CAGcast #58: The Legend of Frank [Mobile/Archive]

CheapyD

01-10-2007, 04:18 AM

"Is Zelda overrated?", "Family Fun With the DS", and "Famitsu's Review Scores" are just some of the many topics discussed this week, along with video game shopping and industry news, your questions from the CAGbag (http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71382) and much more!

Don't forget to: http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/disturbed/misc/80x15-digg-badge-2.gif (http://www.digg.com/podcasts/CAGcast)
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http://media.libsyn.com/media/cheapyd/cagcast58.mp3

Show Linkage/Notes:
Intro music: Rygar (NES)

Blogs Sound off on the CAGcast [1 (http://thefanboys.com/2007/01/01/radio-killed-the-video-game-star/), 2 (http://www.1up.com/do/my1Up?publicUserId=5622789)] - iTunes reviews (https://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZFinance.woa/wa/addUserReview?type=Podcast&id=78311760)
Digg the CAGcast (http://www.digg.com/podcasts/CAGcast)
MySpace (http://www.myspace.com/cagcast)
CONTEST: CAGcast Flash Video (http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116670)

On Famitsu and paid off review scores (http://forums.selectbutton.net/viewtopic.php?t=476) [selectbutton]

New Releases (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6163883.html)

Oblivion on Gamerankings (http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/927345.asp?q=oblivion)
Zelda on Gamerankings (http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/928519.asp)
Wii Sells A Cool Mil In Japan (http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/wii/wii-sells-a-cool-mil-in-japan-227225.php)

Daigasso! Band Brothers (http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-9g-49-en-15-Daigasso%2521%2BBand%2BBrothers-70-d7p.html)

Gears of War Update Detailed (http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/gears-of-war/gears-of-war-update-detailed-226942.php)
CES: The Xbox 360 to get IPTV in '07, ships 10.4mil consoles (http://feeds.joystiq.com/%7Er/weblogsinc/joystiq/%7E3/72222889/)
Rumor: Xbox IPTV may not be so grand (http://www.xbox360fanboy.com/2007/01/09/rumor-xbox-iptv-may-not-be-so-grand/)
Guitar Hero II For 360, New Tracks Revealed, Distortion Petals? (http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200701/N07.0108.1808.46300.htm?Page=1)
Xbox 360 movie downloads outperforming Amazon rival (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=21991)

Analyst: $60 Pricing May Not Be Sustainable (http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14895)
SanDisk 2GB Memory Stick Pro Duo $37.99 after $20.00 Mail-In Rebate @ Newegg (http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123615) (martin8me)
The Warriors PSP $19.99 (Pre-order) at EB/Gamestop.com (http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123457) (Strider Turbulence)
Preorder Forza 2 for $50 @ Best Buy & Amazon.com (http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120600) (SlaughterX)
$10 off select PS3 games at Amazon (http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123524)

EA ‘Investigating’ Alleged Madden Porn (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4452&Itemid=2)
Ziff Davis Working to Sell 1up, EGM, GFW (http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2007/01/ziff_davis_game_division_up_fo.php)
Gamepro expo redubbed "E for All" (http://feeds.joystiq.com/%7Er/weblogsinc/joystiq/%7E3/71297815/)
Microsoft Will Add Video Games to Zune by July 2008 (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a5G_U4Wv8fZU)

CAGbag (http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71382)

Outro: Colecovisiion Atari Expansion Module (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6T7755ux2M)

Bonus pictures!

Taken at Yodobashi Camera in Shinjuku (Tokyo).

Outdoor display, the boxes are emtpy, but the yellow signs above them indicate they are in-stock at normal retail price.
http://www.cheapassgamer.com/ymij/ps3display.jpg

Behind the counter, the real deal waits for thier buyers.
Not sure if all are 60GB models, but at least some of them are.
As usual, no DS Lites or Wiis are in-stock.
http://www.cheapassgamer.com/ymij/ps3stack.jpg

thorbahn3

01-10-2007, 05:20 AM

I don't really agree with your viewpoint on reviews Cheapy. You see, the reviewer points out what he finds fun about it (which you the reader should know if you'll like) and what bugged them (which you might not even care about) . Because of that you the reader is suppose to decide if the game is for you, not I.

Also as for the Zelda scores, I think you just enjoy open ended action RPGs more. The fact that your wife is telling you what to do since you can't read the text might ruin it a bit for you too.

gunm

01-10-2007, 05:34 AM

Tagged!

Comparing Zelda to Oblivion is an apples to oranges discussion. They're two different game experiences. I do see your point about Zelda getting higher scores because of the name factor, and you're absolutely right, but that really doesn't take anything away from Oblivion. Let's put it another way--the audience that Zelda was designed for is going to agree that the game deserves those scores. They will not necessarily enjoy Oblivion more than Zelda. I would argue Zelda has a wider audience than Oblivion. Also, remember too that Oblivion's scores are really high and the game is critically acclaimed on it's own.

Basically, this "controversial" opinion is almost like Wombat's complaint about Famitsu. We all know Zelda is golden in most people's eyes and unless the dev team completely fucks it up, there's no way it won't get a glowing review. But the game really is fun, and complaining that it gets better game journalist reviews is meaningless because most people will disagree with some part of a game review regardless. If you can take the game review with a grain of salt, then you'll have to trust that most of us will too.

JohnnyDrama

01-10-2007, 05:37 AM

downloaded, will listen to later

CheapyD

01-10-2007, 05:37 AM

After we recorded, this was revealed regarding the Six Axis Emmy: Sony does NOT win Emmy for SIXAXIS, LIARS! (http://www.destructoid.com/sony-did-not-win-an-award-for-sixaxis-29164.phtml)

lilboo

01-10-2007, 06:43 AM

Oh thank God there's another one. Been really bored at work latley.

YAY Will listen to this later :D

yukine

01-10-2007, 06:57 AM

Eh, I don't think it's a fair comparison. In Oblivion you're practically creating the story yourself, you customize your own character, do what you want... and occasionally play the main story/quest.

In Legend of Zelda, it's more about this character named Link, and what happens to him and his surroundings. You're not in control of how things go, it's not open ended, and besides the exploration... I really wouldn't want it any other way. I have no desire in creating a balding middle-aged man named "Frank" to have save Hyrule.

At the end of the day, they are two outstanding games, but very different games. Not only creatively, but technically as well.

................................

And thanks to CheapyD for actually adding me back on the Wii, you disappoint me Wombat.

CheapyD

01-10-2007, 07:06 AM

yukine

01-10-2007, 08:12 AM

But who says Frank needs to be a "balding middle-aged man"?
Imagine a game exactly like Zelda, but all the names are changed, and the character designs are just different enough to avoid a lawsuit.

Is it still a 95/100 game?

Nothing sinister about it, but it seems that people have a special place in their hearts for the Zelda franchise and because "Zelda" is stamped on the game, people likely judge it to be greater than the sum of its parts. Well what I meant was, I'm accustomed to the Legend of Zelda gameplay, and I wouldn't want the franchise to become a game that's similar to Oblivion.

If this hypothetical game had the same gameplay as Twilight Princess, then yes... I consider the quality of the game to be around 95%/100%, regardless of what name is stamped. But I'm a bit different in that regard, I don't buy a game because of what name is on the cover, or like you said, judge it to be greater than what it is.

As far as other people go, it's probably true that just having the name "Zelda" on the cover has some influence on their opinion, but this holds true for many other franchises (Final Fantasy comes to mind here.) With that being said, it's difficult for me to disagree with the reviewers final scores, even if they are potentially inflated, as I more or less agree with them.

elitistmusician

01-10-2007, 08:16 AM

I've listened to about four or five episodes of the CAGcast so far, and I had some major qualms at first. This week's installment - despite some disagreement on a certain Zelda discussion (more on that later) - almost completely changed my mind. I'm sure you've heard praise such as "I love that it's just a couple of normal guys" before, but it really rang true this week, and such stark contrast to such podcasts as EGM Live and more traditional gaming shows is refreshing. Keep up the good work.

As for the "Legend of Frank" topic, I completely see where you're coming from. Typical reviews from typical game journalists are privy to franchise pandering - especially with Nintendo franchises. But this case of media bias is in no way due to Famitsu-style PR schemes. The cause is much more personal.

For many of said reviewers, the first games in their hands were first-party Nintendo titles. At the time, such games were innovative, well-polished and groundbreaking. For these reasons, Super Mario Bros., The Legend of Zelda, Castlevania and other NES classics were released to rave reviews from the few people reviewing games in 1986. These games became classics - became franchises - by their own merit as games.

Fast-forward to the Nintendo 64 era, when our beloved characters made impressive jumps to the third dimension. Super Mario 64 was an astounding leap forward for platformers and a great game. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time was presented on a massive scale and made Link a character gamers could really idolize. Sprites in 2D? Not so much. Ocarina created such a fanbase because being able to ride a horse, shoot arrows, throw bombs and wield a big ol' sword and have it look moderately real. For a ten-year-old boy, embarking on such an adventure was something never before seen in a video game. One ten-year-old picked up archery because of it, and - much to the confusion of his girlfriend - he is proud of that fact.

Today's reviews, especially the "9.3 out of 10" style of ratings, exemplify the editorial nature of game reviews as journalistic content. A reviewer is going to be affected by a franchise game or any sequel in proportion to his or her attatchment to the series. In other words, a fan of Ocarina of Time is goin to immediately feel at home with Twilight Princess.

But what about the game? Does The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess continue the franchise's familiar formula of dungeon crawling and field/town/lake exploring? Hell yes! But because Twilight Princess still manages to illicit the sense of adventure and scale as previous installments, afficianados of the series will be immediately inclined to enjoy the experience. The term fanboy is a misnomer in this case; the franchise has proven itself worthy before and past experience is a legitimate factor.

For Wombat: I never played Castlevania growing up. My first experience with the series was the DS title: Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow. I checked out some reviews at IGN, Gamespot, etc. when I got my DS and literally said to myself, "Alright, Castlevania got 9s and up. I've heard that name before. Vampires? Medusa heads? Sign me up."

I got home, unwrapped it and proceeded to enjoy some basic sidescrolling action with occassional upgrades to weapons. By the time I was near the end, I was completely bored with the title. It was a perfectly solid 2D sidescroller and I feel certain it would've enamored my 13-year-old self in an era where the genre was more the norm. However, I had a great time with games such as Viewtiful Joe, so the genre can't be at fault.

So game reviews are editorialized and flawed. That's no news, but reviewers aren't to blame for biased franchise reviews. If you want to blame somebody, blame Mario and his damn Italian charm. Or Zelda's fine ass.

Just kidding.

PlumeNoir

01-10-2007, 08:24 AM

yukine

01-10-2007, 08:30 AM

Downloading now.

Well trying to, anyway.

Gamespot: ~3 minutes to go.
CAGcast: ~82 minutes to go.

