I believe we can save Working Designs [Mobile/Archive]

Wolfpup

01-13-2007, 02:16 AM

Fuck it. I love WD's games, but they dug their own grave due to piss-poor business decisions.

Maybe. Or maybe Sony dug it for them. Doesn't matter what your decisions are if Sony's petty and won't approve stuff.

Fuck WD. They're better off dead. Atlus and NISA have more than filled in the void left by them. And, unlike WD, they actually can get more than 1 game out in a fucking year!

In your opinion. I don't care about either of those companies. I want Working Designs back. They're second to none for translations. IMO Nintendo is #2 (they've gotten REALLY good over the years too, to the point I was occasionally laughing out loud in Mario & Luigi 2 and grinning half the time).

Dr Mario Kart

01-13-2007, 02:26 AM

Lets have a bake sale.

Roufuss

01-13-2007, 04:23 AM

Fuck WD. They're better off dead. Atlus and NISA have more than filled in the void left by them. And, unlike WD, they actually can get more than 1 game out in a fucking year!

And they don't butcher a fucking translation in an attempt to be "hip".

Mid Boss

01-13-2007, 05:57 AM

In your opinion. I don't care about either of those companies. I want Working Designs back. They're second to none for translations. IMO Nintendo is #2 (they've gotten REALLY good over the years too, to the point I was occasionally laughing out loud in Mario & Luigi 2 and grinning half the time).

Well, you better start warmin' up to them, because they will be the ones bringing over the games WD would have. And in a 1/3 of the time! I enjoyed the games they published/translated as much as anyone and will always be grateful to them for bringing over games like Dragon Force and the Lunar games that I love which might not have made it otherwise, but its just time to move on. I just won't put up with the delays WD made us put up with anymore. Not when Atlus has proven they can do what WD did better and faster.

Rei no Otaku

01-13-2007, 03:17 PM

I'll participate if they get rid of Vic Ireland.

Roufuss

01-13-2007, 03:19 PM

I'll participate if they get rid of Vic Ireland.

I'd be willing to bet he was the reason they went down, and he was the reason Sony gave him so much shit... IIRC, Vic Ireland also had a falling out with Sega over the Saturn, so it would really be no surprise if he pissed off someone at Sony and they purposely fucked him over.

We only ever hear one side to this story from Vic Ireland, and he paints a "Small company that loves the fans fights the evil oppresive giant", and I don't really buy his story or believe him at all.

alongx

01-13-2007, 03:21 PM

Working Designs fucking sucked. I'm glad they're in the ground.

fatbeer

01-13-2007, 03:31 PM

working design just publish games by rewording japanese text and translate so it will sound cohert to english language,they don't make games.It cost them extra money to publish since they have to buy license subject,afterwards they have to retranslate text then hire voice actors.

Too bad Working design is out of business,they do a very good job in terms of rpgs.Working design downfall is their poor business plan.Rpg sells are horrible in the U.S. since our culture is adapt to sports,first person shooters or any violent video games unlike Japanese mainstream fans who hate fps,but love rpg.Not to mention the constant delay after delays for several games

epobirs

01-15-2007, 02:58 PM

I'll participate if they get rid of Vic Ireland.

There is no Working Designs without Vic Ireland. He was the heart and soul of the company, for better or worse (worse really), and in a business that small it really, really matters.

Think you know how to do it better? Put together some capital and start a company. Just don't be surprised by how difficult it can actually be to cater to niche markets and make a profit at it.

Wolfpup

01-15-2007, 03:18 PM

Yeah, but the point is most of those serious delays and cancellations were Sony's fault, not Working Designs.

GuilewasNK

01-16-2007, 03:15 PM

I loved WD and was sad to see them go. When it comes to pack-ins and extras for games, they really made it popular in NA. Now you see other companies do it more here.

Altus and NIS pretty much fills the void from WD now though.

*edit* I see the OP got banned.

Roufuss

01-16-2007, 03:17 PM

*edit* I see the OP got banned.

He was RegalSin.

GuilewasNK

01-16-2007, 03:42 PM

He was RegalSin.

Really?

I thought he was just some dude acting like him, but he was the actual Regal?

shipwreck

01-16-2007, 03:44 PM

Really?

I thought he was just some dude acting like him, but he was the actual Regal?

All signs pointed to yes.

Kawnhr

01-17-2007, 12:25 AM

I appreciate that Working Designs translated these obscure games, but now that we've come to a point where there are other companies to give us niche games- who also don't butcher the translation, and release on a much more frequent basis- they're unneeded.

