When this is the world's example of peace...

[Ace-Of-War]

...who needs violence (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19902313-29677,00.html)?

NOBEL peace laureate Betty Williams displayed a flash of her feisty Irish spirit yesterday, lashing out at US President George W.Bush during a speech to hundreds of schoolchildren.

Campaigning on the rights of young people at the Earth Dialogues forum, being held in Brisbane, Ms Williams spoke passionately about the deaths of innocent children during wartime, particularly in the Middle East, and lambasted Mr Bush.

"I have a very hard time with this word 'non-violence', because I don't believe that I am non-violent," said Ms Williams, 64.

"Right now, I would love to kill George Bush." Her young audience at the Brisbane City Hall clapped and cheered.
I realize that her winning the Nobel Peace Prize several years ago was simply a journalistic maneuver to catch more interest, but that little example of irony isn't what really draws me into the article to begin with. This wasn't some anonymous MoveOn.org/DailyKos pansy that thought he was being cool by threatening the President from the safety of his basement somewhere, this award-winning woman saw it fit to stand up in front of a group of innocent, American schoolchildren and indoctrinate their young minds in what was probably an attendence mandatory lecture. I'm sure public funds went toward paying this woman to tell American kids that she "would love to kill" our President. How utterly disgusting. This article makes me sick to my stomach. Of course this woman won't get charged for threatening the President's well being, as Federal law says, it will be brushed aside as a slip of the tongue. Hell, we might even get "lucky" and she'll publicly apologize in this sort of fashion, "What I said was out of line, and I do regret saying it BUT this administration has commited so many crimes against humanity that I wish I could kill all of them!"

It's bad enough that this woman has such a screwed up view that when she disagrees with someone politically she wants to kill them, she'll make speeches to announce these threats for all the world to hear, but when she does it for a group of schoolkids, that's just intolerable. Some of these poor, misguided children gave her a standing ovation for advocating killing those who you don't agree with you. What a wonderful example of democracy, freedom, and peace to set for the public. I'm praying that the Department of Justice does something, anything, to hold this woman responsible for what she did. Fine her, jail her, deport her, I don't care. Do something to her, don't let her get away with this.

[Msut77]

...who needs violence (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19902313-29677,00.html)?


I realize that her winning the Nobel Peace Prize several years ago was simply a journalistic maneuver to catch more interest, but that little example of irony isn't what really draws me into the article to begin with. This wasn't some anonymous MoveOn.org/DailyKos pansy that thought he was being cool by threatening the President from the safety of his basement somewhere, this award-winning woman saw it fit to stand up in front of a group of innocent, American schoolchildren and indoctrinate their young minds in what was probably an attendence mandatory lecture. I'm sure public funds went toward paying this woman to tell American kids that she "would love to kill" our President. How utterly disgusting. This article makes me sick to my stomach. Of course this woman won't get charged for threatening the President's well being, as Federal law says, it will be brushed aside as a slip of the tongue. Hell, we might even get "lucky" and she'll publicly apologize in this sort of fashion, "What I said was out of line, and I do regret saying it BUT this administration has commited so many crimes against humanity that I wish I could kill all of them!"

It's bad enough that this woman has such a screwed up view that when she disagrees with someone politically she wants to kill them, she'll make speeches to announce these threats for all the world to hear, but when she does it for a group of schoolkids, that's just intolerable. Some of these poor, misguided children gave her a standing ovation for advocating killing those who you don't agree with you. What a wonderful example of democracy, freedom, and peace to set for the public. I'm praying that the Department of Justice does something, anything, to hold this woman responsible for what she did. Fine her, jail her, deport her, I don't care. Do something to her, don't let her get away with this.

I notice that in no way do you argue that W's "Shock and Awe" did not lead to the death of many many innocent children.

[alonzomourning23]

It's bad enough that this woman has such a screwed up view that when she disagrees with someone politically she wants to kill them,

I find it hard to believe that you, of all people, have never wanted a political leader dead. Or does this on apply to disagreements with american leaders?

Also, without context, it's hard to tell if she was serious, was half joking/ half serious, or was just speaking in hyperbole.

