*MUNCH MUNCH* Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney, OUT NOW! *MUNCH MUNCH*

[Cao Cao]

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/9/2007/11/ace4covercomp.jpg
Release Date: February 19, 2008

At TGS of all places, Capcom debuted the English trailer of Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney (Gyakuten Saiban 4 in Japan). The trailer features Apollo's English Objection!, and some of the English names:
Main Character - Apollo Justice
Assistant - Trucy
Mentor - Kristoph Gavin
Prosecutor - Klavier Gavin
Detective - Ema Skye

Trailer (http://www.gamevideos.com/video/id/14906)
Online Demo (http://www.ace-attorney.com/aj/)

Archive
10/19: New English trailer, gameplay video, and new images surfaced at Capcom's Gamers Day:
Images (http://media.ds.ign.com/media/827/827856/imgs_1.html)
Videos (http://media.ds.ign.com/media/827/827856/vids_1.html)

11/9: The box art and release area has been revealed for the US:
Apollo Justice Courting Nintendo DS In Q1 2008 (http://kotaku.com/gaming/capcom/apollo-justice-courting-nintendo-ds-in-q1-2008-321208.php)

11/24: Apparently, the new issue of Nintendo Power lists Apollo Justice for a February 2008 release date!
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=210256
Non-bonus GameStop link: http://www.gamestop.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=180729

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0006TO2HM/
http://www.gamestop.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=180729

[KingBroly]

You're right, it does sound familiar, but it could just be me. Maybe it's the same guy who did the voice work for the previous 3 games, but in a different pitch.

What kind of name is Trucy? Someone screwed up there. How about Trudy? And why no Ema Skye being shown? I'm insulted all around by this trailer.

[maigoyume]

i demand that they make better names because honestly those names are horrible, i mean apollo? c'mon capcom, you guys can come up with something better than that, and trucy..............need i say more?

[SL4IN]

can't wait for this one. though, it will be different without phoenix as the main character. names don't bother me that much, just as long as the story is good.

[CouRageouS]

This many games in, we should be used to all the weird names. Seriously. Capcom in general uses weird names in their games. See Megaman X series for some of the more strange.

[clockworkgreen]

Calling for them to change the name Apollo Justice, at this point, is like saying you'd rather the sky be polka-dotted.

[Rei no Otaku]

Calling for them to change the name Apollo Justice, at this point, is like saying you'd rather the sky be polka-dotted.
We can still bitch about it though!

Ugh, Apollo Justice? And I'm also saddened by the lack of Ema Skye.

[CocheseUGA]

You're right, it does sound familiar, but it could just be me. Maybe it's the same guy who did the voice work for the previous 3 games, but in a different pitch.

Voice work?

[hootie]

OMFG!


*can't wait*

[Cao Cao]

We can still bitch about it though!

Ugh, Apollo Justice? And I'm also saddened by the lack of Ema Skye.
IIRC, like all of the past PW trailers, this is the original Japanese trailer translated into English. The original trailer was made some time before Ema was revealed as a character in GS4.

[soccerstud652]

Looks like we will have some 3D functionality like case 5 in AA.

[hootie]

Looks like we will have some 3D functionality like case 5 in AA.

And this time it will be in all of the cases! Maybe 3 out of the 4 cases actually, depending on whether Case 1 is a Court-Only turnabout.

[Cao Cao]

Looks like we will have some 3D functionality like case 5 in AA.
Yep. Unlike the PW trilogy (GS1-3), Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney (GS4) was built entirely for the DS, just like the DS-exclusive Case 5 from the first game. You can examine evidence, dust for fingerprints, and use the new system to closely examine a witness, looking for certain things.

I guess the only other important name left to reveal is the new Prosecutor's name. Chances are it will be Klavier Gavin, since the names revealed so far have been the same as the German version.

[utopianmachine]

The trailer didn't interest me that much, aside from making me happy the DS-exclusive elements are returning. Maybe it was Apollo's peacock hair that distracted me, but perhaps moreso, his name. Calling someone Apollo is one thing, but Justice? I suppose I should be used to Capcom's translation team's naming by now, but sheesh.

Even though I've already played through the Japanese Gyakuten Saiban 3 and understand that Phoenix's story arc is over, that doesn't make me miss some of the other characters. I think it was time to move on with Phoenix and his close aquaintances, as most situations had been resolved. Any further character plots would really seem a stretch.

Does anyone know if any of the old characters make cameos? Or if, say, Gumshoe is in this one?

[Kawnhr]

Kristoph is a pretty good name, if you ask me, but Apollo Justice and Trucy annoy the hell out of me. What were they thinking?!

Ah well, I'll buy it anyway...

[Mr. Beef]

The name Kristoph seems to fit the character properly. Seems like a "bad guy" name to me, especially since he tried to set up Phoenix in the first case.

[Cao Cao]

New English trailer, gameplay video, and new images surfaced at Capcom's Gamers Day:
Images (http://media.ds.ign.com/media/827/827856/imgs_1.html)
Videos (http://media.ds.ign.com/media/827/827856/vids_1.html)

To be honest, I don't expect many people to like Klavier Gavin, the prosecutor this time around. Importer impressions pretty much agree on one thing: He's a rock-and-roll bishie through-and-through. However, I'm not sure whether whether to LOL or stand around looking speechless after looking at these English shots of the guy:

http://dsmedia.ign.com/ds/image/article/828/828333/apollo-justice-ace-attorney-20071018094428800.jpg
http://dsmedia.ign.com/ds/image/article/828/828333/apollo-justice-ace-attorney-20071018094430268.jpg
http://dsmedia.ign.com/ds/image/article/828/828333/apollo-justice-ace-attorney-20071018094430643.jpg

Well, at least:
1. They gave him an accent to set him apart from the other prosecutors.
2. There's no recorded dialogue (http://www.audioatrocities.com/games/rad/clip6.mp3)

[Kawnhr]

What happened to the localisation team? They give us two games with great names, then suddenly every name revealed thus far is completely awful (except Kristoph).

[Cao Cao]

What happened to the localisation team? They give us two games with great names, then suddenly every name revealed thus far is completely awful (except Kristoph).
Eh, Klavier isn't such a bad name, and I've gotten used to Apollo Justice (Trucy, I still can't stand).

[maigoyume]

Eh, Klavier isn't such a bad name, and I've gotten used to Apollo Justice (Trucy, I still can't stand).IMHO trucy sounds like an idiotic name , its so ditzy :roll:

[Jayayess1190]

Amazon.com says this game is coming in January.

[SL4IN]

I don't think it's going to come to the states that quick. It would be kick ass if it did, but that soon after PW3? I think it's unlikely.

[spiwak]

I'll be happy only if Mia makes an appearance.

[Cao Cao]

Amazon.com says this game is coming in January.
A date like January 1, 2008 (http://www.amazon.com/Phoenix-Wright-Ace-Attorney-4/dp/B0006TO2HM/) is an obvious placeholder meaning "Sometime in 2008, probably."

[Rei no Otaku]

Usually when you see the first of any month it's a placeholder date.

I'm just happy Ema's back. My favorite character in the series!

[Kawnhr]

I'll be happy only if Mia makes an appearance.
Prepare to be disapointed. None of the Feys make an appearance, thankfully.

[Rei no Otaku]

Awwww. As annoying as Maya could be, she still should have made an appearance.

[Cao Cao]

It's been officially announced for a North American release in "Q1 2008".
http://kotaku.com/gaming/capcom/apollo-justice-courting-nintendo-ds-in-q1-2008-321208.php

[SL4IN]

I can't believe this is coming in january. that just seems too fast to come out already, especially since ace attorny 3 just came out at the end of november. other than that, can't wait!

[pygmy carnotaur]

If it's coming in January that seems early, but it's believable. I mean, 2 & 3 were both released this year. I'm fine with whenever they want to release it since I finished #3 yesterday.

[Rei no Otaku]

I hope it's even half as good as 3 was...

[maigoyume]

I hope it's even half as good as 3 was...3 is hands down one of, if not THE BEST games i have ever played, apollo has his work cut out for him

[Cao Cao]

Allegedly listed for a February 2008 release date in the latest issue of Nintendo Power. It may even be a cover story for the next issue.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=210256

[DiscoDuck8k]

February? Awesome if true.

