Paypal screwed me! UPDATE MARCH.11 2008, A NEW COLLECTION AGENCY IS CALLING!

[magiic]

The Original Post:

I sold a ps3 on ebay. Mailed it off (along side 3 others and a Wii all packaged the same way) it arrived at it's destination "damaged" according to the buyer. The buyer states that the box is damaged and that he wants a full refund of the auction closing price. The package was insured but the seller refuses to take the insurance route. He let slip that he intended to sell this to a friend but now said friend no longer wants it because the box is damaged. He filed a claim with paypal now. I think what's happened here is he was going to sell it but his friend came to his senses because it's so easy to get ps3's in stores now and just bought one at a human being price or decided paying his buddy more than the 1025USD he paid for it was ridiculous. So the claim is currently under review by paypal. Am I screwed or is paypal going to actually see through this guys bullshit and make him claim the insurance if he wants his money back.

Updates...


December.5th 2006
dispute opened with paypal

January.25th 2007
paypal rules against me buyer has to refundJust got the e-mail today AFTER OVER TWO FUCKING MONTHS of waiting. And they decided to rule in favour of the buyer. So I have to refund his money and he will probably send me back either a perfectly fine ps3 or one beaten to shit with a hammer just as him being a jackass. It's been too long for me to get a refund or file for insurance now. This is completely unacceptable on paypals behalf as I have done nothing wrong.

February.3rd
magiic gets mono :(

February.6th
I can't believe it. After all this the guy never sent paypal a tracking number within the ten day limit they set so the case is closed. My account is unlocked for all those funds. I can't believe the bullet I dodged there. w000t

February.13th (I still have mono :()
The playstation 3 just showed up at my door about 10 minutes ago. I refused it though. It was going to cost me $185 to accept the package. And I had no real way of telling if it was actually a ps3.

Note: I had the pleasure of answering the door when the UPS guy came wearing only my boxers and after having not showered in probably a week as I was still mostly bed ridden from mono. Poor UPS guy. Plus I had to decide what the fuck to do with this package while heavily medicated. I just declined because I certainly did not have $180 something cash on me.

February.19th (still sick :()
I just checked my paypal account. Apparently the buyer appealed the case (After it closed because he failed to meet paypals terms). So now as of Valentines Day (Feb.14) the case is back under review. Fortunately my account wasn't refrozen for the $1025USD. I've emptied my account now again though. I had like $300USD in my paypal account I'd rather not lose.


EDIT: I just noticed it said that the SELLER appealed the case. WTF is going on here.

February.20th (still having the mono :()
PayPal has concluded the investigation of your claim.

Transaction Details
------------------------------
Transaction Date: Nov 20, 2006
Transaction Amount: -$1,025.00 USD
Your Transaction ID: *****
Buyer's Transaction ID: ******
Case Number: *****
Buyer's Name: ---
Buyer's Email: -----
------------------------------

The buyer has provided the following valid tracking information to verify
shipment of merchandise to you.

Tracking Number: 1Z W69 9W9 68 4338 184 3
Shipping Company: UPS
Status: Refused

Since the tracking information shows the merchandise was delivered to you,
we request that you send the buyer a full refund for the transaction. It is
against our User Agreement for you to possess both the item and the money;
therefore, we are respectfully requesting that you process this refund
within three days. Failure to do will result in PayPal returning the funds
on your behalf to the buyer.


------------------------

This is unbelievable. They even acknowledge that it has been refused so they know I don't have it. Although they haven't froze my money again. Nor did they reverse my withdrawl of funds. And the case is no longer showing in my resolution centre. But seriously WTF I can't wrap my head around this anymore. Check out the tracking on the package, there is a short novel written about this package. I can't understand half of what it says but it still says it's in the province.

I'm going to give it a day or two to see what happens. Then call paypal.

February.24th (not as sick anymore :))
Ok this is getting ridiculous. Paypal just refunded him all of his money. So my account has a huge negative balance again. I need to call paypal now. Any idea what I should do to outline my case so I get the money back.

February.24th (e-mail to paypal)
Dear Genevieve/Whomever It May Concern,

I am e-mailing in response to the e-mail I received stating that a refund had been issued on my behalf in regards to case number PP-***-***-*** involving myself and a Mr. ******. This refund has been issued in error as the last e-mail I received before the one stating a refund had been issued stated that I was in violation of Paypal's user agreement by being in possession of both the item in question (ONE Playstation 3) and Mr.****'s money at the same time. However according the same e-mail Paypal acknowledged that the package had been refused as per the UPS tracking number (1Z W69 9W9 68 4338 184 3). The status of the package can be checked at http://www.ups.com (http://www.ups.com/) to show that I do not in fact have the item in my possession. The reason I refused the package was that Mr.**** failed to follow Paypal's guidelines for mailing the package back to me. As per Paypal's guidelines he was required to mail the package back in it's original condition and he was to cover all costs in mailing it back. Unfortunately Mr.***** neglected to do this and when the item arrived at my place of residence the UPS Delivery Personnel informed me that there was $187.52CAD COD (Cash on Delivery). As such I refused the package because Mr.**** was required to return the package to me at ZERO expense to myself. He failed to do such and as a result I informed the UPS representative that I wished to "Return To Sender" the package. The tracking number for this package confirms that I refused the package and that it is not in my possession. Currently you have issued a refund to Mr.* on false pretences that I have the item hand, however Mr.***** is currently the one in violation of Paypal's User Agreement as he now has the money in hand and will soon have the item in hand as well. As stated in the last e-mail an individual cannot be in possession of both the item and the money therefore I respectfully request that the refund be reversed and my Paypal account be returned to a balance of $0.00 as it was before the refund was issued.

Thank You,
Respectfully,
Ryan Laker

March.6 (almost my birthday, hooray!)
Forgot to update this for anyone still interested in the status of my (mis)adventure with paypal. I called paypal a few days ago and talked to someone who looked at my stuff and said she had passed it on to the appeals department and someone from there would get back to me. So I am awaiting to here back on that. Im giving them till friday before I call again.

March.9 (my birthday:applause:, happy 17th to me)
I just checked my paypal account and the claim has shown back up and is "Under Review". I was going to call them but it says they need no further info from me and will contact me if they require any so I guess I will leave it for now.

March.13
I just filed a complaint with the BBB. I'm hoping maybe they can speed this up as one poster suggested.

March.15
Well I got an e-mail back from the BBB saying they have contacted Paypal and have given paypal 20 days to provide a written response which they will forward to me. Guess we will see what happens next. I hope this gets sorted out soon. I really don't feel like opening up a third bank account so I can use paypal again.

March.20
So I got an e-mail from paypal yesterday morning requesting I send them proof of the COD charges so I did. I called UPS talked to a UPS representative who faxed me all the invoice stuff from the package. Then I made up a coversheet as per paypals e-mail faxed it to them literally within in hour of them requesting. Last night after work I check my account and the case is gone. They denied my appeal and closed it. I am thinking of calling them and asking WHAT THE fuck IS GOING ON. Still no word from the BBB in regards to my complaint against paypal either.

March.20 (later)
Ugh Paypal just re-opened the case saying they have recieved my documents. I swear to god one hand never knows what the other is doing over there.

March.29
I got Paypals response from the BBB. They basically told me in one page that I am fucked and I can take it up with UPS or eBay. They completely ignored the CoD charge claim and made no mention of the fact that I faxed in the proof of the CoD charges they requested and just said that I refused it because claimed I never ordered (thats what it said on the UPS tracking). I sent a response back to the BBB again about the CoD thing and also how I faxed them the info they requested yet they have still done nothing. I'm waiting for a response from Paypal or the BBB now.

April.4
Got an e-mail from the BBB telling me paypal says Im SOL. So I'm just going to give up on this I think. Paypal isn't getting a dime out of me. Paypal still says my case is being reived though in my account resolution center.

April.11
Well it's over now. Paypal has decided once and for all I lose. Game over. They sent me an e-mail saying Im fucked in a few paragraphs. What irks me though is they completely ignored the stuff I faxed into them. Didnt even mention the failure of the buyer to pay all shipping and handling fees along with marking it as a return. So whatever, the guy got a free PS3 that pisses me off but I didnt lose any money and they won't get a dime out of me. So if they want their money back they can get it from the buyer. Also to anyone wishing to block him his ebay ID is.... acosta2007

April.12
I'm pretty choked. I'm closing my bank account today at lunch.
I also e-mailed them telling them they may aswell close my account because they won't get a dime from me. Doubt they will though. I'll probably start another paypal account but it will be strictly for buying or stuff or selling on CAG. I don't think I will be selling on ebay anymore. Just not worth the risk.

May.16
Just got an e-mail saying it's my last warning before the pursue other collection remedies. I have ten days apparently.

July.12
I got a call from collections today. Well actually it was from a gentleman from Quebec who had business to discuss with me regarding case # something something something. I'm positive it's collections as there is no other reason someone from Quebec would be calling and asking for to discuss "important business". Glad no one answered it, we shall continue to ignore calls from them I think for now. See where it goes.

March.11 2008
I got a call from a new collections agency today. This time they are located in a real province (Ontario). I guess we'll see what comes of it. It was an automated message about "important business matters"

[zionoverfire]

Yes and no.

If he wins the claim he is required to send the item back to you before his money is returned.

My suggestion is to actually call up USPS and file a claim, given the cost of the item they should start harassing him about the condition it was recieved in. Hopefully he'll crack and then you can fax paypal the USPS report.

[magiic]

I've heard all he has to do is send a package with delivery confirmation. Paypal just wants to know it's been delivered he could send a box full of newspaper or popcorn and paypal would still refund his money.

[zionoverfire]

I've heard all he has to do is send a package with delivery confirmation. Paypal just wants to know it's been delivered he could send a box full of newspaper or popcorn and paypal would still refund his money.
Except that the PS3 weights more than that. They'd have to actually put in some old text books or something. But yeah they could try that.

I hope you managed to withdraw all the money from your paypal account.

[DreamSymphony]

If you insured the package, you have to file the claim. I would start the claim process with USPS or whatever carrier you sent by. If the buyer tried to file a claim through paypal and he wins just close out your paypal account and open another one... simple as that.

[wubb]

zion's post is good advice. Definitely contact the USPS straight away and ask what you can do to get an insurance claim rolling.

I've heard all he has to do is send a package with delivery confirmation. Paypal just wants to know it's been delivered he could send a box full of newspaper or popcorn and paypal would still refund his money.

Yes, he could. If he does file mail fraud on his ass. For something this big I'd file the charge in person if at all possible and keep bugging them about it. I'd also contact his local police.

He could also send a package with DC to another address in your zip code. It would show as delivered for PayPal and you'd never even see what he sent. The guy who gets the package (let's assume it's a box made to look like some sort of junk mail) would more than likely just pitch it without a 2nd thought. I had a buyer pull that shit on me once. But maybe for this amount of money PayPal would require he send it signature required? That would hopefully prevent this...

Of course, he could also just jump on the box a few times and then it really would be damaged to send back. (Have the USPS inspect what you get back to see if they can determine how it was damaged. I assume they do that for insured packages?)

But hopefully he won't pull anything like these scenarios.

[magiic]

Ya I have to file the claim but I can't even start filing it without the ps3 as I need to take it to CP or mail it to them. And I have a funny feeling I won't ever actually be seeing this ps3 again.

[shrike4242]

If you sent something that expensive without a signature confirmation, you were making a huge mistake.

Plus, at the insurance value you placed on it, the USPS should have required a signature for it. If you didn't get a signature confirmation, you're not likely to get a copy of the signature.

I think it's iffy on what Paypal would do, though if it's damaged, I'd file the insurance claim, and the first thing the USPS will do is ask for the item back from the receipient, theoretically in the condition he received it in.

