Downloading Music vs Pirating Games: Is there a difference?

[CheapyD]

I thought we could add additional discussions besides ones that just focus on specific games.

Downloading Music vs Pirating Games: Is there a difference?

I'm sure a vast majority of gamers have done one or both, but are there any differences between the two?
Do you feel guilty about doing one, while the other is acceptable in your mind? Why?

If pirating games was as quick and easy as downloading music, do you think game sales would suffer?

[eldad9]

A war is brewing between individuals and the copyright corporations.

Even the term "piracy" is a huge victory for them. It equates copyright infringement with theft, rape and murder.

For an example of the damage the corporations are doing, see this slashdot article (http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/11/24/123209&mode=flat&tid=123&tid=99&threshold=2).

Personally, I believe the RIAA effectively declared war on consumers the moment they decided to sue copyright infringers, and manufacture discs that appear to be CDs but do not follow the redbook standard.

Are we headed for an all-out war with games too? Hard to say; game companies traditionally use technological measures rather than legal ones to curb piracy, but with online gaming... only time will tell.

[Gothic Walrus]

When I download games, I tend to feel guilty. On the other hand, I have no qualms whatsoever with downloading music. Why? I don't feel ripped off when I pay for a game.

First and foremost, it's important to note that I'm a cheapass. That goes without saying here, though. :)

When I buy a game, the amount of entertainment I get for my money is pretty dang good. When I find a game like Fallout for $1.25 (part of a combo pack at Target a few months back), I'm happy. The game keeps me busy for hours, and it seems like a great use of my money.

I tend to get much less entertainment from a CD that, in most cases, costs more than most of the games I buy. Part of it is the "there's only one good track" syndrome, where you end up realizing that most of the CD actually sucks. The thing that burns me most about CDs, though, is feeling ripped off. No matter how much I like Weezer, I'm going to be pissed when I buy a CD that has barely a half hour of music on it. If the CD is longer but full of filler, I'm going to be just as mad. I've paid for something, and I don't want crap - I want good music, damn it!

The fact that the RIAA has completely overreacted whereas the computer industry has done little is also a factor. Why would I support an organization that sues schoolgirls and grandparents for thousands of dollars of "damages" that the RIAA recoups in about a day's time?

As a result of all of the above, I only burn games occasionally, and tend to pay for most of what I want. When it comes to music, though...it's safe to say that more than half of the CDs I own aren't ones that I've paid retail for. Used, presents, burned...as long as the RIAA isn't getting my money, I'm happy.

Until music prices drop, I'm going to continue burning and downloading music.

My $.02

[technic]

Having worked in the game industry and seeing the blood, sweat, and tears that go into making the great games that people love it really sucks to see someone just download it. For me and the games I worked on, it's almost like a personal attack... as if I was going to your house and stealing shit from it.

Say you worked on re-building an old American muscle car, an old Mustang, and you spent two years of your time working on it and making it the best you could. Then some guy walks in and steals your car after you finish and expects you to not give a shit. I'm not an expert in rhetoric so I don't know if the analogy holds, but that is pretty much how it feels.

After having that experience I have bought every game I have played (besides rentals and such, of course) -- if a good game comes out, I want to support the developers who produced it so that more good games of that nature continue to come out. If piracy keeps growing to a point that there will be no financial incentive to producing games, developers will obviously stop. No more games = no good. Maybe the business model needs to be revisited, I don't know, clearly it will have to to crack the Chinese market.

Any way you look at the issue it is stealing something a lot of people worked very hard on. Movies and music are the same thing. I don't necessarily agree with the tactics they are employing to enforce their copyrights, and I completely understand the shitty ripped off feeling of watching or listening to crap, but it is no different than a game.

Anyways, just my thoughts.

[Mulliga]

I don't do either. I get CDs from the local public library :).

[video_gamer324]

BIG difference. Here's why:

Music: I cannot think of one recording company that has even tried to put copyright protection on its CDs. Can they? Yes. Is it expensive? Not really. Do they? No. Plus, the fact that they've waited so long to take action really puts the RIAA in a tough spot. It falls into the category of "salutary neglect", kind of like how England lost possession of the American colonies. Besides, reports show that album sales have _increased_ since file sharing gained popularity. Kind of ironic that the recording bigwigs want to end that trend.

Games: Game manufacturers don't deserve to be ripped off because they actually make a good attempt to stop piracy. There are two categories, though - current games and old-school games. There's really no excuse to pirate current games. I was dumb enough to burn a couple of PC games a friend lent me several years ago, thinking I was so slick, but I could have easily tried them at my friend's house without violating any laws (I am pleased to note that I ended up buying the retail versions of both those games within three weeks). I think vintage games are a bit different, however - the publisher's don't make money anymore from games on systems like the NES, Genesis, etc. Sure, the used game stores may lose business, but they don't technically hold the rights to the games, so they're not really entitled to any profit from selling them. On the other hand, if a publisher decides to rerelease these old-school games, like the Namcomuseums, you're not entitled to free roms of those games.

Conclusion: Downloading music or current games is like flicking a cigarette out your window - it's illegal, but it's unlikely that you'll be punished. Downloading games is fine unless you can buy them new. If you download music or current games that you really like, though, purchase the retail versions so you don't feel guilty.

[Gothic Walrus]

I don't do either. I get CDs from the local public library :).

I do that too...and then I burn them.

To technic: I understand that it's stealing, and I've known that for years. As far as the amount of work involved...that argument doesn't seem to hold up as well for music. Looking at the credits of a game, there are usually many involved - programmers, artists, composers, department heads...the list goes on.

When it comes to CDs...who else besides the band is involved? Beyond a few behind the scenes positions (engineering, mastering, etc.), there's not very many people. Definitely not as many as work on a game.

I probably didn't make my position clear, so let's try this again. I tend not to download games because I feel guilty when I do. When I burn a CD, I don't feel bad for anyone. So, I pay for games and I don't pay for music. Simple as that.

I know that I'm probably completely wrong in my arguements. If so...prove it. I love a good debate. :twisted:

[st0neface]

I buy my CDs and video games. I play NES and SNES games on my emulators, but I don't really consider that pirating since it's been a while since both have been discontinued

[akilshohen]

I download music, but through this downloading I have gotten into new types of music and have bought CD's. A lot does go into making a CD and if you don't pay attention to your contract, you are basically getting raped.
They are starting to put copy protection on CD's. Anthony Hamilton's CD has it but it's REALLY easy to break, you simply hold shift.
I don't really feel different about dl'ding games. They need to put more demo's out to let you try it out.

[Rich]

I buy my CDs and video games. I play NES and SNES games on my emulators, but I don't really consider that pirating since it's been a while since both have been discontinued

I feel that I'm not supporting any of the developers by buying used games, so why bother? That said, I don't use emulators anyway.

As for music, although I don't DL any, I have no problem with it since you can get the same thing on a radio. (Which I do use, rather than DLing music)

As for pirating games, if me calling people all over the boards an asshole for pirating games isn't enough, well, then, you suck!

[eldad9]

BIG difference. Here's why:

I cannot think of one recording company that has even tried to put copyright protection on its CDs. Can they? Yes. Is it expensive? Not really. Do they? No.

Yes, they do.

Exhibit A (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/11/11/1253253&mode=thread&tid=141&tid=188)

Exhibit B (http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/10/09/2211259&mode=thread&tid=123&tid=126&tid=141&tid=17 2&tid=188&tid=93&tid=99)

Exhibit C (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/09/24/1956206&mode=thread&tid=141&tid=188)

Exhibit D (http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/04/06/0031209&mode=thread&tid=141&tid=188)

Tell me if you need more.

[jasonditz]

Say you worked on re-building an old American muscle car, an old Mustang, and you spent two years of your time working on it and making it the best you could. Then some guy walks in and steals your car after you finish and expects you to not give a shit. I'm not an expert in rhetoric so I don't know if the analogy holds, but that is pretty much how it feels.


The analogy doesn't hold. Not even close.

If I "steal your car" you no longer have your car.

[defender]

The analogy is fine if you add that you planned on selling the car once it was completed.

[technic]

I've been reading this interesting book called "Prisoner's Dilemma" by William Poundstone. It's about the life of John von Neumann who was one of the principal mathematicians who invented game theory. It gives an example of a case of prisoner's dilemma which fits this context exactly:

"The most common type of prisoner's dilemma in everyday life is the 'free rider dilemma.' This is a prisoner's dilemma with many, rather than just two, players. The name refers to the dilemma confronting public transit riders. It's late at night, and there's no one in the subway station. Why not just hop over the turnstiles and save yourself the fare? But remember, if everyone hopped the turnstiles, the subway system would go broke, and no one would be able to get anywhere." (Poundstone, 126)

Obviously this can be applied to pirating and many pirates use it as an excuse as to why their single case of pirating doesn't matter. He continues:

"It is the easiest thing in the world to rationalize hopping the turnstiles. What's the chance that your lost fare will bankrupt the subway system? Virtually zero ... but if everybody thinks this way ... Since there will always be people who 'get away with' not paying, the others are suckers who pay full fare but ride a poorly maintained subway because of the revenue lost to turnstile hopping." (Poundstone, 126-127)

I don't want my games to become "poorly maintainted subway"'s, hehe I know it sounds silly, so I support the game companies that make games that I like and hope that most of others will do the same thing. Anyways, the book is an interesting read and I suggest it to anyone interested in mathematical analysis of social considerations.

[jasonditz]

The analogy is fine if you add that you planned on selling the car once it was completed.

Only if by "pirating games" you mean stealing CDs off the shelves.

[Scrubking]

When it comes to downloading music or games I think it all boils down to the Robbin Hood effect:

Because people are stealing from multi-million dollar companies they feel justified or at least okay about doing it.

It's difficult to feel sorry for someone who sings one song and makes millions while our school teachers are struggling to get paid at the end of the week. It is even worse when the millionaires complain about it. The South Park episode that makes fun of that is a good example.


If "piracy" was stealing from your neighbor it probably wouldn't be so prevelant.

[jasonditz]

Actually it comes down to the fact that stealing and copyright violation are two entirely different legal and logical concepts.

[Scrubking]

Actually it comes down to the fact that stealing and copyright violation are two entirely different legal and logical concepts.

Taking something that wasn't given to you and that you didn't pay for is stealing. Period.

[video_gamer324]

BIG difference. Here's why:

I cannot think of one recording company that has even tried to put copyright protection on its CDs. Can they? Yes. Is it expensive? Not really. Do they? No.

Yes, they do.

Exhibit A (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/11/11/1253253&mode=thread&tid=141&tid=188)

Exhibit B (http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/10/09/2211259&mode=thread&tid=123&tid=126&tid=141&tid=17 2&tid=188&tid=93&tid=99)

Exhibit C (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/09/24/1956206&mode=thread&tid=141&tid=188)

Exhibit D (http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/04/06/0031209&mode=thread&tid=141&tid=188)

Tell me if you need more.

I stand corrected. Hooray for the companies and CDs you mentioned that are now beginning to copyright-protect their music.

[eldad9]

I stand corrected. Hooray for the companies and CDs you mentioned that are now beginning to copyright-protect their music.

Quite. Hooray for the companies that hassle honest folk, misrepresent their products as CDs when in fact they are not, make CDs that don't play on some CD players, and don't do anything whatsoever to prevent copyright infringement.

[jasonditz]

Actually it comes down to the fact that stealing and copyright violation are two entirely different legal and logical concepts.

Taking something that wasn't given to you and that you didn't pay for is stealing. Period.

Since what's being taken here is a service and not a good, one could make a similar argument for enjoying the air conditioning in the mall when you aren't buying anything.

[Ben_F]

I consider downloading music pretty much ethical, despite the law. There are numerous bands/songs that ive heard once before here and there, and looked up on p2p, and loved them. This has prompted me on several occasions to purchase CD's which i legally own and can backup all i want to.

Games are an entirely different matter. Since these are two toatlly seperate mediums, i believe they need to be approached differently. Firstly, i believe if a game is more than 5 years old/ no longer sold on any platform (PC/PS/ ANYTHING), i pretty much have no qualms since the developer has made all them money they are going to and t doesent hurt them. Whereas, when you download those two new brand spankin hot-game-hasnt-even-been-released-yet 700MB isos and burn them so you can "get in on the free stuff". THIS HURTS THE GAMING INDUSTRY.

Imagine what someone said. You spend 2-3 years restoringa 1978 Mustang 2 Big body, brand new 440 big block, mint interior, pearl white finish with that perfect little chrome mustang grill logo. Now imagine someone with a duplicate key they stole from you and made walks up and drives it away.
Never to be caught, Never punished, nothing.

Gee, dont you wanna go restore another game now? As the growth of broadband spreads, i only see this problem becoming bigger. Game companies need to start doing something before they really hurt themselves.

I also think the game companies have to do something about prices, which i believe is a major contributing factor to piracy. Who wants to pay $50 dollars for the latest game when they can go grab it for free? Reasonable prices = more sales.

Just me raving and ranting people, move along.

[gamefreak]

I think pirating music is "less bad" than games since, yes, both the artists and devlopers/producers/etc. work very hard BUT: artists are giving us one good song of 3 minutes or on RARE ocasions a good album with 60 minutes while devlopers are giving us in some cases 60 HOUR games. While artists make us pay for their album to get just that one good song developers freuqently distribute demos and such. I think pirating a game just to try it out (I know a ton of people say this as an excuse but I'm talking about people who auctually do) and if it sucks, they delete it and forget about it. If its the best game ever, they go out and buy it. This is more of a case of a free rental than a free game and if I were a developer I really wouldn't care if someone did that to one of my games...

[Zomboy]

There are several fundimental differences between a game and some music.


Games can last hours and hours in one play through, while a music CD lasts 30 minutes or so, while being about a third of the price of the game. The money per hour ratio is MUCH better for a game than music.

Some games have more replay value than others, either with good multiplayer (in other words, not just tacked on), mods, multiple paths to take, and hidden areas and things to find. Music is, yet again, non-interactive and less value per dollar to the consumer.

Games have reasons to actually buy them instead of pirating. Many games require CD-Keys to play online, and those keys are checked against a server. If everyone who's downloaded the game has the same CD-Key, they cant play. Plus, there are sometimes bonuses in the box, like a good manual, a CD soundtrack, maps, figurines, ect., while a music CD's bonuses, if any, are usually on the CD so they are easily copied.

