was still a robot, with the same damn story over and over again. But now it looks like it’s a 3D cartoon. Awesome.

Have you ever seen the movie "Legend"? They should call Ripley Scott to direct the next Zelda game. They make enough money on the franchise to do it. Maybe then I would give a shit again about Link's plight.

We expect more from movies... but with games, most people still have their expectations 15 years behind. "Is it fun?", isn’t the only question on my mind when I pick up a game. And when I pick up a Nintendo game, I know that, that question will be answered with a "Hell yes it's fun!” But then I realize the stark truth...

"Do the characters feel real?" NO.
"Will I care to finish this game?" NO.
"I know its fun, but is the fun repetitive?" YES.
"Why do I want to play the same game over and over again? This was fun when it was the 2D to 3D transition... but it’s lacking substance, is this even really fun anymore now?" I DONT KNOW ANYMORE. I JUST LIKE IT BECAUSE I'M NOSTALGIC.

In the old days, you didn’t need a story. You just needed fun. Now, I get bored to death of robotic characters in low-grade B movies.

....because I possess ElektroPlankton, and the mellow subtleness of this rhythm is rather active in being the one and only catalyst of magic that is to change my boring office into a fun room made of succulent female breasts. AND/OR PLANKTON!

I found a solution for this nonsense. So, next time some gentleman/lady speaks out of their anus about how much Nintendo sucks, do the following (commands are in bold):
pick up ElektroPlankton Cartridge
use Cartridge on Nintendo DS
use Nintendo DS [this will turn it on]
give Nintendo DS to Smug Bastard
pick up Pineapple
use Pineapple on Smug Bastard Entranced
in the following "dialog" of how you wish to use the pineapple, choose "Like a Knight would use his Mace"
after a funny cutscene, pick up Nintendo DSSounds Great, I LOVE Electroplankton... as a musician I freaked over this and bought it from Japan first day. I love it...except for one small problem.

Electroplankton isn’t a game. It's a toy.

This is as effective as saying that Warner Bros. is the best Movie studio and then proving that by playing a music CD produced by Warner Bros. Nintendo is a toy company, as well as a gaming company. But dont confuse the two, and say Nintendo makes great games because they made Electroplankton.

Even on that level, Electroplankton is repetitive and boring. You can breeze through all of the levels (instruments) in about 20 mins... its a handy toy to blow off some steam with... but its as fun as sketching something on a post-it note. It's mindless....

To accuse Nintendo's GameBoy of being "bad" because "you couldn't see the screen" is pomposity held paramount beyond standards that someone who combined MARIO and COLBERT for his nickname would care to approach. There is a part of me that wishes to pull a Lewis Black and yell "THEY RELEASED IT IN 1989 YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE!!!"
I was talking about the 1st Gameboy Advance. I could see the Gameboy just fine.

Yet the reason why I like Nintendo more than I'll ever attempt to liking Xbox / PlayStation franchise stems from the fact that as a company that delivers games, they are consistent. That isn't enough to love something for, but being that Nintendo has yet to succumb to the term "predictable," I think that as long as I stick with their system (and just as with GameCube, their system alone), I do not see myself losing out.
First off, I'm confused... are they consistent? Or are they not predictable? Because those two things are opposites.

And second, "Consistent" isn’t good.

If I make a "Shit Sandwich" today, someone may like it... and hey that person may be a food critic... Now everyone wants a "Shit Sandwich" because it’s the new thing.

But when everyone realizes that it’s a freaking "Shit Sandwich". Then the fad dies, and as a smart business owner.. I should move on.

Closing Argument:

You see, Mario was great one day. But Mario never stopped being 2 Dimensional. Because of that, his followers are dwindling... and nostalgia is keeping the poor plumber alive because the "Bit Gen" is in. But when that dies... Nintendo better have something better up their sleeve than a hardware gimmick to revitalize their franchises.

Immersion is mental. It doesn’t matter if it’s a real person in a movie, or an animated Disney movie. People become immersed, and in turn become emotionally involved in joy, sadness, anger or fear. The mind can play tricks on you, and game companies can exploit this tricks to make you a little more immersed… but the rest comes from just being a damn good game. Something that make you relate to the protagonist, and something that connects you to the moving object on the screen.

“Connection is Immersion.“

I don’t want to watch Mario, Samus or Link anymore… I want to be Mario, Samus or Link. I want to feel what they’re going through and understand why I need to retrieve more items to be able to get past something.

-I don’t want a “Voice of God” to tell me I can’t pick up that rock because its too heavy, I want it to BE too heavy.
-I don’t want “Fate” to teleport me from inside the Mushroom Kingdom to 100 feet Underwater anymore, I want to run out of the castle and jump in the river and swim into the lake to find the next castle to save MY princess.
-I don’t want my only reason to live, is to exterminate a colony of creatures on a planet because they stole my ability to scrunch into a ball and roll around. I want to experience the feeling of loss and the rage of revenge.

A Gimmicky controller isn’t going to fix this. New, better graphics doesn’t fix this. Better sound doesn’t fix this.

Fix the games, Nintendo.

[Strell]

God, Juka.

All of your arguments are "my opinion != what Nintendo does, and therefore it sucks."

The fact that you don't realize this is insane.

To top it off, you throw around a lot of nonsense arguments about how everything Nintendo does is a gimmick, how they don't evolve at all, etc etc etc.

I just can't do this anymore. I can't deal with the bullshit N gets that conveniently is never leveled at everyone else.

This is the company that rebuilt an industry, ushered in all sorts of gameplay foundations, revolutionized everything a few times, and has been mercilessly copied over and over and over. This is the company that is the most profitable, that attempts to appeal to everyone, and that is never satisfied with shoveling down system version 2.0. This is the company that does X, everyone tells them it's bullshit and laughs at them, and then 3-4 years later when everyone else does it, it's heralded as amazingly innovative. Not only that, but by the time they are doing X, they are doing it a third as well as Nintendo did it the first time.

And throughout ALL of that, Nintendo just keeps its trap fucking shut and doesn't complain. They don't whine about how profits are up or down 4%, they don't shovel down 4-5 franchise sequels a year + 4-5 other series that are either spinoffs or total ripoffs, they don't bitch about how we need more/less of this or that, and they don't dick around with idiotic attempts to promise the fucking moon.

I really can't argue on their behalf anymore. They've lost. They've lost to all the people who made up their minds a few years ago and just absolutely refuse to come out of the shells they've constructed.

So screw it. I'm not going to refute your post. I just don't have the fucking energy.

To everyone fitting into this group, don't get a Wii. I don't want to put up with your asinine whiny bullshit online, I don't to hear you bitch about how Mario's hat is still red, I don't want to listen to a juvenile rant about how Mario needs a gun, about how Samus isn't parading around with big breasts, about how Luigi needs to punch Mario in the face, about how the Princess needs to stop fucking getting kidnapped, about how Toad is probably gay, about how a sequel to a game that came out 10+ years ago is "milking the franchise," about how we need 14 Smash Bros a year BUT that such is milking, etc etc etc etc etc etc fucking etc.

Don't do it. The last thing I need is some fucking pansy telling me he can't handle the system because his arms will get too tired. Or any other fucking weak stupid bottom-of-the-barrel bullshit argument that you pull out of your ass because I guess that sensation is completely pleasureable to you.

Fucking Nintendo could do the same thing it has done the last 10 years - which is LOSE MARKET SHARE - beacuse they can't compete with their image, with their competitor's third party support, and with their competitors monetary resources.

OR THEY COULD FUCKING TRY SOEMTHING NEW.

Jesus. And STILL people would bitch that they aren't doing EXACTLY WHAT THEY THINK NINTENDO NEEDS TO DO. And you know what? This is why Nintendo is giving you all the big middle finger by doing shit the way they want - with a new interface and a goofy name. Cuz they fucking are trying, and if they go out, their death is peppered with a lot of goddamn tenacity and the biggest fucking balls you've ever seen.

And yet people STILL bitch.

Fine. Then don't get it.

Just stfu and don't get it.

Why? Because I'm damn well sure there's other people who will happily give it a shot, gamer and nongamer alike, and I'd much rather think I'm enjoying something with people who might be willing to leave their fucking comfort sphere and assgroove-laden couch and computer chair to just stfu and play games with.

That's the whole fucking point.

So stfu.

Fuck.

[Chacrana]

H...h... holy shit, dude.

That's pretty much exactly how I feel right now. I no longer have any interest in trying to refute peoples' baseless or outright stupid claims against Nintendo... there's really no end to it.

[Who's The Twitch Now?]

You make a decent point, Mooky, about characters in games being 1-dimensional. But do you know what? I don't mind if they are one dimensional. I don't mind if Link is a Jedi master the first time he picks up a dagger, because as long as I experience quality GAMEPLAY while playing as a 1-dimensional 11-year-old with a katana, I'll be satisfied.

Your main argument about the feeling of "Immersion" is something akin to, "Oh, that's the same animation they used last time. And there it is again. This game sucks - It's not real enough."

You want real, don't play videogames. If you play videogames, you might just get such unholy sins against mankind as "Artistic interpretation" or "Stylized combat."