[Brian9824]

Yeah like others have said i'd invest in some KY-Jelly. Then i'd contact the UPS and Paypal and inform them both of the situation and start the insurance process NOW. Make sure to give the post office a detailed description and start printing and keeping copies of every letter you send to this person and everything he sends to you.

Then ask for pictures of the box and the damage. Don't act defensive. Check to see what the procedures are for insurance. Don't know how they handle it.

[arfin]

OP, my advice to you is post this on the ebay.com discussion boards, under the paypal forum. There is good help there, and they know what they are talking about (most of them anyways). Goodluck

[magiic]

It's already under paypals review. If I file insurance there is no way he is going to give me the package. So I can't even take that route.

[wubb]

I don't understand what you mean by that. I don't believe PayPal takes insurance into the equation when they rule on a dispute. If they find for the buyer the money will come out of your account once he returns the item and then you are left to recoup your money from the insurance claim.

If filing an insurance claim scares him into not wanting to send it back to you all the better, as PayPal will not grant him a refund until he does. (There are ways around this, but hopefully he isn't foolish enough to cross the lines it would take.)

At least that's my understanding of how they work things.

[magiic]

Fortunaltely I dont think paypal can get money out of me. What happens though if as I suspect this guy just once his money back and there is no damage to the package? Obviously I can't get insurance.

[wubb]

If you get it back and there is no damage, I'd notify PayPal of that fact and then just move on and drop it. I'm not sure if the USPS would consider it mail fraud or the cops would consider it a crime. You got what you sold back, he gets him money back. You might not want to have processed a return, but probably not criminal. Though I'm not sure on it really. Anyone here ever been in this situation?

Of course it would probably not still be sealed so you wouldn't really be whole there. Hmm, kind of a tricky situation. In the end I'm guessing PayPal wouldn't be much help to you.

[Kendro]

Tagged for whenever I get screwed.

[Vinny]

Whenever I get money from PayPal, I always deposit it into my account so no douchebag can get to it.

I've also started higher requirements to bid on my auctions and make my rules ultra clear. It's getting ridiculous how my assholes are on eBay these days.

[magiic]

Whenever I get money from PayPal, I always deposit it into my account so no douchebag can get to it.

I've also started higher requirements to bid on my auctions and make my rules ultra clear. It's getting ridiculous how my assholes are on eBay these days.

That's one of my saving graces I got my money out of my paypal account literally hours before he started the dispute. So in all reality paypal can't get any money out of me. As far as I can tell.

[zionoverfire]

Fortunaltely I dont think paypal can get money out of me. What happens though if as I suspect this guy just once his money back and there is no damage to the package? Obviously I can't get insurance.

Basically if you file an insurance claim the post office should try to get in contact with him to determine the level of damage. If he then tells USPS that the package isn't damaged or admits it wasn't damaged during shipping, they will deny your insurance claim but you should be able to request a copy of the report which you can fax to Paypal to counter his dispute.

[magiic]

So even though the claim is under review by paypal I should still proceed to make the insurance claim?

[himsahealer]

Oh my..........you may be screwed. I sold a Xbox 360 and 11 games for around $600. He called his bank and disputed the charges because he said it was illegal transactions. Paypal screwed me. I had a signature from his residence, and the address was confirmed before I shipped the item, but no one would help me at Paypal. I scanned everything and attached to an email that I sent them, but never heard back. I have sent 3 emails so far. I never recieved my 360 and games back. Paypal is not a very great service overall. No one even investigated my claim. I am now in talks with my attorney.

[Narbotic]

Oh man, at least your in better shape than I am. I met in person with someone to sell a PS3 from a post on craig's list. DUMB. He's reversing the charge but claims it's his card company's automatic fraud protection. I did get my money out of paypal already and am thinking of closing my account as I never want to use them again.
I think you should be ok though, it sounds as if you followed the "seller protection" guidelines, no?

[magiic]

I have no idea. I probably haven't with my luck. I didn't get sig confirmation so that probably fucks me right there I have delivery confirmation but thats it. I'm not sure I totally care I have all the money out of my paypal account. I'll probably just close it and say to hell with it.

[wubb]

Sig confirmation is required for anything over $250 I think. Over $1k is definitely above the threshold.

But since he isn't claiming item not received but rather SNAD I don't think that matters here.

[magiic]

Good point.

[Bezerker]

Sorry to thread hijack but i thought it'd be easier than creating my own thread. Just had a buyer that has 0 feedback. He paid instantly through paypal. His address is Confirmed, however it shows that the "sender of the payment is Unverified".

I couldnt remember whether it mattered more that his address is confirmed or whether the buyer is verified or not. I'm hoping that nothing bad comes of this (ill be emptying the acct of course). But as long as i send with delivery confirmation, i should be alright assuming anything happens, right?

[Roufuss]

Sorry to thread hijack but i thought it'd be easier than creating my own thread. Just had a buyer that has 0 feedback. He paid instantly through paypal. His address is Confirmed, however it shows that the "sender of the payment is Unverified".

I couldnt remember whether it mattered more that his address is confirmed or whether the buyer is verified or not. I'm hoping that nothing bad comes of this (ill be emptying the acct of course). But as long as i send with delivery confirmation, i should be alright assuming anything happens, right?

Just his address needs to be confirmed, that's all.

[himsahealer]

I have no idea. I probably haven't with my luck. I didn't get sig confirmation so that probably fucks me right there I have delivery confirmation but thats it. I'm not sure I totally care I have all the money out of my paypal account. I'll probably just close it and say to hell with it.

They will send the negative amount to a collection agency if you close your account.

[magiic]

I can't see it being worth paypal's money to try and collect. It would probably cost them more to get the money back than they would get back. And the money wouldn't even be there's technically they'd be getting it back to give to someone else. And paypal doesnt actually care about the people that use it so why would they care about this.

[crowbb]

If you end up filing an insurance claim with the USPS and he has to send it back, make sure he sends you the original box you mailed it in too. Often the USPS will ask for that to prove the item was damaged in transit and not beforehand.

[wbc1228]

I can't see it being worth paypal's money to try and collect. It would probably cost them more to get the money back than they would get back. And the money wouldn't even be there's technically they'd be getting it back to give to someone else.

$1025 isn't worth collecting?!
You got to be kidding me.
These collection agencies will go for any amount.


And paypal doesnt actually care about the people that use it

correct
they don't care about the buyers.
BUT
that also means they don't care about sellers like you either.


why would they care about this.

Because Palpal cares about money (shocking, isn't it?).
If this guy dispute the charge with his bank / credit card and win (which is probable).
The charge will be reversed and Paypal will be short.
Is Paypal going to take a lost just like that?
Hell no.
Guess who is Paypal going to go after now to recover the money?
YOU.
Believe what you like.
BUT 99.999% of companies out there isn't going to let a huge transaction slide by just like that.

PS:
I'm not saying you will definitely get screwed in this case.
I'm just stating the worst case senario.

[Roufuss]

Oh my..........you may be screwed. I sold a Xbox 360 and 11 games for around $600. He called his bank and disputed the charges because he said it was illegal transactions. Paypal screwed me. I had a signature from his residence, and the address was confirmed before I shipped the item, but no one would help me at Paypal. I scanned everything and attached to an email that I sent them, but never heard back. I have sent 3 emails so far. I never recieved my 360 and games back. Paypal is not a very great service overall. No one even investigated my claim. I am now in talks with my attorney.

Hey, make a new thread on this or something, because I would LOVE to hear how this turns out, and I won't ever remember to check this thread again.

Seriously, it's always pissed me off they can just dispute through the bank and win and Paypal screws YOU even though this guy has all of your stuff.

[wubb]

I can't see it being worth paypal's money to try and collect. It would probably cost them more to get the money back than they would get back. And the money wouldn't even be there's technically they'd be getting it back to give to someone else. And paypal doesnt actually care about the people that use it so why would they care about this.

If he just does a PayPal chargeback than I would agree that they are unlikely to take it to a collection agency. (Think about it, PayPal isn't out any money as they don't hand any back to the buyer that they can't collect.)

But if he goes to his CC once PayPal can't get any funds for him, then PayPal actually is out that $1k+ and I could see them going to a collection agency. Basically what wbc said.

At this point it hasn't even worked through the PP dispute so no need to panic yet. And bottom line if you don't get the PS3 back don't refund him a penny and if PayPal sicks a collection agency on you fight their ass tooth and nail. Could get ugly, though.

[Roufuss]

If he just does a PayPal chargeback than I would agree that they are unlikely to take it to a collection agency. (Think about it, PayPal isn't out any money as they don't hand any back to the buyer that they can't collect.)


Actually, I'm fairly certain Paypal DOES send it to a collection agency if a negative balance has sat in your account for two or three months.

Paypal isn't out any money but someone else is and they are going to collect somehow.

There is no way to screw Paypal... I wouldn't fuck with them.

[magiic]

I dont understand why paypal can't make him just take the insurance option. This is total bullshit. I'm like 99% positive there is no damage to the bloody thing. I have pictures of it before I mailed it with no damage. I sold 3 other PS3's and a Wii with no problems so it's not faulty packaging which was one of the things he outlined. This jackass just tried to buy it off ebay and resell it to his buddy for a quick buck and his friend sounds like he decided he didnt want it (my guess is because he can get it from a store now or at human prices) so this guy wants his money back. The whole thing is absolutely fucking rubbish.



I'm grumpy because despite this guy having really no good case I know I will lose just because paypal cares fuck all about sellers.

[un_plug]

If you have the e-mail where he mentions that he wanted to sell it to a friend I would send that to Paypal. Actually I would send all your correspondence with the dispute.
It seems since he recieved the package, you have conifrmation, and he has admitted to receiving, Paypal will not refund his money. They would leave it strictly to the mail insurance to take care of.
Hoprefully in the end, he is the sh@!t out of luck.

[magiic]

I believe he mentioned the selling it in the dispute itself

[Nomar1245]

Unfortunately this same thing happened to me. I sold a computer game on ebay and when the guy got it he said it didnt work. Well there is no way for me to confirm the software was removed(or not copied) before demanding his money back.

Seeing as a regular retailer doesn't accept software to be returned I didn't see why I should have to. Well this guy reported me to Paypal. So all my money in the account was frozen. I had over $750 that Paypal decided to refund to all of my customers because of this guy.

So essentially I got screwed 3 ways to the wind.

[Brian9824]

Word of advice. If paypal refuses to help you file a report thru the better business beauru. Its free but theres no guarantee of them helping you. I've used it once though and i've never seen paypal bend over backwards so fast to help me out.

They offered to refund my money out of their pocket as a one time exception so i guess I must have worded something right.

[naes]

Yes, anally at that.

[magiic]

Just got the e-mail today AFTER OVER TWO FUCKING MONTHS of waiting. And they decided to rule in favour of the buyer. So I have to refund his money and he will probably send me back either a perfectly fine ps3 or one beaten to shit with a hammer just as him being a jackass. It's been too long for me to get a refund or file for insurance now. This is completely unacceptable on paypals behalf as I have done nothing wrong.

[Negative]

Crap, sorry to hear. How much do you have to refund?

[magiic]

Crap, sorry to hear. How much do you have to refund?
$1025USD + The cost of him shipping it back to me.

[zionoverfire]

$1025USD + The cost of him shipping it back to me.

Well do you even have that in your paypal account?

[magiic]

no my account balance is like negative over $1000

[YoshiFan1]

You could just stop using that Paypal account and if possible delete all your bank account information from it. The only problem with that is I have heard if you do that, Paypal might turn it over to collections.

[zionoverfire]

no my account balance is like negative over $1000

So they already took the money out? That's pretty fucked up.

[YoshiFan1]

^ If your Paypal account has no balance, a chargeback or lost dispute like this will bring your account balance to a negative number. That does not mean they took the money out yet but to get rid of the negative balance, you have to pay the amount and all money incoming into the Paypal account will go towards the balance.

