Resistance: FOM fits on a standard DVD, Blu-Ray game uses 17gb of garbage padding!

[Ruined]

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/11/26/resistance-17-75gb-of-garbage/

Resistance: Fall of Man was billed to be the defining game for why Blu-ray exists in the first place. Resistance developers Insomniac stated that the game took up 22GB of space and that all those bits and bytes were necessary to make the game work. It would seem that ripping the disk in Linux shows otherwise.

A NeoGAF forum member by the name of squatingyeti posted a long list of padding files on the Resistance disk; the padding took up approximately 17.75GB of space. Padding is frequently used to push data to the outer edges of the disk to improve read times, but Blu-ray is supposed to be a constant read over the entire disk.

Sony misleads its fanbase yet again.

Blu-Ray: Taking gaming to the next level of disc filler.

[himsahealer]

We all knew that Resistance was possible on the 360 after seeing a game like Gears of War. Only the strongest of fanboys denied it.

[Ruined]

We all knew that Resistance was possible on the 360 after seeing a game like Gears of War. Only the strongest of fanboys denied it.

The sooner potential PS3 buyers realize Sony is taking them to the cleaners in an attempt to sell their home theater format (which is getting its butt kicked right now) and nothing more the better. You are paying $200 extra for a PS3 with BetamaxHD/Blu-Ray builtin as Sony did not want to follow the HD DVD open standard.

That is, unless you feel auto_generated_padding00 through auto_generated_padding60 are vital files to resistance. :)

[jlarlee]

I'm sure a few years from now games won't fit anymore. Keep in mind it is the first crop

[sonderiaom]

It is possible that the data isn't fully true and we would like to see some confirmation. However, if this report that 81% of Resistance is just empty filler and could fit on a single-layer DVD is true, will this put a hole in Sony's claim that Blu-ray is absolutely necessary this generation? The padding isn't needed to make the read speeds any better and (if true) is a lame way for Sony to justify Blu-ray for gaming.

Though I dislike the PS3's launch and blu-ray, the complete article would be a much better representation.

[mykevermin]

To be fair, one game doesn't mean squat. As we see a game like Blue Dragon, which comes out on the 360 in Japan in two weeks, requires 3 DVDs to fit on, either an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray format can prove to be useful.

Perhaps not right at this moment. I can deal with changing discs on Blue Dragon. However, it is evidence that we will, over time, see more games that are too large for the DVD format. Resistance might not prove that BR is a necessity, but that isn't evidence that it was a foolish plan. Let's see how games work in a few years, and what's included in them. Perhaps we'll see stuff left out of the 360/Wii versions, or perhaps we'll see a "lowest common denominator" mentality, where the self-fulfilling prophecy of DVD standard renders the BR format impotent, rather than what developers would like to actually do with their games.

So...you were saying?

[panasonic]

final fantasy will probably need all the space it can get

[White-Wolf]

if it ever comes out on the ps3 that is. if its comeing from enix dont hold your breath, becuse they said they going to give all systems alittle something. basicly they are unsure of the ps3 and are going to sit on FF intill they are sure its right for the ps3. anything could happen.

[62t]

whats the point? Many Xbox 360 games are filled with GB of dummy data.

[PenguinMaster]

whats the point? Many Xbox 360 games are filled with GB of dummy data.

The point is that the space of a BR disc isn't needed. The fact that an entire DVD isn't even needed for Xbox 360 games just proves the point furthur.

[SteveMcQ]

What's the big deal about having to change discs anyway? It's not as if you're swapping discs back and forth every 15 minutes. If anything you'll play one part of the game for hours on end, switch discs and never look at the old disc again.

[apokalipze2]

Some people are lazy:roll:

[getmyrunon]

Dear 360 Fanboys/Trolls:

I have some questions.

Why are you so insecure? Why do you care so much about another console if the 360 is so much better? Why do you get erections every time you find an article that badmouths the PS3? Why do you think that a Joystiq blog entry about a NEOGaf post is even the least bit legitimate? Why are you such tools?

Thanks. (Notice that I own a 360).

[panasonic]

Dear 360 Fanboys/Trolls:

I have some questions.

Why are you so insecure? Why do you care so much about another console if the 360 is so much better? Why do you get erections every time you find an article that badmouths the PS3? Why do you think that a Joystiq blog entry about a NEOGaf post is even the least bit legitimate? Why are you such tools?

Thanks. (Notice that I own a 360).

Because they are fanboys, but nintendo fanboys are horrible

[paz9x]

Dear 360 Fanboys/Trolls:

I have some questions.

