A church in England is suing Sony over the game "Resistance: Fall of Man"

[Xevious]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6736809.stm

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/printer_friendly/news_logo.gif
Cathedral row over computer game
The Church of England is considering legal action against entertainment firm Sony for featuring Manchester Cathedral in a violent Playstation computer game. The Church says Sony did not obtain permission to use the interior in the war game 'Resistance - Fall of Man.'
The game, which has sold more than one million copies, shows a virtual shoot-out in the cathedral's nave in which hundreds of soldiers are killed.
A Sony spokesman said that permission had been sought where necessary.
However, the Church said Sony did not ask for permission to use the cathedral and it has demanded an apology and the removal of the game from shop shelves - otherwise legal action will be considered.
Sony has not returned calls from Church officials.
'Beyond belief'
The Bishop of Manchester, the Rt Revd Nigel McCulloch, has described the decision to feature the city's cathedral as "highly irresponsible" - especially in the light of Manchester's history of gun crime.
"It is well known that Manchester has a gun crime problem," he said.
"For a global manufacturer to re-create one of our great cathedrals with photo-realistic quality and then encourage people to have guns battles in the building is beyond belief and highly irresponsible.


"Here in Manchester we do all we can to support communities through our parish clergy. We know the reality of gun crime and the devastating effects it can have on lives. It is not a trivial matter."
The Dean of Manchester Cathedral, The Very Revd Rogers Govender, also hit out at Sony's decision to feature the cathedral, claiming it was "undermining" the work of the church.
"We are shocked to see a place of learning, prayer and heritage being presented to the youth market as a location where guns can be fired.
"This is an important issue. For many young people these games offer a different sort of reality and seeing guns in Manchester Cathedral is not the sort of connection we want to make.
"Every year we invite hundreds of teenagers to come and see the cathedral and it is a shame to have Sony undermining our work."
No-one from Sony was available for comment.
However, David Wilson, a Sony spokesman, told The Times newspaper: "It is game-created footage, it is not video or photography.
"It is entertainment, like Doctor Who or any other science fiction. It is not based on reality at all. Throughout the whole process we have sought permission where necessary."

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/england/manchester/6736809.stm

Published: 2007/06/09 15:21:29 GMT

© BBC MMVII

[Mr Unoriginal]

Do you even have to get permission for this? If just one brick is different couldn't you even claim it was not the same church? Sounds like the collection plate has been a little empty and they need a way to change that.

[Apossum]

so if that church is in the background in a movie, do they collect royalties on that too? :roll:

[Xevious]

What surprised me is that I didn't know Manchester had a big gun crime problem (as stated by the Bishop in the article). I thought Gun problems were strictly an American institution. I guess I don't know any better.

[jer7583]

This will go away in a week or so, as these kind of grabs for money/attention do.

[kPod]

Pasted straight from my Livejournal entry.

--

So the Church of England is thinking of Legal Action against Sony for theft of interior design. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6736809.stm)

The Church of England is considering legal action against Sony for copying the interior design of Manchester Cathedral for their game 'Resistance: Fall of Man' for the Playstation3.

I hate the PS3. I have to admit, I'm not a sony fan beyond PS2. However, I have to side with them for this. The game has been out for months, and it's only NOW that the game is hitting gaming charts, that the Church is considering action.

Well, like religion, I have two words for the Church of England, in lieu of the fact that copyright of ANY design of ANY Cathedral in Manchester would've been outdated in the mid 1950s at the latest.

Blow. Me.

[FunkyDoRight]

That Story says nothing about Manhunt. Says Alot about Resistantance:Fall of Man. But any ways. Screw Sony.

[kPod]

That Story says nothing about Manhunt. Says Alot about Resistantance:Fall of Man. But any ways. Screw Sony.Oooh crap. Sorry, reminded me of the whole Manhunt thing. xD Lemme edit it.

[Maynard]

I had to read your message three times to understand it. Are you mentally challenged? Manhunt never came out for PS3 and as far as we now Manhunt 2 is only coming out for the Wii. I am not to sure where you came from, but you only have 11 posts.

I just want to say that I am sorry for your mental shortcomings.

Oh so it was Resistance fall of man. I can see how you got Manhut from the words Resistance Fall of Man

Again may god bless your mental ailments.

[panasonic]

dumb fuck lmao. Anyways the point that they are making is bullshit and it says thousands of soldiers are killed. thats like calling brutes and grunts in halo soliders and people. It is aliens we be a hunting.

[hohez]

Sounds like the best marketing for Resistance Sony could have asked for.