I still have to finish PW3.

[pygmy carnotaur]

I just got that NP yesterday, so I can confirm it is true. It's listed in there as a February release with a short preview, and the last page of the magazine has a picture of Apollo with mention of full coverage of the game next month.

[Ski Hawk]

Epic bump.

I will definitely be buying this game, although I'm bothered by Apollos body movements during cross examination. It looks so weird.

I personally have no problems with any of the names and Trucy is an awesome name, btw.

I know it's great when good games come out once a year, like Ratchet and Clank, but THREE times a year (technically 13 months) for Phoenix/Apollo? Let's hope Capcom keeps it up.

[soccerstud652]

I don't know about changing the whole main character around...nothing will beat PW with a hot mug of Godot's coffee on his head!

[Veronica Mars]

Hey,
Where should I pre-order this!
I'm having a stroke, because I wanna get a deal on it.

[clockworkgreen]

Hey,
Where should I pre-order this!
I'm having a stroke, because I wanna get a deal on it.

A deal would be 6 months after release when Amazon will have it for $15.

At release, you just missed GameStop overnighting it to you for free.

[Mr. Beef]

As much as I want this game, I can wait for a deal.

[62t]

hope capcom will have another preorder bonus

[maigoyume]

i'd edging towards the japanese LE briefcase bonus, but thats wishful thinking at best :(

[Veronica Mars]

Probably, but never as good as the japanese release.

[mykevermin]

This may be the one of few series (of text-heavy Japanese niche games) where they've exhausted the titles so quickly. By that, I mean that with the release of this game, there's no GS5 just yet, so it's going to be a *long* wait for the next Ace Attorney game - whereas the past few years have been very kind to us with this series.

I'm glad Capcom continued to support the series in the states, and wish that more franchises were treated this way.

Take note, Earthbound-hoarding fuckers in Redmond, WA!

[Dead of Knight]

Take note, Earthbound-hoarding fuckers in Redmond, WA!
:applause::applause::applause:

[botticus]

Take note, Earthbound-hoarding fuckers in Redmond, WA!
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff190/botticus/EarthboundU000.png

(just happen to be playing right now)

[pygmy carnotaur]

Well, Capcom put out a press release saying this one's coming on 2/12. I can't say if I'm happy about that or not, given that it's the same week as both Smash Bros. Brawl & Professor Layton.

[Rei no Otaku]

Same day as Lost Odyssey for me. Doesn't really bother me because my handheld gaming is kept seperate from my console gaming.

[Mr. Beef]

Hey, it IS the same week as Brawl. I think I heard my wallet protest.

[Veronica Mars]

So, Should I Pre-Order, or will there be any deals?

[Scorch]

Demo is up! http://kotaku.com/345349/ace-attorney-for-cheapskates

Flash based demo, so nothing to download.

It's the same demo that was posted many months ago, but this demo's in english. Enjoy.

[jer7583]

the demo is cool

[Cao Cao]

Kristoph's objection voice is um... well... anyone else want to field this one?
Well, we might as well be thankful that... *is shot*

[judyjudyjudy]

hope capcom will have another preorder bonusLooks like we are getting something:

http://gonintendo.com/wp-content/photos/2214959739_4de422e38f.jpg
http://gonintendo.com/?p=34075

[JEKKI]

that looks like a piece of caca -_-....

[Mr. Beef]

Meh, better than nothing, I suppose. Although another plush would be nice.

[mickeyp]

I was playing Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney - Justice for All and all my data got erased. I am so mad, I have to go through the whole first 2 stories again. It is too easy to erase. I can't wait for the new game to come out.

[Mr. Beef]

...How in the hell do you erase your data? I didn't know there was such an option.

[mickeyp]

I don't know! I think I may have hit new game while I was half asleep. Unless something is wrong with my game.

[Mr. Beef]

There probably is something wrong with your game. Hitting "New Game" only allows you to start from the beginning of a case you've already unlocked. I have yet to see a "clear data" option in any of the three games.

[mickeyp]

really, maybe if i hit new game I can go back to where i was

I wish I had posted sooner, I am so mad, I have been going through the whole game again.
I got back to the chapter I was at by going to new game and skippin ahead Wow what a silly mistake I made, wasted my time. Thanks for helping anyway.

[Veronica Mars]

Looks like we are getting something:

http://gonintendo.com/wp-content/photos/2214959739_4de422e38f.jpg
http://gonintendo.com/?p=34075


Oh hell no.
That is some garbage.

[62t]

Looks like we are getting something:

http://gonintendo.com/wp-content/photos/2214959739_4de422e38f.jpg
http://gonintendo.com/?p=34075
thanks. Since i am getting the game on day 1 might as well get something extra

[DarkKnightCecil]

Hey,
better than nothing.
I believe the only AA game to not have a pre-order was the first.
Justice for All had the stylus and Trials and Tribulation had the Phoenix plush.

[mickeyp]

I was wondering if anyone has tried the game Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law? for the psp or wii? Is it like the AA games?

[DarkKnightCecil]

I've heard it's heavily based off AA but it feels like a cheap rip-off.

[Kaijufan]

For some reason I just can't get excited about this game. It's great that a new Ace Attorney game is coming out in a few weeks, but without Phoenix I may just wait for Apollo Justice to go on sale before buying it.

[Doomed]

For some reason I just can't get excited about this game. It's great that a new Ace Attorney game is coming out in a few weeks, but without Phoenix I may just wait for Apollo Justice to go on sale before buying it. Are you sure?Don't ruin the game!Phoenix is still in it.
I'm gonna wait until it's about $15-$20.

[Sharp Katana]

I know ema is in this one but i thought gumshoe was still going to be taking part in GS4

[Rei no Otaku]

From what I hear, Ema takes his place as the detective you deal with.

[Veronica Mars]

I heard no one from the org. cast is there.
Only Ema and PW.

[soccerstud652]

AND PW is not even himself...a fucking card shark...after all he has been through...he plays poker and wears a silly hat.

[62t]

does anyone know what store will be offering the preorder bonus?

[Cao Cao]

I know ema is in this one but i thought gumshoe was still going to be taking part in GS4
Gumshoe supposedly makes an appearance in a flashback late in the game.

Also, an interesting bit of rumor/trivia I heard once, then forgot where I heard it from:
Supposedly, the director's original plan was to make GS4 (Apollo Justice: AA) exist in a mostly-separate storyline with no/few characters from the original GBA games making a reappearance (I'm theorizing that only the case 1-5 characters such as Ema re-appeared in the original plan, along with Gumshoe), but the higher-ups at Capcom were afraid that the series' fans wouldn't accept the new character. So to appease Capcom, the director replaced the "fallen veteran attorney" character with Phoenix mid-development. I don't remember where I read this (Probably a court-records topic), but it seems like a reasonable conclusion that the original plan for GS4 didn't include the PW trilogy characters with Case 5 serving as the first bridge between the PW and AJ storylines, especially when you consider that none of the non-Case 5 characters appear in this game.

[judyjudyjudy]

does anyone know what store will be offering the preorder bonus?According to the Capcom blog (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/793) that's linked in the GoNintendo article, it says Gamestop and the Capcom store. I don't see it mentioned on Gamestop, but it is mentioned in the Capcom store.

I have it preordered at Gamestop... I hope they list it soon.

[Sharp Katana]

According to the Capcom blog (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/793) that's linked in the GoNintendo article, it says Gamestop and the Capcom store. I don't see it mentioned on Gamestop, but it is mentioned in the Capcom store.

I have it preordered at Gamestop... I hope they list it soon.
i put in my pre-order at gamestop and asked the employee if they were getting any extras with the pre-order. She said she didn't know anythign about the bonus and it's not listed on their database. I saw it on capcom's site too but who knows how long they'll take to ship. Hopefully gamestop will have it, otherwise I'm cancelling my order.

[Veronica Mars]

I'm not too excited about the pre-order " bonus."
I can't wait for the game.


Also, none of the GS/EB around know anything about the bonus

[Mr. Beef]

The GS near me didn't know anything about the JFA bonus until the day it came out. So you could probably still get it when it arrives. Or you could "forget" to ask them about it.