Why are you so insecure? Why do you care so much about another console if the 360 is so much better? Why do you get erections every time you find an article that badmouths the PS3? Why do you think that a Joystiq blog entry about a NEOGaf post is even the least bit legitimate? Why are you such tools?

Thanks. (Notice that I own a 360).
actually, i find most of the bitterness is at sony itself not directly at the console. anyhow its interesting at the least.

[CounterSeal]

How will multiple dvds for an open ended game work? A game like Oblivion for example. You can't just progress from one zone to the next and never go back. If you use multiple dvds for an open ended game, a player may have to switch between discs each time they travel between zones/cities/etc.

[slimpip]

Did you just read the title or what?

Resistance is only 16GB... TOTAL. Thus, with 17GB of padding, Resistance has a total disc size of... -1 GB!


Joystiq I salute you and your journalistic integrity!

Not only have they misreported the GAF thread, they also ignored Ted Price's more recent comments about Resistance shipping at around 16GB. If you're not interested in learning what the actual disc usage is, please look away now:

The numbers associated with each file are the LBA index, each LBA has a block size = 2kb. Determining the difference between one LBA index with the next indicates the number of blocks a given file occupies. This means that:

Padding file size = 32MB.
Total padding = 1.9GB.
Total FMV = 7GB.
Audio = 2.24GB. (605MB for music and English language only)
Game Assets = 6.12GB.

So you can go back to being insecure about video games and the DVD wars now, it's OK. You're not alone.

[whoknows]

Did you just read the title or what?

Resistance is only 16GB... TOTAL. Thus, with 17GB of padding, Resistance has a total disc size of... -1 GB!



So you can go back to being insecure about video games and the DVD wars now, it's OK. You're not alone.
-1 GB! Sony should have just used Floppy disks :lol:

Can this topic be locked now?

[Zoglog]

Typical Joystiq blurting out crap before it's confirmed just to get a little Sony Bashing goin.

However it's not suprising if much of resistance's space is used for the high quality FMV. There is a severe lack of pixelation in those cutscenes ;)

The only thing that bugs me the most is that games are not required to be @ 1080p.

[jer7583]

Either way, Blu-Ray/PS3 isn't about games, it's about Sony establishing themselves as the next generation film media so they can get some cash flow. Can't deny that.

Next question is why buy a game machine whose maker's primary concern is not games?

[panasonic]

Either way, Blu-Ray/PS3 isn't about games, it's about Sony establishing themselves as the next generation film media so they can get some cash flow. Can't deny that.

Next question is why buy a game machine whose maker's primary concern is not games?

Sony first party is just as great as nintendo when they make a game most times its worth playing. At least thats how it is on PSP and PS2 and everyone bashes the hell out of psp

[slimpip]

Either way, Blu-Ray/PS3 isn't about games, it's about Sony establishing themselves as the next generation film media so they can get some cash flow. Can't deny that.

Next question is why buy a game machine whose maker's primary concern is not games?

That's why I didn't buy it :lol:

[PawnTakesKing]

Sony first party is just as great as nintendo

I don't know whether to laugh hysterically or bludgeon you repeatedly.

[jer7583]

Sony first party is just as great as nintendo when they make a game most times its worth playing. At least thats how it is on PSP and PS2 and everyone bashes the hell out of psp

Wow. Way to show why Sony is #1. Ignorance of the masses will always succeed over quality. Have fun with those Sony media trojan horses.

[paz9x]

Sony first party is just as great as nintendo when they make a game most times its worth playing. At least thats how it is on PSP and PS2 and everyone bashes the hell out of psp
examples?

[Brian9824]

Insomniac stated that the game took up 22GB of space and that all those bits and bytes were necessary to make the game work. It would seem that ripping the disk in Linux shows otherwise.




I don't see how insomniac saying that translates into sony saying that.

[dpatel]

Sony does have a pretty good first party line up. Of course, it depends on what you consider first party. This is what I consider first party:

Gran Turismo
Ratchet and Clank Series
Ico
SoTC
Killzone
Resistance
Genji
Socom
Jack & Daxter
Crash Bandicoot
Sly Cooper
God of War

I may be missing some, and some of these may be wrong. However, I think Sony does have a pretty solid first party line-up. Most of those were added with the PS2 gen, so we may see new ones spring up the PS3 gen.

[Dezuria]

Sony does have a pretty good first party line up. Of course, it depends on what you consider first party. This is what I consider first party:

Gran Turismo
Ratchet and Clank Series
Ico
SoTC
Killzone
Resistance
Genji
Socom
Jack & Daxter
Crash Bandicoot
Sly Cooper
God of War

I may be missing some, and some of these may be wrong. However, I think Sony does have a pretty solid first party line-up. Most of those were added with the PS2 gen, so we may see new ones spring up the PS3 gen.

