Japanese game developers say Wii > PS3 & 360

[Monsta Mack]

Japanese publishers switching over to Wii:
Namco Bandai, Capcom, and Sega are redirecting resources from Sony and Microsoft projects to Nintendo projects, reports Variety Asia.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6173230.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=newstop&tag=newstop;title;2

Lock her up if repost.

Oh and for the record I love my 360, but this is bad news, especially for Sony.

[Chacrana]

I'd be annoyed, but I haven't really played more than a handful of games this gen on the 360 and PS3 that I've really enjoyed so... eh... whatever.

[Dr Mario Kart]

They'll just switch back again after everyone goes HD :)

[The Mana Knight]

PS3 has 15 JRPGs in development, according to Dengeki PS. They aren't dropping PS3, end of story. Just more FUD spread again.

[CoffeeEdge]

Simply shocking, considering the sales figures over there. :roll:


They'll just switch back again after everyone goes HD :)
Uh, maybe I'm ignorant or something, but I'd imagine that if anywhere has a high level of HD penetration (ahahahafjsahfjka) right now, it's Japan.

[Apossum]

if i were a developer in japan...I'd make a brain exercise hentai train-rape dating sim j-rpg for the DS and Wii. like shooting fish in a barrel.

[The Mana Knight]

If that was the case, I almost might as well quit gaming (although I do like Sony Computer Entertainment and MS Game Studios stuff). I like those publishers a lot, but I only like the direction of the PSP, PS3, and 360 (which is why I support those three the most). If I see those devs make non-games for DS/Wii, I'm going to be very angry. I've had a DS for a long time and just can't get into it (I really don't like the type of games it has at all and its ruined many series I love), where I've bought many of its games, but I find myself trading in everyone due to quickly becoming bored with them (only games I kept really were Sonic, Mega Man, and Mario Kart). I absolutely don't like the Wii because I want impressive graphics (I have a really nice HDTV and non-next gen consoles look terrible on it), actual games, want a HDD (no 512MB internal memory and not being able to play VC games off of an SD Card), and I hate freaking standing up to play video games. I want to lay down in bed while holding my controller.

I use to like Nintendo a lot with the SNES and I mostly liked the GBA (Had the type of games I want with no touch screen, waggle controls, etc. Only thing that bothered me about the GBA was the sound quality and screen). Now, all Nintendo does is stuff that doesn't interests me. The only two next gen consoles that can keep my interests are the 360 and PS3 (handheld wise, PSP). I just don't see myself buying a Wii for a long time.

[jkam]

Key phrase from the article:

"development costs are lower for Nintendo's hardware."

Now if anyone is really paying attention most of what we talk about between consoles this generation comes down to one thing. Money.

It's why the PS2 continues to sell well and the DS and Wii are selling so well. It's not that the more expensive consoles aren't viable its just that the adoption rate is slower.

It makes sense that developers would want to make games for the biggest installed base because it means the biggest potential for profit. I think as prices drop we will see a shift but if anything we might finally get some worthwhile from the ground up, non-port, and non-mini game Wii software; which in my book is a good thing. I think most of us would agree a system is only worth the sum of its games.

The big 3 are all here to stay but it doesn't mean that the percentages of market share will stay the same.

[botticus]

If that was the case, I almost might as well quit gaming (although I do like Sony Computer Entertainment and MS Game Studios stuff). I like those publishers a lot, but I only like the direction of the PSP, PS3, and 360 (which is why I support those three the most). If I see those devs make non-games for DS/Wii, I'm going to be very angry. I've had a DS for a long time and just can't get into it (I really don't like the type of games it has at all and its ruined many series I love), where I've bought many of its games, but I find myself trading in everyone due to quickly becoming bored with them (only games I kept really were Sonic, Mega Man, and Mario Kart). I absolutely don't like the Wii because I want impressive graphics (I have a really nice HDTV and non-next gen consoles look terrible on it), actual games, want a HDD (no 512MB internal memory and not being able to play VC games off of an SD Card), and I hate freaking standing up to play video games. I want to lay down in bed while holding my controller.

I use to like Nintendo a lot with the SNES and I mostly liked the GBA (Had the type of games I want with no touch screen, waggle controls, etc. Only thing that bothered me about the GBA was the sound quality and screen). Now, all Nintendo does is stuff that doesn't interests me. The only two next gen consoles that can keep my interests are the 360 and PS3 (handheld wise, PSP). I just don't see myself buying a Wii for a long time.
What would happen if those developers made non-non-games for the Wii? Would your head explode? I mean, shit... they might be able to make games with better graphics than the PSP!

Your arguments are almost valid, though silly (personal preference and all that), till you go back to the old "I want to be lazy playing video games" excuse. If you actually had one, you'd be able to play RE4 sitting back on your couch like I just did (very badly :-().

I don't really care if the PS3 has 15 RPGs in development for it, as long as the Wii has at least a half dozen.

[Zoglog]

yeah... that's real surprising considering you can make a shitty port for less cost and it'll sell because Casuals are buying the games. As long as they don't stop REAL games from being made, but as a publisher why would you want to spent millions on a game anymore when you can spent a couple hundred thousand and sell just as much.

[jkam]

I absolutely don't like the Wii because I want impressive graphics (I have a really nice HDTV and non-next gen consoles look terrible on it), actual games, want a HDD (no 512MB internal memory and not being able to play VC games off of an SD Card), and I hate freaking standing up to play video games. I want to lay down in bed while holding my controller.


You don't like the Wii because you want impressive graphics but you're mad you can't play VC games off of an SD Card? According to your logic you wouldn't be playing any VC games because they would look terrible on your HDTV.

At least get your complaints in order.

[dpatel]

Not surprising. The Wii has the price thing going for it, which is a plus on both the consumer and developer end. But, as time goes on, 360/PS3 will go down in price for both the developer and consumer, and developers/consumers will have less of an incentive to support the Wii. Not saying the Wii will flop or anything, but it will lose one of its major selling points, which is price.

[zewone]

Uh-ohs.

Time for another videogame market crash like in da 80's.

[jkam]

Not surprising. The Wii has the price thing going for it, which is a plus on both the consumer and developer end. But, as time goes on, 360/PS3 will go down in price for both the developer and consumer, and developers/consumers will have less of an incentive to support the Wii. Not saying the Wii will flop or anything, but it will lose one of its major selling points, which is price.

If the 360/PS3's costs are going down so will the Wii's.

[The Mana Knight]

You don't like the Wii because you want impressive graphics but you're mad you can't play VC games off of an SD Card? According to your logic you wouldn't be playing any VC games because they would look terrible on your HDTV. Oh course Virtual Console games look like crap on my HDTV, but there's no denying there are some I want to play. At least many VC games are real games, and not non-games like most Wii games (especially Wii Play and Wii Sports). I love impressive graphics, yet I'll play an older PSN or XBLA game every once in a while. However, my gaming is still mostly impressive graphics. Either its old school or impressive graphics, not last generation games being priced at $50.
If the 360/PS3's costs are going down so will the Wii's.Somewhat true, but at the same time, some of the components in the PS3 and 360 will have a bigger exponential drop because they are new at the moment (like the PS3 blu-ray). After a while, the only major things keeping PS3 and 360 priced higher are having a HDD and HDMI (well, on the Elite and PS3). Once every goes HD in 2009, most will be willing to pay that difference (many were willing to pay more for a PS2 or Xbox over a GC last generation).

[Foolman]

Uh, maybe I'm ignorant or something, but I'd imagine that if anywhere has a high level of HD penetration (ahahahafjsahfjka) right now, it's Japan.
Dr. Mario Kart was kidding. ;)
Oh course Virtual Console games look like crap on my HDTV, but there's no denying there are some I want to play. At least many VC games are real games, and not non-games like most Wii games (especially Wii Play and Wii Sports). I love impressive graphics, yet I'll play an older PSN or XBLA game every once in a while. However, my gaming is still mostly impressive graphics. Either its old school or impressive graphics, not last generation games being priced at $50.

There are "real" games on every console. Most PS2, Xbox, and GCN games release at $50, so what exactly is the problem with Wii games being released at $50?

Somewhat true, but at the same time, some of the components in the PS3 and 360 will have a bigger exponential drop because they are new at the moment (like the PS3 blu-ray). After a while, the only major things keeping PS3 and 360 priced higher are having a HDD and HDMI (well, on the Elite and PS3). Once every goes HD in 2009, most will be willing to pay that difference (many were willing to pay more for a PS2 or Xbox over a GC last generation).
Nintendo is in a position where they can always price their console in a better position than their competitors. A Price war isn't a good idea for Sony or Microsoft.

I'm not even going to address your "All HD by 2009" comment. Dr. Mario Kart knows plenty more than me and will probably give you the whole history of that.

[Monsta Mack]

Well It's surprising to me actually. I thought with the Gamecube debacle that the trend would continue that Nintendo would do all the work when it came to development for the Wii, but now perhaps Capcom and Bandai along with Namco would put in a lot of money into the Wii, that the Wii would have more third party support.

Yet at the same time I just hope Capcom doesn't play stupid and fully support the Wii and nothing else, because their sales for Dead Rising and Lost Planet on the 360 were rather high, and of course Devil May Cry 4 is going to the 360 as the final "test".

[dpatel]

If the 360/PS3's costs are going down so will the Wii's.

Of course, but, relative to each other, the 360/PS3s will go down significantly more, and significantly faster than the Wii, making the price difference between the Wii and 360/PS3 to both consumers and developers, less significant.

[The Mana Knight]

There are "real" games on every console. Most PS2, Xbox, and GCN games release at $50, so what exactly is the problem with Wii games being released at $50?Pricing a game at $50 last gen was more excusable because the graphics were the next generation. Wii games are stuck in the previous generation. The majority of new PS2 games are only $40, since development costs have greatly decreased and PS2s graphics are dated. Wii games should be priced no more than $40. If I'm paying at least $50 for a game now, it better be next gen or come with some fancy accessory.

Nintendo is in a position where they can always price their console in a better position than their competitors. A Price war isn't a good idea for Sony or Microsoft.Oh course Nintendo can always cut the price because the Wii is basically a $250 GC with a game and a different controller.

[jkam]

Of course, but, relative to each other, the 360/PS3s will go down significantly more, and significantly faster than the Wii, making the price difference between the Wii and 360/PS3 to both consumers and developers, less significant.

