it continues: Manhunt 2 given AO rating in the U.S. [Mobile/Archive] - Page 2

mykevermin

06-20-2007, 07:32 PM

Some people here suggest that the ESRB is complicit in killing off this game - I think that's a weak argument at best. There are political concerns for the ESRB, sure, but ultimately they would be "doing their job" marking the game AO, whether or not it hit the market.

Nintendo and Sony have killed this game by refusing to sell "AO" games on their system. There's little to contrast this with in media, as other outlets (tv, film, music) allow for easy entree by independents. People can make and distribute their own shows, albums, and movies, with no official involvement at all. For games, however, the technological limitations (and, more importantly, costs) get in the way. You can make PSP homebrew, I suppose...but nothing of Manhunt's magnitude or design.

There's no recourse, and, of course, going "DIY" doesn't change the issue of censorship that the console makers all share.

I really doubt this is a publicity stunt, since the game, to be salable, will ultimately have to be rated "M." By doing that, you immediately cast doubt on the "authenticity" of the game (this must be revised or have content deleted to have gotten this rating) if it is released. That's bad publicity.

This must be this decade's "Thrill Kill." I got to play that game eventually, and boy did it suck. That, of course, is not the point.

PyroGamer

06-20-2007, 08:13 PM

Well, it seems we didn't have to wait too long on the official stance of Nintendo in this:

http://kotaku.com/gaming/original/nintendo-nixes-ao-manhunt-270741.php

Games made for Nintendo systems enjoy a broad variety of styles, genres and ratings. These are some of the reasons our Wii and Nintendo DS systems appeal to such a broad range of people. But as with books, television and movies, different content is meant for different audiences. That's why the ESRB provides ratings to help consumers understand the content of a game before they purchase it. As stated on Nintendo.com, Nintendo does not allow any AO-rated content on its systems.

I could not help myself with the bold marking. Sorry, guys, but I told you so.What an absolute bullshit quote.

Seriously, who the fuck wrote that, proof-read it, and then though "wow, this isn't completely stupid, let's publish it."

"We support a broad range of gametypes and ratings, for a broad range of ages and interests, for a broad range of demographics. Oh, and by the way, no games that should be played only by adults."

Foolman

06-20-2007, 08:14 PM

I know that a PC Title would already be bitterrenting across the globe, to the frustration of the publisher, developer, and everyone except for the asshole that leaked it.

Foolman: I need some information about the validity of that quote, dear sir. The rape thing makes me want to call bull - nobody is that stupid, least of all Rockstar.
It's bull.

Sorry it took me so long, started playing some Beyond Good and Evil.

PyroGamer

06-20-2007, 08:21 PM

Well now I'm hoping someone leeks a copy of the unedited PS2 version (and, if the Wii is hacked, that too). Perhaps someday then I'll play it.

MarioColbert

06-20-2007, 08:23 PM

Sorry it took me so long, started playing some Beyond Good and Evil.

I just finished it last Sunday. Brilliant title. Last time I played it, I made it to the moon and then my memory card got destroyed by a friend. Make that ex-friend. Anyway, finally got around to replaying it again.

Have you played Eternal Darkness? I'm playing through it right now and I must be close to the end (Gulf War Mission). It's no BG&E, but it's nice.

dopa345

06-20-2007, 08:29 PM

Foolman

06-20-2007, 08:32 PM

I just finished it last Sunday. Brilliant title. Last time I played it, I made it to the moon and then my memory card got destroyed by a friend. Make that ex-friend. Anyway, finally got around to replaying it again.

Have you played Eternal Darkness? I'm playing through it right now and I must be close to the end (Gulf War Mission). It's no BG&E, but it's nice.
I just bout BG&E today. I needed something to tide me over until Persona 3 and it looks like I made the perfect choice.

I haven't played Eternal Darkness. I don't really have a tolerance for scary games or movies. Most people don't find RE4 that scary but I found myself always doing 180s to make sure nothing was behind me.

Brak

06-20-2007, 08:33 PM

So people seriously would not buy the game if it was toned down to an "M" rating even though the core gameplay elements were completely intact? I guess I underestimate the demand for a game that allows players to rip someone's balls off with pliers. Frankly if that feature is the main selling point for a game, it won't be very good to begin with.
Wow; you sound like such a video game sage -- a free-thinker whose mind isn't clouted by such rubbish, like Manhunt 2.

Funny how you don't seem to appreciate being able to play a game in its entirety, with such purist opinions as those, which you have kindly graced us with, o' master.

PyroGamer

06-20-2007, 08:35 PM

I just bout BG&E today. I needed something to tide me over until Persona 3 and it looks like I made the perfect choice.
Is BG&E BC yet? I haven't played it in so long. :(

fraggedbylaggers

06-20-2007, 08:38 PM

seriously fuck censorship
^
A prime example of the stupidity that is censorship (lol)

What will they take from us next? Freedom of speech? (oh wait...)

PyroGamer

06-20-2007, 08:42 PM

The worst thing about censorship is ****** **** ** *****.

dopa345

06-20-2007, 09:04 PM

Wow; you sound like such a video game sage -- a free-thinker whose mind isn't clouted by such rubbish, like Manhunt 2.

Funny how you don't seem to appreciate being able to play a game in its entirety, with such purist opinions as those, which you have kindly graced us with, o' master.

I don't see where I ever said it should not be released or not be played in its AO form. I don't presume to impose my taste in games on anyone else. If you want an AO version of Manhunt 2, then pressure Rockstar, Sony and Nintendo rather than blame the ESRB.

Brak

06-20-2007, 09:29 PM

I don't see where I ever said it should not be released or not be played in its AO form. I don't presume to impose my taste in games on anyone else. If you want an AO version of Manhunt 2, then pressure Rockstar, Sony and Nintendo rather than blame the ESRB.
I don't see where I said you said that. Again, your input is completely worthless.

schuerm26

06-20-2007, 09:38 PM

seriously fuck censorship
^
A prime example of the stupidity that is censorship (lol)

What will they take from us next? Freedom of speech? (oh wait...)

Give it a rest, this isn't censorship. This is 3 companies not wanting adult only products on their consoles. Nothing more, nothing less. It is NOT censorship in any form. Rockstar is not being banned from releasing this game, they just can't use the 3 major consoles as an outlet. The ratings board gave it a rating it seems to have deserved, they did NOT ban this game from being played.

Monsta Mack

06-20-2007, 09:43 PM

So who's gonna make the first online petition to release Manhunt on the Wii/PS2 ? ;) LMAO.

PyroGamer

06-20-2007, 09:46 PM

Give it a rest, this isn't censorship. This is 3 companies not wanting adult only products on their consoles. Nothing more, nothing less. It is NOT censorship in any form.
:lol:

You obviously have a very poor grasp of the english language.

Banning offensive titles is, by definition, censorship. The big three are participating in active censorship of what they deem to be objectional content.

It's legal, it's their right, but it's fucking censorship.

dopa345

06-20-2007, 09:49 PM

:lol:

You obviously have a very poor grasp of the english language.

Banning offensive titles is, by definition, censorship. The big three are participating in active censorship of what they deem to be objectional content.

It's legal, it's their right, but it's fucking censorship.

It's not censorship, it's a marketing decision. If you all petition sony and nintendo and show that there is a huge demand for the game, you'll get your AO Manhunt 2.

Halo05

06-20-2007, 09:52 PM

The problem, if there is such a petition, instead of being filled with reasonable reasons about why the industry should release AO titles will instead read like this.

ZOMG!!!11!!!!! I wana pull of $$$$er's testicles with plyerz!!!1!!!!

I hate kids.

Foolman

06-20-2007, 09:53 PM

It's not censorship, it's a marketing decision. If you all petition sony and nintendo and show that there is a huge demand for the game, you'll get your AO Manhunt 2.
That won't work.

Brak

06-20-2007, 09:58 PM

That won't work.
That never works.

PyroGamer

06-20-2007, 09:59 PM

It's not censorship, it's a marketing decision. If you all petition sony and nintendo and show that there is a huge demand for the game, you'll get your AO Manhunt 2.
To censor is to ban. The big three have made a conscious decision to ban AO rated titles from their consoles. This is an active form of censorship that also happens to be a business decision.

It's their right, it's perfectly legal, and it's also fucking censorship.

Monsta Mack

06-20-2007, 10:00 PM

PyroGamer

06-20-2007, 10:03 PM

No shit sherlock thats why I said LMAO :P
:-| That was extremely rude and uncalled for.

Halo05

06-20-2007, 10:03 PM

Geez, calm down, I was crafting a humorous anecdote for all, not attacking your suggestion (which I know was made in jest).

Monsta Mack

06-20-2007, 10:33 PM

Geez, calm down, I was crafting a humorous anecdote for all, not attacking your suggestion (which I know was made in jest).

No! I won't calm down till I can pull your testicles via the wiimote!

schuerm26

06-20-2007, 10:44 PM

To censor is to ban. The big three have made a conscious decision to ban AO rated titles from their consoles. This is an active form of censorship that also happens to be a business decision.

It's their right, it's perfectly legal, and it's also fucking censorship.

It isn't censorship. It is deciding not to release something that these 2 companies obviously feel doesn't help the image they are projecting for their systems. Manhunt 2 can still be released via other alternatives. Nintendo and Microsoft has every right to say they don't want to release whatever they want. That doesn't make it censorship.

It's like when that record label owned by Disney didn't want to release that Insane Clown Posse cd. That wasn't censorship, they just didn't want that kind of content associated with Disney. Same thing here.

Brak

06-20-2007, 11:23 PM

It isn't censorship. It is deciding not to release something that these 2 companies obviously feel doesn't help the image they are projecting for their systems. Manhunt 2 can still be released via other alternatives. Nintendo and Microsoft has every right to say they don't want to release whatever they want. That doesn't make it censorship.

It's like when that record label owned by Disney didn't want to release that Insane Clown Posse cd. That wasn't censorship, they just didn't want that kind of content associated with Disney. Same thing here.
Go back the past few pages to see why I think it is censorship.

CoffeeEdge

06-20-2007, 11:25 PM

It's not censorship, it's a marketing decision. If you all petition sony and nintendo and show that there is a huge demand for the game, you'll get your AO Manhunt 2.
Cause petitions ALWAYS work. Oh, and there's still the issue of no stores carrying AO games.

Zen Davis

06-20-2007, 11:26 PM

It isn't censorship. It is deciding not to release something that these 2 companies obviously feel doesn't help the image they are projecting for their systems. Manhunt 2 can still be released via other alternatives. Nintendo and Microsoft has every right to say they don't want to release whatever they want. That doesn't make it censorship.

It's like when that record label owned by Disney didn't want to release that Insane Clown Posse cd. That wasn't censorship, they just didn't want that kind of content associated with Disney. Same thing here.

Yes it is censorship and as long as you claim to be wrong, it will still be censorship.

CoffeeEdge

06-20-2007, 11:27 PM

Where do they go from here.

"Here" being Nazi Germany.
Godwin's Law, you fucking lose, motherfucker.

Apossum

06-20-2007, 11:28 PM

WELCOME TO THE TYRANNY OF POPULAR OPINION. POPULATION: you.

CoffeeEdge

06-20-2007, 11:29 PM

Yes, I would. If what foolman posted was real, I would agree with the Ao rating of Manhunt 2.

My gripe is that, because it's rated Ao, I will not be able to purchase it or even play it, rendering the rating and ratings system a complete joke.

I'm an adult, and I can't play and Adult Only rated title?
Uh, sure you can. You can go buy all 23 (I think? I don't remember the number) officially AO-rated games. But the console makers made the decision that they don't want that on their systems, and AGAIN, that's their prerogative. Do you care to deny that?

Brak

06-20-2007, 11:36 PM

Uh, sure you can.
Uh. No, I can't. And then you support the claim that I can with:
You can go buy all 23 (I think? I don't remember the number) officially AO-rated games.Those are past releases -- Not Manhunt 2. This title isn't going to see the light of day, so what do past Ao rated titles have to do with what's going on in the now?

Me: I want to eat an apple.

You: Go eat one of the 23 oranges.

WHHHAT?
But the console makers made the decision that they don't want that on their systems, and AGAIN, that's their prerogative.
Oh. Ok. And, again, you bring that up, again. Again.
Do you care to deny that?
How can I deny something that happened, and what does that have to do with any part of what I said?

CoffeeEdge

06-20-2007, 11:39 PM

Oh. Ok. And, again, you bring that up, again. Again.
And over and over again, you fail to tell me how the console maker's exercising their right to say what can be made using their tools is censorship.

Brak

06-20-2007, 11:50 PM

And over and over again, you fail to tell me how the console maker's exercising their right to say what can be made using their tools is censorship.
Well, at least you acknowledged that, pertaining to the post of mine you quoted, your reply had nothing to do with my post.

Good work.

Now, to answer your demand. Again:

Wait. Fuck it. I'll quote myself. 10,000 times.

My censorship war isn't with the consoles (not entirely, anyway); It's with the ESRB who is, and will be, using the console manufacturers' policies to their advantage.

Oh, really? I'm glad you have that much faith in the system.

Let me break down for you, real simple:

You're concerned that the game will get in the hands of minors if it were rated M. As it follows, you're concerned that this game will corrode the minds of children -- that's safe to assume, and a moot point. So let's just go past that one.

Now, that first concern - the concern of the title getting in the hands of minors - doesn't that indirectly say that you think the ratings system is a joke, and does not work at all, as you believe the title will be played by minors?

The very same ratings system that is giving Manhunt 2 a soft-core, indirect consumer ban by giving it an Ao rating? Now, why does that rating garner any validity in your eyes? I thought you were invertedly saying the ratings system was a joke..?

That's the part that you didn't understand me "babbling the fuck on about", or however many classy "fucks" you shoehorned in there, to make your point that much more valid.

As for my paranoia of Rockstar discrimination: I really don't think that's a batshit theory. Look at how much thunder the ESRB has received for not rating titles properly. Not to mention the American Liberal / Thompson thunder.

I think this received a rating before they even play-tested the game.

I disagree. The ESRB was playing their cards, knowing that giving it an Ao would be retail homicide for the title.

It's both parties. One is playing off the others' policies.

The Ao is a proverbial "cock block". Either they appropriate the title, for a lower rating, or it doesn't get sold in stores. Both of those options, in their own way, are censorship, no?

I'm referring to the ESRB here:

That's my point; playing their cards to block the distribution of the title, in its intended form.

It's kind of like the bending of the laws that traffic cops use to their advantage.

"A suspicious minority driving at night? I better check if his license plate light is out."

All of that amounts to a greater point, where it goes on for so long that it's entirely abused.

There's probably a couple of more, but I'm getting bored.

Either you have a selective memory, or no memory at all. Especially since most of those were responses to your posts.

You're on this insane kick where you think you're the lone voice, defending the console manufacturers, when I've said numerous times, to you, that I'm blaming the ESRB.

We get your point -- stop shoehorning in to every other point, already.

Apossum

06-20-2007, 11:57 PM

pwned.

dallow

06-21-2007, 12:15 AM

I'm convinced, Day 1 for me.

(the 'gold' build torrent that will be leaked in a couple years since the game never became officially available)

yukine

06-21-2007, 01:23 AM

Wow, you guys are still arguing? :lol:

CoffeeEdge, and sorry if I upset you. I just meant in general, not after the immediate quote.

reibeatall

06-21-2007, 01:25 AM

SNKMat

06-21-2007, 01:38 AM

Scorch

06-21-2007, 01:39 AM

"the content that seems to have netted the A-O includes a woman being decapitated and her decapitated body being raped in the neckhole, a live cat being microwaved to death, scenes of necrophilia, and a woman's breast being sliced off and worn like a hat."
what.. the.. fuck?!?!

That's some of the most twisted stuff i've ever heard of in my life.

Calamityuponthee

06-21-2007, 01:42 AM

MarioColbert

06-21-2007, 01:45 AM

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but here's what pushed Manhunt into AO territory.

"the content that seems to have netted the A-O includes a woman being decapitated and her decapitated body being raped in the neckhole, a live cat being microwaved to death, scenes of necrophilia, and a woman's breast being sliced off and worn like a hat.
"

The game deserves it's AO rating; Sony needs to allow the game on their system, regardless.

It's been mentioned, and then withdrawn due to the fact that this seems to be fake. Source, please?

The strong-willed argumenters: you are freaking out over a technicality which isn't really a difference of opinion. Brak agreed that it is the right of the manufacturer to do however they please, so there is no reason to bring it up again. If he wants to be super pissed off about ESRB (who as far as I'm concerned very well could be doing their job), just let him.

No reasonable discussion can start with "try to stop being so angry." The bitter truth of the matter is that people are really upset that they can not play Manhunt 2. They are going to blame everyone - the christians, the ESRB, the Austrlians, and the tides for what has happened. Their anger seems to have an effect of creating straw-man arguments where they don't belong (e.g. "Nintendo's official website is flimsy") unsubstantiated claims (Manhunt 2 is WORSE THAN RAPE / Manhunt 2 is TAME) and other such nonsense.

Let them calm down. I was 14 or so when Space Quest VII and Leisure Suit Larry 8 were both cancelled (and my revered Game Gods fired), and I've been used to Full Throttle 2 / Freelance Police / etc. cancellation announcements since then. I don't know how young some of the dire Manhunt 2 fans are, but if this is the first time that a title they've been psyched about has been taken away from them it explains their behavior.

mykevermin

06-21-2007, 01:47 AM

Give it a rest, this isn't censorship. This is 3 companies not wanting adult only products on their consoles. Nothing more, nothing less. It is NOT censorship in any form. Rockstar is not being banned from releasing this game, they just can't use the 3 major consoles as an outlet. The ratings board gave it a rating it seems to have deserved, they did NOT ban this game from being played.

Ah, yes. The ol' "corporate bodies decided it for us, so it's ol' Adam Smith's invisible hand of the free market thinking for us!" argument.

So, to wit:

A) Hillary Clinton, Joe Lieberman, and Rick Santorum (at least that fucker's out of office) all co-sponsor a bill that would ban AO-rated games from release in the United States

B) Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo decide that they don't want to publish AO-rated games on their system

To be perfectly clear, one is censorship and the other is not?