You didn't complain when you saw all those bitchin' kung fu and sci-fi movies, did you? Cause that's what they have; stylization. As a side note, most people were BLOWN AWAY by The Matrix in 1999, but few know that the vast majority of the story elements were stolen from a sci-fi novel Neuromancer, written in the early 80s, and what was left was "Unbelievable philosophy, like a new-age Bible." People couldn't see the plaijurism and the 1-dimensionalism. They only saw the amazing flips and stoppage of time. This is an excellent analogy, because it shows that the vast majority of people don't care about Shakespearian characters and drama, as long as they're having fun.

And Nintendo provides fun, in excess.

[Mookyjooky]

God, Juka.

All of your arguments are "my opinion != what Nintendo does, and therefore it sucks."

The fact that you don't realize this is insane.

To top it off, you throw around a lot of nonsense arguments about how everything Nintendo does is a gimmick, how they don't evolve at all, etc etc etc.

I just can't do this anymore. I can't deal with the bullshit N gets that conveniently is never leveled at everyone else.

This is the company that rebuilt an industry, ushered in all sorts of gameplay foundations, revolutionized everything a few times, and has been mercilessly copied over and over and over. This is the company that is the most profitable, that attempts to appeal to everyone, and that is never satisfied with shoveling down system version 2.0. This is the company that doesn't X, everyone tells them it's bullshit and laughs at them, and then 3-4 years later when everyone else does it, it's heralded as amazingly innovative. Not only that, but by the time they are doing X, they are doing it a third as well as Nintendo did it the first time.

And throughout ALL of that, Nintendo just keeps its trap fucking shut and doesn't complain. They don't whine about how profits are up or down 4%, they don't shovel down 4-5 franchise sequels a year + 4-5 other series that are either spinoffs or total ripoffs, they don't bitch about how we need more/less of this or that, and they don't dick around with idiotic attempts to promise the fucking moon.

I really can't argue on their behalf anymore. They've lost. They've lost to all the people who made up their minds a few years ago and just absolutely refuse to come out of the shells they've constructed.

So screw it. I'm not going to refute your post. I just don't have the fucking energy.

To everyone fitting into this group, don't get a Wii. I don't want to put up with your asinine whiny bullshit online, I don't to hear you bitch about how Mario's hat is still red, I don't want to listen to a juvenile rant about how Mario needs a gun, about how Samus isn't parading around with big breasts, about how Luigi needs to punch Mario in the face, about how the Princess needs to stop fucking getting kidnapped, about how Toad is probably gay, about how a sequel to a game that came out 10+ years ago is "milking the franchise," about how we need 14 Smash Bros a year BUT that such is milking, etc etc etc etc etc etc fucking etc.

Don't do it. The last thing I need is some fucking pansy telling me he can't handle the system because his arms will get too tired.

Fine. Then don't get it.

Just stfu and don't get it.

Why? Because I'm damn well sure there's other people who will happily give it a shot, gamer and nongamer alike, and I'd much rather think I'm enjoying something with people who might be willing to leave their fucking comfort sphere and assgroove-laden couch and computer chair to just stfu and play games with.

That's the whole fucking point.

So stfu.

Fuck.

Wow, I dont remember once talking about changing the characters, just exploring them. If Batman Begins came out 2 years ago, and Batman was still being played by Adam West you'd be like WTF too.

Batman is still Batman, awesome and as Iconic as ever... but changed and evolved.

Also, Nintendo DID revolutionize the industry, which is why I'm rooting for them to do it again. I just believe that having a light gun with controls on top isnt the answer... its in the games.

You're blowing up for no reason, and assuming many things I've never said. You've defended Nintendo, but never gave reason. You've attacked me, (you know I say some crazy shit) but I've kept my cool, to have a level headed conversation about Nintendo.

I want Nintendo to grow... if you feel that having a light gun with controls on top is innovative and immersive... tell me why. Dont act like an idiot attacking me and denouncing everyone because they dont share you're point of view.

I wanted a sequel to their highest selling game in 5 years. Nothing more.

Out of the 3 major Nintendo fanatics who have spoke on Nintendo's behalf... not a one of them had a reason or answer for anything... they've all just personally attacked me and now you've basically just slammed everyone who doesnt think like you.

I wanted to have a serious debate, and to be honest Strell, I thought you would win everyone over. Instead you've exploded this into a flame war, but a flame war you fight alone in.

I'm not following you in, and now, back to the debate.

This Generation of gaming isnt going to rely on graphics, which Nintendo made a safe bet in that corner. It'll rely on immersion... another safe bet. But going to see a movie in 3D isnt more immersing, it's distracting... and adding two controllers to play a game isnt immersing either. If you add to one side, you take some off the other side.

Its the media law of balance. It works for all media.

If you were to take all of otis redding's music and remaster it completely taking out all pops and crackles... you lose something in the ambiance.

When you take a stage musical and make it into a movie, you lose some of the "pop" or "flare".

If you were to take out the artist who pencils "The Walking Dead" and replace it with Michael Turner (Clean "pointy" artist of Fathom) you lose the grit... Same reason why, Jim Lee and Frank Miller's new Batman book sucks... they're both so good at what they do.. but together the balance is screwed.

When you add a stylus, and are missing buttons to Mario 64, you lose full range of motion and camera movement.

---------------------------

Can Nintendo take this gamble and win? Tell me why. Dont flame or attack me, because I wont bite back. Be an adult.

[Genocidal]

about how Luigi needs to punch Mario in the faceCome on now, you know he deserves it. You're only defending Mario's honor because of your avatar! :booty:

[Strell]

Also, Nintendo DID revolutionize the industry, which is why I'm rooting for them to do it again. I just believe that having a light gun with controls on top isnt the answer... its in the games.

This is why I won't respond further.

Fuck it.

[Mookyjooky]

You make a decent point, Mooky, about characters in games being 1-dimensional. But do you know what? I don't mind if they are one dimensional. I don't mind if Link is a Jedi master the first time he picks up a dagger, because as long as I experience quality GAMEPLAY while playing as a 1-dimensional 11-year-old with a katana, I'll be satisfied.

Your main argument about the feeling of "Immersion" is something akin to, "Oh, that's the same animation they used last time. And there it is again. This game sucks - It's not real enough."

You want real, don't play videogames. If you play videogames, you might just get such unholy sins against mankind as "Artistic interpretation" or "Stylized combat."

You didn't complain when you saw all those bitchin' kung fu and sci-fi movies, did you? Cause that's what they have; stylization. As a side note, most people were BLOWN AWAY by The Matrix in 1999, but few know that the vast majority of the story elements were stolen from a sci-fi novel Neuromancer, written in the early 80s, and what was left was "Unbelievable philosophy, like a new-age Bible." People couldn't see the plaijurism and the 1-dimensionalism. They only saw the amazing flips and stoppage of time. This is an excellent analogy, because it shows that the vast majority of people don't care about Shakespearian characters and drama, as long as they're having fun.

And Nintendo provides fun, in excess.

I'm not looking for realism, I'm looking for a wider artistic palette.

The Matrix was cool at first glance for Stylized Combat... thats what brought you in... you stayed for the story. Think I'm wrong? Then tell me why the next two in the series weren't as good? They had A LOT more action in them. What happened?

Artistic expression is based in reality, go to far to one side of the spectrum and you start to lose people... dont go far enough... and the fantasy is gone.

Whats the point of having a cool controller when you're character still runs face first into wall and manically flips when you jump more than once? These were great ideas in 96, because 3D was new and cool. Now its retarded. And the fact that the "artists" didnt take the time to make Mario brace himself from running straight into a wall or grab onto a ledge from almost falling, instead of everyjump being prefect and every grab perfect is TOO stylized and lacks reality. Those "artists" arent "artists" at all then are they? We have the technology... so why isnt Mario reacting realistically to his surrounding yet? Many games do this already.

I just want fluid animation. Overdoing everything is boring.

What to see an example of too much? Watch Mummy Returns. Watch how after an hour you dont even care about CG anymore. Thats how it feels to me when I play Nintendo games.

Nintendo is awesome with a good polish on their games, no doubt about that...

But its easier to polish a Voltswagon Bug, than a Lamborgini.

[Mookyjooky]

This is why I won't respond further.

Fuck it.

You just did.

[Who's The Twitch Now?]

Mooky, if you need a real reason as to why the Wii is innovative, and no one's comments early on in this thread could help you to understand, then maybe you'll just never get it. I'm personally excited about the Wii because my mind is wandering and being overwhelmed with possibilities, and there's no telling what will be done and when. We have no way of knowing if it will get repetitive and more gimmicky, but when the possibilities just don't spark your mind, maybe the Wii isn't for you. Maybe it's for people who want to be amazed, and want to take the risk of buying a new product because of all the potential, and not because they have predetermined cold, hard facts about what they're going to be getting.

[Mookyjooky]

Mooky, if you need a real reason as to why the Wii is innovative, and no one's comments early on in this thread could help you to understand, then maybe you'll just never get it. I'm personally excited about the Wii because my mind is wandering and being overwhelmed with possibilities, and there's no telling what will be done and when. We have no way of knowing if it will get repetitive and more gimmicky, but when the possibilities just don't spark your mind, maybe the Wii isn't for you. Maybe it's for people who want to be amazed, and want to take the risk of buying a new product because of all the potential, and not because they have predetermined cold, hard facts about what they're going to be getting.