Unless the 360 or the PS3 drop to $150 or $99 I don't see the price difference being something for the favor of Sony or Microsoft. As it is right now Sony is losing money on each console, Microsoft is just now after a year making money (I think), and Nintendo is making a profit on each console sold. Nintendo could probably afford to drop the console by $50 already with out taking a hit where as the competition doesn't have the same luxury. The PS2 and DS are proving that somewhere between $99 and $130 is the magical price point where almost anyone will pick it up without a second thought. This is a price point which the competition may never see. If the Wii has a library that looks anything like the PS2's by that time than I can't imagine that it won't have the same success. It's all "ifs" in the end though. It's a long time from now till then. I'm not counting that factor out.

[furyk]

So the Japanese are going to develop games for the best selling next generation system more then the second best selling next generation system!?!?!?! What surprising and utterly unforeseeable news.

[jkam]

Oh course Virtual Console games look like crap on my HDTV, but there's no denying there are some I want to play. At least many VC games are real games, and not non-games like most Wii games (especially Wii Play and Wii Sports). I love impressive graphics, yet I'll play an older PSN or XBLA game every once in a while. However, my gaming is still mostly impressive graphics. Either its old school or impressive graphics, not last generation games being priced at $50.
Somewhat true, but at the same time, some of the components in the PS3 and 360 will have a bigger exponential drop because they are new at the moment (like the PS3 blu-ray). After a while, the only major things keeping PS3 and 360 priced higher are having a HDD and HDMI (well, on the Elite and PS3). Once every goes HD in 2009, most will be willing to pay that difference (many were willing to pay more for a PS2 or Xbox over a GC last generation).

So if a really great game comes out for the PS3 at $50 but doesn't look impressive graphically then you'll pass? I would imagine the VC, PSN, or XBLA games you would want to play have an element that would draw you in regardless of graphics. I agree we need more than Wii Sports but that is what this is all about. This is the point where we will hopefully start to see what the Wii is actually capable of. If the effort from the developers is there then it won't matter what the competition is doing. The Wii will become viable on its own merits or its own games. Like I stated previously a system is only as good as the sum of its games.

Even though I like the Wii its obvious that we haven't gotten much in terms of non-port, non mini game, and ground up stuff even from Nintendo themselves. It's not as if I said Nintendo doesn't have prove themselves. It's a long race.

[Scrubking]

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1331/643420040_78c4cf3911_o.gif

[The Mana Knight]

So if a really great game comes out for the PS3 at $50 but doesn't look impressive graphically then you'll pass? Most every PS3 and/or 360 game looks good. Even if they aren’t impressive, they support HD at least. I’ll buy some PS2 ports on 360, because they happen to be more friendly on my HDTV (so I can run them at 1080i/720p), instead of 480i/p like on Wii.
I would imagine the VC, PSN, or XBLA games you would want to play have an element that would draw you in regardless of graphics. PSN and XBLA games are only costing me $5-$15. Heck, many PSN games have better graphics than Wii games, yet they cost 5 times less.
I agree we need more than Wii Sports but that is what this is all about. This is the point where we will hopefully start to see what the Wii is actually capable of. If the effort from the developers is there then it won't matter what the competition is doing. The Wii will become viable on its own merits or its own games. Like I stated previously a system is only as good as the sum of its games.I just have to hope developers make more hardcore games for Wii and not just casual games. If there are more that interests me, I will eventually get one, but there’s no denying I want my HD graphics (or HD support).

[VanillaGorilla]

This story certainly makes sense, because just look at all the awesome third party Wii games coming out in the next couple months. Games like, um.........nevermind.

[daroga]

Mana Knight, do you even have a Wii? Don't worry, if you don't, I won't dismiss all of your posts as invalid as you do mine. :)

Seriously, though, you can say waht you want about the Wii's graphical powers or lack thereof, but the VC games look fantastic in progressive scan. Sonic 2 looks better than it ever has been.

Are you playing PS2 games on that HDTV?

[happy]

I'll believe it when I see the actual game announcements. In my mind at least so far this year PS2 has still has by far the best collection of new games come out, and if gamers really don't want HD then developers can keep making games for the enormous PS2 fan base far cheaper than for the Wii.

[ratzombie]

Great news, the Wii could obviously use more 3rd party support. As long as the developers are going to be making games that use the Wii to its fullest potential, I'm in.

[dpatel]

Unless the 360 or the PS3 drop to $150 or $99 I don't see the price difference being something for the favor of Sony or Microsoft. As it is right now Sony is losing money on each console, Microsoft is just now after a year making money (I think), and Nintendo is making a profit on each console sold. Nintendo could probably afford to drop the console by $50 already with out taking a hit where as the competition doesn't have the same luxury.

You are focusing too much on the short term. What I am basically saying is, right now, the Wii is cheaper than the PS3/360 and much cheaper to develop for. Over time, this will still be true for the entire gen, but the difference in price will slowly start to decrease. Right now, the PS3 is $350 more than the Wii, but I would seriously be surprised if that were still true when the first round of price drops comes. Just speculation on my part, of course.

The PS2 and DS are proving that somewhere between $99 and $130 is the magical price point where almost anyone will pick it up without a second thought. This is a price point which the competition may never see.

Actually, the PS2 proved the $200 price point is the magical price point. That is when the PS2 got most of its sales. The DS is different, since it is a handheld, and prices are different there.

If the Wii has a library that looks anything like the PS2's by that time than I can't imagine that it won't have the same success. It's all "ifs" in the end though. It's a long time from now till then. I'm not counting that factor out.

I can't see that happening. I can definitely see the Wii replicating the PS2's success in the short run, but, unlike last gen, the competition to the Wii actually offer a drastically different gaming experience. Last gen, with the PS2, it got the most support and the competition, GCN/Xbox, were only marginally better than the PS2, which didn't really warrant the jump to those systems from the developers/consumers. The 360/PS3 are pretty much a generation ahead of the Wii and, so far, it seems the only thing hindering their sales seems to be price. And, like I've been saying, the price difference between the consoles will slowly decrease until it is pretty much a moot point.

[Dr Mario Kart]

Sure, the price of the hardware will drop, but how does the cost of development drop...ever? Sure, you get more proficiency with the system, but that seems like a marginal factor.

I'm certainly willing to concede that the PS3 will get most of its sales at $200.

[dpatel]

Sure, the price of the hardware will drop, but how does the cost of development drop...ever? Sure, you get more proficiency with the system, but that seems like a marginal factor.

To be honest, I really don't know how much development costs will change over time, but I do know they will be more efficient with the development process as time goes on. The major factor is the hardware price differences between the consoles. As the price difference decreases, consumers will have less of an incentive to save money with the Wii, and, as consumers start adopting the PS3/360, development support will naturally come. I really don't believe this gen will be like previous gen in which the initial winner gains the most support and carries the momentum through its entire life. Given the difference between the Wii and the PS3/360, I can definitely see the Wii benefiting initially from its cheaper price and taking off for the first 2-3 years of the gen, but, around that time, the 360/PS3 will have become quite a bit cheaper (as will the Wii, but the difference in price won't be as great as it is now), and, I believe, that is when the 360/PS3 will shine.

I'm certainly willing to concede that the PS3 will get most of its sales at $200.

That was the magical point last gen. However, this gen, prices have gone up universally, and with the PS3 starting out at a much higher price, I imagine its 'sweet spot' might be slightly higher.

[Zen Davis]

I think we're all going to drop a collective load when E3 hits.

[Dr Mario Kart]

Even with this generation of new precedents, there are still a few old precedents to contend with:

Yes, the PS2 sold most of its units after a price drop. HOWEVER, I believe the leading trend was already in place before then. The drop didnt SPUR the lead. The drops in Gamecube and XBOX had significantly less of an effect. This is where position and history matter. Price drop effects don't occur as if in a vacuum. To suggest that the sweet spot is higher just because the starting prices were higher is pure speculation, although it could be absolutely correct.

These races have pretty much always been a massive blowouts. They just arent decided in years 4 and 5. Could it change? Absolutely. Theres just no prior evidence to believe it.

[-Never4ever-]

If that was the case, I almost might as well quit gaming (although I do like Sony Computer Entertainment and MS Game Studios stuff). I like those publishers a lot, but I only like the direction of the PSP, PS3, and 360 (which is why I support those three the most). If I see those devs make non-games for DS/Wii, I'm going to be very angry. I've had a DS for a long time and just can't get into it (I really don't like the type of games it has at all and its ruined many series I love), where I've bought many of its games, but I find myself trading in everyone due to quickly becoming bored with them (only games I kept really were Sonic, Mega Man, and Mario Kart). I absolutely don't like the Wii because I want impressive graphics (I have a really nice HDTV and non-next gen consoles look terrible on it), actual games, want a HDD (no 512MB internal memory and not being able to play VC games off of an SD Card), and I hate freaking standing up to play video games. I want to lay down in bed while holding my controller.

I use to like Nintendo a lot with the SNES and I mostly liked the GBA (Had the type of games I want with no touch screen, waggle controls, etc. Only thing that bothered me about the GBA was the sound quality and screen). Now, all Nintendo does is stuff that doesn't interests me. The only two next gen consoles that can keep my interests are the 360 and PS3 (handheld wise, PSP). I just don't see myself buying a Wii for a long time.

Oh good, you finally cemented yourself as a non-factor in any & all arguments. For a while I was wondering if anything you had to say about any system was relevant at all, thanks for clearing that up.

[seanr1221]

I think they all compliment each other nicely :grouphug:

[dpatel]

Even with this generation of new precedents, there are still a few old precedents to contend with:

Yes, the PS2 sold most of its units after a price drop. HOWEVER, I believe the leading trend was already in place before then. The drop didnt SPUR the lead. The drops in Gamecube and XBOX had significantly less of an effect. This is where position and history matter. Price drop effects don't occur as if in a vacuum.

Definitely. Take a look at the PS2s first year, and look at what the xbox/gcn had to offer at the same time. You can easily see why the PS2 took the lead. I wasn't trying to say that the $200 was the sweet spot for the PS2, but, according to last gen sales, the $200 mark seems to be when all consoles saw a huge jump in sales (with the PS2 already leading, most of those happened to be PS2s).

To suggest that the sweet spot is higher just because the starting prices were higher is pure speculation, although it could be absolutely correct.

Of course. I am not claiming my posts to be correct. I wouldn't be surprised if I ended up being incorrect. I just believe that with prices increasing significantly this gen, a $300 PS3 may look 'cheap' relative to what it was when launched. Whereas, last gen, that was the price consoles started at. But, like I said, it's just speculation on my part.

[Roufuss]

So basacially, Japanese game developers are saying making money > not making money?? AMAZING.

Next will they tell me DS > PSP??? NO WAI!

The DS / PSP are getting all the types of games I love at the moment so I don't care what they do on the consoles. As long as they keep the 2-D goodness flowing my way via DS and PSP, good times.

