Clover Studios is no more.

[Logain8955]

http://ir.capcom.co.jp/english/news/html/e061012a.html


;.; It's official. Capcom's decided to dissolve Clover. I dont know if they're just bringing them back under the Capcom umbrella, or if the brilliant team is being separated.

Love is over.

[Scrubsy]

That sucks. They were one of the few studios that actually make original games.

[CoffeeEdge]

What the SHIT.

OK, so they produce a string of commercial and critical successes, and they get shut down? I don't understand the logic.

I hate this. I just fucking hate this. Clover was one of the most promising new studios in the past 5 years.

What's next? Treasure goes under? Shudder to think...

[zewone]

This sucks.

[gunm]

Well, it will be official @the end of March next year.

I think it's too early to say what kind of impact this has creatively on Capcom in general. A number of Clover's most recent games (including Okami) didn't do as well as the company hoped, so it's not entirely surprising.

[spidey]

The interview in the latest OPM made it sound like they still had a ways to go before something like this would happen. Didn't know that the Viewtiful Joe series and Okami amounted to losses of 400 million yen... and here I thought they were doing pretty good.

[asianxcore]

this is crappy news.

[Logain8955]

Well, it will be official @the end of March next year.

I think it's too early to say what kind of impact this has creatively on Capcom in general. A number of Clover's most recent games (including Okami) didn't do as well as the company hoped, so it's not entirely surprising.


Okami did crappy in Japan, that's true. But the game is selling like gold-encrusted money cakes here. I've gone to a few gamestores locally and caught the employees bitching about how they can't keep it in stock.

[sketch226]

They're probably being dissolved because they only released what? 2 or 3 sequels to Viewtiful Joe. And then they create an ORIGINAL game called Okami?!? That's got to be in violation of Capcom's corporate policy.

It's disrespectful to Capcom, really, that they haven't released Viewtiful Joe 8 and two remakes of the first Viewtiful Joe by now.

[Brak]

At least God Hand squeezed by...

[Dr Mario Kart]

UPDATE: A source who wishes to remain anonymous is telling me that the Clover gang actually wants to split from Capcom and form their own independent development studio. So the dissolution, then, would have been caused by the developers deciding to take off.

UPDATE 2: There's an English version (http://ir.capcom.co.jp/english/news/html/e061012a.html) of the press release up now.

Clover Studio, creators of Capcom titles like Viewtiful Joe and God Hand, has been dissolved, according to a press release that hit the publisher's web site this morning. The subsidiary was wholly owned by Capcom.

The liquidation will be formally concluded at the end of March, 2007, the close of the Japanese fiscal year. Again -- if I'm reading the release right, they'll announce a "special loss" on the balance sheets at that time of approximately 400 million yen (approx. $3,351,610.)
http://blog.wired.com/games/2006/10/capcoms_clover_.html

[MadFlava]

The studio is doing well critically but the sales figures are not up to snuff. I don't think Okami sold very well in the USA thus far and Capcom shelled out a lot of marketting dollard advertising it in magazines and on websites. Godhand also looks like it's getting mixed reviews and probably runs the high risk of not selling well too.

I find it funny how Nintendo Fanboys are posting on Kotaku that Clover betrayed them and are glad they are gone.

[Dead of Knight]

Good job, morans. Keep making sure Mega Man Battle Network 16 releases instead.

[lokizz]

The studio is doing well critically but the sales figures are not up to snuff. I don't think Okami sold very well in the USA thus far and Capcom shelled out a lot of marketting dollard advertising it in magazines and on websites. Godhand also looks like it's getting mixed reviews and probably runs the high risk of not selling well too.

I find it funny how Nintendo Fanboys are posting on Kotaku that Clover betrayed them and are glad they are gone.

nintendo fanboys are dumb beyond understanding nothing they do surprises me unless they openly admit to the gimmicky nature of nintendos products then id be surprised.

[Scorch]

Good job, morans. Keep making sure Mega Man Battle Network 16 releases instead.

http://uplink.space.com/attachments/394104-morans.jpg

(it's morons, not morans.)

[shipwreck]

There's really no one to blame on this.

Capcom wasn't making money off of the games Clover was producing. None of the 4 Viewtiful Joe games exactly tore up the charts and all of them received quick price drops or were clearanced at stores. Okami didn't sell well in Japan and when all is said and done, I don't think it will sell well here in the U.S. either. Godhand is not going to sell many copies and Capcom even put it out as a budget title at $30.

Clover wants to make creative, interesting games. They should be allowed to do that, but Capcom isn't going to keep pumping money into them when the same money could be used on a sequel to a proven franchise that people will buy.

And finally, the consumers: the general gaming public is not going to buy these games. They buy sequels of well known franchises and for the most part, that's just about it. There is no changing this and I'm in no position to tell Joe Gamer what he is finding fun and spending his money on is wrong.