[Scorch]

http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140699

[CoffeeEdge]

That's just fucking stupid. That likeness has got to be public domain.

[SpecTrE3353]

What surprised me is that I didn't know Manchester had a big gun crime problem (as stated by the Bishop in the article). I thought Gun problems were strictly an American institution. I guess I don't know any better.

I stayed near Manchester several years ago and I am happy to say I was not shot (or even stabbed). It did however seem to have a reputation as a shady city.

[Mechafenris]

ahh... thank goodness there's not an american company suing over some asinine patent awarded for a clearly obvious idea like "having guns in a game that you shoot" or somesuch nonsense.

The entire planet's too litigious. Let's clog the courts with moronity, so real justice cannot be served...

Nice church... if I were a member of it, I'd have to change religions. ;) Does Great Britain have parody exemptions? If we right a parody or use something legitimate (like a corporate logo, etc) in a clearly parodic manner.. the corporation cannot sue based on the 1st Amendment right of freedom of expression... (of course I know that corporations and "artists" have tried to get that changed, but it really is censorship and they're having a tough sell to anyone who has at least half a brain)... That doesn't stop the morons from bringing suits, it just takes less time to toss out the suit on the grounds of being a captain in the army of dumbass.

So if GB has parody exemptions, let Insomniac claim it was a parody. ;) Case closed... commentary done, go back to oppressing the masses, Churchy McChurch.

[The Mana Knight]

Screw Sony.STFU.

Anyway, this is just another stupid lawsuit that will be thrown out. They even failed to mention Insomniac who actually developed the game. I remembered the church stage in Resistance, and IMO, one of the best stages too.

[kPod]

If anyone wants to know how the HELL I got Manhunt, I was remembering a news story, and re-reading it to boot, of a teenager in Edinbrough, Scotland that murdered his friend. Police said that the kill was identical to the last level that was played on his copy of Manhunt. The Church made loads of statements about the game then, for some reason.

That's how I mixed the two up.

[sonicfreak5]

religion is all about money these days.

[The Crotch]

Totally off-topic: Does anyone else find the name of our latest CAG Newbie here funny?

[Apossum]

Totally off-topic: Does anyone else find the name of our latest CAG Newbie here funny?


I'm eagerly awaiting the lpod and mpod models.

[Zoglog]

they need more money to recruit little boys to molest

[panasonic]

this guy is Jpod. He types like jpod, he wrote blow me like jpod. K is after J. He has a wii. Thus the newbie is Jpod. SONVABITCH

[kPod]

this guy is Jpod. He types like jpod, he wrote blow me like jpod. K is after J. He has a wii. Thus the newbie is Jpod. SONVABITCHBeg your pardon? I used kPod because K-Drake is only used when all my names are taken up (on the m3forum mainly, thanks to their dodgy signup processes), and I got tired of using Kaecyus, or Kaecyus-Drake.

kPod's just easier to type. I've not been here before May, and if you must know, I joined originally to talk to Tron1820 about a quote for a GBM -> GC cable.

Proof?

http://kaecyus-drake.net <- my home site.

http://kaecyus-drake.net/mg2/pictures/100_0117.jpg <- Me. Getting an award for 'Biggest Geek'

And if I was faking who I was, I'd at least pick someone who doesn't look /entirely/ fugly.

To be honest, I don't even know who JPod is. Oh no, wait. I think I might've posted in the same thread as him a couple of times.

Although why I'm defending myself against the Spanish e-Inquisition is beyond me.

[dpatel]

I have no idea who jPod is, but I find it amusing that kPod is trying extra hard to make it seem like he is not jPod. To me, that just further proves panasonics point. But, I have no idea who jPod is, and I don't care, so nothing against you OP, it just seems like you're trying too hard, which makes it more obvious.

[Apossum]

Boston University is the worst college ever.

(If he is the real Jpod, this will reveal his true form)

[2Fast]

Boston University is the worst college ever.

(If he is the real Jpod, this will reveal his true form)

:rofl:

[Thomas96]

that says that they did a good job w/ the game graphically.

[kPod]

Boston University is the worst college ever.

(If he is the real Jpod, this will reveal his true form)I wouldn't know. Wrong continent and all.

[gofishn]

this guy is Jpod. He types like jpod, he wrote blow me like jpod. K is after J. He has a wii. Thus the newbie is Jpod. SONVABITCH

Well, if that really is his site, he clearly is NOT Jpod seeing as how he is in ENGLAND.

[Vinny]

they need more money to recruit little boys to molest

Why not use PS3s?

"Here little Billy, sit on my lap and I'll show you how to play."

