Homeland Security Dept. and Patriot Act in action...

[jmcc]

Makes me sad that this kind of thing can happen in my country.
http://69.93.170.43/

[redgopher]

Welcome to Bush territory.
Heil Dubya!

[SevereTireDamage]

Amazingly stupid, I feel really sorry for this guy. Is it a wonder that if you're of an ethnic minority descent in this country, you don't trust the police? So, damn, weak.

[robogriff]

Welcome to the New World order. Don't forget your "papers"

[bmulligan]

Welcome to Bush territory.
Heil Dubya!

That better be sarcasm or I may have to lite one upside your head.


It's amazing how most law enforcement officers get off on brandishing their authority and puffing out their chest. That type of alpha dog personality really pisses me off. If this guy were smart, he should have contacted the local paper. They love stuff like this. I'm sure the ACLU would love to take a case like this in federal court too!

[loserboy]

I urge anyone who read this and is as appalled and disgusted as I am to do the one thing you can do...
VOTE.

get your friends to vote
get everyone you know to vote.

it is our best weapon against tyranny, oppression and our ever shrinking freedoms.

[bmulligan]

That only works if you're voting for the right people. If any wisecracker thinks Kerry will be looking out for your civil liberties more than anyone else, I've got news for you...

[willardhaven]

How is living in England? Maybe I'll go there...

[organicow]

That only works if you're voting for the right people. If any wisecracker thinks Kerry will be looking out for your civil liberties more than anyone else, I've got news for you...

Its not that I think that Kerry will personally look out for my civil liberties; in fact, I don't really like Kerry. However, I'm more interested in the types of people he will bring in to replace Ascroft and Rumsfeld; those are the guys who are really interested in restricting speech and civil liberties.

I don't want to see Bush go nearly as much as I want to see most of his cronies go.

/just one man's opinion. :)

[jimbodan]

I've read a lot about stuff like this happening lately, particularly to photographers. Most of the time it's caused by some nosey paranoid old person calling the cops. All these old people have way too much time on their hands and are too damn nosey.

[bmulligan]

I've read a lot about stuff like this happening lately, particularly to photographers. Most of the time it's caused by some nosey paranoid old person calling the cops. All these old people have way too much time on their hands and are too damn nosey.


You got that right. And then top it off with Cops who get a hard-on by screwing with people because they CAN. It's nothing new, though. Cops have always been pricks who'll harass you for no good reason except to amuse themselves. Now they just have another excuse to be intrusive: terrorist threat, it's the new definition of probable cause.

[jimbodan]

I've read a lot about stuff like this happening lately, particularly to photographers. Most of the time it's caused by some nosey paranoid old person calling the cops. All these old people have way too much time on their hands and are too damn nosey.


You got that right. And then top it off with Cops who get a hard-on by screwing with people because they CAN. It's nothing new, though. Cops have always been pricks who'll harass you for no good reason except to amuse themselves. Now they just have another excuse to be intrusive: terrorist threat, it's the new definition of probable cause.

AGREE'D

[bmulligan]

Its not that I think that Kerry will personally look out for my civil liberties; in fact, I don't really like Kerry. However, I'm more interested in the types of people he will bring in to replace Ascroft and Rumsfeld; those are the guys who are really interested in restricting speech and civil liberties.

Actually, I sleep safer at night because of Don Rumsfeld. Sect. of Defense needs to be a hard ass. God help us of Kerry gets elected and puts Carl Levin up for Sect. of Defense. We might as well just give away all our old nukes to the 3d world.

It's Ashcroft that scares the crap out of me. That guy's a freaking Nazi with a bad haricut and without the riding crop.

[Kaijufan]

I feel very sorry for this guy.

[bmulligan]

Yeah, now there are 2 reports with his name and address on it. Everytime he goes somewhere or gets pulled over the cops probably won't be too nice to him.

[organicow]

Actually, I sleep safer at night because of Don Rumsfeld. Sect. of Defense needs to be a hard ass. God help us of Kerry gets elected and puts Carl Levin up for Sect. of Defense. We might as well just give away all our old nukes to the 3d world.

It's Ashcroft that scares the crap out of me. That guy's a freaking Nazi with a bad haricut and without the riding crop.

OK, I'll focus on what we DO agree on ;) - Ashcroft really freaks me out. I think he and his constituents would be more than happy to make everyone in the US read nothing but the bible and listen to no music produced after 1920. I'm sure he'd also prefer that nobody produce any new art, nobody ever express a dissenting opinion, and only be interested in money and professional sports.

...perhaps I'm overstating....but probably not. Maybe I'm just personally bitter because I would guess that, because my wife and I have an Armenian last name, we are likely on some list somewhere. Well, that and since I'm a Government student at a state university and I have purchased books on various political, religious, and economic culture structures (like Socialism, Communism, Capitalism, Marxist Theory, etc etc etc) - don't think I haven't been flagged for those!

[Dragonlordfrodo]

What is he black?

[organicow]

What is he black?

Did you not see the pic of him on the last page? :lol:

[Dragonlordfrodo]

I doubt the story is real. They don't go after blacks in the name of security. They go after Middle Easterns

[CaseyRyback]

Its not that I think that Kerry will personally look out for my civil liberties; in fact, I don't really like Kerry. However, I'm more interested in the types of people he will bring in to replace Ascroft and Rumsfeld; those are the guys who are really interested in restricting speech and civil liberties.

Actually, I sleep safer at night because of Don Rumsfeld. Sect. of Defense needs to be a hard ass. God help us of Kerry gets elected and puts Carl Levin up for Sect. of Defense. We might as well just give away all our old nukes to the 3d world.

It's Ashcroft that scares the crap out of me. That guy's a freaking Nazi with a bad haricut and without the riding crop.

Rummy is a fucking idiot though. Colin Powell tells him before he does something wrong not to do it, and he does it anyway. I mean you think you would listen to Colin Powell when he tells you, you need to deploy more troops than you are going to.

Him along with Ashcroft and Cheney are the primary reasons I am voting aganist Bush.

[Neo]

What a horrible story. Makes me sick.

[redgopher]

Welcome to Bush territory.
Heil Dubya!

That better be sarcasm or I may have to lite one upside your head.


It's amazing how most law enforcement officers get off on brandishing their authority and puffing out their chest. That type of alpha dog personality really pisses me off. If this guy were smart, he should have contacted the local paper. They love stuff like this. I'm sure the ACLU would love to take a case like this in federal court too!

You're pretty smart, aren't ya, slick?

[Dragonlordfrodo]

Well would you rather have this

1 person arrested

or

1,000 more killed in a terrorist attack.

We live in a different time now. We can't have everything so loose like before. This is how 9/11 happened. We were too lax with security. I mean it is sad for the guy, but what other alternative was there??

[x0thedeadzone0x]

Well would you rather have this

1 person arrested

or

1,000 more killed in a terrorist attack.

We live in a different time now. We can't have everything so loose like before. This is how 9/11 happened. We were too lax with security. I mean it is sad for the guy, but what other alternative was there??

The chances of busting this guy though after he had answered all their questions were very tiny, like something else... >.<

[CaseyRyback]

Well would you rather have this

1 person arrested

or

1,000 more killed in a terrorist attack.

We live in a different time now. We can't have everything so loose like before. This is how 9/11 happened. We were too lax with security. I mean it is sad for the guy, but what other alternative was there??

The chances of busting this guy though after he had answered all their questions were very tiny, like something else... >.<


OMG she went there :lol:

[Dragonlordfrodo]

Well do you think that there are only 8 federal agents in the US? They do this all over. They are bound to catch someone. Better safe than sorry.

If I were a fed, and saw a minority taking pictures of an important landmark, I would question them. You don't know if they are a spy or what not.

[organicow]

Well would you rather have this

1 person arrested

or

1,000 more killed in a terrorist attack.

We live in a different time now. We can't have everything so loose like before. This is how 9/11 happened. We were too lax with security. I mean it is sad for the guy, but what other alternative was there??

Come on now, that's something that the Republicans would say to get you to hand over your wallet and submit to a search. Of course, anyone in their right mind woulr rather have one innocent person arrested rather than 1000 people killed; sadly, our world is not that simple. The point of the story, i believe, is that this guy was harrassed eyond reason because he had dark skin. In his picture, he doesn't look black; he looks middle-eastern to me. There are many shades of Arabic decent, not just Osama & Hussien skin tones. The police had every right to politely question him given the nature of some of his subject matter, but it should have been fairly obvious pretty quickly that he was not an islamic (or any other kind)terrorist.

All partisan politics aside, it should be noted that it is certainly nothing new for a law-enforcement official to overstep his/her bounds and abuse their power; but the Patriot Act serves as a 'free card' for a lot of shadiness. "But he looked like he was up to no good, your Honor - I mean, he was holding a knife in the air and looking at me...So what if we were eating steaks in the same restaurant? I felt threatened, so I shot him; I was just trying to make America safer."

[WhipSmartBanky]

Well would you rather have this

1 person arrested

or

1,000 more killed in a terrorist attack.

We live in a different time now. We can't have everything so loose like before. This is how 9/11 happened. We were too lax with security. I mean it is sad for the guy, but what other alternative was there??

As long as it's not you, right? What if it were you being arrested? Assuming you did nothing wrong, you'd be totally understanding and compliant? You'd be sweet as pie and agreeable with the agents? Pfft. Right.

I normally don't get into discussions like this, but I call shenanigans.

[Dragonlordfrodo]

Plus the guy refused to show them his ID. I would think that was pretty suspicious of him.

[organicow]

If I were a fed, and saw a minority taking pictures of an important landmark, I would question them. You don't know if they are a spy or what not.

wow. that makes sense. all non-whites are potential spies.

I'm half Swedish and half Armenian and my complexion is almost like that of your 'average' white guy - could I be a spy? Even though I was born here? hmmmm...

you sir, have just discredited any further discussion by expressing such an absurd, and bigoted, sentiment. :cry:

[Dragonlordfrodo]

No your wrong. I would cooperate. I would do what they told me. I would show them ID. I would let them search me. What have I to hide? This guy clearly had something to hide if he didn't even want to give them his name.