[dracula]

or just close the bank account entirely and open an account with a different bank. And yes, definitely like a complaint with the better business bureau and you might as well fill these links out as well:

https://www.usps.com/postalinspectors/fraud/MailFraudComplaint.htm


you may have to copy and paste this.

https://rn.ftc.gov/pls/dod/wsolcq$.startup?Z_ORG_CODE=

that second one is for consumers, but they may help you because in a way you are of a consumer of paypal.

[MightySlacker]

It's been too long for me to get a refund or file for insurance now.

Uh, I really dont think thats true. Theres no reason you cant file an insurance claim

Dave

[magiic]

First off the package was sent via CP as I live in Canada. CP has a limit on how long you have to file an insurance claim. I am considering just closing my account. Im not even sure they can take me to collections. But either way I've emptied my account and I might just open a new one.

[Warner1281]

Just close the account and open a new one. Even if they send you to collections, just trash the collections notice. They have no way of enforcing any type of collections without your social security number. And since we never provide our SS# to paypal or the collection agency, you won't have anything bad show up on your credit report/history. Sucks that the system can be manipulated like that, but at least in a situation like this, it works out for you.

[dracula]

First off the package was sent via CP as I live in Canada. CP has a limit on how long you have to file an insurance claim. I am considering just closing my account. Im not even sure they can take me to collections. But either way I've emptied my account and I might just open a new one.

you can still try filing an insurance claim. At least look into it. The squeeky wheel gets the kick, or whatever. If i were you i would raise holy hell at your canada post office until they took your insurance claim. But that is just me. Dont vent here, vent at the insurance claims person you have to deal with on the phone.

[io]

Man, that sucks big time. I'm glad my PS3 sale is now past any point of chargebacks and the like.

I did have a buyer file a dispute on a game I sent to Spain. Said he never got it. Since it wasn't too expensive I didn't insist on shipping with insurance or tracking (just airmail letter post). But all the people who are saying "send pictures", "send emails", or whatever to PayPal I have found out that they don't give a rats ass about any of that. Since I had no tracking that was end of story as far as they were concerned.

But here's the kicker - in his PAYMENT to me (and thus documented on PayPal's site) he said the following: "Hi, please be careful with the parcel cause sometime I had problems with any package and it took long time to arrive or it didn't arrive. I hope it hasn't any problem. So, please warn me when you has sent it. Thanks in advance.". I offered in the dispute to spilt the cost with him. He didn't respond to that at all and PayPal did not take up the offer either - I would think with that admission on his part I'd have some grounds. But, like I said, they don't give a rat's ass.

To top it all off, when they refund the guys money, they didn't even give back the PayPal fees for the original payment. OP, did they do this to you as well? They would be pretty substantial on that PS3 purchase.

So, I was out the original game (not to mention it's higher current value), international shipping, my ebay fees, and my PayPal fees. I contacted ebay about it to see if, as a seller in good standing I could at least get my auction fees reimbursed (even though it was after the 2 month claim period). They said they couldn't do anything about the final value fee, but did refund my listing fees - big whoop, those were all of 20 cents :roll:.

I thought I was clear of the feedback period, but apparently it is 3 months (so OP, nail the guy with a negative if you haven't already). But get this, the buyer, who ignored my offers of splitting the cost, left me POSITIVE feedback and has been pestering me daily since then to reciprocate!!! WTF? This guy is going to annoy me into negging him! I have no idea what he is thinking.

[YoshiFan1]

It's longer than 3 months, there is a way to search by item # and leave feedback that way (not sure of the specifics)

[magiic]

I'll look into filing insurance however I will actually have to get the ps3 back in order to file it. Unfortunately at this point paypal wants proof of shipping. So all he has to do is send me back an empty box and he gets to keep the ps3. If I get the ps3 I can try insurance otherwise Im SOL

[magiic]

I can't believe it. After all this the guy never sent paypal a tracking number within the ten day limit they set so the case is closed. My account is unlocked for all those funds. I can't believe the bullet I dodged there. w000t

[Brian9824]

haha sounds like the guy was trying to scam and realized that he could get in serious trouble.

[angrysalad187]

ccongrats on dodging that bullet =)

[cribbs542]

wow, that is awesome man. congrats on lucking out.

[the3rdkey]

thank god dude.

you: 1

him: -1

[wbc1228]

haha sounds like the guy was trying to scam and realized that he could get in serious trouble.

I think the scammer got greedy and was trying to keep both the PS3 and the money. He figured that the money was already in his paypal account and that the case has already been finalized (even though one small step was still needed, the delivery confirmation # for shipping the PS3 back to magiic).

Congratulation, magiic!!

[schuerm26]

I think the 2 month wait or whatever really really worked to your advantage in this case. Though how the hell does something take 2 months to decide.

[daroga]

What would be really funny is if the PS3 showed up shipped back to you in the end. ;)

[zerowing]

Wow, congrats, I've been watching this thread with interest, glad it worked in your favor.

Have a nice day.

[cheapfrag]

Congrats! You did dodge that bullet.

Just wondering why when a lot of folks suggested you file an insurance claim right away, you chose to ignore that advice? Why ask for advice if you're not going to use it?

Also, follow the paypal "seller protection" requirements (not that it would help in this case) and get a signature confirmation for items > $250.

With the USPS, the mailer can file a claim for insurance and the post office notifies the recipient to take the package to the nearest post office. That may scare scammers into not following through with the dispute.

I thought the buyer would be responsible for paying for the mailing back to the seller - your post seemed to indicate that paypal charged you for return shipping.

[magiic]

Congrats! You did dodge that bullet.

Just wondering why when a lot of folks suggested you file an insurance claim right away, you chose to ignore that advice? Why ask for advice if you're not going to use it?



I'm not sure if it's different for USPS but with Canada Post sender needs to file insurance claim and the reciever needs to cooperate in the claim (ie mailing Canada Post the ps3 etc) this guy was easily the most uncooperatve person I have ever met.

[magiic]

The playstation 3 just showed up at my door about 10 minutes ago. I refused it though. It was going to cost me $185 to accept the package. And I had no real way of telling if it was actually a ps3.

[cheapfrag]

So the story continues... keep us updated!

[nativetongue88]

That's one of my saving graces I got my money out of my paypal account literally hours before he started the dispute. So in all reality paypal can't get any money out of me. As far as I can tell.

as long as the money is out of your account you should be good to go. ive had this happen with a purchase of 1300 that i actually never received. i got a message from paypal saying they couldnt refund the money even though i won the claim because the money was taken out of the sellers account. thank god i was able to get my refund through my credit card company.

at the end of the day, paypal probably wont do anything other than next to nothing.

[magiic]

He's going to be real pleased now. He'll get it back in a week or so and have to pay the $185 + the cost to ship it back. Part of me wishes I had of kept it. $185 for a ps3 would of been pretty cool. Although there was no gurantee it was even a ps3. Although keeping it if it was a ps3 could of given him more of a legal leg to stand on.

[magiic]

I just checked my paypal account. Apparently the buyer appealed the case (After it closed because he failed to meet paypals terms). So now as of Valentines Day (Feb.14) the case is back under review. Fortunately my account wasn't refrozen for the $1025USD. I've emptied my account now again though. I had like $300USD in my paypal account I'd rather not lose.


EDIT: I just noticed it said that the SELLER appealed the case. WTF is going on here.

[the_deej]

mail him a pipe bomb to end this once and for all...

In all seriousness, sorry you have to put up with all of this guys crap.

[magiic]

Ya this is getting unbelievable. Just when I think Im in the clear more shit surfaces.

[io]

I just checked my paypal account. Apparently the buyer appealed the case (After it closed because he failed to meet paypals terms). So now as of Valentines Day (Feb.14) the case is back under review. Fortunately my account wasn't refrozen for the $1025USD. I've emptied my account now again though. I had like $300USD in my paypal account I'd rather not lose.


EDIT: I just noticed it said that the SELLER appealed the case. WTF is going on here.

I was going to say, they ruled in his favor originally, so I don't see how he could appeal. I recently lost a PayPal dispute (stupid International buyer claiming he didn't get his package) and I was offered the chance to "appeal" but I figured it wouldn't do me any good as they ignored all my evidence the first time and said all that mattered was tracking info, which of course you don't get with fucking airmail letter post. Those PayPal fuckers... They really don't like sellers - I'm always surprised when I see buyers complaining that PayPal screws them. All they have to do is make some half-assed claim (lost if no tracking, damaged if no insurance, whatever) and PayPal jumps through hoops to refund them. After about 4 emails to them they FINALLY, as a courtesy, refunded the PayPal fees (all of $1.74) on my refunded item. For whatever reason, they kept them originally when they refunded him.

Anyway, another question I had was what the hell kind of shipping did he use where you had to pay $185?? WTF?? When I mailed my one and only PS3 I sent it via priority mail with about $1200 of insurance for $50. It would be hard to spend $185 on shipping if you really tried :lol:.

But I feel for you. I was so pissed about my $37 dispute. I couldn't imagine how I'd feel over this sort of thing. It would have been very difficult to decide what to do with the package showing up like that. Of course, them asking $185 from you probably helped make that decision (as opposed to if he paid it and it just got delivered). That was probably a mistake on his part - he should have shipped it cheaply but with DC and not given you the option to refuse it.

[Warner1281]

Just to play it safe, I'd empty your Paypal account (which it looks liek you already did) and then just stop using it and open a different one instead. That way win, lose, or draw, you still keep the money and you may or may not have a PS3 to keep as well (personally I woulda kept the PS3 that he mailed for $185).

[magiic]

My saving grace now is that I refused the package. So if paypal is reinvestigating this and they check the tracking it will show that I refused it and dont have the package. Furthermore in my defense paypal clearly outlined that he had to pay ALL associated costs with sending it back. The fact that I was expected to pay $187.52CAD upon recieving package is bullshit. And at the time I didnt realize the claim had been re-opened so I didnt want to accept the package because as far as I knew it could of been a box full of stones. And I can get stones way cheaper than $187.52 :P

[magiic]

PayPal has concluded the investigation of your claim.

Transaction Details
------------------------------
Transaction Date: Nov 20, 2006
Transaction Amount: -$1,025.00 USD
Your Transaction ID: *****
Buyer's Transaction ID: ******
Case Number: *****
Buyer's Name: ---
Buyer's Email: -----
------------------------------

The buyer has provided the following valid tracking information to verify
shipment of merchandise to you.

Tracking Number: 1Z W69 9W9 68 4338 184 3
Shipping Company: UPS
Status: Refused

Since the tracking information shows the merchandise was delivered to you,
we request that you send the buyer a full refund for the transaction. It is
against our User Agreement for you to possess both the item and the money;
therefore, we are respectfully requesting that you process this refund
within three days. Failure to do will result in PayPal returning the funds
on your behalf to the buyer.


------------------------

This is unbelievable. They even acknowledge that it has been refused so they know I don't have it. Although they haven't froze my money again. Nor did they reverse my withdrawl of funds. And the case is no longer showing in my resolution centre. But seriously WTF I can't wrap my head around this anymore. Check out the tracking on the package, there is a short novel written about this package. I can't understand half of what it says but it still says it's in the province.

I'm going to give it a day or two to see what happens. Then call paypal.

[Caliburn]

That looks more like an automatically-generated response than a personalized reply... the system looks like it received the tracking number and thinks that the claim should be valid.

A call could clear things up.

[naes]

This statement was serious.
Yes, anally at that.

[magiic]

I'm going to call them first thing in the morning.

[raregamergirl]

With the tracking, if you refuse the package they will automatically side in favor of the buyer. It doesnt matter if you decline it and dont have it. IF you decide to refuse the package and the buyer provides tracking, they WILL automatically side with the buyer.