I don't really see how someone like Mana Knight could supposedly love RPG's, but rail on the DS? Final Fantasy 3, the remake of 4, Luminious Arc, Hoshigami Remix, Etrian Odyysey, FFTA 2, FF 12 Revenant Wings, Dragon Quest 9, and other stuff I probably forgot are as about as old school as it gets on the DS, and none of these games I listed have any DS gimmicks besides maybe using a stylus, which imo just streamlines the process more. I forgot, they might use a dual screen, oh the horror!

And who the hell stands up to play the Wii? I play RE 4 laying on a bed with no problems.

Mana Knight's just show how blatantly anti Nintendo he is, and I'm trying to start any shit, but cmon... the DS has plenty of games that play just like a regular game but use two screens (which is great when used correctly) and for a lot of games I play, the stylus is just used to streamline things. You better believe if something like FF 3 was on the PSP he would call it the great game ever.

[PyroGamer]

Nice to see capcom focusing more on the Wii. I'm sure they're the most likely to put some really quality stuff out.

[-Never4ever-]

This story certainly makes sense, because just look at all the awesome third party Wii games coming out in the next couple months. Games like, um.........nevermind.

Of course, moments after switching focus they just start pulling exclusives out of their ass. I know this concept will blow your mind, but developers actually need time to work on the game before announcing it / showing it.

[Roufuss]

Nice to see capcom focusing more on the Wii. I'm sure they're the most likely to put some really quality stuff out.

If RE 4 is any indication (and it is, too, Zack and Wiki and the other RE look amazing) then Capcom is going to blow the lid off the Wii.

Seriously, anyone who doubts 3rd parties can't make "real" games work on the Wii needs to check out RE 4.

[munch]

And who the hell stands up to play the Wii? I play RE 4 laying on a bed with no problems.

]

I'm pretty sure just people looking for lame excuses not to like the Wii.

[Roufuss]

I'm pretty sure just people looking for lame excuses not to like the Wii.

I always wondered that about all those Wii commercials... who the hell plays Mario Party 8 jumping around like a moron?

That's the one I hate about those commercials, is that it puts across the idea to casual gamers or uninformed people that you every Wii game involves some kind of crazy standing up motion.

I play Wii games just like every other game, I just move my arms a bit more.

Also, to VG, look how many hot DS games were just announced at the end of last year and this year alone - it takes time to get projects started on the system that is destroying the competition. Look at the difference in the DS at launch compared to now.

[Dr Mario Kart]

Yes, there are a lot of RPGs (15) supposedly in development for the PS3. There lots AAA exclusives and cross platform 360 stuff in the works. This is why I'm not calling it yet. Also the first round of price drops seem to be on the horizon.

After some sales numbers for those titles come in is when I'm calling it. Lets see how much money those RPGs make, and how many of those devs devote CONTINUED support for the platform. Lets see how much money FF13, SC4, Tekken 6, and MGS4 make, even across both platforms.

Will Wii ever necessarily get the main, big name franchises? Perhaps not. Whats important is support. Original titles are just fine.

And lets see where DQ10 goes.

[jkam]

And lets see where DQ10 goes.

VERY good point.

[zewone]

I play the Wii standing up. :cry:

[seanr1221]

I play wii sports (minus tennis) standing.

[Roufuss]

I play wii sports (minus tennis) standing.

Well, me too, cause well, I guess you have to.

But Mario Party 8? Big Brain Academy? Who plays those standing up like on those commercials? It's always two people standing side by side like you need to throw your couch out the window to play anything on the Wii.

Or, for Call of Duty 3, you need your couch for STRATEGIC COVER.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxmTYs9bakc

What a douche.

What the fuck is he even aiming at??

Here's another shitty Wii commercial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-IPrih1wDA&mode=related&search=

Who plays Mario Party 8 like that?? No one.

[jer7583]

Next Gen needed to stay under wraps for another 3 years or so.

[Roufuss]

Next Gen needed to stay under wraps for another 3 years or so.

Yea, it sure did. Developers still could have gotten a lot of life left out of the PS2 if they wanted (and the Gamecube too... I firmly believe PLENTY of upcoming Wii games were once GC games), and probably the Xbox...hell, they still are, with the PS2.

Hell, some of the most anticapted games on three of the hottest systems are ports of last gen AAA games - RE 4 on the Wii, NG Sigma on the PS3, Riddick for the 360. That, to me, strikes me as odd - remakes of games that just came out not even three years ago.

[VanillaGorilla]

If RE4 is any indication, the Wii is in for some awesome games. I can't wait to play the Wii version of Metal Gear Solid 3, or the Wii version of Mercenaries 1.

[zewone]

If RE4 is any indication, the Wii is in for some awesome games. I can't wait to play the Wii version of Metal Gear Solid 3, or the Wii version of Mercenaries 1.
Bushido Blade 2!!

:drool:

[Roufuss]

I will say this though, we are seeing some pretty unique and new IP's on all three systems, and that is a step in the right direction from the sequilitis we had last gen. 4 Jak games on the same system? 4 Ratchet's? Seriously? They were good games but did we really need 4 of them?

[seanr1221]

I wouldnt mind 4 dead risings :-#

[VanillaGorilla]

Next Gen needed to stay under wraps for another 3 years or so.I agree. Call of Duty 2, Dead Rising, Resistance, Lost Planet, Condemned, Oblivion, Gears of War, GRAW, GRAW2, Rainbow Six Vegas, Forza 2, The Darkness, Burnout Revenge, PGR3, DiRT, Saints Row, Crackdown, Prey, Call of Duty 3, all those games were clearly rushed, and don't tak advantage of the current next gen technology. Just because NINTENDO doesn't want to go REAL "next gen" doesn't mean the rest of the industry should just wait for them.

[Dr Mario Kart]

Who said anything about rushed or taking advantage of the hardware?

What it IS is not cost effective. Not for the hardware makers, not for the developers, not for the consumers.

The industry doesnt have to wait on Nintendo. They have to wait on ECONOMICS

[Roufuss]

I agree. Call of Duty 2, Dead Rising, Resistance, Lost Planet, Condemned, Oblivion, Gears of War, GRAW, GRAW2, Rainbow Six Vegas, Forza 2, The Darkness, Burnout Revenge, PGR3, DiRT, Saints Row, Crackdown, Prey, Call of Duty 3, all those games were clearly rushed, and don't tak advantage of the current next gen technology. Just because NINTENDO doesn't want to go REAL "next gen" doesn't mean the rest of the industry should just wait for them.

How many of those could have been done on current gen systems without the need for high end graphics?

I'd say, honestly, only Dead Rising really benefitted from more power under the hood by rendering all that shit on screen at one time. Most of those games you listed are just same shit, new glossy coat of paint, and is that all next gen really is? Just a new glossy coat of paint?

I'd say only Dead Rising really took total advantage of the actual technology, rather than making everything shinier, because I don't think Dead Rising could have been done without very severe design cuts to PS2 / Xbox. Almost everything else on that list could have been on the PS2 / Xbox with scaled down graphics and it would have been the same exact game, but only Dead Rising would have been signficantly different.

But maybe next gen just is a shiny new coat of paint, and I'm kind of shocked that, in retrospect over reading this post, I do actually agree with Dr Mario Kart and all the nonsense he spouts that suddenly doesn't strike me as so crazy. Don't get me wrong, I love all the new shit as much as anyone, but to look at the list and realize most of it is "more of the same yet shinier" is just one of those "wow" moments.

And I do own or have played about half the games on that list, and do enjoy them, but it's nothing that couldn't have been done elsewhere, just not as pretty. They take advantage of the video card, yes, but are they taking advantage of smarter AI? Better levels? Better story telling? Or is just simply making everything just look better?

[VanillaGorilla]

Who said anything about rushed or taking advantage of the hardware?

What it IS is not cost effective. Not for the hardware makers, not for the developers, not for the consumers.

The industry doesnt have to wait on Nintendo. They have to wait on ECONOMICSYeah, that 24.4 percent rise in sales sure has killed Ubisoft. IT'S ECONOMICS!

[VanillaGorilla]

And I do own or have played about half the games on that list, and do enjoy them, but it's nothing that couldn't have been done elsewhere, just not as pretty. They take advantage of the video card, yes, but are they taking advantage of smarter AI? Better levels? Better story telling? Or is just simply making everything just look better?Then what are you expecting from games? Is the "flick the wrist to cast your fishing line" aspect of the Wii something you would rather see, instead of everything becoming bigger and better? People need to give up this pipedream that "next gen" games are supposed to do amazing things. They are videogames. You control what's on the screen by manipulating a controller. There's not too many more ways you can expand on that. I would much rather see smarter, better looking enemies, than last gen enemies WHO YOU CAN CUT DOWN BY MOVING YOUR ARM FROM LEFT TO RIGHT!

[Dr Mario Kart]

Yeah, that 24.4 percent rise in sales sure has killed Ubisoft. IT'S ECONOMICS!...I dont quite see where you're going with this. Are you suggesting that this had to do with GRAW or their early investment in Wii?

Capcom did well with their 360 projects, and yet here they are in this list of devs moving resources. ::shrug::

You're right in that people shouldnt be expecting too much of their next-gen games. The problem is that everyone at every level has to pay so much more for it.

[Dr Mario Kart]

We're looking at the same data, but coming to different conclusions. I think they DO have a very big problem with the costs. The developer and publisher in particular, not so much the consumer.

[VanillaGorilla]

This idea that waiting for the next gen would lower costs and everything is silly. It would have just put off the arms race for another couple years.

[The Crotch]

I would much rather see smarter... enemies...Just out of curiousity, where are these mythical creatures of which you speak?

[Roufuss]

Then what are you expecting from games? Is the "flick the wrist to cast your fishing line" aspect of the Wii something you would rather see, instead of everything becoming bigger and better? People need to give up this pipedream that "next gen" games are supposed to do amazing things. They are videogames. You control what's on the screen by manipulating a controller. There's not too many more ways you can expand on that. I would much rather see smarter, better looking enemies, than last gen enemies WHO YOU CAN CUT DOWN BY MOVING YOUR ARM FROM LEFT TO RIGHT!

But we're not seeing smarter enemies. I don't remember one 360 game I played where I was like "Wow, the AI is so smart, they is really improved from what I saw currently". Racers still use the rubberband AI. Majority of FPS's AI just runs straight at you, or very shittily uses cover. Nobody in Oblivion uses any sort of intelligent AI at all. Oblivion could have easily have been done on the regular Xbox with still decent graphics, just not as great as the 360.