Let me use a perfectly censor-worthy phrase: go fuck yourself.

BOTH
BOTH
BOTH are censorship, no matter how much you want to deny it. The free market is no longer free to decide. The consumer masses are having their choices limited without being given an opportunity to make those decisions for themselves. How perfectly undemocratic. This isn't some absurdity, like expecting your console to make you a ham sandwich upon demand. This is asking for your console of choice (Wii, PSP, PS2) to play a game conceived, coded, and created for play, and having that choice denied because of the content of the game, and not because it fails to meet some standards of playability and value.

Superman 64 should have been censored, not this. If you're such a goddamned fucking go-people-of-America-I-don't-want-anyone-telling-me-what-I-can-and-can't-do Republican like you play in the vs forum when you post some bullshit blog link that does the thinking for you, then you ought to defend the rights of people to decide what they do and do not want to play on their goddamned motherfucking videogame systems. I don't play the 345th iteration of "Bust-a-Move," because it's fucking boring and an awful puzzle game. I do, however, respect the wishes of those who want to play to be able to go to a store and buy it.

I bet you buy your explicit albums at Wal-Mart, too. Let ol' fat-cat corporate charlie make your purchasing decisions for you, but OH NOES! DON'T LET THE GOVERNMENT DO IT! THAT'S BAD!!

You're pitiful.

fart_bubble

06-21-2007, 01:49 AM

That sounds like some good wholesome fun.

WOW!! If that is true, who the hell signed off on that? There is no way that they could have thought that would have slipped through.

Brak

06-21-2007, 01:55 AM

The bitter truth of the matter is that people are really upset that they can not play Manhunt 2.
In a sense, yes. But not in the sense you're implying, I imagine. I assume that's the customer-rage, Veruca Salt brand of "I WANNA PLAY MANHUNT 2 NOW!"

I'm upset that I can't play Manhunt 2 because of the way the dominoes have fallen.

Like I said earlier, let's see what happens when GTA IV is submitted for its rating.

This is a sign of things to come.

CoffeeEdge

06-21-2007, 01:58 AM

The game deserves it's AO rating; Sony needs to allow the game on their system, regardless.
Uh, why does Sony need to do that, prey tell?

Like I said earlier, let's see what happens when GTA IV is submitted for its rating.

This is a sign of things to come.
So, what are you going to do when/if it gets rated M?

general "free market" nonsense claiming that policies are censorship
So, it's censorship for console makers to set rules of what they'll allow on their systems?

Is it also horrible, reprehensible, oppressive censorship that my local theaters don't play hardcore porno flicks along with the rest of the movies? Because according to your theory of what constitutes censorship or the lack therof, is would seem that it's the job of every entertainment medium provider to provide every type of content on their platform.

There's censorship, and there's companies having the freedom of having policies on the use of their product. You're telling me that these are always one and the same?

Brak

06-21-2007, 02:01 AM

So, it's censorship for console makers to set rules of what they'll allow on their systems?
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
So, what are you going to do when/if it gets rated M?
I don't know. Hence, "Let's see".

Don't try to prove me wrong in the future, knuckleduster.

CoffeeEdge

06-21-2007, 02:05 AM

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Uh, no it's not, for one thing. And furthermore, I only hope that with repetition, the general stupidity of people raising their "OMG FASCIST CENSORSHIP" flags will get this shit through their heads, that it is NOT fair to force companies to not be allowed to have policies on what may be done with their products.

Brak

06-21-2007, 02:06 AM

Uh, no it's not, for one thing.
It's a Benjamin Franklyn quote.And furthermore, I only hope that with repetition, the general stupidity of people raising their "OMG FASCIST CENSORSHIP" flags will get this shit through their heads, that it is NOT fair to force companies to not be allowed to have policies on what may be done with their products.
Jesus H. Christ.

Just... Nevermind.

Never-fucking-Goddamn-mind, Goddammit.

You: Why do you enjoy the flavor of goats milk?

Me: I don't.

You: Why do you enjoy the flavor of goats milk, though?

Me: I said that I don't.

You: Ok. But why do you like the flavor of goats milk?

Me: ... I don't.

You: Answer the fucking question!

I'd make better progress arguing with a fire hydrant.

CoffeeEdge

06-21-2007, 02:11 AM

It's a Benjamin Franklyn quote.
Jesus H. Christ.

Just... Nevermind.

Never-fucking-Goddamn-mind, Goddammit.

You: Why do you enjoy the flavor of goats milk.

Me: I don't.

You: Why do you enjoy the flavor of goats milk, though?

Me: I said that I don't.

You: Ok. Buy why do you like the flavor of goats milk?

Me: ... I don't.

You: Answer the fucking question!

I'd make better progress arguing with a fire hydrant.
We must be in different mirror realities or something, because you make no fucking sense to me.

Brak

06-21-2007, 02:13 AM

I think that's because you have the memory of a goldfish.

Scroll up to the top of the page when you asked me to answer the question you accused me of dodging.

mr ryles

06-21-2007, 02:19 AM

I'd like to fuck a neck hole.

:lol:

Calamityuponthee

06-21-2007, 02:49 AM

I think that's because you have the memory of a goldfish.

Holy shit. I haven't laughed that hard on these forums in a LONG time. Hilarious man.

Zen Davis

06-21-2007, 03:04 AM

I think that's because you have the memory of a goldfish.

Someone just got bitch slapped... :applause:

Logain8955

06-21-2007, 03:40 AM

Wow, that's over the top.

I really really want the AO version to be released on PC.

Dark Slayer120

06-21-2007, 03:47 AM

Ha ha, I can't read CE posts since he is on my ignore list but awesome Brak :applause:

PWNED.

botticus

06-21-2007, 08:06 AM

I hope you guys know that if you keep arguing about this censorship bit, I'm going to have to make some ridiculous relationship between console makers not allowing AO games on their consoles to the state of Florida not selling Pepsi products.

schuerm26

06-21-2007, 08:12 AM

A) Hillary Clinton, Joe Lieberman, and Rick Santorum (at least that fucker's out of office) all co-sponsor a bill that would ban AO-rated games from release in the United States

B) Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo decide that they don't want to publish AO-rated games on their system

To be perfectly clear, one is censorship and the other is not?

Two COMPLETELY different things. One is saying you CAN NOT release this game in the USA. The other is saying YOU CAN release the game in the USA, just please do it on a different platform. And to be perfectly clear, yes #1 would be considered censorship, #2 would be considered a business decision.

Nintendo and Sony are not banning you from playing this game, they are just saying, play it on a different system such as the PC.

Seems like you are going the route of ANYTIME Microsoft or Nintendo says no to a game for whatever reason, that it would be classified censorship. That is ridiculous. They are running a company and they obviously feel AO games don't provide any positives for their system, hence they don't release them. Plain and simple business decision. It is NOT censoring these companies from saying what they want. Rockstar is completely free to release this game as is via other alternatives.

daroga

06-21-2007, 08:21 AM

You know, even if the above list of things is fabricated, you've got to wonder what on earth could be in this game to give it an AO rating. After GTA, Saint's Row, etc. I wasn't sure anything could get the dreaded rating and that anything that wasn't T suitable got the M, to which the sky was the limit.

My money's still on that Rockstar never intended to release this AO version of the game, but submitted it to save a few bucks on marketing. Would there have been a 17 page thread about this here without this rating controversy? Would my wife know about this before I talked to her about it because she read it on a news website? I think not.

Apossum

06-21-2007, 08:49 AM

I think that's because you have the memory of a goldfish.

:applause: and the comprehension skills of a brick wall.

furyk

06-21-2007, 09:23 AM

My money's still on that Rockstar never intended to release this AO version of the game, but submitted it to save a few bucks on marketing. Would there have been a 17 page thread about this here without this rating controversy? Would my wife know about this before I talked to her about it because she read it on a news website? I think not.

It's possible, but I doubt it. Word on "the street" is that Take Two wants to be bought out post GTA. It doesn't make any sense for Rockstar to piss away that much money for a publicity stunt that very well may end up back firing in their faces. Stock holders no likey multi million dollar investments that may not come out.

As it stands, censorship has always been a part of games. It completely sucks that this game won't come out uncensored. It's hypocritical that retailers won't sell this game, but they will sell "unrated" versions of movies (even if not submitting to the ratings board is a marketing scheme more then an actual commentary on content). As a lover of exceptionally violent cinema, this does completely suck that Manhunt isn't coming out in its most unadulterated form, but on the same token the ESRB has been burned by Rockstar before and I could see them taking a better safe then sorry approach with the company in the future.

I can't really blame Sony or Nintendo for dropping this game, Nintendo especially. Both companies are still geared towards the under 21 market and an AO game is too unproven and will be met with substantial backlash especially considering that Manhunt 2 is more then likely violence for the sake of violence rather then violence for the sake of art. From a business standpoint, it's too much of a risk with not nearly enough reward.

I've always been a bit pissed at Rockstar since they seem to be the ones who put out the controversial content but never seem to get any of the punishment or criticism other then tangentially. I really hope that GTA 4 changes this with a game that is adult in terms of storytelling as well as content (which San Andres nearly did) but as it stands now Rockstar is the #1 reason why games take so much flack these days.

Chibi_Kaji

06-21-2007, 09:26 AM

camoor

06-21-2007, 09:40 AM

Ah, yes. The ol' "corporate bodies decided it for us, so it's ol' Adam Smith's invisible hand of the free market thinking for us!" argument.

So, to wit:

A) Hillary Clinton, Joe Lieberman, and Rick Santorum (at least that fucker's out of office) all co-sponsor a bill that would ban AO-rated games from release in the United States

B) Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo decide that they don't want to publish AO-rated games on their system

To be perfectly clear, one is censorship and the other is not?

Let me use a perfectly censor-worthy phrase: go fuck yourself.

BOTH
BOTH
BOTH are censorship, no matter how much you want to deny it. The free market is no longer free to decide. The consumer masses are having their choices limited without being given an opportunity to make those decisions for themselves. How perfectly undemocratic. This isn't some absurdity, like expecting your console to make you a ham sandwich upon demand. This is asking for your console of choice (Wii, PSP, PS2) to play a game conceived, coded, and created for play, and having that choice denied because of the content of the game, and not because it fails to meet some standards of playability and value.

Superman 64 should have been censored, not this. If you're such a goddamned fucking go-people-of-America-I-don't-want-anyone-telling-me-what-I-can-and-can't-do Republican like you play in the vs forum when you post some bullshit blog link that does the thinking for you, then you ought to defend the rights of people to decide what they do and do not want to play on their goddamned motherfucking videogame systems. I don't play the 345th iteration of "Bust-a-Move," because it's fucking boring and an awful puzzle game. I do, however, respect the wishes of those who want to play to be able to go to a store and buy it.

I bet you buy your explicit albums at Wal-Mart, too. Let ol' fat-cat corporate charlie make your purchasing decisions for you, but OH NOES! DON'T LET THE GOVERNMENT DO IT! THAT'S BAD!!

You're pitiful.

This is a rather subtle and complex point, IMO you argued it well.

I have noticed this for a while as well - the politicians and corporate heads are colluding to foster an enviornment of soft censorship - politicians do it for power and the corpos do it for money.

Apossum

06-21-2007, 10:53 AM

Two COMPLETELY different things. One is saying you CAN NOT release this game in the USA. The other is saying YOU CAN release the game in the USA, just please do it on a different platform. And to be perfectly clear, yes #1 would be considered censorship, #2 would be considered a business decision.

Nintendo and Sony are not banning you from playing this game, they are just saying, play it on a different system such as the PC.

Seems like you are going the route of ANYTIME Microsoft or Nintendo says no to a game for whatever reason, that it would be classified censorship. That is ridiculous. They are running a company and they obviously feel AO games don't provide any positives for their system, hence they don't release them. Plain and simple business decision. It is NOT censoring these companies from saying what they want. Rockstar is completely free to release this game as is via other alternatives.

you can't just forget that these companies have the power to make or break these developers by saying what can or can't be on their system.
Also, why are you breaking it down to such a minor technicality? That's exactly what these companies would use as an excuse to ban the game-- they'd say "we're not censoring it, you can release it on PC" then mutter "good luck selling it though, kekekeke" under their breath.

If I'm the only guy in the world that manufactures candy hearts, then have people send in the messages to put on them, then I tell a guy he can't put "fuck you" on one of my candy hearts, then I would be censoring him. Maybe there's one other guy who also makes something similar to candy hearts but they're too expensive, don't sell as well, and not as high quality, so it's not really worth it for the guy to put "fuck you" on one of those. So he's effectively in a censored position because he can only enjoy a "fuck you" message in private.

It's a situation like this that reminds us of one seriously bad side of console gaming-- console games aren't on a unified platform, giving the big 3 complete control over them. It's not usually problem, but this is a pretty big one.

mykevermin

06-21-2007, 11:06 AM

First, sorry 'bout them ad hominems in the last post - I blame the booze. Now, to business.

Two COMPLETELY different things. One is saying you CAN NOT release this game in the USA. The other is saying YOU CAN release the game in the USA, just please do it on a different platform. And to be perfectly clear, yes #1 would be considered censorship, #2 would be considered a business decision.

The argument is that it is more the collective "business decisions" of all major console makes have made it so that we will never see Manhunt 2 in the United States in its current form. The results of government intervention and corporate intervention are identical: we won't be playing Manhunt 2. I'm not sure how you can argue that one is censorship and one is not when the results are *precisely* the same. Sony and Nintendo's decision to not release this title is not the same thing as rejecting a game because it's lousy or unplayable: they are making moral decisions for us, the consumers. They have decided what they do and do not want us to be able to see, play, or do, based, again, on the content, and not how it plays, its length, lingering bugs/crashes...just because it's a "naughty" game.

Yet that isn't censorship? Please

Nintendo and Sony are not banning you from playing this game, they are just saying, play it on a different system such as the PC.

Seems like you are going the route of ANYTIME Microsoft or Nintendo says no to a game for whatever reason, that it would be classified censorship.

Nope. Again, content. They may reject a game if they think it stinks, it has bugs, if it's unplayable, if it doesn't look current, or if it may not generate sales. There are sound reasons for not releasing games; as much as it pains me to admit, it probably would not be a sound business decision to release "Shenmue III" on any game system. Not because of content, but because of the fact that it probably won't make any profit for Sega or whatever system it comes out for.

So, no, there are ample sound reasons for rejecting a game. This is not one of them. This is SNES Mortal Kombat all over again, but nobody has the guts that Sega did in 1992.

That is ridiculous. They are running a company and they obviously feel AO games don't provide any positives for their system, hence they don't release them. Plain and simple business decision. It is NOT censoring these companies from saying what they want. Rockstar is completely free to release this game as is via other alternatives.

Aw, shucks. I sold my N-Gage. And my Virtual Boy. And my Intellivision. And..well, you get the point. What "alternatives" do I have to play this on a console? Someone took issue with my previous post as well, saying that what I'm arguing is akin to asking a movie theater to show a porno. Well, there's a case where alternatives exist (and, ironically enough, those alternatives - porn on home video - are precisely what killed off the adult theaters of the 70's). If I want to watch "Librarians in Heat 12," I *can*. VHS, DVD, probably Blu-Ray and HD DVD...they probably even stock Betamax and videodisc versions of those movies. Manhunt 2? No dice. There are no alternatives. Again, whether it's taken care of in Congress or in Nintendo's boardroom, the end result is the same: censorship.

dopa345

06-21-2007, 11:11 AM

mykevermin

06-21-2007, 11:28 AM

The key difference is that A) violates the Constitution while B) does not. Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo are simply exercising their freedom of expression to not support AO games which I personally think is a bad business decision but well within their rights.

I'm sure there are ample cases where things such as (A) occur, however - more at the state level than federal.

Nevertheless, this kind of argument is going down a very different path. IMO, of two different events with the precise same results, if one is constitutionally protected, and the other not, then what we have is a loophole. Something to be looked into, that's for sure.

In honor of this topic, I'm going to be listening to Body Count's "Cop Killer" today intermittently. Another "business decision," right guys?

Right? After all, it was a smart business decision of Warner Bros to make sure I would steal their song instead of buying their album. Then again, they didn't give me a choice. Three cheers for Adam Smith everyone!

Manatee

06-21-2007, 11:28 AM

Did you guys hear? Jack Thompson is running for president. He must win.

Apossum

06-21-2007, 11:36 AM

It's weird because games are a super expensive and time consuming medium, but they're in line with the movie industry now. Any content can be in any movie, short of the obvious illegal stuff. this case shows the limits on expression in console gaming, at the hand of the big 3 (who are technically in their rights to reject Manhunt 2, but it doesn't mean they're not complete assholes...anywhoo..)

Do you guys think games should be the same way? what about publishing an unlicensed game? Tengen did it on the NES, as well as other companies...can Rockstar do that with manhunt and sell the game through non-traditional means? The returns would be shit, of course.

RyanTheGNR

06-21-2007, 11:53 AM

Now Sony isnt supporting the game either....

dopa345

06-21-2007, 11:55 AM

I'm sure there are ample cases where things such as (A) occur, however - more at the state level than federal.

Nevertheless, this kind of argument is going down a very different path. IMO, of two different events with the precise same results, if one is constitutionally protected, and the other not, then what we have is a loophole. Something to be looked into, that's for sure.

You introduced the (A) scenario in your argument (which I think is perfectly applicable) and I was responding that I consider those two situations very different. "Freedom of expression" doesn't give people carte blanche to say/do whatever we want; it just doesn't give the government the power to be the arbiter of what can or can't be expressed. However, privately, "freedom of expression" can and should be restricted. I'm sure myke, in your class, you don't let students swear at you or say racist epithets (or maybe you do, you never know about those liberal college campuses ;) ). I can't go around crying "fire" in a crowded theater, journalists can't make up news stories and not expect repercussions and companies making AO videogames can't expect to be guaranteed a license if they fail to meet the publishing standards of the console company. If I'm interpreting your last sentence (and please correct me if I'm wrong), you seem to be suggesting that console manufacturers should be forced into licensing AO games which I would argue violates their right to freedom of expression.

willardhaven

06-21-2007, 12:04 PM

furyk

06-21-2007, 12:20 PM

I don't know why people are arguing (on the internet especially) in favor of any kind of censorship (be it governmental or otherwise)... Is this a testament to the effectiveness of brainwashing?