Most of those are 3rd party. They are system exlusives for sure, but that doesn't mean Sony developed them.

[dpatel]

Most of those are 3rd party. They are system exlusives for sure, but that doesn't mean Sony developed them.

Actually, I think alot of those are considered first party, even though they are developed by different companies.

[pellucidity]

examples?

I quite liked God of War and I'm a WipEout junkie. First-party, second-party are kind of blurred these days - and Nintendo's is best anyway. It just is.


Seriously, we all know that the PS2 bludgeoned the other two consoles to death based on its third party support. And it did piss on the other two, make no mistake. 130m sold vs 25m and 24m is murder.

The article this thread refers to isn't as bad as some though: one blogger asked why fucking MADDEN on PS3 fits on a DVD. Because we all know that EA drop everything to make the first version on a new console perfect :wall: .

[elwood731]

Actually, I think alot of those are considered first party, even though they are developed by different companies.
The developers of R&C and Resistance consider themselves a 2nd party developer, I think. Unless Sony outright owns the company, they are 2nd or 3rd.

[dpatel]

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/704/704998p1.html
* ATV Offroad Fury Pro (PSP --With compatibility with PS2 title ATV Offroad Fury 4)
* ATV Offroad Fury 4 (PS2)
* Gangs of London (PSP)
* God of War II (PS2)
* Killzone: Liberation (PSP)
* Lemmings (PSP)
* LocoRoco (PSP)
* NBA '07 (PS2/PSP)
* Ratchet and Clank: Size Matters (PSP)
* Rogue Galaxy (PS2)
* SOCOM: U.S. Navy SEALs Fireteam Bravo 2 (PSP)
* SOCOM: U.S. Navy SEALs Combined Assault (PS2)
* World Tour Soccer '06 (PSP)

That is the best thing I could find about Sony's first party titles. It doesn't show ALL of them, but it shows what they had to offer at the time. I think my list is pretty accurate, but I can seem to find any proof that they are first party.

The developers of R&C and Resistance consider themselves a 2nd party developer, I think. Unless Sony outright owns the company, they are 2nd or 3rd.

Well, on IGN, the Ratchet and Clank game is listed as a first party title.

[pellucidity]

Stolen from AVSforums poster yoyoniner, this should settle why the PS3 has blu-ray
Squaresoft

Toriyama and Versus producer Shinji Hashimoto defended the decision to release FFXIII on the PS3. According to Hashimoto, the development staff determined that one DVD would not be enough for the type of visual expression they were attempting to make. Toriyama noted that, regarding visual expression, the PS3's shader abilities are a big factor.

http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/710/710761p1.html

Ubisoft

OPM: How's your experience with the storage media of the PS3, the HDD and the BluRay disc? And do you have any comparable experience with HD-DVD technology?

M.M.: Our focus is 100% BluRay, so I cannot compare with HD-DVD. I can only say that the new BluRay disc format is truly awesome. The capacity is immense, and the Data Transfer Rate is way beyond what we are used to. And that's really important, because Data Streaming (OPMED: where the console constantly loads new data from disc) is truly the only way to push next-gen games to the limit. The Playstation 3 HDD is something that we have so far given less attention to, because it hasn't been certain all that long yet that it will be standard on every console. Decreasing load-times by copying a part of the game to the HDD is one possibility, though it doesn't matter all that much for a streaming game like ours. But there are tons of other applications, such as the possibility to as it were record your whole game, to be able to watch a replay of it later on. We intend to use the HD optimally, but how, I can't tell yet currently.

Starbreeze

"The 360 is a fantastic machine. I really really like it. The only thing, you know, that is going to cause trouble is the amount of storage space available on a DVD... thats really a problem."

http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=446554

Team Ninja

"The infamous Team Ninja front man has a thing or two to say about Microsoft's decision to assign standard DVD format to the Xbox 360. Limiting his development team to a measly 9GB does not sit well with Itagaki, especially when Team Ninja is looking to include any number of (MS-coveted) HD cut scenes. It's ironic that Microsoft has been the most outspoken about the "HD era", but is the least prepared for it… However, don't be surprised to see an Xbox 360.1 springing up in a year or two, complete with HD-DVD drive."