[judyjudyjudy]

FYI, the Gamestop website now shows the preorder bonus on the Apollo Justice page.

http://www.gamestop.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=B180729A

My preorder still doesn't show the preorder bonus (and the Apollo Justice link in the order no longer works), so I just emailed them so they can hopefully change it.

[Veronica Mars]

Man.
For some reason I'm mad about it.
I think i'm gonna buy it at BB....

Not worth the hassle, just for a cheap chain.

[Rei no Otaku]

We got the keychains in yesterday. Picked up mine.

[snakelda]

So...is there anything special about the keychain?I'm actually on the second case of Trials and Tribulations and I must say that Godot is rather amusing :)

[Reality's Fringe]

I need this. Come on, tax return.

[Veronica Mars]

We got the keychains in yesterday. Picked up mine.

I don't think they are anything special :/

[Sharp Katana]

ya im actually not hyped up about playing Apollo justice. I'm going to miss the old characters. Can't believe there's no Edgyyy :hot::hot:

[Draekon]

Got the game and played the first case since they're generally short (It was about 1-2 hours). Needless to say I'm pretty satisfied with that first case, but I won't be playing through it terribly quickly. I think they set it up pretty well for me to have it feel like Phoenix Wright as opposed to a completely new Ace Attorney like I originally thought it would feel like. Those who've played the first case should know what I mean.

I enjoyed the random joke references through the first case. Pretty amusing.

[clockworkgreen]

Receive'd! Today via GameStop free overnight deal. Which I thought I'd get yesterday...........oh well.

[Vegan]

I tried buying this at Best Buy, Target, and Gamestop today. Nobody had it!

[Ski Hawk]

I just finished the first case, and I'm shocked. It was AWESOME. Phoenix is even more badass. I can't wait to play the rest of the cases.

[coltcannon]

I hit walmart, circuit city and best buy with no luck. BB still has the date as 2/26.

[clockworkgreen]

Oh, and the keychain is pretty terrible. I wish they would have worked it into being a bottle opener or something. After I play through AA, that'll be in the Ebay auction, too.

[DarkKnightCecil]

I got through the 1st case. It was the best 1st case ever, I'm going to try and beat the 2nd case today...

I love Phoenix in this game! Him in the 1st case is amazing!

[kainzero]

wow you guys serious?

i played through the first case and i thought it was terrible!
how can they change phoenix wright from a silly hardworking dude to some weirdly cold and calculating bum? god. i hope they explain it later.

i still think the music in PW3 is tops for the series so far =)

i wanted the keychain though and my GS ran out. =(

[62t]

I also think this is the best 1st case out of the 4 games

[mykevermin]

I want the keychain to fashion the finger into a bottle opener.

[DarkKnightCecil]

I'm pretty sure there will be more about Pheonix Wright through out the game.

Also does anyone else think that Mr.Hat is freaking genious?
(Just got to Case 2 , Part 2 of first trial day)

[Veronica Mars]

I like Phoenix Wright, and his attitude for some reason.
I think he's smarter then he was before :)

[Strell]

This reminds me. Ordered it from GS.com and I don't think I've gotten a shipping notice. :(

Oh well, time to finish the bonus content of Layton.

Then it's straight to this.

[Mr. Beef]

I'll be picking it up later today. Sucks that I couldn't stop myself from reading the complete spoiler of the first case a few months back, but I think I've forgotten most of it by now, so it should be ok.

[JEKKI]

wow you guys serious?

i played through the first case and i thought it was terrible!
how can they change phoenix wright from a silly hardworking dude to some weirdly cold and calculating bum? god. i hope they explain it later.

i still think the music in PW3 is tops for the series so far =)

i wanted the keychain though and my GS ran out. =(pfffft yeay rite dood... he's older and wiser and shyt.

it's like 17 year old JEKKI vs 23 year old JEKKI

[Mr. Beef]

But does the older JEKKI have the youthful energy and style of the younger JEKKI?

[DarkKnightCecil]

This game definately has some...interesting cases. Especially how the first part of the 2nd case trial ends...

[judyjudyjudy]

This reminds me. Ordered it from GS.com and I don't think I've gotten a shipping notice. :(Did you preorder? I preordered like 2 days before release, and I got an email yesterday saying both the game and preorder bonus shipped Tuesday.

I should be getting it tomorrow. *happiness*

[Strell]

Yeah. Put in the order right after the bonus appeared.

Maybe I just missed the e-mail. No biggie, I'm patient.

[DarkKnightCecil]

Hey, I got a question (Case 3 spoilers ahead):

Is the scene with Gavin and what's her face singing, is that anime, 3-D, or a combination of the two? I was stumped through the entire scene

[kainzero]

pfffft yeay rite dood... he's older and wiser and shyt.

it's like 17 year old JEKKI vs 23 year old JEKKI
he's more like a big cheater who cheats and thinks way ahead of you anime-style.

that ain't cool.
he's not a lovable guy no mo'

i miss my pw3 and my loli-tastic pearl.

[DarkKnightCecil]

I like this new Phoenix way better!
Ema is a little brattier however, I'm probably an hour or so into day one of Case 3.

[Keiotic]

I'm on the panty case now, and so far I'm enjoying it. Not too sure why most people who have already played this game, dislike it, but I'm guessing it lacks a majority of the older characters who made the series what it is. But I'm hoping the game will continue to be as good as what it's displayed atm.

Damn I miss Edgeworth :-(


Btw, the part in the first case where you sense Olga is lying and the screen goes all funny, anyone else get startled? It caught me by surprise lol

[kainzero]

I'm on the panty case now, and so far I'm enjoying it. Not too sure why most people who have already played this game, dislike it, but I'm guessing it lacks a majority of the older characters who made the series what it is. But I'm hoping the game will continue to be as good as what it's displayed atm.


Btw, the part in the first case where you sense Olga is lying and the screen goes all funny, anyone else get startled? It caught me by surprise lol
I can't say I dislike it. I actually think Case 2 is fun, although it is kinda easy.

I just don't like what they did in Case 1...
...messing up the memory of PW like that. Man. And random murderer turns out to be your boss? What the hell? He coulda testified saying he was nowhere close, but he had to say he watched through the window. Why the hell would you do that? It just seemed too ridiculous for me, but maybe it'll come together in "THAT" incident 7 years ago. Typical JPN story telling... =)

As for your spoiler... that's why you read the manual! =P

[DarkKnightCecil]

Just finished Day 1 of court for Case 3.
Already about 3 or 4 twists.
Aye-yi-yi!
:D

[Keiotic]

As for your spoiler... that's why you read the manual! =P

I browse through the manuals, but I don't really study them ;)

Brb, gotta locate these panties ;)

[Cao Cao]

Hmm... Finished the game today. I enjoyed the enhanced character designs, animation, and music. The touch-screen integrations also worked well when they were around. Apollo is also a pretty good protaganist, certainly had no complaints about him. Same goes for Trucy, who is a good source of humor, along with Phoenix, during the investigation sequences. I had quite a few gripes with the final case though. Obviously, major spoilers ahead.
- To be honest, it was probably the lamest final case in the entire series thus far. It starts off as pretty interesting, but bad signs start to surface after the first trial ends, where the story goes into a flashback to the case where Phoenix lost his badge. The actual problems don't start until after the flashback case, when things start to get really bizarre. This part basically ruined the momentum that the case had going. Why? For anyone who has ever watched Gundam Seed Destiny, remember the ending, and the biggest complaint about it? Same deal here with this game's ending.
- It is at this bizzare point where I felt that the Logic Editor must have taken a vacation, and as you play through this segment, you'll clearly see why by the time that the segment ends. During the entire segment, you play as past and present Phoenix, who is essentially showing the connection between Phoenix's current situation and the after-math of the fateful trial, while revealing some twists along the way. Apollo, along with the touch-screen functionality (And side characters such as Ema), is effectively relegated to the silent sidelines until this section is over.
- When you finally play as Apollo again, it is incredibly brief, only for a Perceive segment and a few pieces of evidence. You also get to find out that you are able to participate in the much-touted "Jurist System," only to find that it's just an anti-climatic "Would you like to win the game? Yes/No" choice. Seriously, there is no thought required in this scene, just press the obviously correct button and get the good ending. As a result, it feels like the entire ending segments of the game were... rushed. Apollo doesn't get the requisite climatic courtroom showdown after doing the necessary footwork. Instead, Phoenix takes most of the shine away in his bizarre section, leaving Apollo with simply tying up the obvious loose ends. And to top it off, the final villain's motivations are pretty lame "GRRR, THE CLIENT CHOSE WRIGHT OVER ME, THEY BOTH DESERVE DEATH!" In the end, I found myself enjoying cases 2 and 3 of this game far more than case 4. Case 4 just gave me the old "That's It?" feeling of a poor ending.