...Huh?

EDIT: It just jumped up to two hours - it looks like it'll have to wait until I get to work.

Strange... it took about 5 - 6 mins for it to download on my end. Maybe too many people are all trying to download it at once? :D

elitistmusician

01-10-2007, 08:30 AM

PlumeNoir

01-10-2007, 09:58 AM

Was listening on the way to work, but hit a nasty patch of ice on the freeway and almost spun out, so I'm going to have to go back and relisten to the first 30 minutes.

About the Flashcasts, Cheapy. Maybe I misunderstood (like I said, my attention was drawn elsewhere) and this is what you said, but would it be a better idea to have people do a two to five minute "promo" for the CAGcast every week? By this, I mean something like a "highlight reel" for the latest episode.

The only problem I see with that is timing. By the time someone gets done, it'll be time for the next CAGcast. Then it is more of a "What you missed last week on the CAGcast." (Now that I think about that more, I kinda like that idea...) I would be interested in even working on such a thing, now that I have a better handle on Flash.

Of course, this is probably what you meant whilst I was fighting icy flat beasts on the road...

Bazz

01-10-2007, 10:08 AM

But who says Frank needs to be a "balding middle-aged man"?
Imagine a game exactly like Zelda, but all the names are changed, and the character designs are just different enough to avoid a lawsuit.

Is it still a 95/100 game?

Nothing sinister about it, but it seems that people have a special place in their hearts for the Zelda franchise and because "Zelda" is stamped on the game, people likely judge it to be greater than the sum of its parts.
The fact is I love Legend of Zelda just because the great characters in the games itself. I love being Link he is my favorite character in the world for me to play as in an adventure/rpg game and being him alone makes the game have a better expreince to me. Well yeah a game with exactly the same in game mechanics wouldn't do as well just b/c the truth people just love Link. I do have to agree that this Zelda is a great Zelda game , but it just didn't bring something crazy new to the table like the transformation it had on the N64 with OOT.

Oh and last thing Btw Sony didn't win an Emmy for that exactly. They just put out a press release not mentioning Nintendo which made it seem like Nintendo didn't win , but guess what Nintendo did win. Here is 2 Links to story. Link 1 - GoNintendo.com (http://gonintendo.com/?p=11447) , Link 2 - Joystiq. (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/01/09/oops-sony-declares-sixaxis-emmy-emmys-say-uh-uh/)

Chris in Cali

01-10-2007, 11:21 AM

I didn't listen yet, but I do have to say this newest Zelda game was massively disappointing to me. I tried many, many times to make myself think it was the game it was hyped up to be, but it's just not. Zelda is by far my favorite franchise, but I've been less and less into the series since A Link to the Past, and Ocarina of Time.

The new one just isn't fun to play like the old ones used to be, and I really felt that the design was just big for the sake of being big, with really not a whole lot going on in the overworld. Also, some of the dungeons/temples puzzles we just plain retarded... like they designed them to be completely illogical to make the game harder and seem longer. Nintendo really dropped the ball in the music catergory in the game too.

I remember when you got a new Zelda game in the past you knew you would be hearing some new beautiful music that would be staying in your head for a long time to come, and would be an instant classic. I'm not even sure if this game has any new songs, and if it does I definitely don't remember them.

The first six hours of this game could have easily been cut down to one or two, and I actually think the game on a whole cut have been cut down and streamlined in many parts that were just too drawn out. The Wolf parts are annoying just like to boat parts of Wind Waker... great I get to go look for some Tear of Lights, fun!

I saw that Oblivion was mentioned.... to me that's the direction Zelda should have gone in after OOT.... obviously not that deep and RPGish, but somewhere in that realm. It should have become more open ended, this game felt extremely lineir to me. I want a game where you feel like you're questing, this one felt like I was getting yelled at by some shadow bitch the whole time. When was the last time you could walk into a store in a Zelda game and buy a truly interesting and useful items besides a bottle? Everything is so cookie-cutter, bombs, hearts, and potions. The original Zelda was way cooler, the blue candles, rings, keys... totally awesome.

The series is really getting stale for me, which sucks because A Link to the Past and Ocarinca of Time are my two favorite games. I keep waiting for a Zelda game to sweep me off my feet like those did, but Wind Waker, and Twilight Princess definitely are not those games. I think I seriously enjoyed Minish Cap more, and I know I enjoyed Link's Awakening, and Oracle of Seasons/Ages more.

orntar

01-10-2007, 11:31 AM

i have apocalypse!

its on my tl.

callmesteam

01-10-2007, 11:44 AM

I'd like to see CAG Flash videos every week. I don't have the talent to create them, but I'd love to watch them.

Also... Cheapy, you emailed me that I won a secondary prize in the Child's Play raffle. I emailed my address, but haven't heard anything. Did you receive all the winners information?

blandstalker

01-10-2007, 11:57 AM

Imagine a game exactly like Zelda, but all the names are changed, and the character designs are just different enough to avoid a lawsuit.

Is it still a 95/100 game?

Nothing sinister about it, but it seems that people have a special place in their hearts for the Zelda franchise and because "Zelda" is stamped on the game, people likely judge it to be greater than the sum of its parts.

I think there's some truth to this, and I've thought so since Ocarina of Time. I think I would phrase it differently, though: I think people put up with things in Zelda -- poor gameplay mechanics, boring segments, and outdated or simplistic ideas -- simply because it's Zelda.

I think Zelda falls apart with all the bits that have nothing to do with the main adventure (note: I am still Wiiless and have not played TP). Fishing (Ocarina - ugh), horse riding (Ocarina, double ugh), sailing (Windwaker), and the various stupid bottle/fetch quests all drag down the game. I also thought all of them were essentially sub-par mini-games that were actually unpleasant to play.

That's not to say that any Zelda game as a whole is bad. They're not, and even without Zelda wallpaper, the games would still be in the 80s to 90s. It's hard to hate on Zelda too much because of it's annoying bits, because there's so much that's done very well. Every Zelda game amazes in some way, which is in itself a feat. How many games can you say that about?

Interestingly, there's both evidence in favor and opposed to the idea that Zelda gets special treatment for its Zeldaness. Okami didn't get the super-high near-perfect ratings that Zelda always does, and I consider Okami to be Zelda done right, without most of the B.S. that tends to drag down Zelda outings. If Okami were sumi-e Zelda, I have no doubt it would have scored 10s across the board.

But, that said, critics and gamers still loved Okami. So the idea of Zelda, even with all its limitations, is still popular even without the Zelda paintjob.

ArthurDigbySellers

01-10-2007, 12:05 PM

Comparing Zelda to Oblivion is apples to oranges in the extreme. It's like comparing Mario Kart to Gran Turismo. Sure both games are fun in their own right, but they are based on completely different gameplay ideologies.

The difference in numerical scoring of the games, your main complaint, is a problem with reviews, not the games themselves. Number reviews are just a basic guideline on how good or bad a game may be, but they are poor indicators of how games stack up to either other. There are too many other factors that come into play to say that Oblivion should have scored higher than Zelda. Why should it score higher? Because the graphics are more realistic, because it is open-ended, because it had downloadable content?

Some people actually prefer a more linear game with the optional sidequest here and there over a massive open-ended affair where you forget what you were doing from day to day. I know I fall into that category and while I wouldn't rate the new Zelda a 10, it is definitely one of the best games I have played in a long time.

I will agree that the beginning of the game dragged a bit, but the pacing is just about perfect once you get past the first dungeon. I also didn't mind the slow start as I was still getting used to the Wiimote/Nunchuk setup. I don't know where Cheapy came up with the idea that "you don't do a whole lot," but that is so far off base that I don't even know where to start.

This is the first Zelda game where I felt like I was doing something different every few hours or so. The dungeons have been brilliant, some of the best I have seen in a Zelda game, and my only real complaint is that overall it has been pretty easy.

I also can't imagine playing the game without being able to read the dialog and only hearing "gay" or a summary of what was said for each of the conversations from my wife. Why play the game at all if you don't even know what is going on? At that point, the game is just a jump from dungeon to dungeon with fetch quests thrown in here and there.

Lastly, if the game was called The Legend of Frank, it frankly wouldn't have sold as well or been reviewed as well. Link is a character which gamers can identify. He, in all of his incarnations, has a back story that we all know, interacts in a world that we are familiar with, and has a similar goal in each game. It would take "Frank" a couple of stellar outings to build up that image. Link was an unknown character once too.

shipwreck

01-10-2007, 12:09 PM

Lastly, if the game was called The Legend of Frank, it frankly wouldn't have sold as well or been reviewed as well. Link is a character which gamers can identify. He, in all of his incarnations, has a back story that we all know, interacts in a world that we are familiar with, and has a similar goal in each game. It would take "Frank" a couple of stellar outings to build up that image. Link was an unknown character once too.

That was pretty much what Cheapy was getting at.

joeljermon

01-10-2007, 12:29 PM

If you think Zelda gets high scores only because of its name, what about otehr game series like Halo, GTA, and Final Fantasy? Why single Zelda out? Note, however, that while the scores of all these series may be slightly inflated, they are also very good series. It's certainly not a whole point's boost. If TP were "Legend of Frank," I don't think it would have gotten 10s - but it would have still gotten a few 9.5s, and still very few scores below 9.

I think Oblivion has some serious flaws out of the box and you need the PC version with mods for it to be a great game...I won't get into that, though, because I'd rather not derail this thread.

But really, the games are very different. Your complaint "it's worse than Oblivion because it's not open-ended" is ridiculous. They've different types of games. And Twilight Princess does have a lot more sidequests, minigames, and extra things to find than most linear games. But really, I might as well complain that Gran Turismo sucks because it doesn't have weapons like Mario Kart or blistering speed like Burnout. There are some aspects of Zelda games that wouldn't work with a completely open-ended Oblivion-sized world, such as the interesting structured dungeon designs and puzzles that the series is known for (probably my favorite part about Zelda games, actually).

Also, you criticize Twilight Princess for being too similar to previous Zeldas. But Oblivion isn't exactly anything new and revolutionary, either. It's the fourth Elder Scrolls game, just the first one to get mainstream attention. Did you ever play Morrowind? Oblivion is fairly similar to it.

I listen to several gaming podcasts, and you guys are the only ones who don't think Twilight Princess is great. In fact, you're the only ones who have even mentioned Oblivion when talking about it. That tells me that your opinion is in the vast minority, and that very few people even think of it as very similar to Oblivion.

Shion

01-10-2007, 12:31 PM

ArthurDigbySellers

01-10-2007, 12:48 PM

That was pretty much what Cheapy was getting at.

As stated above, any established franchise (that is good), is going to get a slight numbers boost in a review. The name only goes so far though. Look at the Tomb Raider series. The first few games were pretty critically acclaimed and very popular and then the series just went to shit. If all of the Zelda games over the years hadn't been high quality, the Zelda name wouldn't hold the prestige that it does. The numbers boost doesn't come because the game has the word "Zelda" in it, it is because the Zelda games have been some of the best games made.

