Pirating just cannot be stopped, Never!

[maxgle]

Hi all, I have friends who would constatntly laugh at me spending money on buying games when they are so proudly to just download it from the web. I try to convince them that how it will hurt the companies and gaming industry in the future, but I dont think they will ever stop.

Even if I can come up with the strongest arguement in the whle universe, I just don't think they will listen anyway. Why spend a dime when you got it for free?

So, what do you do when you have friends like these? or hear things like this happening? It's really upsetting me as a CAG who actually spend my time and effort looking for cheap games to buy without hurting the economy.

Any thought?

[Pylis]

Well, you're right, they won't listen, and piracy will likely get a helluva lot worse before it gets better. You're doing the right thing, so just be content with that. Short of running to the cops and tattling on them, you've pretty much done all that you can.

[punqsux]

yaaar

[peteloaf]

Well, as a collector I always think of a few things:

1 I've got the box & such - it just looks great on the shelf
2 No mod chip - no potentially botched system, I do have some modded consoles, but Imports, home brews are what they are for
3 The knowledge that I helped to feed the developer & there kids.

as far as dealing with friends who play boots - I just don't play with them, or talk to them about gaming - with a few exceptions:

Out of date consoles, who gets hurt if I play a burnt copy of sonic cd, it's on a no longer supported console - no money lost

Emulation: I can't afford an arcade machine, and in the case of things like the NES - if I realy like the game, I'll try to find it - but I have no probles emulating a 20 year old system

[dtcarson]

Resell value--resell value for a copy of 'Dom3' burned on to CD is probably very low.
People did a job, they deserve to get paid for it.
As socialist as some people are, people need to realize most people do things because they get a reward out of it--sometimes just pride, but you can't feed your family with pride.
And of course, piracy is stealing, stealing is wrong. If they can't understand that, they'll probably beyond help.

You're right, I don't think piracy can be stopped 100%. Ever. What can happen is it can be stigmatized and put 'back in the closet' so people don't think it's cool to 'rip off the Man.' Five or ten years from now, that pirate could be looking for a job from 'the Man', a job that is no longer there because sales are down.

[eldad9]

What you're asking about has two aspects:

The moral angle (which your friends obviously do not have, so it's pointless to discuss it)

and the free rider problem (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-rider/).

[MasterLin1]

I have a question...

How many of you refuse to pirate games, but pirate music and movies in any form?

For those who out right hate piraters of games, but pirate the latter, I can only call you hyporites.

This is not meant to bash, my only purpose is to point this out this glaring double standard.

[eldad9]

I have a question...
For those who out right hate piraters of games, but pirate the latter, I can only call you hyporites.

Perhaps you should take into account the different ways these three industries try to minimize the impact of copyright infringement?

[epobirs]

I pirated like crazy in the early 80's on the Atari computer scene. Then I got a job in a computer store. That didn't change anything because I told myself I was studying the products so I could be a better salesperson.

Yeah, right.

Then I got a job at a videogame company (Cinemaware) and my perspective changed a great deal.

[legion_stxds]

Wait unitl they have an intellectual property taken from them and then laugh at them and throw rocks... just kidding... ignore them and tell them that they will grow hair on their palms if they don't stop that bad behavior.

[eldad9]

Then I got a job at a videogame company (Cinemaware) and my perspective changed a great deal.

Say hi to Amber for us. What a nice girl, letting us know about those free games...

[MasterLin1]

I have a question...
For those who out right hate piraters of games, but pirate the latter, I can only call you hyporites.

Perhaps you should take into account the different ways these three industries try to minimize the impact of copyright infringement?]

Why should I? Its up to each industries supporters to know NOT to pirate the material. If people truly support these industries, they would know not to, and companies shouldn't have to take such big losses, and think of new ways to stop piracy. I'm 100% positive that everyone here loves videogames, movies, and music. But to say its OK to pirate one kind of material, but you should burn in hell to pirate another source is just hypocritical.

[eldad9]

Out of date consoles, who gets hurt if I play a burnt copy of sonic cd, it's on a no longer supported console - no money lost

If you suddenly own Sonic CD, you're less likely to buy the PC version which is available in stores, aren't you?