Now, the thing is that under paypal terms, they can do nothing to get the money back from you. They can close your account but as the buyer waited until after the deadline to supply tracking (IE, he appealed it), he is kind of screwed. This means you most likely will not be out any money.

Very odd situation. Also surprised no-one has jumped on you about selling all those systems yet.

[magiic]

I refused the package because it had almost $200 cash on delivery. Paypal specifically stated that he had to pay for ALL of the associated return expenses. He failed to do so. I am going to make that very clear to them when I call.

[naes]

I hope PayPal sees it your way. Any sensible person should.
I refused the package because it had almost $200 cash on delivery. Paypal specifically stated that he had to pay for ALL of the associated return expenses. He failed to do so. I am going to make that very clear to them when I call.

[magiic]

Paypal is anything but sensible.

[magiic]

Ok this is getting ridiculous. Paypal just refunded him all of his money. So my account has a huge negative balance again. I need to call paypal now. Any idea what I should do to outline my case so I get the money back.

[naes]

Demand that someone looks and sees that the package was declined because he did not cover full shipping charges, as he was supposed to. Threaten that if PayPal doesn't give you the money back and handle this in an appropriate manner that you can and will sue their ass.
Ok this is getting ridiculous. Paypal just refunded him all of his money. So my account has a huge negative balance again. I need to call paypal now. Any idea what I should do to outline my case so I get the money back.

[magiic]

Ya I'm definately making sure they see that I refused it and that I dont have the package. And now he is in violation of their terms because he has the money and will soon have the ps3 also.

[coolsteel]

You keep dodging it but paypal is aiming right for the poopshoot

[magiic]

I know and it's getting stupid. I'm tired of this bullshit.

[magiic]

Dear Genevieve/Whomever It May Concern,

I am e-mailing in response to the e-mail I received stating that a refund had been issued on my behalf in regards to case number PP-***-***-*** involving myself and a Mr. ******. This refund has been issued in error as the last e-mail I received before the one stating a refund had been issued stated that I was in violation of Paypal's user agreement by being in possession of both the item in question (ONE Playstation 3) and Mr.****'s money at the same time. However according the same e-mail Paypal acknowledged that the package had been refused as per the UPS tracking number (1Z W69 9W9 68 4338 184 3). The status of the package can be checked at http://www.ups.com (http://www.ups.com/) to show that I do not in fact have the item in my possession. The reason I refused the package was that Mr.**** failed to follow Paypal's guidelines for mailing the package back to me. As per Paypal's guidelines he was required to mail the package back in it's original condition and he was to cover all costs in mailing it back. Unfortunately Mr.***** neglected to do this and when the item arrived at my place of residence the UPS Delivery Personnel informed me that there was $187.52CAD COD (Cash on Delivery). As such I refused the package because Mr.**** was required to return the package to me at ZERO expense to myself. He failed to do such and as a result I informed the UPS representative that I wished to "Return To Sender" the package. The tracking number for this package confirms that I refused the package and that it is not in my possession. Currently you have issued a refund to Mr.* on false pretences that I have the item hand, however Mr.***** is currently the one in violation of Paypal's User Agreement as he now has the money in hand and will soon have the item in hand as well. As stated in the last e-mail an individual cannot be in possession of both the item and the money therefore I respectfully request that the refund be reversed and my Paypal account be returned to a balance of $0.00 as it was before the refund was issued.

Thank You,
Respectfully,
Ryan Laker

-----------------------------------------------------------

There is the e-mail I sent paypal

[naes]

I would also call.

[Litherish]

What was his feedback rating?

[magiic]

his feedback was 13 and 100% positive.

[magiic]

I'm going to see how they respond to the e-mail and call if the e-mail doesnt get shit rolling.

[Brian9824]

As a last ditch effort file a report thru the Better Business Beauru. Basically no guarantee they will do anything but i filed a report on paypal once thru them and paypal offered to refund me the money out of pocket the next day. I must have made a convincing case.

[magiic]

I'll definately look into that. Thanks :)

[Litherish]

his feedback was 13 and 100% positive.
From?
Buyer-
Seller-
Most likely if he had no previous buyer feedback I'd not buy from him.

[magiic]

Most of his feedback was from buyers. He's sold more than he's bought.

[Narbotic]

Seriously, I feel for you.
Paypal is still sending me reminder emails from 2 month old chargeback for a ps3 sale. I'm tired of calling and emailing, it pisses me off too much way too much now to continue doing. I even have the store receipt with the ps3 serial and I just don't give a shit enough to use it to try to find the guy.
I can't imagine how far beyond sick of paypal you must be.

As someone said earlier, at least they don't have our SS#'s :roll:

[Thongsy]

Wow, I remember reading this way back when, I thought this case had been resolved. Luckily I don't really use ebay or paypal anymore. This was always my biggest concern when selling on ebay, that somebody would do a chargeback or file a dispute to get their way.

[iazybandit]

I wouldnt waste my time emailing. WHile you're waiting for a response, the buyer could of taken the money out and be enjoying the PS3 right now.

[magiic]

He paid credit card the refund would be issued back to his credit card. For all intents and purposes he already had the money the moment the issued the refund. Now he just has to wait for the ps3 and he's set.

[starmask2k3]

do u have a link

[magiic]

A link to what?

[magiic]

Forgot to update this for anyone still interested in the status of my (mis)adventure with paypal. I called paypal a few days ago and talked to someone who looked at my stuff and said she had passed it on to the appeals department and someone from there would get back to me. So I am awaiting to here back on that. Im giving them till friday before I call again.

[starmask2k3]

A link to what?

ebay auction link

[magiic]

It's long gone, this auction closed almost 4 months ago now.

[eebuckeye]

Very interested.. please keep up informed

[magiic]

I still havent heard from them . I'm giving them one more day to contact me before I call them again. I wish they could be a little more expedient with getting back to me. I just can't believe how long this has gone on for. It's pretty ridiculous that this has been going for almost four months I think.

[magiic]

I just checked my paypal account and the claim has shown back up and is "Under Review". I was going to call them but it says they need no further info from me and will contact me if they require any so I guess I will leave it for now.

[io]

I just checked my paypal account and the claim has shown back up and is "Under Review". I was going to call them but it says they need no further info from me and will contact me if they require any so I guess I will leave it for now.

You may want to contact them anyway, because I had the same thing for my review (for a MUCH smaller amount) and I waited and waited for them to contact me and ask about my receipts, packaging, whatever. They never did and a month and a half later sided with the buyer because my tracking was not valid (I had put in the customs form number since that was all I had - apparently for Canadian mailings it can be used, but not for other countries). But instead of contacting me "if they need further info" they just did nothing for a long time, probably looked at it for 1 minute, and sided with the buyer.

If I were you I'd make sure they know about the lack of postage on his return and the fact that you no longer have it. I'm sure you've done that already - but I'd do it again.

[magiic]

Alright, good plan. I'll call them after work.

[magiic]

I tried calling them but gave up after being hold for an hour. I'll try again tommorow.

[magiic]

I got two e-mails today from paypal one from "complaint-response" and "chargeback-response" about them recieving my complaint and how they will contact me if they require info and that it takes upto 30 days for my complaint to be reviewed.

[MrNEWZ]

Good luck with the case man, some insane stuff.

IIRC, when mailing TO Canada, if you mark what the item is or give it value, then the person ACCEPTING the item in Canada must pay tax on it. My friend purchased an NES on Ebay for $10--- the person sent with insurance valuing it at $250 and in order to claim the package, my friend had to PAY the % on the value of the item. That sounds very similar to what happened here with you, correct?

Anyways, good luck. It my be time to just open a new paypal account with a different address rather than deal with this garbage anymore.

[magiic]

Good luck with the case man, some insane stuff.

IIRC, when mailing TO Canada, if you mark what the item is or give it value, then the person ACCEPTING the item in Canada must pay tax on it. My friend purchased an NES on Ebay for $10--- the person sent with insurance valuing it at $250 and in order to claim the package, my friend had to PAY the % on the value of the item. That sounds very similar to what happened here with you, correct?

Anyways, good luck. It my be time to just open a new paypal account with a different address rather than deal with this garbage anymore.

Ya I know, it had a customs fee on it. I wasn't paying to bring the item back into my own country as I already sent it out. It was his job to pay for that too when he mailed it. I'm sure you can pre-pay the customs fee. But I sure as hell wasn't paying to bring it back into Canada after I mailed it out once already.

[tbolt30]

This is why when I sell something major like a video game system that costs a lot I say this in fine print. "This system is 100% "SOLD AS IS" although is it working 100% or either 100% sealed"

[magiic]

This is why when I sell something major like a video game system that costs a lot I say this in fine print. "This system is 100% "SOLD AS IS" although is it working 100% or either 100% sealed"
Just for future reference. That means nothing to paypal. If you ever get into a dispute, that holds absolutely no water at all. I had a ZERO return policy just like that.

[tbolt30]

Just for future reference. That means nothing to paypal. If you ever get into a dispute, that holds absolutely no water at all. I had a ZERO return policy just like that.

So your going to get scewed over even though the guy said he got the system and didn't want it because he couldn't sell it to his friend?

[magiic]

So your going to get scewed over even though the guy said he got the system and didn't want it because he couldn't sell it to his friend?

So far it looks that way. Unless after four months of this bullshit paypal finally sees the light.

[magiic]

I just filed a complaint with the BBB. I'm hoping maybe they can speed this up as one poster suggested.

[PaulG]

My two cents: You really should have called PayPal and started screaming as soon as you refused delivery and then got the e-mail stating he was in compliance (which you stated he violated by COD, and I'm assuming you're correct.)

You said you had insurance and signature confirmation. So obviously the buyer should have filed the claim through the post office. Obviously the only reason for a seller NOT to do so is because he's up to funny business.

My plan of action had a buyer tried scamming me, and this is complicated by the fact he actually supposedly sent it back (which you refused) was this: If he tried keeping it AND getting a chargeback, I was gonna go after him.

I was going to threaten to file a claim with:

http://www.ic3.gov/

And file a fraud/theft complaint with their local police department if they didn't drop the case/go through proper insurance claims. And then file these complaints if they didnt'. I also saved the original receipt and serial number for these reasons.

Speaking of serial numbers, you might wanna contact Sony and report your serial number as stolen. Maybe he'll at least be locked out of Home when it goes online.

Or if Canada has small claims courts, you sue PayPal there.

http://paypalsucks.com/SuePayPal-1.shtml

The following link details a buyer's lawsuit, but I got that link from a seller's thread. The seller had success doing this.

[magiic]

Small claims court, that could be fun. I wonder how interested they would be in sending lawyers up to Victoria. That's a good 2 1/2 hour plane ride, plus ferry or helijet, plus driving plus accomadations. I think the main reason I didnt go apeshit on them when I should of is because I just couldn't see them being that stupid. The case was so clear cut for me I couldn't imagine how I could lose. Anyways about contact the police in his area. What's my best way to go about doing that, what do I tell them when I call? What info are they going to want etc.

[raregamergirl]

I just checked with my paypal representative. I found out that

a) when you refused the package, you were automatically screwed (I know I already stated this but I am reiterating the fact). in all those things you agree to, this is in there. if a dispute is filed against you and the buyer wins the dispute, if you (the seller) refuse the package and the buyer can show proof of this in any way, you are out the money and the item. the buyer attempted delivery and you chose to not accept it. it was your choice to choose to NOT accept the item.

b) the buyer is NOT responsible for ANY customs fees associated with the item. if there are customs fees involved in returning the item, it is the sellers job to pay these. these are based upon your own countries regulations and laws. it is NOT the buyers job to pay for fees your country may be charging you. they ARE, however, responsible for all SHIPPING fees in returning the item to you. if the buyer did not pay for ALL SHIPPING fees, then you have some ground to stand on. I am assuming, though, that all these fees you were supposed to pay were for customs fees. As stated, you are responsible for all customs fees or other taxes your country may be charging YOU to recieve the item.