[ArthurDigbySellers]

The interview in the latest OPM made it sound like they still had a ways to go before something like this would happen. Didn't know that the Viewtiful Joe series and Okami amounted to losses of 400 million yen... and here I thought they were doing pretty good.

I just read that story so this announcement really surprised me. Even if Capcom was losing money on Clover's products, at least Clover was doing something different.

[furyk]

I can understand why Nintendo fanboys are pissed about Viewtiful Joe getting ported. I think they're total morons for thinking that, but I can understand where they're coming from. In fairness, people should be pissed at Clover for Red Hot Rumble.

I liked Clover. I think Viewtiful Joe sold well in Japan, shitty every where else. Okami was the reverse situation. Ah well. Hopefully they'll bring some of their goodness to RE 5/Wii and maybe one of the new Mega Man franchises (or Mega Man 9/Legends 3, pleasepleasepleasepleasepleaseplease Capcom).

I just read that story so this announcement really surprised me. Even if Capcom was losing money on Clover's products, at least Clover was doing something different.

It's sad that we've reached a day and age where hard 2D platformers are the exception rather then the rule.

[Apossum]

fuck. that's awful news. I'm not surprised though. Capcom pushed them pretty hard and the team ended up putting out quantity over quality. VJ1 and Okami are great, but everything else wreaked of "capcom made me do this."


btw, in Capcom's financial report they put out earlier this year, they said Okami was selling well in japan. I don't think it failed like you all are saying. But it did take way too long to develop, which probably ended up in an inevitable loss.

[Chacrana]

Well... at least we got Okami. I'm glad that we got 1 gem out of Clover.

[Skylander7]

There's really no one to blame on this.

Capcom wasn't making money off of the games Clover was producing. None of the 4 Viewtiful Joe games exactly tore up the charts and all of them received quick price drops or were clearanced at stores. Okami didn't sell well in Japan and when all is said and done, I don't think it will sell well here in the U.S. either. Godhand is not going to sell many copies and Capcom even put it out as a budget title at $30.

Clover wants to make creative, interesting games. They should be allowed to do that, but Capcom isn't going to keep pumping money into them when the same money could be used on a sequel to a proven franchise that people will buy.

And finally, the consumers: the general gaming public is not going to buy these games. They buy sequels of well known franchises and for the most part, that's just about it. There is no changing this and I'm in no position to tell Joe Gamer what he is finding fun and spending his money on is wrong.

I agree on this, as Capcom is a franchise development company. The only way they'll support an original title in their business model is if it has franchise potential. Many companies have moved in this direction to minimize risk.

However, I think they've fucked Clover on this one too. They've done a poor job of marketing the game, and could have (and still could) promote it alot more than they have. I don't know how well they've promoted it overseas, but I haven't seen a commercial on it or anything here. Hell, even if you make a commercial on adult swim and air it a few times, I think they'd move more units.

I wonder if some of this has to do with market anticipation of next gen systems. This game is incredible, it's a shame that the mainstream market isn't giving it a chance. I believe that with a little more promotion and a slight price drop, they'd sell more copies.

[Roufuss]

There's really no one to blame on this.

Capcom wasn't making money off of the games Clover was producing. None of the 4 Viewtiful Joe games exactly tore up the charts and all of them received quick price drops or were clearanced at stores. Okami didn't sell well in Japan and when all is said and done, I don't think it will sell well here in the U.S. either. Godhand is not going to sell many copies and Capcom even put it out as a budget title at $30.

Clover wants to make creative, interesting games. They should be allowed to do that, but Capcom isn't going to keep pumping money into them when the same money could be used on a sequel to a proven franchise that people will buy.

And finally, the consumers: the general gaming public is not going to buy these games. They buy sequels of well known franchises and for the most part, that's just about it. There is no changing this and I'm in no position to tell Joe Gamer what he is finding fun and spending his money on is wrong.

Exactly. Capcom isn't at fault, they stuck with Clover for a long time when none of their games did well at all.

4 games later and not one of them has been a success financially, of course they are going to drop them. They more than got a fair chance at things.

For people saying "bitch bitch bitch Capcom sucks blah blah no original IP's", Dead Rising was a HUGE success and Lost Planet is another original IP. Capcom is one of the few developers who DO take a chance and DO put out original IP's, and sometimes this happens and none of them do well at all.

[Apossum]

Exactly. Capcom isn't at fault, they stuck with Clover for a long time when none of their games did well at all.

4 games later and not one of them has been a success financially, of course they are going to drop them. They more than got a fair chance at things.

For people saying "bitch bitch bitch Capcom sucks blah blah no original IP's", Dead Rising was a HUGE success and Lost Planet is another original IP. Capcom is one of the few developers who DO take a chance and DO put out original IP's, and sometimes this happens and none of them do well at all.


Capcom is totally at fault. They're the ones who tell Clover what to develop-- and they wanted 10 sequels to Viewtiful Joe, a mascot who never caught on in the first place.