Sarang01

01-17-2007, 01:31 AM

And they don't butcher a fucking translation in an attempt to be "hip".
QFT.

Noodle Pirate!

01-17-2007, 02:23 AM

Im glad they are gone, maybe now Atlus, Natsume, NIS etc..will get all the licenses and actually bring them out.
I love how it was all Sony's fault that they had such a hard time. You dont see any other company bitching and moaning on the internet about how "mean and restrictive" Sony are to them.
VI was an ass and he pretty much drove that company into the ground. He was good at making up excuses, I'm sure he can find a great job as Jack Thompson's PR man.

Sarang01

01-17-2007, 02:34 AM

dafoomie

01-17-2007, 02:39 AM

And they don't butcher a fucking translation in an attempt to be "hip".
WD set the bar for quality localization and translation. We like to forget what the state of the industry was back in the early and mid 90s (even through the late 90s), halfassed work like Mobile Light Force was the norm. You were lucky if the original storyline wasn't just ignored, original art was rarely seen, original names were never seen, original voiceovers weren't even a consideration.

WD released Lunar:TSS in 1993. What they did with that game in terms of quality was almost completely unheard of. In those days, you were still having games like Zero Wing translated by some guy who once took night classes for English. Even on high budget, 1st party titles, translations were shit, names were changed, stories were changed. They weren't interested in actually bringing the games over as they were re-using a foreign game to cheaply make their own game. Nobody took the original seriously.

Decisions have to be made on things like jokes that don't translate well. If translated 100% accurately, they're often not real funny. You can either go with the strict translation and stay true to the dialog, or you can actually make it funny, and stay true to the emotion and effect that the game is trying to achieve. You can't always win in that situation.

And Noodle Pirate, yes you do see other companies unhappy about SCEA's restrictions. You just don't see them talking about it, because they would like to continue to run their business and get other titles released (which Vic Ireland probably should've been more concerned about). SNK is one that has publicly discussed it. Look at Dreamcatcher, 3 adventure games blocked when they were already complete and out in Europe, including Broken Sword 3. Syberia 1 and 2 were also blocked, same situation. They've been doing this for a long time, as well. WD wanted to bring over every Langrisser game in a boxset like Arc the Lad, and Konami wanted to bring over Policenauts. Both denied, many other great games denied because they think they know better.

62t

01-17-2007, 02:39 AM

Natsume needs to stop being a Koei, whoring out one franchise as much as they can and start to create some new one's. They've got the talent.
um they dont. Natsume is just a publisher.

Kapwanil

01-17-2007, 03:09 AM

WD released Lunar:TSS in 1993. What they did with that game in terms of quality was almost completely unheard of. In those days, you were still having games like Zero Wing translated by some guy who once took night classes for English. Even on high budget, 1st party titles, translations were shit, names were changed, stories were changed. They weren't interested in actually bringing the games over as they were re-using a foreign game to cheaply make their own game. Nobody took the original seriously.

Sort of reminds me of the "care" and "time" put into Ubisoft's translation for Lunar Legends for the GBA. Compared to WD it was along the lines of five steps back. Granted, people will be arguing the handling of dialogue from here to kingdom come but Legends seemed to keep to a straight translation (which was mostly boring, bereft of any character development or, well, character itself) and, worst of all, filled with plenty of translation mistakes, problems with character pictures, and beyond.

I know, most people wouldn't notice or care but I was one of those nuts who played Lunar: SSSC and talked to every character as often as possible over a few runs of the game. Yeah, WD took forever and a day on that one but considering how much unique text was in there and the fact that there were three slight spelling mistakes within those volumes of text it was still fairly impressive. A lot of care and love went into that and, hopefully, it paid off for them.

I just wish Ubisoft would have given Legends and Dragon Song a little bit more time in the translation department. Then again, to be fair, a better translation would barely add any polish on the fundamental gameplay problems all throughout Dragon Song. Oh lord, Game Arts, come on.

WD wanted to bring over every Langrisser game in a boxset like Arc the Lad, and Konami wanted to bring over Policenauts. Both denied, many other great games denied because they think they know better.

A horrible shame, that, since the Langrisser series was fantastic (although 3 was a bit of an odd duck).

Sarang01

01-17-2007, 03:18 AM

I just thought Konami were being assholes and wanted to screw us over in terms of "Policenauts".

62t

01-17-2007, 03:20 AM

hen again, to be fair, a better translation would barely add any polish on the fundamental gameplay problems all throughout Dragon Song. Oh lord, Game Arts, come on.