The main point I was trying to get across is that you can't compare numerical scores between games that are so different. I'm sure Oblivion is a great game, but to say that it should have scored higher than Zelda is strange, as games, like other forms of art, are completely subjective - and thus don't lend themselves well to numerical scores.

trip1eX

01-10-2007, 01:25 PM

Man Oblivion was just too boring. IT's quantity over quality.

Zelda has much more engaging and focused dungeons and that's why I play a Zelda game. IT's pretty awesome when I get to the next dungeon in Zelda and have to figure out the puzzles (which are more than just push this lever here to open a door btw) to get through it. Very engaging.

I'd say the Zelda name hurts it as much as helps it. Sure some folks automatically praise it because it's ZElda, but at the same time many folks write Zelda off for the same reason. Believe me if this game came out on the 360 and was called Legend of Frank then 360 nuts would priaise it.

I couldn't get into Oblivion. Again it's draw is the quantity thing. 40 classes. 50 spells. 60 skills. 10000 things to pick up. Tons of dungeons and npcs. And you know what? 99% of all that stuff is lame. But some people like that. Hey I can do anything. Oblivion though gameplay wise is much more straightforward and boring and repetitive.

Well instead of playing Oblivion I went to Home Depot and talked to the NPCS there and bought a weapon (hammer) and some ammo (nails) and went and replaced a few shingles on the house that I own.

That to me felt like Oblivion only more realistic.

Hex

01-10-2007, 02:03 PM

Great show guys... But Cheapy, $130 for a mic? That one fellow in the CAGBag might be right about revoking your name...

lokizz

01-10-2007, 02:08 PM

i can see why peopel would say this past zelda was overrated especially after beting it and feeling seriously let down towards the end. i really think that the delay on the game wasnt just to use it as a way to sell wii's but also because nintendo saw that the game was lacking in certain areas so they tacked on the last few dungeons as a way to lengthen the game.

some of the weapons from those dungeons were cool but overall most of them werent used more than a few times before you just left them on the side or until you did the cave of ordeals challenge.

and wtf is with that lame ass ending? ive never been more dissappointed in an ending in any game ever. i wont drop it in here in case some of you havent beaten it yet but if that ending didnt leave you wondering if you missed something or wtf is this all there is then something is wrong with you.

and im curious if anyone else here was dissappointed in the dragon boss on that last dungeon and the last dungeon too. all of the bosses in the first set of dungeons( though way too easily beaten) were awesome to see and interesting in the usual zelda sense of going in new ways but the last few bosses sucked. especially the dragon and maybe this is because i had finished shadow of the colossus before id played zelda and in that game they have this sweet flying dragon boss battle in a dessert that will blow you away with howreal and fun and challenging it is but zeldas dragon looked crappy and to me looked liek something a kid would draw in art class.

dont get me wrong the first 2 thirds of the game i loved it and loved everythign about it but that last 3rd drug on forever to the point where i just wanted to finish the dungeons to finish them not to see what would be there and to see the bosses i just wanted to get them done already. and the final battle with gannon was too easy and laughable too.

and whoever the reviewer was that complained about how dull the towns were wasnt kidding they are so damn dull. at least in oot or MM you had alot of fun game you could play and try out to get things or just for fun and yeah TP had some games but they werebt fun to play and you only did them to get the item or ite,s you know you could get to help you along in your quest. aside from fishing i dont see anyone trying these mini games more than twice unless like me you did the balloon pop mission to get money to afford the magical armor.

all in all im not excited or looking foward to the next zelda installment so i can say unless the wii drops to 100 bucks or lower or i get one for free im done with nintendo consoles except for the occasional game or RE4 on the GC.

usickenme

01-10-2007, 02:29 PM

I don't see what Oblivion's score has to do with the Zelda score. If Zelda is overrated, it should be overrated based on it's own merit as opposed to "It's not game X". That is simply a ridiculous criteria. Where do you stop?

"Zelda sucks because It is rated higher than SSX and SSX has much better snowboarding."

Even within genres there is plenty of variety. The only legit standard of comparision is previous games in the series. I'm aware that it is human nature to compare things that have a similar feel...that's fine but it is no way to review a game (or claim a game is scored too highly). I'm not a huge Zelda fan. Wind Waker was my first 3D zelda, I've only finished 2 of the 2d Zeldas. I have to say I LOVE the new zelda. Not because it is the same old green clothed elf we've played. I love it because of the compelling world it creates.

BIG5

01-10-2007, 02:39 PM

I'm not going to talk about Zelda, but I completely agree with Wombat's assessment of Castlevania Portrait of Ruin. More of the same is a great thing when you're talking about maybe the best 2D franchise left. I'd also love to see a 2D Castlevania on a next gen console, but I'll take what I can get.

mik

01-10-2007, 02:48 PM

Really enjoyed the Zelda discussion. My cohorts and I had a similar discussion on our latest show--he had Zelda at the top of his games of the year, and Oblivion was at the top of mine.

Your comment about it being hard to go back to Zelda after playing Oblivion is right on the money. I understand--and don't mind--that the graphics have taken a hit on the Wii vs. the 360. But there are a number of areas where Zelda is still so archaic that could be easily remedied. The fact that Oblivion's dialogue is all spoken, for example, makes it immeasurably more immersive.

The counter to the argument (and the one that my friend offered) is that fans of the series are so enamored of the formula, that straying from it too far would create an enormous negative reaction. In the example above of voice acting for the game, he felt that since people have been playing Zelda for nigh on 15 years now, they have a solid concept, in their head, of what Link sounds like. Adding voice to the character would run the risk of alienating all those fans who think, "Hey! That's not what Link is supposed ot sound like!"

I suppose that the negative reactions to the look of Wind Waker would support that point of view. It's a shame, because without some pretty radical reinvention, I'm totally finished with a series I used to (and still want to) love. I think the franchise deserves more.

Aberforth

01-10-2007, 02:59 PM

I'm sorry but this show is lacking something very important...

MORE DEMON TENTACLE PENIS!

(Can I say penis?)

trip1eX

01-10-2007, 03:05 PM

Yeah maybe Zelda's dungeons should be like Oblivion's too. A bunch of random dark hallways with rats in them and 2 levers to push for puzzles. :P

GF_Eric

01-10-2007, 03:16 PM

One of the very first things my friend said when we started playing Oblivion is "This is how the next Zelda game shoud be". That really says it all, I think.

I have been disappointed with Twilight Princess as well. For many of the same reasons other people have said. I honestly think I would have liked it better if they would have just left it a GameCube exclusive. The graphics are bad (but would have been excusable on the GC), and I don't feel that the Wii controls really add anything to the experience. It is still a good game, but I'd have to side with Wombat and say it is probably one of my least favorite Zeldas.

PanzerNinja

01-10-2007, 03:32 PM

I got the Wii and Zelda for Xmas and I honestly believe that had I bought these myself I'd be disappointed. TP is a good game, certainly better than Wind Waker, but my favorite is still Zelda: A Link to the Past. I got about 10 hrs into TP and went back to Rainbow Six Vegas and Gears of War. On comparing TP to Oblivion, I think its kinda like comparing a kid to its parent. Obilivion is what I imagine Zelda could turn into when it grows up.

evanft

01-10-2007, 03:43 PM

Comparing Zelda to Oblivion, is, IMO, complete bullshit.

joeljermon

01-10-2007, 05:06 PM

Obilivion is what I imagine Zelda could turn into when it grows up. For being the "child's" version of Oblivion, Zelda sure has much better dungeons. That's one of the most important parts of a Zelda game, the meticulously designed and structured dungeons, and it couldn't be done in a completely free-roaming game (just look at Oblivion's dungeon design). Saying that Oblivion is monstrously overrated because it has worse dungeon design is just like Cheapy saying Zelda is bad because it's not free-roaming like Oblivion. But the design generally doesn't bother people, because Oblivion is about a huge world to explore rather than tightly designed individual areas. Zelda is the opposite in this sense. There is a good amount of optional stuff to explore, but that's just something extra to do - the dungeons are more the focus, rather than the exploration. I'm not really an Oblivion fan because I think it has some design issues, but I can see why some people like it - the size and scope of the game is impressive.

Really, the games are quite different. Each does its own thing and does it well. Here's another analogy from PC gaming: Civilization IV is a methodical, thoughtful turn-based strategy game with a lot of emphasis on economics, diplomacy, and city-building and with combat as only one component. Dawn of War is a very fast-paced and gory real-time strategy game that focuses almost completely on the battles. Both games are technically in the same genre, but they both have very different design goals. It would be silly for me to say that Dawn of War is overrated because it lacks the economic depth of Civilization IV, or that Civ IV is overrated because the combat isn't as exciting or visceral as in Dawn of War. Likewise with Oblivion and Zelda.

Also, I still don't think it's fair to say Zelda is a rehash when Oblivion is very much like previous Elder Scrolls games. Just because most people didn't play Morrowind doesn't change teh fact that Oblivion plays pretty similarly, thoguh the combat is better.

Oh yes, and Twilight Princess is my favorite Zelda game. I played through Ocarina of Time, probably my previous favorite, about a week before I got TP, and I think TP is better in nearly every way, with the possible exception of music and story (TP's story is better in some ways, worse in others).

trip1eX

01-10-2007, 06:26 PM

Hey good summary. I wanted to say that.

Yeah about the rehash thing too. IT's not just the previous Elder scrolls games, but old pc rpgs too like Wizardry and Ultima and the like. Those were free roaming type games from 20 years ago. IT's just that not alot of console boys have played these types of games.

youruglyclone

01-10-2007, 06:36 PM

good things about the ps3 - by a ps3 owner

-it collects dust at a fantastic rate
-fingerprints are always visible so I can prove it's mine if stolen

honestly is cheapy I think most of the points he's made has been valid. frankly companies make mistakes, and just because you point them out. it doesn't mean you hate the product.

frankly cheapy's said it before...if you're dropping X amount of dollars you want it to be the best product to own. No one likes siding with a loser.

frankly the zelda name doesn't make it a goldmine or a critical darling...wand of gamelon? faces of evil anyone?

"Anyhoo" that's all I got to say about that.

nesfan8222

01-10-2007, 06:54 PM

another nice lengthy and good cagcast. Although I cant agree with wombats comment on how big brain academy is much better than brain age. I think that the games on bba are good and the game is a great multiplayer game, but I always found myself playing more of brain age and felt i got more of a value from it with the sodoku and seeing how other people made the drawings from memory. There both fun games for different reasons

bobthecat23

01-10-2007, 07:36 PM

hey cheapy i quess u and wombat were right about
LEGEND of frank ppl would probably review like there bitch and give it 6s everywereand i think if the ps3 would pick up some steem soon o and from know on im like gonna most of the time not gonna pay games at full pric3 39.99 or less cuz the cheapness has gotten to me o and btw why does every one hate the ps3 most ppl that hate it dont even have one o and gran turismo graphics are way better then pgr3 in imp cant wait for great cagcast keep up the good work.