While games and music might not be equal, the "good, moral" use for P2P and piracy extends over both of these, as people can download and try them to see if the game/music is any good before buying. I myself would have never bought several CDs if it wasnt for downloading the other songs on the CD to see if its just filler or not. I've also saved myself money on games and music that sucked. I tried UFO: Aftermath this way and, without needing reviews, found out it suckd and they didnt deserve my money. Conversely, I also downloaded Rise of Nations, loved it, and bought it. Now, if I had only done the same with Force Commander... :x

[dmx10101]

I'm not gonna write 3 paragraphs here, just a quick response.

I download music, not that often becuase I have dial up and it takes like 30 minutes+ to download 1 song. But, I mostly download, music the not available in stores- hip hop instrumentals, or hard to find music, or a song I like by somebodyt that has no other good songs on their cd. Otherwise I buy the cd. I have a huge cd collection, but I download music too. As for games, I always buy them, no need to download them to me.

[terribledeli]

Its hard for me to add in my two cents since...well...most of the music I listen to is readily available from the bands' website and have no qualms with you passing along a cd-r to a friend. fans are fans when you're a struggling musician.

I used to not care when folks would pirate games, then I attended E3 in 2002. It sorta sucks to shake hands with folks you know busted their balls off to produce a game...only to have I33TGAM3R29 mention on a message board how he pirated the title since he didn't feel he should have to pay money to enjoy games.

But, its rather a moot point. No amount of conviencing will change someone's mind if they're getting instant gratification with zero resources being put into it.

I'd personally just steer clear of any "flare ups" regarding justifying (or arguing against) piracy, on any medium.

[pinatamonkey]

I admit it, I do download music and games. Drifting between unemployed and working for the minimum wage of $5.15 an hour and being well above the age where my parents would buy me games, I don't have a lot of expendable income to risk on games or CDs that I won't really like. There are some games that I do shell out money for, after they have dropped in price some, while some just aren't worth buying to me, even if they are 'good'. For instance, Max Payne 2, while having an engaging storyline for a shooter, lasted just hours. With limited replay value, I would be dissapointed to drop $50 or even $30 on it.

With music, a lot of what I download is stuff I haven't listened to before. Short clips like the stuff on amazon.com doesn't even come close to encouraging me to buy the CD - what they can do, however, is pursuade me to take a closer look at the artist or CD, and that usually means me downloading it. Since I'm 'blessed' with a broadband connection - thanks dad :), I download an entire CD when I can, so I won't have to deal with the dilemma of buying a CD based on one or two songs (usually the only good ones on the album)

I personally draw the line at -buying- pirated goods, though. I figure, if the developers/musicians/whoever aren't getting my money for the game/cd/whoever, than nobody else should, either. If I'm going to pay for something, it's going to be the people who deserve it.

[chunk]

Argh! When I'm at high sea and see a ship whose hull is full of games me and me swabbies get the gun powder and fire some cannonballs. After we overtake her we blindfold her crew and make 'em walk the plank one by one!!

Aye, its not good as doubloons but a shipment of games will have to do.

Alas on the high sea there is no internet, so downloading music is impossible!

[E-Z-B]

I support downloading only games that are no longer for sale on older consoles. I think I saw nintendo say that they own their intellectualy property, so they don't want you to download ANY game regardless if it's not on sale anymore because they may re-release it later. But say I want to play Kid Icarus and I can't find it locally. Okay, Nintendo, now re-release it so I can buy it, you can make money, and I can play my game. No? Okay, then I'm going to download it.

You could argue that I could buy it on ebay or gamestop.com, but Nintendo still isn't making money from that old copy of Kid Icarus.

[LV-426RS]

I also agree with the copying of out of print/out of stock, games. By out of stock I don't mean if ebgames just happens to sell out of splinter cell. I mean once it is not printed any longer and then all of the stock is sold.

[The Cheapest Ass Gamer]

You know, CD sales skyrocketed after Napster was introduced, and for good reason. Most people who download music will actually buy the music that they really like. For many (not all, though), it's essentially a way of "sampling" the music. I always buy CDs after I've downloaded a couple of tracks and liked them. IMHO, the only artists/bands that have to fear falling CD sales are the ones that aren't good enough for good sales.

With games, the same can't be said. You need a mod-chip (well, except with Dreamcast), which requires you to pull apart your console and solder wires. Not only that, a game isn't divided up into tracks like a CD, so once you get a "sample," you've gotten the whole game. So the "guy who wants to make sure he only buys good stuff" scenario is not possible here. You need to be serious about pirating games to actually do it.

^^^My 2 cents^^^

[chunk]

You know, CD sales skyrocketed after Napster was introduced, and for good reason. Most people who download music will actually buy the music that they really like. For many (not all, though), it's essentially a way of "sampling" the music. I always buy CDs after I've downloaded a couple of tracks and liked them. IMHO, the only artists/bands that have to fear falling CD sales are the ones that aren't good enough for good sales.

With games, the same can't be said. You need a mod-chip (well, except with Dreamcast), which requires you to pull apart your console and solder wires. Not only that, a game isn't divided up into tracks like a CD, so once you get a "sample," you've gotten the whole game. So the "guy who wants to make sure he only buys good stuff" scenario is not possible here. You need to be serious about pirating games to actually do it.

^^^My 2 cents^^^

The "guy who wants to make sure he only buys good stuff" is possible with games. Many times the copied version is crippled. One drawback is that you definately can't play a copied version of a game at a friend's house. Also, there are "trainers" released for games which are essentially samples of the games.

Also, most consoles do not require solder-in mod-chip to play copied software. Dreamcast is one notable example where many games were crippled due to the size limitation of normal cd-rs. Another example is Gamecube which can play software over a network but not from a burned disc (this results in long loading times and sometimes glitches). In fact, I'm thinking about setting up my gamecube to play copied games for the very reason of sampling them because nintendo makes it very difficult to try games out (very few demos). There is also the Saturn and Playstation, neither of which require mod-chips. In fact, the ONLY two consoles that I can think of where you need a mod-chip to play copied games are PS2 and Xbox.

I don't think your argument holds any water whatsoever. In fact, I know that I have observed the "napster effect" in my life since I started playing copied software. After I started playing copied software I was introduced to many more franchises and genres that I would never have taken the $50 risk to try out (although now a days its more like a $30 risk). As a result there are many more games that I am interested in and I buy a lot more games (both new games and games that I copied but loved so much that I have to own the original).

Take the Shenmue series for example. I first copied this game for my dreamcast because I wanted to try it out. I wasn't expecting much; in fact, I hated the first 30 minutes of it. But since it was free I decided to play a little more (if I was playing at a kiosk I definately would have walked away and a demo wouldn't give you more than 30 min). It turns out that I really loved the game so I downloaded the second one also. I loved the second game too. So I bought the Shenmue I and Shenmue II for dreamcast. I also bought Shenmue II for Xbox when it came out just for the movie that comes with it (I don't even own an Xbox). This is exactly the same phenomenon that you are talking about with music and I think that many other people that play copied games have similar sentiments.

[BigDirty]

I'm finally going to chime in and drop my couple of pesos on the topic at hand:

Downloading commercial CDs for free- Wrong
Pirating/Downloading Games- Wrong

The record industry crippled itself by becoming a "victim" of technology. The RIAA and the major labels did not adapt soon enough to handle changes in the distribution of music, as well as the abilities of the public to use the music that they have purchased. The public has been spoiled by the "free" downloading of music, and has a hard time accepting what are new, and very suitable comprimises.

The game, and any software industry has always been affected by piracy. It's very easy to make a "clean" copy of a game, especially back in the Commodore 64 and DOS days, where it was almost as simple as typing "COPY". While forms of media for games have advanced, so has consumer copying abilities.

The price tag of any media product reflects the cost to the producer of the product. On a CD, you have more people to pay than just the artist that performs the song. You have the session musicians, songwriters, the recording engineers, studio costs, layout people, printing/pressing people, distribution, and retail. It takes quite a large number of people to get the CD in your hands. The same goes for games, with an even larger staff for design, programming, testing, sound, and tons of other aspects.

As far as the sampling argument is concerded, products like the new Napster, itunes, Gamefly, Netflix, etc. allow you to sample as many games, movies, music, at a reasonable rate. If you can't spring the ~$25 month, well then most likely you won't be buying the product anyway. Yes some of these services aren't unlimited reaching, but if you are looking for something specific, for argument's sake let's say Buckner and Garcia's Pac-Man Fever, you most likely aren't looking to sample it, you are looking to own it, so pay the $12 for the CD.

[E-Z-B]

BD - what are you thoughts on games that aren't for sale anymore on the NES or SNES for example? Is it wrong to download these games as well? The company's not selling it anymore, thus programmers aren't getting anymore royalties from it.

[BigDirty]

BD - what are you thoughts on games that aren't for sale anymore on the NES or SNES for example? Is it wrong to download these games as well? The company's not selling it anymore, thus programmers aren't getting anymore royalties from it.

I would say as long as someone still owns the copyright, or the rights to the IP that it is based on, it is wrong. The downloading of old games can be prohibitive of some type of collection re-release, like the Sonic Mega Collection, Namco Musuems, Activision Collection, et al. While some companies may sit on the rights, like Nintendo has done on most of their 8-Bit IPs, they have even been getting into the NES re-releases with the E-Reader.

Even though the developers aren't making any money from the purchase of a used copy of an NES cart (SNES, Genesis, Arcade Boards/Games, et al), they aren't losing anything from potential re-release sales in the form of piracy.

There are several IPs from game companies that ceased to exist that are now listed as "abandonware", many being arcade games from the arcade heyday of the early 80s. Downloading these and playing them via some form of emulator isn't wrong, but the commercial redistribution of them would be. The same goes for several "dead" consoles, like the Vectrex.

The whole ROM situation is about potential, like a stick of dynamite has tons of potential energy, but none if the energy to release the potential energy is not released. Parallel that to ROMs of old games have potential profit making energy, but there needs to be energy exerted to release the profit making energy. I see downloading the ROMs kind of like if you were to steal someone's dynamite.

[E-Z-B]

BD - what are you thoughts on games that aren't for sale anymore on the NES or SNES for example? Is it wrong to download these games as well? The company's not selling it anymore, thus programmers aren't getting anymore royalties from it.

I would say as long as someone still owns the copyright, or the rights to the IP that it is based on, it is wrong. The downloading of old games can be prohibitive of some type of collection re-release, like the Sonic Mega Collection, Namco Musuems, Activision Collection, et al. While some companies may sit on the rights, like Nintendo has done on most of their 8-Bit IPs, they have even been getting into the NES re-releases with the E-Reader.

Even though the developers aren't making any money from the purchase of a used copy of an NES cart (SNES, Genesis, Arcade Boards/Games, et al), they aren't losing anything from potential re-release sales in the form of piracy.

There are several IPs from game companies that ceased to exist that are now listed as "abandonware", many being arcade games from the arcade heyday of the early 80s. Downloading these and playing them via some form of emulator isn't wrong, but the commercial redistribution of them would be. The same goes for several "dead" consoles, like the Vectrex.

The whole ROM situation is about potential, like a stick of dynamite has tons of potential energy, but none if the energy to release the potential energy is not released. Parallel that to ROMs of old games have potential profit making energy, but there needs to be energy exerted to release the profit making energy. I see downloading the ROMs kind of like if you were to steal someone's dynamite.

Excellent analysis, BD. Although it sucks for us when they sit on their IP rights, that's the law whether we like it or not.

[digioverload]

I'm sure a vast majority of gamers have done one or both, but are there any differences between the two?
There may not be a difference between downloading one or the other, but the results of doing so are very different.

Do you feel guilty about doing one, while the other is acceptable in your mind? Why?
I only download a song or a game if there was no way I would have bought it anyway, so I never feel guilty about it. There has never been a time that I downloaded anything that I would have bought if I couldn't have gotten it for free. Because of this, nobody lost any money.
However, if I did replace buying with downloading, I would only feel slightly guilty about downloading muisc I would have bought while I would feel very guilty for doing the same with games. This is because music artists make butt-loads of money from other things like getting music videos on TV and playing at concerts. File sharing is more like free advertising for music artists. Game developers get almost all their profits from selling the game itself, and I realy doubt that everytime someone downloads a game instead of buying it they later like the game enough to buy enough game figurines to negate the loss.

If pirating games was as quick and easy as downloading music, do you think game sales would suffer?
Possibly. It could help or hurt, although it would probably hurt.
Even though music is now shared over the internet, music artist are still filthy rich because the people that download their songs get interested in them. Many people buy music because they dowloaded other songs from that band and liked it. This could happen with videogames too and help them to obtain a much larger audience. The only problem with this theory is that while music CDs are cheap, videogames are super expensive. A person that already has some songs on their computer might not mind paying $12 to pay for them, but if they already have a game for free it's much more unlikely that they'll pay $40 for it. Downloading games causes more lost sales' dollars than downloading music anyway. The high prices will also make downloading games more appetizing than downloading music.

Even though the developers aren't making any money from the purchase of a used copy of an NES cart (SNES, Genesis, Arcade Boards/Games, et al), they aren't losing anything from potential re-release sales in the form of piracy.
Huh? Maybe I just don't understand what you're saying.
Let's say one person buys a used copy of an old game and another person downloads it. If that game is rereleased, the person that bought the used copy will buy the new release while the one that downloaded it won't? Is that what you're saying? That is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Could you clarify what you mean? I'm curious becasue you made several good points.


This is the best topic ever! Non-stop arguing! I will no longer skip over any forum. But seriously, why is this in the Game Club forum? I'm lucky to have ever found it.

[BigDirty]

Huh? Maybe I just don't understand what you're saying.
Let's say one person buys a used copy of an old game and another person downloads it. If that game is rereleased, the person that bought the used copy will buy the new release while the one that downloaded it won't? Is that what you're saying? That is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Could you clarify what you mean? I'm curious becasue you made several good points.


The point is that on the used copy of the game, the proper people got the royalties at some point in that cartirige's lifecycle (assuming that it is a licesned copy and not a pirate edition). While the person who bought the used copy may not have any intentions of buying a rerelease, the rights for the FAIR use of that copy of the IP are the purchaser's.

However, the person who downloads the game, as opposed to purchasing it, has the ability to play it, but does not hold any rights for the FAIR use of the IP. All things considered, this person stole the use of the IP, whether it be from the original release, or a re-release.

Hopefully, that clears things up for you.