[miker8]

Brisbane is in Australia so these kids aren't Americans and the speech was not on American soil. Also it was at the city hall or something it didn't sound like attendance was mandatory. If they were mostly younger than highschool age then I can see this being inappropriate but the article didn't say. As for her "threat" it didn't sound serious to me. I often say I'm going to kill someone too but I would never even consider actually killing someone, even my worst enemy. It is a bit irresponsible in a public speech however, but I figure if president Bush can actually kill all these innocent (and not so innocent) people then it's only fair game that someone can make an empty threat to pay him back.

[Ace-Of-War]

I find it hard to believe that you, of all people, have never wanted a political leader dead. Or does this on apply to disagreements with american leaders?

Also, without context, it's hard to tell if she was serious, was half joking/ half serious, or was just speaking in hyperbole.

I would never wish, or plot as this story happens to take us, for the death of a Democrat just because he's a Democrat. Why even have debates? Why have authority? democracy? civilization? After all the history of mankind and the best arguments we have are death threats? I refuse to believe that.

I take it your argument would naturally imply my views toward men like Adolf Hitler and Joesph Stalin. People like this are definetely exceptions, just as an American President who would commit similar acts as these two examples have done. If that's the case however, I would want them sentenced to death by a jury of their peers, as they would undoubtedly deserve. I wouldn't want Stalin dead because he advocated communism. I despise communism but it's the right of the people to believe in that economic system if they so choose.

Even if it was a joke it was tasteless and shouldn't be taken any less seriously. Killing people is nothing to be joking about, President or not. I don't think you would like it if I was joking about killing you, just as I wouldn't if the roles were reversed.

[Ace-Of-War]

Brisbane is in Australia so these kids aren't Americans and the speech was not on American soil.

You're correct, I juxtaposed U.S. and schoolchildren when reading the article too quickly. I don't know about the mandatory attendance, it is from my experience with school that class trips are done with parental permission but when you're actually at the destination you can't just go running off by yourself. I'm sure the class was made to stay together while at city hall, and made to stay in for the speech.

[Quackzilla]

I'm gonna kill you bitch!

[sheepboy_1923]

I would never wish, or plot as this story happens to take us, for the death of a Democrat just because he's a Democrat. Why even have debates? Why have authority? democracy? civilization? After all the history of mankind and the best arguments we have are death threats? I refuse to believe that.

It didn't appear that she had any gripes with Republicans. It seemed she was unhappy with George Bush's actions and those who encouraged them.

It is easy to defend a president when you are at home in the U.S. It's much harder to praise a man when he is involved with a coup in your country that has resulted in the deaths of family members. Similarly, no matter how "noble" the cause, it's hard to support either side (especially the one with the obviously greater firepower) in a war if you're the one who is left to tend to the dead and dying.

[Ikohn4ever]

i think you forget that Nobel was responsible for TNT so the award contradicts itself from the get go

[Msut77]

I would never wish, or plot as this story happens to take us, for the death of a Democrat just because he's a Democrat.

She was fairly specific about her reasons whether she was using hyperbole or not.

She did not say anything like she hated W merely for his political party.

I value honesty, do you?

[Metal Boss]

She did not say anything like she hated W merely for his political party.




sadly, this is what it degenerates to every time, partisan bullshit.

[mykevermin]

Killing people is nothing to be joking about, President or not. I don't think you would like it if I was joking about killing you, just as I wouldn't if the roles were reversed.

Strange, as I haven't seen three dozen threads started by you about the numerous individuals and groups wished dead by Ann Coulter, and I don't recall your outrage when people posted the home addresses of NYT journalists, in the context of hopefully being read by a nut who *would* kill them, after they printed a photo and the town in which Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney's vacation homes are (with their permission, of course).

Perhaps I missed them?

[CocheseUGA]

It is easy to defend a president when you are at home in the U.S. It's much harder to praise a man when he is involved with a coup in your country that has resulted in the deaths of family members.

Since when was there a coup in Australia?

The more I read this board, the more I realize it isn't politics, it's 'let's bitch about everything we can because we are on the internet, no one can touch us, and we don't know what the fuck we are talking about half the time.'

[zionoverfire]

So then if you could go back in time and kill Hitler you wouldn't?


(Obligatory thread ruining Nazi post).:razz:

[Ace-Of-War]

Strange, as I haven't seen three dozen threads started by you about the numerous individuals and groups wished dead by Ann Coulter, and I don't recall your outrage when people posted the home addresses of NYT journalists, in the context of hopefully being read by a nut who *would* kill them, after they printed a photo and the town in which Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney's vacation homes are (with their permission, of course).