[Spades22]

That suuuucks, I had just started to like Clover and now they're "dissolved" sounds so morbid. Freaking Capcom always releases a new game as a series to the one before that if it sold well, then they go on and make like 20000 a year until people finally get sick of them! I think the Clover people should just go to some other company and ask to be financed....they can still make the same games then.

[CAG 79]

Heh, here I thought that Capcom was happy with Clover but I guess not. Okami is a great game but I think most people are passing on it now because they're getting ready to purchase a next gen system and that is where their interest is at.

[jkam]

I just read this. That really sucks. I realize the games didn't sell all that well but their games were definitely original. I'm looking foward to getting Okami and God Hand. We need more studios like them not less. Ugh :(

[ArthurDigbySellers]

I just read this. That really sucks. I realize the games didn't sell all that well but their games were definitely original. I'm looking foward to getting Okami and God Hand. We need more studios like them not less. Ugh :(

Well just because Capcom is "dissolving" Clover doesn't mean that the Clover guys can't pack up and do their own thing. I'm sure that they can find a publisher other than Capcom. Nintendo, are you listening?

[furyk]

That suuuucks, I had just started to like Clover and now they're "dissolved" sounds so morbid. Freaking Capcom always releases a new game as a series to the one before that if it sold well, then they go on and make like 20000 a year until people finally get sick of them! I think the Clover people should just go to some other company and ask to be financed....they can still make the same games then.

Well at least they'll still be at Capcom. If they were a private company, they'd be in the red so much that they'd file for Chapter 11 Japan style and be scattered to the wind. Keeping them all at Capcom means that there'll be more Clover in a Capcom game now rather then if the latter situation happened.

[SpikeSpiegel]

Sucks, but Shipwreck said what must be said. I still have Okami in the shrinkwrap. Should I take it back for a pricedrop?

[Roufuss]

Capcom is totally at fault. They're the ones who tell Clover what to develop-- and they wanted 10 sequels to Viewtiful Joe, a mascot who never caught on in the first place.

Viewtiful Joe was always planned from the beginning as a trilogy, that was Clover's idea. It's written that way since the very first game.

I think the only time Capcom whored out Viewtiful Joe is for that shitty SSBM style game.

It was a good series, but I think VJ 2 didn't improve on the first one at all (was alot worse, imo), and that's Clover's fault. I never saw the appeal to the studio... Viewtiful Joe was ok, VJ 2 sucks, Okami is great, and apparently Godhand also sucks.

That's a horrible track record.

I wonder how many people here who went "Oh man, this blows" were the ones waiting for Okami to price drop instead of supporting it when it came out, because that contributed as much to this if anything. (For the record, I got it on release, same with all Clover games except for Godhand).

[Dead of Knight]

http://uplink.space.com/attachments/394104-morans.jpg

(it's morons, not morans.)

I said "morans" intentionally in reference to that pic. Thanks for posting that, though. I haven't seen it in a while.

[Z-Saber]

Here's to hoping that they are indeed splitting off and not disappearing entirely.

[Strell]

It's true. I'm buying them.

They are going to live in my backyard.

We're going to have the greatest tea parties.

They'll be all saying FEED US, PLEASE! in their moon language, and I'll just keep laaaaaaughing....

[Apossum]

Viewtiful Joe was always planned from the beginning as a trilogy, that was Clover's idea. It's written that way since the very first game.

I think the only time Capcom whored out Viewtiful Joe is for that shitty SSBM style game.

It was a good series, but I think VJ 2 didn't improve on the first one at all (was alot worse, imo), and that's Clover's fault. I never saw the appeal to the studio... Viewtiful Joe was ok, VJ 2 sucks, Okami is great, and apparently Godhand also sucks.

That's a horrible track record.

I wonder how many people here who went "Oh man, this blows" were the ones waiting for Okami to price drop instead of supporting it when it came out, because that contributed as much to this if anything. (For the record, I got it on release, same with all Clover games except for Godhand).

Their track record was horrible...I guess I shouldn't say who did what, because I have no idea about how their business arrangement works. Capcom could've been pressuring them to put out 5 games a year or they could've been too ambitious.

I'd love to see them start their own company and concentrate on single games at a time-- like 1 or 2 a year.

In any case, they gave us Okami and for that they'll go down in videogame history. that game is timeless and you could never look back and say the graphics are outdated. Unless of course, Okami 2 somehow makes it out :)


now, they dissolve in March 2007...sounds like they'll be putting out another game in that time.

[-Never4ever-]

That sucks. They were one of the few studios that actually make original games.

Make that; original games that DIDN'T suck.

I hope this doesn't mean no VJ3 or Okami 2 :(

BTW VJ2 wasn't horrible. Sure, it wasn't VJ1, but it was still pretty good. Can't speak for Godhand though.