[H.Cornerstone]

they need more money to recruit little boys to molest

Now now, I agree what the church is doing is stupid but insulting all priests and religious clerks is a bit overboard.

[The Crotch]

I'd just like to apologize for setting this off (though it was inevitable). I neither thought you were jPod, nor did I have any problem with him when he was here. I just thought it was funny.

Oh, you might want to change your signature to "Not jPod, so fuck off."

...

Or something like that. [/derail]

[ratzombie]

Ridiculous.

[xmrblondex]

a church?
The Church of England. It's a religion, not a singular church, per se.

And they are considering legal action, they haven't actuall sued yet..

[panasonic]

lmao. fair enough you are not jpod, however i am watching you like hawk and will be quick to report you when you say Boston.


:-P just messin welcome to cag


plus you look nothing like jpod. http://myspace-464.vo.llnwd.net/00782/46/48/782698464_l.jpg

[reiji]

Wow. You know the world is really fucked up when CHURCHES are getting sue-happy. This is just rediculous.

[Thomas96]

The Church want to get paid as well... so I'm not surprised.

[Maynard]

lmao. fair enough you are not jpod, however i am watching you like hawk and will be quick to report you when you say Boston.


:-P just messin welcome to cag


plus you look nothing like jpod. http://myspace-464.vo.llnwd.net/00782/46/48/782698464_l.jpg

Cut your damn hair hippy.

[kPod]

Cut your damn hair hippy.Don't be jealous now.

Considering that's no-one apart from a banned user.

[panasonic]

Cut your damn hair hippy.

thats jpod;)

[panasonic]

Don't be jealous now.

Considering that's no-one apart from a banned user.

woah no one said jpod was banned.

ZING!8-)

[VanillaGorilla]

Chuches, begging for money? That's hard to believe.

[help1]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/fun.games/06/11/sony.manchester/index.html

[dallow]

This small part of the level was so cool.

The SOUND in that church is unbelievable!
I just kept running around firing random shots to hear the bullet echo all around me.
I LOVE SURROUND SOUND!

[Serpentor]

now got me curious, who the hell is jPod?

welcome to the forum OP...

[panasonic]

he was a troll on the off topic threads. He threatened to kill people in most of his posts, wrote stuff such as blow me, kiss my ass, and long rants that no one cared about. He was banned.

[whoknows]

that says that they did a good job w/ the game graphically.
That's what I was thinking :lol:

[gokou36]

Anyone notice how at first they demanded an apology and now they want an apology and a donation? It was all about $$$.

[ratzombie]

Church leaders want the game removed from shop shelves or modification of the section of the game to remove the Cathedral interior. They also want an apology from the company for using "realistic photo quality" images of its building without permission. Govender said the church would also seek a donation to be used in its work with young people. He did not specify how much the company would be asked to pay.

:roll:

Absolutely ridiculous, they don't deserve a penny. And having Sony modify or remove the game from store shelves is very unrealistic.

[Kayden]

"For a global manufacturer to re-create one of our great cathedrals with photo-realistic quality and then encourage people to have guns battles [WITH FUCKING ALIENS!] in the building is beyond belief and highly irresponsible.
I love how he 'accidentally' left out the little bit of that statement that would have obliterated what little credibility he did have.

It's not like the game is a priest shooting sim. They should be happy people were going to the church, even if it was just digitally.

[VAD3R or Fro]

"We are shocked to see a place of learning, prayer and heritage being presented to the youth market as a location where guns can be fired. "


Because we all know only kids play rated M games.

[help1]

"We are shocked to see a place of learning, prayer and heritage being presented to the youth market as a location where guns can be fired. "


Because we all know only kids play rated M games.

when the church says youth, they mean younger generations, ie 0 -35.

[elwood731]

First, some of you are confusing this with the Catholic Church, it is not. Second, they do indeed have the right to demand Sony ask permission before using their church. It would be the same as setting a game in Madison Square Garden. If someone wons a building, you do need to ask their permission. Ever wondered why you don't see more real-life locales in games? The ones you do occasionally see, such as the White House, are government owned and therefore fair game usually. Sony came in and used a church, a holy place to many, for profit. Mo0re than that, they did disgrace the location by making it the sight of a shoot-out. They had no right, and the church has every right to ask for an apology. Now, do they have the right to ask for money? Sure. Should they? Probably not, but they're probably hoping it will stop other companies form doing the same. Sony isn't responding because they basically know they're already lost and are probably trying to figure out the best PR response.

[Brian9824]

Pretty sure many buildings are public places and therefore fair game. Also unless they specifically name the church and have it brick by brick identical they really have no grounds to complain.