HOWEVER- if the item was a return and you can prove it, you will generally NOT be responsible for any customs fees as the item was a return. you can prove this via any of the emails from paypal, I assume.

c) I would contact the buyer. explain to them the entire issue and explain to them that you will even pay for the return shipping. since they already did pay the return shipping once and they have (in their eyes) no reason to return it to you, try to reason with them.

You have no legal bearing though at all. You would lose in small claims court. Why? All those agreements you signed into when signing up for your paypal account. It also sounds as if he did attempt to return the item to you. YOU chose to not accept it.

I dont think paypal will be helping you at all in this instance. Your best bet is to try to work with the buyer to get them to return the item again. Be reasonable with them, though, and try not to lash out at them. You have every reason to be upset. Yes, paypal sucks in instances such as these- BUT there is nothing you can really do about it. Its part of the risk in accepting paypal.

[magiic]

Shouldn't it be his responsibility to mark the thing as a return? Either way I still dont understand how after he failed to provide tracking in the allotted time paypal still re-opened the case for him. They deleted the claim and I could even use my account for a week or so.

[raregamergirl]

You are right he should have marked it as returned merchandise, but technically he didnt have to. He was a total ass for not marking it as returned merchandise (big surprise, though. sounds like the buyer is a total ass to begin with).

As for opening it after it was closed, you are given a window to appeal a paypal decision. Depending on the case and the money involved, they will open the appeal and review it basically immediately.

Generally, though, for lower dollar items, an appeal is just between the buyer and seller and is meant to be used as a communication tool and paypal does not get involved. There is a dollar amount, though, where paypal does get involved with appeals (I am not sure of this amount, perhaps $250 or so).

[naes]

Raregamergirl, I believe you are wrong.

Magiic, I'm sure you have a customs thing somewhere. There is a shipping and handling fee, which PayPal said he MUST cover all. Obviously, he did NOT cover the shipping and handling fee that the CPO charges. I doubt he'd have to pay the customs, but it is written on the customs form that there IS A CHARGE FOR SHIPPING/HANDLING.

[raregamergirl]

What am I wrong about? I'm confused.... please explain? I spoke to my paypal representative (I sell a LOT of items) and they explained to me the issues and rules involved. I am always interested in rules and regulations etc so I was curious about the issue.

[naes]

Your point B.

There IS a shipping/handling fee that's charged by the CPO. And THEN there's an import tax for customs.
What am I wrong about? I'm confused.... please explain? I spoke to my paypal representative (I sell a LOT of items) and they explained to me the issues and rules involved. I am always interested in rules and regulations etc so I was curious about the issue.

[raregamergirl]

From what I gathered, though (and this may be wrong), the buyer did pay for the USPS mailing charge when he sent the item. I am not sure if this is true, but this is what I was assuming as it was not mentioned otherwise. I was under the impression that the money he was being charged for was the customs (which makes sense if the buyer put down the full value).
EDIT: Also, paypal would have required tracking to be provided to side with the buyer. I'm not sure how the buyer could have mailed the item back with a trackable method (when shipping via USPS outside the US, only global express included online tracking) without paying the shipping fee up front.

[naes]

Maybe if Magiic could reply...

Magiic, did you see the custom label thing? I know they have a box and they check it and put how much the shipping/handling is, then they have boxes for import and custom fees.

[magiic]

Regardless what happens paypal is not getting a dime from me. The way this has been handled is completely unacceptable. Even if I had accepted the package when it came I would of still be outside the return window because paypal took so fucking long to come to a decision.


@naes

I was sick with mono when the package came, And answered the door wearing just my boxers the guy told me I had to pay like 187.52 Cash on Delivery and I told him I never looked at the box. Nor was in a position to look at the box I just kind of peeked around the door at him.

[magiic]

Well I got an e-mail back from the BBB saying they have contacted Paypal and have given paypal 20 days to provide a written response which they will forward to me. Guess we will see what happens next. I hope this gets sorted out soon. I really don't feel like opening up a third bank account so I can use paypal again.

[Narbotic]

I'm very interested in what the BBB can get done in your situation. I don't completely understand the power they wield over empires like paypal/ebay but I imagine they can shut them down/cripple them if enough legit complaints arise.

On a selfish sidenote - I just received my first collections notice in the mail today. :bouncy: Yaaay!

[magiic]

On a selfish sidenote - I just received my first collections notice in the mail today. :bouncy: Yaaay!


collections from whom? Paypal? lol

[Narbotic]

yeah, well some thugs they hired anyway, can't remember the agency name right now. I'll look later.

[yungflo]

I can't believe paypal is fucking you over like this.

[magiic]

So I got an e-mail from paypal yesterday morning requesting I send them proof of the COD charges so I did. I called UPS talked to a UPS representative who faxed me all the invoice stuff from the package. Then I made up a coversheet as per paypals e-mail faxed it to them literally within in hour of them requesting. Last night after work I check my account and the case is gone. They denied my appeal and closed it. I am thinking of calling them and asking WHAT THE fuck IS GOING ON. Still no word from the BBB in regards to my complaint against paypal either.

[magiic]

Ugh Paypal just re-opened the case saying they have recieved my documents. I swear to god one hand never knows what the other is doing over there.

[cribbs542]

what the heck, this is ridiculous. keep us posted!

[magiic]

Ya it is pretty ridiculous. I'm still waiting to see what they will do next.

[io]

Yeah, no kidding. You sold this right after launch, right? So this has been going on for over 5 months now. Amazing...

[Warner1281]

Fucking ridiculous. I am glad to see that you are fighting this tooth and nail. :applause: I know I would have given up long ago and simply closed the account and started fresh. Honestly, it would probably be easier to just show up at their HQ, and be like... hey, where the fuck's my money bitches? Here's the paperwork you need, now let's get this fixed, NOW!

[magiic]

Unfortunately for me travelling to San Jose really isn't in the cards lol. I would of closed the account but unfortunately you can't close an account that has a negative balance nor can I delete my bank account from it.

[magiic]

I got Paypals response from the BBB. They basically told me in one page that I am fucked and I can take it up with UPS or eBay. They completely ignored the CoD charge claim and made no mention of the fact that I faxed in the proof of the CoD charges they requested and just said that I refused it because claimed I never ordered (thats what it said on the UPS tracking). I sent a response back to the BBB again about the CoD thing and also how I faxed them the info they requested yet they have still done nothing. I'm waiting for a response from Paypal or the BBB now.

[eebuckeye]

Any update?

[magiic]

Got an e-mail from the BBB telling me paypal says Im SOL. So I'm just going to give up on this I think. Paypal isn't getting a dime out of me. Paypal still says my case is being reived though in my account resolution center.

[tangytangerine]

Got an e-mail from the BBB telling me paypal says Im SOL. So I'm just going to give up on this I think. Paypal isn't getting a dime out of me. Paypal still says my case is being reived though in my account resolution center.
Well, since BBB has basically told you that Paypal is saying FU, call the guy's local police. He's basically stealing from you.

[FoxHoundADAM]

Man this sucks. Between crap like this and all the fishing scams I am going to start avoid ebay again.

My PSP has only been up 2 days and I've already got 2 emails from people trying to steal my email and account.

[Jeoff]

This sucks!! After all this time I want a happy ending!!!

Sorry for your loss. I've been ripped off by paypal before too.

[SmellsLikeRandyMossGuy]

1,000 is worth your time, don't give up. Keep fighting. Be a man.

[MrBubbles]

cAll the cops, dont let this son of a bitch get away with it.

[Kapwanil]

Hmmm...just a thought, but would taking the guy to Small Claims Court be feasible or reasonable in this case? It could be a possible next step, especially for that amount of money.

[machoman_93]

Hmmm...just a thought, but would taking the guy to Small Claims Court be feasible or reasonable in this case? It could be a possible next step, especially for that amount of money.

I don't know if he could do that. The other guy is in Flordia (i think), and the OP is in Canada.

[magiic]

Ya I'm in Victoria, on the west coast of Canada he is in Florida on the east coast of the states, we're about as far apart as we can be so taking him to court isn't really worth it. I have no idea how I'd go about contacting his local police or how I would even go about doing that if anyone has any tips Im open to them. The case is still under review by paypal so who knows maybe a miracle may come out of this. In hindsight I could of just kept the ps3 when it came and closed my paypal account and told him to go fuck himself but Im not that kind of person so I tried to stick to the book and follow the rules and it looks like it will bite me in the ass.

[slidecage]

Dear Genevieve/Whomever It May Concern,

I am e-mailing in response to the e-mail I received stating that a refund had been issued on my behalf in regards to case number PP-***-***-*** involving myself and a Mr. ******. This refund has been issued in error as the last e-mail I received before the one stating a refund had been issued stated that I was in violation of Paypal's user agreement by being in possession of both the item in question (ONE Playstation 3) and Mr.****'s money at the same time. However according the same e-mail Paypal acknowledged that the package had been refused as per the UPS tracking number (1Z W69 9W9 68 4338 184 3). The status of the package can be checked at http://www.ups.com (http://www.ups.com/) to show that I do not in fact have the item in my possession. The reason I refused the package was that Mr.**** failed to follow Paypal's guidelines for mailing the package back to me. As per Paypal's guidelines he was required to mail the package back in it's original condition and he was to cover all costs in mailing it back. Unfortunately Mr.***** neglected to do this and when the item arrived at my place of residence the UPS Delivery Personnel informed me that there was $187.52CAD COD (Cash on Delivery). As such I refused the package because Mr.**** was required to return the package to me at ZERO expense to myself. He failed to do such and as a result I informed the UPS representative that I wished to "Return To Sender" the package. The tracking number for this package confirms that I refused the package and that it is not in my possession. Currently you have issued a refund to Mr.* on false pretences that I have the item hand, however Mr.***** is currently the one in violation of Paypal's User Agreement as he now has the money in hand and will soon have the item in hand as well. As stated in the last e-mail an individual cannot be in possession of both the item and the money therefore I respectfully request that the refund be reversed and my Paypal account be returned to a balance of $0.00 as it was before the refund was issued.

Thank You,
Respectfully,
Ryan Laker

-----------------------------------------------------------

There is the e-mail I sent paypal

so your expecting the person to return the system to you and be out 200+ bucks. I know if i ever got a system and it didnt work there is no way in hell i would pay 200+ bucks to return it to the seller.

how much did you sell the system for cause im pretty sure even if they went though the post office insurance you would never get more then what the system cost

I was told if you sold PS3s last xmas the post office would not give you more then 600 if the system was lost or broken cause they would only cover the replacement cost

so if you sold the system for say 1500 bucks and even had 1500 bucks of insurnace on it the most the post office owuld paid was 600

[magiic]

so your expecting the person to return the system to you and be out 200+ bucks. I know if i ever got a system and it didnt work there is no way in hell i would pay 200+ bucks to return it to the seller.

how much did you sell the system for cause im pretty sure even if they went though the post office insurance you would never get more then what the system cost

I was told if you sold PS3s last xmas the post office would not give you more then 600 if the system was lost or broken cause they would only cover the replacement cost

so if you sold the system for say 1500 bucks and even had 1500 bucks of insurnace on it the most the post office owuld paid was 600


all he had to do was mark it as a return and there would of been no duty at all. I also knew about the insurance and explained this too him in the paypal dispute. I insured the system for the value of the ps3 based on the receipt which was like $745CAD after tax for a 60GB. I'm pretty sure the only reason this guy wanted to get his money back was because he was an idiot, he even told me he bought this to re-sell, by the time it got to him PS3 prices had plummeted to around like $800-$900USD and he paid $1025USD for it. My bet his he was just trying to get his money back because he couldn't sell it and make a profit anymore.