Chris in Cali

01-10-2007, 07:53 PM

Wombat

01-10-2007, 08:02 PM

The reason why I feel the comparison between TP and Oblivion is valid, is that they both have similar review scores and topped many game of the year lists. The comparision, at least what I was going for, is what warrants the scores not comparing the content, why is oblivion worth a 9.5 and why is TP worth a 9.5 and why are they both worth such high praise.
Personally I think the dungeons in TP are amazing, maybe some of the best in the series, but the in-beween feel flat for me and felt mostly like padding to turn a 15 hour game into a 35 hour game. That for me was a problem.
Oblivion as we all know was huge for me, that was mostly for the amount of character options, each play although the story never changed felt different because what that character could do, but on the other hand the dungeons for the most part are, well, uninspired yet addicting. The sheer amount of place to go was a challenge.
Also as my last point if you think TP is the better game you are right, and if you think Oblivion is the better game, you are right, too.

Mulliga2

01-10-2007, 08:11 PM

Oblivion is part FOUR of the Elder Scrolls series. It's a well-known RPG franchise that many reviewers might be inclined to give higher scores just because of the pedigree. Morrowind and Daggerfall are pretty well-known hits, after all.

I loved me some Zelda. I could see someone rating it 8.5, I could see someone rating it 9.5 - like you said, it's very subjective. I loved the dungeons and thought the game didn't have too much padding (the statue quest and the recovery of Ilia's memory were kind fetch quest-y). I also thought Oblivion was leagues better than Morrowind, if only for the better quest and teleportation systems.

What's really telling is that Zelda has Oblivion-style dungeons as well (big long caves filled with enemies and treasure, basically) and they are pretty lame since they don't have any puzzles. Which goes to show moving to an Elder Scrolls-style game might not be the answer.

joeljermon

01-10-2007, 08:21 PM

I didn't feel like mcuh of the game was padding, and I didn't mind the wolf gameplay. I REALLY enjoyed riding Epona around, slashing and shooting at enemies on the field. Epona had a great sense of speed, I loved aiming the bow with the Wiimote, and controlling her just felt right. That added a lot to my game time.

crazytalkx

01-10-2007, 08:23 PM

Oblivion is part of the Elder Scrolls. Zelda TP is well part of the Zelda series and from the reviews they both seem to be compared to past titles in their own respective series and in terms of gameplay it is apple to oranges. Okami is much more comparable to Zelda.
I don't see anybody complaining about Gears of War's review scores when the main campaign itself is extremely repetitive and doesn't really do anything new with the genre apart from having great graphics.

Trakan

01-10-2007, 08:55 PM

I don't see anybody complaining about Gears of War's review scores when the main campaign itself is extremely repetitive and doesn't really do anything new with the genre apart from having great graphics.
That's because while not inventing anything new, it executed every element in the game damn near perfectly. You're one of the few I've read that found the game repetitive. Personally I beat the game 3 times and didn't really grow sick of it. Gears' review scores aren't based entirely on its single player campaign either. The multiplayer is second only to Halo. It took Halo 2 out of the number one spot. It's been the top played game since its launch.

I still say Halo is better, but Gears is the only game that's been able to keep me away from Halo for this long.

PyroGamer

01-10-2007, 09:13 PM

I like the Cagcast Mountain video the best, by far. It was simply amazing. I haven't laughed so hard in a while. Plus, it brought a bit of a tear to my eye.

Simply fantastic editing, wonderfully put together, and a great concept.

Too bad it didn't win. It was definitely the best.

trip1eX

01-10-2007, 09:24 PM

Also as my last point if you think TP is the better game you are right, and if you think Oblivion is the better game, you are right, too.

If I say Cheapie is better than Wombat, am I right just as much as when I say Wombat is better than Cheapie?

j.elles

01-10-2007, 09:26 PM

First let me say I love the CAGCast more each time I listen to it.

Now I think what you didn't say or didn't take into account when you and Wombat talked about Zelda is different people like different genres of video games.

I for instance don't like shooters that much. I think the games are good and kind of fun to play but I don't think there great. I've played GRAW, Rainbow 6, Gears of War, Resistance, etc... as I am an avid gamer with lots of friends who are the same.

I play most games but the games I like the most are Adventure, Strategy, RPG generally story driven games with lots of exploration and things to do.

I didn't think Resident Evil 4, GRAW, Gears of War, Rainbow 6, and games like that in general are above an 8 at extreme best. Thats me though.

I think Zelda is fun because it mixes genres and appeals to lots of people. Adventure, Puzzle, Action, Dungeon Crawler, Flight elements with that dragon thing, and RPG. A number of people who like all kinds of different games are fans of Zelda and love it.

Now as a PC gamer I know lots of people who think Halo and Halo 2 are average FPS at best. And thats them being nice. Does that mean people who gave Halo and Halo 2 9's and 10's are crazy fanboys. No of course not.

It's not that Zelda TP is the best game ever. Its that so many people who are fanboys of this game are people who love all kinds of different genres as well. Except for fans of shooter games or games where the story is skipable or unimportant. People like that I just don't understand.

In the end I think its that people play games for different reasons. I personally think theres to much to do in Elder Scrolls: Oblivian and it detracts from the game as it can be hard to find or get to the parts of the game that I like. I've played the series since Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall. And I think the game also is to much of the same. Except for better graphics and a few small additions its the same game as all the previous ones.

I think so many people expected Zelda to be the Best Game Ever that it hurt the game a lot.

Can you contact me? I'd like to be on the next CAGCast or something. I think I have a bit to contribute.

CheapyD

01-10-2007, 09:26 PM

evanft

01-10-2007, 09:29 PM

No.

j.elles

01-10-2007, 09:52 PM

I'd like to see more video of you cheapy. I think its worth pursuing. I'd watch it.

felixlighter

01-10-2007, 10:02 PM

In the videogame world, taking a shot at The Legend of Zelda is like kicking the Pope in the balls during Midnight Mass; You're going to get a reaction and it might get ugly. Personally, I completely agree with CheapyD. I've slowly been losing interest in Zelda since Majora's Mask.

I absolutely loved Ocarina of Time when it was released but it doesn't feel like the Zelda formula has really evolved since that game. They've added a feature here and there but those features usually didn't make the game any better and in most cases it made the game worse.

Take the Windwaker sailing for instance. It got so tiresome traveling in the game, that I would have to put my TV in picture in picture mode and watch a television show while I traveled between dungeons. You gain the ability to warp to designated spots on the map later on but it was very limited and it still forced you to sail from a warp portal to your final destination. Sailing was a huge part of that game; it was key to the story and you spent a large part of your time doing it. It was a miserable major feature, and that feature alone would have killed any other non-Zelda game but it still managed to get a 94.7 average review on game rankings!

It seems like the reviewers give the game a pass on any bad aspects and they only focus on the parts they got right. I think reviewers know, if they alienate the Zelda fans with a negative review, they could hurt their readership/viewership and I'm sure that influences their final scores. Just take the 8.8 score Gamespot gave Twilight Prince as an example. 8.8 is a great score for any other game but because it was a Zelda game it was huge controversy.

And by the way, for those arguing that The Elder Scrolls' franchise is just as popular and established as Zelda, it isn't even close. If I asked my mom to name a videogame she would immediately say Mario or Zelda. If you asked her about The Elder Scrolls she would be completely clueless. You know a game is big when it passes the mom test.

felixlighter

01-10-2007, 10:09 PM

Yeah, the CAGcast mountain was really good as were a few others.
I know most of this conversation here is about Zelda, but I'm also wondering about everyone's thoughts on the CAGcast Video Remix idea.

Do you think it's worth pursuing?

I think it's worth a shot but the amount of effort it takes to put one together may be overwhelming for most. I could see it coming down to the same 3 or 4 people each week but as long as they are entertaining, like the ones submitted for the contest, I don't see what it would hurt.

PlumeNoir

01-10-2007, 10:10 PM

Yeah, the CAGcast mountain was really good as were a few others.
I know most of this conversation here is about Zelda, but I'm also wondering about everyone's thoughts on the CAGcast Video Remix idea.

Do you think it's worth pursuing?

Already answered...maybe as in [insert Superfriends voice] "Last week, on the CAGcast..."

Other than that, I can see it falling flat.

It's nice to see a way of getting the CAGmunity involved, but what is the video remix's purpose? Amusing summary? A video 'cast to add to the audio on iTunes?

mik

01-10-2007, 10:12 PM

I don't see anybody complaining about Gears of War's review scores when the main campaign itself is extremely repetitive and doesn't really do anything new with the genre apart from having great graphics.
I think Gears was pretty over-reviewed, too. Seems like both those games (Gears and Zelda) had their scores penciled in before they were ever released.

sinewav

01-10-2007, 10:21 PM

I also feel Zelda:TP was overrated and was going to get a 9.0 minimum just for the fact that it is a Zelda game. Kudos to anyone who speaks out on this.

As to the question of why in Guitar Hero II for 360 the guitar controller is not wireless Red Octane in an earlier statement was quoted in saying that the wireless technology is propietary to Microsoft and they are not allowing any 3rd party devices to use it, hence the lack of ANY 3rd party 360 wireless controllers on the market, so Microsoft is the one at fault here sadly. Unless Microsoft licenses their wireless tech it seems we'll be stuck with tethered guitars until someone comes out with their own wireless technology aka AntCommandos on PS2. If I find the source with the RedOctane quote I'll post it.

joeljermon

01-10-2007, 10:24 PM

And by the way, for those arguing that The Elder Scrolls' franchise is just as popular and established as Zelda, it isn't even close. If I asked my mom to name a videogame she would immediately say Mario or Zelda. If you asked her about The Elder Scrolls she would be completely clueless. You know a game is big when it passes the mom test. It's not as well known as Zelda, but that doesn't change the fact that Oblivion is also fundamentally to its predecessors. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing for a series, as long as it doesn't become Megaman - which I think Zelda is in no danger of doing, especially since the next one will be built for the Wii from the ground up and will probably the controller in completely new ways rather that could not be done on a normal controller, rather than just adapting old controls to the Wii.

CheapyD

01-10-2007, 10:52 PM

As to the question of why in Guitar Hero II for 360 the guitar controller is not wireless Red Octane in an earlier statement was quoted in saying that the wireless technology is propietary to Microsoft and they are not allowing any 3rd party devices to use it, hence the lack of ANY 3rd party 360 wireless controllers on the market, so Microsoft is the one at fault here sadly. Unless Microsoft licenses their wireless tech it seems we'll be stuck with tethered guitars until someone comes out with their own wireless technology aka AntCommandos on PS2. If I find the source with the RedOctane quote I'll post it. I know, but surely Microsoft realizes the earnings potential here and would consent to a wireless guitar, especially if they get to share in the accessory royalties.