[loserboy]

Dragonlordfrodo wrote:
Well would you rather have this

1 person arrested

or

1,000 more killed in a terrorist attack.

We live in a different time now. We can't have everything so loose like before. This is how 9/11 happened. We were too lax with security. I mean it is sad for the guy, but what other alternative was there??

------

It's not as simple as that though is it? Is it just one person who has been wrongfully detained or is it hundreds or thousands? What about your e-mail communications, should the government be able to search through them in the name of national security? Your mail? You underwear drawer?

Civil liberties are the most important thing we have? Thousands have died to protect those liberties? I remember how after 9/11 whenever anyone wanted to change the way we did things Bush (and just about everyone else) said "Well, then the terrorists have won."

i've got news for you, the more we are willing to give up of our rights and freedoms-even at the risk of lives-the more the terrorists win.

This country has a ridiculous history of panicking when the rest of the world looks at us and wonders. We interned our own citizens Japanese, Germans, Italians during WWII. We are doing it again now.

"Give me liberty, or give me death." Those words are becoming fainter and fainter and are having less and less meaning as we choose to live in fear and sacrifice all that we have always held dear.

The truth of the matter is that regardless of how much snooping and spying the government does it will not stop anyone who is willing to sacrifice their own life. Plain and simple...giving up our liberties is not part of fighting terrorism, it is a way the government can keep us ignorant, afraid and uninformed.

So do I want to see thousands die, a thousand have already died in Iraq, about 900 of them Americans. And this was a war based on lies and deceit, on fear and misguided patriotism. It was not a war that had to do with terrorism or keeping out country free.

So we have already lost another 1,000 people AND given up a huge chunk of our freedom. Looks like a win/win for Bush and his cronies. Keep the fear alive, vote Bush 2004.

[eldad9]

At least he wasn't arrested for wearing anti-bush t-shirts (http://www.wvgazettemail.com/static/stories/2004071346.html).

[trq]

"This country has a ridiculous history of panicking when the rest of the world looks at us and wonders. We interned our own citizens Japanese, Germans, Italians during WWII. We are doing it again now. "

Actually, we only interned the Japanese, which is kind of what adds to the "wrongness." We couldn't even be paranoid across the board -- we just locked up the non-whites.

[organicow]

No your wrong. I would cooperate. I would do what they told me. I would show them ID. I would let them search me. What have I to hide? This guy clearly had something to hide if he didn't even want to give them his name.

I don't want to give YOU my name - does that mean I have something to hide? NO. I just don't feel that I owe you the effort of identifying myself to you. Why? Because I've done nothing wrong, and I don't know you...just like this photographer didn't know the law enforcers.

eldad9 - If it were up to DragonLord, you WOULD be arrested for wearing an anti-bush shirt.

[eldad9]

'Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin.

[Dragonlordfrodo]

Dragonlordfrodo wrote:
Well would you rather have this

1 person arrested

or

1,000 more killed in a terrorist attack.

We live in a different time now. We can't have everything so loose like before. This is how 9/11 happened. We were too lax with security. I mean it is sad for the guy, but what other alternative was there??

------

It's not as simple as that though is it? Is it just one person who has been wrongfully detained or is it hundreds or thousands? What about your e-mail communications, should the government be able to search through them in the name of national security? Your mail? You underwear drawer?

Civil liberties are the most important thing we have? Thousands have died to protect those liberties? I remember how after 9/11 whenever anyone wanted to change the way we did things Bush (and just about everyone else) said "Well, then the terrorists have won."

i've got news for you, the more we are willing to give up of our rights and freedoms-even at the risk of lives-the more the terrorists win.

This country has a ridiculous history of panicking when the rest of the world looks at us and wonders. We interned our own citizens Japanese, Germans, Italians during WWII. We are doing it again now.

"Give me liberty, or give me death." Those words are becoming fainter and fainter and are having less and less meaning as we choose to live in fear and sacrifice all that we have always held dear.

The truth of the matter is that regardless of how much snooping and spying the government does it will not stop anyone who is willing to sacrifice their own life. Plain and simple...giving up our liberties is not part of fighting terrorism, it is a way the government can keep us ignorant, afraid and uninformed.

So do I want to see thousands die, a thousand have already died in Iraq, about 900 of them Americans. And this was a war based on lies and deceit, on fear and misguided patriotism. It was not a war that had to do with terrorism or keeping out country free.

So we have already lost another 1,000 people AND given up a huge chunk of our freedom. Looks like a win/win for Bush and his cronies. Keep the fear alive, vote Bush 2004.

Yes the Government should be able to look through your emails. What have you got to hide? If you aren't hiding anything, why would you care.

We have never been free to blow up buildings in the name of imaginary allah. This guy was clearly doing something to attract the attention of the feds. And considering he is using a fake name (I doubt any Middle easterner has the name Ian Spiers), not showing ID, AND the fact that he himself wrote that web page (He may have been leaving out huge parts of the story, to make himself look more innocent), I don't think anyone should be defending the man.

About the Iraq war. Are you glad saddam is out of power? So what if we didn't find WMDs, we never knew they were there to begin with, the president even said that. Saddam had a deadline to get rid of all WMDs within like 72 hours or they would go to war. Saddam sat back and did nothing. Then the UN weapons inspectors were not allowed were they needed to go. Suspicious? I think so.

Don't get me wrong, I do not like bush in the least bit. But it is because of a totally different issue, or issues he is against. The main one is the whole FCC thing with Howard Stern. Also I don't like how he is against Stem Cell research and Abortion. However there are thing I do agree with him on, including banning of Gay marriage and the war. But I think I am going to vote for Kerry this year. And if Howard Dean was still running, I would vote for him...

[goldengraham]

'Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin.

Wow, that is like the perfect quote.

[Dragonlordfrodo]

Considering that quote is outdated by a good 300 years, I'd say it was perfect too

[bmulligan]

Well would you rather have this

1 person arrested

or

1,000 more killed in a terrorist attack.

We live in a different time now. We can't have everything so loose like before. This is how 9/11 happened. We were too lax with security. I mean it is sad for the guy, but what other alternative was there??


A perfect example of the short-circuit mentality of today. The guy was taking pictures on a tripod for cryin out loud. In a public area where tourists routinely take pictures as evidenced by the plethora of people with cameras in the same area. The guy wasn't lobbing hand grenades into an embankment or carrying gasoline. It's freaking common sense people!! If it were 2:00 in the morning and he were sneaking around it may be suspicious behavior.

The problem here is a bunch of so-called "authorities" who will do anything to validate their existence by harassing anyone and everyone who may not even be remotely suspicious. The more 'work' they create for themselves, the more justified their position is. It's the cornrestone of bureaucracy in any of it's forms. Just think, if there weren't enough suspicious behavior to report, then they'd be out of a job, wouldn't they?

Ever see a 70 year old lady stripped searched in the airport? I have. Random acts of UN-common sense are rampant in the name of counter terrorism. Everyone tries to outdo everyone else by showing how 'aware' they are, therby proving their worth in the american effort for security. I call it the Tattle-Tale mentality. Just like in Communist Russia when citizens would gladly rat on their fellow commrades to get brownie points with the party or the police. With the recent Supreme Court decision requiring us to provide ID to authorities upon demand, I guess we now live in the same atmosphere.

'Scuse me while I get my papers in order; you never know when there will be that knock on the door, right before they bust it in.

[captainfrizo]

I feel sorry for the guy that went through all that.

However, I'm from the Seattle area and I can understand why he was questioned. After 9/11 a lot of Seattle landmarks were under close watch (the Space Needle and Sea Tac Airport come to mind quickly). Fort Lewis was up and running nearly 24/7. I know that sounds like the rest of the nation around that time but Seattle was also undergoing a racial tension.

Some Seattle cops killed a black man and the black community claimed it was racial. For the man's funeral the black community clogged the roadways in and out of Seattle and backed the highways up. This certainly did not help the racial tensions at the time. Within days racial headlines were all over the media with new lawsuits and the works. Seattle has a dark little secret of being fairly racial. Apparantly this has not settled since I left.

When you add up the story - someone taking pictures of public transportation and the person being a minority in that city it isn't a huge shock to me that the incident occured that way. Put what is now considered suspicious activity and the fact that he is a minority together and you'll get situations like this. Racially fuled confrontations with the mask of national secuirity protecting it.

I don't agree with the actions taken by the Seattle police or the federal agents at all. I think it's a shame that the man had to go through all that.

[CaseyRyback]

Screening information is only one step away from censorship. If they view your e-mails, could they not change them or delete them?

With this patiot act they can pretty much spy on you however they want.

People talk about how outlandish the plot of MGS2 is, but 3 years down the road some of the things that happened in the game are seeming to become closer to reality.

[Dragonlordfrodo]

At least he wasn't arrested for wearing anti-bush t-shirts (http://www.wvgazettemail.com/static/stories/2004071346.html).

Those people deserved to be arrested. They had no right to wear those type of shirts there. It is like going to church wearing a Deicide Tshirt (Deicide is a satanic death metal band. The main theme of there lyrics is to bash religion).

Maybe if it were a kerry convention it would be more appropriate. But they were just asking for trouble, and seeing as they are clearly anti bush, they shouldn't have even been at the convention...

[CaseyRyback]

At least he wasn't arrested for wearing anti-bush t-shirts (http://www.wvgazettemail.com/static/stories/2004071346.html).

Those people deserved to be arrested. They had no right to wear those type of shirts there. It is like going to church wearing a Deicide Tshirt (Deicide is a satanic death metal band. The main theme of there lyrics is to bash religion).

Maybe if it were a kerry convention it would be more appropriate. But they were just asking for trouble, and seeing as they are clearly anti bush, they shouldn't have even been at the convention...

Wow I guess someone never heard of the 1st ammendment.

[loserboy]

"This country has a ridiculous history of panicking when the rest of the world looks at us and wonders. We interned our own citizens Japanese, Germans, Italians during WWII. We are doing it again now. "

Actually, we only interned the Japanese, which is kind of what adds to the "wrongness." We couldn't even be paranoid across the board -- we just locked up the non-whites.