Props to Mykevermin on always "keeping it real" in his posts, I wish more posts (including mine) were as well thought out.

EDIT: Why would you compare creating explicit and offensive artwork to slander or shouting fire in a crowded theater?

The argument is that these companies are out to please the government and not just satisfy their own moral scruples.

The companies aren't out to please the government, they're out there to sell systems and games. Anyone who thinks that if an AO game came out for a home console wouldn't lead to massive protests by the religious right is deluding themselves. I'm not in favor of any sort of censorship, but I also think you need to pick your battles. Manhunt 2 is probably the trashiest of trash games in terms of its content. I'd rather wait for a game that is actually trying to say something or advance the medium a la a Killer 7. I'm of the opinion that you fight for something where the explict content is incidental rather then the cause of the medium. The former battle is much more satisfying if won.

Just curious, but does anyone think Manhunter 2 would have been anything more then a murder/rape simulator at its AO core?

willardhaven

06-21-2007, 12:24 PM

Honestly I've never enjoyed a Rockstar game for more than 5 minutes.

I think they make boring software, but I don't like the way any of the companies are handling this.

Why can't they just publish the game as unrated like most movie studios?

You're right about people protesting though, I forget sometimes that people are insane.

BTW it's Manhunt... is Manhunter some gay porn game that also got an AO?

mykevermin

06-21-2007, 12:32 PM

You introduced the (A) scenario in your argument (which I think is perfectly applicable) and I was responding that I consider those two situations very different. "Freedom of expression" doesn't give people carte blanche to say/do whatever we want; it just doesn't give the government the power to be the arbiter of what can or can't be expressed.

So far, fair enough.

However, privately, "freedom of expression" can and should be restricted. I'm sure myke, in your class, you don't let students swear at you or say racist epithets (or maybe you do, you never know about those liberal college campuses ;) ).

Cute. :lol:

I can't go around crying "fire" in a crowded theater, journalists can't make up news stories and not expect repercussions and companies making AO videogames can't expect to be guaranteed a license if they fail to meet the publishing standards of the console company. If I'm interpreting your last sentence (and please correct me if I'm wrong), you seem to be suggesting that console manufacturers should be forced into licensing AO games which I would argue violates their right to freedom of expression.

Forced? Not at all. I wish someone would be this generation's Sega, since the companies seem to buy into this phony notion of defending themselves against presumed protests by those appalled by this game - a very vocal, very small minority who probably aren't going to be potential customers. I don't see how it's bad for business - TRU already (I think) stopped carrying M games, and Wal-Mart censors the shit out of their cds. It's nothing new. I merely wish that there was *some* opportunity to buy/play this game. If I have to order from Amazon, because retail stores don't carry it. Fine. Give me, and give everyone else, the opportunity to vote with our wallets. Don't take that choice away from me and tell me it's for my own good. I find that highly offensive.

The companies aren't out to please the government, they're out there to sell systems and games. Anyone who thinks that if an AO game came out for a home console wouldn't lead to massive protests by the religious right is deluding themselves.

This is something that should NEVEREVEREVER be used as a reason for not doing something. The religious right can and will find something to protest with or without Manhunt 2 in this world, and even those things should be held sacred and protected.

I can't believe you're advocating giving in and giving up on something because of the mere presumption of protests by a bloc of people who do nothing BUT complain about the state of moral decay in our society. If this were 80 years ago, they'd be complaining about jazz cats in zoot suits leading to moral depravity as well. Their great grandparents sure did.

Guess who you just gave power and legitimacy to? Jack Thomson. Well done, chap.

I'm not in favor of any sort of censorship, but I also think you need to pick your battles. Manhunter 2 is probably the trashiest of trash games in terms of its content. I'd rather wait for a game that is actually trying to say something or advance the medium a la a Killer 7. I'm of the opinion that you fight for something where the explict content is incidental rather then the cause of the medium. The former battle is much more satisfying if won.

I pick this one. It's not like Larry Flint collaborated with Annie Liebowitz or "art" types when he fought his fight. He fought for himself and his filthy, filthy, FILTHY magazine (Hustler makes my stomach churn). And he won. Not on any grounds of "art" or "trying to say something for the medium."

Just curious, but does anyone think Manhunter 2 would have been anything more then a murder/rape simulator at its AO core?

I'd like to be able to find out, but Grandma and Grandpa...err, Nintendo and Sony, won't let me buy it.

terribledeli

06-21-2007, 12:38 PM

My money's still on that Rockstar never intended to release this AO version of the game, but submitted it to save a few bucks on marketing. Would there have been a 17 page thread about this here without this rating controversy? Would my wife know about this before I talked to her about it because she read it on a news website? I think not.

It would be a foolish gamble for Rockstar to wager on. Let's face. Manhunt 2, even if retooled to a lower rating, will forever be an Adults Only title to the mainstream media. Even with a Mature rating, I doubt any retailers but Gamestop will carry it due to massive protests from angry housewives and part-time fathers.

Here's a dramatic reenactment of what I think occurred. Please use your own shadow puppets.

ESRB Bob: "What's next on the agenda, Bill?"

ESRB Bill: "Uh. Rockstar Games. Manhunt 2"

ESRB Sally: "Two? What did we give the first one?

ESRB Bill: "Let me check. Uh huh. Mature"

ESRB Sally: "Good. Easy work then."

Video is shown.

ESRB Bob: "The ESRB declares Manhunt 2 shall be rated Mature"

ESRB Sally: "Good. I'm hungry."

ESRB Bill: "Wait a minute guys. Did you see what platforms this game is coming out on? Nintendo Wii. Didn't you buy your daughter one of those things Bob?"

ESRB Bob: "Yeah. I did. I can't give her the opportunity to play this game. Let's rate Adults Only to make sure no children can play it! We'll be heroes to parents!"

Everyone cheers and the game is rated Adults Only.

If it were only a Playstation 2/PC title, I'm sure it would have been saved a death sentence. But since we're all sorta stuck in a "Nintendos 4 kidz" mentality, Manhunt 2 was rated on its platform choice instead of content. Which, again my opinion, means the ESRB failed. This is all speculation on my part, but we're on the internet.

CoffeeEdge

06-21-2007, 12:39 PM

Why can't they just publish the game as unrated like most movie studios?
Gee, I dunno. I've only explained that about 4,000 times already in this thread.

MarioColbert

06-21-2007, 12:47 PM

Just because a ban does not violate the constitution does not imply that it is somehow moral. The console companies have formed an effective monopoly on banning AO games, since none of the three would let the game appear on their systems. In other words, the effectiveness of the AO-rating is extremely similar to the UK government ban from a practical point of view. This is a crucial point, since so many of you that agree with the AO rated games being banned from consoles keep pointing out that it is somehow better than the goverment ban.

Don't get me wrong, it is better, because they theoretically could release the game for PC. Despite the fact that it can be legally sold in the United States, you can not argue that the title has been effectively shut down, with the only option of releasing it in its current form still requiring to alter the gameplay mechanics (as far as I'm concerned playing games on PC is not the same as playing games on a console). But this "marginally better" statement is quite far from "good enough" for anyone wanting to play the game.

I can not say that I can fall in either of the camps in supporting or condemning ESRB rating, mostly due to complete ignorance (apart from rumors) of the content of the game. Mykevermin hit the nail on the head when he said that he would like to find out and vote with his wallet. That is an inherent freedom that should not be violated.

I found this online when searching for high-res ESRB logos:
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/4121/maxesrbek8.th.jpg (http://img510.imageshack.us/my.php?image=maxesrbek8.jpg)
I found it to be a curious read.

botticus

06-21-2007, 12:48 PM

It would be a foolish gamble for Rockstar to wager on. Let's face. Manhunt 2, even if retooled to a lower rating, will forever be an Adults Only title to the mainstream media. Even with a Mature rating, I doubt any retailers but Gamestop will carry it due to massive protests from angry housewives and part-time fathers.

Here's a dramatic reenactment of what I think occurred. Please use your own shadow puppets.

ESRB Bob: "What's next on the agenda, Bill?"

ESRB Bill: "Uh. Rockstar Games. Manhunt 2"

ESRB Sally: "Two? What did we give the first one?

ESRB Bill: "Let me check. Uh huh. Mature"

ESRB Sally: "Good. Easy work then."

Video is shown.

ESRB Bob: "The ESRB declares Manhunt 2 shall be rated Mature"

ESRB Sally: "Good. I'm hungry."

ESRB Bill: "Wait a minute guys. Did you see what platforms this game is coming out on? Nintendo Wii. Didn't you buy your daughter one of those things Bob?"

ESRB Bob: "Yeah. I did. I can't give her the opportunity to play this game. Let's rate Adults Only to make sure no children can play it! We'll be heroes to parents!"

Everyone cheers and the game is rated Adults Only.

If it were only a Playstation 2/PC title, I'm sure it would have been saved a death sentence. But since we're all sorta stuck in a "Nintendos 4 kidz" mentality, Manhunt 2 was rated on its platform choice instead of content. Which, again my opinion, means the ESRB failed. This is all speculation on my part, but we're on the internet.:rofl: You mean out of the millions of PS2s sold (many times how many Wiis are out there right now), none of the children of ESRB panel members own one? Shocking!

If it is rerated as an M, it will be sold in stores, it will be played on Wiis and PS2s and PSPs. Regardless of how dramatic a change must be made to the game to get that rating, it will be assumed that all the AO content is gone (which it logically should be), so it would be difficult for the public to be more outraged over this than the original, or God of War, or any other M title.

willardhaven

06-21-2007, 12:49 PM

Gee, I dunno. I've only explained that about 4,000 times already in this thread.

Relax champ, I've only stopped in for the occasional joke or to read you guys flip out and argue (which is even funnier). Maybe you made a good point somewhere, but I didn't notice.

I was thinking Rockstar could self-manufacture the game, but I guess if they used Sony's development kits they could get sued. I was wondering why they couldn't 100% self-publish.

CoffeeEdge

06-21-2007, 12:49 PM

I think that's because you have the memory of a goldfish.
Oh, ouch. You're a regular Don Rickles, you know that?

So, you're pissed at the ESRB, I get that, but for what? Doing their job? Oh, no, you think it's a conspiracy, blah blah blah. Forget it.

I merely wish that there was *some* opportunity to buy/play this game.
And there could well be, on the PC.

CoffeeEdge

06-21-2007, 12:51 PM

Relax champ, I've only stopped in for the occasional joke or to read you guys flip out and argue (which is even funnier). Maybe you made a good point somewhere, but I didn't notice.

I was thinking Rockstar could self-manufacture the game, but I guess if they used Sony's development kits they could get sued. I was wondering why they couldn't 100% self-publish.
When game developers get licensed to use the console maker's SDKs and toolsets, they agree not to make AO games with them. It's not "they could be sued," they would be sued, and they'd probably never get licensed to develop for a console again. Very simple.

MarioColbert

06-21-2007, 12:56 PM

And there could well be, on the PC.

As I said earlier, "could be" is not the same as "good enough." I don't understand what you are arguing, CoffeeEdge. Here's a list of what you don't know:

whether or not ESRB rating is fair
whether or not Manhunt 2 is coming out for PC
whether or not Manhunt 2 will ever see light of day in its current formAnd here's a list of what you do know:

Nintendo and Sony would not allow an AO game on their consoles
Manhunt 2 can not be published on the systems it was developed for
ESRB rating and Nintendo policy are responsible for the aboveThe argument expressed is: "Nintendo & Sony Publishing Policies have effectively banned the current version of the game from existing, removing the public's ability to become educated first-hand of the game, and vote with their wallets."

I fail to see how this statement can possibly be considered false. I probably fail to reason clearly by asking you to deconstruct it for us.

PyroGamer

06-21-2007, 01:00 PM

So, it's censorship for console makers to set rules of what they'll allow on their systems?Yes.

Is it also horrible, reprehensible, oppressive censorship that my local theaters don't play hardcore porno flicks along with the rest of the movies?
No, but it is censorship.
You know, even if the above list of things is fabricated, you've got to wonder what on earth could be in this game to give it an AO rating. After GTA, Saint's Row, etc. I wasn't sure anything could get the dreaded rating and that anything that wasn't T suitable got the M, to which the sky was the limit.
I've always thought GTA was rather tame, really. I suppose prostitution was a bit much, but it was always portrayed tongue-in-cheek. As for Saints Row, well, harsher language and more crimes (none of which nearly as bad as the original one: murder) but that's about it.

GTA and Saints Row both clearly fit in the category of "M". All of their contents would be perfectly suitable in any R rated movie.

willardhaven

06-21-2007, 01:07 PM

I don't know why you are so angry at everyone, you're correct about the situation with developers/hardware manufacturers but it still sucks.

As said I suppose we would have to go to the PC for our games if we wanted to avoid this whole situation.

CoffeEdge,are you just trying to convince everyone that if it is legal it ceases to be censorship.

furyk

06-21-2007, 02:04 PM

This is something that should NEVEREVEREVER be used as a reason for not doing something. The religious right can and will find something to protest with or without Manhunt 2 in this world, and even those things should be held sacred and protected.

I can't believe you're advocating giving in and giving up on something because of the mere presumption of protests by a bloc of people who do nothing BUT complain about the state of moral decay in our society. If this were 80 years ago, they'd be complaining about jazz cats in zoot suits leading to moral depravity as well. Their great grandparents sure did.

Guess who you just gave power and legitimacy to? Jack Thomson. Well done, chap.

I'm not advocating giving in or giving up. I'm saying that's Nintendo and now Sony's rationale for not letting Manhunter 2 come out on their system. If you'd pull your head out of the sliced up, swollen, maggot infested vagina for a second you'd realize that when something has a budget of 20 million or whatever it has that it cannot be devoid from its corporate masters.

You know who gives Jack Thomson more power and legitimacy then I do? Fucking Rockstar by constantly putting out things to tweak him and people of his ilk. If you want to talk history, let's talk history. You know what happened at the end of the 1920s that those crazy religious psychos without any power did? Ever hear about a thing called the Hollywood Production Code? Here's what governed films for the thirty three years when it was in place:

General Principles

1. No picture shall be produced that will lower the moral standards of those who see it. Hence the sympathy of the audience should never be thrown to the side of crime, wrongdoing, evil or sin.

2. Correct standards of life, subject only to the requirements of drama and entertainment, shall be presented.

3. Law, natural or human, shall not be ridiculed, nor shall sympathy be created for its violation.

History repeats itself my friend and the country is becoming more censored in the mainstream media, not less. As it stands now, gaming is a part of the mainstream media. By the way, Jack Thompson already has legitimacy with the millions of hard line conservatives that agree with him.

I pick this one. It's not like Larry Flint collaborated with Annie Liebowitz or "art" types when he fought his fight. He fought for himself and his filthy, filthy, FILTHY magazine (Hustler makes my stomach churn). And he won. Not on any grounds of "art" or "trying to say something for the medium."

I think that's what has me most irritated about the whole Manhunt 2 situation. Larry Flint fought his fight on behalf of pornography, a completely adult medium. Rockstar is forcing the issue on behalf of games, a medium that spans everything from Mario Kart to Mortal Kombat. As a longtime anime fan, I remember when Blockbuster tagged all anime as adult because the representation of the medium at the time is that it was adult content only. I don't want to see Wicked City, a movie about spider ladies eating you with a vagina, make it harder to see something like Barefoot Gen, a movie about a young boy dealing with both the literal and metaphorical fallout of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima.

We all know politicians and corporations paint things with a broad brush. Why are we to think it'll be any different from gaming?

I'd like to be able to find out, but Grandma and Grandpa...err, Nintendo and Sony, won't let me buy it.

I would too. I didn't like the first Manhunt but it had some interesting gameplay gimmicks, especially the microphone aspect of the game. I think Rockstar's a talented development studio, but I think they're stifling creativity in the gaming medium in the future because they're forcing an absurd backlash that will lead to more, not less censorship with their games which strike me as closer to pornography then art.

Besides, it's a poor business decision to release an AO game on a console at this point. I hope in the future it isn't and we see a change, but as it stands right now there's too much risk and not enough reward for making a game like that. My guess is that the AO rating needs to prove itself viable in the PC market before we'll see it on consoles, and so far, it hasn't.

PyroGamer

06-21-2007, 02:09 PM

Those of you who are still furious about not being able to play the title as intended, it's quite possible a later PC port of the game will be available in an unedited version.

That's the best thing we can hope for at this stage (well, besides the AO rating being overturned on appeal).

onetrackmind

06-21-2007, 02:11 PM

Ahh the pussification of America!

furyk

06-21-2007, 02:14 PM

Ahh the pussification of America!

Technically, it's Japan via America.

Strell

06-21-2007, 02:15 PM

Jesus.

This is the biggest discussion on nothing I've ever seen in my life.

whoknows

06-21-2007, 02:31 PM

Jesus.

This is the biggest discussion on nothing I've ever seen in my life.
What? You mean 18 pages of

"this isnt coming out rated AO"
"yes it is"
"No"
"Ya huh"
"Whatever. It's so not"
"Ya it is"

is nothing?

willardhaven

06-21-2007, 02:39 PM

I think the thread has been pretty funny and interesting.

camoor

06-21-2007, 02:42 PM

You know who gives Jack Thomson more power and legitimacy then I do? Fucking Rockstar by constantly putting out things to tweak him and people of his ilk. If you want to talk history, let's talk history.

Yeah! Just like those damn witches who kept provoking the early Puritan colonists with their singing and dancing and cavorting around with Satan - they had it coming!

Brak

06-21-2007, 02:43 PM

What? You mean 18 pages of

"this isnt coming out rated AO"
"yes it is"
"No"
"Ya huh"
"Whatever. It's so not"
"Ya it is"

is nothing?
Wow.