[elwood731]

Pretty sure many buildings are public places and therefore fair game. Also unless they specifically name the church and have it brick by brick identical they really have no grounds to complain.
This is not true. You do not have to name something or replicate it exactly for it to be a copyright violation. This is a common misconception. And just because a location is a ?public place," does not mean it is fair game. For example, a McDonald's is a public place, but hardly fair game. A mall is public, but not fair game either. Again, those that are happen to usually be owned by the government. Privately owned locations, which is basically everything not owned by the government, do have rights to protect their location. This is why non-licensed sports games can't even use the stadiums of teams.

[Mr Unoriginal]

This is not true. You do not have to name something or replicate it exactly for it to be a copyright violation. This is a common misconception. And just because a location is a ?public place," does not mean it is fair game. For example, a McDonald's is a public place, but hardly fair game. A mall is public, but not fair game either. Again, those that are happen to usually be owned by the government. Privately owned locations, which is basically everything not owned by the government, do have rights to protect their location. This is why non-licensed sports games can't even use the stadiums of teams.

While I think there is something to what you are saying, but your McDonald's example probably has to do with the name being a copyright issue not the actual building.

[Brian9824]

I did some more digging and I was partially right. It's perfectly legal to copy the OUTSIDE of any well known building. Thats how GTA has copied many locations for their games without permission. When you go inside its another story though.

Now "The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988" contains a law called the 2D to 3D act that could be construed to prohibit Sony from creating a replica. However In general a “2D to 3D” case can only be made if a copyright holder is still alive or has died in the past 70 years, a problem for the church as the building dates back to the 14th century.

[elwood731]

While I think there is something to what you are saying, but your McDonald's example probably has to do with the name being a copyright issue not the actual building.
Actually, I would wager McDonald's has the layout and design of their buildings legally registered to prevent competitors from copying their design. But yes, the biggest issue with McDonald's would be the name and golden arches logo.

I did some more digging and I was partially right. It's perfectly legal to copy the OUTSIDE of any well known building. Thats how GTA has copied many locations for their games without permission. When you go inside its another story though.
This is what also allows you to take any picture off the street, and for the media to take pictures of Madonna while sitting in her backyard, even if she is on private property. Basically, things within public sight are protected under fair use. However, there are even limitations to that. For example, you couldn't picture a particular church in an ad for condoms with the tag line, "God wants you to have sex, Trojan style!" You would be implying that building, and therefore the owner of that building, agreed with the idea/message of the ad. You could use such a building if it were unrecognizable, say the back of some random brick building.

[Serpentor]

he was a troll on the off topic threads. He threatened to kill people in most of his posts, wrote stuff such as blow me, kiss my ass, and long rants that no one cared about. He was banned.

oyi, lucky me, didn't read any of his posts, thanks for the summary :)

[Brian9824]

Actually, I would wager McDonald's has the layout and design of their buildings legally registered to prevent competitors from copying their design. But yes, the biggest issue with McDonald's would be the name and golden arches logo.


This is what also allows you to take any picture off the street, and for the media to take pictures of Madonna while sitting in her backyard, even if she is on private property. Basically, things within public sight are protected under fair use. However, there are even limitations to that. For example, you couldn't picture a particular church in an ad for condoms with the tag line, "God wants you to have sex, Trojan style!" You would be implying that building, and therefore the owner of that building, agreed with the idea/message of the ad. You could use such a building if it were unrecognizable, say the back of some random brick building.

Well that would be fine with this. I mean its not like they are saying to go into church with assault rifles and go crazy. Theoretically you can argue that the inside of the church would also fall under fair use. They aren't stating the church condones anything or implying that the owners condone it. The fact that its an alien over-run city would even imply its AGAINST the owners views.

I mean the message this game states is if aliens attack and devestate your planet its acceptable to have a fight in this church to try to stop said aliens from killing all of humanity.

[lordxixor101]

Well, I think a story like this really shows the times we live in.

Is the church a little sue happy? Maybe. However, churches are a little bit different than the normal person. For many people, churches are very sacred places. They actually hold enough cache, which is why so many movies use religious backgrouds.

But, back 20+ years ago (and I would guess even now), when you wanted to use a church, you gained permission and you gave a donation. It kept everyone on the same page. Sony skipped this part, which I'm guessing is a "wink wink, nudge nudge" part of business.

However, everyone gets so upset with sue happiness, that this goes to Sony's favor. They now get free advertising for their game, skip the donation, and everyone is on their side.