One of two things will happen:
1) The game ships with a wired guitar, and a few months later, a wireless guitar is released.

2) The game ships with a wireless guitar.

I really can't imagine a wireless guitar not being released at all.

inubu

01-10-2007, 11:05 PM

Yeah, the CAGcast mountain was really good as were a few others.
I know most of this conversation here is about Zelda, but I'm also wondering about everyone's thoughts on the CAGcast Video Remix idea.

Do you think it's worth pursuing?

As a CAGcast video alumni (is it okay that I claim that title?) I have mixed feelings. On one hand, I enjoyed doing it and enjoyed viewing what others did. On the other hand, to have them produced on a weekly basis seems to me to take away from some of the uniqueness of the event. What made it cool was that it was the first time it had been done -- and nobody knew what to expect from anyone else. My best guess is that if you have them produced on a weekly basis, and under a weekly deadline, the entries will appear in much fewer numbers and have a lower quality than what you got this first round.

Only speaking for myself (though I'm sure the other contestants had similar situations) the production time just to get the clips edited down from one 90 minutes show and put back together in a logical sequence took about 4-5 hours. Then preparing the graphics, creating the timeline, aligning the audio, and synching all of that to the animation -- and my animation was pretty simple -- took about triple the amount of time the audio editing did.

I hope that none of this sounds like complaining, because I enjoyed just about every moment I put into making it, but to have to produce something like that in a one week deadline (and still have the high quality of the entries you got this last time) seems like a pretty tough challenge. Every quarter maybe? Every month?

I don't know what the solution is, though I would like the video challenges to continue. Obviously you want it to be more than a yearly event, as do I, so I'll be interested to see what the others who participated have to say about the weekly video idea.

CheapyD

01-10-2007, 11:20 PM

Thanks for the feedback inubu.
In case it wasn't clear, the videos need not be based on the current CAGcast.

jollydwarf

01-10-2007, 11:22 PM

Not that I'm one to talk, but there are some mammoth posts in this thread, so I'm not reading all that.

Instead, bullet points* for Cheapy and Wombat that may or may not have already been mentioned and consequently expounded upon:

1.) Cheapy, I think the Zelda reviews are a combination of many things that you mentioned, but I sincerely think there's also the reviewers considering the Nintendonuts/loyalists, and factoring in self-preservation. No, seriously. This ain't fuckin' Ratchet & Clank or Kameo. Maybe they don't get whacked by a guy in a Tingle costume, but I think there's something to them fearing the consequences (and overflowing Inbox) if they give a new entry in the franchise any less than a "10" (9.5. ABSOLUTE minimum). Gamespot? Pretty ballsy, pretty commendable, pretty freaking crazy.

2.) Oblivion and Zelda aren't any more of a valid comparison in terms of scores than Zelda and Soul Calibur. Hell, the second is more 'valid', as Link has appeared in both series. They're all excellent series that do different things, even if the aesthetic makes them look vaguely similar at times.

3.) Larry "Major Nelson" Hryb is a diva. I can hear it in each and every one of his podcasts. I've never liked him, but I deal with him to listen to his guests, not his incessant pimping of his "Dee-eth Lite". That he probably doesn't care for CAG surprises me not at all, as he's probably not a big fan of the whole mentality that the site is based on, i.e. never paying full price for games, not playing along nicely with the 'managed message' and the "BESURETODRINKYOUROVALTINE" marketing that they repeatedly work over 'the kids' with. You guys are better off without him.

4.) I've read Game Informer, actually got suckered into a subscription last Spring, and I have to say, the Western gaming mags are working extra-hard to catch up to the Famitsu M.O.

5.) The new Castlevania has a real anime-teenybopper aesthetic to it, which is obviously to pander to, well, that crowd, but it's a fair trade-off for quality 2-D gaming. If Konami ever does a proper console Symphony of the Night sequel, I might buy two copies, just to 'do my part' to support what publishers probably perceive as fiscal suicide outside of the DS/GBA. Hell, an original 2-D Castlevania on the PSP could redeem the system.

6.) It's clear that Epic is hiding from consumer demand behind some mandate from Microsoft which obviously is not exactly 'dogma'. To me, this all comes down to a philosophical issue (which in turn becomes a commercial issue), because they'd rather piss people off this way than by having fans endlessly bemoan sandbagging teams and people doing everything they can to ascend in the rankings. 50/50 on them giving in down the road.

7.) Why do gaming "analysts" continue to get any sort of attention from anybody, especially the game-playing gaming media??

*--Okay, bullet paragraphs.

EDIT: I really can't imagine a wireless guitar not being released at all.

This is what I call the "I'm George Lucas and I'm Never Releasing the Original OT Again" syndrome. You will be proven right sooner than later.

PlumeNoir

01-10-2007, 11:41 PM

As a CAGcast video alumni (is it okay that I claim that title?) I have mixed feelings. On one hand, I enjoyed doing it and enjoyed viewing what others did. On the other hand, to have them produced on a weekly basis seems to me to take away from some of the uniqueness of the event. What made it cool was that it was the first time it had been done -- and nobody knew what to expect from anyone else. My best guess is that if you have them produced on a weekly basis, and under a weekly deadline, the entries will appear in much fewer numbers and have a lower quality than what you got this first round.

Only speaking for myself (though I'm sure the other contestants had similar situations) the production time just to get the clips edited down from one 90 minutes show and put back together in a logical sequence took about 4-5 hours. Then preparing the graphics, creating the timeline, aligning the audio, and synching all of that to the animation -- and my animation was pretty simple -- took about triple the amount of time the audio editing did.

I hope that none of this sounds like complaining, because I enjoyed just about every moment I put into making it, but to have to produce something like that in a one week deadline (and still have the high quality of the entries you got this last time) seems like a pretty tough challenge. Every quarter maybe? Every month?

I don't know what the solution is, though I would like the video challenges to continue. Obviously you want it to be more than a yearly event, as do I, so I'll be interested to see what the others who participated have to say about the weekly video idea.

Only if I can claim CAG Video Alumni as well! ;)

I agree totally with the above. Although, only combing through one cagcast wouldn't be as daunting, it still takes the time to edit and splice. (Or enhance or alter levels and sound quality as I know I had to do a great deal of. Damn Skype!)

And then the animating was what killed me, having never made anything in Flash before. I learned how NOT to do a lot of things. I made mine because I was off work for the last week of '06, so I had more time than I usually do. (I also have a need to know Flash and this was good practice with a deadline to fight.) And I STILL didn't have time to do new drawings like I had intended.

Not including the times I was listening to the CAGcasts and taking notes, I would guess I spent 40+ hours on mine (even if you couldn't tell). Editing and arranging the audio and editing it down was one thing - I didn't realize how many problems I would run into doing the animations.

If I was going with my suggestion recap theme, I image I could do one in, rough guess, 20 hours - now that I have a better handle on it - for 2 or 3 minute segments. The problem with this is...well...I have a life and other projects that I am involved in. (I also seem to notice a small human racing by me from time to time.) This time would be lessened once I have made my own avatars with their own set of animations and mouth shapes (but that would require the initial overhead of drawing then beforehand.)

Like Inubu, I don't want to sound down, but I have to be realistic but it was a lot of fun and would love to do more. I could probably do one a month, but weekly would be a killer and just not possible for me. Plus, I also don't think I could commit to "I'll do every third week and so-and-so will do the third week."

I think monthly is doable, if I devote an entire weekend once a month.

Chacrana

01-10-2007, 11:43 PM

Feels like it's been forever since the last CAGCast... can't wait to finish d/ling this one.

Michaellvortega

01-10-2007, 11:44 PM

First of all, great job putting together this episode.
Wombat not asking for free stuff good+
Cheapy with his drug talk, bad :( -

Zelda: TTP - I don't care if people hate me because I said it, the game is stale. We have been getting the same damn compass and the same damn dungeon map the same damn way every game since the N64. LOZ sells on name brand alone and that's that. Was it a horrible game? No. Was it a perfect 10? FUCK NO! People that think LOZ TTP is 10 or NEAR 10 are nostalgic mother fuckers.

The Madden with porn on it was not a legit Xbox disc, that's why it had porn on it. This was discussed in a thread here already.
Pics of the fake xbox DVD
http://www.abc4.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=43b5c535-4bd2-4da5-8145-1dc63a92faa2

thread
http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122435&page=6&highlight=madden+porn

Major Nelson=Famitsu, both are PR covered bull shit, sure sometimes they come through with something interesting but for the most while their worth is Nil.

j.elles

01-10-2007, 11:48 PM

I've played Elder Scrolls since 1995. To me Oblivian and Morowind before it felt like nothing more then a facelift.

I was comparing it to Zelda because people said the same thing about it in comparison to Ocarina.

I don't like Oblivian that much because I have played hundred of hours of the game for the past 10+ years.

For Zelda though I still feel the magic. I find the game to be great. And personally I don't want the game to change.

If it did something to fundementally change the game it is it wouldnt be Zelda and I would hate it.

I love Adventure games. I love RPG's. I love Strategy games. I love games with good storys in general. My favorite games this past 2 years have been Heroes of Might and Magic 5. Dreamfall The Longest Journey. Shin Megami Tensai Devil Summoner 1 and 2.

I just don't think shooter games and such are that great. And for people like me who like those types of games more then the action shooter less story driven type games I feel like Zelda TP is a great game and one of the best you can play period.

If you want to see Zelda change and become something else. Like how drastic Redident Evil changed with 4. Stop buying the game all together. Because I for one don't want Zelda to switch genres and become something else.

jollydwarf

01-10-2007, 11:54 PM

Nintendo is in a Catch-22 with the Zelda franchise. It miraculously made the transition to 3-D with its integrity and excellence intact, but where else to take it now? If they revolutionize it, they're going to hear about it from their reactionary fans. If they don't 'fix' what isn't 'broken', they're going to be penalized by many for being stagnant. It's the same dilemma for Square Enix and Final Fantasy. It's going to be the same issue for Bungie.

Some franchises are 'comfort food'. Zelda is one of them. Some are inherently based on pushing envelopes, like GTA. I like the balance of experiencing both kinds.

Ikohn4ever

01-11-2007, 12:04 AM

Well first off your whole frank rant works with every game. If you had a first person shooter with a broken story mode and good online multiplayer and called it Alien Battle Fest for the Planet. It wouldnt have sold as well as something called Halo 2 so I dont think you can just play the name game with Zelda. It works with every major franchise.

As for the Oblivion comparison, it just doesnt work. Oblivion is a completly Open Ended game that is meant to do what you want and continually add content to enhance the story. Zelda is much more of a linear game. You cant be a bad guy, you have to save the princess, and you gotta beat the bad guy. Linear gameplay is completely different than nonlinear gameplay. Of course you feel more into Oblivion, you can do whatever you want whenever you want . Zelda is a story based driven game, no matter what you do, you will have to complete a certain task to move on.