Last year, interview with Famitisu magainze, Itagaki explained his frustration with MS going with standard DVD format instead of going with HD-DVD. Since Japaneese developers love working on games in CG, now Itagaki san will face even more great challenge with xbox 360, or he can just switch over.

http://www.joystiq.com/2005/07/05/i...60-limitations/

Enchant Arms

"The developer of "Enchant Arms," an upcoming role-playing game in Japan, told Gamespot.com last year it was hoping to be able to fit the game on two discs, but admitted "that's even looking grim." Any old school gamer can tell you that switching discs while playing is not a fun experience."

http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/05/com...aming/index.htm

Vivendi Universal

"The technical requirement for game development today demands more advanced optical-disc technologies," said Michael Heilmann, chief technology officer for Vivendi Universal.
"Blu-ray offers the capacity[.]"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4153813.stm

EA

"EA, a leading games developer and publisher, added that the delivery of high-definition games of the future was vital and Blu-ray had the capacity, functionality and interactivity needed for the kinds of projects it was planning."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4153813.stm

F1 06 developpers

Quote:
Q: Will the graphics improve from F1 05?

A: We try hard every year to improve where neccessary, but as I said before, the PS2 is running on it’s limits with the 22 cars. Graphically it is similar to F105, although we believe that the driving experience is much more rewarding with the new kerbing and the new phyiscs. The PS3, though, is something else! That machine is a Beast! We are adding an enormous amount of graphic detail to absolutely everything. To give you some idea about detail levels, one car in the PS3 game takes up the same amount of memory as all 22 cars in the PS2 version!! That’s a 22 fold increase! You can damage the sidepods on the PS3 cars and see in side the car and it has radiators and exhaust pipes and everything. It’s awesome. Gameplay-wise the PS3 also allows us to use much more accuarate collision models. In a PS2, the car has an invisible ”box” that detects collisions all the way around the car, but in the PS3, there is no single box – you can get the wheels interlocked with the other cars.

http://www.f1gamers.com/f1/apanel/v...p?id=130&page=4

Ninja Theory

Well i want to ask something if i may.Do you guys use/plan to use the extra space the blu-ray provides,for the benefit of the game,or its just to early for that yet?

Quote:Originally Posted by Arfi-Gorgona-O
Guys,someone to answer my question too?At least tell me if you cant so i wont ask again,even a no comment is good enough for me

Quote:Originally Posted by Ninja Mikey
[NT-DEV] Chief Technology Ninja

Sorry Arfi - let's see if we can't get you a decent answer....

"Yes!"

There you go

Seriously though the game is gonna need a whole lot of data for all the levels and characters that we are planning. At Sony's presentation on Monday last week they had a slide showing that the storage medium for a console is usually 100 times the size of the consoles main RAM - the point being that a DVD wouldn't be able to hold enough data for a AAA quality game. So yes, we'll definitely be needing the space that's available on the BD!

http://www.ninjatheory.com/forums/s...hp?t=111&page=3

Epic

http://www.computerandvideogames.co...e.php?id=125925

Unreal Tournament was 6GB compressed. Next Generation games are going to be 20GB plus, and how we're going to fit them on DVD9's I don't know, they'll probably be a few of them. On the PS3, we're going to be using the majority of the space on those Blu-ray disks. So, online isn't really the best option in some instances. Downloading 30Gb isn't really feasible.

[h2dk]

I really only read the last couple of quotes...

"A DVD wouldn't be able to hold enough data for a AAA quality game"

"Next generation games are going to be 20GB plus"

3 words.... Gears of War

[pellucidity]

I really only read the last couple of quotes...

"A DVD wouldn't be able to hold enough data for a AAA quality game"

"Next generation games are going to be 20GB plus"

3 words.... Gears of War

Some people who've played it (I haven't) have stated they think some, but not all of the textures are lacking. And it fills the DVD. Filling the media with a short game one year into a console's life span is not good.

Also, the 360's maximum media size to memory size ration is out of whack with consoles, historically. Having lots of RAM is good, but small media isn't.

Yes, RPGs can use multiple disks, but what about sandbox games? Oblivion or GTA would suck on two disks.

[White-Wolf]

Stolen from AVSforums poster yoyoniner, this should settle why the PS3 has blu-ray
I wont deny that the 360 is screwd. The size of disc needed for hd games does need to be bigger then a dvd. The textures needed for hd games it crazy. Although i will still back the wii. If we take a texture ment for 480p and resize it (assumeing no data loss) for a 1080p game, that 1080 texture takes up 4x the amount of space as a 480 game, sometimes more. So a dvd is an ok size for 480 game and is not limiting, but xbox is in big trubble i think, as they are going head to head with sony, and the wii is using the back door so to speek.

the idea that blur ray lets dev's do more with games is deceptive if they are going to be using 1080i/p the textures needed for it, scale with the size of the blue ray compaired to non hd systems that use dvd.