Ann Coulter doesn't give speeches based on her background in peace activism.

Nevertheless, your logic kind of degenerates into something that's unsolvable. Like, for example, say if I made a thread claiming how I didn't agree with the abortion of some public figure. You could then come in and say, "Well, you didn't make a thread when Jane Doe got an abortion! Maybe I missed it?"

[Msut77]

Ann Coulter doesn't give speeches based on her background in peace activism.

She is apparently serious however.

Cant you ever make a proper response to anything?

[alonzomourning23]

Ann Coulter doesn't give speeches based on her background in peace activism.

Neither did the person you quoted:

"I have a very hard time with this word 'non-violence', because I don't believe that I am non-violent,"

She seems to be concerned about protecting civilians, particularly children. Not pacifism or non-violense as a whole.

[Ace-Of-War]

Neither did the person you quoted:



She seems to be concerned about protecting civilians, particularly children. Not pacifism or non-violense as a whole. I'm sure the school that those children belonged to hired a winner of the Nobel Peace Prize to speak to children about killing U.S. Presidents. Let's get serious alonzo.

[mykevermin]

I'm sure the school that those children belonged to hired a winner of the Nobel Peace Prize to speak to children about killing U.S. Presidents. Let's get serious alonzo.

Yes, let's get serious. You point out one sentence as if it's the meat of her lecture. Of the article you cite in the OP, it mentions this:

Campaigning on the rights of young people at the Earth Dialogues forum, being held in Brisbane, Ms Williams spoke passionately about the deaths of innocent children during wartime, particularly in the Middle East, and lambasted Mr Bush.

So, no, it isn't about that. Yet you've *made* it about that, and want to disregard the entirety of her lecture, in favor of *one* sentence that you dislike. Are you consciously or unconsciously ignoring the multiples of the *TENS OF THOUSANDS* of dead civilians in Iraq, in order to focus on one lecturer's misplaced aggression? You act appalled that one person engaged in hyperbole (and boy I hope you sure don't own any right-wing books on contemporary issues), yet you aren't losing ANY sleep over the massive casualties accumulating in Iraq. Not the Iraqis, and not the Americans either. Just one scholar. Now *that's* danger. :roll:

[Msut77]

yet you aren't losing ANY sleep over the massive casualties accumulating in Iraq. Not the Iraqis, and not the Americans either.


That is the 400lb gorrila right there.

[CocheseUGA]

Yes, let's get serious. You point out one sentence...

That's my problem with this whole forum. That's what EVERYONE does, and there's no sense in trying to have an intellectual debate. It's pointless. Let's just call it the flame war forum.

[Cheese]

Ann Coulter doesn't give speeches based on her background in peace activism.

The fact that the woman was or was not a peace activist doesn't have anything to do with it, as you state right here:

Even if it was a joke it was tasteless and shouldn't be taken any less seriously. Killing people is nothing to be joking about, President or not. I don't think you would like it if I was joking about killing you, just as I wouldn't if the roles were reversed.

Ann calling for the deaths of the NYT staff, even as a joke is, in your own words, "tasteless and shouldn't be taken any less seriously."

Are you saying we should jail Ann Coulter for her threats? Of course not, because your phony self righteousness runs on fanatical partisan rage and nothing else.

Good luck with that.

[sheepboy_1923]

Since when was there a coup in Australia?

Sorry. Wasn't defending her specifically with that statement, but the people that she works and the situations they are in. It seemed that she considers herself a spokesperson for those people (albeit a self-appointed one).

The more I read this board, the more I realize it isn't politics, it's 'let's bitch about everything we can because we are on the internet, no one can touch us, and we don't know what the fuck we are talking about half the time.'

Is the bitching about people bitching meant to be ironic?

[CocheseUGA]

Is the bitching about people bitching meant to be ironic?


I already made that point in another thread.

[Ace-Of-War]

So, no, it isn't about that. Yet you've *made* it about that, and want to disregard the entirety of her lecture, in favor of *one* sentence that you dislike.
I've got this concept I'm going to introduce you to mykevermin, it's kind of a complicated form of getting your point across because it involves saying something you don't actually mean. Stop me if you get lost. I like to call it sarcasm.