Game Arts has been going downward since Grandia 2.

Wolfpup

01-17-2007, 11:26 AM

Thanks for your post dafoomie! I'm really tired of all these people bashing Working Designs and Vic, when they probably wouldn't even have the quality of games they like if not for WD.

And Noodle Pirate, yes you do see other companies unhappy about SCEA's restrictions. You just don't see them talking about it, because they would like to continue to run their business and get other titles released (which Vic Ireland probably should've been more concerned about). SNK is one that has publicly discussed it. Look at Dreamcatcher, 3 adventure games blocked when they were already complete and out in Europe, including Broken Sword 3. Syberia 1 and 2 were also blocked, same situation. They've been doing this for a long time, as well. WD wanted to bring over every Langrisser game in a boxset like Arc the Lad, and Konami wanted to bring over Policenauts. Both denied, many other great games denied because they think they know better.

That's UNREAL that stuff like Policenauts and Syberia were blocked! I had no idea. I thought Syberia was a real coup for the X-Box.

I know SNK games have been blocked too (which again, has been a real coup for the X-Box).

I have NO idea what's wrong with Sony. There's something messed up there that they randomly block GREAT games that some people would literally buy the platform for, but then they allow absolute garbage that's in some cases unplayable. Where's the logic in that?

I thought Sony used to be really liberal? Was this caused by a management change, or what? This shows a real weakness in a closed platform like the consoles. Sega used to be great, then was horrible, Sony used to be good, then horrible. Right now Microsoft is more liberal, but that could change too. You're at their mercy, which is bad for all of us, but especially for small publishers.

whitereflection

01-17-2007, 01:52 PM

I thought Sony used to be really liberal? Was this caused by a management change, or what? This shows a real weakness in a closed platform like the consoles. Sega used to be great, then was horrible, Sony used to be good, then horrible. Right now Microsoft is more liberal, but that could change too. You're at their mercy, which is bad for all of us, but especially for small publishers.

I'm gonna take a total shot in the dark here, but Microsoft has to be "liberal" since they're newcomers to the industry. Otherwise, why would companies take a risk with the Xbox when they could go with an established platform like PS2?

If you look back to the days of Sega Genesis, it became a huge success after they accepted nearly anything, especially games that Nintendo wouldn't allow to be published on their systems. (Ads from this time read, "Sega does what Nintendon't!") Sony was the same way since Playstation was originally meant as an add-on to SNES, much like Sega's 32X for Genesis, but Nintendo opted to partner with Philips at the last minute. After more negotiation with Nintendo, Sony decided that SNES was getting too old, and with the next generation around the corner, Sony bit the bullet and released it as a stand-alone platform. History proves that this was a wise choice, as Sony quickly rose to become the market leader for over a decade now.

Roufuss

01-17-2007, 02:09 PM

SNK is one that has publicly discussed it.

SNK was told what they had to do in order for their games to be released here, and the president of SNK of Japan is an asshole and didn't want to play ball.

SNK games sell on their own for full price ($50 or so) in Japan, for one game.

They don't do that in the US. Not even close. Every SNK game released for the PS2 / Xbox has gotten clearanced at every store in one point or another - they just don't sell over here like they do in Japan.

Sony told SNK to bundle their games two at a time for the US, so it's a better value and more people would be interested (in reality, it's not such a bad idea). They did this for awhile, and then, for some reason, SNK went back to trying to submit single games and got denied.

I'm the biggest SNK fan in the world, and would have loved to see their games out over here, but I understand the reasoning behind it.

Then, for every example someone brings up if not letting a game out over here, I can name a 2D game they HAVE let out over here, like Atelier Iris. So yea, who knows what they are thinking half the time.

Sony is just doing what any company does at the top... every company only wants the hottest sellers on the shelf. Nintendo was a pretty evil corporation during the NES times too, with that "seal of approval".

Wolfpup

01-17-2007, 04:23 PM

I'm gonna take a total shot in the dark here, but Microsoft has to be "liberal" since they're newcomers to the industry. Otherwise, why would companies take a risk with the Xbox when they could go with an established platform like PS2?

If you look back to the days of Sega Genesis, it became a huge success after they accepted nearly anything, especially games that Nintendo wouldn't allow to be published on their systems. (Ads from this time read, "Sega does what Nintendon't!") Sony was the same way since Playstation was originally meant as an add-on to SNES, much like Sega's 32X for Genesis, but Nintendo opted to partner with Philips at the last minute. After more negotiation with Nintendo, Sony decided that SNES was getting too old, and with the next generation around the corner, Sony bit the bullet and released it as a stand-alone platform. History proves that this was a wise choice, as Sony quickly rose to become the market leader for over a decade now.