[Kayden]

Well, look at the PS1 and PS2. At first, everyone said it was so stupid because you would NEVER! need that much room. 32mb (8 Megabytes) rom carts were plenty!

However, towards the middle/end of both consoles lives, games were coming out that were 2-4 disks long! Xenosaga 2 is 2 DVDs. Xenosaga 1 was a dual layer DVD. If the PS2, the "outdated, gee the textures look like shit" PS2, games are having troubles fitting on one disk, what does that really mean for new games that are supposed to look several times better? The Xeno series looks pretty damn good for PS2 graphics, but even 1st gen 360 games look way better. All that gloss comes at a hefty size requirement.

You guys can't have it both ways. You aren't going to get games that are 20 hours long, look great/720P and fit on a single DVD.

Its like saying you want supermodels that chow down porterhouse steaks every meal.

[jer7583]

Nobody actually believes that the low quality textures common on PS2 games were because of lack of space on DVDs..

If so we'd be seeing the same kind of texturing on Gears of War.

[FriskyTanuki]

.[Update 1] We got our answer, the entire thing is blown way out of proportion. There are still padding files, but they are a relatively meager 420MB per region.

[greedycheese]

This thread seems to have gotten sidetracked. To me, the point is not whether or not more storage space will be useful in the future (Obviously it will) the point is why would Insomniac feel compelled to artificially pad the size of Resistance?

Blu-Ray is supposed to read data at the same rate no matter where it is on the disk so pushing data to the outer rim for faster load is not the reason. So what gives?

[Kayden]

Nobody actually believes that the low quality textures common on PS2 games were because of lack of space on DVDs..

If so we'd be seeing the same kind of texturing on Gears of War.
Memory and GPU restrictions aside, those low quality textures still fill a DVD. Meaning, if the PS2 could handle 720P, the games would need to be 3 disks long or more.

Simply put, to see your average PS2 RPG in 720P on one disk, it'd have to be bigger than a dual layer DVD (9.5gb).

This thread seems to have gotten sidetracked. To me, the point is not whether or not more storage space will be useful in the future (Obviously it will) the point is why would Insomniac feel compelled to artificially pad the size of Resistance?

Blu-Ray is supposed to read data at the same rate no matter where it is on the disk so pushing data to the outer rim for faster load is not the reason. So what gives?

Actually, I think the bigger focus should be the fact that joystiq needs to stop being seen as a credible news sorce. :lol:

As for why the padding? Who knows. Maybe they wanted to space the data out so all the parts that get used together are in the same spot. Even if the disk is read at the same speed at all places, strategically placing the data physically can still cut down on the lateral motion of the reading lense subsequently prolonging the life of the laser assembly. *whew* Big sentance.

[hiccupleftovers]

I don't see how insomniac saying that translates into sony saying that.

Sony owns Insomniac

[Maynard]

Two facts.


Ruined is a 360 fucking fanboy who's just one mother fucking annoying dick. He always creates these dumb fucking threads than disappears, plus the info is already being taken back now. Ruined is like the smartest most amazing poster like eVar!



Insomniac is NOT owned by Sony in any way shape or form.

[slimpip]

This thread seems to have gotten sidetracked. To me, the point is not whether or not more storage space will be useful in the future (Obviously it will) the point is why would Insomniac feel compelled to artificially pad the size of Resistance?

Blu-Ray is supposed to read data at the same rate no matter where it is on the disk so pushing data to the outer rim for faster load is not the reason. So what gives?

The way the game is padded is with the pad files between the FMV files. I think it was done this way to reduce read errors rather than increase read speed. Perhaps it's because the Blu-Ray drives are not as reliable as they can be right now. A combo of both maybe?

In my opinion, I think it's to reduce read errors and to prevent any possible disc read error they can think of. They have the space to spare on the Blu-Ray discs, at least they're trying to put it to use.

Rest assured, they're not "artificially" padding the game, it's there for a reason.

edit: sorry if this post is somewhat incomprehensible, it's late. sleepy time.

[NamPaehc]

This is fuck'n crazy. It is like most of you are very misinformed OR you like misleading people OR your just pulling things out the air (or other places) to try and sound like you know what the Fuck your talking about.

Not knowing something that you could easily look up yourself is bad enough, but don't be lazy and instead start making stuff up or spatting false rumors and useless guesses that have no basis in reality.

[FriskyTanuki]

Sony owns Insomniac
No, they don't.

[Brian9824]

Yeah people are obviously just looking at any reason to yell at Sony. Hey look that guy jaywalked, it must be Sony's fault!