I'll deconstruct what I said as an example so that we can kind of grasp this difficult concept:

I'm sure the school that those children belonged to hired a winner of the Nobel Peace Prize to speak to children about killing U.S. Presidents.
You see, taken literally, I bet you thought that I thought they actually hired her to speak about killing U.S. Presidents. You'd be wrong though, because this is actually sarcasm in action. What I really mean here is that they wouldn't have hired her for that reason, rather, they would've hired her to talk about real peace in relation to current issues and how it relates to children. It was in response to alonzo's disagreement that they would hire a winner of the Nobel Peace Prize to actually speak about peace in anyway.

...yet you aren't losing ANY sleep over the massive casualties accumulating in Iraq. Not the Iraqis, and not the Americans either. Just one scholar. Now *that's* danger. :roll:
Wait a minute. Hold the phones, man.

You're telling me that people actually die in a war?

That's one tall tale I won't believe!

(protip: might have been using a little sarcasm there, too.)

Ann calling for the deaths of the NYT staff, even as a joke is, in your own words, "tasteless and shouldn't be taken any less seriously."

Are you saying we should jail Ann Coulter for her threats? Of course not, because your phony self righteousness runs on fanatical partisan rage and nothing else.
The NYT staff isn't the President of the United States, but I never said I agreed with Ann Coulter's use of killing as a joke if she did in fact do so. I do think it's a tasteless form of humor, and I wouldn't agree with it anymore. Hopefully that will get you to stop putting words in my mouth.

And obviously I retracted my previous statement calling for charges to be put against someone who I found out was in Austrailia. I already addressed that.

[mykevermin]

sarcasm? That's the best you can do? At least you *attempted* arguments with others in the thread. Once I point out your inconsistencies and the existence of this very thread as evidence of your partisan willful ignorance of similar treatments, you can only play the sarcasm card? You're a masterful bullshit artist, Ace, and I expect far better than that from you.

[Cheese]

The NYT staff isn't the President of the United States...

Ahem...

Even if it was a joke it was tasteless and shouldn't be taken any less seriously. Killing people is nothing to be joking about, President or not.

...but I never said I agreed with Ann Coulter's use of killing as a joke if she did in fact do so.

http://www.anncoulter.com/cgi-local/article.cgi?article=138

I told a New York Observer reporter that my only regret was that Timothy McVeigh didn't hit The New York Times building

I do think it's a tasteless form of humor, and I wouldn't agree with it anymore.


Even if it was a joke it was tasteless and shouldn't be taken any less seriously. Killing people is nothing to be joking about, President or not. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=o9EbssUgHj4)

Hopefully that will get you to stop putting words in my mouth.

I'm quoting you, maybe you should stop putting words in your mouth.

And obviously I retracted my previous statement calling for charges to be put against someone who I found out was in Austrailia. I already addressed that.

So your moral outrage dissipated when you found out she wasn't American? Or when you got your ass handed to you by someone who actually read the article you posted, which you obviously had not.

[Metal Boss]

Everybody knows Bush joked about the war, remember the "where are the WMDs" bullshit gag he pulled not long ago? The man seems completely out of touch with the world around him.

[Ace-Of-War]

ahem...

Okay, now point out the federal law where it says it's illegal to write about hypothetical situations involving the explosion of a newspaper building.

I'll save you the trouble and inform you, again, that the NYT staff isn't the President of the United States. What federal law does say is that it's illegal to make death threats against the President of the United States. Now it all makes sense.

President Bush video

Where is the part where he says, "Right now, I would love to kill American armed forces."

Oh let me guess your response, "WRITING ON THE WALL!!! NO BLOOD FOR OIL!!!" Something like that right? No need for subtleties, I've heard them all more than I can bare.

So your moral outrage dissipated when you found out she wasn't American? Or when you got your ass handed to you by someone who actually read the article you posted, which you obviously had not.

I have no reason to explain to you what I already have done on page one. Try and keep up.

Let me spell it out for you Cheese. When someone is in Austraila, they aren't bound by American federal laws. That's actually never been the case, seeing as how these are two separate, sovereign entities each self-governing and completely independent. I know the countries names sound an awfully lot alike, but they're actually two different nations. Alright so let's take our knowledge and apply it to what I've already said

I retracted my previous statement calling for charges to be put against someone who I found out was in Austrailia

Because Austrailia isn't bound by American law! Now it all makes sense.