Technically the SNES + CD-ROM drive WAS the Playstation. What we know of as the Playstation was it's successor, ie Playstation X (why we usually abbreviate it PSX).

It does seem like the newcomers are always nice, and then turn horrible. But I don't really see why. What does Sony get out of it by acting like jerks? They hurt consumers, publishers/developers, and themselves too. No one wins, so I don't get the thinking.

I'd expect Microsoft to do the same (or worse, given their track record) if they get to be the largest game company, though there's always a chance they'd be better I suppose.

epobirs

01-17-2007, 05:51 PM

I'm gonna take a total shot in the dark here, but Microsoft has to be "liberal" since they're newcomers to the industry. Otherwise, why would companies take a risk with the Xbox when they could go with an established platform like PS2?

If you look back to the days of Sega Genesis, it became a huge success after they accepted nearly anything, especially games that Nintendo wouldn't allow to be published on their systems. (Ads from this time read, "Sega does what Nintendon't!") Sony was the same way since Playstation was originally meant as an add-on to SNES, much like Sega's 32X for Genesis, but Nintendo opted to partner with Philips at the last minute. After more negotiation with Nintendo, Sony decided that SNES was getting too old, and with the next generation around the corner, Sony bit the bullet and released it as a stand-alone platform. History proves that this was a wise choice, as Sony quickly rose to become the market leader for over a decade now.

Sega's primary motivation was desperation for any third party support. Nintendo had a highly restrictive publishing contract that kept nearly every decent third party from producing US releases for non-Nintendo platforms.

Sony was dumped by Nintendo, not the other way around. This happened when the SNES was still in rapid growth. Philips also got dumped as it became apparent that compatibility with CD-i could be more of a liability than advantage. The SNES-CD that came close to mass production was almost entirely an inhouse creation. Nintendo got cold feet when the Sega-CD bombed, despite the Nintendo approach being much lower priced and considerably more powerful thanks to the FX chip. Xexex was complete but never published and Secret of Mana had it's FMV torn out to make it a cartridge sized game.

epobirs

01-17-2007, 06:08 PM

Technically the SNES + CD-ROM drive WAS the Playstation. What we know of as the Playstation was it's successor, ie Playstation X (why we usually abbreviate it PSX).

It does seem like the newcomers are always nice, and then turn horrible. But I don't really see why. What does Sony get out of it by acting like jerks? They hurt consumers, publishers/developers, and themselves too. No one wins, so I don't get the thinking.

I'd expect Microsoft to do the same (or worse, given their track record) if they get to be the largest game company, though there's always a chance they'd be better I suppose.

The Sony involved SNES-CD project never went far enough for devs to do any real work. Sony called it the PSX because it sounded cool, not for a product that never got past the CAD stage. You could just as eaily say the PSX naming owes something to Sony's machines in the MSX computer market.

Sony is only acting like jerks in the eyes of a tiny subset of the market with a prediliction for games the majority of the market couldn't care less about. Sony knows that they can only have so many titles in the retail channel at a time and those retailers want the space they've allocated for a product to generate income. Thus, if Sony OKs five titles that only move a couple units per store, the retailers become wary since more judicious selection could easily match and exceed that sales volume with a single more popular item. They'd rather have one title that does a lot of business on one shelf slot than using five time the space for the same sales.

This happens time and again. Fans of niche titles get impassioned over their favorite games while ignoring what those trying to run a business cannot ignore. That these items cater to a very small audience.

This is where online distibution offers hope for niche titles. Prices would be high by CAG standards but the retail issues that make nich titles hard to sell would be largely eliminated.

Wolfpup

01-18-2007, 10:47 AM

Just wanted to point out that some Playstations actually exist. I forget which magazine, but some publication actually showed them a while back. Seems like there were in the 100s produced? Obviously there were no finished CD based games, but they do run SNES games. The SNES's sound system is from Sony, and actually one of the first things I noticed about the PSX is how SNES like some of the things it did were.

elwood731

01-18-2007, 12:14 PM

and actually one of the first things I noticed about the PSX is how SNES like some of the things it did were.
Well, certainly the original PSX controller shows "inspiration" from the SNES.

Wolfpup

01-18-2007, 04:41 PM

Well, certainly the original PSX controller shows "inspiration" from the SNES.