Is "next gen" supposed to be "Oh wow, my car in Forza 2 gets more damage and dirt on it as opposed to Forza 1! That light bloom on my car is AMAZING!", while still being almost the same exact game with prettier options?

Really, name me some clear cut examples of what games could not have been done with lesser graphics on any next gen platform other than Dead Rising. Almost everything in your list you mentioned earlier is just "shinier graphics", and other than Dead Rising everything else could have been executed with the exact same concept and ideas on the regular Xbox.

At least the Wii tries to do something different, and it seems like it's succeeding. If "next gen" isn't supposed to do "amazing things", then what is the point? Paying $400 a game and another $60 for a game that is largely the same as everything we just saw last gen except prettier? There have been no major strides in AI with the power of the 360. There has been no larger worlds, for the most part (San Andreas is still pretty fucking big, as is Morrowind). No radical advancement in level design or storytelling.

Same shit, new coat of paint. If "next gen" to you is just prettier enemies, well, enjoy it. I for one would like to see this systems start doing things that are *only* capable of being done on a 360 / PS3 other than "wow that bump mapping is so amazing". How about "Wow, I can't believe how intelligent this AI is?" or "Wow, this level design really blew my mind". or "Wow, this world is so huge and varied (something Oblivion lacked, imo, was variation), it's so surreal!".

Instead, you're advocating "Well, this FPS on the 360 is just like another FPS, but prettier, so yay!"

Don't paint me out to be some sort of champion of the Wii either because, unlike DMK, I have played my share of next gen games and still play a ton of next gen games but I call it as I see it, and I have seen nothing so far in any game I've played recently other than graphics that made me go "Wow, this is some amazing shit". Enemies in FPS's still react the same way they did years ago, enemies in RTS's are still stupid as hell, level design's are still pretty linear, RPG's haven't evolved much at all.

I do agree with what Crotch says, where are the games with the great AI that you named? I doubt Halo 3 or Bioshock will have some kind of radical new advancements in AI only made possible by the power under the hood.

I want my games, as a whole, to evolve, and go to that next level - I don't really feel as if that's being done, yet, or if it ever will be, then other than a shiny new set of keys to jangle in one's face (the keys being a metaphor for graphics) games this gen are largely the same games as last gen.

[zewone]

...I dont quite see where you're going with this. Are you suggesting that this had to do with GRAW or their early investment in Wii?

Capcom did well with their 360 projects, and yet here they are in this list of devs moving resources. ::shrug::

You're right in that people shouldnt be expecting too much of their next-gen games. The problem is that everyone at every level has to pay so much more for it.
So much more?

That's only true for the PS3.

Nintendo and Microsoft both launched their console at a higher price than the previous gen. (not counting the Core), but I wouldn't go so far as to say "so much more".

[Roufuss]

So much more?

That's only true for the PS3.

Nintendo and Microsoft both launched their console at a higher price than the previous gen. (not counting the Core), but I wouldn't go so far as to say "so much more".

I think he's talking about developmental costs for a 360 game for this gen is so much more than that of your average PS2 / Xbox game of last gen, and that your average consumer is paying a $10 next gen tax as well. Everyone on every level is suffering monetarily by the costs of next gen. Some are small, like the consumer ($10), some are large, like the developers / publishers (way more than $10).

[zewone]

But we're not seeing smarter enemies. I don't remember one 360 game I played where I was like "Wow, the AI is so smart, they is really improved from what I saw currently". Racers still use the rubberband AI. Majority of FPS's AI just runs straight at you, or very shittily uses cover. Nobody in Oblivion uses any sort of intelligent AI at all. Oblivion could have easily have been done on the regular Xbox with still decent graphics, just not as great as the 360.

Is "next gen" supposed to be "Oh wow, my car in Forza 2 gets more damage and dirt on it as opposed to Forza 1! That light bloom on my car is AMAZING!", while still being almost the same exact game with prettier options?

Really, name me some clear cut examples of what games could not have been done with lesser graphics on any next gen platform other than Dead Rising. Almost everything in your list you mentioned earlier is just "shinier graphics", and other than Dead Rising everything else could have been executed with the exact same concept and ideas on the regular Xbox.

At least the Wii tries to do something different, and it seems like it's succeeding. If "next gen" isn't supposed to do "amazing things", then what is the point? Paying $400 a game and another $60 for a game that is largely the same as everything we just saw last gen except prettier? There have been no major strides in AI with the power of the 360. There has been no larger worlds, for the most part (San Andreas is still pretty fucking big, as is Morrowind). No radical advancement in level design or storytelling.

Same shit, new coat of paint. If "next gen" to you is just prettier enemies, well, enjoy it. I for one would like to see this systems start doing things that are *only* capable of being done on a 360 / PS3 other than "wow that bump mapping is so amazing". How about "Wow, I can't believe how intelligent this AI is?" or "Wow, this level design really blew my mind". or "Wow, this world is so huge and varied (something Oblivion lacked, imo, was variation), it's so surreal!".

Instead, you're advocating "Well, this FPS on the 360 is just like another FPS, but prettier, so yay!"

Don't paint me out to be some sort of champion of the Wii either because, unlike DMK, I have played my share of next gen games and still play a ton of next gen games but I call it as I see it, and I have seen nothing so far in any game I've played recently other than graphics that made me go "Wow, this is some amazing shit". Enemies in FPS's still react the same way they did years ago, enemies in RTS's are still stupid as hell, level design's are still pretty linear, RPG's haven't evolved much at all.

I do agree with what Crotch says, where are the games with the great AI that you named? I doubt Halo 3 or Bioshock will have some kind of radical new advancements in AI only made possible by the power under the hood.

I want my games, as a whole, to evolve, and go to that next level - I don't really feel as if that's being done, yet, or if it ever will be, then other than a shiny new set of keys to jangle in one's face games this gen are largely the same games as last gen.
Why does the Wii get a a free "get out of jail card" for all the things you just listed?

I've played very few games in my whole life that have amazed me, but I'm still gaming.

You can't expect the Red Sea to get parted all the time (especially when Madden is constantly the highest selling game every year), but videogames serve as a nice distraction from life.

[Dr Mario Kart]

Price. Basically, it gets a pass because I'm paying $40 for Zach & Wiki. Last gen for last gen prices is just fine, rather than last gen at next-gen prices.

[seanr1221]

Price. Basically, it gets a pass because I'm paying $40 for Zach & Wiki. Last gen for last gen prices is just fine, rather than last gen at next-gen prices.

Majority of ps2/wii games come out at 40.00/50.00 respectively.

[Dr Mario Kart]

New game prices at retail isnt entirely fair, since we all are supposedly cheapasses. I only own ONE Wii game, and really dont intend to buy any more any time soon. I'm buying $10 PS2 games by the basketfull.

[Roufuss]

Why does the Wii get a a free "get out of jail card" for all the things you just listed?

I've played very few games in my whole life that have amazed me, but I'm still gaming.

You can't expect the Red Sea to get parted all the time (especially when Madden is constantly the highest selling game every year), but videogames serve as a nice distraction from life.

I never gave the Wii a get out of jail free card, though - I don't really qualify the Wii as next gen, not even close, so I tend to just omit it in my mind when talking about things like this. The Wii, to me, is something you see that would show up between two gens changing... kind of like the Dreamcast. Takes a little of the old, mixes in a little of the new. I only have about 5 Wii games, and three are ports / not really made for the system, so I'm certainly not going to champion the Wii as anything, and I don't even think I mentioned the Wii in what I wrote.

I don't expect the red sea to get parted, no, but this is the first generation I've seen where nothing really changed - I thought God Of War looked amazing in progressive scan as did Twilight Princess (which, is technically still last gen) and I don't see that same level of jump that previous generations made. NES to SNES was huge. SNES to PS1, that was huge. PS1 to PS2 was huge. PS2 to PS3? Well, not so much. I'm still seeing great looking PS2 games coming out that are still making me go "Wow, PS2 can pull off that? That's pretty cool".

Then I see things like Dead Rising, and go "Wow, no way PS2 / Xbox could pull off something like that in scope" but it seems to be the exception more than the rule, and the rule seems to be "Keep giving the people the same thing with a different coat of paint, they wil eat it up". Why else are we seeing a Riddick remake 2 or 3 years since the game just came out? I do give RE 4 for the Wii a pass since the controls change how you play the game, and in fact, imo, made the game a lot easier to control - something like Riddick is just dropping new paint on it, with a few added levels, but it's largely the same game everyone played in 2004 (single player wise).

It's not just next gen, I think the industry *as a whole* is stagnating, but that's a different topic entirely.

And for the record, it was just the technical aspects of Dead Rising I find pretty amazing and jaw dropping, simply that they got everything on screen with no parlor tricks and no slowdown - that was some amazing stuff. I didn't really find the wonky gameplay to be my thing, but I loved what they were able to do with all aspects of the system.

[zewone]

I'll gladly pay the extra $10-20 for Live.

[seanr1221]

New game prices at retail isnt entirely fair, since we all are supposedly cheapasses. I only own ONE Wii game, and really dont intend to buy any more any time soon. I'm buying $10 PS2 games by the basketfull.

It's still bullshit; just like when the 360 started out and you saw high-res ps2 games selling for 10.00 more on the system.

[Roufuss]

I'll gladly pay the extra $10-20 for Live.

The only problem I have with this is that most Live games in a few short months are graveyards. Not many people playing Saints Row, Fight Night Round 3, or Far Cry last time I went on Live a few months ago, so you're basacially paying $10 - $20 extra for something that will be dead in a few months.

This same argument wouldn't really apply to, say, a Gears of War, where people will play it for awhile, but most Live games don't get the community to stick with them for more than 3 months, tops.

Shadowrun will be another graveyard once Halo 3 hits.

I came from PC gaming to 360 gaming, and in the PC community, once a good game hits, people will play it for years at a time - Call of Duty 2 is still played shitloads, but CoD 2 is probably almost dead on Live. I guess a lot of that can be attributed to modding, but I was still shocked at how people quickly jump from one game to the next as soon as something new comes along, and never goes back to the old game again.

[SNKMat]

fdghf

[guinaevere]

So basacially, Japanese game developers are saying making money > not making money?? AMAZING.Roo, you gots to just go and ruin a perfectly fun arguement with reason and logic and common sense. Don't ya?

I don't really see how someone like Mana Knight could supposedly love RPG's, but rail on the DS? Final Fantasy 3, the remake of 4, Luminious Arc, Hoshigami Remix, Etrian Odyysey, FFTA 2 <snip>My experience in speaking with the Sony die-hards/anti everyone else folk are into Sony for the Jrpgs and any rpg with darker content. They have pledged an unfailing loyalty to the megahouse, and any other system or game will burn in their eyes.