ER...you're wrong trq, as much as you want it to be about race...it never is. It's always about fear and ignorance.

http://www.foitimes.com/internment/cc_tx.htm

http://www.foitimes.com/internment/fallon2.htm

http://www.segreta.org/during/internment.html

http://www.cnn.com/US/9709/21/italian.relocation/

So, as I've said, fear ruled then, and fear rules now. This is where we're headed people. Race won't matter, religion won't matter. You give up your freedom and you are telling the government it is okay to take more and more of your rights, until they take you.

[SneakyPenguin]

At least he wasn't arrested for wearing anti-bush t-shirts (http://www.wvgazettemail.com/static/stories/2004071346.html).

Those people deserved to be arrested. They had no right to wear those type of shirts there. It is like going to church wearing a Deicide Tshirt (Deicide is a satanic death metal band. The main theme of there lyrics is to bash religion).

Maybe if it were a kerry convention it would be more appropriate. But they were just asking for trouble, and seeing as they are clearly anti bush, they shouldn't have even been at the convention...

I've listened to Marilyn Manson in church before. I know I shouldn't be allowed, as it is only my fucking RIGHT. God damn you are retarded. alamb to the slaughter, never questioning, willing to give up anything. What they were doing was a little thing called protesting. Peacefully. Now, I may be wrong here, as I am obviously not as wise as Mr. Frodo here, but is that not a constitutional right? Oh wait, that's right, the patriot act pretty much shitted all over that ideal.

[x0thedeadzone0x]

At least he wasn't arrested for wearing anti-bush t-shirts (http://www.wvgazettemail.com/static/stories/2004071346.html).

Those people deserved to be arrested. They had no right to wear those type of shirts there. It is like going to church wearing a Deicide Tshirt (Deicide is a satanic death metal band. The main theme of there lyrics is to bash religion).

Maybe if it were a kerry convention it would be more appropriate. But they were just asking for trouble, and seeing as they are clearly anti bush, they shouldn't have even been at the convention...

Those people DESERVE to be arrested? Are you kidding? We, as free motherfucking citizens of the United States, can do what we want. You are just retarded to think that. Maybe they wanted to EXPRESS THEIR FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

Oh, and as for your prejudice fat ass, you shouldn't be saying that they should ban gay marriage, as that's probably the only chance you've got left, if any at all.

[Dragonlordfrodo]

But it was extremely rude of them. Just like you can't yell fire in a movie theater. Is it my right to say I have a gun in a school. Is it my right to call the president and give him death threats? No it isn't. But according to you it is, because we are protected under the 1st amendment...

[eldad9]

At least he wasn't arrested for wearing anti-bush t-shirts (http://www.wvgazettemail.com/static/stories/2004071346.html).

Those people deserved to be arrested. They had no right to wear those type of shirts there. It is like going to church wearing a Deicide Tshirt (Deicide is a satanic death metal band. The main theme of there lyrics is to bash religion).

Maybe if it were a kerry convention it would be more appropriate. But they were just asking for trouble, and seeing as they are clearly anti bush, they shouldn't have even been at the convention...

It wasn't a convention. It was a public appearance of the president.

I guess it's OK to use exercise your right to free speech only if nobody can hear you.

[x0thedeadzone0x]

But it was extremely rude of them. Just like you can't yell fire in a movie theater. Is it my right to say I have a gun in a school. Is it my right to call the president and give him death threats? No it isn't. But according to you it is, because we are protected under the 1st amendment...

Ooh, great examples you use there. Wearing an article of clothing and calling up the president and threatening him to die is much different. Get your damn facts straight before you try to act smart.
With every post, you just get less and less intelligent. Humor me, oh mighty frodo. At least try to sound intelligent for people? I know the exceptionally tiny package beneath your fat belly might be distracting, but go on. You can do it.

[Dragonlordfrodo]

At least he wasn't arrested for wearing anti-bush t-shirts (http://www.wvgazettemail.com/static/stories/2004071346.html).

Those people deserved to be arrested. They had no right to wear those type of shirts there. It is like going to church wearing a Deicide Tshirt (Deicide is a satanic death metal band. The main theme of there lyrics is to bash religion).

Maybe if it were a kerry convention it would be more appropriate. But they were just asking for trouble, and seeing as they are clearly anti bush, they shouldn't have even been at the convention...

Those people DESERVE to be arrested? Are you kidding? We, as free motherfucking citizens of the United States, can do what we want. You are just retarded to think that. Maybe they wanted to EXPRESS THEIR FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

Oh, and as for your prejudice fat ass, you shouldn't be saying that they should ban gay marriage, as that's probably the only chance you've got left, if any at all.

My views on gay marriage have nothing to do with being prejudice. I am very tolerant of other peoples lifestyles. However Marriage was designed because it helps out the community by promoting families. Gay people cannot have families. Why should they get all the benefits of a straight couple, such as tax breaks and what not, when they don't give anything back to the community, such as children?

[SneakyPenguin]

But it was extremely rude of them. Just like you can't yell fire in a movie theater. Is it my right to say I have a gun in a school. Is it my right to call the president and give him death threats? No it isn't. But according to you it is, because we are protected under the 1st amendment...

Ok, first, I have said I had a gun in school(I didn't), my teachers didn't do jack.

Secondly, have you ever read the constitution? You couldn't have, as you are too retarded to read. Here's a thought, get your government-appointed handler who is reading you this site read you that fucking important document before you go shooting your mouth off about shit you don't know.

Our rights, including freedom of speech, only go as far as that they do not infringe on others rights. Calling "FIRE" puts others in danger, infringing on their rightto life. Wearing a fucking t-shirt doesn't hurt anyone. I think this is all just envy, as that couple could easily find a t-shirt that fits, and not have to use a potatoe sack you fat douchebag.

[Dragonlordfrodo]

So should I be able to wear a devil costume or an "I wish I was an atheist" tshirt to a catholic church? No, because it is offensive, just like the bush shirts were offensive for the environment.

[PittsburghAfterDark]

I want to know why the guy can't afford a catchy bash Bush domain and we're stuck with IP numbers.

To all of these people saying we're losing our freedoms, no one cares, the government is ruining our way of life.... grow up. What's the point of having those freedoms if they're used against you? The Supreme Court ruled that if an officer asks for your name you are legally entitled to give it to him/her. This man wasn't arrested, he was asked questions in a very public place. OOOOOH, tEh gUbeRmEnT is teh eViL AnyBodY bUt bU$h!!!1!1!!

He was worried that his neighbors might think he's a DRUG DEALER? OMFG! They might think he's a heroin user, porn reader, chronic masturbator or homosexual too! STFU. Who cares what your neighbors might think?

Our current enemies have something in common. They're militant Islamists. They share many common physical traits with this man. They aren't 20-30 year old Swedish blondes with 38DD's running around car bombing our troops, cutting off contractors heads,taking hostages, flying planes into buildings okay? They have something in common and without describing it.... you know it too. Do I personally care that guy got questioned? Nope.

Hell, in high school we held a picnic to celebrate the end of school. We had coolers, kids had cigatrettes, we were playing frisbee. Two cruisers came by at different times in a public park and saw kids drinking, smoking and playing games. We let them check our coolerf full of tasty sodas they said have a great time and left. OMFG! They questioned us! They did their jobs! F'da police! If they wanted ID from me? Who cares?!?!?

What's the point of having personal liberties if your enemy studies them the way the ACLU has twisted them? What if they have highly educated, trained on American civil rights terrorists? Couldn't happen? These guys are all dead enders? How about Al Qaeda's number two is an Egyptian physician who could have made a six figure income and been a king in his own homeland but gave it up instead? How about Osama who could have lived the life of a millionaire playboy? You don't think they could send teams over here and have a team leader that is a fully trained American lawyer?

You have no idea how educated, motivated, opportunistic and tennacious this enemy is. This partisan bickering and "ABB" crying would come to a screeching HALT like it did on 9/12/01 if something happens again. As it is 96% of this country seems to have gone back to its 9/10/01 Pollyanna view of the world, politics and what's right and wrong. Don't make the mistake because nothing has happened here for three years that we can quit, let up and decide that profiling is wrong.

Can you imagine in hindsight what would have happened if in August of 2001 we had decided that men of Middle Eastern decent could no longer buy one way tickets in cash? Can you imagine the outcry? The complaints? The websites dedicated to pure unadulterated hatred? Can you imagine if 3,000 people didn't die because they showed up to work? Could you imagine an attack that didn't have a $1 trillion echo in our economy? Can you imagine not being able to blame Bush for a "crappy" economy?

Sometimes you people that hate for the sake of hating, blame for the sake of blaming need to realize that just because you personally don't feel like "you're at war" doesn't mean that millions of people don't feel like they're at war with you. Your enemy doesn't care that you're understanding of their faith, sensitive to their civil rights when they're a legal or illegal guest in your country, they don't care that you don't judge them on their appearance. To them, you're their best hope. A tolerant, understanding, non-judgmental populace is their best operating hope. If you happen to be added to the body count in a future operation they will laugh that your own ignorance added to their body count.

Where is your outrage that American's are beheaded, dismembered, dragged behind cars, hung from overpasses? Is it "they shoudln't have been there"? What kind of ignorance is that? Is it "they should have known better"? All of your arguments and misplaced anger remind me of the differences between white on black crime in a white neighborhood as opposed to black on white crime in a black neighborhood.

Guess it's that type of ignorance that's so proudly on display here from the "tolerant" crowd.

[SneakyPenguin]

So should I be able to wear a devil costume or an "I wish I was an atheist" tshirt to a catholic church? No, because it is offensive, just like the bush shirts were offensive for the environment.

Ah, but the thing is, you ARE allowed to wear those, no matter how offensive. Again, release your pudgy fingers from the mouse, and read the fucking constitution before you speak. You'll look like less of an ass then.