Yeah, but I meant some of the way it handled graphics and audio. It very much seemed like a SNES II (which the N64 obviously doesn't).

Sarang01

01-18-2007, 06:16 PM

This is where online distibution offers hope for niche titles. Prices would be high by CAG standards but the retail issues that make nich titles hard to sell would be largely eliminated.

I was about to suggest this though I'd debate what you say about price unless you're talking about the games being entirely downloaded.

Kayden

01-18-2007, 08:04 PM

Thank god. I cant believe he was axed this fast.

On a side note, this thread makes me want to play Lunar.

Kawnhr

01-19-2007, 05:12 AM

Decisions have to be made on things like jokes that don't translate well. If translated 100% accurately, they're often not real funny. You can either go with the strict translation and stay true to the dialog, or you can actually make it funny, and stay true to the emotion and effect that the game is trying to achieve. You can't always win in that situation.

..Or you can do what Atlus does. Take the intended meaning and localise it so that it fits the culture, changing around the script a bit if needed.

Puffa469

01-19-2007, 10:40 AM

fatbeer

01-19-2007, 08:31 PM

90% of the time, what they mean when they say that a joke, or cultural reference doesnt 'translate' is that the joke is sexually oriented. In japanese culture, its completely normal to make jokes about pedophila and other perverted sex acts. Thats normally the kind of stuff they take out in the US versions.

try playing super robot taisen orginal generations 1 and 2 for gameboy advance.Excellen Browning is one crazy sex kitten,she talking about sex,boobies or perverted stuff in every mission or act.I doubt anybody would care since this niche game that appeal to a small audience.

Rei no Otaku

01-19-2007, 10:49 PM

..Or you can do what Atlus does. Take the intended meaning and localise it so that it fits the culture, changing around the script a bit if needed.
Amazing how Atlus is able to do that and not make fun of Rush Limbaugh isn't it?

epobirs

01-20-2007, 01:10 AM

I was about to suggest this though I'd debate what you say about price unless you're talking about the games being entirely downloaded.

Game that are entirely downloaded is the primary interpretation of the phrase 'online distribution' since the only thing online allows one to distribute is bits. Online sales of games delivered as a collection of organized molecules via the postal service is just a variation on brick and mortar that only eliminates the retail outlet but not the product manufacturing.

If you buy a game from Xbox Live Arcade, that is online distribution.

If you buy the Xbox Live Arcade Collection from Amazon.com, that is online sales.

Online distribution holds huge advantages for niche title publishers. For retail packages, a company like Sony has to pay perunit royalty fees up front to the platform owner, such as Sony. Bt in online distribution, the third party publisher just sends a file or files to Sony to host on a server, and Sony pays the third party when a sale is made.

Say the royalty is $5 per unit. (This is quite low for a full price console game.) If the third party orders a mere 200,000 thousand units, in additional to the charge for the actual manufacturing, the third party has to pony up a Million with a capital M dollars. In advance. Before they've sold a single unit.

This adds tremendous financial risk on top of the cost to produce the localization. For a game that didn't need extensive work the media production and royalties can be far greater than what it cost to get the publishable product. As a result, many, many games go untranslated because the cost is just too great for a game with a limited audience. Eliminating those media production and royalty costs radically changes the rules for bringing niche titles to audiences outside the games' native markets.

sarausagi

01-20-2007, 01:27 AM

God, no.

Look at Grandia, incredible legendary game...

Now imagine if WD had done it

I realize Grandia is light hearted by nature

But Grandia would have been nothing but puns and cliched jokes, emotional scenes would have turned into gags, any attempt at being serious would have been butchered

It comes to the point, I honestly prefer playing LUNAR LEGEND, just because of the translation.

Their Albert Odyssey translation was superb though.

Kawnhr

01-20-2007, 01:29 AM

Amazing how Atlus is able to do that and not make fun of Rush Limbaugh isn't it?
..What?

argyle

01-20-2007, 01:47 AM

I own pretty much every PSOne/PS2 WD RPG, and I still didn't shed a tear when they folded. Pretty much for the reasons already stated here - they were ungodly slow, their translations were full of pop references & corny puns, and in the end they were more concerned about the packaging & extras of their games than the actual games themselves.

Oh, and Vic was an ass. Hell, I even bought stuff from him on Ebay one time and he was an ass there too - charged an insane amount of shipping, took about 3 weeks to finally ship and when he did, shipped media mail.