[roland13x]

From a person who has worked in the music industry, and now currently works in the games industry, there is no valid point to the sort of piracy that has been discussed. And I don't know where you got your facts from, but CD sales have declined 7-10% every year since '98. It's hard to feel bad for multi-million selling bands, but the 75k or 100k bands get hit even harder. And there isn't much else as demoralizing as hearing someone download or copy a game you just spent 8 months working 60+ hour weeks on.

There is a reason why new games are $50. Games have always been around this price point, and just consider how much more content is involved. The value per dollar should be obvious. As for music, how about we just all stop listening to all the disposable so you'd stop bitching about its lack of quality. Congrats BigDirty for making some sense in a forum gone mad.

[digioverload]

Hopefully, that clears things up for you.
Oh, ok. You were talking about legality and not whether the effects on the industry were better or worse. Thanks for the clarification. ^_^ I understand what you were saying now.

[punqsux]

As for music, how about we just all stop listening to all the disposable so you'd stop bitching about its lack of quality.

=D> best point ever

[chosen1s]

Game manufacturers don't deserve to be ripped off because they actually make a good attempt to stop piracy.

So...your neighbor who locks his door every day deserves to have his stuff kept safe, but if you leave your door unlocked when you leave the house you deserve to have someone take all of your stuff and you feel that they are justified in doing so?

Where do you live??? :lol:

[rarson]

How much does it cost to press a cd? A dollar? What percentage of cd sales actually go to the people who put the REAL work into the music (the artist)? How much money would the RIAA lose on piracy, versus how much they spend on taking individuals to court?

First of all, as other people have mentioned, console backups are cumbersome or crippled. The main reason I haven't modded my PS2 or bought a swap disc (you don't need a chip to play some copied PS2 games) is that there is cost involved in that and there is risk involved. I decided I'd rather just buy the real original games for cheap and spend a little extra than to go to the trouble of modifying my brand-new box only to play copies of games that probably won't work on PS3 anyway.

As far as computer games go, it's much easier to copy them, and while I have, I've yet to entirely play through a game that I haven't bought. If it's a good game, then I find it my obligation to purchase a legitimate copy of the game. If it's not then it gets deleted. It's a way to sample the entire product. Usually I won't even have the time or attention span to come remotely close to finishing a game that I downloaded.

I for one am tired of feeling ripped off for paying full price for a game that I didn't really like, or worse yet, a game that comes out of the box completely unfunctioning. I paid $40 for Midnight Club 2 for the pc and I have yet to play it because the game just doesn't plain work in Windows 98 (despite listing it as compatible) and the laptop I have XP on has an incompatible soundcard. That really pisses me off (and Rockstar had yet to release any sort of patch or acknowledge that there even was a problem last I checked).

The music argument is so stupid it's ridiculous. First of all, the RIAA needs to stop spending money suing people and start spending money on finding a way to use the net as a new method of music distribution. Secondly, cds have been way overpriced for years. And finally, if anyone truly cares about the quality of music, then like myself, you will find that mp3's are pointless other than for archival purposes. I can hear the difference between a 160k mp3 and a cd on crappy pc speakers; in my car I can tell the difference between a 192k mp3 and a cd, and anything bigger than 192k and you might as well save yourself the trouble and store the file as a wav. Simple truth is if the music good enough to listen to then I buy the cd. Mp3's for me exist only so that I can have my entire collection to listen to on my laptop where the speakers suck worse than the file quality anyway.

[Ben_F]

I for one am tired of feeling ripped off for paying full price for a game that I didn't really like, or worse yet, a game that comes out of the box completely unfunctioning. I paid $40 for Midnight Club 2 for the pc and I have yet to play it because the game just doesn't plain work in Windows 98 (despite listing it as compatible) and the laptop I have XP on has an incompatible soundcard. That really pisses me off (and Rockstar had yet to release any sort of patch or acknowledge that there even was a problem last I checked).

The music argument is so stupid it's ridiculous. First of all, the RIAA needs to stop spending money suing people and start spending money on finding a way to use the net as a new method of music distribution. Secondly, cds have been way overpriced for years. And finally, if anyone truly cares about the quality of music, then like myself, you will find that mp3's are pointless other than for archival purposes. I can hear the difference between a 160k mp3 and a cd on crappy pc speakers; in my car I can tell the difference between a 192k mp3 and a cd, and anything bigger than 192k and you might as well save yourself the trouble and store the file as a wav. Simple truth is if the music good enough to listen to then I buy the cd. Mp3's for me exist only so that I can have my entire collection to listen to on my laptop where the speakers suck worse than the file quality anyway.

I hate Rockstar PC games, they dont really ever hardly release patches, and when they do, sometimes they wont ever release another one. The Vice City Patch (there has only been 1 ever) doesent even fix all the problems people complained to them about.

Thats why i encode all my mp3s in 192k and up. Most of them are 320 just so they sound good in the car real loud.

[BigDirty]

How much does it cost to press a cd? A dollar? What percentage of cd sales actually go to the people who put the REAL work into the music (the artist)? How much money would the RIAA lose on piracy, versus how much they spend on taking individuals to court?


Actually the real people behind the CD most of the time aren't the ones that are pictured on the cover and labeled "the artist". There are the songwriters, session musicians, studio engineers, etc. etc. that are the ones who make the music, a large percentage of the "artists", especially those in cookie-cutter pop, are no more than just a marketing tool, it's their image that sells the CDs. Also when they co-write a song, some of the co-writing is, change that note, because it's out of my vocal range, or other petty differences.

I just have to make my point that piracy, along with the ignorance of the masses, is what really hurts the TRUE artists.

[video_gamer324]

Game manufacturers don't deserve to be ripped off because they actually make a good attempt to stop piracy.

So...your neighbor who locks his door every day deserves to have his stuff kept safe, but if you leave your door unlocked when you leave the house you deserve to have someone take all of your stuff and you feel that they are justified in doing so?

Where do you live??? :lol:

If you reread my original post, you'll see that I never say that I feel justified in downloading music. I simply state that the music industry has been careless overall in preventing file sharing, and because of that, I hope that they have learned their lesson so they can reduce the traffic of their music. Using your house analogy, someone who locks their front door and is responsible does not deserve to have people breaking into their house and stealing stuff. On the other hand, if you leave your front door unlocked when you leave, you don't "deserve" to have anything stolen, but if anything is stolen, it's because you were careless. You deserve the lesson learned so you don't act carelessly in the future, not so much the stuff that was stolen from you.

[eldad9]

http://www.downhillbattle.org/

[defender]

I for once agree with scrubking...the robin hood effect is what people use to justify piracy...even the name piracy is considered a cool word in the usa.
This is why I always call them thieves....its a true word with only negative connotations.

THe one problem with the robin hood effect and people think they only steal from the major or the artist is that they are blind to the fact that their neighbors are effected. I work on a block with 5 music stores and they are all having bad business these last few years...so now they dont hire staff..current staff doenst get bonuses or raises anymore. All the people in the supply chain are out of work too...truckers and shippers. Places like Tower, Sam Goody, and other retailers are just going out of business. That's less jobs for the young workers at the mall. That also has a trickle effect itself. So the irony is that kids complain they cant get a job at the local mall yet they are home stealing as much as they can. Also music itself is suffering...notice how crappy the top20 is? I think its because the majors cant afford to take chances on new music...they go with what sells.

I gotta end this rant and get some work done.

[defender]

omg...I just went to that link downhillbattle...what a shame!

And to think that 30 year ago our parents...some of your grandparents were protesting for Civil Rights and to end war....

kids today are protesting to get free music!

[eldad9]

Copyright infringement is NOT theft. Again: Copyright infringement is NOT theft. As much as the RIAA would like everybody to believe otherwise.

[vherub]

any argument that is based on the idea that people should be able to get stuff that is privately owned for free might as well accept the fact that that logic leads straight into slavery or communism. the truth is the music industry has every right to sue any and all individuals that is getting their content for free that should be paid for. you can argue about property rights, get philosophical or realize that in capitalism, goods and services are exchange for something of value, not taken for nothing.

BUT, as mch as filesharing is not a legitimate means of getting music, it should be. rather than pursuing filesharers as criminals, the music industry should be embracing filesharing for what it is and the potential it represents: free advertising more powerful than the radio and more intrusive than television. how do people know what they want to listen to, what they like or what they might get into, you borrow your friends cd, or you go to a concert or maybe, in that rare case, the radio plays something good that has not been played to death. the internet allows music companies to reach out to all the disillusioned, pop-sick music lovers out there who are good consumers in want of good product. i for one have downloaded hundreds of songs in the past 5 years and in that time have spent far far more than i had before or i otherwise would have because i found the music that i like that i enjoy and that i am willing to buy

so how is this different with games, with games, there is no such thing as a backlist, that is, a game is hot for a few months, maybe comes out as a hits title a year later and then its gone, and its certainly gone by the time the next console gen comes out or pcs are significantly upgraded down the line, similarly, with the exception of a few celebrity games designers, there is no "artist" that one follows and enjoys i games, so downloading one game, will not have a correlation of buying other. again, my point is not that it is right, but t can be used as a ridiculously powerful marketing tool and that tool just is not effective as video games or computer games. would companies benefit from releasing an old game for free when the sequel comes out, i think so, because it will get more gamers excited about the upcoming game or people who missed out earlier, but if you take it into your own hands, you are in the wrong- even if you feel the publisher has their heads up their asses

[eldad9]

The reason the RIAA want file sharing gone, of course, is not that they are afraid their own music will be shared; rather, they're afraid indie music will get more exposure.

Imagine a world where musical tastes are formed according to merit, not clearchannel...

[SneakyPenguin]

I do both.....sorta.

I have dled music because i think its stupid to spend $10+ for a cd when i only like one song. i dont dl cds and if i like enough songs on a cd ill buy the whole thing. im just not spending 15 dollars for one song i think is "ok".

and i dont pirate games per se. i use roms. i dont use roms for curent systems (MAME excluded). the earliest i use roms is snes and genesis, and only for hard to find games that i dont feel like spending a fortune on at ebay. i mostly dl roms to expand my horizons and try out new stuff. like ET for Atari 2600. i couldnt resist.

[CaptainObviousXl]

ill copy music not games. The reson is 25$ isnt a good price for 13 tracks in 78 min. however a video game for 10-50$ with 10-100 hours of play is worth the money.

[poormojo]

To add something to what Defender said above:

Yeah, a lot of music stores are suffering rigth now and closing. But that isn't necessarily related to Downloaders/Pirates/Thieves, whatever.

I used to manage a music store and, subsequently, spent a lto fo time bullshitting with label reps. The music industry has done a great job of shooting itself in the foot over and over again this past couple years.

A small list of things they've done:

--Raised the avergae price for new CDs by as much as fve dollars.

--Drastically slashed their budgets with regards to finding and developing new talent, and developing their B-list talent.

--Drastically slashed advertising and promotions for all but "tried and true" and hotlist artists.

They decided three years ago to basically just bunker down and spend the money on only the most popular artists they had, and to skip any deviation ro exploration (even more than they had been.0

So they lost money. This was a shitty plan. And now they're blaming it on Pirates/etc, and suing people.

Are File swappers buying fewer albums, maybe, maybe not. Maybe they're just buying albumsmor ecarefully, but in the same volume. I know I am. I download music from an album before I buy it to sample it, if I like it I'll buy the album. If it sucks I delete the files. I have way less buyer's remorse these days.

[CaptainObviousXl]

tru dat =D>

[CaptainObviousXl]

that down hill thing almost makes me cry. The record companys are so selfcentered. :cry:

[camoor]

The copyright system is broken. It's meant to encourage new artistic works. But instead it just became a cash machine for recording companies that offer almost no innovation in their quest for profit. Special-interest groups like the RIAA have been exploiting the system for years, clearing the path for record labels to monopolize all avenues to the public and make bands sell over all their rights to get access to these public forums.

Right now, games are still more of a level playing field with third party rights, much more variety, and much more value placed in each video game (especially because games can be resold or traded). Hold onto these rights ppl, because the future is looking grim EVERYONE SHOULD READ THIS ARTICLE ------> http://curmudgeongamer.com/article.php?story=20040113221322445

[camoor]

I have boycotted all RIAA products. I know I am only one person against a multitude, but what I choose to do is 100% legal and I can get by with internet radio (ahhhh internet radio :)))

[eldad9]

Just check the RIAA radar ( http://www.magnetbox.com/riaa/ ) to see which CDs are RIAA free.

[thatstoobad]

i read through most of these points, and would like to state my opinion on the topic. not so much that anyone will care, but just because i am right.

downloading music or games or movies even are all very similar, and the same set of rules applies to them. it's ok to download music/games if:

1 - the cd/game is out of print.
2 - the cd/game is not available in your country.
3 - a "try before you buy" situation (assuming that if you like what you try, you go out and buy).

that's about it. any cds/games that are currently available should not be downloaded in place of being bought. on the other hand, downloading is a great way to find out if you will enjoy a cd (or even a game) before purchasing it. it's easier to rely on reviews of games than it is on cds, because it seems like most of the people that review cds like horrible music (the great reviews of horrible albums such as outkast, the yeah yeah yeahs, and any other "hot" and/or "new" band come to mind), but usually people who review games are pretty on target. that being said, if you do download a song/game that is currently available, and you enjoy it and listen to/play it often, you should go out and buy that cd/game. no so much because the law should require you to, but just because that if you do enjoy it, you should want your money to go to something worthwhile.

on another note, there are those people who whine about "there's only one good song, the rest of the cd is crap" or whatever. i would like to go on record stating that if you listen to a song by some horrible band/artist/person/whatever, and you know that it is their only good song, you are a loser. there is enough good music available that you don't have to waste your time listening to some half assed band who made one "good" song. if the band can't write more than one good song, then don't listen to them. they suck. they shouldn't be allowed to make music anymore. instead, they should be set on fire.

i propose that there should only be 10 or so cds that come out every month, at the most. that way, all the bad music that comes out would be cut down. the oversaturation of every genre would die out, and everything would be ok. computers are killing music, but not because you can download things for free, but because they have made it so much esaier for some stupid kid to get together with his stupid friends and start a band called something like "the ashes from the embers" or "a winter time denial" and whine about how his mom wouldn't let him go to the skating rink last friday night to meet up with his 14 year old girlfriend. bad music needs to stop, and it will only stop if people stop buying it. unfortunately, that doesn't look to be anytime soon.

so, in closing, stop downloading things you knuckleheads.