I challenge you to find ANYONE posting that.

ANYONE.

whoknows

06-21-2007, 02:53 PM

Wow.

I challenge you to find ANYONE posting that.

ANYONE.
Pretty much whats been happening.

Someone says: If it comes out maybe it'll just be on Rockstars website
Coffee Edge: "OMG, NINTENDO AND SONY DONT ALLOW AO GAMES ON THEIR SYSTEMS"

Its been repeated over and over.

furyk

06-21-2007, 03:43 PM

Yeah! Just like those damn witches who kept provoking the early Puritan colonists with their singing and dancing and cavorting around with Satan - they had it coming!

I guess I see your point. I mean cigarette companies aren't held accountable for their products either, am I rite?

Making points like that is almost as irrelevant as coming into a discussion you think isn't worthwhile only to say, "Hay guyz. This talk sure is crap."

evanft

06-21-2007, 04:25 PM

Dingleberry

06-21-2007, 04:32 PM

So when's the torrent coming out? I'd mod my console if it was the only way to play it.

mr ryles

06-21-2007, 06:30 PM

Apossum

06-21-2007, 06:36 PM

I don't know what I hate more. The Fact that Sony and Nintendo don't allow AO games on their consoles. Or...... Actually that is all that tweaks me. If an AO rating is even in place yet you don't allow AO titles, whats the point of even having the rating?

PC games.

it is crappy. why should consoles be locked out? why's there a limit imposed on this medium to begin with? the situation is all around BS.

and I don't want to hear otherwise from the guys arguing that Sony and Nintendo are within their rights-- they are, but to quote the Big Lebowski: "You're not wrong Walter, but you're still an asshole."

mr ryles

06-21-2007, 06:40 PM

PC games.

it is crappy. why should consoles be locked out? why's there a limit imposed on this medium to begin with? the situation is all around BS.

and I don't want to hear otherwise from the guys arguing that Sony and Nintendo are within their rights-- they are, but to quote the Big Lebowski: "You're not wrong Walter, but you're still an asshole."

True.

It's like they are soooo concerned with their image that they won't allow a game on their console that doesn't fit their values.

PyroGamer

06-21-2007, 06:54 PM

and I don't want to hear otherwise from the guys arguing that Sony and Nintendo are within their rights-- they are, but to quote the Big Lebowski: "You're not wrong Walter, but you're still an asshole."
Exactly. They're well within their legal rights, but it's still absolute bullshit.

IAmTheCheapestGamer

06-21-2007, 07:49 PM

http://www.apfn.net/hitler_salute.jpg.

I agree with Scrubking in that anyone who considers censorship of a game, movie or dvd based on the fact that it would be for 'adults only' obviously hasn't been paying attention to the main age group that most games are targeted towards anymore. 18-34 ring a bell? Moreover, they are a nazi for depriving the rest of us of being able to watch digitized simu-sex between CJ and his girls in San Andreas, not that I care and if I wanted to watch that crap I could turn on Skinemax almost any night of the week.

I played the first Manhunt and while it was gory and sadistic at times, I enjoyed it. And, I will chime in with the same thing others have said already, if parents actually paid attention to what their kids are watching, playing and listening to, there would be no need to 'ban' this game because it's 'too graphic'.

Stupid people need to stop buying 10 year old little Johnny Spoiled Jackoff the latest Resident Evil or Mortal Kombat just because little Johnny wants it.

If not for all the morons out there doing that exact thing, even the ESRB wouldn't have been needed.

kill3r7

06-21-2007, 08:04 PM

I think someone needs to buy Nintendo and Sony some balls. I mean, Nintendo of all people really should be jumping at the chance to get an adult title with a lot of buzz around it for its system, especially since a good chunk of that system's catalog looks like it was made for old ladies and toddlers.

Yeah well when the majority of your investors oppose controversy it's next to impossible to grow some balls. All of us have to understand that gaming is big business and when you have hundred of thousands of shareholders you become quite sensitive to controversial material. That's why they should release the game on PC.

CoffeeEdge

06-21-2007, 08:27 PM

it is crappy. why should consoles be locked out? why's there a limit imposed on this medium to begin with? the situation is all around BS.
and I don't want to hear otherwise from the guys arguing that Sony and Nintendo are within their rights-- they are, but to quote the Big Lebowski: "You're not wrong Walter, but you're still an asshole."
Exactly. They're well within their legal rights, but it's still absolute bullshit.

Is it also absolute bullshit that they won't play Anal Teen Tryouts #15 at my local theater? Is it also bullshit that one can't buy a block of local public access cable to broadcast their homemade sex tapes? Is it also bullshit that I can't rent a billboard next to a daycare and plaster a photo of, I dunno, tubgirl or goatse on it? If this shit about console games means so much to you, do you apply that to your entire worldview?

If that's bullshit, then it's got to be reasonable bullshit, at least.

Edit:
And these examples don't have to be so extreme. What you guys are saying is that the creators of a medium should allow anything to be released on it, basically. In otherwords, it's their job, as a business, to cater to every market and customer, by not controlling content. So, should I get pissed that the local Chinese buffet doesn't serve tea and scones? If I got a job as a chef at a pizza restaraunt, and I believed that it was my artistic calling to bake and sell wedding cakes, are they repressing me by not letting me do it there, because it isn't part of their business? Should I be annoyed that the local trinket consignment shop can't sell my house for me?

It's not every business' duty to cater to every customer. Sony, MS, and Nintendo don't want to cater to people that want AO games. I don't think that's bullshit.

By the way: I want to gloat to whoever it was who was nitpicking about the console makers' AO game policies, because in the wake of all this Manhunt 2 shitstorm, all three have come out and publicly mentioned their stance about not allowing AO rated games.

MarioColbert

06-21-2007, 09:08 PM

Is it also absolute bullshit that they won't play Anal Teen Tryouts #15 at my local theater?

If that film had seen theatrical release, it's been played in multiple movie theaters accross the country. Pornography has a well-established distribution channel. Manhunt 2 created for PS2 and Wii does not.

Is it also bullshit that one can't buy a block of local public access cable to broadcast their homemade sex tapes?

There are other avenues for that as well. For a thorough listing how you can broadcast your sex tapes google "Adult YouTube Clones." Furthermore, in Austin TX there are places that would gladly pay you some money for shooting a porn video with your loved one. They'll take care of distribution and online broadcasting of that material. Manhunt 2, created for PS2 and Wii still fails to have a distribution channel.

Is it also bullshit that I can't rent a billboard next to a daycare and plaster a photo of, I dunno, tubgirl or goatse on it?

However you -can- post a picture of tubgirl or goatse for a much larger audience than the one that would spot your billboard. It can be enjoyed (as both have been) on the internet. Manhunt 2, created for PS2 and Wii has not and can not under current conditions.

If this shit about console games means so much to you, do you apply that to your entire worldview?

So far you've failed to show a single other monopoly-related example of straight-up refusal of publication of a work to its medium of choice. Porn Films exist as reels of film, video tapes, and DVD, along with numerous other formats. Manhunt 2, created for PS2 and Wii does not share this freedom - it can not be published.

If that's bullshit, then it's got to be reasonable bullshit, at least.

What's "that" refers to?

Since you are notorious for repeating yourself, I'll indulge you, if only for the sake of completeness.

And these examples don't have to be so extreme. What you guys are saying is that the creators of a medium should allow anything to be released on it, basically. In otherwords, it's their job, as a business, to cater to every market and customer.

No. SHOULD never entered the discussion, apart from a few extreme voices here and there. Sony and Nintendo sold you hardware, and at present you are unable to utilize it to serve your needs, despite the fact that you have paid for it.

So, should I get pissed that the local Chinese buffet doesn't serve tea and scones?

Again, I can point you towards a number of places that will sell you tea and scones. When it comes to Manhunt 2, developed for PS2 and Wii, you can not do the same for me.

If I got a job as a chef at a pizza restaraunt, and I believed that it was my artistic calling to bake and serve wedding cakes, are they repressing me by not letting me do it there, because it isn't part of their business?

This is the only statement of all yours that is applicable. Except it does not apply to us - it applies to Rockstar (we don't make wedding cakes a.k.a. Manhunt 2, developed for PS2 and Wii). Your sentiment is clear - their work is to video games as pizza is to wedding cake. If you didn't mean that the difference was as drastic, you wouldn't use this example.

Should I be annoyed that the local trinket consignment shop can't sell my house for me?

There are many places that would sell your house for you. When it comes to the stores that would sell Manhunt 2, developed for PS2 and Wii, you can not point me to one.

It's not every business' duty to cater to every customer. Sony, MS, and Nintendo don't want to cater to people that want AO games. I don't think that's bullshit.

Nobody said that it was their business, although keep reading. People have expressed dissapointment in the decision. By your book, it was somehow wrong of them to feel that way. They disagree. End of argument.

If you want to talk about morality, do keep in mind that Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo have created a very effective monopoly over which games will and will not get publishing credit total. You can not provide any other industry that does the same. All DVD players play every type of film. Companies that sell paper do not regulate what is printed upon it. Last but not least, computer technology manufacturers have no control over what software is run on their systems. The fact that anyone but myself controls the private contents of my hardware - especially the legal ones that do not involve criminal acts to produce - is a violation of a consumer's freedom.

By the way: I want to gloat to whoever it was who was nitpicking about the console makers' AO game policies, because in the wake of all this Manhunt 2 shitstorm, all three have come out and publicly mentioned their stance about not allowing AO rated games.

Why do you want to gloat? Please answer this question.

PyroGamer

06-21-2007, 10:13 PM

*snip*
*sigh*

There really is no use discussing this with you if that's the best you can come up with.

The post above me adequately responds.

mr ryles

06-21-2007, 10:19 PM

all of your points coffee edge are not even in the same realm as this. Manhunt 2 is just a game developed for a certain console. People have the option to buy it and with the AO rating you must be a certain age. It's not like little Mormon kids are going to be playing this. (Unless they got dipshit parents) Buying a game is an option, I am aware there is extreme gore and violence in this game, I am also aware it is just a game, and I want the option to buy it.

daroga

06-21-2007, 10:38 PM

Personally I don't care too much about this as I'd never play it anyway (never been one for the horor genre--the only "horor" game I've played is RE4).

But this all made me think, why can't Nintendo, Sony, etc. have these kinds of standards for games for technoligical standpoint? Why must games like Far Cry Wii and Bubble Bobble Revolution be allowed to be sold to consumers, despite being either broken or looking like my TV just threw-up in its mouth?

yukine

06-21-2007, 10:52 PM

Not sure if this has already been linked/discussed but here is a recent hands-on preview of the game: http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/action/manhunt2/news.html?page=1&sid=6172967&part=rss&tag=gs_wii&subj=6172967

Based on what we played, Manhunt 2 is shaping up to be a solid, intriguing follow-up to the original. The game's violence and gore, which have become the mother of all lightning rods for the title, are in full effect. But, while they've been ramped up from the original game, they're not exactly going to wreck Western civilization any more than, say, the Saw and Hostel movies--or just about any other of the slasher flicks that come in and out of vogue. What we saw was graphic for sure, and given a slightly unsettling twist by the interactivity offered by the Wii game, but ultimately it's nothing we haven't seen before in other games, movies, or even some television. We're curious to see the form Manhunt 2 ends up taking should Rockstar make changes to get a more retail-friendly rating. The game's violence is part of the dark story it's telling, not an element tossed in for shock value. If films such as Seven or Reservoir Dogs had been toned down, they arguably wouldn't have told the same stories. Hopefully Rockstar can figure something out and keep the game's dark vision intact. We'll keep you posted as Manhunt 2 is prepared for release.

Brak

06-21-2007, 11:57 PM

If that film had seen theatrical release, it's been played in multiple movie theaters accross the country. Pornography has a well-established distribution channel. Manhunt 2 created for PS2 and Wii does not.

There are other avenues for that as well. For a thorough listing how you can broadcast your sex tapes google "Adult YouTube Clones." Furthermore, in Austin TX there are places that would gladly pay you some money for shooting a porn video with your loved one. They'll take care of distribution and online broadcasting of that material. Manhunt 2, created for PS2 and Wii still fails to have a distribution channel.

However you -can- post a picture of tubgirl or goatse for a much larger audience than the one that would spot your billboard. It can be enjoyed (as both have been) on the internet. Manhunt 2, created for PS2 and Wii has not and can not under current conditions.

So far you've failed to show a single other monopoly-related example of straight-up refusal of publication of a work to its medium of choice. Porn Films exist as reels of film, video tapes, and DVD, along with numerous other formats. Manhunt 2, created for PS2 and Wii does not share this freedom - it can not be published.

What's "that" refers to?

Since you are notorious for repeating yourself, I'll indulge you, if only for the sake of completeness.

No. SHOULD never entered the discussion, apart from a few extreme voices here and there. Sony and Nintendo sold you hardware, and at present you are unable to utilize it to serve your needs, despite the fact that you have paid for it.

Again, I can point you towards a number of places that will sell you tea and scones. When it comes to Manhunt 2, developed for PS2 and Wii, you can not do the same for me.

This is the only statement of all yours that is applicable. Except it does not apply to us - it applies to Rockstar (we don't make wedding cakes a.k.a. Manhunt 2, developed for PS2 and Wii). Your sentiment is clear - their work is to video games as pizza is to wedding cake. If you didn't mean that the difference was as drastic, you wouldn't use this example.

There are many places that would sell your house for you. When it comes to the stores that would sell Manhunt 2, developed for PS2 and Wii, you can not point me to one.

Nobody said that it was their business, although keep reading. People have expressed dissapointment in the decision. By your book, it was somehow wrong of them to feel that way. They disagree. End of argument.

If you want to talk about morality, do keep in mind that Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo have created a very effective monopoly over which games will and will not get publishing credit total. You can not provide any other industry that does the same. All DVD players play every type of film. Companies that sell paper do not regulate what is printed upon it. Last but not least, computer technology manufacturers have no control over what software is run on their systems. The fact that anyone but myself controls the private contents of my hardware - especially the legal ones that do not involve criminal acts to produce - is a violation of a consumer's freedom.

Why do you want to gloat? Please answer this question.
Epic trouncing.

Scrubking

06-22-2007, 12:49 AM

Not sure if this has already been linked/discussed but here is a recent hands-on preview of the game: http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/action/manhunt2/news.html?page=1&sid=6172967&part=rss&tag=gs_wii&subj=6172967

Nice to see that the those who have played it say it DOESN'T DESERVE an AO rating just like some of us already knew it didn't. This is a railroading of massive proportions and I hope the head of the ESRB gets fired.

FriskyTanuki

06-22-2007, 12:53 AM

Don't think it matters in the end. Rockstar will definitely try for a rerating.

The ultra-violent videogame Manhunt 2 allows you to rape a woman shortly after you beheaded her in the brothel level called Honey Pot. Members of the ESRB were shocked when Daniel Lamb used his male reproduction organ and simulated a penetration in the bloody hole. Other gruesome parts include microwaving a living cat to death and being a witness of necrophilia in a cemetery in one of the later stage of the game.

Quote from an article from GAF. That is pretty disgusting.
I'm glad that that was proven false because it would make for quite a disturbing reel for a company that's had enough experience straddling the M/AO rating line for years. It would've been very naive for them to have included that type of stuff in the game and to expect an M rating for the game.

True.

It's like they are soooo concerned with their image that they won't allow a game on their console that doesn't fit their values.
I'm sure that Sony loved getting sued every time somebody sued Rockstar and all the related companies for GTA causing their kid to go nuts and kill people.

I doubt that it's solely based on values, but because retailers don't support the rating, they don't want to be even more liable for the games they already allow on their systems, and that they do have the right to decide what gets published on their systems, much to the chagrin of everyone here. Why should Sony and Nintendo be held hostage into having no control at all over what comes to their systems?

How is giving a game whose content is supposedly more severe than what an M-rated game gets suddenly a bad thing? The people that rated it, who are just normal people, felt that the content they saw wasn't suitable for an M rating. I'd like to see the reel that Rockstar sent to the ESRB that resulted in this instead of assuming it's because the ESRB are asses that wanted to ban the game. It's the fault of the retailers that don't stock AO games for your not being able to buy Manhunt 2 in a few weeks. I'd bet that if retailers did indeed allow AO games, Manhunt 2 would've still gotten an AO regardless. Since that is obviously not the case, everyone's free to come up their own reason as to why it got an AO rating. I can't see that the three random people that were assigned to the game took store policies, political issues, the policies of the console makers, and all that junk into consideration for their suggestion of what to rate AO.

As for the AO rating itself, if this link (http://www.esrb.org/ratings/search.jsp?titleOrPublisher=&rating=AO&ratingsCriteria=&platforms=&platformsCriteria=&javaScript=0&searchVersion=compact&content=&searchType=title&contentCriteria=&newSearch.x=27&newSearch.y=10)works for you, it shows that there are nearly two dozen games that have received the AO rating over the years.

Either way, Manhunt 2 just isn't my cup of tea, so I definitely won't be getting it regardless of whenever it does come out. The first game wasn't something I wanted to play either, and this one seems to take things further this time.

Nice to see that the those who have played it say it DOESN'T DESERVE an AO rating just like some of us already knew it didn't. This is a railroading of massive proportions and I hope the head of the ESRB gets fired.
Please point out where they said that "Manhunt 2 doesn't deserve an AO rating." They only say that they hope the game's story and atmosphere isn't sacrificed to get the game down to an M rating.

Scrubking

06-22-2007, 01:10 AM

Based on what we played, Manhunt 2 is shaping up to be a solid, intriguing follow-up to the original. The game's violence and gore, which have become the mother of all lightning rods for the title, are in full effect. But, while they've been ramped up from the original game, they're not exactly going to wreck Western civilization any more than, say, the Saw and Hostel movies--or just about any other of the slasher flicks that come in and out of vogue. What we saw was graphic for sure, and given a slightly unsettling twist by the interactivity offered by the Wii game, but ultimately it's nothing we haven't seen before in other games, movies, or even some television. .

mykevermin

06-22-2007, 01:13 AM

As for the AO rating itself, if this link (http://www.esrb.org/ratings/search.jsp?titleOrPublisher=&rating=AO&ratingsCriteria=&platforms=&platformsCriteria=&javaScript=0&searchVersion=compact&content=&searchType=title&contentCriteria=&newSearch.x=27&newSearch.y=10)works for you, it shows that there are nearly two dozen games that have received the AO rating over the years.