[tuning.sensei]

Magiic,

Are you allowed to post his eBay ID so I, and others, can avoid transactions with him in the future?

[magiic]

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to do that or not.

[coolsteel]

So in the end Paypal had their way with you, didn't even buy you dinner first. Really sorry to hear it man. And screw it, the douchebag kept a 1000 bucks and the ps3, post his I.D

[magiic]

So in the end Paypal had their way with you, didn't even buy you dinner first. Really sorry to hear it man. And screw it, the douchebag kept a 1000 bucks and the ps3, post his I.D

Ya paypal raped me hardcore, although the case is still "under review" so there may be hope yet, however small. As long as this isn't against site rules his user ID is acosta2007 so go ahead and lock him out. I would love to travel down to florida and give this guy a piece of my mind but it isnt really doable :(

[tangytangerine]

I would love to travel down to florida and give this guy a piece of my mind but it isnt really doable :(

Post what town he lives, maybe a CAG lives near him and stop by his house to talk him about it.

[RAMSTORIA]

Post what town he lives, maybe a CAG lives near him and stop by his house to talk him about it.

get someone to break into his house and take his ps3 and a few extra goodies and maybe a cat

[machoman_93]

Hey, you can see magiic's auction.
Look (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180052560658&ru=http://search.ebay.com:80/180052560658_W0QQfrppZ50QQfsopZ1QQmaxrecordsreturn edZ300QQfviZ1)

[magiic]

haha wow I thought that was long gone. I love how I effed up the title and said it was a 30GB ( I made my ps3 listings after going about 35+ hours without sleep because I camped for the ps3 from 12pm on the 16th till 7am on the 17th when walmart opened and then I went to school for the day after that and when I got home I made the listings. I was so zonked.

[machoman_93]

get someone to break into his house and take his ps3 and a few extra goodies and maybe a cat
Yeah, make the cat roadkill. I HATE cats. They always crap on my car. Worse than the brids.

My library has phone books from all over the US, just give me his name and his area/zip code and i'll send the cops to his house.

[slidecage]

all he had to do was mark it as a return and there would of been no duty at all. I also knew about the insurance and explained this too him in the paypal dispute. I insured the system for the value of the ps3 based on the receipt which was like $745CAD after tax for a 60GB. I'm pretty sure the only reason this guy wanted to get his money back was because he was an idiot, he even told me he bought this to re-sell, by the time it got to him PS3 prices had plummeted to around like $800-$900USD and he paid $1025USD for it. My bet his he was just trying to get his money back because he couldn't sell it and make a profit anymore.

even after he opened the package (or was the package still sealed)

i hope you get your cash back.

Last year someone sold me a fake 1 year ebay code and i was very lucky to get my cash back (dude on paypal phone said he couldnt belive that they give my cash back) i think i had buyer protection or something like that so why wouldnt you have seller protection ??

if your bank account is link to your account i would go to my bank and tell them about the problem and say if PAYPAL tries to remove any money put a block on them

[magiic]

even after he opened the package (or was the package still sealed)



not sure what you mean? explain hopefully I can answer.

[machoman_93]

I would send him free subscriptions to stupid magazines, like PETA or KRAFT.

[magiic]

lol you're just full of ideas arent you machoman

[tuning.sensei]

I would send him free subscriptions to stupid magazines, like PETA or KRAFT.

That's a pretty good idea...

[Caliburn]

lol you're just full of ideas arent you machoman

Here's an interesting news story:

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/11536665/detail.html :wave:

[Ziv]

Here's an interesting news story:

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/11536665/detail.html :wave:

That's awesome. Just...awesome.

[magiic]

that is fucking hilarious....just wow

[magiic]

Well it's over now. Paypal has decided once and for all I lose. Game over. They sent me an e-mail saying Im fucked in a few paragraphs. What irks me though is they completely ignored the stuff I faxed into them. Didnt even mention the failure of the buyer to pay all shipping and handling fees along with marking it as a return. So whatever, the guy got a free PS3 that pisses me off but I didnt lose any money and they won't get a dime out of me. So if they want their money back they can get it from the buyer. Also to anyone wishing to block him his ebay ID is.... acosta2007

[MrNEWZ]

Wow... just wow. Time to change e-mail addresses, I guess? ;-)

Honestly, in sending to you the guy made a silly mistake that most people don't "get" when insuring or valuing things sent TO CANADA. The fact that you explained it to him put the fault on him, not you.

The fear from Paypal is obviously that BUYERS are there getting "screwed" by the evil sellers so they must protect buyers. It's the same idea that has tons of various things in place to protect buyers (CAGs always mention going to the BBB when things don't go their way, totally missing that to be FAIR things in some situations SHOULDN'T be going their way)... sellers, well--- enjoy the "loss". There's a reason accounting includes cost of stolen/damaged/returned merchandise. ;-)

[magiic]

I'm pretty choked. I'm closing my bank account today at lunch.
I also e-mailed them telling them they may aswell close my account because they won't get a dime from me. Doubt they will though. I'll probably start another paypal account but it will be strictly for buying or stuff or selling on CAG. I don't think I will be selling on ebay anymore. Just not worth the risk.

[MrNEWZ]

I'm pretty choked. I'm closing my bank account today at lunch.
I also e-mailed them telling them they may aswell close my account because they won't get a dime from me. Doubt they will though. I'll probably start another paypal account but it will be strictly for buying or stuff or selling on CAG. I don't think I will be selling on ebay anymore. Just not worth the risk.

I spent time, money, and effort to put up an item for something I'd consider a collector's item years ago. I even had an artist friend of mine do some work to go along with it since I thought it'd be "cool" to throw in. The auction closed at a pretty high dollar figure. I never got paid.

Despite the NPB complaints, eBay refunded none of my fees. There's a reason I don't sell on eBay.

CAG is one of the few communities I've run into where the people genuinely don't seem like they're intent on ripping you off when you *COMMIT* to a deal (obviously, everyone wants the best deal for them otherwise).

I traded tons of other stuff in the past and even bending over backwards to make some people happy, you'd be surprised at the amount of crazy, bitter 12 year olds there are in the world. You say no to someone who regularly trades with you after 2 years and then you're a theif, a liar, and a hack and you peddle garbage.

People are human. Mistakes happen, There's a rational way to make everyone "win" in most unfortunate situations, but I'm continually amazed at how most people miss that.

[magiic]

From the few trades I've made I really like CAG. I have zero problems thus far every trade and sale I've made both sides have come through on there side of the bargain with no hiccups. But I've had so many crappy buyers on ebay. Probably 10 NPB, then you just get the people who ask you stupid questions like the day they buy it "has it shipped it isnt here yet". I definately think I'm done with ebay.

[Number83]

Sorry to hear that.

So are you going to contact him to get your PS3? What about the police about your stolen property? If I was out $1K, and a PS3, there would be no way I'd let him get away with it.

[magiic]

I havent really lost any money unless paypal tries to take it from me. I got my money out of paypal in time. My paypal account has a balance of -$1025.00 though. As far as contacting the buyer what is he going to do? He will just laugh at me. He has his money and the ps3 which has already probably sold because that was his initial plan anyways. As far as persuing criminal charges I have no idea how I do that from the otherside of the continent in a different country.

[Wolve11]

Yea, but with Paypal stating that you have a -1000 account wouldn't that hurt your credit score, and wouldn't that 1000 become more and more money the longer you don't pay them?
I still would try and pursue the guy legally to get my PS3 back.

[Veritas1204]

Not to further ruin your day, but watch out for collections notices. Although most people don't believe it, Paypal DOES go after delinquent accounts with high negative amounts, although it isn't as frequent as they'd like you to believe.

Here's to hoping you don't get any shit from them, and that the buyer's PS3 is one of the thousands that fry after a few uses. From what I've seen from you Magiic, this couldn't have happened to a better person.

Oh and fuck Ebay; if not for my job in LE, I would have probably gone to jail for what I did to a douchebag scammer that sent my wife a picture of a cell phone and got away with it. (well, ALMOST got away with it, but that's an entirely different thread for another day).

Good luck Magiic, and Godspeed.

-V

[nonggame]

Damn man, I would kill that mofo for taking my PS3 MK style. FINISH HIM !!!! don't take my advice seriously lol but that what I will do or want to if something like that happen to me.

[magiic]

Apparently the collection process for paypal in Canada is pretty weak. So I'm safe there, also paypal can't put anything against your credit score as they dont have your SIN# nor are they a recognized lending organization or somehting like that. I read stuff at paypalsucks.com that basically said my Credit Score is safe. Does anyone know anything about how I could go after this guy legally, like filing a criminal complaint or something.

[machoman_93]

Apparently the collection process for paypal in Canada is pretty weak. So I'm safe there, also paypal can't put anything against your credit score as they dont have your SIN# nor are they a recognized lending organization or somehting like that. I read stuff at paypalsucks.com that basically said my Credit Score is safe. Does anyone know anything about how I could go after this guy legally, like filing a criminal complaint or something.

Call his local police and leave an anymonous tip that he raped 5 little boys and fed them crack. At least give him 1 bad day.

[magiic]

Somehow I think that could have bad ramifications for me.

On another note tommorow I'm going to go open a new bank account at HSBC and start a new paypal account with a new e-mail address and new bank account and I will no longer be selling on ebay. I will deal strictly on CAG, Goozex and GameTraderWorld.

[machoman_93]

I don't think thats a good idea. If you put the same address, use your work address if possible. They'll probably notice that its the same address if you use the same one as before. Although its good you're not using EBay anymore. Oh and if they start sending you collection notices, go to the post office and tell them to send all mail from that address back.

[magiic]

I'm not sure using the same address will be a big deal there is already another account under this address as it is. My dads account is under the same address as mine. I don't have any other address to use though.

[rk69rn]

Hey Magic,

I'm in a similar situation. I'm negative 1499 in my account from a ps3 sale. Just called paypal twice today.

Buyers tried to return after winning 2 ps3's and opening my package. I refused to accept and they started a claim with paypal.

I eventually won the dispute but 3 weeks later, they filed a chargeback with CC company and account went negative. 3 days later a collection agency is calling daily.

Paypal is pathetic, I am filing a cease and desist letter to the collection agency and am contemplating suit against Paypal.

Goodluck,
RK

[magiic]

Wow thats shitty. I've had a negative balance for over 3 months I think. Still nothing from collections. Let me know how things end up for you.

[io]

Hey Magic,

I'm in a similar situation. I'm negative 1499 in my account from a ps3 sale. Just called paypal twice today.

Buyers tried to return after winning 2 ps3's and opening my package. I refused to accept and they started a claim with paypal.

I eventually won the dispute but 3 weeks later, they filed a chargeback with CC company and account went negative. 3 days later a collection agency is calling daily.

Paypal is pathetic, I am filing a cease and desist letter to the collection agency and am contemplating suit against Paypal.

Goodluck,
RK

Was there some reason you weren't covered by PayPal seller protection? Unlike in Magiic's case, if you WON the dispute you should have been covered assuming DC showed delivery (and it seems the buyers didn't dispute delivery anyway). My point is PayPal is supposed to cover you in the case of chargebacks IF it was sent to a confirmed address with signature confirmation and all that.

I had a much smaller item that was allegedly bought with a stolen account or something. I never did hear the details but as soon as I forwarded DC information (which, of course, they already had as I used PayPal shipping :roll:) they reversed the reversal and I never heard about it again. Key point was that the address I sent to was "confirmed" at the time I sent it (it went unconfirmed shortly afterwards which worried me a bit).

PayPal does, indeed, suck, but there's no way around it if you want to sell on eBay. But I fully understand you wanting to get out of that mess as well Magiic (though they are really one and the same, eBay is a whole 'nother mess).