[Venent]

Guys,

I don't really feel like writing a huge post for this subject, but I'll let you know some things that you may not have considered. My father has been a record exec for RCA Records, BMG, Sony (just had his contract bought out last Saturday) for over 30 years, so I do have a different perspective on this subject.

Have record companies been short-sighted? YES.
Have record companies been slow to react to downloading music? YES.
Have you been overcharged for cds? Well this one is difficult to answer. When you consider everything that used to create a cd, the salaries of everyone involved (not just musicians, but sales and marketing staff), the marketing of the cd, the money that has to be paid to Best Buy, Circuit City, etc. to put the cd on their so-called 'Power Wall' and end-caps, among other things. This is where a large portion of the money goes. The artist doesn't make that huge percentage off of each cd. In many cases it's pennies.
Other places the money goes, development costs for other artists. Putting out cds for artists that will not sell much. There are thousands of cds put out by each company, each year. Very few of those are profitable, but the public gets diversity, and eventually, if developed properly, will be profitable for the company. A perfect example of this is Dave Matthews. This is no longer taking place, with very limited budgets, you are getting fewer choices.
Another thing killing the industry: When you pick up a Best Buy, Circuit City, Target ad, what is the first section you look for? Guessing by this site, it's games, but for the majority of the public, it's dvd's. Ten years ago, cd's covered 5+ pages in these advertisements, now it's barely a third of a page. My point is, that encroachment by other types of media have also taken a bite out of the music industry's pie. There are only so many dollars that you are going to spend in a typical month, and most people don't use them on cd's (at least not any more).

Each year, the top grossing album of the year is much less than the previous year. Each year the music landscape is more and more pop dominated (this is what is a sure seller).

The music industry won't die, but it's in a tremendous recession. Your choices will be fewer, the quality of music will decline, and when you get older you'll talk about the good old days. These things are cyclical, and eventually there will be a new movement, a new artist that will lead a new charge, and will hopefully bring change for a little while.

I'm not telling anyone to stop downloading music. It's a pandora's box of sorts. It's too late to tell people to stop. The music industry has to adapt and develop new strategies, but this can take many years. I'm just glad that my father is now in the twilight of his career, because things will continue to get worse before they get better.

Just my 2cents.

[Ecks]

Just something similar I'd like to share since I've seen it argued in comic book forums I frequent (I also have a large collection of them).

Some argue since a comic isn't "in print" or "locally available" downloading scans is "okay" since they're "not hurting anyone", same argument I've heard about ROMs, etc. You are making a copy of a physical entity, both are wrong.

If you really want to go play Atari 2600 games, why not go get an old 2600 at a flea market and a stack of cartridges for 50 cents each? Trying to justify it because the game isn't "current generation" is just you justifying it to yourself so it's "okay".

You may say "I can't go buy old arcade machines!", and you're right. But they were never manufactured for home ownership really, not unless you had a coupel grand to drop. Just because you CAN copy games/download ROMs/doesn't mean you should.

BTW, I'm not saying I'm an absolute saint - but I've been a gamer since the TI-99/4A and every system I owned I bought tons of games for. I have (an unmodded) PS2 currently and over 150 original games for it. I do wish sometimes I kept all those old games though for other systems. ;)

[eldad9]

The music industry won't die, but it's in a tremendous recession. Your choices will be fewer, the quality of music will decline, and when you get older you'll talk about the good old days. These things are cyclical, and eventually there will be a new movement, a new artist that will lead a new charge, and will hopefully bring change for a little while.

Hopefully, that artist will have nothing to do with RIAA members.

After seeing what the RIAA is doing with its money to hurt honest customers and people in general, there's no way I'm giving any RIAA members any of my money.

Riaa Radar ( http://www.magnetbox.com/riaa/ ) lets you know whether any CD is RIAA infected. CD Baby ( http://www.cdbaby.com/ ) is a store that only deals with non-RIAA music, and has quite a bit of music to sample so you can make an informed decision.

[BigDirty]

If you really want to go play Atari 2600 games, why not go get an old 2600 at a flea market and a stack of cartridges for 50 cents each? Trying to justify it because the game isn't "current generation" is just you justifying it to yourself so it's "okay".

You may say "I can't go buy old arcade machines!", and you're right. But they were never manufactured for home ownership really, not unless you had a coupel grand to drop. Just because you CAN copy games/download ROMs/doesn't mean you should.

I completely agree with you, but I also want to add to the fray, that if you want to play atari/intellivision games, there are now collections that allow you to do so on your modern generation console as well. The Activision Anthology and Intellevision Lives! are great examples of how you can achieve this, even WITHOUT an old console.

As far as old arcade games, there are countless legal collections that feature everything from PONG to Street Fighter II (insert edition of choice). They're available across consoles, as well as PC, and even Namco has their own built into a stand-alone unit as well. Also, there are several companes selling the roms on an INDIVIDUAL basis as well.

There are several LEGAL avenues to travel down, there really aren't any reasons to be attempting to justify the use of ROMs.

[eldad9]

If you really want to go play Atari 2600 games, why not go get an old 2600 at a flea market and a stack of cartridges for 50 cents each?

Because then you'd have another box of stuff to take with you whenever you move (like I do now).

Sometimes owning software which can run on different machines is preferable to owning physical media which can only run on one type of machine.

Isn't it great how all those Infocom games I bought can run on pretty much any hardware, like a Mac or a Palm or Psion handheld or even a Dreamcast? It would be great to also have the original packaging (with the 'feelies') if it was still available and could disappear when you didn't want it and reappear if you did. Unfortunately, physical objects don't quite behave this way.

[eldad9]

As far as old arcade games, there are countless legal collections that feature everything from PONG to Street Fighter II (insert edition of choice). They're available across consoles, as well as PC, and even Namco has their own built into a stand-alone unit as well. Also, there are several companes selling the roms on an INDIVIDUAL basis as well.


Those collections really don't cover everything, and sometimes they have glaring bugs that make the games behave differently or even bigger problems (like the huge reset buttons on one of those 10-in-1s (Atari? Activision?).

But I actually wanted to ask you about those "several companies" selling roms. As far as I know, there's only one ( http://www.starroms.com/ ). What are the others?

[Ecks]

BigDirty, you're right, just forgot to include that in my message. I've got Activision Anthology for the PS2, and some other games, like Prince of Persia, even include the old game on it.

One other knock against emulation, is most people that are "into" it download EVERY ROM in existance, including Game Boy Advance, which isn't justifiable in any sense, as those games are still sitting there on shelves!

[Ecks]

It would be great to also have the original packaging (with the 'feelies') if it was still available and could disappear when you didn't want it and reappear if you did. Unfortunately, physical objects don't quite behave this way.

You're right, but when you choose to get rid of something, you don't have it anymore. I recently sold a few hundred CD's to a used record store, and they're gone - I can't listen to them anymore. (And I didn't back them up or rip them - I rarely listen to music anymore.)

I'm not saying emulation isn't neat and convienent, and I did try that with Infocom games (but found it difficult to play without all the stuff they always included in the boxes), I'm just saying it's not right.

My argument is, people can copy games, ROMs, whatever, so long as they admit they're doing something shady - it's the people that try to make a point justifying it and saying "this is the right thing to do!" The internet makes copying things quick and easy and thoughtless. Comic book scans, books converted to eBooks format, movies and tv shows, porn, all those are being copied too. I'm sure there are some other things I'm not thinking of too.

[suprsaiyanMAX]

Ten years ago, cd's covered 5+ pages in these advertisements, now it's barely a third of a page. My point is, that encroachment by other types of media have also taken a bite out of the music industry's pie.

Maybe cd's filled out ads 10 years ago because there were no DVDs and video games came in cart form and weren't nearly as mainstream as they are now. There were also hardly any CD burners available to the common public, put simply CDs were the relatively young technology that people wanted a piece of and that's no longer the case. Still, Saying that other media is "encroaching" on the music industry is a little rash. You cannot fault other companies and industries for making and creating new technology. It is the way the way the modern world works. I bet people in the radio business got kinda pissed when TV rolled around, but are we going to say that we don't want to watch TV? The music industry was responible for oversaturating the technology market with the format of CDs to begin with, by the mid to late 90s everything was a CD. Other industries looked past that and advanced the technology, the music industry did not advance with them and has since been left in the cold.

[BigDirty]

But I actually wanted to ask you about those "several companies" selling roms. As far as I know, there's only one ( http://www.starroms.com/ ). What are the others?

Hanaho/Capcom have a package together for owners of Arcade PCs. It's a limited distribution, but still another method of delivery.

[eldad9]

Ten years ago, cd's covered 5+ pages in these advertisements, now it's barely a third of a page. My point is, that encroachment by other types of media have also taken a bite out of the music industry's pie.

Maybe cd's filled out ads 10 years ago because there were no DVDs and video games came in cart form and weren't nearly as mainstream as they are now.

10 years ago, CD players were relatively new, and many people felt a need to buy the music they owned ALL OVER AGAIN in a new format. Right now, only new releases are new on CD formats. (and some of them are not even CDs but try to trick you to thinking they are so that you buy them - like any "protected" music disc).

[eldad9]

I'm not saying emulation isn't neat and convienent, and I did try that with Infocom games (but found it difficult to play without all the stuff they always included in the boxes), I'm just saying it's not right.


After the first games, Infocom added information in the package that was ESSENTIAL to complete the games (coordinates, maps of catacombs, etc).

Some of the official rereleases either missed this information completely or had it in a digital-only format that left a lot to be desired, quality-wise.

Ironically, it was left up to the fans of these games to provide the necessary information ( http://infodoc.plover.net/ ).

[magilacudy]

omg...I just went to that link downhillbattle...what a shame!

And to think that 30 year ago our parents...some of your grandparents were protesting for Civil Rights and to end war....

kids today are protesting to get free music!

It's a damn shame.. maybe our country needs to get involved in an international war to get things into perspective again.. oh wait.. =(

No matter if its games or music, this country was founded on the basis of capitalism and self-gain whether personal or in business is going to change that... I'm sure someones mentioned this but this isn't the first time a recording industry has reacted towards technology *cough* VCRs and video tapes, audio cassettes cough* Cd-Rs even the TV when it first came out (because it threatened to steal the movie going audience).

I really don't think there is a way to stop 'piracy' or copyright infringment. They're basically trying to stop the innate human desire to get things more easily and at less effort and cost. Of course, it would be easy for someone to just go steal a neighbor's car, or grab a CD off the shelf or what, but those are tangible, physical and therefore generally accepted morally wrong.

But..what are these bits floating around electromagnetically stored and easily sent around? You can't make a true analogy to anything else really, because it is unlike anything before it. I guess that's why theres so much debate with cloning and stem cells and such but thats best left for another forum...

My point is that the game industry is dealing better with piracy than their RIAA counterparts, in that they've learned that nothing is going to stop piracy, the best you can do is just reduce it through encryption or special editions or addons. Suing everyone in sight isn't going to serve any purpose but to anger the very people you're trying to get buy your product. But then again, thats the country we live in these days, for better or worse...

[Wshakspear]

Ive played roms of GBA games, thus taking out rental stores (of which i worked at one before), to figure out wether i would like the game or not. Ive downloaded a few snes games, like Chrono Trigger and Earthbound to find out if they are worth the 30-50 investment for a used copy (please, dont mention the ps1 version...I dont care). I have the nes games Bubble Bobble 2, excitebike, star tropics 1 & 2 and...something else, on my PPC emulated perfectly.

I also OWN way too many games. 99% of my DC games are real version, and only Ikaruga and Evil Twin are backups (i have ikaruga on my GC now though). I have a ton of Xbox, GC and older system games that i try and keep all the box and info with. Im a collector. I want those boxes and manuals. i want the import of Shenmue 2 that didnt come over here on DC.

I know its not legally right...but honestly i dont care. I play games i like, and some i do so through malicious ways, but most often they end up being bought or deleted.as for music, i do buy cd's, and i barely d/l songs unless they are Live, euro only, or only online (Smashing Pumpkins 5 cd farewell set).

Oh and i d/l anime from Japan. Like One piece and witch hunter robin (before it was over here). BUT i then buy the dvd's. I have the WHR box set (with shot glass and cd) and the 2nd volume.

I could be a cheat who ONLY d/l's things, but i only do that for certain items at certain times.

Is it legally wrong? Yes.
Does that bother me? no.

[Venent]

suprsaiyanMAX,

You and I basically agree, but I believe you are taking the word media to mean the physical media the music is placed on, while I am referring the various forms of entertainment. People are spending their money on other types of media (movies, video games, etc.), not cds. DVDs gave consumers a much better product than VHS tapes, on a much better physical medium. People are buying movies, although they have always had the opportunity with VHS and laserdisc, at a greater rate than ever before. Video games are also being purchased at an astronomical rate, unlike in the past. The youth of today are not as interested in purchasing albums, cassettes, cds, as they have been in the past. There are other forms of entertainment that have captured their interest. I'm not talking about cds killing lp's or cassettes. I'm suggesting that the fight for the consumer dollar is being lost by the music industry to other markets. Other forms of entertainment are gaining a larger and larger share of the pie. Your radio vs. television arguement illustrates my point to a reasonable extent.

As far as advancing the technology beyond cds, there are new forms of physical media (super audio cd, released by sony or audio dvd, released by pioneer). The question is, how quickly will people adopt this new technology? Will consumers be willing to spend money on this or will this gradually fade out? eldad9 made an excellent point, how many times will people be willing to repurchase their collection? As far as advancing technology or the way the music industry handles the internet (mp3's, wav's, etc.), well they have been changing a glacial pace, and music companies will continue to suffer until they come up with a successful plan.

[eldad9]

I'm sure someones mentioned this but this isn't the first time a recording industry has reacted towards technology *cough* VCRs and video tapes, audio cassettes cough* Cd-Rs even the TV when it first came out (because it threatened to steal the movie going audience).


That's a bit of an understatement.

The VCR is to the American film producer and the American public as the Boston Strangler is to the woman home alone.
-- Jack Valenti, MPAA, testifying before congress in 1982.

[KingDox]

I don't pirate games because I can get them for cheap, I mean a game that used to cost 50 bucks costs 15 bucks at BB. That game will keep me happy for many hours, but if I want to buy a 5 year old Offspring cd I'm still not going to pay at least 13 bucks for it. Why no huge ass price drop for old cds ? That's one reason I don't feel bad about stealing music, plus stealing games is harder (kinda) because you have the threat of viruses. As far as I know it's impossible to get a virus from a mp3.