I'll be getting the Wii, avoiding the PS3 altogether. I feel that if Nintendo has a chance to turn it all around and end back up top.

But then I see E3, and I see the same damn games, played the same damn way... but instead of pressing a button to jump you lift the controller and I go... wait a second... Mario is still the same old Mario games, and Zelda is the Zelda game I've seen for the last 3 years...

I'm torn, I want to buy the system because I love nintendo and love the idea of virtual system and everything... but I cant help but get that sinking feeling that this is a marketing ploy and not really the ushering in of a new age.

We'll see, so far it looks decent... but I was expecting the worlds biggest gaming icons to evolve... but it just looks like the same old shit.

When I buy the Wii, if I'm wrong... I'll ressurect this thread and say so. I have no problem of doing so... I've stood corrected before and admitted it publically. But if I buy a $250 system, and then have to buy a seperate perifrial for every single game and I have to jump through hoops over something thats just a glorified gamecube, I'll be pissed.

I've had some conserns, but thanks for just attacking me or blowing me off. It's good to see that the Nintendo Bandwagon is strong as ever. Now just let me know why you're on it.

[SMMM]

Also, Nintendo DID revolutionize the industry, which is why I'm rooting for them to do it again. I just believe that having a light gun with controls on top isnt the answer... its in the games.



This simple little sentence basically moots your entire argument. You obviously don't understand fuck about the capabilities of the Wii. But you're right, it is in the games, and the Wii will be able to allow the games to explore new areas of gameplay that have never been experienced before. How many genres were created this generation compared to the last few? Not very many, I believe. And it'll only be fewer next-gen for the PS3/360. The Wii will allow new genres to be created. The developers just need to be clever. Sure, there will be a ton of gimmicky games, a thousand baseball/golf/tennis games...but it's not like we already have a ton of that shit already on the current systems. And look at this way, this might be the first time I actually buy a Baseball game since the NES. Mainly because they never carried the real feel of it, and it was always "Timing + Press Button", which I always thought was boring as hell. I'd take a "gimmicky" version over that any day. But again, this is only another side of Wii. Immersion is only one of the key factors.

[epobirs]

You make a decent point, Mooky, about characters in games being 1-dimensional. But do you know what? I don't mind if they are one dimensional. I don't mind if Link is a Jedi master the first time he picks up a dagger, because as long as I experience quality GAMEPLAY while playing as a 1-dimensional 11-year-old with a katana, I'll be satisfied.

Your main argument about the feeling of "Immersion" is something akin to, "Oh, that's the same animation they used last time. And there it is again. This game sucks - It's not real enough."

You want real, don't play videogames. If you play videogames, you might just get such unholy sins against mankind as "Artistic interpretation" or "Stylized combat."

You didn't complain when you saw all those bitchin' kung fu and sci-fi movies, did you? Cause that's what they have; stylization. As a side note, most people were BLOWN AWAY by The Matrix in 1999, but few know that the vast majority of the story elements were stolen from a sci-fi novel Neuromancer, written in the early 80s, and what was left was "Unbelievable philosophy, like a new-age Bible." People couldn't see the plaijurism and the 1-dimensionalism. They only saw the amazing flips and stoppage of time. This is an excellent analogy, because it shows that the vast majority of people don't care about Shakespearian characters and drama, as long as they're having fun.

And Nintendo provides fun, in excess.

People didn't see that way because it isn't true. William Gibson coined the term cyberspace but invented nothing else in 'Neuromancer.' It wan't about new ideas, it was about writing style. Gibson had a more literary bent than most SF writiers, so was taken seriously by people who otherwise look askance at SF. Besides, Neal Stephenson's 'Snow Crash' was likely a greater influence. (Stephenson has a problem ending stories but he at least wraps up most of the loose ends, which is more than can be said for the Wachowskis.)

An episode of the shortlived series Harlan Ellison created in the early 70s, 'The Starlost,' had a plot device that was cyberspace in everything but name and also lent some inspiration to 'Tron.' That is only one of many examples. Much like the term 'virtual reality,' the concept was around for a very long time before someone coined a term and started treating as a serious subject. When Ray Bradbury in the 1950s wrote a story in which a children's playroom simulated the African savannah so realistically that they could have lions kill their parents and thus enjoy playtime forever, it was VR in everything but name.


THe problem with the following Matrix movies is not that they overemphsized action over story. It was just that the story was awful. The series suffered from one of the worst plagues on the Big Concept plot. There isn't always a satisfactory ending known to the author. The same thing happened to the anime series 'Big O.' It became a completely self-contradictory mess. The last minute of the last episode seemed to be the writer throwing up his hands and saying, "I give up. I'm just going to put everything back where I found it and pretend none of this ever happened."

[Who's The Twitch Now?]

Believe me, I know Neuromancer is not the only influence on the Matrix. There are countless sources, not all of which were used for the plot. A year before the Matrix was released, the far superior Dark City came out, and was all but overlooked. Not only was it almost the exact same concept, but many scenes were stolen directly and put in the Matrix, in some cases even using the same sets. But this is not what this thread is about.

Mooky, in my last post, I wasn't trying to flame you. I was merely trying to put a rational end to the discussion based on your earlier posts. The idea that you still think I'm attacking you, when you have shown nothing but contempt for me this whole time, even when I'm being just as calm and collected as you, is kind of disappointing. You have a lot of interesting points, but your unwillingness to listen to others and accept their input in more ways than "Wrong" or "Attacking," is truly what put a damper on this thread. I may have more to say later, but for now I'm going to let you make your own decision, as it's obvious you won't let anyone else influence it.

[chosen1s]

I agree with the argument that it's about the games. There's plenty of innovation out there. Virtual Boy anyone? I believe Atari was the first with analog sticks and look where that got them. It has to translate into games that are more fun that games on other systems and that's that.

As for why Nintendo doesn't just throw in the towel, etc. - I like anything that keeps Nintendo at odds with the competition. I like their unique perspective on gaming. I like that they want to go in other directions form the competition. I like Pikmin, etc. And the farther Nintendo stays from a "Unified" video game world the better. Something was clearly lost when the Dreamcast died. You can always say "well, they just focus on the games now" but I don't believe it's a one-to-one trade. I'd rather have a quilt than a melting pot in the world of video games.

[SMMM]

Believe me, I know Neuromancer is not the only influence on the Matrix. There are countless sources, not all of which were used for the plot. A year before the Matrix was released, the far superior Dark City came out, and was all but overlooked. Not only was it almost the exact same concept, but many scenes were stolen directly and put in the Matrix, in some cases even using the same sets. But this is not what this thread is about.

Mooky, in my last post, I wasn't trying to flame you. I was merely trying to put a rational end to the discussion based on your earlier posts. The idea that you still think I'm attacking you, when you have shown nothing but contempt for me this whole time, even when I'm being just as calm and collected as you, is kind of disappointing. You have a lot of interesting points, but your unwillingness to listen to others and accept their input in more ways than "Wrong" or "Attacking," is truly what put a damper on this thread. I may have more to say later, but for now I'm going to let you make your own decision, as it's obvious you won't let anyone else influence it.

Not to mention they also directly took a couple scenes from the first Ghost in the Shell movie. They even admitted to it.

[jer7583]

Mooky is just forever unable to understand. He seems like one of those spoiled playstation generation kids who want games to gravitate more towards being movie-like or that hollywood is the ultimate example for gaming to take on. Guess what. Videogames are different than movies/Television.

Videogames have the added benefit of being mentally and phsically immersive. The problem is that this concept is still in its infancy. NOBODY really understands how to create something that immerses you while still maintining interactivity well. Some games show hints of it and that's a good thing, but we've got a long way to go. But guess what, videogames have only been around for 30-40 years. And videogames that are able to portray believably detailed characters are even more recent.

Anyway, back to the concept of mental/physical immersion. The Wii may not work. It may be a complete failure and the concept might just not catch on. But i really don't understand how you can't applaud Nintendo for trying to merge the mental and physical immersion that videogames have, rather than just limiting them to being a hollywood copycat, and not their own form of entertainment. Nobody knows how or if videogames can set themselves apart from other forms of entertainment, but Wii is one way of exploring those possibilities, success or not. And without experimentation, we'd still be watching vaudville plays, and slapstick comedy movies made just to watch things move on a screen.

Shooting nintendo's efforts down by calling it "a lightgun with buttons" just shows how ignorant you are to the concept behind Wii. Microsoft and Sony aren't doing shit to change videogames or explore their possibilities. They're just serving up the same ol shit on a shinier plate.

That you are ignorant to that because you can't get over that mario still jumps on enemies heads and link still swings a sword is your own fault. You will never get it, until it's already passed you by. Maybe that's just how it is. Not everyone is fit to get on board with new innovations and changes in forms of media.

I personally think that the playstation MTV generation fucks who are stuck thinking Final Fantasy is the height of artistic expression in videogames are about to be left behind. Their time is over, they're no longer needed. They got videogames into the mainstream, now games can truely show the world what they have to offer.

[Mookyjooky]

Mooky is just forever unable to understand. He seems like one of those spoiled playstation generation kids who want games to gravitate more towards being movie-like or that hollywood is the ultimate example for gaming to take on. Guess what. Videogames are different than movies/Television.