I also had some miscellaneous gripes about the game:
- Honestly, the prosecutor in this game, Klavier Gavin, may have nice animations and a good theme song, but he is perhaps the lamest prosecutor in the series as both a character and a rival. As I stated long ago in this topic, he's just a rock star bishie through-and-through, and playing through this game pretty much proves it. I felt no courtroom tension between him and Apollo, unlike the tension felt between Phoenix and his rivals (Edgeworth, Manfred, Franziska, and Godot). He has no interesting quirks, outside of being a rock star and a prosecutor, which means that he doesn't come with a mysterious past nor does he use any questionable methods (Other than, "Oh yeah, did I forget to mention this evidence?"). In court, he spends most of the time verbally ridiculing Apollo whenever he gets the chance. His character development is pretty much flatlined from the beginning, where he states to Apollo that all he cares about is "Finding the truth!" Thus, he ends up guiding Apollo through points in the trial when Apollo is confused. And by the end of the game, he still has this attitude, considering Apollo as a friendly rival; nothing has really changed. There's not even a climatic tag-team against the final villain. Like I said, flatlined. Hopefully, the prosecutor for the next game will be more interesting.

- I also did not like the low occurrences of touchscreen interaction. I enjoyed Case 5 of the first game due to the way it combined fingerprinting, blood tests, and security camera footage with the plot of the case. In this game, you'll generally have about one or two unique touchscreen segment per case, but for the most part, you'll only see a segment for one case and never see it again in any of the other cases. Even fingerprinting is limited to one case.

- Remember how in the first three games, when you beat a case, it shows the appropriate character/episode art in the background at the select episode screen? Not anymore in this game. Even after you beat a case, it still shows the generic courtroom background.

- Overall, this game, despite having much better music and graphics, is somewhat of a step back story-wise, especially after the amazing story-telling in the fifth case of the first game, and most of the cases in the third game. The ending segments and over-arching plot felt rushed, the touch-screen implementation was too sparse, serving more as samples in the game instead of reoccurring gameplay conventions. To reiterate, I enjoyed Apollo as a protagonist, he is a suitable replacement for Phoenix (Unlike, say, Raiden for Snake). Hopefully he'll get a better rival and a proper climatic showdown in the next game. Plus, it would be nice to see them work on a certain late-game system, giving it an actual use next time.

[DarkKnightCecil]

I fully agree about the lack of the after-case art. I was a nice little bonus.

However, I think the main reason a lot of people don't like this game is the lack of characters they know. I think when AA5 comes out (and yes, it is announced as of May 2007) people will like that more.

Think about AA1 (minus Case 5) when it was on GBA, there isn't much character development in the AA1 cases that were in the original game. If AJ becomes a trilogy like Phoenix, than here is the way it'll probably look (if it follows the original trilogy):
Game 1: Introduction to the characters with a couple of major "suprises"
Game 2: Character Development
Game 3: Wrap-Up

If you look at Justice for All, it really helped the cast development, even though the majority of the cases (minus Case 4) were lacking.

[kainzero]

I can't read your spoiler since I'm not finished yet, but I was pissed off at Case 3. A little science goes a long way:

Look how small that kid was. If he shot that dude in the shoulder, the bullet holes would be in the ceiling, not the opposing wall. Come on now!
I was also confused how that singer chick could tell you were holding the brooch when you showed it to her.

Or how about Case 2?

Why the hell do you have to prove that he didn't take the car? The fact is, he DID take the cart! Didn't they use this defense in another PW game?

I am enjoying the game though, even if the puzzles are frustrating. The addition of more varied crime-solving tools is definitely welcome and it helps to establish different angles for the various cases.

As for the new characters, so far, they're alright. Apollo and Trucy are pretty much carbon copies of old Phoenix and Maya so it's all good.

[clockworkgreen]

Since it seems the old characters aren't actually removed from the game into Case 2, I don't think they're quite missed yet. Can't miss you if you never leave.

[DarkKnightCecil]

The majority of them are
...until case 4

[Chibi_Kaji]

I'm in the 3rd case and I have to say, I like Ema alot more then Gumshoe.

[JEKKI]

But does the older JEKKI have the youthful energy and style of the younger JEKKI?yo man, old JEKKI gets down like the 2nd case of Apollo Justice...

u kno what I mean?!?!

it's like ugh ugh! I aint sayin she a gold digger...

but uhh! she aint messin with no broke.. broke... broke...

ugh!

get down girl go yeay get down! ugh!

get down girl go yeay get down! ugh!

I tell u, that's the skill!! the skill, wisdom, and experience!

and the energy and style too!!

[Veronica Mars]

yo man, old JEKKI gets down like the 2nd case of Apollo Justice...

u kno what I mean?!?!

it's like ugh ugh! I aint sayin she a gold digger...

but uhh! she aint messin with no broke.. broke... broke...

ugh!

get down girl go yeay get down! ugh!

get down girl go yeay get down! ugh!

I tell u, that's the skill!! the skill, wisdom, and experience!

and the energy and style too!!


Thank you.
That explains so much.

[Mr. Beef]

yo man, old JEKKI gets down like the 2nd case of Apollo Justice...

u kno what I mean?!?!

it's like ugh ugh! I aint sayin she a gold digger...

but uhh! she aint messin with no broke.. broke... broke...

ugh!

get down girl go yeay get down! ugh!

get down girl go yeay get down! ugh!

I tell u, that's the skill!! the skill, wisdom, and experience!

and the energy and style too!!
Aw yeah, there's the JEKKI we all know and love. :bouncy:
My apologies for ever doubting you, mang.

[Bazz]

Wow, Capcom done it again. This game is truely another beautiful game to add to the series. I am loving it so much.

[Rei no Otaku]

This thread title inspired my avatar.

[kainzero]

Mmm, I just finished the game. The ending was pretty sick. I'll break it down, how I feel about the game.

Case 1:

Case 1: First of all, too much "WTF" moments. How the hell are you gonna incriminate your boss? I make it a point to massively dislike anime / videogames in which games make you think "WTF is going on" and then explain it later. I really didn't like it. However, what I did like is that it was more of a case than in the previous games when things seemed mega obvious.


Case 2:

Starting this case off felt really long-winded and chore-filled. Find my panties, who ran over Phoenix, etc. I also got stuck in the investigation when you had to re-examine the trashcan to get the slippers. But I really like how this case finished, it was a good case and fun to string together.


Case 3:

Had a lot of trouble getting into this case too, although I started liking that Klavier theme song. I still resent how you couldn't prove that kid was guilty based on shooting angles, but I did like the usage of the mixer and videotape to find out a lot of the evidence, it was a really clever way of revealing that magic trick. And I thought the actual video looked pretty cool too =P Unlike the 1st Case, I welcomed the surprise suspect, but I didn't really feel too good about the defendant... hard to really care about who your defending. Also, I didn't like how it didn't have a typical run-through of how the case was really played out, and plus, when did the defendant meet the real killer?


Case 4:

It had a real sick beginning to it. And I loved that flashback + investigation part... but the investigation was way too revealing. The trial continuation was so anti-climactic that it almost felt like a procedural run through. But it was still nice to see that Phoenix wasn't that wiener character in anime that knows everything in advance, but actually still needs to think and stuff, and how much work he put into it. Jurist system was kinda a cop out... why the hell was the judge declaring victory here and there when he couldn't? They need to take that out. And I don't know why they called them Jurists and not Jurors.