Hmm. That's a fascinating link, actually. One that's *really* telling of what matters in terms of offensiveness in our culture. Only *5* of the 23 AO games have anything related to "violence" in their descriptors. One of them (Thrill Kill) was never released, and another (GTA: San Andreas) was originally an "M" title until "Hot Coffee" was found (and we all know that had nothing to do with violence). Moreover, another of the remaining 3 was the director's cut of Indigo Prophecy. Knowing that was an "M" title on the consoles, let's compare the two, shall we?

The changes in the descriptors are as follows: (console:pc)
partial nudity:nudity
sexual themes:strong sexual content

The remaining descriptors are identical.

So, we're left with only 2 AO games with violence in them. "Lula 3D" and "Critical Point," after performing a cursory search on the titles, are...*ahem* clearly not rated AO for their violent content. Lula 3D looks like a Barb Wire platformer, while Critical Point has a hentai vibe to it.

So, we're left with, frankly, only *ONE* game so far that was rated AO on account of its violent content: Thrill Kill. And we all know how that one went.

The shame our culture has towards nudity and sexuality, and the fact that the slightest suggestion of it puts our culture up in arms, is bothersome (particularly when we consider that shooting people in games is totally fine, unless blood is shown). It's a very backwards culture, IMO. That's how the MPAA is, pretty much, so it comes as little surprise that the ESRB is nearly identical. Nevertheless, it's still troublesome to see that the AO games thus far have not, at all, come out for any consoles. Not that I want to play "Lula 3D." But I would like to try Manhunt 2; now I don't because Nintendo is afraid of dumb fucking parents who would buy this garbage for their kids and then file a lawsuit. Or some "image" thing.

FriskyTanuki

06-22-2007, 02:02 AM

.
Yeah, they never say "it doesn't deserve an AO rating." They even compare it to Saw and Hostel, which from what I've seen and heard of those movies, I don't believe there are many games, if any at all, that deal with the kind of extremely graphic scenes that those movies contain.

MarioColbert

06-22-2007, 05:27 AM

Not that I want to play "Lula 3D."

I looked at the very same article linked through the Wikipedia's ESRB Criticisms and Contrversy page. I would have posted it, but the discussion had nothing to do with ESRB at that point. And Wikipedia lists ESRB's stance on sexuality (which you have documented quite well yourself) on the top of its listing of criticisms.

Read Lula 3D MobyGames page... Turns out it is an adventure game, and there are lot of quite positive reviews that, get this, PRAISE THE PUZZLES. The setting involves a porn film that you're directing? Starring in? I don't know, I was at work.

In a recent interview with ESRB, it is mentioned that AO is a specific tag that isn't attached to age as much as it warns about "extreme" content. I can't say that this statement would necessarily work in their favor - they are admitting, in part, that the rating is designed to be unfavorable. The ESRB representative also claimed that there was no age differences between NC-17 and R - rated films, since both "cut off at 17" (not true, visit MPAA website for details, though now I'm just being a dick).

And last but not least, Thrill Kill was AO due to sadomasochistic (i.e. sexual) overtones (again, same old interview). It is safe to assume that AO is basically a label for pornographic games, or games that are seen as "too sexual." It is quite possible that Manhunt 2 rating is the first of its kind, unless of course there is a Cold Soda Mod in there somewhere.

botticus

06-22-2007, 08:18 AM

The shame our culture has towards nudity and sexuality, and the fact that the slightest suggestion of it puts our culture up in arms, is bothersome (particularly when we consider that shooting people in games is totally fine, unless blood is shown). It's a very backwards culture, IMO. That's how the MPAA is, pretty much, so it comes as little surprise that the ESRB is nearly identical. Nevertheless, it's still troublesome to see that the AO games thus far have not, at all, come out for any consoles. Not that I want to play "Lula 3D." But I would like to try Manhunt 2; now I don't because Nintendo is afraid of dumb fucking parents who would buy this garbage for their kids and then file a lawsuit. Or some "image" thing.The ESRB president admitted as much that their ratings have to fit the mood of the culture. So it really should be little surprise. What good does a rating system do if it doesn't mesh with the expectations and understanding of those who are reading it?

http://kotaku.com/gaming/feature/esrb-head-talks-ao-manhunt-2-and-community-standards-271159.php

Two important points, I think:

2. Has the ESRB ever rated a game Adults Only due to violence?

PV: Yes. The AO rating has been assigned more often than it actually ends up appearing on product shipped. Our system affords publishers the opportunity to modify and resubmit games that receive the AO rating in light of the business ramifications that such a rating currently presents.

5. In general, when rating a game does the ESRB use a system that relies on community standards to decide what is and isn't an acceptable level of violence or sexual references in a game? If so, do you feel those standards shift over time?

PV: By their very nature, as well as to maintain credibility and trust, ratings must reasonably reflect the current cultural norms and community standards of those for whom they are intended. That is why we regularly conduct research across the country to gauge parental agreement with the ratings. Our most recent study found that parents agreed with the ratings we assigned 82% of the time, and 5% of the time they actually found our rating "too strict." The FTC's report from April of this year also found strong agreement with ratings, and in fact reported that 87% of the parents they surveyed are "somewhat" to "very" satisfied with the ESRB ratings. We'll continue to ensure that parents are satisfied with the ratings we assign.

Snake2715

06-22-2007, 09:02 AM

You know as much as it gets ragged on I enjoyed manhunt and the later stages were not terrbile by any means. The ending was a bit difficult to figure out what triggered it but overal I would say a 7-8 in a game.

I was looking forward to Manhunt two based on what I played in the first. Lets hope good news comes from this and they get it fixed and released on Wii.

GuilewasNK

06-22-2007, 09:15 AM

Not that I want to play "Lula 3D."

I actually have the German demo installed on my PC. It really not that bad at all.

mykevermin

06-22-2007, 09:39 AM

Two important points, I think:

Regarding the frst quote: if there *were* titles rated AO in terms of violence, wouldn't they be on the ESRB page? Unless, of course, they revised the game to get an "M." We may never know what games were AO due to violence in that case.

I respect the "cultural norms" argument, and wasn't arguing against it (culture is reciprocity, after all). It merely sickens me that sexuality is so much more taboo than violence - and that's not just limited to videogames. Not at all.

Hmm. Y'know what would be satisfying? If they revised Manhunt 2 so that it was an "M" game, and then put out the "AO" version months later on the PC for a budget price. This way, I could buy the Wii version (used, of course; Nintendo isn't going to make money off of me this time around), and if there were substantial differences, play it as it was meant to be played.

Not satisfying in the sense that we'd be able to circumvent our puritanical overlords, of course...but at least we'll be able to play the game.

I don't see why they couldn't pull a "Wal-Mart" here; millions of dumb motherfuckers buy music at Wal-Mart every year (me? I spent $2 on a whistle there in the past 12 months). Millions of dumb motherfuckers willingly fork over cash for music stripped of naughty language, devoid of their artistic integrity, and sanitized for the public's consumption. Me? I buy my music elsewhere for that very reason. As a consumer, I'm given an option. I can say "no thanks, Wal-Mart, you can keep your censored music, your dichotomous christian-and-female-smut-novel book section, and your wealth of firearms; I'm going to buy my music elsewhere."

Now, I can't do that with Manhunt 2 - if one version is "M" and one "AO," what's so hard to tell about the two discs? Gamestop has done a savvy job at not buying GTA: San Andread 1st Edition - so they've proven, logistically, they could do this again.

Nope, nope, nope. I get nothing. I'm glad I have Jack Thomson sleeping in the same bed as Nintendo, Sony, and MS: looking out for my best interests, being a highly impressionable 28 year old. :roll: :lol:

I actually have the German demo installed on my PC. It really not that bad at all.

I'm not disputing the quality of any of the AO games (except Thrill Kill, which I have played; Christ almighty that's some shameful gameplay right there). I am disputing that there are any AO-rated games that earned it b/c of their violent content.

PyroGamer

06-22-2007, 10:56 AM

I'm sure that Sony loved getting sued every time somebody sued Rockstar and all the related companies for GTA causing their kid to go nuts and kill people.
I didn't even think of that.

Has Sony really been sued over GTA??

Scrubking

06-22-2007, 11:44 AM

Yeah, they never say "it doesn't deserve an AO rating." They even compare it to Saw and Hostel, which from what I've seen and heard of those movies, I don't believe there are many games, if any at all, that deal with the kind of extremely graphic scenes that those movies contain.

it's nothing we haven't seen before in other games!

it's nothing we haven't seen before in other games!

it's nothing we haven't seen before in other games!.

PV: By their very nature, as well as to maintain credibility and trust, ratings must reasonably reflect the current cultural norms and community standards of those for whom they are intended. That is why we regularly conduct research across the country to gauge parental agreement with the ratings. Our most recent study found that parents agreed with the ratings we assigned 82% of the time, and 5% of the time they actually found our rating "too strict." The FTC's report from April of this year also found strong agreement with ratings, and in fact reported that 87% of the parents they surveyed are "somewhat" to "very" satisfied with the ESRB ratings. We'll continue to ensure that parents are satisfied with the ratings we assign.

I also want to say that this quote horribly incriminates the head of the ESRB because the acceptable social standard IS sex, nudity and violence in 17+ content. Hostel, Saw and the countless other R movies prove this. Hell there is more sex/nudity on TV than is allowed in a damn videogame.

So clearly she is NOT adhereing to social standards and treating videogames the way Jack Thompson and Co. want her to.

botticus

06-22-2007, 12:04 PM

The only thing you need to ask is, did GameSpot play the same parts of the game that were sent in video form to the ESRB for rating? We don't know the answer to that question.

MarioColbert

06-22-2007, 12:47 PM

.So clearly she is NOT adhereing to social standards and treating videogames the way Jack Thompson and Co. want her to.

I'm going to have to say that this post of yours "wins" hard. Are you as frustrated as I am that now there will be discussion in what the Wii controls add to the "murder simulator" side of the game every time we will be discussing graphic violence in a video game?

The only thing you need to ask is, did GameSpot play the same parts of the game that were sent in video form to the ESRB for rating? We don't know the answer to that question.

You are right, we don't. But that does not necessarily annihilate the quote Scrub had posted. Furthermore, it does not matter if the game contains material we've seen or not seen before, because even if it did involve grotesque and awful images - WE (consumers) get no say in it. In my not-so-humble opinion, "tasteless" is not a concept that should be defined as a universal truth, especially in context-sensitive cases such as a video game.

mykevermin

06-22-2007, 12:57 PM

So clearly she is NOT adhereing to social standards and treating videogames the way Jack Thompson and Co. want her to.

Well, that certainly boils down my longwinded points and advances them to a point where, regretfully, the word "pwn" may be deserved. Indeed, since sex seems to be the standard-bearer separating M from AO, this is anomalous and an unfortunate reaction to the need to prove the ESRB's legitimacy in the eyes of people who will never view it as legitimate.

furyk

06-22-2007, 01:17 PM

Well, that certainly boils down my longwinded points and advances them to a point where, regretfully, the word "pwn" may be deserved. Indeed, since sex seems to be the standard-bearer separating M from AO, this is anomalous and an unfortunate reaction to the need to prove the ESRB's legitimacy in the eyes of people who will never view it as legitimate.

Well, in fairness to the ESRB, the standard for MPAA seems to be whether or not you show a dick between NC-17 and R.

There's no way the ESRB is going to around in two years sadly. It's unfortunate too because I think we'll go to explicit censorship rather then censorship by circumstance.

And as someone who owns AO titles (a friend who legally bought them sent them to me and that's the gods honest truth), most of them are remarkably terrible.

botticus

06-22-2007, 01:32 PM

mykevermin

06-22-2007, 01:39 PM

Well, in fairness to the ESRB, the standard for MPAA seems to be whether or not you show a dick between NC-17 and R.

Somewhat. I recall being a young lad, and going with my sister and mother to see a film called "The Crying Game." When Jaye Davidson's penis hit the screen - we were all, of course, shocked, for a myriad of reasons - I recall my mother (who's a veryveryvery conservative woman, politically, and seems to have allergies to progressive ideologies) cheering, saying "well, they show enough tits on movies, it's about time we get to see some penis."

So, yeah, that anecdote (1) disproves your argument at the same time it (2) totally proves your argument and (3) will probably continue to haunt me (not the penis on the screen, but my mother cheering it like it was tearing down walls of penis-laden oppression)

There's no way the ESRB is going to around in two years sadly. It's unfortunate too because I think we'll go to explicit censorship rather then censorship by circumstance.

Hmm. An interesting claim; what do you think would replace it? Gov't regulations? No other medium has that (well...FCC, I suppose). Another industry bureaucracy? That won't last either, since the same attacks levied against the ESRB will apply to the next group to come along (industry complicity).

And as someone who owns AO titles (a friend who legally bought them sent them to me and that's the gods honest truth), most of them are remarkably terrible.

I'm very unsurprised. Looking at the list FriskyTanuki posted, many of those titles seemed to come from boardroom ideas where the best and brightest thought like this:

"Everybody likes Bejewled, right? Of course! So, how to we make it even *better*? RIGHT! IT'S GOING TO BE LIKE BEJEWELED, BUT WITH TITS!"

XMastaCrackaX

06-22-2007, 01:41 PM

The recent talks about Manhunt 2 being preliminarily rated AO just proves how the ESRB has failed. If there is an AO rating then it should be used and then put on store shelves with the rating on it. but if nobody will sell an AO rated game in which in my opinion is like an R rated movie by todays standards then the ESRB has failed, Why have a rating if it is never used.
Eventually this issue will come to more and more games. Because of more and more adults wanting more games pointed in there interest. These games can assume the role of the next blockbuster hollywood film that would have content that if it was in a game would be rated AO hands down.
Actually on another point alltogether i feel that games should have to be re-rated every 5 years. because on todays standards a game such as Mortal Kombat which was rated M when released would not be rated M on todays standards it would probably be rated T.
This is just pathetic how the ESRB is assuming the role of Judge Jury and Executioner and is practically censoring a game from coming to the US because stores such as Blockbuster, Gamefly, Bestbuy, and Walmart which make up a huge portion of the gaming market will not carry AO rated games.

Ikohn4ever

06-22-2007, 01:44 PM

i am not saying they would do this, but could they give it out for free. Like say they sold a manhunt keychain for 50 dollars and gave away a free copy of manhunt 2, would that be allowed?

botticus

06-22-2007, 01:47 PM

And since I've never really looked into the MPAA at all, we should probably just give up on this whole argument regarding the ESRB specifically:

Many believe that the intent of the various ratings has been subverted. For example, there is widespread access to R-rated movies even for those under 17, while the NC-17 rating spells commercial death for a film, undermining its purpose. Film critic Roger Ebert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Ebert) has called for an entirely new system of ratings designed to address these issues. Some people criticize film-makers for editing their works to conform to the various ratings. For example, they might excise some extreme violence or sex to avoid an NC-17, or even "spice up" a children's movie so as to move from G to PG and appeal to older children. The ratings system itself is attacked as de facto censorship by free-speech activists, and conversely as too lenient in its content standards by some conservative critics, priest, lawyers, and parental review sites. A criticism that has come from both sides is that the MPAA tends to be considered more complacent with violent content than sexual one. Other criticisms have included that there is more bias against homosexual sexual content than heterosexual. Also, movies with male genitalia tend to get a "harsher" rating than those with female genitalia.
Gee, sound familiar?

PyroGamer

06-22-2007, 01:53 PM

To summarize:

Censorship is bad, m'kay. Ratings enforced by anyone but parents are bad, m'kay. Christian conservatives are bad, m'kay. PC liberal whack-jobs are bad, m'kay.

Ikohn4ever

06-22-2007, 02:00 PM

And since I've never really looked into the MPAA at all, we should probably just give up on this whole argument regarding the ESRB specifically:

Gee, sound familiar?

i mean just look at tv, you are allowed to show man ass all over the place, i doubt i have seen one woman ass on tv, so some how censorship got reversed for that

VipFREAK

06-22-2007, 02:04 PM

I have a hard time with why you all are dissappointed. I mean come on... It's those retards Rockstar... What did they/you expect?? :cough:gta:cough:

Scrubking

06-22-2007, 02:27 PM

I guess you guys haven't paid attention to the culture surrounding video games much if you don't think they're adhering to a social standard. Sex in movies? Not a lot of uproar unless it's approaching pornography, happens in just about every other R-rated movie. Sex in games? Chaos. Violent content is generally the same. People get shot all the time in PG-13 movies, but have a human killed in a game, generally moves it to an M. Blame in on Jack Thompson, or that video games are being seen as "for kids" still, whatever, the fact is that's how games are judged, and that's what rating systems have to reflect.

I'm sure none of us like it, but just how when I was a kid (some 20 years ago), it seemed like any movie that had an inkling of nudity was an R, though nowadays some PG-13 movies can sneak through with the same - the same will likely occur with games as the industry matures.

So videogame ratings have to reflect the very wrong, biased, irrational attitude that a minority of people have towards games? WTF?

Ratings shouldn't be given based on how videogames are viewed by Jack Thompson, Leeland Yee and the blame games first crowd. They should be given based upon the typically accepted content in ALL FORMS OF MEDIA.

IT's like going to another country where women typically go to the beach topless and saying that your beach can't be topless because a minorty of people don't agree with it even though the acceptable standard is blatantly obvious.

If sex, nudity and violence are typically found in M rated (17+), content (in all forms of media), then THAT is the standard. And the ESRB has willingly chosen to not abide by it and fuck gamers over.

botticus

06-22-2007, 02:29 PM

So videogame ratings have to reflect the very wrong, biased, irrational attitude that a minority of people have towards games? WTF?