Videogames have the added benefit of being mentally and phsically immersive. The problem is that this concept is still in its infancy. NOBODY really understands how to create something that immerses you while still maintining interactivity well. Some games show hints of it and that's a good thing, but we've got a long way to go. But guess what, videogames have only been around for 30-40 years. And videogames that are able to portray believably detailed characters are even more recent.

Anyway, back to the concept of mental/physical immersion. The Wii may not work. It may be a complete failure and the concept might just not catch on. But i really don't understand how you can't applaud Nintendo for trying to merge the mental and physical immersion that videogames have, rather than just limiting them to being a hollywood copycat, and not their own form of entertainment. Nobody knows how or if videogames can set themselves apart from other forms of entertainment, but Wii is one way of exploring those possibilities, success or not. And without experimentation, we'd still be watching vaudville plays, and slapstick comedy movies made just to watch things move on a screen.

Shooting nintendo's efforts down by calling it "a lightgun with buttons" just shows how ignorant you are to the concept behind Wii. Microsoft and Sony aren't doing shit to change videogames or explore their possibilities. They're just serving up the same ol shit on a shinier plate.

That you are ignorant to that because you can't get over that mario still jumps on enemies heads and link still swings a sword is your own fault. You will never get it, until it's already passed you by. Maybe that's just how it is. Not everyone is fit to get on board with new innovations and changes in forms of media.

I personally think that the playstation MTV generation fucks who are stuck thinking Final Fantasy is the height of artistic expression in videogames are about to be left behind. Their time is over, they're no longer needed. They got videogames into the mainstream, now games can truely show the world what they have to offer.

I'm 25, my favorite types of games are 2D shmups and 2D fighters. I cut my teeth on a 2600. My first personal console was a Nintendo. I had a Saturn, and have always hated Playstation. My favorite game is Chrono Trigger. I own a Gamecube, DS, and Xbox 360. I used to draw Mario everywhere as a kid.

If I'm a kid, how old are you?

The movie industry has experimented, and 3D movies and smell-o-vision still hasnt become standard.

We'll see as it comes... thanks for adding yourself to the Nintendo Fanboys who personally attack me for not sharing your view list. Go nintendo.

[jer7583]

You totally proved your hardcore street cred by prefering 2D games. You didn't, however answer my question about if you think hollywood/film should be videogames' role model or ideal. This, more than even your personal game preferences, will show how you and I (and many others) are fundamentally unable to agree. And there's not really anything wrong with that, except that it's my opinion that following hollywood will cause gaming to stay as the "little brother" to movies/books/etc. and ignored by the majority of (american) society.

I think 2D shmups are such an overplayed genre, by the way. Most people(not saying you) claim to love these games do it because they think it makes them look old school or different. I personally wouldn't waste any more of my money or time on 2D shmups.. i've played it a million times already.

Just think, in 20 years we'll have these FPS aplogists claiming how they're hardcore because their favorite genre is FPS when that trend has gone the way of 2D shmups.

2D fighters are another thing entirely. Still damn fun, but there hasn't been a worthwhile one since Street Fighter 3, imho. Even guilty gear has run it's course.

[Sofa King Kool]

This entire thread has become pointless. Now it's just a huge back and forth arguement filled with posts that have become way to arduous to read and still care about by the time your done reading them.

[Mookyjooky]

....answer my question about if you think hollywood/film should be videogames' role model or ideal.

I agree that Video games are NOT movies. Personally, I dont believe in long drawn out cut-scenes at all.. I feel that you can get across the same ideas without ever making the game give up control. Now a cutscene or two thats brief 1-2 mins here and there... I can understand... But no Metal Gear Solid 2's.

This, more than even your personal game preferences, will show how you and I (and many others) are fundamentally unable to agree. And there's not really anything wrong with that, except that it's my opinion that following hollywood will cause gaming to stay as the "little brother" to movies/books/etc. and ignored by the majority of (american) society.

I believe that gaming is the evolution of popular media. Its the "Step up" from books. Yes, It's still in its infantcy... but my biggest problem in games is lack of realistic movement. Not if Link still swings a sword, 20 years later. I complete love Nintendo's idea of making the controller more accessible to the general public. I dont know if the "Wiimote" is really what I had in mind... but Nintendo's been lowering the button quotent since the N64.

I just believe that "immersion" in video games is in a realistic, believable world. Something Nintendo hasnt really focused on in a while. Trees swaying in the wind, getting your character's clothing dirty, NPC's that are more than just a palette swap. A fun, multi-directional story would be nice, something that didnt feel like it was on rails. I believe these can be fixed for all game companies, but Nintendo's game worlds just seem extra cold and robotic.

Games dont have to be movies, but the "game world" doesnt have to have the cold, uninviting feel of being on a movie set.

I think 2D shmups are such an overplayed genre, by the way. Most people(not saying you) claim to love these games do it because they think it makes them look old school or different. I personally wouldn't waste any more of my money or time on 2D shmups.. i've played it a million times already.

2D fighters are another thing entirely. Still damn fun, but there hasn't been a worthwhile one since Street Fighter 3, imho. Even guilty gear has run it's course.

Well, there are alot of very good 3D games as well. And I'm no FPS hater... (playing Prey now). But there was something definatly lost between dimentional upgrade. But that's just my opinions, and I'm just a child raised in the 2D age.

You're right about 2D Fighters though, I never was a fan of Guilty Gear, I felt that the characters were either sci-fi generic or annoying... and the game lacked the soul earlier Capcom fighters seemed to have. Street Fighter 3 was a really good fighter, but these days I'm just so damn sick of it... (Too many hours)

I think my big issue with the Big N isnt their games. I love many of thier games, I just dont feel that I get my $50 bucks worth. The Wii just feels like an even further path down that road. We'll be shelling out $50 for Wiimote Minigames or some "Toy" that uses the Wiimote's capabilities.

[Mookyjooky]

Looks like Friend-codes on the Wii. Awesome. Bout time for some disapointing news. Cant wait for the official word that Zelda is going to be Wii exclusive and it wont take personal smart media but a special Nintendo brand smart media that's twice the price for the same amount of storage.

[onetrackmind]

I agree with some of your points mooky. I'm looking forward to the Wii but i'm not fully convinced its going to give me a gameplay experience i'm going to enjoy after the novelty of it wears off.

I love my DS, but the games that utilize the touch screen are the ones that i get bored with faster. Dont misinterpret what im saying, they're still good games but after awhile the gimmick of the touch screen isn't what keeps me in love with my DS.

I'll tell you what i hate, people on the Nintendo Wii bandwagon and their elitest attitude because they "get it." Just because the Wii appeals to you doesn't make you "smart." Its all so fucking pretentious, no one voicing their opinion in this thread has had a chance to even play the system yet.

[MarioColbert]

Mookyjooky:

As glad as I am that you've read my post, you have obviously missed the sarcasm underlying the extreme statements. I thought that as a person who has been posting nothing but "anti Nintendo marketing," you'd enjoy a direct pro-marketing "rebuttal," but alas, I was wrong. You just called me Nintendo's marketing whore, made me smile, and that about wraps it up.

However, I don't understand your desire to have an "argument" about this: this is hardly much else than you providing a list of your pet peeves with Nintendo and the gaming industry in general. As such, they are great: they are bitter, extreme, personal, and delivered with cold nonchalance. (The only thing is: you may want to re-read your posts on top of using a spellchecker, at the very least when poking fun of other people's posts.)

Your stance on "character development" and "immersion" is laughable, because no, not every film out there is immersive. Film-like character development is not possible in video games, not that it hasn't been tried before. Interactive movie genre has been long defeated by piss poor sales (thank god), and I find it rather ironic that you've cited Shadow of the Colossus, a game with a cliche "damsel in distress" setup, and total lack of any character development to speak of, as your example of immersive experience. Shadow of the Colossus is a very beautiful arcade game, and I know I'm "the strange one" for being unimpressed with it. Every single one of my friends loves that game, and before you proceed to "prove" me wrong, consider that people that I love and share a lot of time with have failed to do so. I tried it, I said "meh," and I won't play it again.

I think what adds to my negative perception of your posts, is your arrogance. I grew up playing adventure games, with classics like Space Quest and Monkey Island (I hope you heard of those) being an important part of my childhood. I am willing to tell you that I would absolutely love to have Gilbert make Monkey Island: NEXT, and Crowe/Murphy team get together for Space Quest 7. Unfortunately, that will never happen. There have been multiple videogame companies that have delivered (in accordance to my taste and "fanboyism") perfect videogame entertainment for years, and they no longer exist.

You say that there isn't enough Mario, that Zelda is not growing up to be what you want, and that Wii Controller isn't the answer. I won't get into why you've got the question wrong, or care to explain that "immersion is purely mental" is plain wrong. At least you can still get Mario and Zelda, while disliking them. I'm not saying you should be grateful for bad games, or am I saing that you should feel "happier" that they are available for you, if you find them generic and uninspiring. All I'm saying is that at the very least, you can't be sad that they've been undone, despite having people that have found them to be perfect for what they were.