[yukine]

You should post this story over at www.paypalsucks.com.

[forgrim]

i don't know how it works in Canada, but the biggest single worry that would plague me is collection agencies. If paypal sends your account off to collections, maybe living in another country will do you good. However, man...I've just had horrible experiences with collections even though i had absolute no debt at all (some $$$ with the same name as me went into debt exactly 1000 dollars and they thought it was me)

mother fuckers called me forever and i kept telling them it was someone else but of course, they thought i was lying. Then i used tips i got from consumerist.com about collectors, and never heard back from them ever again.

[magiic]

Well I'll look into consumerist but according to paypalsucks.com the collections agency paypal uses in Canada is a joke. Also in regards to paypalsucks.com I actually posted my story there back when it started so updated it today.

My Post On Paypalsucks (http://www.paypalsucks.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=21394&fid=3&block=0)

[slidecage]

Well it's over now. Paypal has decided once and for all I lose. Game over. They sent me an e-mail saying Im fucked in a few paragraphs. What irks me though is they completely ignored the stuff I faxed into them. Didnt even mention the failure of the buyer to pay all shipping and handling fees along with marking it as a return. So whatever, the guy got a free PS3 that pisses me off but I didnt lose any money and they won't get a dime out of me. So if they want their money back they can get it from the buyer. Also to anyone wishing to block him his ebay ID is.... acosta2007


Dont be shocked if they sue you or put a block on your wages. Im sure there is one way or another Paypal will get that cash. They probally have your SS number though your bank account so they can find you even if you close out this account and open another.

[tuning.sensei]

I havent really lost any money unless paypal tries to take it from me. I got my money out of paypal in time. My paypal account has a balance of -$1025.00 though. As far as contacting the buyer what is he going to do? He will just laugh at me. He has his money and the ps3 which has already probably sold because that was his initial plan anyways. As far as persuing criminal charges I have no idea how I do that from the otherside of the continent in a different country.

Magiic,

If he sells it on eBay, you can buy it and then start a dispute with PayPal after you get it. Karma baby, karma.

[blazerock]

Paypal isn't that aggressive. I got hit with a similar situation when i sold an imac a while back. I basically said screw that shit... opened a new acct with paypal connected to a diff bank acct and 4 years later not a peep.

F0ck ebay and f0ck paypal

[magiic]

Paypal isn't that aggressive. I got hit with a similar situation when i sold an imac a while back. I basically said screw that shit... opened a new acct with paypal connected to a diff bank acct and 4 years later not a peep.

F0ck ebay and f0ck paypal

amen to that

[Roufuss]

Was there some reason you weren't covered by PayPal seller protection? Unlike in Magiic's case, if you WON the dispute you should have been covered assuming DC showed delivery (and it seems the buyers didn't dispute delivery anyway). My point is PayPal is supposed to cover you in the case of chargebacks IF it was sent to a confirmed address with signature confirmation and all that.

I had a much smaller item that was allegedly bought with a stolen account or something. I never did hear the details but as soon as I forwarded DC information (which, of course, they already had as I used PayPal shipping :roll:) they reversed the reversal and I never heard about it again. Key point was that the address I sent to was "confirmed" at the time I sent it (it went unconfirmed shortly afterwards which worried me a bit).

PayPal does, indeed, suck, but there's no way around it if you want to sell on eBay. But I fully understand you wanting to get out of that mess as well Magiic (though they are really one and the same, eBay is a whole 'nother mess).

He won the Paypal dispute, but the guy just charged back through his credit card company, at which point Paypal tries to get the money back from you.

Paypal protection shit dosen't cover you against credit card chargebacks, just Paypal chargebacks. The system is VERY broken, and I REALLY hope someone nails Paypal to the wall for this shit.

[magiic]

Im tempted to go down to San Jose and nail someone to the wall

[depascal22]

The only way to stop this is to stop using Paypal. I've heard nothing but horror stories. I'd rather be able to deal directly with the seller. If they screw me, I just call the local authorities and let them deal with it.

EDIT -- I have several "buddies" in the Bay Area. If you need any "assistance", let me know.

[iflabs]

He won the Paypal dispute, but the guy just charged back through his credit card company, at which point Paypal tries to get the money back from you.

Paypal protection shit dosen't cover you against credit card chargebacks, just Paypal chargebacks. The system is VERY broken, and I REALLY hope someone nails Paypal to the wall for this shit.

There is no difference between "Paypal chargeback" and "CC chargeback". Anyone eligibile for Paypal's SPP should be protected against chargebacks. If Paypal is still hounding you for the money even though you were eligible for the SPP, Paypal lied and stole from you.

[RedvsBlue]

The only way to stop this is to stop using Paypal. I've heard nothing but horror stories. I'd rather be able to deal directly with the seller. If they screw me, I just call the local authorities and let them deal with it.

EDIT -- I have several "buddies" in the Bay Area. If you need any "assistance", let me know.

You know, the only reason you hear the "horrow stories" is because when people are screwed over they scream about it long and loudly (I'm not passing judgement either way). What you don't hear about is the millions of paypal transactions that go off without a hitch.

[magiic]

Ya up until this point I have had zero problems with paypal. I will still use paypal for CAG stuff because it's the easiest way for me to recieve money and buy stuff online. I will not be selling on ebay anymore though.

[rk69rn]

I thought I was covered by their plan and according to the paypal website under the chargeback faq, I am.

Here is a copy and paste from the website:

If a seller amicably resolves a PayPal dispute or wins a claim, is the seller covered against chargebacks?

Yes, if a seller amicably resolves a dispute through PayPal Dispute Resolution or wins a claim, the seller is protected against any chargeback the buyer's credit card company later files for that transaction.
To be covered, however, the seller must honor agreements made with the buyer during the dispute resolution process. And, if the chargeback comes in before the dispute or claim is resolved, the seller will not be covered.



The key sentence for me is the 'seller is protected against any chargeback the buyer's CC company later files for that transaction.'


I have pointed this sentence out to no less than 5 resolution specialists from paypal and noone can explain this to me.

The response has been that the seller protection policy doesn't cover chargebacks over merchandise not as described.

I then counter with, seller is protected against any chargeback. There are no stipulations for the word any. Any chargeback pretty much means any, not some or most.

I'm trying to figure out how to litigate this issue because I am not out the money currently, it is a potential loss.

Keep me informed of your situation also.

Thanks,
RK

[Roufuss]

There is no difference between "Paypal chargeback" and "CC chargeback". Anyone eligibile for Paypal's SPP should be protected against chargebacks. If Paypal is still hounding you for the money even though you were eligible for the SPP, Paypal lied and stole from you.

Should be, but aren't.

There's a story right there on the second to last page about how someone won the Paypal dispute, the buyer did a chargeback through his credit card company, and Paypal goes after the seller for the money.

I've heard of it happening often.

What was just posted up above, hell, you could open a credit card chargeback without ever doing paypal's dispute and you're *not* covered. There is PLENTY of loophole's to get around Paypal.

[rk69rn]

Let me say that I am a powerseller on Ebay and have used paypal for years. I know how to sell and have done so successfully using paypal.

The problem is paypal is a very large financial institution but states that they are not and so far have not had to be tied to the same laws. For instance, all banks are required to earn money with any money deposited with them. If money is held for any reason, it must earn interest.

Paypal has consistently and repeatedly, without oversight, continued to freeze customer's funds in the name of fraud prevention. These funds total into the millions. These funds can be held up to 6 months and trust me, it is.
The catch is, paypal collects all the interest from this money.
Conveniently, the customer agreed to allow this when they sign up for an account.
This is just one example of the flogging that paypal is giving it's customers.

I have learned alot after my ordeal and will never use paypal again.
It is ok if you use it to buy something, just pay with credit card but never, never sell with it unless you can afford to lose the item or money.

The end,
RK

[magiic]

I changed the thread title to better reflect the situation.

[toper]

Let me say that I am a powerseller on Ebay and have used paypal for years. I know how to sell and have done so successfully using paypal.

The problem is paypal is a very large financial institution but states that they are not and so far have not had to be tied to the same laws. For instance, all banks are required to earn money with any money deposited with them. If money is held for any reason, it must earn interest.

Paypal has consistently and repeatedly, without oversight, continued to freeze customer's funds in the name of fraud prevention. These funds total into the millions. These funds can be held up to 6 months and trust me, it is.
The catch is, paypal collects all the interest from this money.
Conveniently, the customer agreed to allow this when they sign up for an account.
This is just one example of the flogging that paypal is giving it's customers.

I have learned alot after my ordeal and will never use paypal again.
It is ok if you use it to buy something, just pay with credit card but never, never sell with it unless you can afford to lose the item or money.

The end,
RK


As a fellow powerseller/paypal user, I fully agree with the above. I don't know who ebay/paypal are blowing on capital hill, but it just boggles my mind that an institution that acts like a bank and handles millions (billions?) of dollars nationwide can avoid any type of federal regulation.

Paypal is without a doubt the WORST company (in terms of customer service and policy) that I deal with on a regular basis. Unfortunately, they are a "necessary evil" if you do any type of business on ebay (who, SURPRISE, just happens to own paypal).

For those of you who have never had any problems with paypal, consider yourselves EXTREMELY lucky. I have to constantly make sure that my paypal balance (and bank account tied to it) are at zero, just to protect myself from potential scammers. Needless to say, I go out of my way to try and avoid using ebay/paypal if at all possible.

[E_G_Man]

I just read every single page of this thread, very interesting. Good luck and hopefully this is the end of it.

[io]

He won the Paypal dispute, but the guy just charged back through his credit card company, at which point Paypal tries to get the money back from you.

Paypal protection shit dosen't cover you against credit card chargebacks, just Paypal chargebacks. The system is VERY broken, and I REALLY hope someone nails Paypal to the wall for this shit.

Hmmm... I thought they did. Well, in my case it was my understanding that the guy reported the card number stolen, and yet I was covered. Anyway, maybe it was just because it was only for $20 :lol:.

Anyway, good luck magiic, I hope you win out. It pisses me off knowing the guy got his money back AND a PS3 though. PayPal sucks slightly less than he does.

[depascal22]

Maybe it's time to write our congressmen.

[magiic]

I'd write to my congressman if I had one lol

[iflabs]

http://forums.ebay.com/db2/thread.jspa?threadID=1000476008&tstart=0&mod=1176499332762

^^ Screwed out of a PS3 also. XD

Paypal is runned by morons. Everything works out nice and dandy until someone gets their money swiped.

Apparently Paypal does not cover chargebacks relating to disputes with "items not as described" now. Wow....

[rk69rn]

UPDATE!

Called Paypal with my attorney present on speaker phone, spoke to resolution specialist with normal run around. My attorney requested a supervisor( previously I was told that they were the supervisor and it was the last stop), after 20 minutes more of hold time, I got someone with the ability to do something and she credited my account without any problems.

I'll let you know when it actually takes place, she stated 2-4 days.

[magiic]

Nice work, congrats :D

I hope it works out for you and you get your monies back.

[vivafriend5]

You should post this story over at www.paypalsucks.com (http://www.paypalsucks.com). I'm just sorta mentioning this, I wouldn't bother with that site, it's nothing more than a haven to advertise this.
(http://www.merchantinc.com/)

[magiic]

Ya I agree it really is. Thats one thing I noticed when I posted my stuff there.

[rk69rn]

My account has been credited. Good Luck to anyone else with a similar problem.

[yukine]

Maybe it's worth trying to call PayPal with an attorney? If you don't have one, you could always have a friend act like one over the phone.

[TheBlueWizard]

Maybe it's worth trying to call PayPal with an attorney? If you don't have one, you could always have a friend act like one over the phone.

Well, that would be fraud, so I wouldn't recommend it.