And who the hell stands up to play the Wii?Depending on the mini-game in MP8 or bowling or tennis, I stand.

I play RE 4 laying on a bed with no problems.That's something I have to try. I'll get beds for the entertainment room. :lol:


But to get back to the topic at hand...
Key phrase from the article:

"development costs are lower for Nintendo's hardware."

Now if anyone is really paying attention most of what we talk about between consoles this generation comes down to one thing. Money. Very true. And considering that Nintendo passed Sony in Market Shares (if briefly) the other day in the Nikkei and Tokyo Stock Exchange.

Developers aren't stupid. They're going to invest their man-hours and development money in something that will give them the best return.

[seanr1221]

I'll gladly pay the extra $10-20 for Live.

Ah, and this is where the subjectivity comes in. I agree, I'd gladly play more for live, but people like you and I are on constantly using the service. Someone like DMK hates online play, so to him it's a waste.

In a perfect world, all 3 systems will be supported pretty equally. Hopefully what this story really means is those japanese companies didn't have many resources in the Wii, and now they've got some people working on it, as opposed to, "oh noes the PS3/360 will get no more games."

[zewone]

Well, not everyone is CAGs. They'll buy what they want to play right away and move on when something new comes a long. MS can't do anything about that.

Doesn't really affect me since I have a core group of people to play any online game I want to with.

[Roufuss]

It's obvious that next gen costs ARE a lot higher, if only because so many "Sony exclusive" properties are now going to every platform they could to maximize the high costs of development. I'm shocked we still haven't seen an FF 13 or MGS 4 announcement to 360 yet, because I doubt they will even break even if they just keep them on PS3.

And Zewone, in my minor experience, it seems you have a 3 month window to get in on a game with a strong Live community before they move onto the next big thing, which strikes me as odd - I'm just used to playing the same game years upon years at a time.

[seanr1221]

Shadowrun will be another graveyard once Halo 3 hits.


Really? A drop in players, sure. But I see Shadowrun keeping a cult fan-base for a little while.

[Dr Mario Kart]

I have to hand it to MS though. This feature of the community keeps software sales very robust.

[Roufuss]

I have to hand it to MS though. This feature of the community keeps software sales very robust.

Yea, the aspect of Live, from my experience, is very... pushy? Basacially you see that everyone else is playing the new hot game, whether it's single or multiplayer, and it makes you want to start playing it too. You start to feel left out since you're not part of the new hotness that is spreading around.

It's pretty ingenious.

I know quite a few people that went back out and got Dead or Alive 4 simply because when I first got my 360, it was the only game I had, and got a lot of CAG's back into play it for a short while, simply because of the Live community aspect.

[seanr1221]

YI know quite a few people that went back out and got Dead or Alive 4 simply because when I first got my 360, it was the only game I had, and got a lot of CAG's back into play it for a short while, simply because of the Live community aspect.

Only game? I recall someone owning about 8-9 games when they first bought their 360 ;)

[Roufuss]

Only game? I recall someone owning about 8-9 games when they first bought their 360 ;)

Nah, I had DoA 4 for a good week or two before the Gamestop buy 2 get 1 free, and then I still only played DoA 4 ;) I forget what I played after that, I think it was Marvel Ultimate Alliance. But yea, it was DoA 4 for like a month or so cause I wanted to unlock everything and it took forever.

Oh, wait, we played Burnout Revenge that one time! And I played Far Cry with a friend once and some French people.

[seanr1221]

Ah, I retract my statement :lol:

[The Mana Knight]

Next Gen needed to stay under wraps for another 3 years or so.Blame your precious MS for killing off Xbox too soon (the console was easily good enough to last longer, but MS wanted to move onto another generation quickly) and forcing the 360 out quicker than they should, just to get a head start on the market (one reason why the hardware is so shitty). I guarantee Sony didn't even want to release PS3 until 2008 or 2009, since that's when the market would be more ready for PS3, would have been able to price the console lower, and the firmware would be quite impressive by then.

I kind of agree with Roufuss that as of right now, most good Japanese games are on PSP and DS currently. As much as I support PS3, PSP is actually my current favorite platform by a long shot.

[daroga]

Man, I don't even know what to add to this thread. Roufuss comes in, writes freaking ingenious novellas and leaves me with nothing. Pretty much take everything he's said in this thread and mark it with a "QFT" from me.

There are three significant things that the 360/PS3 can do that the last gen consoles cannot that has impressed me:
1) On screen characters. As mentioned before, Dead Rising is amazing with how much crap is going on. I hated the game, but techincally it was impressive.
2) Draw distance. I literally commented out loud all by myself when I climbed the Agency Tower in Crackdown for the first time and looked over all the islands. To go from GTA on the PS2/Xbox where we had to load each island as you traveled to being able to overlook the whole thing and quickly turn to see the other islands with nary a hiccup in anything? Amazing.
3) Frame rate. 30+, 60 is ideal. Games running silky-smooth consantly can add more to the immersion than 5.1 audio, high res textures, or motion sensing controls ever could. Developers need to make this a #1 priority, not looking nice for screen shots.

There was an interesting blurb on WiiFanboy the other day talking about the "tacked-on" controls for the Wii. Is the Wii really any different from any other game system ever in that regard, though? You've all played games on every system where the controls just work. Everything flows, everything fits, it's amazing. Then, using that same controller, another game can just be awful. I think the Wii is criticized at this moment because of its novelty (we're scared of new things!) and the developers struggling to figure out how to use it well. In the end, the controls will be great for some games and crappy for others. Yet, that's no different than games on the PS3 or 360 either.

[LiK]

nintendo has such a stranglehold with the Japanese market that there's an obvious love from the devs for that system even if the hardware is inferior than the PS360 in terms of raw power.

[trq]

Man. Roufuss just rolled up to this thread, grabbed it by the ears, wrestled it to the ground, and spit in its eye.

So yeah. What he said.

[Dr Mario Kart]

Frame rate? Frame rate is the mortal enemy of resolution. More power doesnt guarantee you a nice frame rate at all, especially when you're using it to jam more and more fanciness on the screen.

A lot of gamecube games in particular run at a smooth 60, because they didnt overextend themselves with the power that they had.

[-Never4ever-]

Next Gen needed to stay under wraps for another 3 years or so.

That's what I was thinking, but M$ really had to have that edge up on Sony, and sony . . . well they had this silly notion that they don't have to listen to their fan base at all and can release whatever they what, long as it had BR.

Honestly, we could have went another 5 years with no PS3 or 360.

[daroga]

Frame rate? Frame rate is the mortal enemy of resolution. More power doesnt guarantee you a nice frame rate at all, especially when you're using it to jam more and more fanciness on the screen.

A lot of gamecube games in particular run at a smooth 60, because they didnt overextend themselves with the power that they had.Right, which is why they need to focus on frame-rate all the more. I've never really understood the desire for 1080p gaming? "Photo-realistic" in that it looks like a bunch of photos flipping in a book?

[Roufuss]

Right, which is why they need to focus on frame-rate all the more. I've never really understood the desire for 1080p gaming? "Photo-realistic" in that it looks like a bunch of photos flipping in a book?

:rofl:

The thing I absolutely hated about a lot of 360 games is that they turned vertical sync off in terms of getting a higher framerate because they were having too much trouble keeping it at 60 with V-Sync on. As a result, I'd get some pretty bad screen tearing.

I've actually gotten used to it, oddly enough, and turned V-Sync on my PC off.

I'd rather they keep it at 60 FPS without the screen tearing.

[VanillaGorilla]

Cheap Ass Gamers:

Go nuts over original games. Next generation systems bring original IP's.

But they don't want next gen yet. Shoot, next gen should have waited another 5 years!

Don't think they need 4 Ratchet games on a system. Yet, extend the life of PS2/Xbox/Gamecube, and that's all you'll get, more of the same; proven franchises that have a proven fanbase on a proven console.

So, in summary, they want the original games, but they don't want the systems that usher in those games.

[furyk]

Cheap Ass Gamers:

Go nuts over original games. Next generation systems bring original IP's.

But they don't want next gen yet. Shoot, next gen should have waited another 5 years!

Don't think they need 4 Ratchet games on a system. Yet, extend the life of PS2/Xbox/Gamecube, and that's all you'll get, more of the same; proven franchises that have a proven fanbase on a proven console.

So, in summary, they want the original games, but they don't want the systems that usher in those games.

*awards a gold medal for jumping in logic*

Clearly originality is completely equatable with power. That's why the most original games of 2007, games like Odin Sphere, Crush, and Kororinpa: Marble Mania have all been on "underpowered" systems.

If anything, next gen games are more chalk than current gen games simply because of the fact that so much more money goes into next generation games then last generation games. There are next generation games out right now that are unique (Shadowrun springs to mind), but the vast majority of the most creative games that have come out were on "underpowered" systems (including the Wii) or on handheld systems.

[Roufuss]

Most next gen games HAVE to stick with what sells and follow a predetermined formula of success because they *have* to make up the huge development costs.

Shadowrun is a good example - apparently, this game didn't sell that well, so it sends a clear message out to developers to not think outside the box, to stick with what works and only provide very minor tweaks and pattern it after other, sucessful games. Halo 3 will sell an assload, and every developer wants a potential Halo 3 on their hands, so they will just make a game trying to capture what made Halo 3 good, instead of making a game good based on its own merits.

You don't have to do that on the the last gen systems and portables because developmental costs are so much lower you can take a risk. I don't think we will ever see a game like Grim Grimoire on the 360 / PS3. Hell, even Blue Dragon is a very by the book RPG using a proven formula for success with very little deviation.

I'm starting to see *why* remaking 3 year old AAA proven sellers is such a hot concept now - with rising development costs, if Chronicles Of Riddick sold so great before, hell, slap a new coat of paint on it and it's a guaranteed seller all over again. RE 4 is so awesome, let's throw some wii controls on it and watch it fly off the shelves. From everything I read about Halo 3, it's by and large the same as it always was, but why fix what will sell millions of copies the first week? Hell, I'm starting to see why developers are so remake happy to begin with, because in a world where development costs are sky high, let's just slap a remake with better graphics on it and old and new gamers alike will flock to it. We're probably all guilty of buying remakes, shit I just bought two today, so the theory holds water.

[VanillaGorilla]

*awards a gold medal for jumping in logic*

Clearly originality is completely equatable with power. That's why the most original games of 2007, games like Odin Sphere, Crush, and Kororinpa: Marble Mania have all been on "underpowered" systems.