If the RIAA want to stop/slow down people getting music I have the perfect soulution for them. SACD, start selling ALL MUSIC on SACD for 15 bucks. SACD is way better then regular cds and even more so then mp3. But the RIAA is so slow to move that I'm sure we are going to wait at least 10 years before SACD becomes the norm.

[erniecars]

Thought Id add my 2cents

I "pirate" the crap out of entertainment media. I even developed some playstation modchips back in the day and sold them on my own website (somewhat regretibly).

Personally, I buy anything I like and delete anything i dont. Piracy for me is a way of discovering products that I would not otherwise even consider. I would never have purchased halflife for full retail a week after it came out if i had not pirated it first and discovered how cool it was. The same goes for many albums I have purchased. This is especially because I can tell the difference between a CD quality and MP3.

The bottom line is that if the music industry really feels that people downloading music they have not first paid for is hurting them, they should rethink their marketing strategy instead of just trying to scare people by sueing a few poor chumps. Lets be honest. The downloading isnt going to stop. Its just not. But I would be more inclined to buy an album if I hear it first so if they give me a way to do that legally, I swear I'll never download a song again. And the radio just isnt playing what I like and 30 second clips lick my balls.

Also, nobody complained about recording tv shows onto your vcr or tivo. Why isnt that illegal? Or recording a movie shown on tv? Or back when cassettes were popular, I never heard the word piracy when people were making copies. Its so lame to sue some kids cuz they are too poor to buy music.

As for games, demos can do the trick. If the demo isnt enough for you or you can move into a friends house just cuz they have a game you like so much you cant live without it, THE BUY IT. If it sucks, dont bother with it until its cheap. Theres always a way to get a game legally for cheap. Sometimes it just takes a few months or years to come down in price (stupid nintendo).

Sadly, too many games would never have been discovered if there was no piracy. Adobe Photoshop would not sell nearly as many copies if art students had not pirated it so they could learn it, in turn suggesting to the companies they end up working for that it is the tool to buy. Think about that. More than half the DVD movies I own are ones I downloaded and like so much i bought them but would have never known of them if it werent for piracy. More people would use linux if it werent for piracy. Many band would never have become so popular. Nobody would know how to use microsoft office so they would never want to use it so it wouldnt sell.

Ill probably get flamed like crazy for this by people who buy everything, but I have $0 in the bank and im unemployed, and yet I have made thousands of dollars for companies like microsoft and adobe by sharing software with people who would not otherwise know of it and therefore never use it or later buy it.

If there was no "piracy" or "theft" as they call it, then there would be less education and discovery and therefore less sales. Its simply economics.

Let the flames begin.

EDIT: I should also note that I am such a cheap ass, as so many of you are on this board, that even if i did pirate a cd or game, chances are that I wouldnt even buy it for half price or even consider buying it ever. That new outkast cd was IMO horrible. 2 good songs that have been overplayed. So if i had just gone out and bought that cd instead of checking a "pirated" copy out first, I would have been robbed of like $30 or whatever a double disc costs. Screw that. Still, If i never heard the album, I wouldnt have bought it anyway, cuz im such a cheap ass. MY POINT: If there is money to be made that isnt being made, it isnt with cheap ass downloaders who are the majority of the people downloading stuff anyway. I mean, how many of the mp3s on your hard drive do you actually listen to? Of the 4000+ i have, I listen to about 50 on a regular basis. Oh man. Looks like someone lost some serious dough on me huh (sarcastially). Time to clean my hard drive. Only 50 mp3s I listen to are paid for...

[Syncmaster]

I'm sorry guys, but I'm too busy downloading some Mp3's off the net and playing a shitty game called Altered beast on my Genesis emulator to write as long a message. (Do you people have a life... your messages are like, half a page long or more.... get a hobby).

So, on topic here... I will also ass my two cents just for those that care. My current position is sweet because I live in Canada... and in the beautiful country of Canada "Downloading" Stuff like mp3's IS NOT ILLEGAL! But... sharing is. So whatever I download off of the net or on Kazaa, I just put it away somewhere else other than My Shared Folder. For my point of view though... I say IT IS TRULY WRONG TO DOWNLOAD NEW... HEAR ME NOW... NEW!!!!! MOVIES AND GAMES. I HATE THAT!

People put time and effort into making quality entertainment for people, and then the stupid assholes and EXTREME cheapass's out there download it with a couple of clicks sometimes even before the product is on the big screen or in the Walmart.

As far as songs, if you just like a song or want to hear a song, thats fine to me... If the game is more than 5 years old, noone's really gonna make anymore money from it, that's fine too. BUT DON'T DOWNLOAD FULL CD'S AND SUCH, THAT'S NAUGHTY KIDS, JUST PURELY WRONG. The music industry is hard enough already (well, I know it is damn hard for canadians), dont make it worse.

So, that's it... and even though I just made fun of people for having no life and posting large ass opinions... It seems I have just joined them, But don't get me wrong, I have plenty hobbies... :)

[THPS]

I for one wish that downloading music and games will stop. My local record store which is down the street from me is closing due to lack of business. The reason is that most people download music for free. I would always buy CDs from there because they sold used ones, the had a great selection of imports and OOP CDs, and they had the best prices. I refuse to buy CDs elsewhere. They have one location which is about an hour away. Now I have to travel one hour just to buy a CD becuase people have to download music for free. Music stores will continue to close until there is a stop to downloading music. PEOPLE ARE LOSING JOBS!!!!!! Pretty soon, it will be impossible to buy a CD due to the fact that stores will no longer carry them since there is not as much of a demand for them since people download them for free. This will eventually lead to artists losing even more money than they already are. I think that artists will refuse to make new records due to the fact that they aren't getting any money from this.

I feel the same way about downloading games. Pretty soon, the same will probably happen to games as what has happened to music.

[Persain]

THPS
wrote
This will eventually lead to artists losing even more money than they already are.

artiists are loosing any money with downloading, most(not all) are paid a flat rate for a cd production which doesnt even cost $100K to make and the record compay wants to make millions off of it. most of the artists have allways made their money from concerts. places like walmart and best buy will always sell cds and record sales are actualy at an all time high, its just that the numbers arent increasing as fast as they used to. i personally have no problem with music, i dont see how it is fair to the consumer to expect to make over a million dollars from a less than 100k investment. (cds cost something like 25 cents to burn and ship to stores)(if 50k people buy a cd they have made their money back)


video games on the other hand cost quite a bit to produce and the return isnt on the same scale the musics is so when you pirate in print video games it really does hurt as the company may acutally loose money and then not make games. this is the bigest reason i see for not pirating games.

[stocker08]

i dont feel guilty about it because those are some rich bastards that make all the money anyways. do they really need more money?

[magilacudy]

Artists also make money off concerts, merchandising, live appearances, etc. What about the struggling musicians?! Well if they're going to make it to stardom, they're going to make it. If not, they they nothing. Piracy just makes the process go faster as people get tired of their music more efficiently =P

[red flare graf]

Some people way over do the music piracy thing. I've had people brag to me online about their collection of 2500+ mp3s and whatnot.. while I download maybe one or two songs a month. My primary music source are broadcast stations blaring from the speakers in my car.. that's what music stations like that are there for.

[Battousai1002]

I download quite a bit of music, but I try not to let that affect the amount of music I buy. Having spent $300+ on cds and $100+ on concerts in the past 2 years, I believe that I can safely say that I'm supporting the music industry.

I won't even mention how much money I spent on video games in the past 2 years...

[bmulligan]

video games on the other hand cost quite a bit to produce and the return isnt on the same scale the musics is so when you pirate in print video games it really does hurt as the company may acutally loose money and then not make games. this is the bigest reason i see for not pirating games.


Actually, the two industries are almost identical in scope, dollars, profits, and structure. The record industry quotes sales $$ in the area of 15+ billion compared to 10+ billion in the videogame market. Obviously the record industry has more units shipped, but that's because a unit only cost 12-20$ when released compared to $40-50 for a game.

Large blockbuster releases make up for the loosers, and there are many more losers than winners in both industries. Teams of engineers, producers, artists, and marketers are involved for both camps, and get paid whether or not a game or music CD makes money. Piracy takes money away from these people if the industries decide to cutback on their output. So, it may not be the artists that get screwed, but the little guy may be getting a pink slip tomorrow because little johnny downloader thinks it's cool to get something for free.

Something people rarely think about are the middle men who are getting cut out of the deals from downloading whether legal or pirated. Your local retailer loses out on dollars, cutting their bottom line and contributing to worker layoffs.

[eldad9]

Something people rarely think about are the middle men who are getting cut out of the deals from downloading whether legal or pirated. Your local retailer loses out on dollars, cutting their bottom line and contributing to worker layoffs.

It's not our job to think of them. When cars were first made available, consumers who could afford them didn't think about the poor whip and buggy manufacturers who would soon lose their business if they couldn't adapt.

No company has a god-given right to keep making money, like the RIAA seems to claim it has.

[bmulligan]

Actually, every company has a 'god' given right to make money. It's the nature of capitalism and freedom. Fortunately, we also have the god-given right to choose which companies to give our money to. I choose to listen to the radio and not give money to the recording industy except for the rare gem that comes along 2-3 times a year, kinda like a Nintendo 1st party release.


I was just illustrating a point of the fundamental change in the market and delivery of product, not that it's anyone's responsibility to keep certain industries and middlemen afloat.

[Theenternal]

How is someone playing Altered beast on your snes emulator? Ive been into the emulation scene for about 9 years, and used to write a section of www.retrogames.com Anyways one thing i do with roms that I feel is beneficial, is what someone wrote here earlier, I download GBA roms before I buy them. I have not played one for more than probably 10 minutes. It helped me to decide to purchase several games, and not purchase taiketsu.

I also legally own about a dozen or so arcade roms, and arcade boards. For me it is easier to run a emulation cabinet, then to toss all those jamma boards in the box. But then again this part isnt pirating.

Obvioulsy downloading x copyrighted material song or game is both illegal.

I agree that Cutting out the Middleman in some forms is an evolution of business,

I just bought a pool table from the company who makes them rather than going to the dealer my family paid 1400 shipped for the same table the dealer wanted to sell for 4000.

[rimsforsale]

i remember when i was much younger, while in japan i would visit my local video game mom'n'pop store to play the latest arcades and play demos of the newest games. piracy wasn't an issue due to lack of equipment for the common man/woman. roms and rips were not distrubuted "whoreish-ly" over any medium. as piracy began to become popular, i remember the owners of the mom'n'pop stores started selling boots of NES (famicon)games on floppys which is playable with a 3rd party device. the only control over this was representives of Nintendo would browse stores and enforce the law. even knowing this is illegal i loved going to that store, we knew everyone that went there by name and it was more of an community than just a store. everyone supported them and bought from them. even if they didn't sell boots we would of still bought from them, but they felt like they had to because business was slowing due to corporate takeovers. many stores were bought and shut-down or forced to become a link in the chain.

The same thing is happening in the US, its almost unlikely for a small business to surive, the rate is most small businesses fail within the first 2 years. I believe this is a big factor to piracy, games, cds alike. who do we have more of an connection with? the little guys or mr. corporate? now people feel no connection with the retailers, and in fact its just a place to exchange money for overpriced goods. now with the technology right at our finger tips, why walk in to a store, spend money, and feel disapointed in the end?

Now, i do not support piracy and have not dl'ed any copyrighted material off the internet for almost 8 years, once i realized what i was doing i immediantly stopped. i believe ripping games is very wrong, at the same time i think buying games cause of mass advertising or hype is also wrong. (matrix reloaded) we reap what we sow, now in any media industry if you dont have a multimillion dollar advertising budget, its hard to make good money. it used to be word to mouth, now the society is so disconnected we RELY on ads.

But i dont feel the same applies for music CDs. even though music sales are still considered low, i believe music download actually did the industry a favor. without it we wouldn't have this many artists poping up, and so many genres reinventing it's self. without the internet music dl scene, michelle brance, yellowcard, plus many others might never of been signed. its a great medium to make a name for a musician. music is more of an art form so it is less objective, people listen the music for the experience, somewhat in a spritual sense. even if you rip their songs you cannot duplicate the experience you get when you go to their concert. piracy is still a act of crime, but the RIAA is going at it all wrong. they should embrace it and use it to their advange, and not repress it, times are going to change no matter what, but those old geezers cannot adjust and see the future. musicans who work hard make more money still, not working hard to advertise then sit back and collect residuals off cds, if they concentrate revenue on live performances, cameo appearences they would be better off.

hats off to the little peoples, thumbs down to over paid CEOs.

[eldad9]

Actually, every company has a 'god' given right to make money.

They have a right to TRY, not to succeed. Big difference there.

[bmulligan]

The 'try' is implied and reiterated in the next statement that we have a choice of which companies get our money.

You know the RIAA made the same stink when casssette tapes came into the marketplace. They said it was going to ruin the industry. They claimed lower sales figures just like they are doing now, neglecting the fact that in both cases, the economy was in a declining period.

The motion picture industry also made a big stink about videotape. Observe how both industries are now making more money and producing more product than ever before. If anything, these mediums helped in the sale and distribution of their products.

Look at how many people on these boards need to have the 'non-GH' copy of a game, or have many more games than they'll ever play, or have unwrapped games still sitting on the shelves. People like to collect things in our culture and there seems to be enough people in the markets already who must have 'offical', complete copies of original releases.

[Syncmaster]

Sorry, my bad, the altered beast game is on the genesis (also another game for the GBA). Thanks Theenternal.

[Quackzilla]

It takes hours to record a $15 CD.

It takes months to write and build a $50 game.

Big difference.
But don't pirate either, bitches.

[magilacudy]

Well spoken Quackzilla.

Or are you really Rick James?

[bmulligan]

It takes hours to record a $15 CD.

It takes months to write and build a $50 game.



You really put the quack in quackzilla by showing you have no concept of the music business. It can takes weeks to record a CD's worth of songs. It can take months to write the songs in the first place. Have you ever written a song ? Arranged it ? Wrote the score for every instrument and vocal ? Practiced it over and over again with 10, maybe 20 different musicians to get it right? Then there's the editing, mixing, and dubbing and all other aspects of post recording production.