[Roufuss]

Their track record was horrible...I guess I shouldn't say who did what, because I have no idea about how their business arrangement works. Capcom could've been pressuring them to put out 5 games a year or they could've been too ambitious.

I'd love to see them start their own company and concentrate on single games at a time-- like 1 or 2 a year.

In any case, they gave us Okami and for that they'll go down in videogame history. that game is timeless and you could never look back and say the graphics are outdated. Unless of course, Okami 2 somehow makes it out :)


now, they dissolve in March 2007...sounds like they'll be putting out another game in that time.

If Clover was their own company they would have filed bankruptcy by now, and I don't think that would change if they started a new company in March 2007.

They are better off getting dissolved into Capcom because at least they will have jobs.

[Apossum]

If Clover was their own company they would have filed bankruptcy by now, and I don't think that would change if they started a new company in March 2007.

They are better off getting dissolved into Capcom because at least they will have jobs.


not if they made more games like Okami :) and hey, Godhand was a good idea with poor execution, probably because it was rushed.

[Spades22]

Haha that pic is awesome

[Roufuss]

not if they made more games like Okami :) and hey, Godhand was a good idea with poor execution, probably because it was rushed.

According to other people in this thread, Okami bombed in Japan and probably isn't doing much better here (we would have to wait for the NPD numbers or whatever to find out).

So yea, they can make awesome games like Okami all they want, but if they don't sell, they are screwed, espically if they were their own company.

Interesting to think Dead Rising is selling more than Okami, that's something crazy right there.

[nintendokid]

McDonalidization, people, just McDonaldization taking course.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonaldization

The longer Capcom lets Clover do their own things, the more dangerous they become as potential competitors. This could be in the form of leaving Capcom (Clover subsidiary) to form their own company like Sakaguchi did with Mistwalker or leaving for another company. Economics is a science and science, unlike religion and ethics, is not concerned about right or wrong but is only concerned with efficiency.

Fortune 500 will soon becaome Fortune 50 or worse, Fortune 5! Where's the democracy and free market in that?!

[Apossum]

According to other people in this thread, Okami bombed in Japan and probably isn't doing much better here (we would have to wait for the NPD numbers or whatever to find out).

So yea, they can make awesome games like Okami all they want, but if they don't sell, they are screwed, espically if they were their own company.

Interesting to think Dead Rising is selling more than Okami, that's something crazy right there.



I know what people are saying, but they're wrong (no one pays attention to my posts :-P ) The first week sales looked weak, but it must've picked up-- since Capcom highlighted it as a strong performer in their financial report this year. it doesn't have to sell 100,000 at once, it can sell steady at 10,000 a week and hit 100,000 in 2 months as word of mouth spreads. I could see that happening with this game (there and here.)

and Okami, iirc, moved about 30,000 copies in its first week, DR has only sold 20,000--which covers about all the people who own 360s in Japan :lol:

[GuilewasNK]

http://uplink.space.com/attachments/394104-morans.jpg

(it's morons, not morans.)

It's like owned vs. pwned all over again.

[62t]

I wonder if Shinji Mikami is still working for Capcom.

[nintendokid]

I wonder if Shinji Mikami is still working for Capcom.

He's been long gone right after RE4 was finished for the GameCube. The reason? Actually, Mikami and a few others left because of some internal executive issue about releasing RE4 on the PS2. Simply put, Mikami and the others felt that RE4 shouldn't have been released on the PS2.

A true artist never sells a painting and then proceed to paint the same piece....

[gunm]

Okami did crappy in Japan, that's true. But the game is selling like gold-encrusted money cakes here. I've gone to a few gamestores locally and caught the employees bitching about how they can't keep it in stock.

Keep in mind the "gamestores" make up a small percentage of the market. Not to mention, we don't know how many games are being allocated per store. Check the NPDs and Wal-Mart's numbers, then get back to me.

[shipwreck]

Keep in mind the "gamestores" make up a small percentage of the market. Not to mention, we don't know how many games are being allocated per store. Check the NPDs and Wal-Mart's numbers, then get back to me.

The game won't sell well in the U.S.

I can't be the only one that can look at games prior to release and tell that they aren't going to sell... can I?

Things going against Okami selling well in the U.S.

1. The name Okami. This means nothing to Americans. It does not make one want to pick up the box, nor does it give one any idea what the game is about. (See also Otogi, Otogi 2, Odama)

2. The game looks cartoony. Cel shaded games do not sell in the States. Wind Waker gets a pass because people want to play Zelda, but even so, look at all the flack that game got due to it's art style. (See also Jet Set Radio Future, Viewtiful Joe, XIII)

3. It's a game where you fight as a wolf using caligraphy?!? This does not appeal to American audiences. I can't even come up with a see also here.

4. Bad timing. Everybody is getting ready for the big franchise releases just around the corner. To be honest, Okami actually probably couldn't have released at a much better time (maybe a little earlier in the summer would help), but if it was released any later it would have just gotten swallowed up by the big sellers for the holidays.