[Cheese]

Okay, now point out the federal law where it says it's illegal to write about hypothetical situations involving the explosion of a newspaper building.

I'll save you the trouble and inform you, again, that the NYT staff isn't the President of the United States. What federal law does say is that it's illegal to make death threats against the President of the United States. Now it all makes sense.

My issue isn't with the legality of it, it's you trying to push it as some high moral huff and puff that joking about killing other people was serious business and should be taken seriously. Law had nothing to do with your supposed outrage, as you said, "Killing people is nothing to be joking about, President or not." 'Or not' being the key phrase. So, using your own logic, if it's a despicable thing to even joke about killing someone and it should be taken seriously, then that should also apply to President Bush, Ann Coulter, Glenn Beck or any number of right wing ideologues.

Where is the part where he says, "Right now, I would love to kill American armed forces."

Again, according to you it's a despicable thing to joke about killing people, but there he is laughing over the bodies of tens of thousands of Iraqis. A real American hero.

Oh let me guess your response, "WRITING ON THE WALL!!! NO BLOOD FOR OIL!!!" Something like that right? No need for subtleties, I've heard them all more than I can bare.

I've never said that, you've accused me of having that mentality in the past, you were wrong then, you're wrong now. (shocker!)

I have no reason to explain to you what I already have done on page one. Try and keep up.

And yet you continue.

Let me spell it out for you Cheese. When someone is in Austraila, they aren't bound by American federal laws. That's actually never been the case, seeing as how these are two separate, sovereign entities each self-governing and completely independent. I know the countries names sound an awfully lot alike, but they're actually two different nations. Alright so let's take our knowledge and apply it to what I've already said Because Austrailia isn't bound by American law! Now it all makes sense.

Again, I'm not concerned with your not even reading the article (although it is funny) or the moot point legal issue, my point is more about your awesomely hypocritical moral outrage.

[Ace-Of-War]

My issue isn't with the legality of it

What are you talking about? You're the one who brought morality into the issue to begin with.

Look at my original post, hell I'll even highlight it for you since you're having so much trouble with the context clues.

Of course this woman won't get charged for threatening the President's well being, as Federal law says

...

Some of these poor, misguided children gave her a standing ovation for advocating killing those who you don't agree with you. What a wonderful example of democracy, freedom, and peace to set for the public. I'm praying that the Department of Justice does something

You blatant dishonesty is what hurts me. More than anyone here, be it camoor, mykevermin, metalboss, and the others, you really take the cake. You come in with your tricks, your demagoguing, and your equivocations to try and bamboozle people, but you're really just dirty. No, I don't particularly think joking about killing people is funny. You call it hypocrisy when you know absolutely nothing about me. Do I make threads in here touting how awesome Ann Coulter is? Can you point out one? No, it doesn't fucking matter to you because you have no trouble being dishonest and making idiotic assumptions. It's a second nature to you.

Then, what's more, is you say something like this:

Again, I'm not concerned with your not even reading the article (although it is funny) or the moot point legal issue

I read the article, but I juxtaposed two words by accident and that lead me to a misunderstanding of the article. When miker8 pointed that out to me, I didn't try to hide it or talk around it, you know why? Because I have intellecutal honesty, and I'll admit when I make a mistake, which is a lot more than I can say for just about anyone else here, especially you. Another thing miker8 didn't do was act like a pompous ass, he pointed it out like one human decent being to another. It's bad enough that you're an annoying liberal, you have to personally be an asshole to. Reminds of that one kid that follows me around with one-liners about how I'm a dumbass, the one with the anime avatar.

Anyways, the legal issue wasn't a moot point, it's why I made the fucking thread. You can say whatever you want, I made the thread, and I know what I wanted it to be about. I was angry that this woman wasn't being held responsible for her actions, my emotional outrage with killing people who disagree with you was, coincedentally, the moot point. It was moot because it's unfortunately typical for people in this day and age to not just disagree with people but actually want to kill them over it.

[usickenme]

I'd take a dead Karl Rove.

[Cheese]

http://www.houseoftwelve.com/goof/explode.gif


That took less time then I expected.

[Metal Boss]

What did I say that was "dishonest"...?

[Sydney]

...who needs violence (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19902313-29677,00.html)?