Yes, some mucicians can record an entire CD in a few hours, but then again some game producer can make a crappy game in a few days too.

[magilacudy]

I don't think the time it takes to compose a game or music CD is really relevant though.

This may have been said before, but there are many people involved in the creative process for both mediums. Since a game requires music (which needs to be composed and produced like a a music CD), sound, graphics, marketing, etc. the budget and payroll is usually astronomical due to so many people involved. Since when have you heard of a music CD's budget being over a ceratin amount.

Yes, composing music takes time and effort. Nowadays though it really doesn't take that much effort, as most of the music is digitally crafted. Of course, this requires the composer, sound engineers, studio maintenance, and the like. Those are a lot of people involved, however not as much as usually takes to produce a game.

In most cases, they will get paid beforehand, regardless of how the product does. I don't understand how people say piracy takes the money out of their pockets, because technically it already is in their hands. The money is there, what the RIAA is saying is lost is future revenue. There are analysts who predict this or that, but seriously, you could randomly blame anything on taking any amount of money out of your hands.

Correlation does not mean causation - the first rule that is learned in Economics. Just because there is a decline in music sales around the same time as MP3 use doesn't mean there is a connection there.

[bmulligan]

the studio gets paid for the time, and the musicians and production staff get paid, but the artists usually have a cut of the sales as their only compensation unless they have some superstar status and get paid up fornt by the record company. Ususlly, all the production costs are paid out of the feature artists share too.

[GuilewasNK]

I'm at work so I don't have time to read this entire post yet but I look at it like this...

Have any of you recorded songs of the radio? It's the same prinicpal as downloading music. You are making a copy of a copy bascially. Also, look at what the RIAA is concerened about. Crap like Britney Spears (no offense to those who like her). I personally like Jazz and Classical. You never hear anything about the RIAA going after people sharing their huge collection of Beethoven. The main problem is that mp3's are often equal to the quality of CDs. They are digital copies unlike the analog you get from radio so I understand that argument. Remember music was orginally an ART medium not a pop music machine like it is now.

[magilacudy]

Classical music is free domain, so royalties don't go to anyone in that case. Same with dead Jazz composers. The money gets tied up in estates and such.

Classical and Jazz aren't pirated to the same extent as Britney, and are paid differently too. You can't compare the genres directly.

My last internship was in ASCAP (ironically I had to go through the database and fill out cease and desist letters to sites that were pirating) so I know these stupid trivial things.

[Indiana]

It takes hours to record a $15 CD.

It takes months to write and build a $50 game.

Big difference.
But don't pirate either, bitches.

Actually you fail to realize how long it takes to write the lyrics and song. It takes just as long or longer but there are less people involved.

[Quackzilla]

Are you saying that it takes just as long to make a song as it takes to make a video game?
NO. FUCKING. WAY.

It may take up to 3 weeks TOTAL (including writing) to make a CD, but it takes years to make a good game.

And like I said before, don't pirate either, bitches.
I'm gonna grow my hair long and sit in your front yard holding a sign and wear dark sunglasses and a tye dye shirt.

[edit]
Games made by Electronic Arts only take months, but other companies like Square, Nintendo, and Valve spend years on games.

[bmulligan]

Yeah, and they cost $50 bucks when they are released. CD's only cost $10-15.

And only some games take years, most take months
because you can take the tools built from previous games and apply them to new ones. How many games have you played that use the same graphics engine from another ? Probably many. Music CD's are usually built from the ground up, so to speak, with every new release.

Irregardless, piracy doesn't seem to be hurting either industry, unless it's on the scale of the asian markets where they have full blown pirate production factories.

[rimsforsale]

Are you saying that it takes just as long to make a song as it takes to make a video game?
NO. FUCKING. WAY.

It may take up to 3 weeks TOTAL (including writing) to make a CD, but it takes years to make a good game.

And like I said before, don't pirate either, bitches.
I'm gonna grow my hair long and sit in your front yard holding a sign and wear dark sunglasses and a tye dye shirt.

[edit]
Games made by Electronic Arts only take months, but other companies like Square, Nintendo, and Valve spend years on games.

quackzilla comon' now, get real. cds can take just as long as games depending on the quality and various factor, how long do you think alicia keys took to produce her first album and have it signed and marketed. artists with real talent may take as long as 10 years to perfect a album, also game engineers get paid to be at their Macs producing, and high sales helps the next project. while starving artists bus tables and write on the side. both the music and game industry is in the same park. this is not an issue of "which should you pirate, cds or games" but how piracy affects our society as a whole, and you really think a phrase like "dont pirate either, bitches" is really going to help your argument? stay in school, please for the sake of the future.

[alongx]

it's all a matter of value, really.
personally, i don't really think that CD extras, manuals, etc. are valuable to me. i hate cds, and i don't want them in my house. period. and i don't think that a single song is worth $1 when purchased digitally, as seen with apple's itunes music store. however, if apple were to charge less per song, or certainly less per cd, i'd buy all my music legally in digital format. as it stands, i feel itunes is a ripoff because i'm paying just as much if not more for music downloaded from itunes than i would for music on a cd from circuit city. if the prices matched what i valued the music to be worth, i'd pay for every last song i own.
games are much the same. i personally don't pirate games (aside from emulation, if you even consider that pirating) because, in most cases, i find the game to have enough value to be worth my money.
however, if the prices of cds, digital music, and games dropped, i don't think any of this would be nearly the issue it is. if the price is low enough, it isn't worth the risk of pirating to get it. for example, there's really not any dvds that i'd want to buy that i'd look to pirate, because the price is usually low enough that it isn't worth the trouble or the risk of obtaining the media illegally.
what i'm getting at is that if games' prices dropped, so that new games were maybe at the $20 mark, not only would piracy be more likely to drop, but the market as a whole would become much larger than what it is now.
i spent too long writing this, i don't even know if it makes any sense now...

[Mr. Anderson]

Yeah, and they cost $50 bucks when they are released. CD's only cost $10-15.

And only some games take years, most take months
because you can take the tools built from previous games and apply them to new ones. How many games have you played that use the same graphics engine from another ? Probably many. Music CD's are usually built from the ground up, so to speak, with every new release.

Irregardless, piracy doesn't seem to be hurting either industry, unless it's on the scale of the asian markets where they have full blown pirate production factories.

Games may use each others engines, but pop machines (Britney, Christina, etc.) use each others sound and the like. These two industry's are so intertwined.

[punqsux]

Games may use each others engines, but pop machines (Britney, Christina, etc.) use each others sound and the like. These two industry's are so intertwined.

except there are good games out there, theres not much good music

[Mr. Anderson]

Games may use each others engines, but pop machines (Britney, Christina, etc.) use each others sound and the like. These two industry's are so intertwined.

except there are good games out there, theres not much good music

True indeed.

[Simon Adebesi]

ahhhh. what if you found a stack of cd's\games in the middle of the street, would you take them, find the owner, or just leave them there.

its the same idea.

[bmulligan]

TAKE THEM......losers weepers!

[eldad9]

ahhhh. what if you found a stack of cd's\games in the middle of the street, would you take them, find the owner, or just leave them there.

its the same idea.

What if you could take them, so that you had them, AND leave them there too, in case the owner comes back?

[rimsforsale]

Games may use each others engines, but pop machines (Britney, Christina, etc.) use each others sound and the like. These two industry's are so intertwined.

except there are good games out there, theres not much good music

i disagree. i love music, and games... yellowcard/final fantasy brand new/dragon warrior system of a down/mario kart, see. you are wrong. :D

[JSweeney]

Well, yeah... if your taste in music didn't suck.

IKIK.

[chunk]

ahhhh. what if you found a stack of cd's\games in the middle of the street, would you take them, find the owner, or just leave them there.

its the same idea.

What if you could take them, so that you had them, AND leave them there too, in case the owner comes back?

Yeah....its more like sitting there and listening to them until the owner comes back. Your not taking anything, just making good use of whats available.

Common you antipiracy guys, just admit it. Your brainwashed by our evil corporate overlords. :)

[schu]

to be quite honest, i buy as many games/ cds as i can afford, and download the rest..i try to do my share of purchases and keep it fair but i dont feel guilty about downloading a copy (not a physical item) of something that i would absolutely never pay for in the first place (unless of course the prices were lower)

[JSweeney]

Just because you don't feel guilty about it doesn't make it any less of a crime. I wish some people would just admit to themselves that they are theives, instead of crafting ridiculous excuses to try to absolve themselves of blame.

I can deal with the fact that some people are going to steal, and that doesn't even bother me, so long as they are honest about it.

People who steal and then say it isn't their fault or throw any of a myriad of excuses about why they aren't responsible bothers me even more...

But what really bothers me are the people who steal games and music, act like it isn't their fault.. that the company owe it to them, and then the proceed to complain about how no one makes any games or music that they like. Gee, I wonder why. Maybe because they are a BUSINESS? If they don't make money on something, they aren't going to make it. With videogames and music, you vote with your dollars... so if you aren't buying anything, you have no reason to complain.

[eldad9]

Please do not refer to copyright infringement as theft. Thank you. Have a nice day.

[JSweeney]

...crafting ridiculous excuses to try to absolve themselves of blame...

[King Bahamut]

Games may use each others engines, but pop machines (Britney, Christina, etc.) use each others sound and the like. These two industry's are so intertwined.

except there are good games out there, theres not much good music

i disagree. i love music, and games... yellowcard/final fantasy brand new/dragon warrior system of a down/mario kart, see. you are wrong. :D

Wtf?

As for this argument, I love music and games too (probably games a tad more), but I find it extremely hard to find good CDs, as I scrounge all sorts of genres (they range from many different genres, some you've probably never cared to look into) but with little luck. My best method for finding good music has been to download it, and if the music is good enough, then to actually buy the CD. $20+ is rape for a CD that is usually not that good, and so this measure has been almost necessary for me to get the most bang for my buck. As for games, there are a good number of well-known reliable sources for rating games, so game purchases are much easier to make in confidence.

What I think the music industry needs to do is to have someone start up a music review service (magazine, website, etc.) that gives extremely well detailed reviews on the music, as well as give plenty of demos of the music itself. At least when it comes to the music scene in America, much of it is utterly tasteless, and I've had to import most of my CDs (one of my favorite ever is a CD re-issue of the 1989 release of the Mother OST Vocals...excellent rearrangements of songs from the first in the Mother series, otherwise known as Earthbound in the US).

[JSweeney]

...crafting ridiculous excuses to try to absolve themselves of blame...

[eldad9]

...crafting ridiculous excuses to try to absolve themselves of blame...

What are you talking about?

You made a mistake. I corrected it. Admit your mistake or move on, or just ignore it. Don't post sequences of words that make no sense when put together.

[schu]

Just because you don't feel guilty about it doesn't make it any less of a crime. I wish some people would just admit to themselves that they are theives, instead of crafting ridiculous excuses to try to absolve themselves of blame.

I can deal with the fact that some people are going to steal, and that doesn't even bother me, so long as they are honest about it.

People who steal and then say it isn't their fault or throw any of a myriad of excuses about why they aren't responsible bothers me even more...

But what really bothers me are the people who steal games and music, act like it isn't their fault.. that the company owe it to them, and then the proceed to complain about how no one makes any games or music that they like. Gee, I wonder why. Maybe because they are a BUSINESS? If they don't make money on something, they aren't going to make it. With videogames and music, you vote with your dollars... so if you aren't buying anything, you have no reason to complain.

Im not blaming them for me downloading it, im blaming them for me not paying it, the fact that i download it is really irrelevant because id never pay for it in the first place if i would download it

[schu]

Just because you don't feel guilty about it doesn't make it any less of a crime. I wish some people would just admit to themselves that they are theives, instead of crafting ridiculous excuses to try to absolve themselves of blame.

I can deal with the fact that some people are going to steal, and that doesn't even bother me, so long as they are honest about it.

People who steal and then say it isn't their fault or throw any of a myriad of excuses about why they aren't responsible bothers me even more...

But what really bothers me are the people who steal games and music, act like it isn't their fault.. that the company owe it to them, and then the proceed to complain about how no one makes any games or music that they like. Gee, I wonder why. Maybe because they are a BUSINESS? If they don't make money on something, they aren't going to make it. With videogames and music, you vote with your dollars... so if you aren't buying anything, you have no reason to complain.

Im not blaming them for me downloading it, im blaming them for me not paying it, the fact that i download it is really irrelevant because id never pay for it in the first place if i would download it
you call me dishonest, you need to face up to the fact that when no one is having something taken from them that there is no theft occuring..if you can tell me what they are losing by me downloading it then ill be happy to lsiten
if i tried to sell their product and make money off of it, then i would consider it theft..otherwise not so

[nachzeher]

TOPIC MERGED

It seems that a lot of people here use P2P programs to download movies and music and the community as a whole are generally fine with it. However when someone brings up copying or downloading a game, they get flamed. What makes downloading music more acceptable than downloading games? Or are they equally bad?

Just trying to bring up something that's I've noticed for awhile. Please try to keep it civil and if this topic ever goes out of hand, the mods may lock it as they see fit.

Discuss.

[zionoverfire]

Well I hate the muisc industry much more than I do the video game insdustry as a whole so I don't really care when people rip off music since CD prices are way to high.

[Cornfedwb]

I for one am not fine with it.. but somehow people assume somehow that a song is so much cheaper it is somehow ok. Sorta like stealing a peice of gum is somehow better than stealing a new Cadillac.. which I also don't agree with.

Piracy is theft, and it is illegal, pure and simple.

[bignick]

There is a lot more involved in bootlegging games, mod chips and hacks and stuff. Its so easy to download music and movies. I see no difference. Its like the people that download anime, and say its OK to do because its not available in the US.

[javeryh]

duh they are equally bad in terms of stealing but people probably equate stealing a song with breaking into your little sister's piggybank and stealing video games with robbing a bank...

Others look at it as they weren't going to buy the game or music in the first place so no one loses anything.

and others look at it as "previewing" - in that it is a gateway to purchasing things down the road that you never would have considered until you got the free sample...

[Crud]

CD prices are way to high.

And video game prices aren't?

[willardhaven]

Also, the music industry is very different... the creators of the music generally do not benefit from the sale of CDs as game companies benefit from the sale of their software.

Most bands encourage you to download their music, and pay to see them live, as that's where they make their money.

[zionoverfire]

CD prices are way to high.

And video game prices aren't?

Vidoe game prices have been around $50 for a long time, every year they try and jack up the CD prices a little bit more.