Perhaps that is the middle ground where you and I can agree: there are things that we both want that a lot of other people do not, and because of that fact alone, the industry will always go by "majority rule" and will leave certain ones behind. After all, the companies are there to first and foremost make some money, and just as with film, music, and any other form of art, that will remain to be a block between those seeking true innovation and those who are looking for a layman's good time.

But there's one more thing: unlike you, I like the Nintendo approach. And consistency is good, if they are consistent at making great games. Nintendo franchises are popular, yet they are popular for a pretty good damn reason: the character's adventures stay with a seal of power. I understand that there are lots of things that you dislike about Nintendo today, and perhaps you should look elsewhere for entertainment. Despite the fact that fans of Space Quest still exist, there will not be another "official" Space Quest made by the original "Two Guys from Andromeda," and the reason for that is that there were enough of assholes like you saying the same kind of bullshit like what your posts generally represent. At the right time. At the right place. And loudly enough for the company in debt to overhear. But still.

Perhaps I should point out that as a person who also likes those games you've hated on, I would like them to continue. That is to say, I'd like for Link to not speak, I'd like for Mario to keep being the italian plumber jumperman, and I don't want realistic combat in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. I also think that Nintendo's take on alternative control helps immersion, in the same way that it helps to turn off the lights when watching a movie, or to have people shut up when listening to music. Having to worry less about the way you control your character is just as much of an innovation as being able to see your videogame avatar better. Sure, that's MY opinion, and according to you it's dumb and it stinks, and I just say that because Nintendo have managed to brainwash me.

But, I'd like to tell you: Nintendo fans want Nintendo to succeed. Despite their mistakes, and despite their major fuck-ups. Because yes, they are better than their competition. And their games are more fun and more unique than other stuff on the market. I don't feel like rationalizing that, because my point is that _I FUCKING LIKE IT_.


Oh yeah, last thing: I will not stop using "leet speek" when making up mock-quotes of my opposition. I'll use it more now just to piss you off. And as much as I appreciate your opinion on what's funny and what's not, I'm going to be the judge of that when it comes to editing my post. Tough shit, last I checked your name is Moo-something, and the one next to my post is MarioColbert. I will tell you, however, that using colors as obnoxiously as you do is about the most NOT funniest thing you can do.

[botticus]

Looks like Friend-codes on the Wii. Awesome. Bout time for some disapointing news. Cant wait for the official word that Zelda is going to be Wii exclusive and it wont take personal smart media but a special Nintendo brand smart media that's twice the price for the same amount of storage.
Dude... get over it. Now you're just trolling in your own thread. Here I thought all the news so far was disappointing for you, or there wouldn't be a reason for this topic in the first place.

There comes a point where you complain so much about the Wii, all the while saying you're going to buy it anyway, that you become the people you've railing against, buying Nintendo no matter what.

[Mookyjooky]

Dude... get over it. Now you're just trolling in your own thread. Here I thought all the news so far was disappointing for you, or there wouldn't be a reason for this topic in the first place.

There comes a point where you complain so much about the Wii, all the while saying you're going to buy it anyway, that you become the people you've railing against, buying Nintendo no matter what.

Good point. I wait till after launch and test it in stores. If it feels like console versions of DS games... I'll just set it aside till games that interest me come out.

I guess in the end, I DONT really get it. I'm skeptical, and Nintendo has been feeling really dull lately to me. The magic is gone, and profit and financial gain replaced it. I'm tired of picking Mario in the only 5 good games on the system... and the Wiimote feels so Gimmicky its rediculous.

After a 12-14 hour day of work, I dont feel like waving my arms around like an idiot and I dont play video games when I have the energy to do something more productive with my time. The Wii is not for me. My girlfriend on the other hand wont stop talking about. it.... =)

[RAMSTORIA]

dont buy one and shut up

[MarioColbert]

Good point. I wait till after launch and test it in stores. If it feels like console versions of DS games... I'll just set it aside till games that interest me come out.

I guess in the end, I DONT really get it. I'm skeptical, and Nintendo has been feeling really dull lately to me. The magic is gone, and profit and financial gain replaced it. I'm tired of picking Mario in the only 5 good games on the system... and the Wiimote feels so Gimmicky its rediculous.

After a 12-14 hour day of work, I dont feel like waving my arms around like an idiot and I dont play video games when I have the energy to do something more productive with my time. The Wii is not for me. My girlfriend on the other hand wont stop talking about. it.... =)

I know you probably don't want to take me seriously, but this is the best post of yours so far. I'm down with "only time will tell" sentiment, regardless of whether or not I will pick one up at launch.

If you don't mind me asking, though, what games apart from Shadow of the Colossus did you enjoy as of late? I agree with "magic is gone" idea, except for me it's not in Nintendo games (but with most of PC titles as of late). Any insight into what your top picks of this past generation are (you've reflected plenty on Nintendo franchises, yet a cross-platform list is what I'm asking for) would be appreciated.

[Mookyjooky]

dont buy one and shut up

Thanks for your ignorant reply. Who the fuck are you?

[paddlefoot]

Dual screen is a Gimmick... and the DS doesnt have enough titles that fully support the touch screen.


That gimmick is currently wiping the floor with it's nearest competitor.


BTW, Why don't people look at Sony's failures.

Mini-Disc (1991)--custom disc format, and used ATRAC audio compression, which is proprietary.
Sony Dynamic Digital Sound (1993)--a competitor to the Dolby Digital 5.1 standard.
Multi-Media Compact Disc (1994)--Sony's proprietary format for high-density optical storage, developed in conjunction with Phillips. Negotiations merged this format and Toshiba's Super Density disc format into what would become DVD.
Music Clip (1999)--Sony's first digital player, used ATRAC audio compression.
HiFD (1998)--a competitor to Iomega's Zip drive.
Memory Stick (1998)--proprietary memory device as a competitor to SD and Flash memory.
Super Audio CD (1999)--an optical disc format with higher fidelity than the CD.


Heck, a little over a year ago they released a 20 GB MP3 Player I was interested in. Then I find out it used the ATRAC audio compression, instead of regular MP3s. I was disgusted that Sony was still trying to shove their Mini-Disc format down my throat.

[Mookyjooky]

I know you probably don't want to take me seriously, but this is the best post of yours so far. I'm down with "only time will tell" sentiment, regardless of whether or not I will pick one up at launch.

If you don't mind me asking, though, what games apart from Shadow of the Colossus did you enjoy as of late? I agree with "magic is gone" idea, except for me it's not in Nintendo games (but with most of PC titles as of late). Any insight into what your top picks of this past generation are (you've reflected plenty on Nintendo franchises, yet a cross-platform list is what I'm asking for) would be appreciated.

Well, here's the problem with my list... but I'll come up with one. Soon...

I was getting out of gaming completely. After 6 million "urban" games and FPS's I am just tired of gaming all around. I walked in a EB downtown and at a whim picked up a new game. For the first time in years. I bought True Crime : New York City. (I dont know why, I never played the first one... I guess I just hate GTA and wanted to see what the fuss was about without playing GTA)

I put it in, played for 2 hours... put the controller down, got up and smoked a cig outside... walked back in and packed up all of my 5 consoles and 2 handhelds w/games and sold them all at gamestop.

I didnt play anything for months, and to be honest.. it was really nice.

Now, I had 2 PS2's, the old one, and my girlfriend had the thin one for Taiko Drum Master and Katamari... My girlfriend picked up the game I really wanted before I got rid of everything and told me to come over.

It was of course, Shadow of the Colossus.

It wasnt just the realistic movements, or the colossuses... it was the magic. The magic games lacked for so long, when it was a simple story and a simple play.

Now you'll notice right there, "Nintendo's got that!" - yeah, they do... but this was something different. Nintendo 8bit was like reading a novel, you had the basic idea of what you looked like and what was going on... but your imagination filled the rest. When graphics got better, and games got better... your imagination was used less and less.

To me, Nintendo 8bit games, were always a bit dark... maybe it was the color palette... but I loved the idea of Mario being in this wierd world like in SMB 2. It was so dark, and Mario was a shining light...

But mario become more and more colorful, and more and more vibrant... until the game looked like a bright, colorful eyesore.

By the time SM Sunshine came out, it looked like a 8 year old came up with it. And all the creatures were the same... nothing changed like the old SMB games did everytime a new one came out.

Then I saw this and got hope... this is my idea of Mario and Luigi... it's concept are of superstar saga -

http://www.nlgaming.com/games/1690/feature.jpg

That's the Super Mario Bros. I remember... a little darker palette, real feeling... has magic like a 40's Disney cartoon. I was hoping Nintendo would make something artistic and beautiful like this for their SMB console games... but you see Galaxy, and its the same damn model for Mario they've used for 5 years...

I used to be happy, scared, frantic, hopeful, etc, etc for Mario. Now I'm just happy. Granted, its nice to play a game that puts you in a good mood... but it doesnt challange you emotionally.

When I play Mario on the gamecube, this is what I see on the screen.

http://www.nightmarefactory.com/GC122.jpg

Its fun, colorful, slightly humorous, and it quickly puts you in a good mood. But look at it for 5 minutes or more and you get really tired fast of looking at it. Where the REAL fun?

Something exciting, like Mario textured like the concept art above running on a clay brick terrain, green pipes with cloudy blue skies above and Luigi following you stomping on goombas you miss or helping you get to higher places you cant jump... A world you can taste, and immediatly immerse yourself into.