And this isn't the type of game that sells huge numbers at Wal-Mart. This is a video game for people that are really into video games (like people who visit this site), but it doesn't have crossover appeal outside of the people that care if a game is "critically acclaimed".


[Disclaimer - I own Okami and I am going to start playing it tomorrow. I got it for $15 out of pocket though, because I didn't want to wait until February when this drops to $20.]

[Spades22]

Ya..what sells is crappy games where you shoot things and sport games that the casual gamer finds cool such as GTA and Madden...they aren't interested in these "wussy" games like Okami and stuff...gotta be mean and hardcore. (I play the "wussy" stuff, so don't think I like GTA)

[Kendal]

I didn't know FOX ran Capcom.

[CoffeeEdge]

Hopefully they'll bring some of their goodness to RE 5/Wii and maybe one of the new Mega Man franchises (or Mega Man 9/Legends 3, pleasepleasepleasepleasepleaseplease Capcom).

Mega Man 9 already exists...it's called Rockman & Forte / Megaman & Bass. Maybe you meant 10?

Also, to people saying that Viewtiful Joe sold poorly: It became a Player's Choice on Gamecube, and spawned a TV show. It couldn't have done THAT badly.


And Shipwreck, just a couple more caveats: You forgot to mention Dragon Quest VIII, which is cel-shaded, but sold fantastically.

[Blitz]

Cell- shaded games sell fine in the U.S. as long as it's a proven franchise(released by a big name company). Dragon Quest 8 sold quite well. Zelda WW sold very well. Viewtiful Joe also sold pretty damn well. If the next GTA or Halo was CS they would also sell well.

Spades22 is 100% right about what Americans want. Sad but true. Video Games now are about what your friend has which is why the Shit Box sells decently.

[Blind the Thief]

I didn't know FOX ran Capcom.

I can't stop laughing at this. :)



I'm very sad to see Clover dissolve, but I do agree with Capcom's decision; it was definitely the right move. Still, it's sad...I hope we see more awesome games come from ex-Clover people someday.

[LostRoad]

Mega Man 9 already exists...it's called Rockman & Forte / Megaman & Bass. Maybe you meant 10?

Also, to people saying that Viewtiful Joe sold poorly: It became a Player's Choice on Gamecube, and spawned a TV show. It couldn't have done THAT badly.


And Shipwreck, just a couple more caveats: You forgot to mention Dragon Quest VIII, which is cel-shaded, but sold fantastically.

Yeah, but it is Dragon Quest.

[Vinny]

Capcom should've sold them to Nintendo... Clover + Wii + DS = Godsend.

(Yes, I realize their first DS game sucked but I think they could've done better if they used an original property rather than one that's already established.)

This is sad news. As much as I hate Capcom for doing this, I can't blame them since they only did what was logical financially. This is the price of games becoming mainstream.

[Apossum]

The game won't sell well in the U.S.

I can't be the only one that can look at games prior to release and tell that they aren't going to sell... can I?

Things going against Okami selling well in the U.S.

1. The name Okami. This means nothing to Americans. It does not make one want to pick up the box, nor does it give one any idea what the game is about. (See also Otogi, Otogi 2, Odama)

2. The game looks cartoony. Cel shaded games do not sell in the States. Wind Waker gets a pass because people want to play Zelda, but even so, look at all the flack that game got due to it's art style. (See also Jet Set Radio Future, Viewtiful Joe, XIII)

3. It's a game where you fight as a wolf using caligraphy?!? This does not appeal to American audiences. I can't even come up with a see also here.

4. Bad timing. Everybody is getting ready for the big franchise releases just around the corner. To be honest, Okami actually probably couldn't have released at a much better time (maybe a little earlier in the summer would help), but if it was released any later it would have just gotten swallowed up by the big sellers for the holidays.


And this isn't the type of game that sells huge numbers at Wal-Mart. This is a video game for people that are really into video games (like people who visit this site), but it doesn't have crossover appeal outside of the people that care if a game is "critically acclaimed".


[Disclaimer - I own Okami and I am going to start playing it tomorrow. I got it for $15 out of pocket though, because I didn't want to wait until February when this drops to $20.]



There is a happy medium.

Look at Atlus, Nippon Ichi, Koei, Tecmo or several other companies that are pretty much driven by a small group of franchises....Their business models and marketing probably would've worked great for Okami. The game took so long because they had Clover multi-tasking on the VJ DS, PSP, GC, and PS2 games, as well as Godhand. Scratch out all that junk and we would've had the game a year ago and they would've had a couple extra million in their pockets. Even Godhand could've been improved in that whole time.

But Capcom wanted the next hot mascot...I have no doubt we would've seen Okami Kart Racer for the PSP sometime next year had this not happened :roll:
anyway, if Capcom had managed them better...instead of having them work on VJ games that were destined to fail after the first one didn't catch on...they may have had a nice strong division for niche games.