If anything, next gen games are more chalk than current gen games simply because of the fact that so much more money goes into next generation games then last generation games. There are next generation games out right now that are unique (Shadowrun springs to mind), but the vast majority of the most creative games that have come out were on "underpowered" systems (including the Wii) or on handheld systems.Odin Sphere is original? Yeah, you don't see too many anime style action/RPG's on the Ps2....

[furyk]

Odin Sphere is original? Yeah, you don't see too many anime style action/RPG's on the Ps2....

That are 2D platformers too? Yeah I'd say that you don't see many 2D action RPGs in this day and age. If originality was simply an aspect of story then the only games you named that are original are the Darkness and maybe Lost Planet would be considered original. Hell, those two games and Dead Rising are the only things that you mentioned that AREN'T sequels.

Basically, I'm calling you on what I see as BS. Tell me any PS3 or 360 game out from 2007 that isn't a download game (since clearly Calling All Cars could be pulled off on a PS2) that is a more original game then Odin Sphere, let alone Crush.

[Roufuss]

That are 2D platformers too? Yeah I'd say that you don't see many 2D action RPGs in this day and age. If originality was simply an aspect of story then the only games you named that are original are the Darkness and maybe Lost Planet would be considered original. Hell, those two games and Dead Rising are the only things that you mentioned that AREN'T sequels.

Basically, I'm calling you on what I see as BS. Tell me any PS3 or 360 game out from 2007 that isn't a download game (since clearly Calling All Cars could be pulled off on a PS2) that is a more original game then Odin Sphere, let alone Crush.

I would call Odin Sphere more of a beatemup infused with a great story with plenty of RPG elements to go around, over an action RPG. And in that respect, yea, it is original, because other than Princess Crown I really can't think of anything that goes to the depths that Odin Sphere did, especially with item management and usage.

Odin Sphere is the first to unite the two genres fully while introducing some new ideas.

None the less, I would use Grim Grimoire as a far better example of a truly unique title.

[VanillaGorilla]

That are 2D platformers too? Yeah I'd say that you don't see many 2D action RPGs in this day and age. If originality was simply an aspect of story then the only games you named that are original are the Darkness and maybe Lost Planet would be considered original. Hell, those two games and Dead Rising are the only things that you mentioned that AREN'T sequels.

Basically, I'm calling you on what I see as BS. Tell me any PS3 or 360 game out from 2007 that isn't a download game (since clearly Calling All Cars could be pulled off on a PS2) that is a more original game then Odin Sphere, let alone Crush.Originality doesn't always equal "good". I would much rather play a great FPS than some whacky, Japanese-centric "original" game that masks is crappy, basic gameplay with silliness (Katamari Damacy, anyone? Yeah, rolling shit into a ball is groundbreak gameplay.)

[dragonreborn23]

Japanese publishers switching over to Wii:
Namco Bandai, Capcom, and Sega are redirecting resources from Sony and Microsoft projects to Nintendo projects, reports Variety Asia.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6173230.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=newstop&tag=newstop;title;2

Lock her up if repost.

Oh and for the record I love my 360, but this is bad news, especially for Sony.

Well of course they are increasing development for the Wii! They weren't developing enough for it in the first place. It's not like they are abandoning next gen systems, they are just spreading out their resources so they can make more money.

[Foolman]

Go back to your original point VanillaGorilla. Why do next generation machines bring original IPs?

[Roufuss]

Originality doesn't always equal "good". I would much rather play a great FPS than some whacky, Japanese-centric "original" game that masks is crappy, basic gameplay with silliness (Katamari Damacy, anyone? Yeah, rolling shit into a ball is groundbreak gameplay.)

Different strokes for different folks.

Most people would rather play something original than play generic FPS # 132. Rolling shit into a ball is more groundbreaking gameplay than what you'll see in Halo 3, that's for damn sure.

Basacially, you are one of the million's of consumers who is happy getting the same thing over and over and over again - nothing wrong with that. Hell, that's the philosophy most games are built on these days.

I find it odd that you were so against a remake of Chronicles of Riddick in that 360 thread, yet you just admit you would rather play a great FPS? Riddick is a great FPS, so what's the deal? You hate originality, yet you hate when developers stick to more of the same? What exactly do you want out of the industry?

One minute you want change and new IP's, the next minute you're happy with the same old shit. Yet you'll probably say you wanted a sequel to Riddick, and not a redone original version of the game, but what's the difference? Both games would probably end up being pretty similar except for one or two minor tweaks, and hell, why not buy a remake of what you already know is essentially a "great FPS"?

Hell, most of the games you originally listed as being such shining examples of next gen are just more of the same, yet you hate remakes? But it's ok to slap a new number on a box, provide largely the same experience, and that gets a pass, such as Forza to Forza 2?

[Roufuss]

Since I hate editing a post that people have already read and won't go back to re-read:

VG, are you basacially saying you want new IP's that provide the same things you got out of old IP's? What is the point of a new IP then? Why don't they just crank out a sequel to a currently existing one if it's by and large going to be the same thing?

You seem to dislike originality and would rather play something molded into a proven formula, but you don't need an original IP to do that.. I was always under the impression original IP's were to promote original ideas, not just throw a different face behind a gun but still provide the same action you've seen in 100's of other FPS's.

For the record, I am in fact an FPS fan, and have played through plenty of them, and by and large they are interchangable minus one or two gimmicks used to tell them apart, and very rarely (but hell, not usually) the setting.

[furyk]

Originality doesn't always equal "good". I would much rather play a great FPS than some whacky, Japanese-centric "original" game that masks is crappy, basic gameplay with silliness (Katamari Damacy, anyone? Yeah, rolling shit into a ball is groundbreak gameplay.)

First off, Katamari is a great game. Second, what game did I mention that was crappy? You're the one who made the claim that next gen is necessary for original games. Finally, what game did I mention that sucks? Next gen hasn't been the be all, end all that it seems like you're implying it has been.

[daroga]

This thread is awesome.

There seems to be two camps going on here. One that either can't stand or won't believe that the mantra of video games for years (More Power = New Shiny = Better) just might not be the way the mass-market is taking things anymore. Then you have the others, who are embracing it--some who had from the beginning some who are newly changing their thinking.

The former camp is really grasping at dtraws to defend themselves, though. More horsepower = New IPs? Really? So there's no sequels on the PS3 or 360? And no new IPs hitting the PS2, PSP, DS, or Wii? That's just silly.

I really can't wait to see what the full creative forces at some developers will bring to the Wii. I'd assume that it's not going to be all their D-rank shoddy-port-pushers.

[botticus]

I really can't wait to see what the full creative forces at some developers will bring to the Wii. I'd assume that it's not going to be all their D-rank shoddy-port-pushers.Bring on Treasure Island Z. I hope someone makes such a custom cover that I can replace Zack and Wiki with.

[zewone]

So less horsepower = new IPs?

[Dr Mario Kart]

So less horsepower = new IPs?
If new IP's mean more risk and less horsepower lowers dev costs so that more risk is slightly more acceptable, then yes, in a roundabout way.

[daroga]

So less horsepower = new IPs?Trying to find a connection between any amount of horsepower and new IPs would be a false correlation.

[zewone]

If new IP's mean more risk and less horsepower lowers dev costs so that more risk is slightly more acceptable, then yes, in a roundabout way.
I can see that.

But, it's not an absolute.

[Roufuss]

I can see that.

But, it's not an absolute.

But would you ever see something like Grim Grimoire pressed to a disc on the 360 or PS3?

Probably not. Why take a risk when development costs are so high unless you have a guaranteed seller?

It's not an absolute but I've read many an article where developers state that since development costs are lower on the DS / PSP, they are more free to think outside of the box because they don't need a million seller to make their money back.

[The Mana Knight]

But would you ever see something like Grim Grimoire pressed to a disc on the 360 or PS3?

Probably not. Why take a risk when development costs are so high unless you have a guaranteed seller?

It's not an absolute but I've read many an article where developers state that since development costs are lower on the DS / PSP, they are more free to think outside of the box because they don't need a million seller to make their money back.Now a days, if devs want to do that, they can also make XBLA or PSN games, since they happen to be cheap to develop.

[The Mana Knight]

I just went through various Japanese sales charts. By the looks of things, if the Wii continues to pull away in Japan, Nintendo might have just killed good gaming in Japan (along with fucking buying Monolith Soft that still pisses me off to this day).

However, if devs start making more of the type of games they make on DS for Wii (instead of the more hardcore, impressive looking games on PS3/360), then good gaming might be doomed, and here's why. Many of the top selling or DS games that have done well are:
Practice by Observing: DS Observation Training
English Training for Adults
More English Training for Adults
Common Sense Training
DS Cuisine Navigator
Middle School English Vocabulary Target 1800 DS
1000 Healthy DS Recipes
Detailed World History B Total Training
TOEIC Test Training DS
Detailed Japanese History B Total Training
Stock Trader Shun
Heisei Board of Education DS
Right Brain Expert : Machigai Museum 2
Electric Brain Repetition
Writing and Speaking Beautiful Japanese DS

If Namco Bandai, Sega, Capcom, etc. start making more of these non-games instead of real games(because they're what sells in Japan over a Mega Man, Phantasy Star, etc.), then Nintendo might have just hurt gaming if the Wii is successful, but that's my opinion. These make dating sims and horse sims seem normal. I don't really want to argue but I hate this crap and don't want to see good devs making this instead of stuff I like in Japan.

[Foolman]

Face, meet palm.

By the way, just glancing at your list, I can tell you either made shit up or you're getting things mixed up. I can pick up a couple of those games off the top of my head that bombed horribly. Try again.

[botticus]

Face, meet palm.

By the way, just glancing at your list, I can tell you either made shit up or you're getting things mixed up. I can pick up a couple of those games off the top of my head that bombed horribly. Try again.:lol: I wasn't going to bother responding, but yeah, I think he basically pulled together every non-game that's been in the top 50. And ignored such things as the 5 million-selling Pokemon and NSMB. As an example, Stock Trader Shun (which is actually a Phoenix Wright-style stock trading "adventure", that I would love to see come over here) barely broke 10k, if it has even done so yet.

But, the new kanji translation software looks like something I might invest in. I've debating learning Japanese, and it might be an entertaining way to give it a shot, though probably not the more useful:

*plays 5 minutes of random Japanese import, writes down all kanji symbols, reboots DS, writes kanji symbols in translation program, translation complete*

[The Mana Knight]

Face, meet palm.

By the way, just glancing at your list, I can tell you either made shit up or you're getting things mixed up. I can pick up a couple of those games off the top of my head that bombed horribly. Try again.Nope, I looked on vgcharts. I wasn't making ANY of the games up. Seriously, that's just how sickening gaming has become there in Japan, due to the DS popularity.