Ratings shouldn't be given based on how videogames are viewed by Jack Thompson, Leeland Yee and the blame games first crowd. They should be given based upon the typically accepted content in ALL FORMS OF MEDIA.

IT's like going to another country where women typically go to the beach topless and saying that your beach can't be topless because a minorty of people don't agree with it even though the acceptable standard is blatantly obvious.

If sex, nudity and violence are typically found in M rated (17+), content (in all forms of media), then THAT is the standard. And the ESRB has willingly chosen to not abide by it and fuck gamers over.Would you prefer the 82-87% of parents who agree with the ESRB's ratings? You can reflect whatever sample size you want, it's the same thing. And yes, the ESRB ratings are tailored towards parents, because gamers don't give a shit what the rating of the game is. Unless it's AO.

And as we've just shown with examples of movies and TV, there is no standard for acceptable content across all media. In your example, it would be more like saying that you go to a country where women typically go to the beach topless and saying that your skating rink can't be topless.

Strell

06-22-2007, 02:33 PM

"Everybody likes Bejewled, right? Of course! So, how to we make it even *better*? RIGHT! IT'S GOING TO BE LIKE BEJEWELED, BUT WITH TITS!"

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2002/20021018h.gif

Scrubking

06-22-2007, 02:56 PM

Would you prefer the 82-87% of parents who agree with the ESRB's ratings? You can reflect whatever sample size you want, it's the same thing. And yes, the ESRB ratings are tailored towards parents, because gamers don't give a shit what the rating of the game is. Unless it's AO.

And as we've just shown with examples of movies and TV, there is no standard for acceptable content across all media. In your example, it would be more like saying that you go to a country where women typically go to the beach topless and saying that your skating rink can't be topless.

So videogames and movies are like a skating rink to a beach? They have that little in common? In spite of their constant colabortation? I couldn't disagree more.

And it doesn't matter what polled parents think. What matter is the content that is ALREADY CURRENTLY CIRCULATING. They can say manhunt 1 is AO all day long, but their opinion is trumped by the fact that tons of other media ALREADY have that content and are freely circulating. Again typical social standard isn't what a minority of people or a group of polled parents think.

camoor

06-22-2007, 03:11 PM

To summarize:

Censorship is bad, m'kay. OKRatings enforced by anyone but parents are bad, m'kay.huh? Christian conservatives are bad, m'kay. Agreed PC liberal whack-jobs are bad, m'kay. OK, but not as bad as #3

botticus

06-22-2007, 03:16 PM

So videogames and movies are like a skating rink to a beach? They have that little in common? In spite of their constant colabortation? I couldn't disagree more.

And it doesn't matter what polled parents think. What matter is the content that is ALREADY CURRENTLY CIRCULATING. They can say manhunt 1 is AO all day long, but their opinion is trumped by the fact that tons of other media ALREADY have that content and are freely circulating. Again typical social standard isn't what a minority of people or a group of polled parents think.The parents are the ones the ratings are intended to instruct/educate. If the parents don't agree with the ratings and can't use them to determine what games are suitable for thier children, the ratings are worthless. And Manhunt was rated M by the same people you're railing against, so I guess I'm confused, unless you're still standing by the fact that at least some parts of Manhunt 2 are no worse than the original.

dallow

06-22-2007, 03:19 PM

One of my fave PA's of all time.

CoffeeEdge

06-22-2007, 05:13 PM

Sony and Nintendo sold you hardware, and at present you are unable to utilize it to serve your needs, despite the fact that you have paid for it.
Everything you said was nonsense and I don't care to reply to anything but this.

So, when they sell me a game system, it's their responsibility to have games catering to EVERY taste imaginable on it? Because I have some pretty specific ideas for games that simply do not exist, and for many reasons, are more or less impossible to ever be created. So, should I be pissed that they don't have these games?

You're all full of horseshit, by the way.

hohez

06-22-2007, 05:44 PM

The game will be out by the end of august. Just wait and see. This is all just rockstar making a big controversial hullaboo over themselves to build up hype. I bet they have the M rated version ready to go and will get it rated in a month or so just in time for people to swarm all over it to see what all this taboo bullshit crisis is about.

Cut and pasted response from me! Coming to a manhunt thread near you, June 2007!

mykevermin

06-22-2007, 06:57 PM

So, when they sell me a game system, it's their responsibility to have games catering to EVERY taste imaginable on it? Because I have some pretty specific ideas for games that simply do not exist, and for many reasons, are more or less impossible to ever be created. So, should I be pissed that they don't have these games?

While I don't think they should be required to make a, for example, ham sandwich-making simulator using the Wiimote, if a developer *does*, in fact, make one, I don't see why Nintendo should stand in the way of it selling (unless it's a garbage game - but that never stopped a console maker before).

You're all full of horseshit, by the way.

Well, looks like we lose the argument. That right there pretty much takes all our arguments and logically tears them to shreds. You study at the Bill O'Reilly school of debate, kiddo? :roll:

FriskyTanuki

06-22-2007, 07:40 PM

I didn't even think of that.

Has Sony really been sued over GTA??
Yeah, they generally do get named along with Take-Two and Rockstar in these suits.

http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/action/grandtheftauto3/news.html?sid=6139347

Thompson had been representing the families of two police officers and a dispatcher killed in June 2003 (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6130720.html) by then-18-year-old Devin Moore in a suit against Sony, Take-Two Interactive, Rockstar Games, Wal-Mart, and GameStop

http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/action/grandtheftautovicecity/news.html?sid=6158619

Attorneys in the trial of convicted killer Cody Posey have named Sony Computer Entertainment America, Take-Two Interactive, and Rockstar as responsible for a triple homicide that took place in New Mexico in 2004, according to news outlets in the state.

Well, in fairness to the ESRB, the standard for MPAA seems to be whether or not you show a dick between NC-17 and R.
Or in the case of Team America, the difference is how long you show puppets having sex (no genitalia, but you can see nipples). The MPAA has some of the strangest requirements for pushing movies up in ratings. I've heard rumors that smoking is now something that'll push it up, though I don't know if that's true. The Snakes on a Plane guys mentioned that if they stayed at PG-13, they'd only get to say fuck once, but moving to R allowed Sam Jackson to say motherfucker twice in one sentence. Either way, their ratings don't mean shit once they hit retail, as pretty much any studio releases unrated releases that kids can pick up without hesitation from cashiers.

I'm surprised everybody seems to be pissed at the ESRB, but not the retailers. Retailers sell NC-17 and unrated movies all of the time, but attempt to release an AO game and there's no chance they'll stock it.

Scrubking

06-22-2007, 10:11 PM

Take-Two's decision to temporarily suspend distribution of Manhunt 2 is a victory for parents and children. Because of the their thoughtful decision to give Manhunt 2 its strongest rating, 'Adults Only,' the ESRB has sent a strong message to Take-Two and other game makers that they no longer can push the envelope on gratuitous violence in videogames. The ESRB showed real leadership in assigning this rating and further evidence it is making significant progress in keeping extremely violent and graphic materials out of children's hands.

Hopefully Take-Two has learned from its Manhunt 2 experience and will undertake preventive measures to ensure its future games, including Grand Theft Auto IV, are appropriate for families and gamers.

As gaming technology continues to change, we hope to continue to work with the ESRB to ensure that future games have appropriate content and context for children.
http://wii.ign.com/articles/798/798779p1.html

We lose, idiots who don't even play videogames WIN!! FTW!

FriskyTanuki

06-22-2007, 10:40 PM

http://wii.ign.com/articles/798/798779p1.html

We lose, idiots who don't even play videogames WIN!! FTW!
It's time for some clarification. These are quotes are from NIMF, not IGN, Scrubking decided to remove quotation marks and what IGN wrote to make a point. Here's the entire article:

Media watchdog the National Institute on Media and the Family (NIMF) has issued a statement in response to the news that Take-Two has suspended the release of the ultra-violent Manhunt 2 (http://wii.ign.com/objects/883/883115.html). It's been a stormy week for the sequel to 2003's Manhunt, with the title being banned in the UK and receiving an "AO" rating from the Entertainment Software Ratings Board (ESRB). An AO rating basically means a game cannot be sold or manufactured in its current form. NIMF appears to be quite happy with the news.

"Take-Two's decision to temporarily suspend distribution of Manhunt 2 is a victory for parents and children," the statement reads. "Because of the their thoughtful decision to give Manhunt 2 its strongest rating, 'Adults Only,' the ESRB has sent a strong message to Take-Two and other game makers that they no longer can push the envelope on gratuitous violence in videogames. The ESRB showed real leadership in assigning this rating and further evidence it is making significant progress in keeping extremely violent and graphic materials out of children's hands."

NIMF is apparently keeping a close eye on other upcoming games that could prove controversial.

"Hopefully Take-Two has learned from its Manhunt 2 experience and will undertake preventive measures to ensure its future games, including Grand Theft Auto IV, are appropriate for families and gamers."

Even though it is the organization's mission to inform consumers as to the content in videogames, NIMF seems a little misinformed as it refers to Manhunt 2 as a "first-player shooter." The title is a third-person action game.

"As gaming technology continues to change, we hope to continue to work with the ESRB to ensure that future games have appropriate content and context for children. The uniqueness of Nintendo's Wii gives game raters a new challenge when it comes to first-player shooter games. We take the ESRB's decision about Manhunt 2 as a positive step in addressing this new challenge."

NIMF confirmed to IGN that the organization has not played the game, and it is basing its decision that the title is unfit for release on the same trailers we have all seen (which don't show any gameplay that is more violent than numerous past games). What is particularly alarming to the Institute is the Wii control which allows players to act out the gruesome killings with the Wiimote.

They don't know anything more about why it got an AO than we do, as they're assuming things, as well.

Why they want Rockstar to make GTAIV and Manhunt 2 more appropriate for families is the real the question here.

mr ryles

06-22-2007, 10:48 PM

Come on gang! Lets gather around the television and play some Grant Theft Auto! It will be great family fun! Honey, did you invite the neighbor kids over?

Dark Slayer120

06-22-2007, 10:51 PM

It's time for some clarification. These are quotes are from NIMF, not IGN, Scrubking decided to remove quotation marks and what IGN wrote to make a point. Here's the entire article:

They don't know anything more about why it got an AO than we do, as they're assuming things, as well.

Why they want Rockstar to make GTAIV and Manhunt 2 more appropriate for families is the real the question here.

The ESRB sure is feeling the power now. :roll: Next will be GTA4 getting the AO rating if they don't like what they see. Ha ha maybe to help tone that down, they will go the Driver route and make it so you can't run over civilians. :lol:

FriskyTanuki

06-22-2007, 11:07 PM

Ha ha maybe to help tone that down, they will go the Driver route and make it so you can't run over civilians. :lol:
:bomb: I hated that. I'd try to run over the deserving pedestrians, only to feel foolish as they disappeared into buildings. I want my 200 pts. for running over people. :lol:

botticus

06-22-2007, 11:20 PM

It's time for some clarification. These are quotes are from NIMF, not IGN, Scrubking decided to remove quotation marks and what IGN wrote to make a point. Here's the entire article:

They don't know anything more about why it got an AO than we do, as they're assuming things, as well.

Why they want Rockstar to make GTAIV and Manhunt 2 more appropriate for families is the real the question here.Well, it's the NIMF, they want everything to be appropriate for kids. They might as well go talk to James Dobson for all the insight he'll provide.

schuerm26

06-23-2007, 09:14 AM

A victory for parents and kids? Is this guy kidding. This is beyond the point of absurd and yet another example of personal responsibility being tossed out the window. It is actually somewhat scary that this is accepted.

I can't even begin to say how wrong those comments are from NIMF.

I fully support a group like this but my god they are going about it the wrong way. Why do they not have reports for parents and families about what games are acceptable and what aren't? Make a streamlined process for parents so they know what is in games and what isn't?

They hope that Take-Two makes their games appropriate for families and gamers? That's like saying The Godfather should be banned because it isn't appropriate for the whole family to sit down and watch. While I agree with groups like this as a way to inform parents, this is just completely absurd the way they are going about it.

mykevermin

06-23-2007, 11:19 AM

I can't even begin to say how wrong those comments are from NIMF.

Looking at their website, they present themselves as very academic, very thorough, positivists. They deal with the real world of research an empiricism.

However, two things come to mind:

1) The obvious fact that, having not *played* Manhunt 2, nor being provided any insight/literature/descriptors/previews of the game above and beyond what any of us have access to (the web and game magazines), they have already decided the game's inappropriateness. They laud it receiving a rating of "AO," yet they have nothing to verify it with. In other words, all their ethical-sounding and allegedly unbiased claims to want to advance societal understanding have been immediately cast out the window. One can not simultaneously hold positions that advocate for greater research in the field (and appreciation for that research) and positions that heap praise on something that they can not empirically verify. One is a claim for unbiased academic pursuits of knowledge (let the real world tell us how it works and what it's about), and one is a claim for a preferred political result.

2) This: http://www.mediafamily.org/research/index.shtml has several noteworthy things that should make all of you immediately suspect. First, they publish their own research, which means it is not peer-reviewed (it's not held up to scrutiny by other academic experts in the field, and its academic/theoretical/methodological worthiness put to the test). It's fake "expertiness." I could start a website like this (I'll call it the "Institute for Policy Analysis Game Foundation Group"), make a logo, and take my own work and convert it to PDF. Still doesn't make me an expert on the research. It's a disguise for the fact that the people running the NIMF are putting on the appearance of academia, but they don't exist in the academic world.

Second, they're putting out conference papers as "research." I've been to many conferences, and outside of one (the annual American Sociological Association meetings), most of them have this policy before granting presentation: "Got a paper? Ok, you're in." Presenting a paper at a conference, and treating it as if it were some indicator of greatness, is crap. I've torn papers to shreds at conferences, and I've presented papers I knew were half-assed or unfinished at conferences (and summarily had my own work torn to shreds - it's a quid-pro-quo thing). Paper presentation is not something that means "good research."

Third, the findings of every article shows how horrible media is for children. When you have consistent and strong effects shown in every bit of research, you're either researching something redundant ("Do people breathe air?"), or you're mining for the desired result. In the real academic world, media effects are *VERY* rarely strong, and most often effects are either not found, or weak at best (meaning that video games may assist in the breakdown of the family, but it was something that was bound to happen whether or not games were there). If you have a hankering for real research on videogames, search out a psychologist named Craig A Anderson. I'm not the biggest fan of his research methods (and, as a result, if I ever get around to it, I have a perfect paper to write - I may even present it at a conference :)), but Anderson is bound to the empirical world. He's not biased towards finding any particular result, and I respect him for that.

What really gets my shit is that people act as if the NIMF matters, and is a force to reckon with. They're garbage researchers passing off unscrutinized research as damning evidence of media's effects on children, and they are clearly biased towards a particular finding (which, of course, makes me want to discover who the philanthropists are who fund this organization - this ain't a labor of love, kiddos - I bet ol' Dr. Walsh bought a bad-ass cigarette boat through this group). Yet they get media attention. That makes me want to slap someone more than Manhunt 2 ever could.

yukine

06-23-2007, 11:44 AM

The thing that annoys me is not so much that Manhunt 2 is being labeled an "AO" game, but that I can't purchase and play an "Adult Only" game. If I want play a game where I can go kill dudes, and spray virtual jizz on pixelated titties then I should be able to do that. I understand that they want to keep these games away from the kiddies in fear that they are going to go sex crazed and retard strong, but video games are not just for kids anymore.

PyroGamer

06-23-2007, 12:52 PM

video games are not just for kids anymore.
Exactly! Games are for adults too!

http://www.joystiq.com/media/2006/06/jonstewartrockscongresscqh.jpg

Scrubking

06-23-2007, 01:27 PM

You should be aware that HOSTEL 2 does not contain "actual violence" but a
series of highly choreographed scenes involving actors, clever editing and
expensive special effects. Our classification of the film would be quite
different if it did.
http://www.thewrestlingchannel.tv/forum/showpost.php?p=918209&postcount=66

I wonder if the ESRB thinks the same.

PyroGamer

06-23-2007, 02:01 PM

http://www.thewrestlingchannel.tv/forum/showpost.php?p=918209&postcount=66

I wonder if the ESRB thinks the same.
:lol: Holy. Fucking. Shit.

This HAS to be a joke. OMG. Srsly, I think I'm going to die of laughter.

"You can't compare videogame violence to movie violence. People in movies don't REALLY die when they get shot."

schuerm26

06-23-2007, 02:45 PM

Until more info shows up about that, it has to be taken as a joke. That is just a bit to far into the real of stupidity to be believable.

PyroGamer

06-23-2007, 03:19 PM

*snip*
Though I appreciate it, it amazes me that you actually took the time to write that. It's like writing a book refuting UFOs.

Anyone with the cognitive ability of a freshly microwaved hamster knows the NIMF is the biggest crock of shit on the interwebs.

mykevermin

06-23-2007, 03:28 PM

Though I appreciate it, it amazes me that you actually took the time to write that. It's like writing a book refuting UFOs.

Anyone with the cognitive ability of a freshly microwaved hamster knows the NIMF is the biggest crock of shit on the interwebs.

Well, sure. Nevertheless, the very fact that they have such media credentials shows that not everyone is skeptical of them, and that, by virtue of airtime, they have both perceived legitimacy, and real power. Like Jack Thomson, except they seem to disguise their agenda (if only slightly more).

I find it better to point out what's actually wrong than to simply say "they're a crock." If you can have conversations with people on that level, then their power dissolves (IMO) far more than if you say "they're a crock." Now, sure, not many people are reading this thread...and I don't have a response to that. :lol:

yukine

06-24-2007, 01:15 AM

Exactly! Games are for adults too!

http://www.joystiq.com/media/2006/06/jonstewartrockscongresscqh.jpg

Precisely.

happy

06-25-2007, 11:59 AM

The NYTimes has an article on this today: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/25/arts/25manh.html?n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fP eople%2fS%2fSchiesel%2c%20Seth

(hopefully that will work)

The important part is:
But given the structure of Manhunt 2 it should be fairly simple for Take-Two and the boards to reach an accommodation and release a redacted version rated M for Mature in time for the December holiday season. Whenever it does ship, Manhunt 2 is likely to enjoy a level of public awareness (and potentially sales) that it could never have attained without the ban. That of course may well have been what its makers intended all along.