[shipwreck]

There is a happy medium.

Look at Atlus, Nippon Ichi, Koei, Tecmo or several other companies that are pretty much driven by a small group of franchises....Their business models and marketing probably would've worked great for Okami. The game took so long because they had Clover multi-tasking on the VJ DS, PSP, GC, and PS2 games, as well as Godhand. Scratch out all that junk and we would've had the game a year ago and they would've had a couple extra million in their pockets. Even Godhand could've been improved in that whole time.

But Capcom wanted the next hot mascot...I have no doubt we would've seen Okami Kart Racer for the PSP sometime next year had this not happened :roll:
anyway, if Capcom had managed them better...instead of having them work on VJ games that were destined to fail after the first one didn't catch on...they may have had a nice strong division for niche games.

Yep, I'll agree with all of that, although this starts to get into more of the differences between the companies, rather than how well a game will sell in the States. The main difference between those smaller companies and Capcom though is expectations. Capcom widely distributes it's games in massive numbers to all retailers and wants blockbuster sales numbers which requires infiltrating more that just the core group of gamers. They seem to have bad judgment as to what will actually sell in the States in regards to the amount of money they are investing in producing a game.

Atlus, Nippon Ichi, and Koei are all three companies that generally stay in the same genre RPG/Strategy games and they have loyal followings among those types of gamers. They ship smaller quantities of games and have obviously found a way to make money while not selling a huge quantity of games. They know their niche, they know how many games they expect to sell, and they don't produce an absurd amount of product that won't sell. Nippon Ichi worries me sometimes though as they seem to be putting out a lot of product that sits on shelves for awhile now. All of these companies apparently know how to balance development costs with the number of copies that they'll sell to what is actually a relatively small portion of gamers.

Tecmo is a little different from those three as they have some titles that cross over to the mainstream like Dead or Alive and Ninja Gaiden. They know those games are going to sell like crazy, but they temper their expectations and their production runs of titles like the Fatal Frame series. They've got a much different approach than what Capcom does and as pointed out, a much smaller group of core franchises to handle.

[Brak]

(it's morons, not morans.)
He's the one they call "Dr. Killjoy".

[Roufuss]

There is a happy medium.

Look at Atlus, Nippon Ichi, Koei, Tecmo or several other companies that are pretty much driven by a small group of franchises....Their business models and marketing probably would've worked great for Okami. The game took so long because they had Clover multi-tasking on the VJ DS, PSP, GC, and PS2 games, as well as Godhand. Scratch out all that junk and we would've had the game a year ago and they would've had a couple extra million in their pockets. Even Godhand could've been improved in that whole time.

But Capcom wanted the next hot mascot...I have no doubt we would've seen Okami Kart Racer for the PSP sometime next year had this not happened :roll:
anyway, if Capcom had managed them better...instead of having them work on VJ games that were destined to fail after the first one didn't catch on...they may have had a nice strong division for niche games.

I don't know... do you have sales numbers that indicate Viewtiful Joe failed? Like it was said, it went player choice for the Gamecube, it got its own anime, and Clover envisioned the games as a trilogy... they were going to make sequels whether Capcom told them to or not, so bringing up the fact that they were "forced" to make sequels is kind of ridiculous. Clover obviously wanted sequels since the first and second game each blatantly tied into a sequel.

I mean, Viewtiful Joe got TONS of accolades and LOTS of praise, more than any other game Clover ever did, so to say it "didn't really catch on", well, that will require proof.

I mean, Clover released it's games on a decent timeframe... VJ 2 came out in 2004, the VJ games for PSP / DS came out in 2005, and Okami and Godhand came out in 2006. We don't really have evidence as to how large their team was, how much other Capcom studios were helping them, anything like that.

Capcom may whore out its games but its mostly confined to sequels these days, and that's it. They occasionally experimented with SSBM type games but threw that aside after it failed with Onimusha and Viewtiful Joe.

I mean, imo, Clover made one really good game, and that was Okami, and that won't even sell in the US. The only reason it would have sold better if Atlus or someone made it was because everyone would have thought it would be rare and would have run out and snatched it up.

It should have come out during the summer, but now it will be quickly forgotten as Bully, FFXII, and the PS3 / Wii draw near.

I mean, I'm pretty sure Capcom isn't dissolving Clover just because they are bored or hate them, it's probably that Capcom invested alot of money into Clover and they aren't really making it back, and that's nobody's fault except for the game buyer. I liken it to the whole Nintendo / Rare thing awhile ago, and how Nintendo just decided to let them go (best decision they ever made, probably, as Rare hasn't had a good game in a loooooooooong time).

[Roufuss]

They seem to have bad judgment as to what will actually sell in the States in regards to the amount of money they are investing in producing a game.
.