Instead, it's bright and slightly irritating... I feel from Nintendo grace because Nintendo didnt communicate to me anymore with their high res. 3D models...

I dunno, I'll post a list of this gen faves later... back to work!

[FriskyTanuki]

Colbert, you rock. I know the psp statement was opinion, not fact, but I just hate that little shitty portable so much, and the rapstar wannabes to bling bling it off their neck more often than use it. Yes, i've seen this happen numerous times around here, and yes, i laugh hysterically whenever i see it.
You're saying you hate the PSP?! I could've sworn you've been singing its praises in any thread mentioning the PSP. I don't know what's real anymore. :cry:

[MarioColbert]

Mooky: since your post had big-ass pictures, I didn't want to "quote" it because I'm too lazy to edit them out, but I guess I'm not too lazy to type up this sentence... In any case, I am replying to you.


What's interesting, is that all the bullshit aside, I can more than relate to the whole "not playing videogames" deal. I've looked through the thread about posting your collection pics, but apart from maybe 15 GameCube games, and a lot of old (read: ancient) PC titles, I have ultimately nothing to show off.

I'm younger than you by a year or so (based on your response in this thread), but I've gone through multiple periods of not playing things at all. I own only one console and one hand held (you can guess what they are), and both are special to me, since the former was my first purchase ever with my first job in the US. The second was a birthday gift from the woman I'm marrying in February.

I was way more frustrated with games than you, when Sierra On-Line announced the immediate cancellation of Leisure Suit Larry 8 (LUST IN SPACE) and Space Quest VII (rumored to be called "The Return to Roman Numerals") back in 1999. When Full Throttle 2 and Sam and Max 2 (Freelance Police) were wiped out of existence, I knew that losing Ron Gilbert wasn't the worst thing that happened to LucasArts (and that was 2002 or so). I know this seems like I'm changing the subject away from Nintendo, but it is my firm belief that the truth in many of your statements apply more to the videogame industry in general, and I want to let you know, that even if you boycott, scream, fight, and bomb videogame boutiques in an act of terrorism in hopes of better character development in videogames - your voice is not likely to be heard.


Things that are truly "original" and "magical" to me are the bottom layer of the underdogs, and not because "that's totally cool." Playing through Psychonauts was an amazing experience, and despite the fact that arrogant fans are bitching Revolution Software out TO THIS DAY for it, I found Broken Sword 3: The Sleeping Dragon to be one of the best things I've played in forever. (Note: Syberia and Indigo Prophecy suck donkey balls, so no, being an "underdog" does not imply "instant awesome")


If I may make one statement that I really wish to be well understood, is that with age, the frequency of magical and unique objects appears to dissipate. My guess is that by the time you are too old to kick it, there are very few things worth kicking anymore, at the very least to this proverbial "you" that I'm referring to. With videogames, I doubt that most young adults our age today can be happy to what has become of their afterschool specials, and each and every console out there. (I got this from Nintendo: they're milking this nostalgia bit ferociously with the Virtual Console, and EXCITETruck, Duck Hunt 2, Donkey Kong Wii, etc.)

I knew what was up when I was showing the high quality trailer of Super Smash Bros. Brawl to my friends who have not seen it 'til then. No matter how cool Snake is, no matter how much of a tit outline you can spot on Zero Suit Samus, the biggest "HOLY SHIT" that I have ever heard was when Pit flew out and broke his bow into swords. It wasn't due to "immersion," or because everyone was dying to have him in there. (In fact, most everyone present did not think of Pit for at least 10 years or so....) It was because at that moment, every single fucking mid-20s asshole with a shitty job, or a stupid paper due the next day had a flashback to the time when you sat on the floor, being frustrated as shit at Kid Icarus. And that is about as happy as a video game thought can get.

My point is: this is your choice now. You either ride the nostalgia, or you give up completely. From where I'm sitting, your only other option is try to keep up with the younger enthusiasts, and feel constantly dissapointed.



And one last thing: having something like Psychonauts happen after years of really not digging anything... is still better than not playing Psychonauts at all. :)

[Lice]

games are supposed to be fun... What has this all turned into? I dont see why we all need to defend consoles as if we created them... just enjoy what you enjoy and go play.

[DarkNessBear]

Nintendo Fanboys tend to be more vicious then others, they seek out fights...

Just look at the PS3 forum compared to the Wii forum, in the Wii forum, there is one topic pointing out flaws in the console, and every nintendo fanboy and there cousin are coming here to debunk the fact...

In the PS3 forum, its countless annoyances by WII FANS! Yelling on top of their lungs on, "OMG! Have you seen Marios new overalls! PS3 cant do that!"

It sure gets old fast.

[botticus]

Nintendo Fanboys tend to be more vicious then others, they seek out fights...

Just look at the PS3 forum compared to the Wii forum, in the Wii forum, there is one topic pointing out flaws in the console, and every nintendo fanboy and there cousin are coming here to debunk the fact...

In the PS3 forum, its countless annoyances by WII FANS! Yelling on top of their lungs on, "OMG! Have you seen Marios new overalls! PS3 cant do that!"

It sure gets old fast.
Call me a Nintendo fanboy, but I think you just managed to illustrate this instead:

In the Wii forum, its annoyances by a PS3 FAN DarkNessBear bashing Wii FANS!
Or is posting silliness like this where you have not seeking out fights?

[DarkNessBear]

Call me a Nintendo fanboy, but I think you just managed to illustrate this instead:


Or is posting silliness like this where you have not seeking out fights?

I'm an exception to the point.

:roll:

But, than again anything you say to a Nintendo Fan makes them cry.

[Reality's Fringe]

Or is posting silliness like this where you have not seeking out fights?

Irony is a concept that does not exist on the internet. Of course, I guess I'm just blind to the difference between bitching about a price point and a system being ghey and for kidz.

[botticus]

I'm an exception to the point.

:roll:

But, than again anything you say to a Nintendo Fan makes them cry.
:-s

[Redeema]

I read through 4 pages of this and got tired so I skipped to the end I hope you don't hate me for it. I played the Wii at E3, it's not a gimmick, it's an entirely new way to play games. By the way, when is a gimmick not a gimmick anymore? Does the DS' success pretty much render the whole gimmick notion meaningless? Controls were tight and about as accurate as I would have hoped despite the fact that there were about 100 other Wii remotes in the area.

As for why not just release an add-on for the GameCube? Because add-ons don't work. Ask Sony how the HDD is doing for them.

Also, the GameCube has lots of games that appeal to a wide audience, the same can't be said for the Xbox, though PS2 has a better selection. If you're not happy with their games then maybe you need to look at yourself and ask "why aren't I happy?" Maybe some Deepak Chopra is in your future.

Also, everyone here who takes up the argument that Nintendo is "kiddy" continues to whine about why the system doesn't have certain games which are in fact "kiddy". (Smash Brothers is not a realistic game in case you didn't notice) You want more of certain games, but if they don't make those you get upset...you really can't have it both ways. You'll have to live with what you have and not get upset because they haven't made Kid Icarus 2 or Punch Out 2. I'm too occupied to look into who made all those games on your list, so I don't know if they could revive them if they wanted to, but I think the key is that maybe they don't for fear that people complain about either going too often to the well or for continuing to make kiddy games. No one has complained about a lack of Donkey Kong platforming games, why is that?

You know if you want to change the industry you can do one of two things, put your money where your mouth is and not buy games that support your feelings or make a better game.

I've had discussions with developer's producers or otherwise and they all admit that it's way too difficult to get a new Intellectual Property past the people who provide the funding. They'd prefer to have proven franchises/titles that they know will provide them their investment in return.

I get that you like Nintendo, but don't doubt that they know what they're doing, they are highly profitable and will continue with the DS and potentially the Wii. I've played the thing, it's great, I'll be in line on day one and it it's not for you then that's too bad, I'm sure they'd love your continued support, but I think they'll live without it just fine. I'll support them knowing that they're going to provide both me and my family with the type of gaming greatness that I've expected from them for 20 years now.

[furyk]

You'll have to live with what you have and not get upset because they haven't made Kid Icarus 2 or Punch Out 2.


Um, they did make a Punch Out 2, named Super Punch Out. Make it Uniracers as an old Nintendo game that really should have had a sequel years ago (honestly Nintendo, what the fuck).

Nintendo Fanboys tend to be more vicious then others, they seek out fights...

*cough*Dreamcast*hackwheeze*

Also, it's not that we're seeking out fights. We just have come to the collective realization that it doesn't matter how many drops of water you can see on a GIANT ENEMY CRAB. It matters if your game is fun to play, and right now a Wii is at least half the cost it is to have that fun if you decide to go the PS3 route.

In the PS3 forum, its countless annoyances by WII FANS! Yelling on top of their lungs on, "OMG! Have you seen Marios new overalls! PS3 cant do that!"

It sure gets old fast.

Case it point, if you're going the Nintendo route graphics aren't a priority. Plus, what would you be talking about in the PS3 forum without us? How great watching that pre-rend... in-game MGS 4 video was? I'm honestly curious what Sony fanboys would talk about if it wasn't defending the PS3.

[KaneRobot]

1.
2.
3.
4.
5. The DS is kind of nice.