It seems from his description that it would be easy to take out the most violent stuff and get an M in time for the holidays after lots of free publicity. I'm willing to buy the argument that this was planned from the start.

camoor

06-25-2007, 01:06 PM

Exactly! Games are for adults too!

http://www.joystiq.com/media/2006/06/jonstewartrockscongresscqh.jpg

:lol:

That was great - "I, myself, am a child in man's body" :rofl:

mr ryles

06-25-2007, 03:39 PM

Apossum

06-25-2007, 03:48 PM

it's really weird that stores and the big 3 have basically banned on AO games, when they know their sales mostly come from 18-32 year old males (or whatever the bracket is.)

-Never4ever-

06-25-2007, 06:35 PM

it's really weird that stores and the big 3 have basically banned on AO games, when they know their sales mostly come from 18-32 year old males (or whatever the bracket is.)

Because conservative USA would systematically wipe them from the face of the earth.

mr ryles

06-25-2007, 06:41 PM

Because conservative USA would systematically wipe them from the face of teh earth.

I keep wanting to compare this to DVDs and I'm not sure if it is a fair comparison or not. It just upsets me that you can walk into a DVD store and purchase a G rated movie intended for kids 8 and under and at the same time purchase unrated hardcore porn. Yet when it comes to video game stores anything intended towards an Adult Audience isn't even allowed. I just don't see where the difference is in the two.

furyk

06-25-2007, 06:57 PM

I keep wanting to compare this to DVDs and I'm not sure if it is a fair comparison or not. It just upsets me that you can walk into a DVD store and purchase a G rated movie intended for kids 8 and under and at the same time purchase unrated hardcore porn. Yet when it comes to video game stores anything intended towards an Adult Audience isn't even allowed. I just don't see where the difference is in the two.

The true hypocrisy comes in the DVD market with "unrated" DVDs. Wal Mart won't carry an AO game but they will carry a movie that came out in theaters that then had content edited back in that would push the film to an NC-17 rating (like Hostel or Saw 2) that went around the ratings board. As it stands, it's a complete double standard that really should be addressed.

mykevermin

06-25-2007, 07:03 PM

The true hypocrisy comes in the DVD market with "unrated" DVDs. Wal Mart won't carry an AO game but they will carry a movie that came out in theaters that then had content edited back in that would push the film to an NC-17 rating (like Hostel or Saw 2) that went around the ratings board. As it stands, it's a complete double standard that really should be addressed.

To be fair, all of their music is sanitized for your protection too. However, their book section is teeming with throbbing cocks in the Victorian era er, "Harlequin" romances. ;)

Reality's Fringe

06-25-2007, 07:05 PM

To be fair, all of their music is sanitized for your protection too. However, their book section is teeming with throbbing cocks in the Victorian era er, "Harlequin" romances. ;)

If you buy music from Wal-Mart, you deserve to be smacked (Johnny Go's and Used Kids in Columbus FTW).

natch.

MarioColbert

06-25-2007, 07:10 PM

Throbbing cocks? I think I must drop by Wal Mart on the way home.

mr ryles

06-25-2007, 07:12 PM

I just don't see how the industry can justify selling one (being Adult only unrated DVDs) and not the other. (being AO games)

Zen Davis

06-25-2007, 09:01 PM

pvance@esrb.org

Contact her and let her know how you feel. The president of the ESRB. I personally am boycotting any new games and only buying used games until they get off this power trip.

mr ryles

06-25-2007, 09:14 PM

pvance@esrb.org

Contact her and let her know how you feel. The president of the ESRB. I personally am boycotting any new games and only buying used games until they get off this power trip.

To me it's not really an issue with the ESRB. It's the fact that store retailers and the console producers (Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony) don't allow AO games. The AO rating should be in place, but it is total BS that Take two isn't allowed to release it because of the rating.

Apossum

06-25-2007, 09:22 PM

Because conservative USA would systematically wipe them from the face of the earth.

they'd get used to it after making a big stink. Wal-mart isn't going anywhere.
seems like anyone can get away with anything restrictive under this current admin though....

FriskyTanuki

06-25-2007, 10:40 PM

Thats really all that is ticking me off now is the fact that all these groups are assuming that video games are only played by kids 6-12 years old. Adults play video games now too, mainly because they are the kids that where playing the games 10 years ago and now they are still playing today. With More adults playing video games today I think the ESRP should be taking that into consideration. As should the video game consoles in allowing AO games to be released for their system.
I guess you missed my reply to your last post about this, but the reason Nintendo and Sony aren't allowing AO games is because they don't want to get sued over the same kind of stupid crap that the GTA series got them into, which was only an M rating. I don't think they did it to spite the adults that buy their systems.

daroga

06-25-2007, 10:54 PM

I guess you missed my reply to your last post about this, but the reason Nintendo and Sony aren't allowing AO games is because they don't want to get sued over the same kind of stupid crap that the GTA series got them into, which was only an M rating. I don't think they did it to spite the adults that buy their systems.On the internet, anyone who does anything you disagree with is out to get you.

furyk

06-25-2007, 11:21 PM

pvance@esrb.org

Contact her and let her know how you feel. The president of the ESRB. I personally am boycotting any new games and only buying used games until they get off this power trip.

That makes a lot of sense seeing as its the system creators, not the developers/publishers that benefit the most from new game sales..... *eyeroll*

Can't anything happen on the internet without someone declaring a boycott?

FriskyTanuki

06-26-2007, 12:26 AM

On the internet, anyone who does anything you disagree with is out to get you.
Damn straight. If anyone's out to get you, it's them intarweb folks.

yukine

06-26-2007, 01:48 AM

Exactly, mr ryles. I don't quite understand why I can buy an incredibly violent/near pornographic DVD one aisle over, but I can't buy a video game with the same content? In video games, it's not even a real human to which the violence is being acted upon unlike movies. I just think people are still stuck in the mentality that only 13 year old kids play video games.

Genocidal

06-26-2007, 01:51 AM

A question then: Would the two of you be happier if there was a consistent decision and the unrated versions of movies were banned as well?

mr ryles

06-26-2007, 01:58 AM

A question then: Would the two of you be happier if there was a consistent decision and the unrated versions of movies were banned as well?

No, both should be available. But I think a general consensus need to be put into place. If the Game is designed for 21+ year old person then only sell it to the person of that age same thing goes for the movies. Make it a law, make it a crime for the store to sell the product to anyone under the given age of the title. It's bullshit that they are trying to push for games to be all happy and kiddy and that if a 12 year old kid can't play it then no one can play it.

yukine

06-27-2007, 08:26 PM

No, both should be available. But I think a general consensus need to be put into place. If the Game is designed for 21+ year old person then only sell it to the person of that age same thing goes for the movies. Make it a law, make it a crime for the store to sell the product to anyone under the given age of the title. It's bullshit that they are trying to push for games to be all happy and kiddy and that if a 12 year old kid can't play it then no one can play it.
Yes, both should be available but it shouldn't be illegal to sell to minors. A violent video game shouldn't be like selling cigarettes or alcohol.

Last time I checked, it's not illegal to sell an R rated or even a Unrated movie to a minor, unless said material is purely pornographic. Video games should be the same. Right now the ESRB, retailers, and the big three publishers treat M rated games like a PG-13 movie... which can contain cursing to some extent, a little nudity, as well as violence.

IAmTheCheapestGamer

06-27-2007, 11:53 PM

See, I'm totally against the ESRB or retailers relaxing their controls on M rated titles to include easier sales to minors. What's the first thing morons always blame(once it's found they played them)when one of the school shootings happened?

Oh.....video games were to blame for their stupid behavior. I don't know about you, but I'd prefer if ALL retailers were like Wal*Mart when ringing up M rated games and required ID if the person looks under the stated age limit.

While many kids won't go out and take out an entire school of people because they saw it in a video game, there are the shmucks(like these kids I remember reading about from Tennessee who shot at cars on a nearby highway after seeing it in GTA)who will go apeshit and then either they will blame it on video games or the morons investigating it will do so.

The standard 18-34 age range that many see as the main demographic for gamers in this country is pretty close to the absolute truth, with maybe 1-5% of the rest making up Johnny Jackoff and his know it all soccer mom mom who will get the lil turd anything he wants to just shut him up. My point? I'm old enough to go out and buy these games if I want to, while lil Johnny has to have mommy do it unless he gets a stupid clerk who just wants to make their numbers look better.

It's those fuckin idiots we need to have the ESRB go out and find and STAPLE a fuckin copy of the ratings system to their foreheads and/or explain it SLOWLY so the self important cell phone toting soccer moms can fuckin understand and stop buying Resident Evil for lil Johnny because 'he wanted it'.

Either that or when said M rated game is bought for a minor or by a minor, a release should be signed stating that the morons will not blame the games for their behavior if they go off and kill someone to mimic the game. Otherwise, if they do blame the companies, THEY can be SUED by the companies because they went against the ratings and a minor had it.

I know it's unenforcable on SO MANY levels, but imagine the deterrent if Susie SoccerMom sees that she can be held legally responsible for little dipshits actions and her own by buying him that 'harmless game he wants'.

FriskyTanuki

07-02-2007, 07:30 AM

Here's the new screens (http://www.geekrising.com/)of the cleaned-up version of Manhunt 2:

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/180/617199854efaf2fb516tg0.th.jpg (http://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=617199854efaf2fb516tg0.jpg) http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/9397/617199558f3c33d3efbwu4.th.jpg (http://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=617199558f3c33d3efbwu4.jpg) http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/6932/61719954601ca2b2b88uw4.th.jpg (http://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=61719954601ca2b2b88uw4.jpg)
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/5918/616483483cca07b981bgd7.th.jpg (http://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=616483483cca07b981bgd7.jpg) http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/7558/617199574dca6ff5bb9fv8.th.jpg (http://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=617199574dca6ff5bb9fv8.jpg)

:D

mtxbass1

07-02-2007, 07:37 AM

rofl at the puppy picture.

PyroGamer

07-02-2007, 11:14 AM

Here's the new screens (http://www.geekrising.com/)of the cleaned-up version of Manhunt 2:
*snip*
:D
I would SO buy that.

Scrubking

07-02-2007, 06:18 PM

Gamers for Gaming interviews Mike Jaret who calls all the censoring "bullshit" among other things.

LINK (http://www.destructoid.com/audio-interview-mike-jaret-from-running-with-scissors-talks-to-gfg-34200.phtml)

yukine

07-02-2007, 08:09 PM

Haha, that reminds me of the "PG version" of 300: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNqiSkd1M6k

tenaciousjack

07-17-2007, 11:23 AM

Bump.
Any news or is it being shelved indefinitely?

Scrubking

07-17-2007, 11:47 AM

Bump.
Any news or is it being shelved indefinitely?

T2 is evaluating its options. Stay tuned.

PyroGamer

07-17-2007, 12:12 PM

WHO THE FUCK BUMPED THIS!!!??

Someone has to die. This thread was not meant to be resurrected EVER again.

P.S.: Don't expect any news on this until GTA:IV releases. I think Take Two wants to stay out of hot water until they can get that out and at least get a chance of making back the money they lost on Manhunt 2.

CoffeeEdge

07-17-2007, 01:23 PM

WHO THE FUCK BUMPED THIS!!!??
Tenactiousjack, obviously.

munch

07-17-2007, 01:30 PM

Haha, that reminds me of the "PG version" of 300: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNqiSkd1M6k

I forgot all about that. BRUSH YOUR TEETH! :rofl:

monkeydeew

07-17-2007, 02:05 PM

should i cancel my preorder

Scrubking

07-17-2007, 02:31 PM

Might as well post this now.

We are responding to the article Sick Filth?, in which you expressed support for the ban of Manhunt 2.

Although censorship makes you "deeply uncomfortable" and you found the ban’s rationale "a less comfortable topic", you agreed with the judgment of the British Board of Film Classification that no one - regardless of age or personal opinion - should be allowed to consider playing Manhunt 2.

We are still exploring our options for Manhunt 2, but how does banning our game support the industry or further the development of the medium? Unlike a heavy-handed editor or a critical review of a game, a ban is punishment for deviating from tradition.

A ban denies everyone the chance to consider, experience, or discuss the actual game. The only obvious victor is the status quo.

You seem to view banning Manhunt 2 as a way to protect the industry from scrutiny and unfair attacks. In fact, a ban is a triumph for the industry’s harshest critics, not an act of diplomacy.

A ban is only likely to encourage those who believe video games, already the most regulated medium in entertainment history, should be further restricted.

What about games make them deserve special treatment from the authorities? According to industry groups, the average games player is in his or her 30s, yet you support the widely held view that games are somehow a less sophisticated medium than cinema, only suitable for immature audiences.

In other words, although gamers can negotiate the boundaries between reality and fiction in other media, you believe we are incapable of navigating the same boundaries in videogames.

Yes, we have responsibilities as an industry, but as a creative industry, not as a pharmaceutical or weapons industry. Creative industries have always faced harsh political and legal criticism, and we know some of the movie industry’s more reactionary responses to scrutiny actually backfired.

We believe in a well-run ratings system. With the best rating system in history and the future of the industry and medium at stake, we don’t understand why it is necessary to effectively ban all games intended for players 18 and older.

Sincerely,

Rockstar Games
LINK (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=26784)

mr ryles

07-17-2007, 02:40 PM

Might as well post this now.

LINK (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=26784)

I agree with 100% of that.

LanceJr

07-17-2007, 02:48 PM

should i cancel my preorder

The game will come out edited, so no why would you?

But do what you want...if missing that $5 is going to break ya whatever

IAmTheCheapestGamer

07-17-2007, 03:26 PM

I still predict Rockstar games either distributing this game in its current form themselves via the web(which would be the best option for them, if they wanted it to stay true to what it is right NOW)or they take the weaker route(like they did with the AO San Andreas and re-release it with the 'offensive' material taken out.

Honestly, just like the case with Tiger Woods 99 for PS1, which had the Jesus vs Santa South Park holiday episode on the original copies, I'm sure that the AO content in SA was only found by some kid whose parent couldn't be bothered to keep up on what they're playing or what they have in the way of game systems. The kid got bored, messed around with all sorts of cheat codes and voila, found the content which would've otherwise remained buried on the disc.

In many cases, games are made for the typical 18-34 age range that is somewhat widely accepted(except by critics of 'disgusting' game content)as the norm for gamers nowadays, yet the people who object to many things found in more recent games always state that 'children will be hurt by this or that'.

It's stupid parents which are to blame for the ratings system even BEING in place nowadays. But hell, back when it was formed, people were offended by the original Mortal Kombat and its then graphic depiction of violence.

Nowadays, even I admit to being a bit nauseated by some of what people call entertainment, but I still won't sit here and scream that it 'should be censored' because it'll hurt the children, when it's clear from the ratings that same media is given that it's never been INTENDED for children.

mykevermin

07-17-2007, 03:50 PM

I still predict Rockstar games either distributing this game in its current form themselves via the web(which would be the best option for them, if they wanted it to stay true to what it is right NOW)

I don't know that they could distribute the game like that for PS2, PSP, or Wii in that form; both because of the legality of creating unlicensed software for those consoles (if that is indeed the case), or also the strained console maker/publisher relations ("if you put out Manhunt 2, don't expect to put anything on our system again"). They could pull a Tengen, but it's probably not in their best financial interests. Of course, owning the GTA IP gives them some leverage (but not enough, apparently).

IAmTheCheapestGamer

07-17-2007, 04:08 PM

True, though as you said, there have been cases before with game publishers putting out unlicensed games. And honestly, who else is getting a little sick of Rockstar putting out the same 2-3 games in the GTA franchise.

Back on the original, it had all three cities, we later had the PS2/Xbox incarnations and will now have PS3/360 incarnations but with improved graphics and a different story.

I mean, don't get me wrong, but it seems like there's alot of devs/pubs who put out retreads of the same old series year in and year out.

Capcom-Street Fighter
Midway-Mortal Kombat
Rockstar-GTA series

And so on....

It gets truly redundant, even if it is a new story and all because it's the same shit we played maybe 4-5 years ago, but with a prettier picture.

CoffeeEdge

07-17-2007, 04:27 PM

True, though as you said, there have been cases before with game publishers putting out unlicensed games.
We're on page 24 of this thread, and there are still idiots who think that it's possible for them to release an AO-rated version? I can't believe I'm having to explain this again.

If they wanted to publish an unlicensed game, they would have to make it without using any official devkits or development documents or anything of that nature. That may have been possibly in the NES days, but these days, with the complexity of today's game consoles, it is literally almost impossible.

There will never, ever, ever be an AO-rated version of Manhunt 2 on a console. Fucking deal with it.

It's stupid parents which are to blame for the ratings system even BEING in place nowadays.
Uh...no? The ratings system was established out of common sense, and the need to let parents know something about the content of the games they were buying, which were relatively skyrocketing in the early and mid '90s.

Honestly, just like the case with Tiger Woods 99 for PS1, which had the Jesus vs Santa South Park holiday episode on the original copies, I'm sure that the AO content in SA was only found by some kid whose parent couldn't be bothered to keep up on what they're playing or what they have in the way of game systems. The kid got bored, messed around with all sorts of cheat codes and voila, found the content which would've otherwise remained buried on the disc.
Uh, no. A 37-year-old Dutchman named Patrick Wildenborg found it.

mykevermin

07-17-2007, 04:37 PM

We're on page 24 of this thread, and there are still idiots who think that it's possible for them to release an AO-rated version? I can't believe I'm having to explain this again.

If they wanted to publish an unlicensed game, they would have to make it without using any official devkits or development documents or anything of that nature. That may have been possibly in the NES days, but these days, with the complexity of today's game consoles, it is literally almost impossible.

There will never, ever, ever be an AO-rated version of Manhunt 2 on a console. Fucking deal with it.