[loserboy]

I give a shit about the enemy and what the enemy wants and what the enemy uses. i don't care if they study the ACLU, the U.S. legal system, flight patterns of USAir. I don't care. You see, the enemy isn't the terrorists. The enemy is fear. The terrorists want us to act like we're scared shitless and they want us to change our way of life.

Guess what. We have. The government has more power to snoop on us, investigate us, and examine us...and the best part is...they don't even have to tell us they're doing it. They can read your e-mails, tap your phone, and you may never know about it.

Mmmm...mmmm...good...what democracy, what freedom!

What makes us bigger than the enemy is the fact that we DO care in spite of the fact that they may not care. You wrote: " A tolerant, understanding, non-judgmental populace is their best operating hope." That's wrong. Their best operating hope is a country that is panicked, afraid, and willing to sacrifice the foundations of our liberty.

Go ahead question your neighbor...rat him and his commie ass out.

Go on, call the Feds....that fukin kid looks suspicious with that towel on his head...freakin weirdo.

Suddenly the freedoms we hold dear are not so dear.

Additionally, if we truly are so concerned about terrorists, why the hell aren't we bombing the shit out of Saudi Arabia...this is where most of the 9/11 terrorists came from? Why Iraq who had nothing to do with 9/11?

With your 4th paragraph, you seem to approve of racial profiling...I don't have a problem with that. But then we should be able to go into every Chinese restaurant looking for the dogs they cook, every Italian house looking for the mafia don, every Mexican home trying to find the drugs they all sell, every black home looking for the gang members, every German home looking for hiding Nazis, every Irish home looking for belligerent drunks...luckily you live in a country where even opinions as idiotic, ridiculous, and hatefilled as yours are tolerated and allowed to be broadcast over the airwaves NONSTOP by the numerous right wing media outlets in this country. From Fox News to MSNBC to even CNN, from Rush to O'Riley to Hannity...give up your freedom for the good of the country...can't think of anything more dictatorial than that.

Exercise your right to vote...

[Dragonlordfrodo]

I couldn't agree more with pittburgh

[CaseyRyback]

So should I be able to wear a devil costume or an "I wish I was an atheist" tshirt to a catholic church? No, because it is offensive, just like the bush shirts were offensive for the environment.

that is WAAAY different. A church can do whatever it wants, because it is PRIVATE property. When you go to a political rally, most are held in PUBLIC places.

and you cannot yell fire in a movie theater because people could get hurt. You cannot hide behind the first ammendment when others get physically hurt.

[CaseyRyback]

I give a shit about the enemy and what the enemy wants and what the enemy uses. i don't care if they study the ACLU, the U.S. legal system, flight patterns of USAir. I don't care. You see, the enemy isn't the terrorists. The enemy is fear. The terrorists want us to act like we're scared shitless and they want us to change our way of life.

Guess what. We have. The government has more power to snoop on us, investigate us, and examine us...and the best part is...they don't even have to tell us they're doing it. They can read your e-mails, tap your phone, and you may never know about it.

Mmmm...mmmm...good...what democracy, what freedom!

What makes us bigger than the enemy is the fact that we DO care in spite of the fact that they may not care. You wrote: " A tolerant, understanding, non-judgmental populace is their best operating hope." That's wrong. Their best operating hope is a country that is panicked, afraid, and willing to sacrifice the foundations of our liberty.

Go ahead question your neighbor...rat him and his commie ass out.

Go on, call the Feds....that fukin kid looks suspicious with that towel on his head...freakin weirdo.

Suddenly the freedoms we hold dear are not so dear.

Additionally, if we truly are so concerned about terrorists, why the hell aren't we bombing the shit out of Saudi Arabia...this is where most of the 9/11 terrorists came from? Why Iraq who had nothing to do with 9/11?

With your 4th paragraph, you seem to approve of racial profiling...I don't have a problem with that. But then we should be able to go into every Chinese restaurant looking for the dogs they cook, every Italian house looking for the mafia don, every Mexican home trying to find the drugs they all sell, every black home looking for the gang members, every German home looking for hiding Nazis, every Irish home looking for belligerent drunks...luckily you live in a country where even opinions as idiotic, ridiculous, and hatefilled as yours are tolerated and allowed to be broadcast over the airwaves NONSTOP by the numerous right wing media outlets in this country. From Fox News to MSNBC to even CNN, from Rush to O'Riley to Hannity...give up your freedom for the good of the country...can't think of anything more dictatorial than that.

Exercise your right to vote...

:applause:

[eldad9]

that is WAAAY different. A church can do whatever it wants, because it is PRIVATE property. When you go to a political rally, most are held in PUBLIC places.

and you cannot yell fire in a movie theater because people could get hurt. You cannot hide behind the first ammendment when others get physically hurt.

Stop using logic and facts! you're totally messing up his argument!

[CaseyRyback]

that is WAAAY different. A church can do whatever it wants, because it is PRIVATE property. When you go to a political rally, most are held in PUBLIC places.

and you cannot yell fire in a movie theater because people could get hurt. You cannot hide behind the first ammendment when others get physically hurt.

Stop using logic and facts! you're totally messing up his argument!

LOL

[loserboy]

You can't use logic and facts when you are trying to convince people to give up their rights.

You have to use fear and panic; desperation and hate.

You see, when logic and cool-headedness prevail, well then freedom wins...and freedom is the last thing on the current administration's mind...

[Dragonlordfrodo]

You people are hypocrites. You say your freedom of speech is being taken away. Yet you are trying to get me banned from this site, because my views don't reflect yours?? What a load of bullshit

[Dragonlordfrodo]

You can't use logic and facts when you are trying to convince people to give up their rights.

You have to use fear and panic; desperation and hate.

You see, when logic and cool-headedness prevail, well then freedom wins...and freedom is the last thing on the current administration's mind...

You can't just deal with it until november can you?

[Graystone]

just so much messed up stuff under bush's rule he will fall down in november.

[Dragonlordfrodo]

What if I told you the elections were fixed? I firmly believe that they are.

[eldad9]

Well, I wouldn't it be too sure about bush getting elected (I won't say re-elected since he wasn't elected in the first place) since oil prices are going to drop drastically in october, osama bin laden will conveniently be found the same month, and diebold's still allowed to sell voting machines in most states.

"committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next
year." -- Walden O'Dell, CEO of DIebold (which happens to contribute a lot to the prez's favorite political party, and gets a lot of business from government.

You won't even be able to tell how it happened.

At least this time the gov'nr of florida may have to actually let all democrats vote.

[Dragonlordfrodo]

Back to this guy who was harassed by feds. You do realize that he actually wrote that site, right? I wouldn't be surprised if he fudged a couple of facts or even made the entire thing up...

[WhipSmartBanky]

You people are hypocrites. You say your freedom of speech is being taken away. Yet you are trying to get me banned from this site, because my views don't reflect yours?? What a load of bullshit

You dislike Bush because of the censorship of Howard Stern issue, yet you're against the right of someone to wear an anti-Bush t-shirt. You're supportive of racial profiling, and of course you are, because you're Caucasian and not being targeted.

Seems like you're all for taking away certain rights and liberties as long as they don't affect you.

Who's the hypocrite now?

[eldad9]

Dear Dragonlordfrodo,

After reading your blog, I decided arguing with you would be completely pointless.

I will recommend that everybody check out your "my blog" though. It's extremely funny, especially the Linux entry.

[Dragonlordfrodo]

Hey you don't like what is going on in country, either leave the country OR better yet, kill yourself. Remember "Give me liberty or give me death"

[CaseyRyback]

Hey you don't like what is going on in country, either leave the country OR better yet, kill yourself. Remember "Give me liberty or give me death"

Why should people leave? because they do not agree with you?

If people left everytime they did not agree with something, tyranny would rule.

[Dragonlordfrodo]

You people are hypocrites. You say your freedom of speech is being taken away. Yet you are trying to get me banned from this site, because my views don't reflect yours?? What a load of bullshit

You dislike Bush because of the censorship of Howard Stern issue, yet you're against the right of someone to wear an anti-Bush t-shirt. You're supportive of racial profiling, and of course you are, because you're Caucasian and not being targeted.

Seems like you're all for taking away certain rights and liberties as long as they don't affect you.

Who's the hypocrite now?

You need to get off your liberal high horse. Seriiously it isn't healthy.

I don't support racial profiling. It is a fact however that middle easterners have done 9/11. It is a fact that we are at war with middle eastern nations because of 9/11. It is a fact that middle eastern countries have been abducting our troops and chopping their heads off because of allah. So what are we supposed to do? We don't know who is good or bad? Do you realize that they found a terrorist cell right here in buffalo about a year ago? You know what the neighbors said about them? They were very polite. They were good people. See Al qaeda trains these "people" to blend into our society. They train them to be kind and polite. Yet they have an agenda. And that agenda is to bring down the america we love. In my neighborhood, we have a couple of arabian owned businesses. There is a pizzeria owned by middle easterners (Dunno what part they are from, but they are clearly from that area.) we have a gas station run by arabians as well. I am not going to judge them and say they are terrorists. But I don't know that. The people that own the pizzeria brought something new to a predominately white neighborhood, and that is that they not only sell pizzas, wings and subs, but they also sell arabic food as well. And I tried some, it isn't that bad. The gas station people are the only place I can get jolt cola and strawberry daiquiri sobe now a days. The point is, is that we don't know who is who. But we need to be vigilant. I am tired of hearing people say that we can't brand anyone a terrorist, because it would be racist. I would rather see a couple people lose there rights temporarily (They aren't even losing them, they would jjust be questioned, surely what harm would come of that?) than to see another 9/11.

[Methane]

Dragonlordfrodo's chariot awaits...
http://s93057656.onlinehome.us/uploads/ShortBus.jpg

[Dragonlordfrodo]

Wow. You can't even debate without personally attacking me, whether it be about my penis size, or my weight, or my mental illness. It is sad really, and immature.

[Methane]

If it's so sad...why does it make me so happy?

[Dragonlordfrodo]

Also do you even know what harkness career center is? It is a trade school. Where you learn a specific trade. I happened to take Information Technology there. I did an internship as well. You have no idea wnhat you are talking about. You need to grow up

[optimolife]

Actually I think its good what the cops did.