Finally, comparing a game because of same score is an invalid comparison. So if Tony Hawk 2 gets a 9.0 and Phoenix Wright gets a 9.0 we could compare them on the basis of score? That just doesnt make any sense at all.

j.elles

01-11-2007, 12:19 AM

I've played Elder Scrolls since 1995. To me Oblivian and Morowind before it felt like nothing more then a facelift.
I was comparing it to Zelda because people said the same thing about it in comparison to Ocarina.
I don't like Oblivian that much because I have played hundred of hours of the game for the past 10+ years.

I dont think you got what I said. I've been playing Elder Scrolls for a long time. Why is Oblivian the same as Daggerfall which came out 10 years earlier. People don't want the game to be changed fundementally.

They want it to be tweaked, enhanced, expanded, and streamlined in certain areas so it's more fun. To me Zelda did this in Spades as Oblivian did over Morrowind. I don't want Zelda to be more of an action game. To me Zelda fills my adventure fix which is sorely lacking in this age of gaming.

And Oblivian is not an adventure game. The storys all right but a LOT of the quests were IN Daggerfall and Morrowind and I've played the series for so long I can see the errors and holes more then have fun with the game.

But Zelda feels to me like an adventure game. And other then fan made games there aren't that many adventure games.

Quest for Glory. To me Zelda took over the hole that old Sierra PC game left. They actually are kind of similiar in many ways. But Action Adventure games are not as common as shooters and such and I for one want them to be.

Zelda DOES NOT need be more of a shooter or an action game, Other games need to have more exploration and be more like an adventure game. Its my favorite genre and I can't get my fix very regularly at all.

So f%ck @#!. If Zelda isn't an adventure game at its core in the future I'll hunt down all the people who made it change.

Walt Jay

01-11-2007, 12:34 AM

Good job, as usual guys.

I agree with your viewpoint on Zelda (and other beloved franchises for that matter). Imagine if Twilight Princess was rebranded as Dark Cloud 3 with the exact same everything. It would lose points for no camera control, modest (even for a GC game) graphics, no voice acting at all, no orchestral soundtrack, and an incredibly boring (and long) beginning to the game. It'd probably end up in the 80% review score range, which is still good, but I highly doubt it would end up at 95%. It's like the vast majority of reviewers are unwilling to deduct points for certain established brands. But, double standards are a part of everyday life and reviews are no exception.

FriskyTanuki

01-11-2007, 12:42 AM

About Cheapy's comparison of Zelda and Oblivion, and that brings up the large difference in genres, I have to agree on one point. Legend of Zelda: TP is not as good as the scores suggest, though it all depends on the reviewer. If they're looking for more Zelda in a newer package, then this was an amazing game for them. That seems to be a good portion of the media from what the reviews say.

However, I'm guessing some of us expected the game to at least change the formula a little bit and feel fresh. It feels like the same game that Nintendo's been putting out for ten years now in a new, shinier package and that just doesn't really cut it. The game seems to punish exploration (tiny wallets) while emphasizing it (digging for rupees, golden bugs, chests by the dozens, etc.) and it's not helping the game. There's only one upgrade to the wallet (holds up to 600 rupees) before it's unlimited and that just doesn't cut it. Add in the lack of shops and items to spend it on and you've got a recipe for a disappointing game. The wolf parts aren't bad, but I'm not looking forward to the next section where I have to play as the wolf.

Castlevania's another game like that where the new ones don't do much that evolves the series. The GBA ones weren't much different from each other besides being brighter than CotM and having the metrosexual heroes.

Guitar Hero on the 360 won't be online, as they've been quite adamant in saying that the lag would kill any enjoyment that the game would've given you. Playing it in multiplayer in person is a great experience, moreso than doing it over the internet. Surrender is in the PS2 version, I believe it's in the first set of songs. I hope you guys don't end up spending more than $100 for the game, but I'd expect a $90 price tag whenever it releases in a few months from now.

That Madden porn thing is BS as the disc was a burned disc with a crap cover that some dumbass in California scammed a CC to return it. The photos that were released of the disc show the Madden 07 name being cut off by the hole in the middle of the disc, so it's hard to believe all these people though it was an authentic disc.

Good show as always.

j.elles

01-11-2007, 12:45 AM

First you put to much stock into reviews. I've played Dark Cloud 1 2, Radiata Stories, and Chrono Cross. I hated all of them. Not saying they were bad though its just my opinion. I didn't like a lot of things in it that other people probably do. I don't want the games to change to conform to my tastes I just know now not to buy them because they dont suite my tastes.

Some games and genres dont need inovation. They just need more renfinment. Judge games on genre and play style. To many people want all games to merge into some wierd super genre. Do you want a puzzle/shooter/adventure/RPG/Sports/Racing et al. game. I sure don't. If you don't like the type of game Zelda is fine. But dont go saying it should change into something its not.

I turn off voice acting in all games. I hate it. Its always bad. I hate camera controll, its just one more thing to worry about. I sold Tenchu, Shadow of the Colosuss and many other games because of bad camera issues and most of those had camera controll. I had none of those issues with Zelda and it didnt have it so I dont think thats a good complaint. I am in an Orchestra profesionally and I loved the music in Zelda so whatever.

j.elles

01-11-2007, 01:00 AM

Castlevania's another game like that where the new ones don't do much that evolves the series. The GBA ones weren't much different from each other besides being brighter than CotM and having the metrosexual heroes.

Thats a good one. They tried to change Castlevania with the 2 N64 games and the PS2 games. All of them were hated by fans and didnt sell that well at all. Then they decieded to do a new 2d game that was like the ones that sold better and guess what? The GBA and now DS games sell fantastically and make Konami more money then the 3d console ones.

In the end if you're sick of a game you once loved a lot its time to try a different genre. There are a lot of games out there. And many would argue that the portable Castlevanias were innovative. They were just innovative in there genre. Adding new ways to make weapons with the soul system. Or the 2 player element in the new DS game as well as the portraits that lead to different places.

Spoilers

Id say the same for Zelda. Its got that marble game in the fish shop, a greatly expanded and fun fishing mode, Flying segments, Scripted Horse fighting segments, The wolf thing which I thought was cool and fresh ( cant beat leaping and hanging on to peoples necks to kill them), the addition of every ganon fight from all the other Zelda games at the end was a nice touch that surprised me, the temple in the Sky felt completly new to me for one, the new spinner item, the ability to kill people with the arrows hanging from walls and the ceiling in the second dungean.

All of those things and more felt new to me just like a lot of elements in other series are fun. A series is a series for a reason. People want more of the same.

Look at new super Mario Bros. Thats sold 4 million copies in Japan alone and continues to sell extremy well worldwide.

Drensch

01-11-2007, 01:44 AM

Re: Legend of Frank. Do Zelda or other big franchises get some leeway with review scores? Perhaps. But, ask yourself this, do titles like Zelda (Especially TP on Wii with the wiimote) get extra scrutiny and criticism that other games wouldn't? Absolutely. Had Tp been released by a random 3rd party at Wii launch the game may have gotten even better scores, as Legend of Frank wouldn't have had to live up to both Zelda's and Nintendo's reputation.

Think about how Halo 2 both gathered great acclaim, and also took a lot of shit over changes and new stuff that wasn't in Halo. If Halo 2 was released by someone other than Bungie for Xbox, and it was called Battle or the Ring starring Sergeant Tuff. It would have gotten better reviews than Halo 2. Why? Because Sgt. Tuff didn't have to live up to Master Chief and Bungie's legacy.

The monster franchises that have a legacy of greatness didn't dupe reviewer's and gamers into buying them because of their name. They had to start somewhere. And that legacy lives or dies based on how they live up to that legacy. Nintendo by and large is the best at keeping their legacy spotless. Granted there is a mythic quality that people imbue onto games and movies and what not. The Star Wars movies are another example. The first Trilogy was by in large, a hoaky set of blast em ups. But they were very fun and very different. They spend 20 years marinating in peoples mind's and being over analyzed and blah blah blah. Then Eps I-III come out and get some shit because they aren't necessarily sweeping tragedies and emotional epics. Problem is, Eps IV-VI weren't either. They just seemed that way because the legacy became bigger than the films really were.

Sonic was a franchise with a legacy for the 1st part of the 16 bit age, many placing it above Mario. But, reviewers didn't accept it when the games got bad. Tomb Raider was very similar as well, but reviewers didnt cut it slack when it got bad. Many a franchise has taken a tumble due to one sub-par game.

The bottom line is, is that Zelda is a damn good game any way you look at it. It may have received a bump from reviewers via nostaligia. But I'd argue that just as many reviewers over scrutinized it just because it was Zelda. Trust me when Halo 3 hits, it will be the same. Some people will bust one because it's Halo. Some people will nitpick over the smallest shit, precisely because it is Halo. Legacy is earned.

4nik8tor

01-11-2007, 07:56 AM

The proof that the Zelda name doesnt automatically give it a free pass is found on those crappy CD-i games.

CheapyD

01-11-2007, 09:28 AM

Any of you guys read Aeropause?
http://www.aeropause.com/archives/2007/01/the_legend_of_f_1.php

Matshelge

01-11-2007, 09:49 AM

I have been a long time listener, however I have never registered on your forum, as I seldom get any European deals (and even less Norwegian ones), and such never saw any need.

However, your last episodes comment on Zelda VS Oblivion made it rather urgent that I give my internet opinion about your show. (Yes, I know its worth a lot)

When talking about Zelda, you compare this game to Oblivion as well as older versions of itself. However, I did not hear anything about Oblivion compared to its former incarnations.
Why is does Zelda have to stand up to all it’s older games and outperform them, while Oblivion gets the free slip and does not have to compete with it’s older versions? (The Elder Scroll series) Should we not ask why Oblivion is better then Daggerfall, Morrowind or Arena rather then why it is better then Zelda? Since, if you have played all these games (and I have) Oblivion is clearly a letdown gameplay wise against Morrowind, and size and grandeur it’s lacking against Daggerfall.

Zelda on the other hand, many agree that they have made the “perfect Zelda” (not the perfect game I might add, but the perfect version of Ocarina of Time’esk Zelda)

So in your “gameranking” talk you should keep a consistent idea on how to rate these games. Should they be rated against other of the same general genre, or should they be ranked up against there former incarnations? Having one set of rules for Zelda, and then another for Oblivion is just wrong.

Other then this minor point where I thought you where way of base on both my favourite series of games I did really enjoy the show. Wombat sounded more up-to-date and added a lot more to the show then he usually does. Your latest show was a double team supreme rather then “host and co-host” setup that I usually get from you guys. Keep it up.

yukine

01-11-2007, 10:30 AM

It looks like this "Legend of Frank" discussion has gotten us a handful of new registers.