I'm going to be the contrarian. I think this is a situation where past precedences says Sony should give the donation and the apology here. The donation should be a fair amount (not sure what a fair amount is), but I think Sony is blatantly using this for publicity (I have a hunch that people have gone to Sony and they could have kept this quiet for a very small amount).

[Apossum]

Wow. You know the world is really fucked up when CHURCHES are getting sue-happy. This is just rediculous.


google: indulgences. Religion has been greedier :lol:



he was a troll on the off topic threads. He threatened to kill people in most of his posts, wrote stuff such as blow me, kiss my ass, and long rants that no one cared about. He was banned.


you forgot about his posts about Boston University, how his daddy's rich, and that he's studying business.

My theory-- he had his BU avatar before even getting accepted there...then he didn't get accepted, but he couldn't just take down the avatar. the tension of living a lie on CAG made him threaten people. At least, it would make a great TV movie.

[panasonic]

google: indulgences. Religion has been greedier :lol:






you forgot about his posts about Boston University, how his daddy's rich, and that he's studying business.

My theory-- he had his BU avatar before even getting accepted there...then he didn't get accepted, but he couldn't just take down the avatar. the tension of living a lie on CAG made him threaten people. At least, it would make a great TV movie.
Yup he was not actually in BU he just praised it like no other even though his chances where non existant.

[H.Cornerstone]

Well, I think a story like this really shows the times we live in.

Is the church a little sue happy? Maybe. However, churches are a little bit different than the normal person. For many people, churches are very sacred places. They actually hold enough cache, which is why so many movies use religious backgrouds.

But, back 20+ years ago (and I would guess even now), when you wanted to use a church, you gained permission and you gave a donation. It kept everyone on the same page. Sony skipped this part, which I'm guessing is a "wink wink, nudge nudge" part of business.

However, everyone gets so upset with sue happiness, that this goes to Sony's favor. They now get free advertising for their game, skip the donation, and everyone is on their side.

I'm going to be the contrarian. I think this is a situation where past precedences says Sony should give the donation and the apology here. The donation should be a fair amount (not sure what a fair amount is), but I think Sony is blatantly using this for publicity (I have a hunch that people have gone to Sony and they could have kept this quiet for a very small amount).

You do realize Insomniac made the game not Sony? And Insomniac is not owned by Sony so if anyone should have asked permission it should have been Insomniac.

[62t]

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/7681/religiontp4.gif

[Graystone]

Can they sue for that? Most churches look the same on the inside.

[camoor]

I'm going to be the contrarian. I think this is a situation where past precedences says Sony should give the donation and the apology here. The donation should be a fair amount (not sure what a fair amount is), but I think Sony is blatantly using this for publicity (I have a hunch that people have gone to Sony and they could have kept this quiet for a very small amount).

I think it's absolutely fine for people to have an opinion like yours, I just wish the church would let the free market decide rather then the courts.

If you don't like games with church fights in them, then don't buy games with church fights in them. Believe me, if the church created a successful boycott of the game, these scenes would be removed.

[camoor]

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/7681/religiontp4.gif

Well done! Did you create that yourself - lol.

[Brian9824]

I'm going to be the contrarian. I think this is a situation where past precedences says Sony should give the donation and the apology here. The donation should be a fair amount (not sure what a fair amount is), but I think Sony is blatantly using this for publicity (I have a hunch that people have gone to Sony and they could have kept this quiet for a very small amount).

How is Sony using this for publicity. They were sued by the church, its not like Sony sued itself.


(I have a hunch that people have gone to Sony and they could have kept this quiet for a very small amount)


Sorry but thats now how lawsuits in the business world work. If Sony were to settle with every lawsuit issued against them before even going to court, it would never end. I could sue for one of their game charachters looking like me, etc. Sony is calling the churches claim and they must now spend the money to hire lawyers and prove Sony violated some mythical law.

Also don't forget that this is a 600 year old building built well before copyright laws even existed.

[Apossum]

yes, it's not like the humans and aliens will stop and have a Family Guy-style conversation about how they probably shouldn't fight in the church.

[Rozz]

Back to Jpod:

Someone should make a thread honoring his best quotes.

Also, and Boston University rulz guys!

[62t]

Well done! Did you create that yourself - lol.
one of my friend sent it to me.

[Rei no Otaku]

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6172487.html?action=convert&om_clk=latestnews&tag=latestnews;title;2

Tony Blair agrees with the church.

All I'm going to say is that if strange creatures take over the country I'm hiding in a church!

[camoor]

All I'm going to say is that if strange creatures take over the country I'm hiding in a church!

I don't get it.

[Kayden]

God will save him?

( :roll: )

I don't get it.

[Rei no Otaku]

I just thought the church level was fun...