In this day and age we have crazy fuckin terrorists lookin to blow us all the fuck up. You kids are all blind to what is really going on in the world. Cells hiding among us like the 9/11 suspects, who lived 10 minutes from where I worked a few years ago in Ft. Lauderdale, FL.

Two guys working for Iran were just kicked out of the country for taking pictures of buildings and bridges that obviously they wanna blow up, muslims hate us.

This guy is taking pictures of bridges, it raises suspicion, you should be glad the cops are that good that they even got that guy without him knowing.

[bignick]

All these posts were very amusing to read. I can wear what I want, say what I want whenever I want. That is the problem with society today. Everyone wants to take things to extremes and then say 1st amendmet. There is no respect for others. I'm glad that asshat got hounded like he did, Im sure he was being a little shit when the first cop questioned him.

[CaseyRyback]

to me it is not that they checked his ID. It is that they did it repeatedly, after he had gotten permission from the park ranger and the cops already showed up on his doorstep.

[Dragonlordfrodo]

What is the big deal about cops checking someones ID to confirm there identity? This guy is using a fake name. The cops just wanted to see who he really was...

[jmcc]

On a related note: link (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/07/16/national1851EDT0731.DTL)

[wookieballz]

I'm glad that asshat got hounded like he did, Im sure he was being a little shit when the first cop questioned him.

Oh, you're "sure" he was being a "little shit" when the first cop questioned him. Right, because you were there or knew someone that was?

Guess we know who the real asshat is. Here's a hint, big boy: it's the guy who judges someone based on some made-up image of a person he doesn't even know.



The ignorance of some people here is just blinding. I won't deny that we live in tense times...but, for God's sake, times are tense because stupid people are buying into a sense of fear manufactured by the government. When you have to repeatedly accost a student of photography for doing something that dozens of other people are without hindrance, there's someting fundamentally wrong with the system.

Leave it to the truly ignorant and, daresay, stupid to assume it's all just necessary steps in protecting freedoms that are already being denied to people by their own government. Pathetic.

[optimolife]

Wookieballs said:
"Leave it to the truly ignorant and, daresay, stupid to assume it's all just necessary steps in protecting freedoms that are already being denied to people by their own government. Pathetic. "

so now everyone is stupid and ignorant...and you just ragged on bignick saying he's judging people? :roll:

[Dragonlordfrodo]

That guy wrote the webpage himself. You don't know if he twisted some facts to his own liking.

[Dragonlordfrodo]

Wookieballs End yourself! Seriously You don't like the new rules kill yourself. Remember liberty of death.

But what do I expect from a "person" with the name Wookieballs?

[bignick]

That guy wrote the webpage himself. You don't know if he twisted some facts to his own liking.

He obviously did. How many times have you been in a situation with some friends, and then hear them tell the story? What they say is about %80 of the truth.

[evilmregg]

That guy wrote the webpage himself. You don't know if he twisted some facts to his own liking.

He obviously did. How many times have you been in a situation with some friends, and then hear them tell the story? What they say is about %80 of the truth.

Maybe you need to get some better friends. Don't assume that just because you hang out with a bunch of pathologically lying assholes, everyone is a pathologically lying asshole.

[eldad9]

You did see a copy of the police report. Even if you don't believe anything else, the fact that photographing a landmark and jotting notes will bring the police to your doorstep is something you'd expect from soviet russia.

[Pezdro]

Frodo! You're so right. I believe we should profile people who are similar to terrorists who do acts like this (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/dec2003/tex-d09.shtml)
and look like this http://www.mugshots.org/criminals/timothy-mcveigh.jpg. Anyone who looks like these people should be stopped often, questioned about innocent activities, and basically stripped of any rights they have as americans for the betterment of our overall safety.

Oh frodo. That's the guys real name. He's not using a fake name, not all ethnic-looking people have ethnic names. Many members of my family look ambigiously ethnic and we have very diffrent sounding names (Pedro, Farah, Vladimir, Adrian). So please stop saying that, it just makes you look like a racist pompous ass, well so is the rest of your argument.

[Methane]

Also do you even know what harkness career center is? It is a trade school. Where you learn a specific trade. I happened to take Information Technology there. I did an internship as well. You have no idea wnhat you are talking about. You need to grow up
I didn't say anything. YOU have no idea what YOU're talking about.

...and who takes a course on Information Technology?

[bignick]

That guy wrote the webpage himself. You don't know if he twisted some facts to his own liking.

He obviously did. How many times have you been in a situation with some friends, and then hear them tell the story? What they say is about %80 of the truth.

Maybe you need to get some better friends. Don't assume that just because you hang out with a bunch of pathologically lying assholes, everyone is a pathologically lying asshole.

No I dont, thats what happens. They arent trying to do it. During the incident, they think they are right, and when they tell the story, thats how it comes out. That guy was writing about the incident from his point of view.

[Dragonlordfrodo]

Frodo! You're so right. I believe we should profile people who are similar to terrorists who do acts like this (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/dec2003/tex-d09.shtml)
and look like this http://www.mugshots.org/criminals/timothy-mcveigh.jpg. Anyone who looks like these people should be stopped often, questioned about innocent activities, and basically stripped of any rights they have as americans for the betterment of our overall safety.

Oh frodo. That's the guys real name. He's not using a fake name, not all ethnic-looking people have ethnic names. Many members of my family look ambigiously ethnic and we have very diffrent sounding names (Pedro, Farah, Vladimir, Adrian). So please stop saying that, it just makes you look like a racist pompous ass, well so is the rest of your argument.

I don't trust communist news sources

[WhipSmartBanky]

...and who takes a course on Information Technology?

Obviously someone who doesn't understand that Windows programs won't run natively on Linux, without using a compatability layer such as WINE. And even then...WINE won't allow you to run everything...but I digress.

[eldad9]

Oh, while we're on the subject, I want to complain. I filed down my PS copy of metal gear solid to fit into the gamecube, and it still won't run! why did they say metal gear solid runs on the gamecube! and now i cant play it on my playstation either. its a good thing i used a pirated copy and not bought the one signed by Hideo Kojima on ebay for $250. the CEO of metal gear solid should be ashamed, all the other games cost $50 and this costs five times as much? WTF?

[Maynard]

First off let me state that politics probably don't belong on CAG but eh whatever, and don't freaking lecture me about my spelling when i get worked up i type fast and try to correct as many errors as possible and yes this is a HUGE run on sentence eat me :twisted:

I'm glad that this fool got questioned by the police because it means America is doing there fucking jobs. If you think for one moment i'm going to feel bad for this sorry shit your sorely mistaken. Why don't you go tell that story so someone who lost someone in the fucking WTC, oh wait you can tell me because i know someone who was lost in the disaster and if you don't think i look at hindu's and middle eastern decent funny now you're god damn wrong. If i see someone looking at the Sears tower in Chicago, they take a picture, instantly write down notes, then move and take another picture. GOD DAMN RIGHT I CALLED THE COPS BITCH, you can't do shit like that anymore. I don't care if your Black, Brown, Purple, THE TECHNICOLOR FUCKING DREAM COAT, i'm suspicious of anyone. Whomever posted the picture of Timothy Mcveigh what a perfect example, you never know who your talking to or dealing with.

Now to deal with these people (my opinion here) who think that John Kerry is the superman of the fucking election. First off i think its sad that a 350+ LB gorilla like Michael Moore can swing so many youth in America with his propaganda that makes him no better than Bush possibly having bad info about Mass destruction. I saw Farenheit 9/11 and i challenge all of you who saw it to search Michael Moore "farenheit 9/11 fact or fiction" on google and look at a website that actually took all that was said about Michael Moore's propaganda and compared it with HARD evidence of fact. Almost 75% of that movie was false or wasn't the whole story, yet we as Americans are looking for a leader, or we're all just a bunch of sad sheep trying to find someone to give us the answer cause we're too fucking lazy to search for it ourselves. I bet you MONEY that if you're driving downtown Chicago and you see a 14-40 African American male walking down the street and your somewhere you don't know, you lock your fucking doors and get scared maybe a little. Its in our nature that we question things we don't know so if some dumbass is taking pictures of a Bridge, writing down notes, i'm worried no matter what you say to me. People too often forget that 3,000+ people died in the tragedy at the WTC. These Fox news and CNN are nothing more than propaganda also. Lets face it Bush isn't the brightest light bulb in the bunch, has he made mistakes, yes, has he sent us to war against a horrible and brutal dictator that was commited mass genocide practically YES, does he say silly things that don't make sense sometimes yes. I respect him for maybe trying to be a human being that isn't like a GD robot and always has the right thing to say, he makes errors, just like we all do. If you think for one second that John Kerry is going to do this any better you have no clue about politics and don't follow it very closely. Kerry changes his opinion from state to state and he's only saying what he has to, so he can get his foot in the door. Lets face it Kerry is a dumb fucking Asshole with HEINZ's money and 13 estates all worth over 1 million dollars. But he proclaims himself as a Mans man, a BLUE COLLAR WORKERS MAN. THE MAN HAS DONE ANYTHING SERIOUS BESIDES TAKE A SHIT at each state he visits. I attended one of his rallies in IL, then i attened one in IN. HE said TWO DIFFERENT THINGS TO TWO DIFFERENT CROWDS. I'm going to keep our men over there and get the job done to make sure that no harm comes back our way. Go to IN, I'll make sure I get our men home safe and sound as soon as i'm in office, OK kerry wait i thought we're going to keep them there so they keep our homeland safe, but how when your going to pull out before were done. He's a slimeball people, all politicians are. My point is don't let the media, A fat ass, or some dumb "brown" guy taking pictures influence who you vote for, make the decision for yourself, take pride in who you vote for, do it for your reasons not for Michael Moore


thanks for readings Meynerd

[bignick]

You the man Meynerd. I always laugh when peolpe write, well Kerry isnt Bush. ha ha ha.

[wookieballz]

~optimolife

That's not what I said at all. Please read what I said again. Slowly, this time.