Characters and other details:

Apollo was pretty much Phoenix Wright. Their personalities did not vary in the slightest. Same could be said about Trucy and Maya. Same similar absent-minded personality, except instead of spirit training it was magic training. Real good back story for Apollo and Trucy though, that twist with Lamiroir (or whatever her name is) was sweet and definitely sets up for good sequels.
Klavier... didn't feel any tension anywhere, like Cao Cao said. Especially when he'd pull a 180 and start supporting you. Why? You never really found out. They coulda done a lot more for this especially in Case 4. Although honestly I didn't feel any tension with Godot either, I thought he was just silly until Case 5 of TaT, but at least he was more entertaining than Klavier. Plus I like how he hits his hand on the back wall instead of the desk, I thought that was cool for some reason.
Ema Skye was boring and almost devoid of personality even if she is cute. She was much cooler in AA1 Case 5. Watching her explain and perform the forensics didn't feel as exciting as it did back then either.

In the end, I think it's a worthy successor to the PW series, although it's really hard to top something like TaT and definitely has a lot of potential to it... all depends on where they go in the next AJ. Also, the music kinda grew on me... I thought it sounded pretty bad at first! I especially liked the remixed magatama music in Case 4.

The only things I'd really want in the next game would be:
-A Phoenix Wright that doesn't look so much like a bum
-A case that has the Fey sisters in it. Just one, at least! Even if it's a case 1!

[Strell]

My copy did show up, despite never getting an e-mail about it shipping out. Which I'm not going to complain about, since I love this series and couldn't wait for it to show up. Besides, I've more or less finished Professor Layton, so I need something new.

Went through Case 1. Easily the best first case of all four games (though PW3's is pretty good since it ends up being a precursor to so much of the history of the game's universe and the characters inhabiting it). I was surprised to see it fashioned as a real case as opposed to something so throwaway. I can see why people liked it so much.

Kain's comments are interesting to me, since I think he has some valid points (squished together with some very non-valid ones). The first case is obviously a big departure from the series, partly because it has to be, and partly because the twists just end up making it one. I actually suggest you read this, Kain, as I think you might find it enjoyable (but hey, I could be wrong).

It's been on my mind for a few days now, and I've been thinking a lot about it. This is going to seem like a LOT of over-analyzation, and I readily accept it as such. So unless you want to read a big, LONG and LONGWINDED dissertation about the first case, there's no reason to click on this spoiler. But it's basically this gigantic memory dump of everything I thought of regarding case 1. It's like OCD, alright? Don't be a condescending PITA about it if you don't care, as I'm clearly not writing this for your enjoyment, but anyone else who might be thinking about it.



Yeah, I told you it was long.

So basically the case runs down Phoenix getting indicted for murder, and he slowly begins to defend himself, finally implicating Apollo's boss (and thus, Phoenix's own attorney) and pinning the crime on him. I'm going to skip the hysterics of what happens in the actual courtroom, however. I will say that it makes Phoenix look like even more of a badass than I already thought he was, since now he has this very calm zen-like aura to him, but he still knows how to nail asses to the wall and beat them until candy comes out.

At any rate, the first case is long and bizarre with twists that I've been turning over, because I want to determine the outright plausability of everything happening. When I put it down in a chronological timeline, I'm not so sure it works out. Let's continue.

Shadi was killed between 1:45 - 2:15 AM or so. Having played a little poker myself, let's assume the game might have taken anywhere from one to two hours to reach the situation proposed by the evidence, which is that Phoenix was up some 600-700 bucks or so (I know he had 4K something) after starting at 3500. The original plan by Shadi and Olga was to pin Phoenix with a fake ace after planting a 5 of <3s on him, which would cause Shadi to search him, which would humiliate Phoenix, make Shadi a star, etc etc.

Before all of this happens, Phoenix has dinner with Gavin. Meanwhile, Olga is in place for the scheme with Shadi, having been hired a few days before. I imagine she's put in some time as a dealer in the Hydeout, and Phoenix (I guess) trusts her. So basically, once dinner ends, Gavin leaves, Phoenix plays piano until Shadi challenges him, and the three proceed down into the room. Gavin supposedly has left the place and gone home.

Now the case (just assume we're at the end and we know who the culprit is and everything) really implies a lot of questionable things here. The first is Phoenix and Gavin's dinner - I think maybe they said it lasted almost two hours? But we have no idea when it was. But really this is a small detail, so let's disregard it (for now, anyway).

But I run into another red flag. Gavin left before Shadi showed up (roughly five minutes before). Shadi is a "traveller" and hasn't been around before, but it is implied that maybe this was an old stomping ground of his and that he's come back. Shadi and Gavin haven't ever met before (so says the game), but Phoenix proposes that maybe they could have met during Gavin's leaving. We can even be generous and assume that Shadi might have been asking for Phoenix, and maybe he asked Gavin where "the famed card player" was, or something to that effect (which would be a ploy, of course, since Shadi has planned this out well in advance, which is interesting since that actually lowers the chance that Shadi and Gavin would talk/meet).

Why is all of this important? Because Gavin has no idea, honestly, when they are going to play, how long the game will last, or who will be dealing the cards. He also doesn't have any clue about when the scheme is supposed to go down. Hell, he doesn't know about the scheme! This actually becomes more complicated as we delve further into the timeline of events on the night in question.

So let's move on. Phoenix and Shadi play. Let's say Gavin left around....oh....10-11, and Phoenix was maybe on the piano for half an hour. So they start around 11:30-12:00. They play for roughly 1.5 hours and the questionable hand is dealt. Phoenix recognizes the ploy from the get-go, setting Shadi off, who knocks out Olga.

Another red flag - why in the hell does Phoenix think it's a good idea to leave an unconscoius woman with a guy who just popped her? But let's consider this negligable.

He goes upstairs and calls the police. During this conversation, Gavin must enter into the secret passage, open up the bookcase, slam Shadi in the head with a bottle, steal the Ace of Spades with the blood on it, switch the bottle with the one found in the room already, and leave. Then he has to leave the club and answer the phone call from Phoenix. Remember, Phoenix calls him after discovering the body, so Gavin doesn't have a lot of time to act.

HUGE problems here. HUGE. First, it implies that Gavin knows about all the commotion going on in the room when the fateful hand is played. Now we can be nice and assume he's watching through the window (although I wonder why no one would ever point out there's something watching the game), and thus he knows when everything crazy happens. But that doesn't explain why in the hell he'd be there to begin with - what's he doing back at the club? Well, maybe he came back to watch Phoenix beat Shadi. But does he have any idea how long that might take? Maybe he doesn't, so he's watching the whole time, but this again goes back to the problem of knowing when everything is happening, or even if Phoenix is going to play poker at all that night.

But let's throw all that aside. STILL huge problems abound. Let's say he sees Olga get bonked and figures that Phoenix is going to leave the room to call the police. Now he's got to race up the stairs, make it back down into the passage, and carry out the events described above, which includes the kill, switching evidence, leaving the passage, not getting seen by Phoenix during his re-emergence back onto the ground floor, and then leaving the club and putting enough distance between him and Phoenix such that when he answers the phone, Phoenix won't hear him talk.

But honestly - how long might the phone call to the police take? Even if we're generous and give it 10 minutes, that's still an extremely small window of opportunity.

This doesn't even answer lots of other questions. If we assume Gavin always wanted to frame Phoenix (as a revenge from the problem 7 years ago, which I haven't reached yet in my gameplay, so I hope this isn't answered for me), then he's got to have a LOT of prior knowledge over everything that's supposed to go down tonight. But I'm guessing he doesn't know Olga or Shadi that well, and I've already pointed out a lot of the other issues with his seemingly omniscient knowledge of everything else.

I mean, we can be nice and spot Gavin a little cred here, assuming he has picked this night to frame Phoenix, and has worked out a few details beforehand (using a bottle, for example, since he can imagine Phoenix always having one handy). And let's give it up that he knows about the secret passage, how to open the secret door, etc. And he even knows that killing a card player would be the best COA, since that's the person most likely to be killed by Phoenix, especially if he's had a seven year streak ruined.

But I still have more problems. He goes down and kills Shadi. He then takes the Ace with the blood on it. Wait a minute - just a single drop of blood? I don't know much about head truama, but I'm going to guess that if you got klong'd that hard with a bottle, there'd be a lot more blood than a single drop. As in, I'd assume it would be all over the floor, all over the body, all over the bottle, and possibly on Gavin's clothes.

All of that aside, he has to take the card in order to get rid of the evidence. He switches it out with the blue card. I guess it doesn't matter that he doesn't know whose hand is whose (seriously). He switches out the card with the blood on it in order to eliminate evidence. He also switches out the bottle, turns Shadi around, and exits. He makes the fatal mistake of not checking the colors of the cards, which I guess is plausible since he saw the blue deck on the table and most likely just assumed those were the cards being used.