This list is definitive. Do not argue with it, because you will be wrong.

[Strell]

1.
2.
3.
4.
5. The DS is kind of nice.

This list is definitive. Do not argue with it, because you will be wrong.

Actually, the Gizmondo is way better, and outsells the DS by a factor of 632 million.

Fo' realz.

[Corvin]

Wow this thread is a mess, I'm late to the party so excuse the old quotes. I just grabbed them as I saw fit.

I admittedly haven't read everything after the first page, so excuse me if I'm being redundant. I agree with everybody, especially Strell; You are using juvenile, meaningless excuses and arguments to prove to yourself and us that your opinions are infallible. They aren't. No one's are. But the point of having an opinion is to make it VALID, not forcably inarguable.

Amen, brother.


Nintendo constantly runs itself on its same basic core characters... And that’s innovation?


Like GTA 16, Halo 12, Jak 54 or Madden 07? Don't be so naive. EVERY company runs it's flagship titles into the ground. That is how they make money to develop fresh new titles(Hello? Pikmin? Animal Crossing? Nintendogs? Brain Age? etc.) that may not sell well.


[/COLOR]Because Immersion is Mental. NOT PHYSICAL.

I disagree. You speak as though they(storytelling and wiimote) are mutually exclusive. That is obviously a fallible argument. You don't think HD and 5.1 immerse you more into a game? Those are both tech items that have nothing to do with storytelling. They enhance the immersion. Why not the stylus or the wiimote? I personally think they both do/will add to the experience much the same way 1080i and 5.1 do just in a different way. Especially something simple as a speaker on the wiimote. Simple but immersive, the same way rumble is/can be.

H...h... holy shit, dude.

That's pretty much exactly how I feel right now. I no longer have any interest in trying to refute peoples' baseless or outright stupid claims against Nintendo... there's really no end to it.

Nope, unless you are bored at work and have some time to kill. lol.

It would be interesting to see everyone's age underneath their avatar. I think that would explain quite a bit in this thread.

I've owned all of Nintendo's consoles and are more loyal to them than other companies(that doesn't mean I haven't owned other systems, btw). Are they perfect? No. They have stumbled along the way the past 10 years, but every company has their faults. But I think they are on the right track with the Wii. They have obviously proved that with the DS. And they are working on correcting a lot of these little issues fans worry about. As a fan I can certainly understand wanting to see them succeed, but fretting over it on a message board seems like a waste of breath. Especially until one can actually hold the wiimote and get in some actual play time with the system before forming an opinion of it's demise.

Mookey - do you post on dvdtalk? Your posts ring a bit like someone over there.

[DarkNessBear]

dont buy one and shut up I wish that would work with you guys and the PS3.

You hypocrits.

Now you guys see where PS3 fans come from...

I want the Wii and the PS3 and I already have a 360. But, holy christ I am always on defense of the PS3 just because its a nonstop bash fest towards it.

And like the other poster said, you guys act as if you are so "in with it" and awaiting the coming of the new age and innovation cause you want a Wii... Damn, the Nintendo leaders really got hold of you didnt they?

After a 12-14 hour day of work, I dont feel like waving my arms around like an idiot and I dont play video games when I have the energy to do something more productive with my time. The Wii is not for me. My girlfriend on the other hand wont stop talking about. it.... =)
Cause you're not in with it... you're girlfriend understands true gaming and innovation, she knows how games are changing and that soon Life will be held inside a Wiimote. Her gaming knowledge surpasses you, for she knows what true gaming is at.

All the PS3 is, is all the same games released but with the shine of textures put up 20%. Noob.

[John_Gotti]

REWORKED MY LIST:

They've botched so many things, I'm surprised they still stand in the industry. It's like they've been riding on the success of the NES and its licenses for 20 years...

Now, seriously, listen to me before you freak out and get all fanboyish on me - I LOVE NINTENDO, and MARIO and all the other licenses... I've owned EVERY single system they've had since the NES.

I just kinda wish that they would stop making hardware and focus on their games...

I just dont get the whole Nintendo bandwagon, just 2 years ago everyone hated Nintendo, then they remake the GBA again, talk about the Wii and release the first decent system in years (DS) and now everyone is in love with them again... I just dont follow the bandwagon, and I think its idiotic to get screwed by Nintendo again and again. So, tell me... why is NINTENDO so awesome? Because 2 years ago, they were going the way of ATARI. Is it just cool to like them cause they're the underdog? Because newsflash, they're NOT the underdog, they're freakin NINTENDO.

- Here's why I dont trust them.

The first GBA, you couldnt see the screen.. and when they fixed it and resold it as the GBA SP for another $100+ dollars, they made you pay extra for a headphone adapter for a Portable game system!
They screwed up the whole Squaresoft thing years ago and still havent really patched it up. I mean, didn't square hold the Snes together? Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy....
They've lost tons of 3rd party support, EA being a major one.
Dual screen is a Gimmick... and the DS doesnt have enough titles that fully support the touch screen.
Mario Party is retarded, and nintendo has focued attention on that... and not they're highest selling gamecube game, Smash Brothers.
Metroid has been losing and regaining powers since the 80's, another story PLEASE.
Zelda will be cancelled for the gamecube, and only for Wii - YOU KNOW IT.
Wheres all the fighters, RPGs or Shmups?
Why is Gamecube the new Dreamcast?
Why doesnt Nintendo pay companies for exclusive titles like MS and Sony does? They did what, one Capcom contract? What about all the other 3rd party games made exclusive for Gamecube that jumped ship? Was their no legal binding contract?
If they're the lowest selling current console system, how come they're games never drop in price?
Super Mario Bros. 3 is one of the top selling games of all time... why not release a 3d Mario with the same ideas that made that one so inventive?
Dr Mario sold 4.85 million copies, Kid Icarus sold 1.76 Million copies, Punch Out sold 3 Million copies, Luigi's Mansion sold 3.27 million copies.... sequel? Anyone? What about Animal Crossing? Couldn't they at least put that online, or released extended content? I mean, only one Smash Brothers, Mario Kart & Mario platformer per console? Whats the point?
Why does Star Fox suck now?
No Online support?
Crappy support of the GBA to Gamecube link?
Mario needs to stop play sports, and release a good game.
I'm sorry, but the Mario sports games only sell because it's mario, and its the only sports games released anymore. Even Hot Shots Golf, is three times better than Mario Golf.
Nintendo games lack replayability now. Even flagship titles dont have hours of finding items in them anymore.
Why not just kill the gamecube? Why even bother to sell it still, if you havent done anything for it in a year or two?
Games that would of been PERFECT on the Gamecube. Kingdom Hearts, Dragon Quest, Eye Toy series, DDR series, exclusive Sonic titles.... hell, why Nintendo didnt just have Sega make exclusive titles for the gamecube is beyond me. Sega releases alot of crap now, but the gamecube is perfect for alot of Sega's old licenses... Imagine Space Harrier on the gamecube exclusive.
If the GBA SP, is what the GBA should of been all along, and the DS lite is what the DS should of been all along, then should I just not buy a Wii until its fixed too?You can flame me if you want, but I just dont see the appeal anymore. I love Nintendo licenses, but I feel like I'm taunted by with what Nintendo could be and not what it is.

WOW! Your a Straight Up B*tch.

You riding on the PS2/PS3 bandwagon.

This topic is called, What has Nintendo done right?

Well they have done a lot of things.

They made Mario, Zelda, DK, etc.
They have the BEST first party games for any system. Yeah GT4 is good, so is Halo 2 but you can't mess with zelda series.
Nintendo was the first at a lot of things. Analog Controll Stick, Rumble Pak, the L&R buttons, etc.
Got Resident Evil 4 First

Now also Nintendo has f***ed up on a few things.

Stayed with carts too long, should of moved to disc.
Even though I like GameCube disc I still think they should of made normal size disc.
No GTA, more kids/family type games.
3rd party games suck or not their


And I'm not one of thoses Nintendo fan Boys, yeah I do have a Gamecube but I also have a PS2, and an Xbox 360 that coming soon. I only use my GC for the Nintendo Games or the really good non-nintendo games that are only on GC(very few).


From what you said in your first posts your full of sh** or your retarted!:applause:

1. The first GBA was fine, if you played in a well lit room you could see, or if you played outside in the sun you could see fine....ohhh wait your a nerd and you don't get out of your mom's basement much. HOlla!!

2. I guess your true on that, even though I don't care, I'm not a nerd and I don't play FF or any of that crap.

3. When did they lose EA?????? But I heard that on the Wii a lot of companies are coming back..

4. From what I hear is that the Dual Screen games are great.

5. Maro Party is kinda gay but kids are into that stuff.

6. Thats a joke right.........? Metroid Prime won best Game of the Year from many magazines & sites. I'm pretty sure it sold well too.

7. It ain't a fact. The only thing I know is that your a homosexual-HOLLA!

8. Don't need any.

9. Making more spit up.

10. They still have some companies that work only for Nintendo.

11. All their games drop. Players Choice.

12. Its not that easy

13. They wanna try new things...sometimes

14. Thats what you think

15. True, they ain't Xbox Live

16. Then don't use it.

17. If it sells let it be.

18. Not true.

19. Not every game is gonna be GTA, you can't play every game for 50 hours.

20. GameCube is out selling Xbox 360 is Japen right now. Plus some people still buy it..

21. Talking more crap?

22. Same can be said for PS2, Ohh lets what 4 years til the make it smaller.





Also when you buy a Nintendo System ya know it going to work the first time, unlike Xbox & PS2.