~Dragonlordfrodo

Wookieballs End yourself! Seriously You don't like the new rules kill yourself. Remember liberty of death.

Did you happen to have a hand in the translation of the text in Zero Wing? Because that's just barely English, bud.

Contrary to what optimolife thinks, I didn't call everyone stupid and ignorant. But if I had, you'd be making a good case for me with this unintelligible drivel. I can only assume it was meant to be some kind of vitriolic remark.

But what do I expect from a "person" with the name Wookieballs?

:roll:

The only thing funny about that is the fact that you probably thought it was clever when you wrote it.

[Ikohn4ever]

'Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin.

Not to go off on a tangent, but that is an amazin quote. Especially from the time he was living in. Franklin has to be one of the most important Americans of all time. Smart, well versed, an inventor and enjoyed livations, my type of American

[eldad9]

You're right. obviously need to call the police whenever somebody takes pictures and writes notes - which would be only whenever a student gets an outdoor photography assignment. this way we can keep police busy and keep the terrorists safe from them at the same time.

and you're right about michael moore. I saw the movie, considered the facts and opinions, but didn't once think about the fact that he was fat. obviously that invalidates everything he said.

[jmcc]

'Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin.

Not to go off on a tangent, but that is an amazin quote. Especially from the time he was living in. Franklin has to be one of the most important Americans of all time. Smart, well versed, an inventor and enjoyed livations, my type of American

Of course, if he were alive today he'd be alternately vomitting in rage and punching you and anyone else in the area in the crotch after he sees what we've let happen to the country...

[Dragonlordfrodo]

I agree maynard.

However I think bush is an idiot for different reasons. Example I really want to see stem cell research happen. I really want to see abortion not be scrutinized. I want the religious agendas to stop. Gov't and Religion should not mix. However I do agree with bush about some things. One being the war, and the other being gay marriage. I also think the whole FCC thing with Stern is bullshit as well. Howard can't even do his best bits like it's just wrong and farting contests. I will vote for Kerry, because kerry is the lesser of the two evils. However I wish that howard dean would still be running or I would vote for him over kerry. So it is like this Bush < Kerry < Dean

[Tecumseh!]

Yes the Government should be able to look through your emails. What have you got to hide? If you aren't hiding anything, why would you care.

We have never been free to blow up buildings in the name of imaginary allah. This guy was clearly doing something to attract the attention of the feds. And considering he is using a fake name (I doubt any Middle easterner has the name Ian Spiers), not showing ID, AND the fact that he himself wrote that web page (He may have been leaving out huge parts of the story, to make himself look more innocent), I don't think anyone should be defending the man.

About the Iraq war. Are you glad saddam is out of power? So what if we didn't find WMDs, we never knew they were there to begin with, the president even said that. Saddam had a deadline to get rid of all WMDs within like 72 hours or they would go to war. Saddam sat back and did nothing. Then the UN weapons inspectors were not allowed were they needed to go. Suspicious? I think so.

Don't get me wrong, I do not like bush in the least bit. But it is because of a totally different issue, or issues he is against. The main one is the whole FCC thing with Howard Stern. Also I don't like how he is against Stem Cell research and Abortion. However there are thing I do agree with him on, including banning of Gay marriage and the war. But I think I am going to vote for Kerry this year. And if Howard Dean was still running, I would vote for him...


NO, the government should not be able to, at will, look through ANYTHING of yours or mine. Regardless of whether we have anything to hide or not, ALL American citizens are entitled to a right to privacy UNTIL they prove it should be revoked.

With regard to Saddam being out of power, we are no safer now than we were before he was removed. Further, whereas Iraq, for all of its multitude of human rights issues before, was NOT capable of harming the US in the aftermath of the first Gulf war, the country now certainly has become, and will continue to be, a haven for anti-American sentiment and most likely will become the new breeding ground for terrorist activities directed at the US since the previous training ground, Afghanistan, has been essentially cleared out.

While Hussein was in power, the "iron glove" of his dictatorship clearly contained ALL people inside the borders of Iraq. With him removed, the control exhibited over the country before, regardless of how unpleasant, has been irrevocably removed. Also, if we were so concerned with hitting the terrorists where they live, we would have been attacking Saudi Arabia, since 75% of those responsible for the WTC attacks were actually Saudis. Their restrictive, repressive government is friends with ours, however, so that ruled out any chance of any attack there, because ultimately it's all about oil. If it were not, we should've been doing liberation work in North Korea, China, South America and Africa, where rulers and dictatorships have been equally as oppressive and ruthless to their respective populations. NO OIL, in these countries though, so no go. Oh, and by the way, the Shrub, his VP and Rumsfeld ALL said that there were WMD stockpiles in Iraq, and said so unequivocally.

Finally, I'll say this: I'm certain Benjamin Franklin was far more intelligent that you and I both, and he said this:

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Any argument about the right of the Government to breach ANY rights of United States citizens should begin and end with an examination of this statement, and judgement about whether the current administration is worthy of another 4 years determined by whether they have adhered to these words or whether they have chosen to trample them underfoot...

[Maynard]

eldad you argue in a funny way because if you don't agree with what someone says you make fun of them by sarcastically picking on them, which doesn't bother me at all. I just find it very childish and i also view it as a set back for yourself because that's the only thing you can pick out of the paragraph so to make fun of you, you might be one of the few americans using less than 5% of their brains capacity, either that or your a bulging fat ass that takes offense if so stop eating

Love,

MN

[bignick]

I agree maynard.

However I think bush is an idiot for different reasons. Example I really want to see stem cell research happen. I really want to see abortion not be scrutinized. I want the religious agendas to stop. Gov't and Religion should not mix. However I do agree with bush about some things. One being the war, and the other being gay marriage. I also think the whole FCC thing with Stern is bullshit as well. Howard can't even do his best bits like it's just wrong and farting contests. I will vote for Kerry, because kerry is the lesser of the two evils. However I wish that howard dean would still be running or I would vote for him over kerry. So it is like this Bush < Kerry < Dean

Its funny how you say religion and government dont mix, considering Christianity was a huge part of the foundation of this country.

[Dragonlordfrodo]

Damn right the war in Iraq is about oil. You don't like it, don't drive. But I don't see you getting rid of your car, because you are a hypocrite.

Besides why should you care if we at war, you don't have to fight it.

[Ikohn4ever]

BigNick
Its funny how you say religion and government dont mix, considering Christianity was a huge part of the foundation of this country.

slavery had great importance in the economic boom of America. Times change no longer that important anymore

[eldad9]

eldad you argue in a funny way because if you don't agree with what someone says you make fun of them by sarcastically picking on them, which doesn't bother me at all. I just find it very childish and i also view it as a set back for yourself because that's the only thing you can pick out of the paragraph so to make fun of you, you might be one of the few americans using less than 5% of their brains capacity, either that or your a bulging fat ass that takes offense if so stop eating

Love,

MN

I'm 5'11"; I'm at 182 pounds; my ass is my best feature; bite it.

Yes, it was childish, but I was pointing out the childishness in the argument.

[Maynard]

WHY WOULD YOU SAY SOMETHING AS STUPID AS THAT! Why do you think the war in Iraq is about oil, do you have a compound of evidence that would suggest such a silly claim. You do realize that our oil situation has always been the same and hasn't changed in over ten years. Which means that it was the same during *GASP* Bill Clintons term! OH LORD WHAT NOW NOT THE DEMOCRATS TOO, OHHHH WHOA IS ME... ::tears::. The war in Iraq is about freeing the thousands of innocent iraqs whom were brutally beaten/murdered/raped for years because of the way they dressed. Or what they said, if you want i can give you the email of my 50+ friends in Iraq who laugh and fucking HATE whenever they hear someone saying that. Imagine that right now i walked into your room because i disagree with your statement, because i find it uneducated, and i decide to beat you with a stick for 10 minutes. Wouldn't you want someone to come help you? Or would you just rather say "Oh Allah why have you forsaken me, but i really don't want anyone to interject because the "Helpers" are bad bad little people who have Freedom views opposed to my DICTATORS MORALS" Get your head screwed on straight and for christs sake fucking think before you type, i've read everything you keep on posting and it contradicts itself, go buy a home with the moore


meynerd

[Maynard]

eldad you argue in a funny way because if you don't agree with what someone says you make fun of them by sarcastically picking on them, which doesn't bother me at all. I just find it very childish and i also view it as a set back for yourself because that's the only thing you can pick out of the paragraph so to make fun of you, you might be one of the few americans using less than 5% of their brains capacity, either that or your a bulging fat ass that takes offense if so stop eating

Love,

MN

I'm 5'11"; I'm at 182 pounds; my ass is my best feature; bite it.

Yes, it was childish, but I was pointing out the childishness in the argument.
MM tastes ripe, i'm not going to start a flame war but i have to retalliate with force and speed, it's the American way right? But i completely agree that this whole political agenda doesn't belong on cag cause all it does is start flame wars, imagine stick 50+people in a room and say "Say whatever is on your mind about politics and debate" it would be Waco Texas all over...

mn

[Ikohn4ever]

WHY WOULD YOU SAY SOMETHING AS STUPID AS THAT! Why do you think the war in Iraq is about oil, do you have a compound of evidence that would suggest such a silly claim. You do realize that our oil situation has always been the same and hasn't changed in over ten years. Which means that it was the same during *GASP* Bill Clintons term! OH LORD WHAT NOW NOT THE DEMOCRATS TOO, OHHHH WHOA IS ME... ::tears::. The war in Iraq is about freeing the thousands of innocent iraqs whom were brutally beaten/murdered/raped for years because of the way they dressed. Or what they said, if you want i can give you the email of my 50+ friends in Iraq who laugh and shaq-fuing HATE whenever they hear someone saying that. Imagine that right now i walked into your room because i disagree with your statement, because i find it uneducated, and i decide to beat you with a stick for 10 minutes. Wouldn't you want someone to come help you? Or would you just rather say "Oh Allah why have you forsaken me, but i really don't want anyone to interject because the "Helpers" are bad bad little people who have Freedom views opposed to my DICTATORS MORALS" Get your head screwed on straight and for christs sake shaq-fuing think before you type, i've read everything you keep on posting and it contradicts itself, go buy a home with the moore


meynerd

that is really dumb, of course its about oil we dont give a shit about dictators if they are on our side. We like to use smaller countries to our advantage and when we fight the hand that feeds them we attack. Just like....Iraq, yeah we did give them weapons, we wanted Iran taken down so we gave them to saddam. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/atrios/rumsfeld-saddam.jpg

Looks like they are buds, I mean when u give someone an arsenal of weapons u better be able to trust them. There are plenty of people dying of hunger and diseases in the world, which is a lot safer than battling in foreign country, but we dont really dont give a rats ass about those people. We care about middle east and oil, we dont care about Africa and aids.