Get a lawyer if you can and make those suckers pay. I'd also have your lawyer contact the buyer and put the heat on. File a small claims lawsuit, get on Judge Judy, whatever, just hound that asshole to death.

TBW

PS On second thought, that might be harassment, but I'd still try it.

[yukine]

Fighting fraud with fraud, I recommend it wholeheartedly.

[magiic]

I dont have the money to hire a lawyer at 17 (well I guess I do, but should I really be putting my money towards a lawyer) and technically at seventeen I shouldnt even have a paypal account but thats a story for another day. Am I really going to see any gains by getting a lawyer to fight some guy on the otherside of the continent in another country really worth my time and money?

[schuerm26]

I dont have the money to hire a lawyer at 17 (well I guess I do, but should I really be putting my money towards a lawyer) and technically at seventeen I shouldnt even have a paypal account but thats a story for another day. Am I really going to see any gains by getting a lawyer to fight some guy on the otherside of the continent in another country really worth my time and money?

Some of the best advice I have ever gotten was that there are always some things in life you are just going to have to chalk up as a loss. If it were me I would consider this to be one of them and just take it as a lesson learned.

[omgu8myrice]

I dont have the money to hire a lawyer at 17 (well I guess I do, but should I really be putting my money towards a lawyer) and technically at seventeen I shouldnt even have a paypal account but thats a story for another day. Am I really going to see any gains by getting a lawyer to fight some guy on the otherside of the continent in another country really worth my time and money?

no, take a lesson out of this and move on. Sometimes the bad guys win.

[Dro]

This happened to me while selling off my yugioh collection. I had a -350 account and needed $50 in it to settle the dispute and close it. The way I settled it was making all the money back. So I sold like $500 of stuff on ebay for in like 2 weeks.
My suggestion when selling something $100+ is to hold off on buying anything with the money you made until the buyer is recieves and is happy.

[magiic]

@ above posters
Thats how I see it. There is no point in fighting this anymore. I worked at for like 5 months and got shit all out of it. No point in pouring more time or money into it.

@Dro
I get my money out of my account asap especially when I had close to $8000 in my account I was not leaving it in there so paypal could screw me out all of my hard earned because some buyer wanted to be a douche. Paypal can eat the $1025. I'm just going to use a new account. I'm also going to start selling on Amazon in the hopes it goes better than ebay.

[yukine]

You're much more level headed than I am, magiic.

I'd be on them like white on rice until they cracked.

[iazybandit]

Sorry to hear that magiic. But on a brighter note, your Hot Shots Golf Fore! from Goozex will be sent out tomorrow (hope its the same magiic)

[Inf^Shini]

Here's an interesting news story:

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/11536665/detail.html :wave:

That's pretty messed up.

As for the PS3 ordeal, just wow, another victim. I've been in a similar situation, except I was out an xbox 360 + $600. They didn't get the money back til' about one and 1/2 years later through collections >.>
I had a -$200.00 + balance and after about a year, my account was suspended (didn't care), but then I did get calls and letters from collections. I had one hell of a time with that, and I do believe my credit score suffered, b/c I tried applying for a credit card down the line and was denied :/

The lady at my bank told me to wait a year, then re-apply. Apparently your credit score increases w/out doing anything o_O

There's a lotta crafty people out there, I just list a couple things on Ebay and watch them closely. Due to all the scams, NPB's, and jackasses, I've pretty much stuck to selling within the US only and only sell outside the US when there's been no bites for at least 2 months and I'm desperate to get rid of it.

One thing I don't understand is, they give the buyer A LOT of power in claims, and the seller practically has no defense, even when providing all the necessary info and proving their case. The final decision is usually left up to the buyer who at that point will probably attack without mercy.

[Caliburn]

If you do sell things in the future, magiic, don't let the lure of a lofty profit override your learned intuition from this ordeal. I keep my eBay sales managable and usually under $75 to limit douchebag buyer financial abuse.

[magiic]

I think in future if ever did something this large scale again I'd make a paypal account specifically for it and get the money out ASAP and close the account as soon as I had the money. Hell there was a two week period during the dispute my account was unlocked. In hindsight I wish I had of closed my account.

[Inf^Shini]

I think in future if ever did something this large scale again I'd make a paypal account specifically for it and get the money out ASAP and close the account as soon as I had the money. Hell there was a two week period during the dispute my account was unlocked. In hindsight I wish I had of closed my account.

I'm figuring you'll have to change info if you want to do something like that, who knows, paypal might do a search for all accounts under the same name and address and nail you on your other account.

They can do that on Ebay so why not paypal ya know?
Just a heads up for later occassions

[phear3d]

how could i have missed this.. i was probably too busy at circuit city looking for phoenix wright or something for $12.xx

anyways.. i really feel for you, magiic, after all the 12 pages ive read over this ps3 ordeal of yours. but, you shouldnt ignore big corporations like paypal. they will bite you again if they find a better solution to collect in your country. its better to find someone (a lawyer, or a non-profit org) to help you out on this one. in my opinion, i dont think this case is done. money isn't always involve when needing help and i know its not easy to get help, but i believe those who need it the most will get it. maybe even law students could help you out even? the point is to turn the negative experience into a positive and hopeful one. in the eyes of paypal yes you have lost the battle, but you have so many evidence that they have ignored. i have alot to say but i feel as if everyone else contributed them already. i hate to say this, its not just the buyer who cheated you, its him and a big corporation cheated you.

also, i understand that you live in canada. but this doesn't mean you cant write letters to officials even in the U.S. (if it was me, i would contact the law enforcement around his town and report the bastard. but thats me.)

better be prepared than never. save everything. all im hoping is that you do not give up on this. look at the guy with the $150 claim and won, yours is $1050.

[magiic]

If I create a new paypal account under a different name what do I have to watch out for? Does my bank account need to be in the same name etc?

[rewerbkcirtap]

Thought I would drop off this suggestion. You could call him and tape record the conversation. Then you would have some hard evidence to support your side. Of course, you would need to check on laws concerning recorded phone conversations.

[Veritas1204]

Magiic, I saw you mentioned earlier that you are only 17, and not even supposed to have a PP account. Do you know if there are any laws in your country that prevent creditors from collecting debts from minors? I know that here in the US, minor protection laws prevent car dealerships and CC companies from forcing payment of debt on anyone under 18., (at least, that is the effect of the laws in my state). And while I'm not sure they would even pertain to you, you might look into it if/when the PP creditors come calling.

This is assuming of course, that you signed up alone, and didn't use your parent's account or anything. If you did that, PP would just hold them responsible for the balance.

Anyway, good luck, and I hope all ends well.

[magiic]

Magiic, I saw you mentioned earlier that you are only 17, and not even supposed to have a PP account. Do you know if there are any laws in your country that prevent creditors from collecting debts from minors? I know that here in the US, minor protection laws prevent car dealerships and CC companies from forcing payment of debt on anyone under 18., (at least, that is the effect of the laws in my state). And while I'm not sure they would even pertain to you, you might look into it if/when the PP creditors come calling.

This is assuming of course, that you signed up alone, and didn't use your parent's account or anything. If you did that, PP would just hold them responsible for the balance.

Anyway, good luck, and I hope all ends well.

Nope it's entirely my account under my name attached to a bank account also under my name. I believe though if they come after me for collection at such a time when I am found to be a minor although at the rate paypal does things I could very well be no longer a minor by the time they send me to collections. If they come after when Im a minor I think responsibility falls to my legal guardians to cover the debt owing. Still nothing from paypal outside of the your account has a negative balance e-mails.

[Friend of Sonic]

This is horrible. I'm sorry op. Your story is making me wonder if I should take my 3,000 out of their money market account.

[magiic]

I personally would never again leave money in my paypal account for more than 10 minutes.

[Caliburn]

I believe though if they come after me for collection at such a time when I am found to be a minor although at the rate paypal does things I could very well be no longer a minor by the time they send me to collections. If they come after when Im a minor I think responsibility falls to my legal guardians to cover the debt owing.

Your age at the time of Paypal's so-called infraction is what counts. If Paypal sits on it and decides to sic a collections hound on you when you're 25, then you're protected since you were under age majority at the time. Going after your parents, ...well, for a settlement perhaps. That happens often in the US with the RIAA suing minors for copyright infringement and family members settling before court.

That's at least in the US. I'm not sure how the US-Canada Paypal TOS is listed and in which country/state/province legal issues are dealt. All that could verily be out the window for all I know.

[io]

This is horrible. I'm sorry op. Your story is making me wonder if I should take my 3,000 out of their money market account.

Wow, how did you build it up so high? ;)

Anyways, unless you are selling big ticket items that you might get scammed on (ala Magiic) I wouldn't worry about it. As I discussed with you before (via PM) the interest I've made off the PayPal money market has more than made up for the occasional chargeback on a small item (I've had one from a buyer in Spain).

[magiic]

Your age at the time of Paypal's so-called infraction is what counts. If Paypal sits on it and decides to sic a collections hound on you when you're 25, then you're protected since you were under age majority at the time. Going after your parents, ...well, for a settlement perhaps. That happens often in the US with the RIAA suing minors for copyright infringement and family members settling before court.

That's at least in the US. I'm not sure how the US-Canada Paypal TOS is listed and in which country/state/province legal issues are dealt. All that could verily be out the window for all I know.

as far as I have read paypal deals with a collections agency in Quebec, apparently all it takes to get them to give up is use a stern voice and tell them to stop harassing you lol

[magiic]

Just got an e-mail saying it's my last warning before the pursue other collection remedies. I have ten days apparently.

[dragonreborn23]

Just got an e-mail saying it's my last warning before the pursue other collection remedies. I have ten days apparently.

Hehe, that is code for "You better send us our money now or we'll ...well we'll sell the debt to another collection agency and then whenever they get around to it they will call you and ask you to pay them!" LoL... I had something similar happen to me and you should know that debt collectors will try desperately to intimidate you into cracking. It sounds like you have a pretty solid court case so when they call to harass you, tell them that. Just say, "Hell yeah, let's go to court." 5 to 10 years later they might get around to it.

[magiic]

Is it bad to just tell them to full out fuck off when they start calling? lol

[dragonreborn23]

Is it bad to just tell them to full out fuck off when they start calling? lol

Hehe, well maybe not at first. If they want to negotiate a monthly payment (which they very well might) then I would try to do that. Otherwise, your credit score will be hurting. I'm just saying you will want to tell them to screw off though, believe me. I have researched it a lot, and I know that many creditors have to meet monthly quotas. That is often why they are such assholes when they call. Also, they will try to get you to say that you owe the debt over the phone. Don't admit to anything. Tell them to send any offer they have in mind in writing. The last time I spoke to a creditor it was over a $103 dispute and since I refused to pay it he said, "We'll see you in court." and then hung up. That was 2 and a half years ago.... I have bad credit, but they still haven't come after me for the $103.

[magiic]

Im curious to see how it plays out up here. I certainly will not say anything about owing money over the phone.

[Friend of Sonic]

Wow, how did you build it up so high? ;)

Anyways, unless you are selling big ticket items that you might get scammed on (ala Magiic) I wouldn't worry about it. As I discussed with you before (via PM) the interest I've made off the PayPal money market has more than made up for the occasional chargeback on a small item (I've had one from a buyer in Spain).
800 dollars a month savings. I should correct myself though. Before this month it was at 3200. Since I spent 1500 on a car and a bunch on video games as of late, it's down to 700. I plan on getting it back up though. I kind of got depressed I had to take the 1500 out for the car, so I kind of regressed into my old spending habits when the EBs sale hits, if that makes any sense. Kind of pissed at myself, but I do have a working car that's free and clear, and a bunch of classic must haves for PS2, Xbox, and Gamecube.
And Op, I'm so sorry to hear that. Every time things start to improve for you from how it was previously, you get fucked over again. Hope all works out for you eventually and permantly. :/