There was an interview with him during the DC days when he came out and made such a big deal out of how WD wasn't going to support the system because of this & that shortcoming. Why? It's not like WD support made or broke any system - he just felt like kicking Sega while they were going down. I'm sure Sega didn't care anyway - WD's localization of Magical Knights Rayearth was announced duing the beginnings of the Saturn, and it was literally the last game released on the system in the US. Yea, they rocked.

Atlus is 100x the company WD was. I have no problem giving them & NIS my full support, because they fully deserve it. I'd argue that WD never released a game at the same quality as SMT: Nocturne - and we've seen 4 games from the SMT series on the PS2 so far, with a 5th coming this year.

Chacrana

01-20-2007, 02:40 AM

Atlus is 100x the company WD was. I have no problem giving them & NIS my full support, because they fully deserve it. I'd argue that WD never released a game at the same quality as SMT: Nocturne - and we've seen 4 games from the SMT series on the PS2 so far, with a 5th coming this year.

I fully agree with you there. Not only are Atlus' offerings generally superior (especially in the case of the SMT series), but they faithfully translate the games without dumbing sections of them down. Considering how dark the SMT games are, that's definitely a nice surprise and I seriously doubt we could ever expect something like that out of WD. They get the job done relatively quickly and they do a consistantly good job with their stuff so there's really no need for a company like WD anymore.

Side note: Cannot wait for Persona 3.

Sarang01

01-20-2007, 07:59 AM

I fully agree with you there. Not only are Atlus' offerings generally superior (especially in the case of the SMT series), but they faithfully translate the games without dumbing sections of them down. Considering how dark the SMT games are, that's definitely a nice surprise and I seriously doubt we could ever expect something like that out of WD. They get the job done relatively quickly and they do a consistantly good job with their stuff so there's really no need for a company like WD anymore.

Side note: Cannot wait for Persona 3.

You're joking right? Short time my ass. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't they start working on the translation AFTER the game is done? Why not during? It would save a lot of time and maybe then we'd get games like FF and others a month or two after the Japanese instead of 6.

The Mana Knight

01-20-2007, 09:17 AM

Maybe. Or maybe Sony dug it for them. Doesn't matter what your decisions are if Sony's petty and won't approve stuff.Most of it had to do with the way Vic approached SCEA (I saw SCEA because they have the most strict regulations on games, and most of the time, there's a good reason for it). Other publishers stated they had very little problems getting most games by SCEA. All they did was approach them about a game (before it was translated), and if they gave it an okay, they'd go ahead and translate it. Atlus said they had Soul Hackers (think that's the name) rejected, so all they did was pick up another game and it went through. Vic, being as stubborn as he is, would complain out loud that he can't get anything translated, yell at SCEA, and still go ahead and translate a game although they said no (or already do it and feel they'll automatically approve). Vic's arrogance brought WD to death. Without a doubt, Growlanser II & III sold separately would be a rip-off. Growlanser II is only a 15 hour game and it looks like a PS1 game (not a bad thing to me, but still). Growlanser III might have been worth full price, due to being longer. Vic didn't have to support PS2 also. GBA has plenty of great Japanese games to bring stateside, and he never chose to support it (Atlus did very well on GBA). He put all his eggs into one basket always which ends up hurting him.

And from what seems to be rumored, Atlus is publishing Growlanser V stateside, and they don't seem to be having problems getting SCEA to approve.

In your opinion. I don't care about either of those companies. I want Working Designs back. They're second to none for translations. IMO Nintendo is #2 (they've gotten REALLY good over the years too, to the point I was occasionally laughing out loud in Mario & Luigi 2 and grinning half the time).Ever hear about: http://www.gaijinworks.com/. That's the new company Vic Ireland started up to publish games. They were suppose to announce something around late October 2006, but never did. Vic still posts at GAF though saying how awesome Earth Defense Force X is.

dafoomie

01-20-2007, 01:20 PM

You're joking right? Short time my ass. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't they start working on the translation AFTER the game is done? Why not during? It would save a lot of time and maybe then we'd get games like FF and others a month or two after the Japanese instead of 6.
WD had a deal with GameArts to start translating and localizing Lunar 3 (for PS2) while in development, and they also had input into the development process. That game never happened, though.

Its not done during a lot since its secondary, plus, how do you get a game approved for the US market that doesn't exist yet?

Atlus has an advantage there since they develop many of the games they localize. Unlike the previous guy, I wouldn't say there is no need for a company like WD. Are there still viable games that aren't localized? Are there still small developers that can't afford to do it in house? Then there is still a niche. WD is gone because of poor business decisions, not because the market isn't there, on the consumer side and the client side.