[chickenhawk]

I have to agree with Cornfedwb. Stealing is stealing. Just because one industry/store/whatever or another deserves it, doesn't make it OK.

It's the same with taking advantage of the system. People on this site say it's OK to use other peoples discount codes but it's not OK return a game to a store that doesn't require a receipt.

To each his own regarding what you think is OK and not OK, but at least be consistent. That's all I ask.

[javeryh]

CD prices are way to high.

And video game prices aren't?

No - not in terms of what it takes to actually make one. How many times do you hear of some jackass "musician" say they wrote an entire CD in an afternoon because "the music was just flowing out of me dude" or something like that. It hardly costs anything to record a cd compared to creating a video game. Besides most, if not all, games get marked down to $20 or less after a year but Sgt. Pepper's is still going for $15.99 40 years after it's release. We are lucky video games are so cheap.

[nachzeher]

Edited: I'll won't chime in just yet. :)

[dtcarson]

They're both equally 'wrong.'
If something costs too much, don't buy it, or buy it used, or use tradein credit. 'Costing too much' is an entirely subjective term, and there will always be cheap SOB's to whom *any* cost is 'too much.'
I don't agree with, oh, virtually any of the music industry's practices, but piracy is still wrong, and doesn't help resolve the actual problems at all.
Just off the top of my head, I think music piracy is a bigger impact than game piracy [overall]. It's so easy to pirate music and play them [Ipods, Winamp, etc.], but it's a relative PITA to pirate a game and play it, be it PC or console. [PC obviously a little easier, but still not as easy as music.]
That said, i love the concept of P2P and Mp3....I've got 8-12 legit cd's of certain artists, and it is ultra convenient to stick all those albums on one CDR.
The tool is not inherently illegal, nor should it be; it's what can be done with it.

[int80h]

What makes downloading music more acceptable than downloading games?

Ashlee Simpson (http://www.airbagindustries.com/bucket/ipod/)

[jaykrue]

Slightly off topic here but nachzeher, could you tell me what systems Fire Emblem is in? I know there's one for GBA but I don't know the others and uh, stealing is bad, m'kay?

[zionoverfire]

So this just got moved into a year old thread?

[nachzeher]

Slightly off topic here but nachzeher, could you tell me what systems Fire Emblem is in? I know there's one for GBA but I don't know the others and uh, stealing is bad, m'kay?

Here's this is all you need to know about FE releases:

http://www.fact-index.com/f/fi/fire_emblem.html

The latest instalment (FE8) just came out last month in Japan in the GBA. A Fire Emblem on the GCN is expected to come out in 2005.

Fire Emblem: Rekka no Ken (7), as it is known in Japan, is the only one released in the US so far.

[FriskyTanuki]

Just throwing this in.

The one difference between piracy and theft is that with theft, you are physically stealing the item and the other materials that the companies spent money to make along with it, and piracy, you're just stealing actual songs/movie/game itself. I don't really condone either one, but when I DL songs from a group I like, I usually end up getting the CD anyway. The are subtle differences between the two that really change a lot about why people just don't take it from the store.

I do the same thing Nachzeher, I like to at least get a few minutes of play to decide if I want to get the game, so I don't waste $30 on a game. Though I have beat a few games and still bought them because I really liked them. One difference between music and game piracy is the amount of money someone has to put into it to get their illegal version to play. For music, it's usually built right into your computer and if it's not, then it's cheap enough that it's not a big hit to your wallet. As for games, you tend to need a mod chip to override whatever system you plan to use, you usually pay someone else so you don't mess up the system, which makes the cost of pirating games a few times higher than games.

One of my classes had this very same discussion, so I'm just throwing this bit of info out.

[Crud]

CD prices are way to high.

And video game prices aren't?

No - not in terms of what it takes to actually make one. How many times do you hear of some jackass "musician" say they wrote an entire CD in an afternoon because "the music was just flowing out of me dude" or something like that. It hardly costs anything to record a cd compared to creating a video game. Besides most, if not all, games get marked down to $20 or less after a year but Sgt. Pepper's is still going for $15.99 40 years after it's release. We are lucky video games are so cheap.


Sgt Peppers is a popular cd though... so why would they mark it down? They don't mark down popular video games until a sequal comes out, or until it's been out on the market for quite awhile. Besides, writing a cd and actually going into the studio and recording it are completely different. The studio isn't free ya know, especially for popular bands, it does get quite expensive in the long run, with productions fees and all. I'm not saying it doesn't take a lot of money to make a video game, because I know it does.

[camoor]

Video games are not inflated vs CDs, when you factor entertainment value. And you're a cheapass :twisted:

I bought Bond: Nightfire used for $12. Been playing it for an hour a night, 2 and a half weeks straight. How many times are you going to do that with a CD from Tower Records.

It has been proven in court that record companies inflated prices illegally throughout the 1990s, yet all they had to do was unload some stale merchandise on the libraries (Gee thanks for dumping 610,000 copies of "Willenium" NO JOKE) and mail out a few $16 checks to the few ppl who knew about the class action lawsuit against them. They continue to hike prices and now sue the clueless parents of kids who put music on the internet for, on average, $5500 a pop (by law they can request over $100,000 ---> thanks Orin Hatch (R, Utah))

Copyright laws extend out over 100 years, do not benefit the original artists, and only serve to enrich corporations and their lawyers (I'm calling out Cary Sherman and Mitch Bainwol)

The copyright system is broken (we need a more flexible copyright that protects the original artist), people are tired of the tyranny of inflated prices ($12 a CD??? It's overpriced at $3), and the people's actions are tantamount to civil disobedience (similar to what happened during prohibition)

Do yourself a favor and check out www.downhillbattle.org - it's time for change.

I listen to live music or internet radio anymore, you'll never see me buy another RIAA-backed CD again. Congrats RIAA, you just lost another customer for life.

As long as videogames remain reasonably priced, I'm in the game. However I'm not too keen on all this "downloadable content" BS, esp the problem ppl have in trying to sell their PS2 HDD.

[zionoverfire]

Video games are not inflated vs CDs, when you factor entertainment value. And you're a cheapass :twisted:

I bought Bond: Nightfire used for $12. Been playing it for an hour a night, 2 and a half weeks straight. How many times are you going to do that with a CD from Tower Records.

It has been proven in court that record companies inflated prices illegally throughout the 1990s, yet all they had to do was unload some stale merchandise on the libraries (Gee thanks for dumping 610,000 copies of "Willenium" NO JOKE) and mail out a few $16 checks to the few ppl who knew about the class action lawsuit against them. They continue to hike prices and now sue the clueless parents of kids who put music on the internet for, on average, $5500 a pop (by law they can request over $100,000 ---> thanks Orin Hatch (R, Utah))

Copyright laws extend out over 100 years, do not benefit the original artists, and only serve to enrich corporations and their lawyers (I'm calling out Cary Sherman and Mitch Bainwol)

The copyright system is broken (we need a more flexible copyright that protects the original artist), people are tired of the tyranny of inflated prices ($12 a CD??? It's overpriced at $3), and the people's actions are tantamount to civil disobedience (similar to what happened during prohibition)

Do yourself a favor and check out www.downhillbattle.org - it's time for change.

I listen to live music or internet radio anymore, you'll never see me buy another RIAA-backed CD again. Congrats RIAA, you just lost another customer for life.

As long as videogames remain reasonably priced, I'm in the game. However I'm not too keen on all this "downloadable content" BS, esp the problem ppl have in trying to sell their PS2 HDD.

:shock: Copy right law is over 100 now? Damn I thought it was like 80 or something and that is still way to long.

[jaykrue]

Slightly off topic here but nachzeher, could you tell me what systems Fire Emblem is in? I know there's one for GBA but I don't know the others and uh, stealing is bad, m'kay?

Here's this is all you need to know about FE releases:

http://www.fact-index.com/f/fi/fire_emblem.html

The latest instalment (FE8) just came out last month in Japan in the GBA. A Fire Emblem on the GCN is expected to come out in 2005.

Fire Emblem: Rekka no Ken (7), as it is known in Japan, is the only one released in the US so far.

Sweet! Thanks again! Oh, and which one is your sprites from? that attack sequence kicks ass!

[eldad9]

:shock: Copyright law is over 100 now? Damn I thought it was like 80 or something and that is still way to long.

They extend it whenever mickey mouse is about to enter the public domain.

[nachzeher]

Slightly off topic here but nachzeher, could you tell me what systems Fire Emblem is in? I know there's one for GBA but I don't know the others and uh, stealing is bad, m'kay?

Here's this is all you need to know about FE releases:

http://www.fact-index.com/f/fi/fire_emblem.html

The latest instalment (FE8) just came out last month in Japan in the GBA. A Fire Emblem on the GCN is expected to come out in 2005.

Fire Emblem: Rekka no Ken (7), as it is known in Japan, is the only one released in the US so far.

Sweet! Thanks again! Oh, and which one is your sprites from? that attack sequence kicks ass!

The one in my sig? It's from the US release. That scenario was just made up though, don't expect a battle like that in the game. Basically it was the three main characters' critical attacks against the final boss.

[jaykrue]

Slightly off topic here but nachzeher, could you tell me what systems Fire Emblem is in? I know there's one for GBA but I don't know the others and uh, stealing is bad, m'kay?

Here's this is all you need to know about FE releases:

http://www.fact-index.com/f/fi/fire_emblem.html

The latest instalment (FE8) just came out last month in Japan in the GBA. A Fire Emblem on the GCN is expected to come out in 2005.

Fire Emblem: Rekka no Ken (7), as it is known in Japan, is the only one released in the US so far.

Sweet! Thanks again! Oh, and which one is your sprites from? that attack sequence kicks ass!

The one in my sig? It's from the US release. That scenario was just made up though, don't expect a battle like that in the game. Basically it was the three main characters' critical attacks against the final boss.

Really? That's too bad. It would be awesome to see a team combo attack like that in a game but I haven't seen it too often. I'll still check out FE7 though

[nachzeher]

Slightly off topic here but nachzeher, could you tell me what systems Fire Emblem is in? I know there's one for GBA but I don't know the others and uh, stealing is bad, m'kay?

Here's this is all you need to know about FE releases:

http://www.fact-index.com/f/fi/fire_emblem.html

The latest instalment (FE8) just came out last month in Japan in the GBA. A Fire Emblem on the GCN is expected to come out in 2005.

Fire Emblem: Rekka no Ken (7), as it is known in Japan, is the only one released in the US so far.

Sweet! Thanks again! Oh, and which one is your sprites from? that attack sequence kicks ass!

The one in my sig? It's from the US release. That scenario was just made up though, don't expect a battle like that in the game. Basically it was the three main characters' critical attacks against the final boss.

Really? That's too bad. It would be awesome to see a team combo attack like that in a game but I haven't seen it too often. I'll still check out FE7 though

There is a triple combo, involving three pegasus knights, but I haven't really attempted it yet.

[zionoverfire]

:shock: Copyright law is over 100 now? Damn I thought it was like 80 or something and that is still way to long.

They extend it whenever mickey mouse is about to enter the public domain.

I've been told that but I thought that extended it to 80 something not over 100. And Ironnically that's steam boat micky, so if anyone tried to use modern Micky mouse they would still be sued.

[Don Chubo]

Both are wrong. I always like to see the frightening train-wreck of logic that people who steal music and software use to justify their wrongdoing - it's always good for a laugh.

[javeryh]

CD prices are way to high.

And video game prices aren't?

No - not in terms of what it takes to actually make one. How many times do you hear of some jackass "musician" say they wrote an entire CD in an afternoon because "the music was just flowing out of me dude" or something like that. It hardly costs anything to record a cd compared to creating a video game. Besides most, if not all, games get marked down to $20 or less after a year but Sgt. Pepper's is still going for $15.99 40 years after it's release. We are lucky video games are so cheap.


Sgt Peppers is a popular cd though... so why would they mark it down? They don't mark down popular video games until a sequal comes out, or until it's been out on the market for quite awhile. Besides, writing a cd and actually going into the studio and recording it are completely different. The studio isn't free ya know, especially for popular bands, it does get quite expensive in the long run, with productions fees and all. I'm not saying it doesn't take a lot of money to make a video game, because I know it does.

I understand what you are saying but only a small percentage of games get sequels but all of them are marked down eventually. A used Dreamcast system only costs $15 and I imagine in another 5 years it will cost even less. Recording fees for an artist - even at the top of the line studios where it costs thousands a day - are considerably cheaper than making a game where hundreds of people have to have top of the line equipment to create it not to mention the artists, translators, marketing, etc. I just think that it is reasonable to charge $40 for a new game...

[Don Chubo]

We are lucky video games are so cheap.


Well said. That's a good answer to something that shouldn't even need discussing in this thread. If you think games cost too much, don't play them. Play cards instead. You can get a nice deck for a couple of bucks, and you're not playing pretzel logic games to justify ripping someone off.

[zionoverfire]

Slightly off topic here but nachzeher, could you tell me what systems Fire Emblem is in? I know there's one for GBA but I don't know the others and uh, stealing is bad, m'kay?

Here's this is all you need to know about FE releases:

http://www.fact-index.com/f/fi/fire_emblem.html

The latest instalment (FE8) just came out last month in Japan in the GBA. A Fire Emblem on the GCN is expected to come out in 2005.

Fire Emblem: Rekka no Ken (7), as it is known in Japan, is the only one released in the US so far.

Sweet! Thanks again! Oh, and which one is your sprites from? that attack sequence kicks ass!

The one in my sig? It's from the US release. That scenario was just made up though, don't expect a battle like that in the game. Basically it was the three main characters' critical attacks against the final boss.

I thought the final boss was a ..... :shock: (Spoiler)

[dopa345]

The thing that annoys me most about this topic is that people seem to think that they're entitled to having music or video games as some sort of right. These things are luxuries, not necessities. If you don't think they're worth it then simply don't buy it. Just because you think games or music are overpriced doesn't give you the right to steal them. Don't try to sugar-coat it by some sort of self-righteousness. The fact that people try to even defend piracy as "civil disobedience" or describe themselves as crusaders is absolutely ludicrous. These companies deserve to protect their hard work.

[Tromack]

Video games are not inflated vs CDs, when you factor entertainment value. And you're a cheapass :twisted:

I bought Bond: Nightfire used for $12. Been playing it for an hour a night, 2 and a half weeks straight. How many times are you going to do that with a CD from Tower Records.