[eldad9]

Why should I?

Because some people, knowing what the music industry (in particular) is doing, will never do business with them.

Personally, I don't give them any money OR listen to their music, but I'm sure some people do just the former.

[peteloaf]

Out of date consoles, who gets hurt if I play a burnt copy of sonic cd, it's on a no longer supported console - no money lost

If you suddenly own Sonic CD, you're less likely to buy the PC version which is available in stores, aren't you?

O.K. bad choice of games - what about the sega cd game - Eternal Champions - what I mean is any game that is no longer commercialy available new.

[legion_stxds]

Third party sales hurt the industry... instead of you paying the companies for new products we buy them for less from another person... same with trading too.

[MasterLin1]

Why should I?

Because some people, knowing what the music industry (in particular) is doing, will never do business with them.

Personally, I don't give them any money OR listen to their music, but I'm sure some people do just the former.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. What is the music industry doing? Doing what its always been doing? Besides the fact that they're now punishing those who are STEALING their material? I see no wrong in bringing those to justice who are blatantly pirating music.

[legion_stxds]

Why should I?

Because some people, knowing what the music industry (in particular) is doing, will never do business with them.

Personally, I don't give them any money OR listen to their music, but I'm sure some people do just the former.
Yup... I won't buy a CD no matter what... and I wont download the music either... I will go to concerts and I listen to that old thang they call a radio.
There is one minor exception... CLUTCH!!!!

[eldad9]

Out of date consoles, who gets hurt if I play a burnt copy of sonic cd, it's on a no longer supported console - no money lost

If you suddenly own Sonic CD, you're less likely to buy the PC version which is available in stores, aren't you?

O.K. bad choice of games - what about the sega cd game - Eternal Champions - what I mean is any game that is no longer commercialy available new.

But if you're playing a fighting game (that's new to you) on any system, you're less likely to buy a new fighting game for, say, the GBA.

The industry - but perhaps no particular company - is still losing money.

Besides, what if the company decides to re-release the game? Will you suddenly buy it, even though you've already played (and completed it) last week? What about if you can only afford one game, and it's either the one you've played or a brand new one?

Of course the company's losing money.

[vherub]

to solve the problems of your friends lack of morality, i would begin "pirating" items from their home and/or wallets, especially those items you really want. If they never find out, they won't be hurt, and if they do find out, explain to them your reasoning that since you were able to get it for "free" you would have to be stupid to then pay for it.
I mean it would only be really wrong if you pirated stuff from your friends and then sold it, right?

[legion_stxds]

to solve the problems of your friends lack of morality, i would begin "pirating" items from their home and/or wallets, especially those items you really want. If they never find out, they won't be hurt, and if they do find out, explain to them your reasoning that since you were able to get it for "free" you would have to be stupid to then pay for it.
I mean it would only be really wrong if you pirated stuff from your friends and then sold it, right?

Awesome Idea!!!! I love it!

[eldad9]

to solve the problems of your friends lack of morality, i would begin "pirating" items from their home and/or wallets, especially those items you really want. If they never find out, they won't be hurt, and if they do find out, explain to them your reasoning that since you were able to get it for "free" you would have to be stupid to then pay for it.
I mean it would only be really wrong if you pirated stuff from your friends and then sold it, right?

Copyright infringement is not theft.

Let's say it all together now:

Copyright infringement is not theft.

[dtcarson]

I agree, there's not much difference between pirating games and pirating movies or music.
I think, while the industry/industries may not *like* the sale of pre-owned or 'old' stuff, that's part of the economy. There are always going to be collectors and people who will not spend 300 bucks for a new console but will buy a used game from a store for six bucks. Maybe eventually that person will get current and start buying new stuff. If nothing else, the person that guy bought from, now has a little more cash that he can spend on the new games. I don't think that is the same situation as with piracy at all. Besides, there are very few things that, once bought, can't be resold.