But it's just...this whole thing reeks of Gavin knowing everything was going to happen. He'd have to have known (at least to an extent) about the scheme to begin with, which implies he knows that Olga was the dealer and possibly in cahoots with Shadi. He'd have to know roughly when the game was taking place. He'd have to know about the failed scheme and react accordingly VERY fast, thinking incredibly quick on his toes to 1) grab a weapon, 2) use the secrete passage, 3) kill Shadi, 4) arrange all the evidence/steal the Ace, and 5) leave the club accordingly.

There's just too much deus ex machine/omniscience in play on the part of Gavin for me to really think this is really all that possible. It's kind of like the fifth case in PW1, where the chief of police murders someone in order to gain leverage over Lana. I don't remember the specifics, but he had to think incredibly quick and put together a lot of conclusions in his head, and all within a few minutes. Basically, both cases imply that the killer understands all these various angles almost instantaneously, and then kills someone in order to cement the conclusions they want. But at least with the PW1 fifth case, it's a little more plausible, since the chief of police is more or less in control of everything, and does it all on the spur of the moment.

This case - for how good it was - is just so haphazardly put together. There's just too much coincidence and being-in-the-right-place-at-the-right-time, with Gavin more or less having a lot of knowledge about what was going on and formulating a sinister plot on the fly. Basically the only way it could work is if we presuppose that Gavin does indeed know all about the scheme beforehand, and just decides that he's going to intervene at some opportune point so that he can kill Shadi and frame Phoenix. That's really the only possible way it all works (since at that point I can throw out all the other wildly nigh-impossible things happening the way they did), since all he'd have to do at that point is be patient.

OR - and this is the "best" answer I could think of - we assume that every night Gavin has dinner with Phoenix, he goes and hides in the secret passage, and just hopes one night he's going to be given a chance to frame Phoenix. This works out pretty well, actually, since he could plan out everything before hand. Again, he could be hiding in it and listen for a good time to strike. He already has a bottle, which he knows will implicate Phoenix. He's probably accounted for the dealer (if there's going to be one), and most likely understands that if he removes incriminating evidence, it would be very hard for anyone else to look like the killer. At least if this is the case, he's always prepared and ready to frame Phoenix, and just waits for the exact perfect moment to do so.

It's just that with the dialogue and notes given, it implies Gavin doesn't know much at all about anything. If he did, then we could be really generous and say he just hid in the passage the whole time, bottle at the ready, and listened carefully for signs of some kind of disturbance/break in action. Hell, maybe he had planned to enter and knock everyone out, kill someone, and then making it look like Phoenix blacked out.

I guess that's all I can say about it for now. I don't know if it makes sense to anyone else, and it's late, so I might have screwed up my explanation. If so, give me a chance to make sure I said everything correctly. This was a long thing to write and I'm almost positive I screwed up some details somewhere.

[DarkKnightCecil]

I think the reason Klavier turned on Kristoph is because, unlike the prosecutors from the original trilogy, he wants justice more than a 1+ on his winning record. In Case 3 he did the same thing, why would he turn on a person whom is not only his friend but a fellow bandmate? It was because he wants the truth, not to win. Hence the reason I like Klavier way more than any other prosecutor thus far.

[kainzero]

Kain's comments are interesting to me, since I think he has some valid points (squished together with some very non-valid ones). The first case is obviously a big departure from the series, partly because it has to be, and partly because the twists just end up making it one. I actually suggest you read this, Kain, as I think you might find it enjoyable (but hey, I could be wrong).
That's a little bit too much analysis for not finishing the game =)

Like I says~
"I make it a point to massively dislike anime / videogames in which games make you think "WTF is going on" and then explain it later."

Case 1-only spoiler:
I thought it was fairly obvious that they left out a LOT of details in case 1. They even left out motive! And as such, I got the premonition that they would explain it later.

In response to Cecil:
Perhaps he is looking for justice, but that fact that he is makes him a really weak prosecutor! I think, given the circumstances of PW2 Case 5 with Edgeworth, we should be inclined that prosecutors should seek out the truth. Just as the game leads you to believe that you gotta "believe in your client even when it's bad", similarly, a prosecutor should believe in his detectives when they make the arrest!
And especially with Klavier, you never knew who he was pulling for. One moment he's asking you to press your witness and clearly panicking for not knowing the truth, then he turns it around on you. Then when you object he starts pulling for you again? Ugh.

[62t]

I guess the problems with the first case is that they dont want it to be too hard as it is the first case.

[Veronica Mars]

Question:

Phoenix says a genius was killed in that case 7 years ago. Is that Miles Edgeworth?

[DarkKnightCecil]

In response to Veronica:
You'll find out all. Just be patient and play the game.

In response to Kain:
I think it really separates Klavier from all the other prosecutors in the series. Also, it also shows how naive he is since he is so young, as is present in the flashback case. IT also shows that he isn't completely comfortable with himself that he can't even trust his own instincts. I think that part of him will play a huge role in the next game.

[mickeyp]

Best buy would not sell it to me they said it does not come out till the 26th?

[pygmy carnotaur]

I've just finished the first 3 cases so far, but a few little things bothered me on cases 2 & 3(along with most of the stuff that's already been mentioned on case 1 though I assume case 4 will clear some of that up).

Case 2
Why was Alita wearing slippers from the clinic? Gavin gave an explanation for why her regular shoes may have been left there, but that was before it was shown that she was unconcious. I can't see any reason why Dr. Meraktis would put slippers on the "body" if he just planned to dump her in the river anyway.

Case 3
Shouldn't it have been important that Deryan was the only person who would've recognized the Interpol ID # for what it was? I suppose the arguement could be made that whatever the victim was writing, the murderer would've covered it up even if he didn't understand it. Also, when/how did Machi & Deryan work out this whole smuggling thing or ever meet, especially given that Machi barely speaks English.

[Mr. Beef]

Pygmy, regarding Case 2: Typically, japanese culture has people taking off their shoes and putting on slippers before entering buildings.

[pygmy carnotaur]

I understand that, but... why did he put slippers on her "body" before attempting to dispose of it? He didn't need to do that at all. I guess we are to assume he felt the need to put her shoes back on her body, and in doing so put the wrong ones on her? That seems unlikely, but it's all I can come up with.

I thought it seemed odd because it never came up during the trial, and the only purpose it served was a way for Apollo to gain access to the clinic. I suppose it's lucky Dr. Meraktis did put those slippers on her, or else his murderer might've gotten off free.

[Mr. Beef]

He never put the slippers on her. She was "killed" with them still on her, and he never bothered to take them off.

[pygmy carnotaur]

Yeah, nevermind I was just being stupid.

Case 4 is good so far, but I'm barely getting started(just finished the first investigation section). I can say I'm very interested in figuring out where they're going with this one though, given how that part ended...


Is it just me, or are the prosecuters too soft now? It seems like in every game, the prosecution just keeps getting weaker and weaker. In PW1, Edgeworth was at least a worthy adversary, and Manfred von Karma is still the scariest opponent of this entire series. Since then it's been downhill. Franziska was ok, but not really anywhere near the level of her dad. Godot was an awesome character, but pretty terrible at being a prosecuter(for obvious reasons).

And now we have Klavier, who is even less effective than Godot was at the job. By which I mean, not only does he have a difficult time ever pinning the crime on your client, he also tends to help you and doesn't seem to be aggressive towards the defense at all.

[Doomed]

Is it just me, or are the prosecuters too soft now? It seems like in every game, the prosecution just keeps getting weaker and weaker. In PW1, Edgeworth was at least a worthy adversary, and Manfred von Karma is still the scariest opponent of this entire series. Since then it's been downhill. Franziska was ok, but not really anywhere near the level of her dad. Godot was an awesome character, but pretty terrible at being a prosecuter(for obvious reasons).

And now we have Klavier, who is even less effective than Godot was at the job. By which I mean, not only does he have a difficult time ever pinning the crime on your client, he also tends to help you and doesn't seem to be aggressive towards the defense at all.
Agree, but

Manfred von Karma is still the scariest opponent of this entire series.

Gant much?
Defendant in 2-4?
Shelly de Killer?