It has been proven in court that record companies inflated prices illegally throughout the 1990s, yet all they had to do was unload some stale merchandise on the libraries (Gee thanks for dumping 610,000 copies of "Willenium" NO JOKE) and mail out a few $16 checks to the few ppl who knew about the class action lawsuit against them. They continue to hike prices and now sue the clueless parents of kids who put music on the internet for, on average, $5500 a pop (by law they can request over $100,000 ---> thanks Orin Hatch (R, Utah))

Copyright laws extend out over 100 years, do not benefit the original artists, and only serve to enrich corporations and their lawyers (I'm calling out Cary Sherman and Mitch Bainwol)

The copyright system is broken (we need a more flexible copyright that protects the original artist), people are tired of the tyranny of inflated prices ($12 a CD??? It's overpriced at $3), and the people's actions are tantamount to civil disobedience (similar to what happened during prohibition)

Do yourself a favor and check out www.downhillbattle.org - it's time for change.

I listen to live music or internet radio anymore, you'll never see me buy another RIAA-backed CD again. Congrats RIAA, you just lost another customer for life.

As long as videogames remain reasonably priced, I'm in the game. However I'm not too keen on all this "downloadable content" BS, esp the problem ppl have in trying to sell their PS2 HDD.

I'm all for protecting intellectual property, but it has become ridiculous. All of the lawsuits against people who downloaded 35 songs, and all of the lawsuits against musicians who took 1.2 second samples from songs without explicit written consent are just insane.

And Orin Hatch is a complete jackass. I saw some interview with him about music piracy and he said he supported having the government hack in to music downloaders computers, take all of their files, and then corrupt them. He then stated that he wanted to see people serve at least in jail if they downloaded a single song. The people he was with said, "Now, we don't really mean this, but we do think their should be more stringent punishment", trying to give him an out, but he kept digging deeper and said that he meant every word and that he was actually holding back from saying what music downloaders really deserve. Note, I heard this interview on the Today show about 3 years ago, so I am a little fuzzy on the specifics, but the gist of it is that Orin Hatch is a jackass.

[Don Chubo]

Yes, the "entitlement" mentality is far too pervasive. The bottom line is that software and music piracy are illegal, and anyone who engages in such acts are criminals, whether they are caught or not.

[Tromack]

The thing that annoys me most about this topic is that people seem to think that they're entitled to having music or video games as some sort of right. These things are luxuries, not necessities. If you don't think they're worth it then simply don't buy it. Just because you think games or music are overpriced doesn't give you the right to steal them. Don't try to sugar-coat it by some sort of self-righteousness. The fact that people try to even defend piracy as "civil disobedience" or describe themselves as crusaders is absolutely ludicrous. These companies deserve to protect their hard work.

I don't support piracy, but I don't support the music industry. They aren't just protecting their hardwork they are stifling creativity and bankrupting artists. Piracy isn't right, but there is a sense of karma in seeing the Music Industry get its ass handed to it. For far too long they have stolen the intellectual property of artists, gouged their consumers for every last cent, and have tried to stop legitimate technologies (file sharing has its legitmate uses, it isn't often used for them, but it does) because they were afraid of the change.

[zionoverfire]

Yes, the "entitlement" mentality is far too pervasive. The bottom line is that software and music piracy are illegal, and anyone who engages in such acts are criminals, whether they are caught or not.

Anyone who smokes or has smoked pot is a criminal to, so I guess I don't know anyone who doesn't deserve to be in jail. :D

[javeryh]

The thing that annoys me most about this topic is that people seem to think that they're entitled to having music or video games as some sort of right. These things are luxuries, not necessities. If you don't think they're worth it then simply don't buy it. Just because you think games or music are overpriced doesn't give you the right to steal them. Don't try to sugar-coat it by some sort of self-righteousness. The fact that people try to even defend piracy as "civil disobedience" or describe themselves as crusaders is absolutely ludicrous. These companies deserve to protect their hard work.

While I agree that it is wrong (in theory), surely you see the "other side" of the argument? Downloading can have positive effects for most everyone involved depending on how you look at it (and there are artists out there who support it).

Every single CD I own (1000+) I purchased because I heard some of it first. Unless it is a band that I already know I like, I would never just buy a CD "blind". I've heard songs for free on the radio and then bought the CD. I've heard songs for free at a friend's house and then bought the CD. I've heard songs for free on TV and then bought the CD. And yes, I've heard songs for free by downloading them and then bought the CD. It's not all bad you know. Ask any band and I'm sure they will tell you that they would rather have their music downloaded than not listened to at all by anyone.

[crystalklear64]

Yes there is a major differance, downloading songs takes less time thus, its right.

[Arakias]

Michael Jackson owes the publishing rights to all the Beatles songs doesnt he? Thats great for intellectual property rights.

[Scorch]

There's not really a big difference. With music, you know what you'll get, whereas games change every time you play them. I'm not going to lie.. I download GBA roms before making a purchase. I download CD's and I buy the ones that are great. I've downloaded a few PC games and ended up going to buy them shortly afterwords (Max Payne 2 immediately springs to mind).

I realize the blood, sweat and tears that go into making games, but there's no game that's a surefire hit. Will I download a PC game to test it out? Absolutely. Do I feel guilty about it? Absolutely. Will I go out and buy it? Unless the game's complete and utter crap, yeah, I go out and buy it.

With music, nothing's guarenteed. The best bands in the world have sold out. I feel no guilt about downloading music, and you know why? Tune in to MTV Cribs when you get a chance, and you'll see just how bad our downloading has hurt these guys. Watch as some rap guy shows you his huge 70+ inch flatscreen plasma TV trimmed in gold. Watch as the guy from Blink 182 says to the camera "Buy more CD's! I need a gold faucet for my sink!".. I do NOT buy mainstream artist's albums.. they're usually crap anyways (Nelly, on one of his CD, has a track that features him laughing. Him and a bunch of people, just laughing. He probably got paid a ton for a track of laughter). I support lesser known artists such as Angie Aparo (please.. visit www.angieaparo.com and check him out), Damien Rice, Joss Stone (who's shot off like a rocket since last year), Teitur, Mike Garrigan, and other stuff.

So.. there's really no difference. You're 'sticking it to the man' in both cases.. but I feel less guilty about downloading music.

This thread would've been better if it was downloading music vs. downloading movies.

[Mookyjooky]

This thread is delisious.

Personally, I do both....Not often....but I only do it once in a while. I'll usually steal a soundtrack and use that to figure out what other CDs I want to steal. I dont sugar-cote it....Stealing is stealing, test the CD on amazon.com if your pissed that the cd is good for only one song....then you can just buy the CD single. Personally, I dont give a fuck....It's easy and the MPAA and RIAA had their chance to make it work for them and they sat on the idea of MP3 until Napster became mainstream...so, personally...they fucked up...oh well. They can eat a dick....personally.

I hate buying shitty games the most....but I read up with what I want and make logical buying decisions. I bought Halo 2, Last I bought Burnout 3. Pissed that you bought Drake 99 dragons? Well you did cause youre a dumbass....enjoy youre shitty game. I buy most games, but I download PC games and emulators I never actually play. Oh well.

Maybe I'll burn in hell, maybe....but I have rules...like all should.

Like the game? Buy it.
DVD special editions? Buy them...they usually rock.
Music Cds? download.

BUT WHY YOU SAY??

It costs 100 million dollars to make that 15 dollar dvd
and only 10 thousand to make that 17 dollar music cd.....fucking steal it. RIAA are fucking idiots....Its too easy to steal....but the fatcats still want to keep the 6-7 digit salaries....and they cant possibly pay the performers any less....so fuck it. STEAL AWAY. You'll only get that one good song.

Oya...dont download Dave Matthews Band though....not only does he play real music, but he lets people download his live shows. That is very cool in my book...but to each his own.

[Mookyjooky]

Just remember, the RIAA (or the pre-RIAA version) tryed to shut down radio in the 40's.

Could you imagine buying a CD in 1990 without hearing it on the radio?

It just goes to show, it all comes out in the wash....they just are pissed they have to try harder to hook you in now... thats all.

[eldad9]

Yes, the "entitlement" mentality is far too pervasive. The bottom line is that software and music piracy are illegal, and anyone who engages in such acts are criminals, whether they are caught or not.

Just like anybody who's used DVDs from another region, and heterosexual couples in north carolina who live together but aren't married.

[Arakias]

I support lesser known artists such as Angie Aparo (please.. visit www.angieaparo.com and check him out),

Angie aparo! Awesome, I've been a fan of his since 99 but I havnt heard his new album "For Stars and Moon". Last I saw on his site is he was becoming part of a band.

[dtcarson]

Or if you wanted to check out a huge variety of music, legally, buy a satellite radio.
FM radio is the problem; the CD makers are the problem; the suit-and-tie guys who create a band, rather than finding one, are the problem. But piracy isn't the solution.
Yes, there are 'benefits' to it, like being exposed to music you wouldn't normally. But there are other, legal venues for that as well.

[Arakias]

DVD special editions? Buy them...they usually rock.
It costs 100 million dollars to make that 15 dollar dvd

Most dvds came out in theaters and had a chance to recoup their costs there first (obviously some movies did not) so I dont see how the DVD cost $100 mill to make, when they are just or nearly as cheap as cds to manufacture.
And on how many special editions of dvds do you watch all the extra features? 4 discs of Lord of the Rings, ok, I watched the extended versions, but never bothered with the other discs. And not to mention the studios rereleasing dvds to make newer special editions like Terminator 2 - or releasing crap version (Eternal Sunshine/Kill Bill) only to intend to release a better version later on. Theres no need to buy them on the basis of costs, buy them if you like the movie.

[zionoverfire]

Or if you wanted to check out a huge variety of music, legally, buy a satellite radio.
FM radio is the problem; the CD makers are the problem; the suit-and-tie guys who create a band, rather than finding one, are the problem. But piracy isn't the solution.
Yes, there are 'benefits' to it, like being exposed to music you wouldn't normally. But there are other, legal venues for that as well.

satellite radio, yeah see if we throw are money at someone else than the record companies won't be able to take it :D

[jaykrue]

Or if you wanted to check out a huge variety of music, legally, buy a satellite radio.
FM radio is the problem; the CD makers are the problem; the suit-and-tie guys who create a band, rather than finding one, are the problem. But piracy isn't the solution.
Yes, there are 'benefits' to it, like being exposed to music you wouldn't normally. But there are other, legal venues for that as well.

Satellite radio is fine and all but there's nothing like being able to choose the exact song that you want to listen to at that exact moment. I think that the Ipod solution is only a stopgap solution but it IS better than straight out DLing from a p2p network since you're paying for the songs you like and not have to buy a $12-$17 CD w/ only 3 songs out of 12 that you might like. As for the artists, they're not really bling bling since all the stuff you see on music videos are leased. W/ the exception of someone real big like Puffy or Jay-Z, I'm willing to bet that most of the 'bling' seen on those MTV videos were leased.

[vherub]

damn, this thread was a 30 minute read even before it was merged

folks seem to be talking abstractly

personally, before i started downloading songs i would buy 1 or 2 cds a year, i had given up on the radio (still to this day) because i didnt feel it was targeted to me and i didnt like any of the programming, so sometimes i would browse the local library or a friend's collection, but basically it took some effort to listen to quality music.

then i started downloading songs

and since then i have been buying 20-30 cds a year

so it is illegal as it now stands to download music, but if i was the music industry i would find a way for people like me (and i feel there is a lot of us) to be able to listen to music for free as a means of advertisement.

if the music industry clamps down on any downloading, i dont suddenly start buying, i stop buying all together because i am no longer aware of anything to buy

[Mr. Anderson]

damn, this thread was a 30 minute read even before it was merged

folks seem to be talking abstractly

personally, before i started downloading songs i would buy 1 or 2 cds a year, i had given up on the radio (still to this day) because i didnt feel it was targeted to me and i didnt like any of the programming, so sometimes i would browse the local library or a friend's collection, but basically it took some effort to listen to quality music.

then i started downloading songs

and since then i have been buying 20-30 cds a year

so it is illegal as it now stands to download music, but if i was the music industry i would find a way for people like me (and i feel there is a lot of us) to be able to listen to music for free as a means of advertisement.

if the music industry clamps down on any downloading, i dont suddenly start buying, i stop buying all together because i am no longer aware of anything to buy

Very good point.

[Scorch]

I support lesser known artists such as Angie Aparo (please.. visit www.angieaparo.com and check him out),

Angie aparo! Awesome, I've been a fan of his since 99 but I havnt heard his new album "For Stars and Moon". Last I saw on his site is he was becoming part of a band.

Yeah. He has a myspace account. Head over to angieaddicts.com and they have a link. It's.. okay. I like it when better when the band wasn't around.

Ever see him in person? He's pretty short, but he's AWESOME. He autographed the CD booklet for OOTE, The American and WOMC/One With The Sun. FS&M hadn't been released yet (Actually, WOMC had just been released)

[camoor]

Yes, the "entitlement" mentality is far too pervasive. The bottom line is that software and music piracy are illegal, and anyone who engages in such acts are criminals, whether they are caught or not.

Just like anybody who's used DVDs from another region, and heterosexual couples in north carolina who live together but aren't married.

And the dangerous felons who drank in the 1920s.

Don't you kids know about the 70s. Bowties will never be cool, the Republicans aren't looking out for you, and corporations don't just want your money, they want your soul.

It seems that the pop treacle of Britney Beers and Justin Timbertoes has done what folk rock never could, it has broken the constant streak of youthful rebelliousness.

[camoor]

Or if you wanted to check out a huge variety of music, legally, buy a satellite radio.
FM radio is the problem; the CD makers are the problem; the suit-and-tie guys who create a band, rather than finding one, are the problem. But piracy isn't the solution.
Yes, there are 'benefits' to it, like being exposed to music you wouldn't normally. But there are other, legal venues for that as well.

Free internet radio like shoutcast radio also rocks.

[KingDox]

I do download music, but I do feel ripped off when I pay 15 bucks for a cd when I can get a xbox PH that will last me longer for the same price.

And I don't feel guilty. I can say I've droped over $100 in one visit to a music store. I drop so much cash on cds it's nuts. My sig has like only 50% of my music collection.

[MorbidAngel4Life]

I dl music. But I don't dl games. And I feel the same way as KingDox. Why buy a cd when you can buy a game for about the same price?