[peteloaf]

Out of date consoles, who gets hurt if I play a burnt copy of sonic cd, it's on a no longer supported console - no money lost

If you suddenly own Sonic CD, you're less likely to buy the PC version which is available in stores, aren't you?

O.K. bad choice of games - what about the sega cd game - Eternal Champions - what I mean is any game that is no longer commercialy available new.

But if you're playing a fighting game (that's new to you) on any system, you're less likely to buy a new fighting game for, say, the GBA.

The industry - but perhaps no particular company - is still losing money.

Besides, what if the company decides to re-release the game? Will you suddenly buy it, even though you've already played (and completed it) last week? What about if you can only afford one game, and it's either the one you've played or a brand new one?

Of course the company's losing money.


Well as far as rereleases, I personaly cannot see paying $20 for a GBA version of a Nintendo game. If the companies would give me incentive to buy a rerelease for a new system, I gladly would. Midways arcade treasures is a perfect exaple, a budget priced collection of games, with extras like interviews and articles. - As far as not spending money on new fighting games because I'm playing a bootleg of an old game, well for me that's never happened. I realy think that more incentives to buy would increase sales.

[legion_stxds]

to solve the problems of your friends lack of morality, i would begin "pirating" items from their home and/or wallets, especially those items you really want. If they never find out, they won't be hurt, and if they do find out, explain to them your reasoning that since you were able to get it for "free" you would have to be stupid to then pay for it.
I mean it would only be really wrong if you pirated stuff from your friends and then sold it, right?

Copyright infringement is not theft.

Let's say it all together now:

Copyright infringement is not theft.

Though it does lend itself to a loss in profit... why pay if the product is free somewhere else?

[PittsburghAfterDark]

Pirating will always exist, true. I'm not a fan of it. Do I download movies? No. Do I download music? When I'm drunk I download 80's songs you can't find in record stores anymore.

I know this won't stop many people that are pirates but I can't imagine tying up my bandwidth for God knows how long to download a 3 GB DVD/game. Not only that but my favorite games are on XBL and I"m not going to mod my Xbox and take it online.

Personally, I love the collecting aspect of gaming. You can't sell a burned copy of Suikoden II, Castlevania: SOTN/Chronicles, Intelligent Qube, Panzer Dragoon Saga or Rhapsody. If I just wanted to play games pirating might appeal to me. However the collector in me scoffs at the notion of such a practice.

EDIT: The only area of gaming I understand piracy is in emulation. I'm of the belief that if a company isn't going to make a commercial copy available of a title it's fair game. All those 2600, Intellivision or ColecoVision or MAME emulators? I don't see the harm. Ditto NES, SMS, Genesis or SNES emulators.

I fully agree with the poster above. How is $20 for the NES version of Donkey Kong a fair value for the GBA? Hell, it doesn't even have the Cement Factory level. They made an inferior version compared to what was on the TI-99/4A for Chrissakes. They gave away the original Zelda with GCN's at Xmas. Why should I pay $20 for a GBA version. Again, not a good value.[/b]

[Dr Mario Kart]

the estimates of how much money piracy (games or music) costs the industry is overestimated. If you take someone who is pirating, and you magically make it to where he is not pirating, you still dont get his money either way. He'll either not play those games or just borrow them from someone who has it. Those that want to pirate things, can. So jacking up the cost to the consumer by coming up with new security that is cracked immediately, doesnt actually do anything.

[MasterLin1]

EDIT: The only area of gaming I understand piracy is in emulation. I'm of the belief that if a company isn't going to make a commercial copy available of a title it's fair game. All those 2600, Intellivision or ColecoVision or MAME emulators? I don't see the harm. Ditto NES, SMS, Genesis or SNES emulators.
[/b]

I disagree with the NES, Genesis, and SNES emulators. If you mean playing ONLY the games that can honestly no longer be found, thats fine. However, if people are playing games on those emulators that can still be found relatively easy in auctions, garage sales, pawn shops, used games stores, I disagree.

[eshbums]

If you feel strongly enough about piracy, turn one of them in. Maybe not necessarily one of your friends, but an unusually annoying acquantance. Sometimes all it takes is a "friend of a friend who knew this guy...." getting busted and fined to make people stop.