NO OverHeating, NO Disk Read Erorrs, No Systems breaking down.

[RedvsBlue]

From what you said in your first posts your full of sh** or your retarted!:applause:


This is my absolute favorite thing to see on message boards. When someone calls someone else retarded and can't even spell it correctly themselves... Yeah, who's the retard then?

Well, this just about seals the deal, once I decided to read further I found this:

7. It ain't a fact. The only thing I know is that your a homosexual-HOLLA!

[Corvin]

Oh and to actually answer one of the complaints:

# Metroid has been losing and regaining powers since the 80's, another story PLEASE.

IGN(I think it was) confirmed that in the new Metroid for Wii, Samus will NOT lose her abilities.

[ArthurDigbySellers]

How is this thread still fucking open?

[John_Gotti]

This is my absolute favorite thing to see on message boards. When someone calls someone else retarded and can't even spell it correctly themselves... Yeah, who's the retard then?



You for being such a homo thug.


I don't care how well I spell. Is this some kind of spelling contest? I'm just writing this stuff going fast and not looking at what I'm writing.

[botticus]

You for being such a homo thug.


I don't care how well I spell. Is this some kind of spelling contest? I'm just writing this stuff going fast and not looking at what I'm writing.
http://wiki.coolmon.org/files/cookie.jpg

Just seemed appropriate.

[RedvsBlue]

You for being such a homo thug.


I don't care how well I spell. Is this some kind of spelling contest? I'm just writing this stuff going fast and not looking at what I'm writing.


So you're saying I'm a retarded homo thug?

What are you, about 14, 15? Let me guess you heard your hero Andy Milonakis rap about John Gotti in Waiting so you decided that it must mean he's cool if Andy Milonakis could rap about him.

[RedvsBlue]

http://wiki.coolmon.org/files/cookie.jpg

Just seemed appropriate.

Yeah, he definetly needs a reward for making it through an entire post without butchering the english language. We'll just look past the whole homo thug thing...

[John_Gotti]

I'm 18.

I hate Andy Milonakis, some fat ass b*tch that needs to lose some weight.

Also I don't like white Rappers.


Black Power!

[Strell]

Bizarro richbastard.

[Riyonuk]

Metroid has been losing and regaining powers since the 80's, another story PLEASE.

...try supermetroid or the first metroid, and there is more to the story than her just losing her upgrades. You sir need to die >_<

[DarkNessBear]

How is this thread still fucking open?

How do these game discussion forums stay open? Christ, its all one giant immature who can flame the other one the hardest.

It feels like a PS3 Forum and a Wii60 forum collided.

[RedvsBlue]

I'm 18.

Months?

[foltzie]

Cant we get back to whining that Mario looks like a cartoon and that Nintendo is somehow the scourge of the gaming world?

[Yashouzoid]

The first GBA, you couldnt see the screen.. and when they fixed it and resold it as the GBA SP for another $100+ dollars, they made you pay extra for a headphone adapter for a Portable game system! That I'll give you. GBA should have had a headphone jack and backlight to begin with.

They screwed up the whole Squaresoft thing years ago and still havent really patched it up. I mean, didn't square hold the Snes together? Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy.... While GCN is suffering from lack of Square goodness, Square has been supporting the Nintendo handhelds at least. Final Fantasy III, Children of Mana, Mario Hoops... Rumors of FF7 remake for the DS? That would absolutely spell doom for the PSP.

They've lost tons of 3rd party support, EA being a major one. And when they took a different direction with their gameplay, they gained it back. Ubisoft really loves Wii. EA is re-working their major franchises to work on it.

Dual screen is a Gimmick... and the DS doesnt have enough titles that fully support the touch screen. So? When DS was first released, there were too many games that tried to incorporate the touch screen and it interfered with the gameplay. I don't see what the problem is with not polluting classic formula (New SMB) with unnecessary gimmicks.

Mario Party is retarded, and nintendo has focued attention on that... and not they're highest selling gamecube game, Smash Brothers. Would Mario Party be blasted if it wasn't milked as much? Why would oversaturation of Super Smash Bros. be any better? A new game for every gen is fine.

Metroid has been losing and regaining powers since the 80's, another story PLEASE.
Zelda will be cancelled for the gamecube, and only for Wii - YOU KNOW IT. Let me use your time machine, I want a Wii.

Wheres all the fighters, RPGs or Shmups? Nintendo does Super Smash Bros. and Paper Mario... While lacking in fighters and RPGs, you can't say they don't have them. They do have some notable third-party games of those genres on the GameCube too (Soul Calibur II and Tales of Symphonia for example), you know.

Why is Gamecube the new Dreamcast? Dreamcast bashing? Didn't that go out of style in like 2002?

Why doesnt Nintendo pay companies for exclusive titles like MS and Sony does? They did what, one Capcom contract? What about all the other 3rd party games made exclusive for Gamecube that jumped ship? Was their no legal binding contract?
If they're the lowest selling current console system, how come they're games never drop in price? ...They don't? What do you call Player's Choice? Hell Nintendo practically invented that label.

Super Mario Bros. 3 is one of the top selling games of all time... why not release a 3d Mario with the same ideas that made that one so inventive? Because they want to try something new? Instead of giving consumers what they want, why not give them something NEW to want?

Dr Mario sold 4.85 million copies, Kid Icarus sold 1.76 Million copies, Punch Out sold 3 Million copies, Luigi's Mansion sold 3.27 million copies.... sequel? Anyone? What about Animal Crossing? Couldn't they at least put that online, or released extended content? I mean, only one Smash Brothers, Mario Kart & Mario platformer per console? Whats the point? Animal Crossing Wild World is online, you know that right? The Wii game will probably follow suit. Dr. Mario and Punch-Out both got sequels, btw - Pit is making a return in Super Smash Bros. and it's been rumored he'll come back in a sequel. Luigi's Mansion sucked.

Nintendo doesn't feel it to be necessary to release more than one Super Smash Bros. or Mario platformer on the same system. It'd be great to have like two games of each on a platform, but with games of Mario and Smash's caliber, it's worth the wait.

Why does Star Fox suck now? Good question.

No Online support? Something that's being rectified for the DS and Wii. Nice try.

Crappy support of the GBA to Gamecube link? Given.

Mario needs to stop play sports, and release a good game. I would agree if they were bad games.

I'm sorry, but the Mario sports games only sell because it's mario, and its the only sports games released anymore. Even Hot Shots Golf, is three times better than Mario Golf. I don't know, Mario sports games do pretty decently in reviews (Strikers got a 5/5 in GamePro I believe).

Nintendo games lack replayability now. Even flagship titles dont have hours of finding items in them anymore. You want hours of finding items? Try Donkey Kong 64. Wasn't that game just awesome? I find that Super Smash Bros. and Super Mario Sunshine have plenty of replayability.

Why not just kill the gamecube? Why even bother to sell it still, if you havent done anything for it in a year or two? Because people still want it of course. People want Nintendo games because of their broad appeal, whereas Xbox and PS2 seem more restricted to older demographics.

Games that would of been PERFECT on the Gamecube. Kingdom Hearts, Dragon Quest, Eye Toy series, DDR series, exclusive Sonic titles.... hell, why Nintendo didnt just have Sega make exclusive titles for the gamecube is beyond me. Sega releases alot of crap now, but the gamecube is perfect for alot of Sega's old licenses... Imagine Space Harrier on the gamecube exclusive. I totally fucking agree. You just hit the nail on the head.

A Kingdom Hearts game for the GameCube? I'd love that! Dragon Quest? Instant system seller! Dance Dance Revolution? With the mass popularity it's had in mainstream, you'd have to wonder why Nintendo didn't get a real DDR game! (Mario Mix doesn't count) And why didn't Nintendo just buy out Sega, or work out an exclusive deal with them? Really, the only games they've released lately that get mass media coverage are the Sonic games, which have always sold best on GameCube. And how does Sega respond to that? They release the next gen Sonic on PS3 and 360! What the hell, Sega? Similarly, why did Namco make Soul Calibur III a PS3 exclusive when it sold best on the Cube? Granted it can partly be attributed to Link's presence, but still.

The only problem with this argument is that EyeToy is Sony first party, so obviously it would never appear on a Nintendo system. Still, all of the games that would have been perfect for the GameCube went to the PS2 mostly, and that kind of sucks because Cube is clearly dying (the biggest games in Fall 2005 were Shadow the Hedgehog and Pokemon? Try again Nintendo), and Twilight Princess, if it hadn't been ported to Wii, would have been it's only saving grace, which is why it irritates me that Nintendo is doing a Wii version. Nintendo made some great first party GCN games, and I really enjoyed it, but that just wasn't enough.

Oh, and getting back on the NintendoxSega thing - NiGHTS 2 on any system would be Jesus.

If the GBA SP, is what the GBA should of been all along, and the DS lite is what the DS should of been all along, then should I just not buy a Wii until its fixed too? Wii is a console though. GBA and DS are handhelds.