I realize that her winning the Nobel Peace Prize several years ago was simply a journalistic maneuver to catch more interest, but that little example of irony isn't what really draws me into the article to begin with. This wasn't some anonymous MoveOn.org/DailyKos pansy that thought he was being cool by threatening the President from the safety of his basement somewhere, this award-winning woman saw it fit to stand up in front of a group of innocent, American schoolchildren and indoctrinate their young minds in what was probably an attendence mandatory lecture. I'm sure public funds went toward paying this woman to tell American kids that she "would love to kill" our President. How utterly disgusting. This article makes me sick to my stomach. Of course this woman won't get charged for threatening the President's well being, as Federal law says, it will be brushed aside as a slip of the tongue. Hell, we might even get "lucky" and she'll publicly apologize in this sort of fashion, "What I said was out of line, and I do regret saying it BUT this administration has commited so many crimes against humanity that I wish I could kill all of them!"

It's bad enough that this woman has such a screwed up view that when she disagrees with someone politically she wants to kill them, she'll make speeches to announce these threats for all the world to hear, but when she does it for a group of schoolkids, that's just intolerable. Some of these poor, misguided children gave her a standing ovation for advocating killing those who you don't agree with you. What a wonderful example of democracy, freedom, and peace to set for the public. I'm praying that the Department of Justice does something, anything, to hold this woman responsible for what she did. Fine her, jail her, deport her, I don't care. Do something to her, don't let her get away with this.

You are sooo misguided. First of all these forums, such as the one in brisbane, are there as a medium of freedom of speach and providing an educated audience to those pasionate about world politics. Attendance is not manditory, and the attendees are not 'innocent', they are informed, and usually in year 11 or 12.

Because people that attent these world forums are usually half cluey about what is going on in the world (apparently unlike yourself), you can be sure this is why Betty Williams got an applause. She stood up and spoke out truthfully with her opinion and didn't hold back because of fear of your government. I would say if there were a few less cowardly people such as yourself and a few more people like her over in the states the world may not be in the unstable condition as it is today. Just like the nazis you are a tool to strike fear into the people who (much braver than yourself) would speak out against the crimes commited by the people in power.

Wake up Ace-of-War, realise you government has single handedly screwed up peace in the world for many years. Then understand that eventually it is going to come back to bite you, then, when your family starts dying in air strikes, mabye you wont be so quick to defend your corrupt government.

[elprincipe]

Wake up Ace-of-War, realise you government has single handedly screwed up peace in the world for many years. Then understand that eventually it is going to come back to bite you, then, when your family starts dying in air strikes, mabye you wont be so quick to defend your corrupt government.

I'd like to hear what peace you are crediting the U.S. for screwing up in the world. This should be interesting.

[Sydney]

Your right I shouldn't have said that, I know there were wars going on in the world before gw came to power. I take that statement back.

My world I guess has been changed in the last few years. Australia used to be very peaceful and tolerant. Since going into iraq with america we have had terrorists arrested planning bombings and attacks not 50km from my house. We now have sedation laws effectively ending freedom of speach and giving ASIO the power to arrest any person at any time for no crime and keeping them locked up for 2 years before they are even allowed to publically aknowledge they have been imprisioned. I think our country should stop following in Americas footsteps. They are making so many enemies (this is what I ment earlier) and these enemies are rubbing off on us. Instead of invading other countries and using force all the time I think America should try and understand why they are disliked by so many other countries and try befriending them. This would make for a more friendly and peaceful world (as opposed to the opposite they are achieving now).

[elprincipe]

Your right I shouldn't have said that, I know there were wars going on in the world before gw came to power. I take that statement back.

Thank you for being one of the few people mature enough on this board to be able to type something like that.

My world I guess has been changed in the last few years. Australia used to be very peaceful and tolerant. Since going into iraq with america we have had terrorists arrested planning bombings and attacks not 50km from my house. We now have sedation laws effectively ending freedom of speach and giving ASIO the power to arrest any person at any time for no crime and keeping them locked up for 2 years before they are even allowed to publically aknowledge they have been imprisioned. I think our country should stop following in Americas footsteps. They are making so many enemies (this is what I ment earlier) and these enemies are rubbing off on us. Instead of invading other countries and using force all the time I think America should try and understand why they are disliked by so many other countries and try befriending them. This would make for a more friendly and peaceful world (as opposed to the opposite they are achieving now).