[Mr. Beef]

Shelly was a bitch compared to Dahlia Hawthorne, Mega-Bitch extraordinaire.

[pygmy carnotaur]

Ok, good point. Manfred is the most effective prosecuter is what I meant. He's clearly not the evilest character in the series, just the one you most hate to see on the other side of the court room.

And for what it's worth, I think Dahlia wins over Gant, de Killer, & Matt Engarde. She was just pure evil.

[munch]

WHOA WHOA WHOA

Why are you calling me out in this thread title? If you want to fight OP, let me know the time and the place.

[Doomed]

Ok, good point. Manfred is the most effective prosecuter is what I meant. He's clearly not the evilest character in the series, just the one you most hate to see on the other side of the court room.

And for what it's worth, I think Dahlia wins over Gant, de Killer, & Matt Engarde. She was just pure evil.
You're right-I just forgot about her. And PW3 is the AA game I played most recently (besides AJ:AA)

[kainzero]

Manfred was an excellent opponent. When I heard him yell "Objection" at first, damn, that was crazy. Edgeworth and Fran, while not intimidating, it at least felt like you were actually working against them. Godot was silly, but at least he was funny and he did always seem to know what was going on.

Klavier on the other hand... he always seems clueless. And although I think he has pretty cool animation, the guitar thing had to be the corniest thing ever. Plus, it never seems like he knows anything that's going on.

And for what it's worth, I think Dahlia wins over Gant, de Killer, & Matt Engarde. She was just pure evil.
She was, but she got owned so hard that her evil-ness just didn't seem so bad. Pearl's mom though, she was equally as evil but without the verbal beatdown.

[clockworkgreen]

Through the first 2 cases. Man, case 2 was sure.....interesting.

[Rei no Otaku]

She was, but she got owned so hard that her evil-ness just didn't seem so bad. Pearl's mom though, she was equally as evil but without the verbal beatdown.
That's what was so great about her. I'm not sure on the rules about AA3 spoilers so I'll just say that because of her "condition" she HAD to get owned badly. There was no other way for her to accept a loss.

Dahlia was awesome...

[botticus]

So how is everyone enjoying this with a new lead character? My copy should be arriving in the mail tonight, just in time for a weekend trip.

[clockworkgreen]

Honestly, I don't really even notice. Aside from what I said earlier about the old characters not yet leaving. It's just like having AA1 all over again.

[Mr. Beef]

It feels...nice. Kind of like a passing of the torch. I'm almost done with Case 4, so I'll post about my feelings about it later.

Phoenix is in the game a LOT, but you never get the sense that he's trying to turn this into "PW 4." He's definitely there for moral support, and they don't try to force him too hard on you throughout the game. This is Apollo's show, and they're letting you know it.

The only thing I don't like about this game is Klavier. I just don't get the same "serious" vibe that I got from Edgeworth, Franziska, and Godot. Namely, I just don't feel intimidated when he makes his case. I mean, he does the friggin' air guitar. Sure, the animation on it looks nice (same with his wall-pounding), but that's it.

[Veronica Mars]

I hate how the prosecution helps you sometimes.

[Mr Durand Pierre]

For those who have played through the entire game, is it as good as the earlier PW games? I'm kind of on the fence about this. I sort of liked the other games, but more for their stories than puzzles and I liked the darker direction the series went in towrds the end. AJ looks a lot lighter and goofier, but the mystery surrounding what happened to Phoenix to make him decide to quit practicing law sounds interesting. Without giving away any plot spoilers, can anyone say if it's as dark and serious as the previous games?

[Doomed]

For those who have played through the entire game, is it as good as the earlier PW games? games?
Don't meet your qualifications for finishing the game, but my will power is terrible when it comes to Ace Attorney spoilers. IMO it's pretty dark, but not as interesting as what went down in the third game or 1-5.

[pygmy carnotaur]

I'm still working my way through the last case, but at the point of the game I'm at I have a fairly good idea of what the final outcome is going to be... and I have to say it's pretty dark. I really like how, even though this one is a new story, they still found a way to make the last case a long one, with an epic feel to it. I'll say more about this one (with spoilers) once I've got finished I think.

The only case that's really light/goofy(mainly because of the defendant and the first witness) is Case 2. Which is odd, because usually they save it for Case 3. It was still good though.


As far as the new characters go, I like them about the same as the old ones. Which is to say, there are some I like and some I don't like, but overall they're good. Apollo doesn't really feel different enough from Phoenix, though I suspect future games will help to solidify thier differences.

[Veronica Mars]

For some reason , I lol'ed when the prosecutor said "TeenieBoppers."

Also, when Phoenix Said "Hum it for me, maybe I can play it.
Just playing, I don't do requests."

Man, sucks the game is almost over for me :/
Been trying to play it slow.

[Rei no Otaku]

Klavier is a huge disappointment.

[DarkKnightCecil]

The only thing I don't like about this game is Klavier. I just don't get the same "serious" vibe that I got from Edgeworth, Franziska, and Godot. Namely, I just don't feel intimidated when he makes his case. I mean, he does the friggin' air guitar. Sure, the animation on it looks nice (same with his wall-pounding), but that's it.
Is it really fair to compare Klavier's personality to Edgeworth? I mean Edgeworth was older than Klavier is now and Klavier is in a stinkin' rock band, of course he's going to be naive and immature.

[Mr. Beef]

I'm not really comparing him to Edgeworth (well, I kinda am). It's just that I'm used to prosecutors getting some sort of emotional response from me. With Edgeworth, I got a sense of a real rivalry, followed by a sort of "aw yeah, shit is gonna go down" when I saw him in later games. Godot, I felt that this guy is really out to get Phoenix, but why?

With Klavier...it's kinda blank, like he's just doing his job, even if he's in a rock band.

[pygmy carnotaur]

Finished it tonight. I do have to say, the last case is rather disappointing.

Case 4 spoilers
The real issue I had here was that it was way, way too easy. Especially the last court section. By that point, the game hasn't saved any surprises and you have the whole thing figured out. It's just anti-climactic really, and I would even say it's the weakest final case of all the Ace Attorney games.

I hope there's a new prosecuter for the next one. Klavier is way too friendly and helpful, to the point where there was never a point where I felt he actually had a case against any defendent, or that Apollo was in danger of losing.

[RollingSkull]

Overall some damn fine cases, but Case 4 was just a terrible disappointment. They had a REALLY good final case in there, buuut apparently instead of making Valant an epic villain, they decided to paste together a gunky mishmash of the forger family, the magicians, Phoenix and Kristoph into something so sloppy that only time travel could make it work. Valant was cheated out of a second trial he so richly deserved. Kristoph was shoved down our throats as a villain with all style and no substance, black psyche locks hiding a secret far, far less important than Engarde's, and overall hisgreatest crime was failing to kill a little girl for seven years. Whoever thought the Grammarye case deserved to be raped in such a manner should be fired.

EDIT: Also, the entire game was too damn easy.

Klavier had two settings:
1. Wanting you to win while spamming the air guitar like I use "NEEDA DISPENSAH HEUH" in TF2
2. Complete and total sniping queen douche while spamming the air guitar like I use "NEEDA DISPENSAH HEUH" in TF2

And, finally, case 3 spoilersReally? Really? Only now and just for me is "No decisive evidence" a problem, a good four games in? Really?

[Doomed]

And, finally, case 3 spoilersReally? Really? Only now and just for me is "No decisive evidence" a problem, a good four games in? Really?
I think 2-3 had some of that too... or was it 2-2?

[DarkKnightCecil]

IDK, I kinda like that Klavier broke out of the prosecutor mold and had a completely unique personality compared to the others.

[Mr. Beef]

I have to agree with everyone's opinion about case 4.

While I think that, story-wise, it wrapped things up nicely, it was a mess in general. I was expecting Kristoph's motive to be something more sinister, but it was just keeping the two painters quiet? How lame. Plus, that last trial was waaaay too easy. Only having to present, what was it, 3 objects to win the case? Real epic. It just seemed longer because there was so much talking in between choices (which I didn't mind too much, because I'm still a sucker for the story).

And SPEAKING of choices, what a lame thing to throw in, the guilty or innocent thing. At least make the guilty ending something more than "you lose because this happened." I mean, c'mon! And the innocent ending was a sham, too. Plus, this "no concrete evidence" thing was a fat load. What an awful, awful copout.