I had no idea there were actual listeners to the CAGcast besides CAGers. I guess it just goes to show you how popular the show is becoming.

Good job, Cheapy and Wombat. :applause:

dadeisvenm

01-11-2007, 12:01 PM

Wow Cheapy... your sounding either a little blonde or old. :D Wombat caught you on the CAG BAG and that was funny.

Um.. a few things.

I do love your show and I have to write up a iTunes review.

You are right about the current state of "game reviews". I'll take it further and say that there really needs to be an accountabilty for reviews in the sense that games should be graded on their framework. I remember play Mario 64 and saying, "Wow this game is great, but I played this already in JumpingFlash! pr the PS1." and when Mario Sunshine came out "Wow... this is like Mario 64... oh well." Reviewers often write blank checks for franchises like Mario, Madden, NBA Live (no longer the best NBA game), and Zelda. If the Framework is basically the same (Metroid Prime 2, LoZTP, Ghost Recon, Ranbow Six, Metal Gear, etc...) the only factor for warranting a higher score is gameplay. If nothing new is brought to the table, then the score declines and gameplay also declines.

Wombat... awsome as usual. I was tihnking, "Wow. That would be awsome to be working for THE CAG Wombat", but then I realized "I guess we can't be talking about games all day." bummer.

Cool cast. Keep it up.

Wolfgame

01-11-2007, 07:21 PM

THANK YOU CHEAPY, I have always hated how much praise zelda gets for just being a zelda game, the bottom line is if the games didnt have link in them they would be cast aside very quickly due to be a completely subpar series all together, It's difficult to knock a series like that simply because your dealing with a doublebladed sword, for every honest criticizim you bring out about zelda your infuriating a massive fanbase who drinks nintendos mediocrity.

usickenme

01-11-2007, 08:01 PM

It looks like this "Legend of Frank" discussion has gotten us a handful of new registers.

Now we know the real reason for the discussion about Zelda.

CheapyD

01-11-2007, 08:07 PM

Now we know the real reason for the discussion about Zelda.My guess is that you are kidding, but the reality is that this discussion came about while Mrs. Cheapy and I were playing Oblivion during her New Year's break. In our quest to finish the game (and get my remaining nerd points), I asked her if she thought it would be tough to go back to playing Zelda when we were done.

The conversation went on from there and I added it to the show's outline so I wouldn't forget.

But seeing how sucessful this topic was, look forward to next week's discussions:
1) Why Mario games are overrated
2) Why the Wii will fail
3) Metal Gear Solid is garbage
4) Resistance is better than Halo
5) Everything sucks

MysteryMan2333

01-11-2007, 08:59 PM

5) Everything sucks
Can't wait to hear the argument for that one. Some thoughts on this episode:

1) Regarding the comments about being a cheap ass gamer, I think the fact that you're spending $40 for a $60 next gen game does qualify you as a cheap ass gamer. We're in the beginning of the next gen cycle. I think waiting for a good game to drop to $10 in price a year after the coming out is current gen mentaility. Oblivion has been out almost a year and hasn't even been reduced to $40 yet. So, Cheapy is still the OG when it comes to being a 'cheap ass gamer'... however, him spending $130 on a microphone proves that he is not a 'cheap ass'. If it were me, I'd say the current damn mic is fine.

2) I completely agree that Zelda would simply not be as highly regarded if it were called The Legend of Frank. I'm not really sure if people really 'anticipate' a review, but Zelda, Halo, Resident Evil, etc. are all reviews that I believe people tend to look forward to. You don't want to read that your favorite series of all time just received an 8.5. Of course that's a great score, but if that's your favorites series you'd probably feel like you got stabbed in the back. Therefore, I think reviewers definitely try to appeal to the audience. I'm sure Gamespot got plenty of hate mail saying they were fools for giving Zelda an 8.8... most reviewers probably don't want to deal with the insanity that is a fanboy.
However, I don't think that the series hasn't really developed is a valid point. As Wombat pointed out, if you like a game a certain way, you're perfectly content with it staying that way. People are creatures of habit. I fully expect there to be a bit of a backlash when I go to CheapAssGamer and find the sites main page completely changed. However, 95% of the time, after a month later I completely forget that a site was just revamped. Cheapy, are you planning on letting people see the new site before you modify it, to get their opinion? Or are you just going to spring it on people and shock the world?

3) I don't really have an opinion one way or the other regarding the Video remixes, but it sounds like it would be a lot of work to maintain.

yukine

01-11-2007, 09:07 PM

My guess is that you are kidding, but the reality is that this discussion came about while Mrs. Cheapy and I were playing Oblivion during her New Year's break. In our quest to finish the game (and get my remaining nerd points), I asked her if she thought it would be tough to go back to playing Zelda when we were done.

The conversation went on from there and I added it to the show's outline so I wouldn't forget.

But seeing how sucessful this topic was, look forward to next week's discussions:
1) Why Mario games are overrated
2) Why the Wii will fail
3) Metal Gear Solid is garbage
4) Resistance is better than Halo
5) Everything sucks

You forgot 6)PS3 > Xbox 360/Wii. :lol:

PlumeNoir

01-11-2007, 09:32 PM

variablesunknown

01-11-2007, 11:28 PM

Cheapy,
I think you totally hit the nail on the head with your Zelda argument. Six months ago my 360 crapped out right in the midst of my major Oblivion addiction. I played Windwaker while I waited for a new 360 and the whole time I kept thinking, "this game is good in its own way but it just cannot compare to Oblivion!" Comparing Zelda to Oblivion, in my opionion, is like comparing playing in a small fenced in playground vs. playing in Central park (Oblivion even has muggers and drug addicts!) Once you have experienced how limitless and beautiful Oblivion is it is hard to take Zelda seriously. I aplogize for any flamebait, just one man's opionion.

usickenme

01-12-2007, 12:49 AM

My guess is that you are kidding, but the reality is that this discussion came about while Mrs. Cheapy and I were playing Oblivion during her New Year's break. In our quest to finish the game (and get my remaining nerd points), I asked her if she thought it would be tough to go back to playing Zelda when we were done.

You would be correct sir. While other websites stoop to such mechanics to enhance traffic, I'm sure you are just 2 gamers talking.

Since you were documenting the conversation...what was her answer?

I will say this about the 2 games. When, I hit an enemy in Zelda, it feels like I am hitting an enemy.

bmulligan

01-12-2007, 12:58 AM

But seeing how sucessful this topic was, look forward to next week's discussions:
1) Why Mario games are overrated
2) Why the Wii will fail
3) Metal Gear Solid is garbage
4) Resistance is better than Halo
5) Everything sucks

It sounds like Dennis D Fat is getting a creative credit for the next CagCast.

But, if I may be frank, I'm glad you had the courage to confront the Zelda political machine. Not that this free pass isn't given to every established, overrated franchise, but with Zelda, speaking ill of it in mixed company is like desecrating a sacred gaming shrine, even if the game really does suck. Most shy away from controversy by unconcious choice, claiming they simply don't like Zelda games. Glad you had the danglies to take a stand on this average game that never fails to obscure it's mediocrity with it's own built-in hype wagon.

Many have rightly compared it to all other previous Zeldas, but while playing in the first few hours of TP, I came to realize I had already played this game at the Gamecube's launch. It was called Star Fox Adventures. It looks like they may have even used the same graphics engine. Both are good looking and semi-entertaining games, yet Fox gets the shaft becuase his name isn't Zelda. You were spot on in your analysis.

I also like the idea of a video CagCast with CAG made flash videos, or just some sort of feature on the site. I also think you should open up the content requirements to anything videogame related, not just based on audio from previous CAGCasts.

abhinav

01-12-2007, 06:17 AM

SEND WEED!
I was lawling so hard man that was awsome. This is pretty funny, good stuff.

FriskyTanuki

01-12-2007, 06:30 AM

javeryh

01-12-2007, 09:57 AM

I just started listening but the fact that Wombat has started yet another job is great. You've got some balls, my friend, and I have no doubt you will eventually find what you are looking for. Mrs. Wombat must be wicked patient.

bmulligan

01-12-2007, 10:01 AM

:-s I didn't know the GC launched in Sept. of 2002. The more you know.

That's when I bought my Cube and I thought it was a launch game, or close to it. Whatever the case, the gameplay is almost identical to a four year old game, as are the graphics, with tacked on Wii controls.

I had high expectations for this game and keep wondering what the extra year and a half development time was used for. Nintendo had a chance to break the franchise from it's gated community, but I guess it's easier to paint a fence than to build a new one.

I can't wait for them to reissue Mario Cart, Mario Baseball, and Mario Tennis with tacked on Wii controls for $50 a pop. They've got a good scam going. It's almost as arrogant as Sony's belief that 40 million gamers would pay $600 for any new Sony game console.

futhamucka

01-12-2007, 11:31 AM

I can't wait for them to reissue Mario Cart, Mario Baseball, and Mario Tennis with tacked on Wii controls for $50 a pop. They've got a good scam going. It's almost as arrogant as Sony's belief that 40 million gamers would pay $600 for any new Sony game console.

The main difference here is that all the Nintendo games you mentioned were excellent titles. Sony is charging $600 for a console that plays the same games you can play on a 360, which costs much less. Of course they will bring out a killer app, though I have yet to see anything that makes buying a PS3 make sense.

I don't have a Wii, and I've been playing Zelda on the Gamecube. I've really enjoyed it so far (i'm at the water temple). I do think that the zelda name does automatically raise scores, but it also raises the comfort level with the game. you know how a zelda game is going to work when you start playing, and then it's just up to the story to draw you in. No zelda game is beyond criticism, the Wind Waker (which I thought was fantastic) was given a hard time by a lot of Zelda fans, and the timed game system in Majora's Mask was very frustrating.

jkam

01-12-2007, 11:59 AM

I think Zelda may suffer from the Tony Hawk syndrome. Zelda was such a strong franchise to begin with that living up to itself with each new game gets harder and harder. When you go in a different direction with the franchise Zelda II or Wind Waker you get people complaining that it isn't what Zelda should be. I think even from the beginning of Twilight Princess's development they mentioned how it was the next Zelda that gamers were asking for. This was basically a new Ocarina Of Time, the favorite Zelda game to many.

As for the Sphinx argument it does somewhat rely on the characters and the worlds they reside in. I think Link and Hyrule look a little more appealing than the world and characters created for Sphinx. I think when people look at a Zelda title next to Sphinx they would go with Zelda. It's not to say that the game is bad at all but I do think its obvious people gravitate towards the Solid Snakes, the Marcus Fenixs, and the Dante's quicker than a fairly generic character. I think some really good games could get passed on but hey we know better right?