Like I said on another forum, if PlayStation was over (meaning never seeing another), I'd quit gaming forever, do stuff with friends more, get a girlfriend, etc.

[furyk]

In fairness to game games in Japan, most games had no staying power at all. Just because Nintendo makes money off non-games doesn't mean that an SMT game or Dragon Quest will sell any less. I think the Japanese sales indicate that people are buying more games rather then the market has shifted. It may end up cutting out the amount of real games in the long run, but you know what? Last generation real games bored me to tears most of the time. My favorite games of last gen were Wario Ware, Katamari Damacy, Super Smash Brothers Melee, and other games you could pick up, play, and then walk away from without sinking 20 hours into it. If that whole casual element of gaming shifts the market to shorter and more focused experiences like say MGS:PO or Drill Dozer then I'm okay with that.

[zewone]

Like I said on another forum, if PlayStation was over (meaning never seeing another), I'd quit gaming forever, do stuff with friends more, get a girlfriend, etc.
If that's true, you've got bigger problems to worry about then what direction the videogame industry is heading.

[zewone]

If that whole casual element of gaming shifts the market to shorter and more focused experiences like say MGS:PO or Drill Dozer then I'm okay with that.
But, that's not okay for everyone, which are the one's (like me) that are complaining.

[botticus]

But, that's not okay for everyone, which are the one's (like me) that are complaining.It's one thing to complain that the industry is going to favor a direction that you won't like, but its quite another to say that the industry is "ruined" or that gaming is dead as a result. If there are people who think that someone like Itagaki or [insert other "hardcore" game designer of preference here] is going to happily turn to making dishwashing trainers for the DS, they are likely mistaken.

[daroga]

I would pay $50, neh, $60 for Dish Washer Gaiden.

Mana Knight, you need to understand that Nintendo's selling to several different groups of people. There's the people buying a DS for Brain Training etc. and then those that are buying it for New Super Mario Bros. There's certainly some overlap there, but I think there's at least two separate groups fueling the DS fire. Yeah, Nintendo's making Big Brain Academy-esque games for the Wii. But they're also making Twilight Princess, Phantom Hourglass, Mario Galaxy, SSBB, Metroid Prime 3, etc. Even if they're not all your cup of tea, they certainly fall into whatever idiotic defintion of "hardcore" or "true" games that are out there. Companies aren't ignoring that, but broadening their horizons.

That being said, I do share some concern that the profitability of the non-game might be infinitely higher than the regular-game, and thus we could see some companies slow or stop their progress in regular games. However, any company that would do that probably isn't making games that are all that great in the first place. I certainly don't forsee Nintendo, Sony, or Microsoft giving up on the game types we know and love in favor of some silly mini-game-train-your-nose game.

If Nintendo was "ruining" the game market, NSMB wouldn't have been in the top charts for a year now world wide. Your melodramatics in this whole thing make me think that it would be good for you to be done with gaming and find those friends and girlfriend and be done with this whole thing. Your priorties should be toward that, not games, in the first place. :)

[daroga]

IMO, New Super Mario Bros. sucked very badly (I bought the game on release too pretty excited), and is proof the Mario platforming series is no longer good. I barely consider NSMB a game anyway due to being ridiculously easy and stupid touch screen controls. I doubt Galaxy will be much better, erasing the terrible taste NSMB and Super Mario Sunshine put in my mouth.That's too bad. I thought it was fantastic. So did about 10 million other people I guess.

So really, your complaint is not that they're not making any core games, it's that you don't like the core games that they're making. That's a jump from objective to subjective. It's fine to be of that opinion, but understand you have no room to claim "fact."

EDIT: Where'd that post go?

[The Mana Knight]

Your melodramatics in this whole thing make me think that it would be good for you to be done with gaming and find those friends and girlfriend and be done with this whole thing. Your priorties should be toward that, not games, in the first place. :)Probably, because all I do everyday is play video games, spend lots of time on message boards, watch some anime, etc. If it's a semester, go to classes and do my work. I just don't make time for friends, get a girl, etc. because I do too much gaming (around 2-8 hours a day) and internet posting (5-12 hours a day).
That's too bad. I thought it was fantastic. So did about 10 million other people I guess.

So really, your complaint is not that they're not making any core games, it's that you don't like the core games that they're making. That's a jump from objective to subjective. It's fine to be of that opinion, but understand you have no room to claim "fact."I thought my post was crap and after reading my posts a little more carefully, I shouldn't have been mean to you (sorry, I get carried away in arguments), so I removed it. I do like platformers though, but I'm more into a Daxter, Ratchet & Clank, Ape Escape, Voodoo Vince, Blinx, etc. type. I dunno, I might have expected too much out of NSMB. However, I really liked Sonic Rush on DS (still play that now a lot).

[furyk]

Wow, civility! Good show Mana Knight. I personally hated Super Mario Sunshine too. NSMB was a fun game, but I could see how people didn't care for it.

But, that's not okay for everyone, which are the one's (like me) that are complaining.

I don't understand your point. I've never heard anyone who's enjoyed sidequests or fetch quests that extend a game's play time. I don't mind a longer game, but I want it to feel like it accomplishes something in the process. A game like Resident Evil 4 is an example of a great, focused game not bogged down by side quests that are a bother. Truth be told (to prove I'm not all pro-Nintendo on this) I really loved Twilight Princess until after the Temple of Time. After that, it's run around the map to unlock the next dungeon by moving statues. I still haven't finished Twilight Princess because that blatant and meandering side quest. I'd rather play a shorter game without the fat then a longer game with some filler tossed into it.

[daroga]

I thought my post was crap and after reading my posts a little more carefully, I shouldn't have been mean to you (sorry, I get carried away in arguments), so I removed it. I do like platformers though, but I'm more into a Daxter, Ratchet & Clank, Ape Escape, Voodoo Vince, Blinx, etc. type. I dunno, I might have expected too much out of NSMB. However, I really liked Sonic Rush on DS (still play that now a lot).3D Platformers more your style?

If there was one thing that NSMB was lacking it was difficulty. COllecting everything had it challenges, but to just beat the game (and even beat all the levels in all the worlds) wasn't exactly a terribly difficult task. It's still fun for me, but to each his own. And yes, Sonic Rush is awesome.

You know what I want and we'll never see in an age of mostly dumbed-down games? A platformer consisting of nothing but the level style as Mario Sunshine had in the Water-Pack-Less levels. It was like the Bowser stages from Mario 64 on crack. I loved those, despite what my cries of agony may have told passer-bys. ;)

Seriously, though, as one gamer to another, I'd really encourage you to get out and hang with some people. When you let games be your distraction from real life and not your life, not only is life better but I think you enjoy the games more. I know I do--I cherish my gaming time because it's not "whatever, whenever." That was mightly off topic, but sincere.

[zewone]

Wow, civility! Good show Mana Knight. I personally hated Super Mario Sunshine too. NSMB was a fun game, but I could see how people didn't care for it.



I don't understand your point. I've never heard anyone who's enjoyed sidequests or fetch quests that extend a game's play time. I don't mind a longer game, but I want it to feel like it accomplishes something in the process. A game like Resident Evil 4 is an example of a great, focused game not bogged down by side quests that are a bother. Truth be told (to prove I'm not all pro-Nintendo on this) I really loved Twilight Princess until after the Temple of Time. After that, it's run around the map to unlock the next dungeon by moving statues. I still haven't finished Twilight Princess because that blatant and meandering side quest. I'd rather play a shorter game without the fat then a longer game with some filler tossed into it.
I never said I want meaningless side quests.

What I thought you meant, is that you're for games going the route of Brain Age and Wii Sports. Pretty much a simple game, with little to no substantial context.

Games like RE4 are the reason I still play videogames.

[furyk]

Yeah, I didn't mean to say I want nothing but Brain Age. I just want a game I can pick up, play for anywhere between ten minutes to an hour, and be completely satisfied with it. I feel that's the core of the movement of casual games not just sudoku and adding numbers.

[Foolman]

Nope, I looked on vgcharts. I wasn't making ANY of the games up. Seriously, that's just how sickening gaming has become there in Japan, due to the DS popularity.

Like I said on another forum, if PlayStation was over (meaning never seeing another), I'd quit gaming forever, do stuff with friends more, get a girlfriend, etc. Check again. I know VGChartz numbers are usually off by a little bit, but they aren't off enough to make out a poor selling game to be a great selling game. I wasn't talking about the kinds of games on the systems (the DS has games for everyone anyway). There were a ton of Barbie games on the PS2, but the PS2 is a great system.

Going from your list, the only >500k games are:
English Training
Common Sense Training
DS Cuisine

3 with the DS's huge userbase.

DS's million sellers:
Pokemon D/P
New Super Mario Bros
More Brain Training
Animal Crossing
Brain Training
Mario Kart DS
English Training
Nintendogs
Gentle Brain Training
Common Sense Training
Dragon Quest Monsters: Joker
WarioWare
Tamagotchi: Long subtitle
Tetris DS
Love and Berry DS
Super Mario 64 DS
Kirby Squeak Squad
Final Fantasy III

There are 18 DS million sellers and excluding the training games there are 13.

PS2:
DQ8
FFX
FFX-2
FFXII
GT3 A-Spec
DQ5 - Bride of Heaven
Everybody's Golf 4
Everybody's Golf 3
Kingdom Hearts
Shin SanGoku Musou 3 (Dynasty Warriors 3, I think)
Shin SanGoku Musou 2
Winning Eleven 6
Winning Eleven 7
Kingdom Hearts 2
Winning Eleven 8
Onimusha
Onimusha 2 (wow, same amount as Onimusha 1 too)
GT4
SanGoku Musou
Winning Eleven 10
Fist of the North Star Panchiko
Shin Songaku Musou 4
Winning Eleven 9


PS2 has 23 million sellers, counting everything as a "real" game. Plenty of time left for the DS to catch the PS2 in "real" games and it will probably beat PS2's amount of million sellers total very soon. If you want to make a PSP comparison, then I can do that list off the top of my head.

edit: Found a complete list. It's going to take a while.

[sblymnlcrymnl]

if i were a developer in japan...I'd make a brain exercise hentai train-rape dating sim j-rpg for the DS and Wii. like shooting fish in a barrel. They'll never bring that one over here. :cry:

[ratzombie]

You're really grasping at straws, Mana Knight. Non-traditional games exist to attract people who haven't picked up a controller in 15 years, or perhaps not at all. It's purpose is to get people hooked, think of it as the video game industry's "first taste is always free" tactic.