If you guys are going to compare the work done on Lunar (again, in 1993) to work being done today, you're not making a fair comparison. Again, in 1993, this was absolutely groundbreaking stuff, they set the standard for quality, and a lot of the good work being done today would not be happening if not for them. If you want to compare recent work, at least look at Growlanser. If you want to call them out for always being late, not getting a lot of games out the door, or not running their business too well, then fine.

Growlanser II IS a PS1 game. Growlanser V, if it does see the light of day here, is fairly recent and in 3D. What speaks volumes to me is that Growlanser IV won't be brought over.

epobirs

01-20-2007, 02:46 PM

Kayden

01-20-2007, 05:07 PM

This is very true for something like Star Ocean 3. The version we got is actually the second version of the Japanese game. They added the combo system and removed a number of bugs. Had they been working on the US and Japanese version at the same time, they probably would have only released the second version in Japan.

For the simple reason that most aren't inclined to make the investment in localization until the game is completed and a known quantity. A very affluent company like Square Enix could easily manage simultaneous Japanese and English (the two biggest markets, for the moment) development but what would be the point? It would only run up costs on having to throw out material every time a change is required, which can happen a lot with an RPG. Waiting until the Japanese release is on sale a few months also allows for feedback from the audience that could influence other versions of the game, especially serious bugs that got past testing.

Finally, if you're a very small publisher that could be destroyed by a single project going bad by running up high costs but failing to find an audience, don't you think you'd want to wait and see if the games does good business in its native market before commiting?

62t

01-20-2007, 08:47 PM

For the simple reason that most aren't inclined to make the investment in localization until the game is completed and a known quantity. A very affluent company like Square Enix could easily manage simultaneous Japanese and English (the two biggest markets, for the moment) development but what would be the point? It would only run up costs on having to throw out material every time a change is required, which can happen a lot with an RPG. Waiting until the Japanese release is on sale a few months also allows for feedback from the audience that could influence other versions of the game, especially serious bugs that got past testing.

Finally, if you're a very small publisher that could be destroyed by a single project going bad by running up high costs but failing to find an audience, don't you think you'd want to wait and see if the games does good business in its native market before commiting?
the decison to localize a game before it is completed has more to do with releasing it in time for the holidays. They have no trouble releasing FFV one month after it is released in Japan. Nintendo has also gotten Mario and Luigi basiclly the same week as Japan.

epobirs

01-20-2007, 11:46 PM

the decison to localize a game before it is completed has more to do with releasing it in time for the holidays. They have no trouble releasing FFV one month after it is released in Japan. Nintendo has also gotten Mario and Luigi basiclly the same week as Japan.

That can apply in some situations. Developers will make a lot of effort to hit the big shopping season but if it becomes apparent the project won't complete in time the all-nighters tend to end quickly.

Keep in mind the recent FF V release is a quickie since the translation has been done several times over since the original SNES release was canceled. It's hard to imagine today, but back in the early 90s Square was very unsure of their ability to do business in the US. The NA localization of FFV for the SNES was pretty much complete when they pulled the plug. Later, after FFVI did decently under the name FFIII, they considered releasing FFV under a non-FF title, so it wouldn't seem like a step backwards. But it never came to be and the game went unreleased until the PS1 package. So, after all those years and previous English versions, it would have been ridiculous to not make Xmas.

The same cannot be so easily said for a game in its first incarnation. Mario & Luigi is a rare exception but if Nintendo sees fit to do this only once in a great while, imagine the hesitation for a third party of far lesser resources.

Sarang01

01-21-2007, 12:12 AM

For the simple reason that most aren't inclined to make the investment in localization until the game is completed and a known quantity. A very affluent company like Square Enix could easily manage simultaneous Japanese and English (the two biggest markets, for the moment) development but what would be the point? It would only run up costs on having to throw out material every time a change is required, which can happen a lot with an RPG. Waiting until the Japanese release is on sale a few months also allows for feedback from the audience that could influence other versions of the game, especially serious bugs that got past testing.

Finally, if you're a very small publisher that could be destroyed by a single project going bad by running up high costs but failing to find an audience, don't you think you'd want to wait and see if the games does good business in its native market before commiting?

Epo I'm more referring to companies like EnixSquare and Atlus. Thanks for the info though. Only serves to remind one if I want an RPG here in any reasonable time I should just buy the Japanese one and finish learning Japanese.

62t

01-21-2007, 12:39 AM

That can apply in some situations. Developers will make a lot of effort to hit the big shopping season but if it becomes apparent the project won't complete in time the all-nighters tend to end quickly.