[loserboy]

Maynard-

I would love to spend hours addressing your post, but I simply don't have the time. As a lifelong Chicagoan, I would like to first say that I do not lock my doors when I'm downtown and see and African American. I'm usually riding the el or the bus with them...and they haven't killed me yet...and I'm 37 years old.

I'm glad you are willing to sacrifice your personal freedoms. But make no mistake, your sacrifice of freedom in no way helps the fight against terrorism. It only helps the terrorists terrorize...

As for the "dumb 'brown'" man...this just goes to show that you would rather judge someone negatively than positively. All because you have chosen a life of fear. A life predicated on lack of knowledge rather than knowledge. A life that assumes the worst rather than the best.

This life you have chosen, your willingness to turn on your countrymen, your willingness to suspiciously look at "brown" men as dumb, your eagerness to choose to sacrifice your freedoms--this is the life the terrorists want you to live.

So Maynard, I will be voting this November, as I have every4th November since 1984. I will be voting Democratic, as I have in every election since 1984.

I am NOT willing to give up my freedom, I am NOT willing to turn on my neighbors for the sake of safety, I am NOT willing to let Bush prop up his cronies and their companies at the expense of me and my children. I am NOT willing to be appeased by a few hundred dollars in tax savings while the country spends, spends, spends money it doesn't have. I am not willing to let Bush suddenly separate himself from the enormous crooks that were his friends a few years ago...like Kennyboy over at Enron.

I will do everything that is within my rights as a U.S. citizin to keep Bush out of office. Our country, but more importantly, our freedom can't afford it....

[Dragonlordfrodo]

You don't like our country and who runs it, then LEAVE! Go to Iraq if it is much safer there. Go on we don't need you here.

[eldad9]

It really does belong in off-topic/non-gaming, which is where it is.

Unless we get a politics board (and maybe a sports board)? Plus, hopefully people get the option to hide posts in particular boards, so those not interested in politics won't see these subjects on the front page.

[loserboy]

Maynard-
If this is the case (protecting the freedom of the innocents), then why aren't we bombing the shit out of Saudi Arabia, North Korea, or China. Why Iraq, and why now?

Those are the questions we should be asking.

Freedom is not easy. People often will choose security over liberty, but the less liberty we have, the less safe we become. This is particulary true in issues of privacy and our right to privacy....

[Maynard]

dude i respect your opinion but don't fucking say that i turned on my country you fuck, i was first in line to sign up for the war and support whatever i had to.


As for the person with the rumsfield picture find me something that wasn't used in farenheit 9/11. There was more to that meeting than you think look it up.

Meynerd

[bignick]

BigNick
Its funny how you say religion and government dont mix, considering Christianity was a huge part of the foundation of this country.

slavery had great importance in the economic boom of America. Times change no longer that important anymore

You cant compare slavery to religion.

[Dragonlordfrodo]

And I am going to say it again. You don't like the Iraq war because it is Oil based, then don't support it by driving. Walk, Bike do whatever, just don't support it by driving. If you can't do that then you have no right to complain about it.

[Ikohn4ever]

You don't like our country and who runs it, then LEAVE! Go to Iraq if it is much safer there. Go on we don't need you here.

First off that is half of your posts leaving it or dying. You really make persuasive arguments. You have no idea about what it is to be an American, being a mindless automaton, is not being an American. Speaking your mind freely, standing up for yourself when you feel bamboozled by your government, those are all American traits. I love my country and would fight to Defend it not launch a strike on another country. Just because I hate our current president does not make me less of an American, just following with your eyes closed and your freedoms taken away is not be an American at all and it makes me sick.

[loserboy]

Dragonlordfrodo-
Using your logic, anytime we disagree with our leaders we should leave the country and live somewhere else...where does that concept actually come from. When you disagreed with your parents did you tell them never to speak to you again?

The problem with society today is exactly that, rather than solve problems, people run away. Divorce at an all time high, instant gratification. Don't like it, leave it...no solutions, only compounded problems.

Here's something you should try out...you don't like it, do something to make it better. Then, instead of a negative on top of a negative, you've got a postive.

Someone says something mean to you, you smile and say good day.

Make the country better, one smile at a time...don't be afraid...don't tell people to run away...

[loserboy]

Why is it that so many Republicans and right wingers are so negative and vitriolic?

Why do they have to resort to insults and scattalogical statements instead of logic and constructive ideas?

What are they afraid of? WHO are they afraid of?

Is freedom so terrible?

[Ikohn4ever]

BigNick
Its funny how you say religion and government dont mix, considering Christianity was a huge part of the foundation of this country.

slavery had great importance in the economic boom of America. Times change no longer that important anymore

You cant compare slavery to religion.

I am just saying they both shaped the America that we have today and if you are goin to talk about the significance of one aspect you cant forget some of the others, even though they arent shining examples of Americana at its best.

[Maynard]

Because the next person i believe we'll go after is Iran because they had more to do with 9/11 than anyone else in my opinion. I wonder though, and i dont mean to this be an ass, I bet you saw Farenhiet 9/11 and thats your poster or agenda of why you hate Bush. Like all the reaons in one 2 hour movie, because it seems that every John Kerry follower has the same view. I also disagree with you that you never would racial profile anyone, i don't believe you for one second that if your daughter/son was walking down the street and another scraggily homeless possibly or dirty person came up to say hi and lean down to talk to her you wouldn't feel a little uneasy? Yeah, yeah you would. You see someone on a plane middle eastern looks suspicious, looking around alot, makes you think twice i bet? Yeah, yeah it would.

so don't lecture me on racial profiling i gaurentee that you have done it once or twice, its my duty as an american to report or be suspicious of anyone doing anything i might find 'fishy' whether he's black, white, chinese, japanese etc. and i'll defend my freedom in america no matter what the cost, just tell me where to aim and shoot. In my personal opinion Kerry will lose this november but it will be close

meynerd

[Dragonlordfrodo]

Yeah what are you doing to make the nation a better place? No you handing out flyers saying vote kerry? No. What about Protesting? Probably not. You are probably just sitting on the internet complianing while nothing gets done

[Maynard]

I'm not being vile! I'm pissed at you saying that I have chosen to turn on my countrymen?!?!?! FUCK YOU, if you look suspicious i'm turning your fucking ass in i don't care who you are that is my point, i don't care about some kid taking photos. I say again when you lose someone in an act such as the WTC let me know cause your opinion will change. I didn't turn on my countrymen, don't threaten my patrioticism, who the hell do you think you are? Take your drama queen sob stories else where, i'm an american, born, raised, and will be forever because it's the god damn best country in the freaking world. Maybe YOU abandoned YOUR countrymen by not helping our armed forces? Tables can be turned fast, ignorance can't


meynerd

[Tecumseh!]

The war in Iraq is about freeing the thousands of innocent iraqs whom were brutally beaten/murdered/raped for years because of the way they dressed. Or what they said, if you want i can give you the email of my 50+ friends in Iraq who laugh and shaq-fuing HATE whenever they hear someone saying that. Imagine that right now i walked into your room because i disagree with your statement, because i find it uneducated, and i decide to beat you with a stick for 10 minutes. Wouldn't you want someone to come help you? Or would you just rather say "Oh Allah why have you forsaken me, but i really don't want anyone to interject because the "Helpers" are bad bad little people who have Freedom views opposed to my DICTATORS MORALS" Get your head screwed on straight and for christs sake shaq-fuing think before you type, i've read everything you keep on posting and it contradicts itself, go buy a home with the moore

meynerd

Bullsh!t. Plain and simple. Those same human rights violations are going AS WE SIT HERE AND TYPE in China, North Korea, several countries in Africa as well as in South America. Where is the rush to get those situations resolved by this administration? Thats right, there isn't any. Right now, North Korea is a real, tangible threat to the safety and security of the United States at least 100 times greater than Iraq. Why aren't we invading there as well, since, you know, they actually HAVE nuclear capabilities and have threatened to use them.

Oh, and by the way, were it not for American citizen discord with governmental policies and the infringement of those policies on the liberties of said citizens, we wouldn't have a United States to live in. How do you suppose we actually came to have a country separate from the rule of the British during the 1700's, anyway? That's right, an uprising of the citizens who thought, correctly, that their interests were not being served adequately by their governing body...

[loserboy]

It is natural to feel uneasy when ANYONE you don't know approaches your children...but do I profile based on race...of course not. Most wacko killers are white men. Serial killers...white men. Kids who go nuts in school...white. So, I don't assume anything about anyone based on race...

I have not seen F9/11 yet...I want to...there are a million other things I can list that show how evil Bush and his buddies are...

Bush lied about WMD.
Bush never apologized to the U.S.
Bush spends our money at a rate that is unbelievable and has made the deficit HUUUUUUGE.
Bush lied before the last election about his arrest record.
Bush wants to take away overtime for 8 million workers.
Bush protects the rich at the expense of the poor.
Rather than my emails...Bush should start taking away people's freedom to carry guns...that's the first freedom he should be looking at...

Would I call the police if a strange man was taking pictures...hell no. Would I tell the stewardess that the man in the turban had a laptop with him...shit no...

That stuff isn't suspicious...it's paranoid and wacko and is a philosophy of fear...again, the terrorists have gotten what they wanted...they managed to take away our freedoms...

[dafoomie]

The war in Iraq is about freeing the thousands of innocent iraqs whom were brutally beaten/murdered/raped for years because of the way they dressed.