I'm kind of in the same boat as you are, but when my friends laugh because I'm spending money on games/movies, I remind them that I won't get arrested for playing/watching the ones that I actually own.

[eldad9]

EDIT: The only area of gaming I understand piracy is in emulation. I'm of the belief that if a company isn't going to make a commercial copy available of a title it's fair game. All those 2600, Intellivision or ColecoVision or MAME emulators? I don't see the harm. Ditto NES, SMS, Genesis or SNES emulators.[/b]

And when Atari or Activision release a collection of dozens of their games for $20, do you bother to purchase it?

[eldad9]

I'm kind of in the same boat as you are, but when my friends laugh because I'm spending money on games/movies, I remind them that I won't get arrested for playing/watching the ones that I actually own.

Not anything that's illegal will get you arrested.

However, if you pride yourself on never breaking the law, I hope you only own region 1 DVDs.

[maxgle]

thanks for the responds guys, some of them are great and I deeply appreciate it. However, I AM curious what a cop will say if I tell them about my friend's doing... will they take any action or they will think it is a waste of manpower and just tell me to relax... I think it might be the later... sobbing

[PittsburghAfterDark]

And when Atari or Activision release a collection of dozens of their games for $20, do you bother to purchase it?

You only have to look on my collection signature to know the answer to that is yes, absolutely I do. I don't download emulators, I'm on a Mac, none of them are as comprehensive as the Windows world.

EDIT: Let me clarify what I mant about NES, SMS, Genesis and SNES emulation. They may be available at flea markets, auction, garage sales etc. but they are NOT available NEW. If the original copyright holders are not going to make those games availble on commercially available consoles (GBA, PS2, Xbox, Cube) it's a big grey area I don't see as piracy. They don't make money from used games anyways.

[mousin]

aww tdont gimme this bs, tell me.. everyone in the world has pirated one way or another?

[MasterLin1]

thanks for the responds guys, some of them are great and I deeply appreciate it. However, I AM curious what a cop will say if I tell them about my friend's doing... will they take any action or they will think it is a waste of manpower and just tell me to relax... I think it might be the later... sobbing

well...if you were really a friend, you wouldn't do anything to get him in trouble? And I'll agree with Mousin, I'm sure everyone has pirated something at one point or another. The only reason why I'm arguing is because people seem to think theres a difference between pirating games vs music and movies? Totally wrong.

EDIT: you wouldn't do anything to your friend UNLESS it was somehow damaging to him/herself or others around him/her. Not some big-ass industries who make billions of dollars in profit anyways.

[PittsburghAfterDark]

There are NO gaming companies that make BILLIONS. Not ONE company has profits over $1 billion. Only 3 gaming companies (Not console makers.) have revenue over $1 billion dollars. Gaming is small potatoes in the business world,

[MasterLin1]

You are correct sir, I meant to say industries.

However I disagree when you say gaming is small potatoes in the business world. The gaming industry seems to be always growing. Think about all these movie-game tie-ins? Prime examples? Lord of the Rings, Spiderman, Riddick. Companies know there's money to be made off these licenses, and they're pursuing it. I think gaming is quickly rising to the top as a big money making industry.

[eldad9]

The only reason why I'm arguing is because people seem to think theres a difference between pirating games vs music and movies? Totally wrong.

Again: The music industry is purchasing obscene legislation to try to limit your rights, tries to install software on your computers without your knowledge or agreement, tries to sabotage computers playing audio CDs, limit your exposure to non-RIAA music.... It is not moral to support them by purchasing their products.

[bignick]

I pirate everything except games, cause I dont play them on the computer. Anyone need a copy of Adobe CS pro?

[eldad9]

There are NO gaming companies that make BILLIONS. Not ONE company has profits over $1 billion. Only 3 gaming companies (Not console makers.) have revenue over $1 billion dollars. Gaming is small potatoes in the business world,

So is that the magic number? It's OK to commit infringement when a company has a revenue of $1 billion, but not $900 million?