I think Dead Rising changed that, and I have a feeling Lost Planet will too. They seem to realize what will sell over here now, and that is action games, like DMC, Dead Rising, etc.

Most companies wouldn't even have taken a chance on bringing Okami out over here... if Capcom does one thing right, is that it brings almost everything it makes out to the US. The same can't be said about alot of companies.

[CoffeeEdge]

Yeah, but it is Dragon Quest.
Which has never really been a major franchise in the US, up until DQ VIII. Your point is moot.

[SMMM]

Which has never really been a major franchise in the US, up until DQ VIII. Your point is moot.

It had a ton of commercials and came with a FF11 demo.

[FriskyTanuki]

Make that; original games that DIDN'T suck.

I hope this doesn't mean no VJ3 or Okami 2 :(

BTW VJ2 wasn't horrible. Sure, it wasn't VJ1, but it was still pretty good. Can't speak for Godhand though.
I don't believe Clover was ever planning on making an Okami 2, as it was supposed to be just a single game IP.

[gunm]

The game won't sell well in the U.S.

I can't be the only one that can look at games prior to release and tell that they aren't going to sell... can I?

<snip>



Preachin' to the choir Ship--I was addressing the guy who was refuting my post. Yeah, basically I was agreeing with you and asking him to show me hard numbers before making the leap from gamestore experience to national sales report.

More from Kotaku about the details.

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/mikami/capcom-on-clover-closing-207287.php

[The Mana Knight]

Which has never really been a major franchise in the US, up until DQ VIII. Your point is moot.DQVIII was still not as big of a success Square Enix wanted. It wasn't even listed on NPDs top sale charts from what I remember, when it came out. The game definitely sold better than any DQ game in the U.S., but it was still far more successful in Japan and even Europe (in Europe, sold 600k in less than a month).

[nintendokid]

I have so much respect for Atlus, Nippon Ichi, Koei, Agetec (haven't heard anything from them in a while), and the other smaller companies. They only own about 5% of the market but they only produce quality stuff which is not determined by the MSRP or the review scores of the game. Clover Studios should have disbanded from Capcom and formed their own company. With talent like that, they'd be able to find fundings in no time.

[Vinny]

I have so much respect for Atlus, Nippon Ichi, Koei, Agetec (haven't heard anything from them in a while), and the other smaller companies. They only own about 5% of the market but they only produce quality stuff which is not determined by the MSRP or the review scores of the game. Clover Studios should have disbanded from Capcom and formed their own company. With talent like that, they'd be able to find fundings in no time.

But with sales figures of their games, who would want to publish their games? Maybe someone like Atlus, since they publish a lot of stuff from smaller companies. But other companies want developers who make large profits and properties that are sequel prone.

BTW, Okami's September sales were... 87K according to the NPD. Absolutely amazing how masterpieces like this hardly get noticed while shit like Dirge of Cerberus still sells 100K two months after its release.

http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=7053

[Roufuss]

But with sales figures of their games, who would want to publish their games? Maybe someone like Atlus, since they publish a lot of stuff from smaller companies. But other companies want developers who make large profits and properties that are sequel prone.

BTW, Okami's September sales were... 87K according to the NPD. Absolutely amazing how masterpieces like this hardly get noticed while shit like Dirge of Cerberus still sells 100K two months after its release.

http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=7053

It's a good start but I think sales numbers will be cut in 1/2 or more for next month... you also have to compare Okami, a new release, to all the older games on that list that are still selling high numbers compared to a new release.

Valkyrie Profile 2 failed big time... I'm REALLY surprised to see Enchanted Arms so high up on the list.

[Weedy649]

Which has never really been a major franchise in the US, up until DQ VIII. Your point is moot.


DQ has become a major franchise because its Square Enix now, the name square will attract millions of final fantasy fans who were looking for a major rpg fix. If you look at it, the last normal final fantasy hadnt come out since FFX, so this was bound to sell well(esp with FFXII demo).


As for clover, good riddance...for capcom at least. I think people are forgetting that Capcom is a business. I dont think they care if VJ became a players choice or if Okami is critically acclaimed.

Companies only know two things, red and green. You can sell 500 million copies of a game, but if it doesnt make a profit(green) you are only losing money(red). If you continue being in the red, you will find yourself out of business. I think Capcom made a smart move in cutting their losses before they got worse, even though i personally liked Clover games(GH looks like it sucks though).

The thing that sucks is that games like these dont appeal to the normal gamer, only those type that visit sites like CAG as someone mentioned earlier. At the same time, the type of person to visit this site is also the type to wait and get the game cheap.


Long story short:
Original games are very hit or miss, which is why we wait on a verdict and a price drop, but i bet most of these same people will be getting the new Zelda on launch without so much as looking at a review. So yes we are as much to blame as capcom is and clover is. It just didnt work out.