Is that what Bush told us before we went to war? Is that the reason why we went in the first place? If that were the reason, why aren't we going into Sudan, where there is a GENOCIDE taking place right now? Before the war, we were told that they had WMD, that they were a clear and present danger to America, and that they were involved with Al Qaeda and 9/11. None of that is true. Its also not a "war for oil", but it was their agenda to invade Iraq since before they took office.


Because the next person i believe we'll go after is Iran because they had more to do with 9/11 than anyone else in my opinion.

The Saudis had more to do with 9/11 than anyone. Most of the hijackers were Saudi. Bin Laden is a Saudi. They were funded with Saudi money. One of the reasons they hate us is because we keep the Saudi regime in power, which is almost as bad as Hussien. They don't just hate us "because of our freedom".


I also disagree with you that you never would racial profile anyone, i don't believe you for one second that if your daughter/son was walking down the street and another scraggily homeless possibly or dirty person came up to say hi and lean down to talk to her you wouldn't feel a little uneasy?

Thats not racial profiling.


You see someone on a plane middle eastern looks suspicious, looking around alot, makes you think twice i bet? Yeah, yeah it would.

If you see anyone on a plane that looks suspicious and looks around a lot, you'd think twice. If I see a middle easterner on a plane, acting normally like anyone else, I don't think twice about it.

[jmcc]

Not being bothered about other citizen's civil rights getting stepped on IS turning on your country. People with such a mindset erode our freedoms and hurt our country more than any terrorist attack ever could. Don't DARE think of yourself as a patriot if you're fine with allowing your fellow American to be treated as the one in this story was. It's unacceptable conduct even if race wasn't involved and the fact that it WAS makes it all the more sickening.

[Dragonlordfrodo]

It is natural to feel uneasy when ANYONE you don't know approaches your children...but do I profile based on race...of course not. Most wacko killers are white men. Serial killers...white men. Kids who go nuts in school...white. So, I don't assume anything about anyone based on race... - Loserboy

Well right there
you are racially profiling. You are saying it isn't because it is about white people? So whites aren't a race??

[magilacudy]

It is natural to feel uneasy when ANYONE you don't know approaches your children...but do I profile based on race...of course not. Most wacko killers are white men. Serial killers...white men. Kids who go nuts in school...white. So, I don't assume anything about anyone based on race... - Loserboy

Well right there
you are racially profiling. You are saying it isn't because it is about white people? So whites aren't a race??

I think he's referring to statistics, in other words, numerical data. Or maybe they don't teach that in Harkness. :roll:

[eldad9]

Its funny how you say religion and government dont mix, considering Christianity was a huge part of the foundation of this country.

Was it now? Or was _FREEDOM_ from religion the basis?

Thomas Jefferson:

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Mineva in the brain of Jupiter."

"Question with boldness the existence of God. I do not believe any of the Christian doctrines. The greatest enemies of Jesus are the doctrines and creeds of the church. It would be more pardonable to believe in no God at all then to blaspheme him by the atrocious writings of the theologians. John Calvin was a demon and malignant spirit."

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythology."

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one he must more approve of the homage of Reason than of blindfolded fear . . . [N]aturally examine, first the religion of your own country. Read the Bible . . . For example, in the book of Joshua we are told the sun stood for several hours . . . it is said that the writer of that book was inspired.
Examine, therefore, candidly, what evidence there is of his having been inspired. The pretension is entitled to . . . inquiry, because millions believe it.
On the other hand . . . it is contrary to the laws of Nature . . . [R]ead the New Testament. It is the history of a personage called Jesus. Keep in your eye the opposite pretensions: 1, Of those who say he was begotten of God, born of a virgin, suspended and reversed the laws of Nature at will, and ascended bodily into heaven; and 2, Of those who say he was a man of illegitimate birth, of a benevolent heart, enthusiastic mind, who wet out with pretensions to divinity; ended in believing them, and was punished capitally for sedition, by being gibbeted, according to the Roman law . . .
Do not be frightened from this inquiry by an fear of consequences. If it ends in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you will feel in its exercise, and the love of others which it will procure you.
If you find reason to believe there is a God, a consciousness that you are acting under his eye, and that he approves you, will be a vast additional incitement; if that Jesus was also a God, you will be comforted by a belief of his aid and love. Your own reason is the only oracle given you by heaven; and you are answerable, not for the rightness, but uprightness, of the decision."

Thomas Paine:

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind."

"The character of Moses is the most horrid tale that can be imagined. Moses was a wretch that committed the most horrible atrocities that can be found in the literature of any nation. 'For Moses said unto them (according to the Bible), kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him, but al the women that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.'
Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare to dishonor my Creator's name by [attaching] it to this filthy book. Men and books lie. Only nature does not lie."

James Madison:

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

"Every new and successful example of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance."

"Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principles of religious freedom? In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the United States forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them, and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does this not involve the principle of a national establishment . . . ?"

John Adams:

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of greed has produced!"

"The 'divinity' of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find Christianity encumbered with."

"The priesthood have, in all nations, monopolized learning, and ever since the Reformation where or when has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate a free inquiry or free thought. The most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahoooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find that you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hands, and fly into your face and eyes."

[Dragonlordfrodo]

If you are going to debate, then do it, without attacking me personally. Lets attack the issue not the person. I have not judged anyone during this whole thing. I have judged certain issues brought up. So please play the issue not the man. They goes for everyone.

[magilacudy]

A couple of random (food for) thoughts:

With all the media coverage possible in this day in age, why haven't we the public been privy to Saddam's inhuman acts, WMDs, etc? The war in Iraq has been compared to WW2 and Vietnam. We have pictures of the concentration camps, and have testimony from the survivors. From Vietnam, we have that haunting footage of the hostage getting shot in the head. What is it exactly are we fighting for?

Liberty and freedom. What does that entail these days - it can't just be the name of a women's basketball team and potato wedges. The majority of us can get by without getting inconvenienced. After all, it just means some extra frisking at the airport if you fly, a little more you have to pay for gas at the pump. Yet for non-caucasians, its becoming a bit more than that.

'Racial profiling' is certainly not a new concept. Yet the more you validate it with rationale of 'common sense' or Patriot Acts, the easier it becomes to erode away the rights of non-white Americans, and eventually all of the country. How eager some people are to give away other people's rights, yet when they are inconvenienced they are the ones bitching the loudest.

People are so anxious to say they'll fight for their country. I want you to think to yourself honestly, don't post some ego boosting drivel on here... honestly think to yourself. A relatively low number of soldiers have died so far, yet that says nothing about injuries. Teens and young adults repeat their mantra of 'life sucks' and they start to believe it. How would you like to live the rest of your life with your legs blown off, or end up with long-term painful side effects such as those who came back from Desert Storm had. Now that would really suck.

I'm surprised no one mentioned McCarthyism, even though Communism was mentioned. Draw your own parallels, this post is long enough as it is.

The most frequent response to Democratic leaning arguments usually mentions F911 or Moore. That does not make one's argument any less valid. Especially if the one making the response hasn't seen it himself.

America - Love it or Leave it, that's what its come down to. There are all these false dichotomies that have been laid down in front of us. Invade Iraq or we'll be killed by WMDs. Give up freedoms or else the terrorists win. You have to agree with the government or you are unpatriotic.

You have to support the 'War on Terror' or else you are unpatriotic. Well, if you take it logically, when will terror end? When all the terrorists are dead? How many countries have terrorists, and why aren't we dealing with them? I haven't heard that answer from anyone, anywhere.

I have nothing against those who agree with Bush, but that saying about taking a walk in other people's shoes comes to mind. Will some individuals' opinions change if the War on Terror extends to pasty white cheapass gamers? I'm normally not pessimistic, but I foresee dark times ahead.

[Dragonlordfrodo]

With all the media coverage possible in this day in age, why haven't we the public been privy to Saddam's inhuman acts, WMDs, etc? The war in Iraq has been compared to WW2 and Vietnam. We have pictures of the concentration camps, and have testimony from the survivors. From Vietnam, we have that haunting footage of the hostage getting shot in the head. What is it exactly are we fighting for?

Apparently you have never seen 9/11, Hostage Beheading, or american corpses being hung on a bridge have you?

[magilacudy]

With all the media coverage possible in this day in age, why haven't we the public been privy to Saddam's inhuman acts, WMDs, etc? The war in Iraq has been compared to WW2 and Vietnam. We have pictures of the concentration camps, and have testimony from the survivors. From Vietnam, we have that haunting footage of the hostage getting shot in the head. What is it exactly are we fighting for?

Apparently you have never seen 9/11, Hostage Beheading, or american corpses being hung on a bridge have you?

I have, but I haven't seen the proof of Hussein being involved with any of those. Also the hostage beheadings and the hangings happened after we invaded Iraq, thus not qualified to be labelled reasons for the invasion.

EDIT'D to include all the points you mentioned.

[Dragonlordfrodo]

Plus Saddam is the modern day hitler. He put his own people in paper shredders and Acid Baths

[goldengraham]

With all the media coverage possible in this day in age, why haven't we the public been privy to Saddam's inhuman acts, WMDs, etc? The war in Iraq has been compared to WW2 and Vietnam. We have pictures of the concentration camps, and have testimony from the survivors. From Vietnam, we have that haunting footage of the hostage getting shot in the head. What is it exactly are we fighting for?

Apparently you have never seen 9/11, Hostage Beheading, or american corpses being hung on a bridge have you?

But what do any of those have to do with going into Iraq? He asked about Saddam's acts, WMD's, things that have not been shown. 9/11 - I have not seen Iraq linked, hostage beheading - after we went into Iraq, american corpses - again, after we were already there. He wants to know why we're there in the first place.

Edit: Damnit, now I look like an idiot repeating things that were said a minute ago. Damn you slow servers!

[Dragonlordfrodo]

With all the media coverage possible in this day in age, why haven't we the public been privy to Saddam's inhuman acts, WMDs, etc? The war in Iraq has been compared to WW2 and Vietnam. We have pictures of the concentration camps, and have testimony from the surv