Whoa there, Cranky McCrankerson! First, take a deep breath. Second, slowly exhale. Play some Enigma or something soothing and ambient, and repeat after me:

"Some people disagree with me. That's ok."

Do it until it sinks in.

Now, as far as technology is concerned, I have a HDD Loader disc that, much like the *unlicensed* Action Replays, used a backwards-engineered "Crazy Taxi" code to allow themselves to be bootable on the PS2. It's not only possible these days, but, given homebrew for various consoles, more prevalent in this day and age than it was in the past.

Uh...no? The ratings system was established out of common sense, and the need to let parents know something about the content of the games they were buying, which were relatively skyrocketing in the early and mid '90s.

I believe that "common sense" has to originate somewhere. Good intentions don't arise on their own.

CoffeeEdge

07-17-2007, 04:50 PM

"Some people disagree with me. That's ok."
This has nothing to do with agreement and disagreement over opinion. This is about technical facts, and people's ignorance and lack of understanding of those facts (including yours, Prof).

Now, as far as technology is concerned, I have a HDD Loader disc that, much like the *unlicensed* Action Replays, used a backwards-engineered "Crazy Taxi" code to allow themselves to be bootable on the PS2. It's not only possible these days, but, given homebrew for various consoles, more prevalent in this day and age than it was in the past.
Yes indeed, PS2 homebrew is possible. But you clearly don't have a very solid understanding of it.

PS2 homebrew is made one of two ways: Either using illegal, stolen official development software, allowing a skilled enough homebrewer or homebrew team to do just about anything that an actual game developer could do with the hardware, or by using 100% homemade, and for the most part, legal development libraries. So, indeed, it is possible to make legal homebrew PS2 software using the homebrew development tools. But what makes it impossible for a game like manhunt 2 to be developed and distributed using these tools, is that they simply aren't advanced and comprehensive enough to be used to develop a "high-production, commercial-quality" game like that. Regardless of the skill of the coders, there simply isn't a way to develop a game like Manhunt 2 using the free, homebrew development tools. They aren't efficient enough, and don't anywhere near full advantage of the PS2's abilities. Certainly, nowhere close enough to make something like Manhunt.

So, again, it's 100%, completely fucking impossible.

I believe that "common sense" has to originate somewhere. Good intentions don't arise on their own.
Ah, you're right, I forgot. The ESRB is actually all a part of the propagation of the opressive white male power structure.

IAmTheCheapestGamer

07-17-2007, 04:52 PM

But see, people like to be told what to do, what is good or bad for them, since then it lowers their level of responsibility and they don't have to think for themselves. After all, if something bad comes out and someone finds out about it, they can just say 'I'm sickened by this, it must be banned', since after all, the rest of society(which is pretty depraced imo nowadays anyway)couldn't possibly disagree with me, right?

And CoffeeEdge, who really is going to sit there and input ALL the codes needed to unlock the AO content of the original SA. I mean, I've seen the laundry list of codes required and if I want to see it, I'll just hop onto YouTube to see it. But, the Tiger Woods one was a kid who found it, by opening various files on the PS1 disc using programs on their computer already.

Thing is, their family bought them the PS1 version, instead of the version for PC(which was all they had to play games). And, as they say, curiousity killed the cat. But, in this case, it found a South Park video.

CoffeeEdge

07-17-2007, 04:56 PM

But see, people like to be told what to do, what is good or bad for them, since then it lowers their level of responsibility and they don't have to think for themselves. After all, if something bad comes out and someone finds out about it, they can just say 'I'm sickened by this, it must be banned', since after all, the rest of society(which is pretty depraced imo nowadays anyway)couldn't possibly disagree with me, right?
Uh, what the fuck are you talking about?

And CoffeeEdge, who really is going to sit there and input ALL the codes needed to unlock the AO content of the original SA. I mean, I've seen the laundry list of codes required and if I want to see it, I'll just hop onto YouTube to see it. But, the Tiger Woods one was a kid who found it, by opening various files on the PS1 disc using programs on their computer already.
Uh, thousands and thousands of people, obviously. And if you have the PC version of SA, all you need is Patrick Wildenborg's mod, which allows you to access the minigame without putting in any codes at all.

mykevermin

07-17-2007, 04:56 PM

This has nothing to do with agreement and disagreement over opinion. This is about technical facts, and people's ignorance and lack of understanding of those facts (including yours, Prof).

Yes indeed, PS2 homebrew is possible. But you clearly don't have a very solid understanding of it.

PS2 homebrew is made one of two ways: Either using illegal, stolen official development software, allowing a skilled enough homebrewer or homebrew team to do just about anything that an actual game developer could do with the hardware, or by using 100% homemade, and for the most part, legal development libraries. So, indeed, it is possible to make legal homebrew PS2 software using the homebrew development tools. But what makes it impossible for a game like manhunt 2 to be developed and distributed using these tools, is that they simply aren't advanced and comprehensive enough to be used to develop a "high-production, commercial-quality" game like that. Regardless of the skill of the coders, there simply isn't a way to develop a game like Manhunt 2 using the free, homebrew development tools. They aren't efficient enough, and don't anywhere near full advantage of the PS2's abilities. Certainly, nowhere close enough to make something like Manhunt.

So, again, it's 100%, completely fucking impossible.

http://www.gamestop.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=801843

Why is that product on the shelves, then? Is it as complex as Manhunt 2? No? That's fine - it is still engineered using the first technique you mentioned. Look, I'm sure you're very confident of how right you are, but the insistence you have of your rightness is contradicted by what exists on store shelves.

Ah, you're right, I forgot. The ESRB is actually all a part of the propagation of the opressive white male power structure, and make tons of money doing it.

I'm not sure who you had to blow in the office today, but you need to give up your whiny bitch attitude. All I'm saying is that "common sense" does not exist outside the people who consider it common sense, and those are both the "stupid parents" the other person mentioned, the console/game industry itself, and certain vested interests. People possess attitudes that lead to change. The attitudes that don't exist by themselves. If you want to say "common sense" made the change, fine. But it's absolutely *absurd* to say that as a way of implying that your argument somehow invalidates that people actually perpetuated the change.

But see, people like to be told what to do, what is good or bad for them, since then it lowers their level of responsibility and they don't have to think for themselves. After all, if something bad comes out and someone finds out about it, they can just say 'I'm sickened by this, it must be banned', since after all, the rest of society(which is pretty depraced imo nowadays anyway)couldn't possibly disagree with me, right?

You can't prove that, by the way.

CoffeeEdge

07-17-2007, 05:00 PM

http://www.gamestop.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=801843

Why is that product on the shelves, then? Is it as complex as Manhunt 2? No? That's fine - it is still engineered using the first technique you mentioned. Look, I'm sure you're very confident of how right you are, but the insistence you have of your rightness is contradicted by what exists on store shelves.
Hahahahaha, dude. How does the existance of a cheat device, which makes no use whatsoever of, say, complex 3D libraries assorted other high-level code needed to run a game like Manhunt 2, prove that it's possible to develop a game like that using homebrew tools?

And also, you're telling me that the AR Max was developed using stolen devkits? Link, please. Sony would have sued them into the ground.

You're completely and utterly wrong.

I'm not sure who you had to blow in the office today, but you need to give up your whiny bitch attitude. All I'm saying is that "common sense" does not exist outside the people who consider it common sense, and those are both the "stupid parents" the other person mentioned, the console/game industry itself, and certain vested interests. People possess attitudes that lead to change. The attitudes that don't exist by themselves. If you want to say "common sense" made the change, fine. But it's absolutely *absurd* to say that as a way of implying that your argument somehow invalidates that people actually perpetuated the change.
Look, I'm just tired of the people bitching about how evil the ESRB is. Simple as that.

mykevermin

07-17-2007, 05:11 PM

Look, I'm just tired of the people bitching about how evil the ESRB is. Simple as that.

There are some solid criticisms that Take 2 and Manhunt were made examples of as a means of "proving the legitimacy" of the ESRB. I wouldn't say "evil," but certainly "complicit" or possibly "cowardly" as well.

If you're tired of the bitching, go make yourself a snack or play some disc golf. I get the feeling it's not going to go away from this thread.

mr ryles

07-17-2007, 05:16 PM

There are some solid criticisms that Take 2 and Manhunt were made examples of as a means of "proving the legitimacy" of the ESRB. I wouldn't say "evil," but certainly "complicit" or possibly "cowardly" as well.

If you're tired of the bitching, go make yourself a snack or play some disc golf. I get the feeling it's not going to go away from this thread.

When you say disk golf are you referring to frisbee golf?

mykevermin

07-17-2007, 05:21 PM

Yes. A regional dialect to call it "disc golf," perhaps?

Speaking of regional, and going way off topic, at the bar last night they had an arcade machine of local hillbilly bean bag game (I kid you not), "Cornhole." I'm fucking amazed and sickened.

IAmTheCheapestGamer

07-17-2007, 07:22 PM

What still gets me is that a small but vocal minority want anything THEY deem offensive banned or censored beyond recognition, even if they are not the intended audience.

Honestly, I still say R* should say 'f ya' to the ESRB and the console makers and just distribute it themselves, but I understand that it was made with the dev kits provided by those same companies, so that would definitely be a 'grey' area.

Or they could just do a Thrill Kill and have it dist'd free over the net via torrent sites and just wash their hands of the whole idea of having to censor their product to suit some snooty panels sensibilities.

I just get a kick out of all of the things that have been released in all forms of media, some of which still sicken many people(the Faces Of Death video series, for example), yet there are other items(such as this game) which are deemed 'inappropriate'.

It never ceases to amaze me, since I often find the local and national news to be offensive with their showing of footage from the war, yet those are still shown because they're 'newsworthy'?

Double standard, I tell ya.

Oh and Coffee Edge, I didn't even have to enter codes or put any type of mod file on my PC, since I just went to YouTube and watched someones video of the Hot Coffee mod.

yukine

07-18-2007, 01:11 AM

There are some solid criticisms that Take 2 and Manhunt were made examples of as a means of "proving the legitimacy" of the ESRB. I wouldn't say "evil," but certainly "complicit" or possibly "cowardly" as well.

I believe that, I think one of the major factors in Manhunt 2 being banned is because it has Rockstar/Take-Two on the cover, hell read/watch the previews for Condemned 2 and it's very similar to what we know about Manhunt.

But hey, it's just some developer, they are expendable. Especially when it makes your own ratings systems seem more effective to guys like Jack Thompson:

Responsible people within the industry, even Doug Lowenstein, have been saying for quite sometime that Take-Two had become a problem for the entire industry because it was painting a bullseye on the back of the whole industry and making it more difficult for the industry to get US politicians off its back.

Now the ESRB does something that indicates is might be trustworthy, and you nitwits go bonkers because of that development.

Grow up and smell the hot coffee. This is the best thing that could have happened to the industry. The isolation and ostracism of Take-Two by the industry was long overdue.

Now that it has come, rejoice.

Jack Thompson (http://kotaku.com/gaming/jack-thompson/), Attorney, and you're not.
Lets just forget about actually trying to make improvements to the rating systems, and thus make them more effective. It's just easier to bully some company, and making yourself look good, rather than trying to fix the faults that currently exist.

botticus

08-24-2007, 09:41 AM

Thanks to MisterHand for the heads-up in the Wii thread:

http://ir.take2games.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=261582

New York, NY - August 24, 2007 - Rockstar Games today announced it will release Manhunt 2 for the PlayStation®2 computer entertainment system, PSP® (PlayStation®Portable) system, and the Wii™ home video game system from Nintendo in North America on October 31, 2007. This announcement follows the submission of a modified version of Manhunt 2 to the Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB), who has now rated the title "M" for Mature for ages 17 and older.

guinaevere

08-24-2007, 09:44 AM

Yup. I think GS has the release date for the wii game as october 1. Been in the system for about a week now.

mykevermin

08-24-2007, 10:40 AM

<makes jerkoff motion>

fuckin' sellouts.

guinaevere

08-24-2007, 10:44 AM

fuckin' sellouts. fuckin' sellouts capitalists.

Bottom line myke... gotta pay da bills.

Strell

08-24-2007, 10:44 AM

<makes jerkoff motion>

fuckin' sellouts.

I'm willing to bet these two actions were coincidental in their timing under the best of circumstances.

Otherwise I don't want to know anything more.

mykevermin

08-24-2007, 11:16 AM

fuckin' sellouts capitalists.

Bottom line myke... gotta pay da bills.

If that's the case, they shouldn't have taken the "oppressed starving artist" framework in their post-AO rating shenanigans. They should have clammed up, added in more cake and pie (and whatever else would reduce it to an "M" rating), and resubmitted it. But the "artistic integrity" line they brandished for so long is pretty meaningless when they capitulate so easily.

Strell, after a "pop-tart" and cup of Sanka, it's how a bitter liberal should start off every morning.

Strell

08-24-2007, 11:18 AM

Strell, after a "pop-tart" and cup of Sanka, it's how a bitter liberal should start off every morning.

Well I do like the White Frosting variety of poptarts, but they are hard to find in the wild. You have to stay downwind of your prey.

And I am bitter. That makes their sweetness even sweeter.

I'll have to give thought to the proposed complimentary actions. Maybe over a hearty bowl of Frosted Flakes.

Ho ho! Frosted Flakes! I kill me!

mykevermin

08-24-2007, 11:24 AM

tsk tsk. Going for the lowest common denominator today, are we? That kind of material wouldn't even get you on stage at a college bar open mic night. I expect more of you.

Strell

08-24-2007, 11:39 AM

Even Shakespeare wrote for the plebians.

I could have suggested Frosted Shredded Wheat were that more to your liking.

I think cream cheese bagels implies too much work.

guinaevere

08-24-2007, 11:49 AM

If that's the case, they shouldn't have taken the "oppressed starving artist" framework in their post-AO rating shenanigans. They should have clammed up, added in more cake and pie (and whatever else would reduce it to an "M" rating), and resubmitted it. But the "artistic integrity" line they brandished for so long is pretty meaningless when they capitulate so easily.No question, but did anyone actually buy the artistic license garbage? They were putting up an argument which I assumed everyone saw through. "we don't want to change anything, we spent enough time and money towards that end... I know! Let's call it Art. Yeah, appeal to the bleeding hearts who go wild for that sort of trite and see where it takes us. Jones, in the meantime, work on adding more cake and pie. Just in case this doesn't work."

Strell, after a "pop-tart" and cup of Sanka, it's how a bitter liberal should start off every morning.Dude, they still make Sanka? I haven't seen that in probably over 20sumpin years. Brings back creepy memories of sitting bored in some relation's kitchen who I didn't know while the adults spoke haltingly.

I think cream cheese bagels implies too much work."Jones, grab me an onion with lox while you're at it."

Can't find a decent bagel joint around here. Big surprize. South isn't known for their delis. But pork and bbq places on every stinkin' corner. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/guinaevere/smilies/grumps.gif

and just because mykes around... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/guinaevere/smilies/cigar.gif

mykevermin

08-24-2007, 12:23 PM

Even Shakespeare wrote for the plebians.

I could have suggested Frosted Shredded Wheat were that more to your liking.

I think cream cheese bagels implies too much work.

Something about wheat germ seems funny and high-class (because only posh assholes add that nasty stuff to their breakfast plate). It ain't Lenny Bruce, but it works.

I have no idea if they still make Sanka, but it certainly is fun to say and type.

I'm going to hold off on this game and see if (1) the Wii version is hella fun to play or (2) a "director's cut" PC version comes out. I'm not silly enough to call for a nonexistent boycott, but I do find the revision news disappointing.

Zen Davis

08-24-2007, 12:31 PM

Funny thing is that EB has had that date listed for a long time now.

Xevious

08-24-2007, 01:36 PM

mykevermin

08-24-2007, 01:46 PM

:lol: I didn't know that about Scarface. Brian dePalma's a genius (except when it comes to musical scores - good god, man!).

Calamityuponthee

08-24-2007, 01:50 PM

Part of me wants to not buy it now. Bastards.

whoknows

08-24-2007, 02:09 PM

Part of me wants to not buy it now. Bastards.
Most of me wants to not buy it since the first game wasn't that great. Only reason I wanted it was because I couldn't have it. Now that a modified version is coming out I really don't care about it anymore.

whiptcracker

08-24-2007, 02:21 PM

If you spend a lot of money develping a game and then end up editing content you want to still be in a game, it's not selling out, it's trying to recoup development costs. Indigo Prophecy's developers didn't sell out by not including the sex scene on the console version, and I'm assuming they also didn't want it cut out since they worked on it. Same with Condemned 2, they've already mentioned taking stuff out, and artistic merit or not, I'm assuming since they spent the time on putting it in the game that they didn't want it removed.

Also, sure Rockstar's artistic arguement was probably bullshit, but there is merit to their arguement about the double standard being applied to the video game industry. Even if they might welcome the controversy, the fact that there is even this much controversy over content that'd likely be acceptable in an R rated or Unrated movie is of concern, as is Sony's policy of not allowing AO games on their system.

Personally I found the first Manhunt boring, and slightly excessive for no reason other than to be excessively violent. But I'm still buying the game, not for any protest reasons but because I want to stab someone with the Wii-remote.

IAmTheCheapestGamer

08-24-2007, 03:21 PM

They should of gone the Scarface route and resumitted an "edit" copy of the game even though they did not edit anything in the game (I.E. They lied to them). After a few times and wearing them down, they will finally give in and give the game an 'M' rating.

I will still buy this game for the PSP though...

LOL What oh what could they have wanted cut out of the Scarface game? The super gratuitous use of the 4 and more letter words or the fact you can decapitate your enemies with one shot kills if you manually target them?

I've actually emailed Rockstar about releasing the AO version on their website, as a way around the ESRB or to give those wanting the uncut version it without having to deal with the whims of retailers.

Hell, they already sell their older games on there, so why not add this one on there too. Or, they could have the objectionable material blocked like some M rated games had theirs back in the day(Mortal Kombat on Genny and I think SNES, Wu Tang Shaolin Style on PS1) and have it so gamers enter a code if they wanna see the objectionable material.

I don't know, I guess I just think that the standards here are TOO stringent at times.