I don't know too much about the new laws in Australia; from what you describe, they go far beyond what we have here, which I don't like too much (some things in the USA PATRIOT Act, for example). Hopefully your country will realize, as I hope ours will as well, that doing these kinds of things that infringe on civil liberties makes us all poorer, and doesn't make us more secure either.

We do try to understand why some other countries aren't too happy with our foreign policy, I believe. However, I think we all realize every country acts in its own self-interest, and for some countries they perceive their self-interest to be thwarting whatever the most powerful country in the world at this point in time, the US, does. This is very unfortunate, because just think what the world could do if everyone worked together on certain issues, or at least just most of us worked together.

In any case, just leaving people alone didn't really work for us before. We didn't exactly attack the Taliban before 9/11 now, did we? Did we attack Lebanon in 1983? No, we put in peacekeeping forces that Hezbollah bombed. Did we attack Somalia? No, we tried to put in peacekeepers who again were attacked.

See the pattern? If we don't do something (Rwanda, Darfur, Congo), we're blamed for not acting to prevent deaths and war. If we do do something (Iraq, Lebanon, etc) we're blamed for interfering or "aggression" (even though the last time we took territory by force was a century ago).

[Ace-Of-War]

That took less time then I expected.

lol

Cheese, ladies and gentlemen. Msut, get in here and help him out kid. It's all ya'll are good for.

You are sooo misguided. First of all these forums, such as the one in brisbane, are there as a medium of freedom of speach and providing an educated audience to those pasionate about world politics. Attendance is not manditory, and the attendees are not 'innocent', they are informed, and usually in year 11 or 12.

I don't live in Austrailia, but what do you mean when you say the schoolchildren "are not innocent" in that context? Do you mean to tell me that you believe children aged 15-18 are fully developed adults capable of making up their own minds? You think children this age aren't influenced by what other people say? That's how I used the term innocent, and I think it still applies fine. Children of that age are still able to be shaped to believe what people tell them to believe. If exclaiming your love to kill a world leader because you disagree with him isn't an attempt to influence their minds, then I don't know what is. Might as well sit them in front of the Jihad television channel while they praise martyrs and tell children how they must grow up to suicide bomb Jews for Allah.

That's about the only part of your post I can even attempt to take seriously and bring myself to quote. Even with the broken english (I thought ya'll spoke english in Austrailia) I managed to make out most of that.

You managed to call me a cowardly, Nazi tool without a "cluey" about what's going on, who strikes fear into others, and who's family should die in an airstrike.

A real friendly guy from down under. I bet you win all the debates at home. If people don't agree with you, you just call them Nazis who should have their families killed. No wonder you're defending this Betty Williams character.

[Msut77]

lol

Cheese, ladies and gentlemen. Msut, get in here and help him out kid. It's all ya'll are good for.


Coming from you?

Worms have to crouch to spit in your eye.

[niceguyshawne]

See the pattern? If we don't do something (Rwanda, Darfur, Congo), we're blamed for not acting to prevent deaths and war. If we do do something (Iraq, Lebanon, etc) we're blamed for interfering or "aggression" (even though the last time we took territory by force was a century ago).

The thing is, there wasn't a war in Iraq before we got there.

[Cheese]

lol

Cheese, ladies and gentlemen. Msut, get in here and help him out kid. It's all ya'll are good for.


You freak out and I need back up? Your logic, as always, is infallible.

[elprincipe]

The thing is, there wasn't a war in Iraq before we got there.

That's a whole other can of worms, but surely you can't deny that Saddam was killing hundreds of thousands.

[Ace-Of-War]

You freak out and I need back up?

Oh, no. I just thought ya'll should work as a team. Seeing as how insults are about all you have left once I'm through with you.

Worms have to crouch to spit in your eye.

You get to that point when you can no longer face me on any substantial level, and this is what you end up doing. I love Msut, he's like my sidekick, or mascot, if you will. He's always there to throw out that one liner, just like clockwork. You'd do good to study some of his tactics.

Ya'll both got some catching up to do though, Sydney called me a cowardly Nazi who should have his family killed. Cheese, why don't you come at me with a homosexual insult. That will probably be a nice ending to the tirade here.

[Cheese]

Ah Bloo Blah Bloo

Your delusions of grandeur are truly something to behold.