Keep in mind the recent FF V release is a quickie since the translation has been done several times over since the original SNES release was canceled. It's hard to imagine today, but back in the early 90s Square was very unsure of their ability to do business in the US. The NA localization of FFV for the SNES was pretty much complete when they pulled the plug. Later, after FFVI did decently under the name FFIII, they considered releasing FFV under a non-FF title, so it wouldn't seem like a step backwards. But it never came to be and the game went unreleased until the PS1 package. So, after all those years and previous English versions, it would have been ridiculous to not make Xmas.

The same cannot be so easily said for a game in its first incarnation. Mario & Luigi is a rare exception but if Nintendo sees fit to do this only once in a great while, imagine the hesitation for a third party of far lesser resources.

Well FFV does have a lot new translation compare to the PSOne port they released. But at this point translating before a game is completed is more common than you think. Namco start translating translating Tales of Legendia before it is completed. Mario and Luig 2 was released one month before Japan. FFIII DS and Valkyrie Profile 2: Silmeria took around 3 months. At this point Square is big enough that they will to start translating before the game is completed to meet the holidays.

Kawnhr

01-21-2007, 05:55 AM

If you guys are going to compare the work done on Lunar (again, in 1993) to work being done today, you're not making a fair comparison. Again, in 1993, this was absolutely groundbreaking stuff, they set the standard for quality, and a lot of the good work being done today would not be happening if not for them.

I don't care how awesome this was back in '93. Their translations don't stand up well against time because lots of the script was altered, mostly to add in cultural references which no longer make sense. Some jokes are fine, but only if the mood of the game is actually lighthearted, like Summon Night or Phoenix Wright.

The original Star Fox game looks pretty darn horrible now. But, it looked amazing back when it was released.. does this mean we should still praise its graphics? of course not.

Yes, Working Designs was an influential company. But that's all I can give them credit for now. Most of their games had long turn-around times and had butchered translations.

Atlus and NISA have better, more accurate translations and releaser them faster. Plus, Atlus has been releasing Sting's games as of late, and NISA will release Gust's Ar Tonelico. If both of them continue publishing Sting and Gust's games (respectively) then you've got the majority of the niche games right there (haha oxymoron).

dafoomie

01-21-2007, 06:18 AM

I don't care how awesome this was back in '93. Their translations don't stand up well against time because lots of the script was altered, mostly to add in cultural references which no longer make sense. Some jokes are fine, but only if the mood of the game is actually lighthearted, like Summon Night or Phoenix Wright.

The original Star Fox game looks pretty darn horrible now. But, it looked amazing back when it was released.. does this mean we should still praise its graphics? of course not.

Yes, Working Designs was an influential company. But that's all I can give them credit for now. Most of their games had long turn-around times and had butchered translations.
To call WD's translations 'butchered' is completely ridiculous. Look at Alundra, and Alundra 2, and tell me which one is butchered.

Sarang01

01-21-2007, 07:21 AM

To call WD's translations 'butchered' is completely ridiculous. Look at Alundra, and Alundra 2, and tell me which one is butchered.

Look with some of the Pop Culture jokes Vic may have thought it was cute to be "Gaijin Fabulous" but the rest of us don't. I'm referring to the translations in general.
Btw "Gaijin Works" seems a quite appropriate title fpr what was going to be his new company, now if only he Okii and Baka to the title to really make it fit well, the ADV of the RPG publishers of the games industry. Sorry I couldn't resist the insult. ;-)

Wolfpup

01-22-2007, 11:50 AM

To call WD's translations 'butchered' is completely ridiculous. Look at Alundra, and Alundra 2, and tell me which one is butchered.

No kidding.

Not to mention, Working Designs translations from the early 90's are still better than 95-99% of translations today.

And Atlus' isn't a fair comparison since they're not a small publisher, and are doing their own games. Plus I've never been particularly impressed with their translations (Nintendo's the best now AFAIK), and they've got one of Working Designs' writers anyway, (which coincides with their translations getting better), so really doesn't count...

62t

01-22-2007, 02:02 PM

WD only add jokes for NPC that otherwise have nothing important to say. Main story wise, the translation for Lunar is very close to the original Japanese, and thats according to people who are fluent in Japanese. Even with my limited Japanese, I can tell some of the translation are off listening to Japanese voice when playing NISA games (Atlus is better). In the early 90s you got squaresoft with FF4 and FF6 they are very different from the original Japanese (but a lot has to do with limitation of the time ).