Personally I don't like first person games so I can't comment on Oblivion or the greatness it contains but as for Zelda I really like the game. I was among the people who thought the Wii controls would be annoying as hell. After playing the game for awhile there was a point where everything started to really click and I found myself more immersed in this game then I have with Zelda in awhile. Although the story is minimal it did draw me in more as well. I am currently on the 6th dungeon and as of right now my score would be somehwere in the 9-10 range. I think if anything people feel let down because they know what to expect. I think a good question that is similar to the Frank one.....would be to ask if no other Zelda title ever existed then how would you feel about Twilight Princess?

mriswyth

01-12-2007, 12:17 PM

I’m not a huge Zelda fan. I’ve played “The Legend of Zelda”, “Link to the Past”, “Ocarina of Time”, “Wind Waker”, and “Twilight Princess.” Right now (about 45 hours in), this is probably my favorite Zelda. Usually by the time that I get 15 hours into a game I’m beginning to think that it better wrap up soon or I’m not going to make it to the end. In this one, I’ve just finished “Arbiter’s Grounds” and I feel like I have played the most unique dungeon ever. To me, this game is a 10.

I haven’t played Oblivion, but I did try Morrowind and couldn’t really take it. It is too big for my time and my life anymore. (I should say that I played Elder Scrolls: Arena when I was in High School and back then I loved it). I’m the guy who has cut every single blade of grass in Zelda. I must have and do everything in the game, and if getting and doing everything becomes too repetitive to me I lose interest very quickly. Morrowind was a 2 or 3 in my mind, because I couldn’t deal with it.

CheapyD’s point about similar unknown games getting the raw deal is applicable, however. My wife is a Zelda fanatic. She has played everything except the CD-I games and most of them multiple times. She also LOVED Sphinx, Beyond Good and Evil, Fable, Jade Empire, and Azurik from the last generation. She also played most of these games more than once. Some of these games got blasted in reviews, but she thinks they were just as good. If the comment above about “Star Fox Adventures” is true, I would love to pick this up for her. Anyone else agree with that statement?

"More of the same" isn't always bad. My preference is First/Third Person shooters, and I think most people would agree that online is usually what makes those games stand out and last, but has anything really changed since I first connected with my friend's modem to play Doom?

Are the scores just “fanboy pandering”? Maybe, or maybe many of the reviewers were like me and just really thought this was finally the Zelda game that got everything right.

mykevermin

01-12-2007, 12:44 PM

But, if I may be frank, I'm glad you had the courage to confront the Zelda political machine.
:rofl: I think you meant the "Zelda-Industrial-Complex."

I agree with your overall points, of course - but I must applaud Nintendo's brilliance with the release schedule of Twilight Princess. When it was announced that the GC version would be coming out several weeks after the Wii, people were aghast. Now, it's painfully obvious that it was strategically done to avoid accusations that TP is no different than many of the upcoming Ubisoft games that are treated with disdain for being "an old game with tacked on controls."

It's regarded as a "Wii launch title" for the very reason that it came out on Wii first, regardless of the fact that the *identical game* can be played on last generation's hardware. I've often suggested that Sony should have had Square-Enix make Final Fantasy XII a PS3 launch title, but keep the same graphics. It may be a cynical take on TP, but I think it's an accurate one.

While arguing that Zelda gets a free bonus on reviews (anywhere from 1-4 points, as a general guess), it's interesting to see how few people want to acknowledge that TP is an *old* game used to sell them *new* hardware. Is it fun? In my opinion, very much so. That doesn't change the nature of their marketing approach, of course.

chlupe

01-12-2007, 01:18 PM

As you yourself mentioned earlier on the podcast before the Zelda discussion - people like different things. MOST REVIEWERS like Zelda. Most EVERYBODY I've spoken to - consumers, not reviewers - like Zelda. You happen to not like it as much, and that's unfortunate for you.

As another note, some people DON'T like open-ended games. Some people like having their goals set out for them. There are quite a few people - and mind you, not ones who slobber all over Zelda - that strongly hate Oblivion and would rather play Final Fantasy X.

I challenge you to discuss whether or not Halo is overrated, and whether or not Halo 3 would sell well if it was called "Ring Planet". If I played Legend of "Frank", with the same amount of craft and care, or Super Japanese Story (Final Fantasy) or Gritty Shooting Game (Gears of War, without all the hype), I would give these the same accolades. If reviewers are guilty of piling on points for favorites, you're pretty much vulnerable to the same thing. Wombat with Marvel, for instance. And that's the way things go.

Just my two cents.

blandstalker

01-12-2007, 01:25 PM

Many have rightly compared it to all other previous Zeldas, but while playing in the first few hours of TP, I came to realize I had already played this game at the Gamecube's launch. It was called Star Fox Adventures. It looks like they may have even used the same graphics engine. Both are good looking and semi-entertaining games, yet Fox gets the shaft becuase his name isn't Zelda.

Um, no.

I was one of the first in this thread to say that I think Zelda is overrated and why. I'm saying that so you don't think I'm some Zelda fanboy. But Star Fox Adentures is just bad. Really bad.

The core game of Zelda is not bad. Tired, maybe, and limited, but not bad. The core game of Zelda is also polished and appealing and fun. Star Fox Adventures is none of these things, except perhaps tired. It's pretty, I'll give it that. But the game is horrid and boring.

Though in one way, you're right to bring up Star Fox Adventures. Rare developed plenty of non-licensed things before. Why did this one require Star Fox wallpaper? The game is such a turd that they realized the only way anyone would buy or recommend it is that it had Fox and company on the box.

Interestingly, at the time, the game reviewed well. But it's been my impression that it's quite despised now. Partially because "It's Not Starfox", but also because it's bad. Really bad.

The Wikipedia entry for it has an interesting note:

Infamously, UK publication NGC magazine awarded the game 73%, which some speculated was due to bitterness over Rare's sale to Microsoft. Several issues later, NGC published a score of 98%, which readers could cut out and place over the original if they chose to.

73% is generous in my book, but closer to what the game deserves than the typical glowing reviews it got. But look at the reaction it got. People expected the game to be great, and when someone said it wasn't, they complained. Too bad: they could have been warned.

If the comment above about “Star Fox Adventures” is true, I would love to pick this up for her. Anyone else agree with that statement?

No. If you love your wife, you'll buy her something else.

Indiana

01-12-2007, 01:43 PM

You mention the Six axis controller getting an emmy and the Wii mote not getting one. You have to look at the influence that Sony has compared to Nintendo. Sony has a lot of pull in the movie industry to "make things happen."

PyroGamer

01-12-2007, 03:09 PM

That analyst doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

Saying $60 isn't sustainable judging from one fucking game?

PyroGamer

01-12-2007, 03:25 PM

Okay, a quick review of this episode:

Wombat seemed like he was having an absolutely miserable time. The CAGcast feels like it's dragged on by Cheapy, who pauses now and then to politely give Wombat an opportunity to comment, Wombat, unfortunately, rarely has anything to say.

This cagcast was actually slightly unnerving to listen to. Near the end Wombat finally got kind of into it, but by then it didn't matter.

Long pauses, nothing to say, nothing funny, nothing usefull, definitely nothing insightful.

I think I might stop listening to the CAGcast because of this episode.

You guys have been fantastic in the past, but this week was dissapointing. Maybe you guys need to completely revamp your outline, make the CAGcast shorter, make sure what you you're both opinionated about what you're talking about, etc.

mriswyth

01-12-2007, 04:13 PM

No. If you love your wife, you'll buy her something else.

This made me laugh. :D Thank you for the insight.

CheapyD

01-12-2007, 09:41 PM

whoknows

01-12-2007, 10:53 PM

My mom said it was great!
So did my mom!

AshesofWake

01-13-2007, 01:31 AM

CheapyD asking for weed = classic :rofl:

bmulligan

01-13-2007, 01:41 AM

Okay, a quick review of this episode:

Wombat seemed like he was having an absolutely miserable time. The CAGcast feels like it's dragged on by Cheapy, who pauses now and then to politely give Wombat an opportunity to comment, Wombat, unfortunately, rarely has anything to say.

This cagcast was actually slightly unnerving to listen to. Near the end Wombat finally got kind of into it, but by then it didn't matter.

Long pauses, nothing to say, nothing funny, nothing usefull, definitely nothing insightful.

I think I might stop listening to the CAGcast because of this episode.
...

Something tells me you haven't actually listened to past CAGcasts.

Nothing useful or insightful? I guess Frank's overrated adventure, famitsu's charade, testimonial reviews of castilevfania, big brain academy, some import music game for the DS (which sounds very interesting), analysis of Xbox Live's internet HD streaming scam, and Major nelson's place in the game propoganda machine isn't insightful enough for you then perhaps you'd prefer an entire hour of the HYPE WAGON instead.

Good grief!

Wombat

01-13-2007, 10:50 AM

Something tells me you haven't actually listened to past CAGcasts.

Nothing useful or insightful? I guess Frank's overrated adventure, famitsu's charade, testimonial reviews of castilevfania, big brain academy, some import music game for the DS (which sounds very interesting), analysis of Xbox Live's internet HD streaming scam, and Major nelson's place in the game propoganda machine isn't insightful enough for you then perhaps you'd prefer an entire hour of the HYPE WAGON instead.

Good grief!

in my mind you will always be a man not a number

blandstalker

01-13-2007, 03:19 PM

some import music game for the DS (which sounds very interesting)

This is Daigasso Band Brothers. I wish I could listen to the CAGcast, but I'm on dialup.

I was just playing this game. If you at all like music games, enjoy DDR-type games, or have interest in musical scores or arrangements, this is a truly awesome game. Apologies if I am about to rehash what was in the CAGcast, but this is a great game that doesn't get the love it deserves. I love it as much as Ouendan, though in different ways. And that says a lot.

The closest thing I can compare it to is the homebrew PSP Revolution, which was essentially DDR using the PSP pad and buttons. But it was kind of limited and broken in a lot of ways.

Daigasso is like this, but much more interesting. You have to press buttons in time with the music to play notes. But each musical selection can have up to 8 different instruments, each with their own parts. You get to play everything in the song, from brass to strings to drums and it's all just like you would have in a real musical score.

Anyone who has played in a band or orchestra will immediately appreciate this. You don't have to be able to read music to play the game, but if you do, you get a bonus: completing Easy mode gets you a musical score editor, which lets you score 8 of your own tracks, with up to 8 parts per song.

This is a real editor, too. I still haven't figured out if there's a good way to look at all the parts at once (I don't think so) which makes it a little clunky, but it's a very impressive and powerful tool. It's not a toy. You could score all the music in the game with it and it's easy to use.

I can't say enough good things about it. Getting through Easy mode will take a long time, as there are a lot of songs, each of which have a lot of parts. Then you get Hard mode, with all new parts and a much more difficult set of button presses. There's a great selection of music, from J-Pop (including a couple of songs that will be familiar to Ouendan players) to classical to Nintendo songs, including Mario, Smash Brothers, and Fire Emblem.