[Metal Boss]

Well, this is some inspiring dialogue.

[Metal Boss]

By the way I'm still interested in hearing how I am such a "dishonest" person, I can see you've got your hands full though.

[usickenme]

That's a whole other can of worms, but surely you can't deny that Saddam was killing hundreds of thousands.

Yeah but he had killed "hundreds of thousands" when he was our bitch as well. Plus our sanctions,while somewhat justified, had a devastating effect and I never saw any conservatives shedding tears for the Iraqi people.

So I really don't think that was part of the equations except for PR.

[Msut77]

You get to that point when you can no longer face me on any substantial level

This is the first time you made a response to me in months and this is the best you can do?

[Ace-Of-War]

By the way I'm still interested in hearing how I am such a "dishonest" person, I can see you've got your hands full though.
I'm done with them. Hell, he's not even quoting what I actually say anymore. I doubt if he even bothered to read it. Just wait until Ace posts so I can hit him up with the next insult! Ha, take that! I'll be the champion! :roll:

I just listed your name because your name sticks out. I love MGS. I could've said any number of people, usickenme, elprinciple, the guy with snoop dog as his avatar... No, I don't have anything specifc because I haven't much argued with you. I wasn't specifically calling you dishonest though either, because you seem like an okay guy. I was moreso singling Cheese out among the rest of you because of his ego. Yeah, I admit my mistakes, and I'm proud to say that I'm intellecutally honest enough to do so. Obviously being honest is a trait to be ridiculed when it comes to Cheese. If that's the case then he can go cheerlead with Msut and Sydney while the men are talking.

[elprincipe]

Yeah but he had killed "hundreds of thousands" when he was our bitch as well. Plus our sanctions,while somewhat justified, had a devastating effect and I never saw any conservatives shedding tears for the Iraqi people.

So I really don't think that was part of the equations except for PR.

I guess you are opening that can of worms. ;)

I agree that most of the focus was on WMD and not on Saddam's atrocities, although there was some (especially on his use of chemical weapons). But my original point, which was we're damned if we do and damned if we don't in some people's eyes when it comes to these sorts of things, still holds.

I just listed your name because your name sticks out. I love MGS. I could've said any number of people, usickenme, elprinciple, the guy with snoop dog as his avatar... No, I don't have anything specifc because I haven't much argued with you.

So what are you accusing me of? I can't make it out.

[bmulligan]

Yeah but he had killed "hundreds of thousands" when he was our bitch as well. Plus our sanctions,while somewhat justified, had a devastating effect and I never saw any conservatives shedding tears for the Iraqi people.



You never saw Saddam shedding any tears either as he syphoned off cash from the "oil for food" program that worked so brilliantly. Not to mention the back door oil deals, french missle and russian machine gun purchases, and building of more presidential palaces with gold plated plumbing while his political enemies starved before execution.

[usickenme]

Of course I didn't. Saddam was a piece of crap and deserves to die.


But my original point, which was we're damned if we do and damned if we don't in some people's eyes when it comes to these sorts of things, still holds.
.

I agree in general. But outside of a very few (AI), we were perfectly happy to come down on the "don't" side with respect to what was happening to the populace of Iraq without much damning.

[Cheese]

I'm done with them. Hell, he's not even quoting what I actually say anymore. I doubt if he even bothered to read it. Just wait until Ace posts so I can hit him up with the next insult! Ha, take that! I'll be the champion! :roll:

I just listed your name because your name sticks out. I love MGS. I could've said any number of people, usickenme, elprinciple, the guy with snoop dog as his avatar... No, I don't have anything specifc because I haven't much argued with you. I wasn't specifically calling you dishonest though either, because you seem like an okay guy. I was moreso singling Cheese out among the rest of you because of his ego. Yeah, I admit my mistakes, and I'm proud to say that I'm intellecutally honest enough to do so. Obviously being honest is a trait to be ridiculed when it comes to Cheese. If that's the case then he can go cheerlead with Msut and Sydney while the men are talking.

Funny how I'm tricky, dishonest and egotistical for quoting you back at yourself.

[Ace-Of-War]

Knowingly taking people grossly out of context tends to do that.

[Brak]

Misdirected angst! YEAH!

[elprincipe]

Knowingly taking people grossly out of context tends to do that.

I'm still curious to know what you are accusing me of from above...waiting...