[nathan_the_rock]

well...if you were really a friend, you wouldn't do anything to get him in trouble?
stop telling yourself this lie.... that is so not true.

[pukemon]

why don't you report their sorry asses?

[whitereflection]

Piracy's the worst of it, but it's not the only thing that affects the industry.

I know I'm gonna get flamed for this, but doesn't being a CAG hurt the industry? If everyone bought a game for $5 instead of $50, obviously, it would have a negative impact on the industry. And while there'll always be those people who'll pay full retail for a game, people are beginning to realize that they don't have to and won't.

On the same note, I find it weird when people say that downloading games are ok if they're out of print. If you're playing a game you downloaded, you're already gonna be occupied, and that'll keep you from buying a game for a while. If you downloaded Zelda: A Link to the Past, you're gonna wait to buy Windwaker, and deliberately or not, you would prolly buy it when the price drops. Imagine what happens if you downloaded every killer SNES game.

Now, admit it. If you didn't download any classic games, you'd prolly want some game that's still on the market today. You could argue that you'd be too broke to buy it, thereby assuring yourself that downloading old games are a-ok, but chances are you'd find a way to get it, by getting a job, stealing it, begging your parents for it, etc. - the company gets their money anyway.

Just my two cents. Please don't flame me - I have a fragile ego. =/

[ElwoodCuse]

However, if you pride yourself on never breaking the law, I hope you only own region 1 DVDs.

Region codes aren't law, they are just industry standards. They can make it inconvenient for you to play games or watch DVDs from another region, but they can't arrest/sue you for it.

[Final Starman]

to solve the problems of your friends lack of morality, i would begin "pirating" items from their home and/or wallets, especially those items you really want. If they never find out, they won't be hurt, and if they do find out, explain to them your reasoning that since you were able to get it for "free" you would have to be stupid to then pay for it.
I mean it would only be really wrong if you pirated stuff from your friends and then sold it, right?

Pirating a game (infringing on copyrights) and stealing, while having nearly the same effect, are not the same thing..

[dtcarson]

I don't think being a CAG hurts the industry. If the consumer demands lower prices, the industry--any industry--will do its best to meet that need. If they can't/don't, the consumer will then either not buy the product, or pay the higher price, and the market will react to that.
There are enough people out there who *have* to buy th e game on release day, or *aren't* willing to wait/hunt for a price drop/deal, to keep the industry in business.
Plus, I know i have bought a few games for 5-20 bucks that I would not have bought at all if they were 40-50. But at the 5-20 price points, it's worth a risk.
If everyone decides that 25 bucks is all they'll pay [which won't happen], then that will tighten the market naturally, and we won't risk another ET/3d0 fiasco. That's somewhat what's happening with Hollywood--they are *starting* to see there is a CAG alternative [DVD's and home theater] to paying 6-12 bucks a ticket, so hopefully we'll start seeing the big producers cut their costs.
Plus, by the time we get the game as a CAG, that price drop is usually at the retailer level, and the game maker has already gotten their money. Except inthe case of a standard MSRP price drop, but those occur all the time in all industries--almost everything, if you wait long enough, will drop in price at the retailer and MSRP.
I'd bet that most CAGs spend more on games overall than 'Joe Consumer.'

[hunter_d]

I've pirated PC games in the past (but never console games, excepting ROMs of older systems), and I'm sure I will again in the future. I still buy new games, hell, I just bought Enter the Matrix the other day (and god I wish I had pirated it. (joke)) . There is something satisfying about owning the box and everything, something I hadn't learned to appreciate until recently. And now that I've joined this site, trading games has become a new reason not to pirate. I don't think my crimes hurt the industry, since I've rarely pirated any newer games, and I average about one game a month. Piracy as a whole? Maybe - I have no frame of reference. But in my opinion, the gaming industry will not be dying any time soon.

I have nothing but respect for people who are against pirating. If you are committed enough to ignore the lures of free stuff, I commend you.