[The Mana Knight]

PS2 has 23 million sellers, counting everything as a "real" game. Plenty of time left for the DS to catch the PS2 in "real" games and it will probably beat PS2's amount of million sellers total very soon. If you want to make a PSP comparison, then I can do that list off the top of my head.Many of the PS2 stuff you listed was before the DS took over. I don't want to argue anymore, but that's all I'm going to say.

[Foolman]

So? I'm comparing how well games are doing on the DS compared to how well they did on the PS2. By the time the DS's lifetime is over, it should be matching or fairly close to that of the PS2. To compare it with the portable space, "real games" are actually showing an improvement. the GBA only had 7 million sellers it's entire lifetime, and that had a huge userbase.

[Dr Mario Kart]

If it makes you feel better, you can always say that giving new people a taste of gaming through Wii is good in that they'll want to "upgrade" to something better.

Its not true, since "something better" never interested them in the first place, but you can at least pretend.

[ratzombie]

If it makes you feel better, you can always say that giving new people a taste of gaming through Wii is good in that they'll want to "upgrade" to something better.

Its not true, since "something better" never interested them in the first place, but you can at least pretend.
But why do they have to upgrade? Your 40 hour "super happy fun princess rescue quest" games will still be available, having "teh casual" games readily available are not going to replace them.

Exactly. If these games didn't exist, those people wouldn't be playing anyway. What's wrong with expanding the market, and appealing to both the "hardcore" and "mainstream" audiences?

[daroga]

Exactly. If these games didn't exist, those people wouldn't be playing anyway. What's wrong with expanding the market, and appealing to both the "hardcore" and "mainstream" audiences?I think the concern of most people that have issues with this is that companies might start seeing a much higher profit marginon the casual stuff compared to the big, epic games. Then, like any business, you want to move to what's bringing in the most cash, whcih means a renewed focus on the causal stuff and letting the bigger games take a backseat.

I can't say that I really see that coming, but each mini game collection that hits the Wii brings me another shred of concern.

[Zen Davis]

Mana, just quit gaming. You're stubborn and not open to other people's thinking. You illogically rationalize things you don't want to believe so that they fit into your box.

[seanr1221]

I think the concern of most people that have issues with this is that companies might start seeing a much higher profit marginon the casual stuff compared to the big, epic games. Then, like any business, you want to move to what's bringing in the most cash, whcih means a renewed focus on the causal stuff and letting the bigger games take a backseat.

I can't say that I really see that coming, but each mini game collection that hits the Wii brings me another shred of concern.

Bingo. Of course we'll always see the big games from Nintendo, but if a 3rd party developer puts out one epic game and one mini-game and the mini-game sells through the roof while the epic one falls flat on its face...well, it's quite obvious what will probably happen next.

[botticus]

Bingo. Of course we'll always see the big games from Nintendo, but if a 3rd party developer puts out one epic game and one mini-game and the mini-game sells through the roof while the epic one falls flat on its face...well, it's quite obvious what will probably happen next.Which won't happen unless the gamer stops buying games. Relative profit will differ, but as long as games are meeting their expected numbers, they won't stop being made. The problem with this generation, where this might seem like a more realistic possibility, is the very high cost of entry on the other systems with probably a higher core gamer ownership. You might see sales of FFXIII flounder on the PS3 (emphasize might, just an example), which some will probably lament as the end of gaming, but really its just the fact that there's a price barrier. The 360 seems to have tempered this somewhat, due to the rabid game-buying owners there.

This is also assuming that other developers will put effort into making good mini-games/non-games and not just putting out "Dogz" and "Horsez" cash-in crapware that never sells as well (but likely doesn't lose them money).

[The Mana Knight]

Bingo. Of course we'll always see the big games from Nintendo, but if a 3rd party developer puts out one epic game and one mini-game and the mini-game sells through the roof while the epic one falls flat on its face...well, it's quite obvious what will probably happen next.Pretty much, and that's why I get worried. If a dev didn't make profit from that epic game, they may just not create another, but who knows.

[seanr1221]

Which won't happen unless the gamer stops buying games. Relative profit will differ, but as long as games are meeting their expected numbers, they won't stop being made. The problem with this generation, where this might seem like a more realistic possibility, is the very high cost of entry on the other systems with probably a higher core gamer ownership. You might see sales of FFXIII flounder on the PS3 (emphasize might, just an example), which some will probably lament as the end of gaming, but really its just the fact that there's a price barrier. The 360 seems to have tempered this somewhat, due to the rabid game-buying owners there.

You make a good point about the price barriers. I guess I was looking at it from an angle of Nintendo game sales almost always overshadowing third party sales.

I really wish we could get an average consumer age for the Wii though. I'm curious to see what it is.

[Foolman]

Pretty much, and that's why I get worried. If a dev didn't make profit from that epic game, they may just not create another, but who knows. This doesn't hold true for every developer though. By the look of it SEEDS/Clover, will continue making games for hardcore gamers, despite now being on their own and having their last two hardcore games fail horribly at retail(*Cough*Daroga, buy Okami now).

Plus, like botticus said, these epic games will only fail if gamers let them fail. Buy and support games for "hardcore" gamers and developers will continue to make them.

[daroga]

(*Cough*Daroga, buy Okami now).I did, but it didn't work. I put it into every CD/DVD drive in my house and nothing would play it!

I need a Wii port since I sold my PS2 before it came out ;)

[The Mana Knight]

(*Cough*Daroga, buy Okami now).Yes, he should. ;) I didn't like any of the Viewtfiul Joe's much (I played the GC versions but bought the PS2 versions), but Okami really was great.

If SEEDs makes another game similar to Okami, I might give it a shot. I know for sure Mikami will never make a game again on a Sony platform though, but I have a 360 (will buy a Wii sometime).
I need a Wii port since I sold my PS2 before it came out ;)I could never live without a PS2.

[Foolman]

I did, but it didn't work. I put it into every CD/DVD drive in my house and nothing would play it!

I need a Wii port since I sold my PS2 before it came out ;)
You should buy another copy. Y'know, just cause.

[daroga]

I could never live without a PS2.As a non-RPG guy I had precious few PS2 exclusives to play or at least try. We Love Katamari was great, Shadow of the Colossus was stunning (it's just going to age terribly... that game needs a PS3 remake ala the RE1 remake on the GC to preserve it), and I got to try Ico (not my thing at all) and give play to the Jak & Daxter and Ratchet & Clank games.

The only regret that I have in selling the PS2 now is Okami, and knowing Capcom I believe it will see daylight again on a system I own this generation. Having owned both a GC and an Xbox at points throughout the last gen meant I played the best versions of all the multi-platform games that interested me. So, I really have no need for a PS2 at this point.You should buy another copy. Y'know, just cause.I'll try. I'll really, really try.

[trq]

I just went through various Japanese sales charts. By the looks of things, if the Wii continues to pull away in Japan, Nintendo might have just killed good gaming in Japan (along with fucking buying Monolith Soft that still pisses me off to this day).

However, if devs start making more of the type of games they make on DS for Wii (instead of the more hardcore, impressive looking games on PS3/360), then good gaming might be doomed, and here's why. Many of the top selling or DS games that have done well are:

If Namco Bandai, Sega, Capcom, etc. start making more of these non-games instead of real games(because they're what sells in Japan over a Mega Man, Phantasy Star, etc.), then Nintendo might have just hurt gaming if the Wii is successful, but that's my opinion. These make dating sims and horse sims seem normal. I don't really want to argue but I hate this crap and don't want to see good devs making this instead of stuff I like in Japan.

This is a pretty good example of what happens when you really just want to reinforce your predetermined conclusions. "Somehow this must be Nintedo's fault. Let me see if I can find evidence that supports that claim." The problem is that you're missing any sense of context, like what the Japanese gaming industry looked like prior to the DS and Wii.

To whit: http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20040121/carless_pfv.htm

Read "On the State of the Japanese Industry" and note the January 2004 date.

Or: http://web-japan.org/trends/lifestyle/lif050222.html

Particularly "Will Handheld Games Revive the Market?" -- from February 2005.

So as much as you'd like to lay "the death of REAL games" at Nintendo's feet, you've got it exactly backwards: the japanese industry was in a pretty significant slump for several years before Nintendo appeared with either the DS or the Wii. The average japanese gamer was choosing DVDs or books or whatever over games, and high-budget traditional titles were underperforming. THEN the "brain training mini-games for grandma" showed up, and began to sell like hotcakes.

[ratzombie]

...which revitalized the selling of "hardcore" games. People who have never played a game are getting into it, as well as those who have given up on them. It's a win-win situation.

[karkyco]

if i were a developer in japan...I'd make a brain exercise hentai train-rape dating sim j-rpg for the DS and Wii. like shooting fish in a barrel.

Huh?

Do you mean a game that trains you how to rape, a 'rape simulator' so to speak, or a game that features rapes on trains, i.e. in subway cars and actual trains?

[Chacrana]

Huh?

Do you mean a game that trains you how to rape, a 'rape simulator' so to speak, or a game that features rapes on trains, i.e. in subway cars and actual trains?

no no, the Japanese are born with the knowledge of how to rape effectively. But the fact of the matter is that 95% of Japanese PC games revolve around rape on trains, in schools, and with your ONIIICHAAAN. The other 5% are tentacle rape or games with complete nonsense titles.

[The Mana Knight]

As a non-RPG guy I had precious few PS2 exclusives to play or at least try. We Love Katamari was great, Shadow of the Colossus was stunning (it's just going to age terribly... that game needs a PS3 remake ala the RE1 remake on the GC to preserve it), and I got to try Ico (not my thing at all) and give play to the Jak & Daxter and Ratchet & Clank games.

The only regret that I have in selling the PS2 now is Okami, and knowing Capcom I believe it will see daylight again on a system I own this generation. Having owned both a GC and an Xbox at points throughout the last gen meant I played the best versions of all the multi-platform games that interested me. So, I really have no need for a PS2 at this point.I'll try. I'll really, really try.All right, I completely understand your view on games than. I'm one of the biggest RPG fanboys around (use to buy almost every RPG release), which is why I greatly favored PlayStation platforms, GBA, SNES, etc. ;)

Speaking of weird Japanese games, I could have sworn there was a weird arcade game there once, where you stick a finger up a butt. :lol:

[trq]

Speaking of weird Japanese games, I could have sworn there was a weird arcade game there once, where you stick a finger up a butt. :lol:

Boon-Ga Boon-Ga, baby.

http://www.wired.com/gaming/gamingreviews/news/2001/11/48438

EDIT: Yikes. At least it's no Chingam.