[nintendokid]

So, how do we take back the train? Because now, the train has become the "Grand Madden Auto Fantasy Turismo" and we have no choice but to take a ticket...or get run over.

[The Mana Knight]

Valkyrie Profile 2 failed big time... I'm REALLY surprised to see Enchanted Arms so high up on the list.Well, the game was released kind of late in the month, so I won't judge sales until October. I didn't even see DDR SuperNOVA listed and normally the DDR games sell around 400k. I'm thinking the game should still get 100k.

As for Enchanted Arms, it doesn't surprise me it's selling. It's the only JRPG on teh 360 right now, where most everyone who has some interest into them bought it (A friend of mine who has a PS2, but is kind of a PS2 hater, won't buy a single good PS2 RPG but will buy them for 360 and Cube). If Enchanted Arms was on PS2 (and let's say it still looked impressive), it would sell less than 50k I'd bet (PS2 is saturated in RPGs). Once more JRPGs are out, I expect sales to drop. The first JRPG on PS2 (I'm not going to inculde Evergrace, Orphen, etc.) Dark Cloud sold 500k, and most PS2 RPGs didn't even sell that high, despite being much better.

[guinaevere]

Simply put, Mikami and the others felt that RE4 shouldn't have been released on the PS2.

A true artist never sells a painting and then proceed to paint the same piece....
At least, not on an inferior canvas.

Atlus, Nippon Ichi, and Koei are all three companies <snip> All of these companies apparently know how to balance development costs with the number of copies that they'll sell to what is actually a relatively small portion of gamers.
With the exception of Atlus which does a few different type games, NI and Koei do save enormous costs by cutting man-hours in development with simple updating/ tweaking of their engines and/or re-skinning BG/FG/character models.

Of course it's after 2am so I'm sure I just said the above incoherently. Take it with a grain of something. I'll be having tea in Strells backyard.

[Mr. Anderson]

Well, that blows. I remember buying VJ off my friend a couple of months after it came out, and almost putting my face through the TV due to the game's difficulty. Guess I should pick up Okami as a final send-off. Thanks for the memories, Clover.

[Z-Saber]

God Hand is freakin tough as well. I haven't beaten one stage without dying.

[Apossum]

Yep, I'll agree with all of that, although this starts to get into more of the differences between the companies, rather than how well a game will sell in the States. The main difference between those smaller companies and Capcom though is expectations. Capcom widely distributes it's games in massive numbers to all retailers and wants blockbuster sales numbers which requires infiltrating more that just the core group of gamers. They seem to have bad judgment as to what will actually sell in the States in regards to the amount of money they are investing in producing a game.

Atlus, Nippon Ichi, and Koei are all three companies that generally stay in the same genre RPG/Strategy games and they have loyal followings among those types of gamers. They ship smaller quantities of games and have obviously found a way to make money while not selling a huge quantity of games. They know their niche, they know how many games they expect to sell, and they don't produce an absurd amount of product that won't sell. Nippon Ichi worries me sometimes though as they seem to be putting out a lot of product that sits on shelves for awhile now. All of these companies apparently know how to balance development costs with the number of copies that they'll sell to what is actually a relatively small portion of gamers.

Tecmo is a little different from those three as they have some titles that cross over to the mainstream like Dead or Alive and Ninja Gaiden. They know those games are going to sell like crazy, but they temper their expectations and their production runs of titles like the Fatal Frame series. They've got a much different approach than what Capcom does and as pointed out, a much smaller group of core franchises to handle.


Fair enough. I think Clover could've been managed and cultivated better, balancing dev costs and production, so as to gain a loyal following like those other companies. Of course, we wouldn't have Okami as it is today without a 4 year dev cycle and absurd amounts of cash thrown into it.

One big problem with capcom is that they over-produced an absurd amount of product-- I mean every store has like 5000 viewtiful joe games sitting on the shelves, clearanced out at $5. to me that's a sign that they were overconfident in clover.

I mean, imo, Clover made one really good game, and that was Okami, and that won't even sell in the US. The only reason it would have sold better if Atlus or someone made it was because everyone would have thought it would be rare and would have run out and snatched it up.

It should have come out during the summer, but now it will be quickly forgotten as Bully, FFXII, and the PS3 / Wii draw near.

I mean, I'm pretty sure Capcom isn't dissolving Clover just because they are bored or hate them, it's probably that Capcom invested alot of money into Clover and they aren't really making it back, and that's nobody's fault except for the game buyer. I liken it to the whole Nintendo / Rare thing awhile ago, and how Nintendo just decided to let them go (best decision they ever made, probably, as Rare hasn't had a good game in a loooooooooong time).

i don't think people buy atlus games just because they think they'll become rare. A few internet game fans may do that...

i never said they were bored with them :-P I know they've thrown tons of cash into them, I'm saying the team seemed like it was managed poorly. I have no evidence for that, other than the various VJ games for all systems rotting on shelves nationwide.