[CarmenJubei]

yes, the cheap assholes who get all their games by downloading from the web are so annoying. it is necessary to kill all the sites which provide free games downloads..it is faster and more effective than asking your friends to stop, in which they will never listen to you :evil:

[CaseyRyback]

Personally I think people who use the justification that ROMs are ok are retarded and worse than the people who commit piracy.

At least pirates admit it

[Alpha2]

When it comes down to it I cant see there being too many people here who;ve never commited an act of piracy, even unintentionally buy taking possession of something given to them for free by a friend or obtained unknowningly.

But anyway piracy is a fact of life the only thing you can do is decide how you personally react to it. If your friends created a musical arrangment or an entire CD of original music just to see it being sold but a bootlegger a week later then maybe they;d reconcider their practices but untill something like that happens they'll never see anything wrong with it and no amount of indignation will change it.

People who make the claim that Roms are okay for some random reason they heard once and think they;re abiding by are doing so because they want there to be a legal loophole for something they feel should rightfully be availible to them in some form. You can tell them they;re wrong but they;ll just look for another way to justify it or agree with you half heartedly and make a mental note not to tell you about the next bit of free swag they happen across.

I've said it before, People want the lowest price on things as far as their morals will allow. Some people's just let them go a lot lower than others.

[eldad9]

However, if you pride yourself on never breaking the law, I hope you only own region 1 DVDs.

Region codes aren't law, they are just industry standards. They can make it inconvenient for you to play games or watch DVDs from another region, but they can't arrest/sue you for it.

Thanks to the wonderful Digital Millennium Copyright Act, circumventing technologies that control access to copyrighted material (such as region coding) is illegal.

[ElwoodCuse]

However, if you pride yourself on never breaking the law, I hope you only own region 1 DVDs.

Region codes aren't law, they are just industry standards. They can make it inconvenient for you to play games or watch DVDs from another region, but they can't arrest/sue you for it.

Thanks to the wonderful Digital Millennium Copyright Act, circumventing technologies that control access to copyrighted material (such as region coding) is illegal.

gg Corporate AmeriKKKa

I guess I'd better throw out all my black sharpies too, they can be used to bypass copyright protection. Oh, and all my computers have shift keys, I'm REALLY boned.

[eldad9]

Owning these is legal; using them in that way isn't.

[JSweeney]

However, if you pride yourself on never breaking the law, I hope you only own region 1 DVDs.

Region codes aren't law, they are just industry standards. They can make it inconvenient for you to play games or watch DVDs from another region, but they can't arrest/sue you for it.

Thanks to the wonderful Digital Millennium Copyright Act, circumventing technologies that control access to copyrighted material (such as region coding) is illegal.

gg Corporate AmeriKKKa

I guess I'd better throw out all my black sharpies too, they can be used to bypass copyright protection. Oh, and all my computers have shift keys, I'm REALLY boned.

While not nazi's being mentioned, I think this statement is close enough to the invocation of Nazi's or Hitler that I could submit a claim that this thread now cease due to something structurally similar to Goodwin's Law of Usenet. (Basically because now that an invocation of the KKK has been made to compare something that has nothing to do with the KKK)

Having reached this threshold, this thread seems to have lost any and/or all value, and futher posts would most likely be fruitless.

[Ebraum]

Is pirating really that big? I would think the pre-owned game market has put a bigger dent in the gaming industry. I know one person that downloads games, but I know a ton of people that buy pre-owned .

[Reality's Fringe]

I like my SNES roms; they hold me over until I can afford to buy the damned game. I've beaten Chrono Trigger on a Rom and gotten all 12 endings, but as soon as I find it for a reasonable price, I'm going to pick it up. I just bought Super Ghouls and Ghosts and Illusion of Gaia at a Dirt Market for about 7 bucks about two days ago, and I already beat them on an Emulator. emulators are absolutely NO substitute for the real thing. I used to think otherwise, but the revelation hit me one day when I was trying to play contra with a PC gamepad:
"Holy shit, this is lame" what did I do? I bought an NES and contra. Now, I do know people who do nothing but Pirate games and I laugh at them.
"Look at this man, I got Far Cry.....yeah, it's the German version so I can't understand it but it's FREE. Don't you get it?!"