And where was the communication between Trucy, Apollo, and Phoenix? Apollo learns about Trucy's family, and they don't even touch on it, aside from Trucy saying "we'll talk about it later!?" I don't believe that garbage for a second. Then Trucy says, "oh, I knew daddy was alive, lol." Another load of BS. I really hope they fix this shit up in the next game, I really do. I can live with Apollo's mom not revealing herself in this game to him, but I mean, they could've at least revealed to Apollo/Trucy that they're siblings.

I still like this game's final case, but if we're gonna compare it to the other games, well, it can't really compare. Not even to the 2nd game's cluster of a final case.

[RollingSkull]

I think 2-3 had some of that too... or was it 2-2?

2-2, you only nailed Ini Miney by proving who she was in the past after repeatedly skewering her testimony in the present. One of my favorite cases.

2-3, the evidence was in the courtroom the entire time.

[RollingSkull]

And SPEAKING of choices, what a lame thing to throw in, the guilty or innocent thing. At least make the guilty ending something more than "you lose because this happened." I mean, c'mon! And the innocent ending was a sham, too. Plus, this "no concrete evidence" thing was a fat load. What an awful, awful copout.

Case 4 ending spoilers:
"And so, on October 12th, at 2:12pm, a verdict was reached. The first verdict of the jurist system... was a hung jury. Vera's final verdict would have to be postponed for another day."

"But fate had something else in mind. Over the night, Vera's condition worsened, and she succumbed to the poison. Vera's verdict was postponed for eternity."

Phoenix Wright: "God fucking dammit!"
Lamiroir: "SORRY I NOT GOOD WITH COMPUTER"


And where was the communication between Trucy, Apollo, and Phoenix? Apollo learns about Trucy's family, and they don't even touch on it, aside from Trucy saying "we'll talk about it later!?" I don't believe that garbage for a second. Then Trucy says, "oh, I knew daddy was alive, lol." Another load of BS. I really hope they fix this shit up in the next game, I really do. I can live with Apollo's mom not revealing herself in this game to him, but I mean, they could've at least revealed to Apollo/Trucy that they're siblings.

I still like this game's final case, but if we're gonna compare it to the other games, well, it can't really compare. Not even to the 2nd game's cluster of a final case.

Case 4 story spoilers It is plainly obvious the Gramarye murders were put together before the case had to be shoehorned to fit Japan switching to a jury system. A proper case like that probably would've given us a revelation or two that actually makes sense.

Zak had all the makings of an excellent villain. I don't believe for a second that his emo-wandering off when just shown his brother's confession was meant to happen.

Besides, who is going to teach Trucy the Magnifi secrets? She can use them, yes, but she doesn't know them, does she?

[Mr. Beef]

Case 4 ending spoilers:
"And so, on October 12th, at 2:12pm, a verdict was reached. The first verdict of the jurist system... was a hung jury. Vera's final verdict would have to be postponed for another day."

"But fate had something else in mind. Over the night, Vera's condition worsened, and she succumbed to the poison. Vera's verdict was postponed for eternity."

Phoenix Wright: "God fucking dammit!"
Lamiroir: "SORRY I NOT GOOD WITH COMPUTER"


Case 4 story spoilers It is plainly obvious the Gramarye murders were put together before the case had to be shoehorned to fit Japan switching to a jury system. A proper case like that probably would've given us a revelation or two that actually makes sense.

Zak had all the makings of an excellent villain. I don't believe for a second that his emo-wandering off when just shown his brother's confession was meant to happen.

Besides, who is going to teach Trucy the Magnifi secrets? She can use them, yes, but she doesn't know them, does she?Regarding the first spoiler: :rofl:

Regarding the second: Probably some mroe BS about how Valant is teaching her how to do the secrets. Actually, that'd make for a nice swerve for game 5, making him a good villain. Then, the mom can come back, and reveal everything. Shazam! I just made a good case 4!

[pygmy carnotaur]

More Case 4 stuff.
It definitely does seem like Zak was being set up to be the villain. I'm not sure if I would've liked that better or not, but I can definitely say Kristoph ended up being a terrible disappointment.

I think the real problem is his reasoning for setting up Phoenix in the first place. Are we really to believe he would ruin Wright's life and kill two people(one of which is a little girl), just because he's jealous that Zak fired him in favor of Phoenix? Or is it because he was denied the chance to beat his little brother in court by using false evidence? Kristoph is still pretty evil, since he's willing to kill children just to save his reputation, but ultimately he's not the clever supervillian type that usually shows up at the end of these games.

Also, given that Phoenix & Zak are more or less friends, why was Zak trying to ruin Phoenix's reputation at poker? Whatever his reason, it must've been a good one for him to assault Olga when it didn't work out. I guess this would've made more sense if it would've been Zak who was a murderer(because this incident clearly shows he has a bad temper), but even then not really.

Also, what really happened to Thalassa(I think that's her name). She didn't die, so I would assume Magnifi was the only one who knew what really happened. So he ends up looking pretty bad too, making Zak believe he had killed his own wife, and even blackmailing him over, all the while knowing that she's not actually dead at all.
I guess I'm not really sure what they wanted us to think of the whole Gramarye Troupe actually. I guess that'll be expanded on in future games with Apollo & Trucy though.



The case itself is not really bad... it's only really bad because it's the last one. There's a certain expectation built in to the final cases in these games, and this one just falls flat.

[kainzero]

I think any time the game tries to explain law, it just utterly fails. To this day I don't particularly understand that whole evidence law thing in PW1 case 5. Plus, a lot of times, it does seem like you're just picking up evidence anywhere... I'd think it's illegal to disturb the crime scene. The game gets more intense when you have emotional links to the characters. 2-4 was especially ethical in nature and is really up there as far as cases go.

Case 4 spoilers:
See, I thought it would be interesting to add in the Jurist system. I thought it'd change the gameplay system somehow, but nope. Just a cheap copout ending.

The defendant's lawyer's mother was sitting on the jury! How is that a fair jury?! Even if she didn't know at the time, the fact that she does now really endangers the verdict.

Kristoph's motive is unclear. It doesn't even make logical sense. He wants to kill Vera to hide the faking of the evidence? Is this the first time he faked it? Why did he want to fake the diary so much in this case anyway, for the fame of defending in the Gramarye case? 'cause he got fired? Ugh. It's just so messy. I agree with everything pygmy carnotaur said.

Where did Apollo come from, and why did he become a lawyer anyway? He had no real personality. None whatsoever.

In some respects, Case 4 was fascinating but it wasn't necessarily fun to play through from a puzzle perspective and there were just too many holes. It almost felt... rushed.

The perceive system kinda ticked me off. I thought it'd be cool because you could catch where they'd be lying and you could use it to your advantage. But, no, you TELL them what their tell is and reveal lies in their testimony... that just strikes me as strange.
Despite this, I still like the game. Case 2 and 3 had some really interesting puzzle-solving aspects to them, and really nice twists that had me thinking one way and going the other... the "in-between" cases have steadily improved since the first game.

[Veronica Mars]

I liked this game, but you guys all make a valid point.
I felt it could have ended better.

[Mr. Beef]

Even MORE Case 4 critique: The only thing I liked about case 4 was everything leading up to the last court session, specifically the Mason System. I thought that was very clever, and it really helped hype up the last court session.

[leveskikesko]

I'm a bit new to the Ace Attorney series.

But I was wondering are the characters really American or Japanese, or both. The first game said they're American, but is it the same for the Japanese version?

I kinda think it's dumb that the localization would change the game's identity like that. IMO it would make more sense to just call the characters Japanese due to the obvious Japanese influences.

[botticus]

Finished Case 1 last night and started in on Case 2 today. They've already made more additions to the courtroom aspects of the game than I had expected them to, so I'm happy so far.

[DarkKnightCecil]

I'm a bit new to the Ace Attorney series.

But I was wondering are the characters really American or Japanese, or both. The first game said they're American, but is it the same for the Japanese version?

I kinda think it's dumb that the localization would change the game's identity like that. IMO it would make more sense to just call the characters Japanese due to the obvious Japanese influences.
In Japan, they are Japanese. In America, they are American. A few changes are made through localization.

Like both of the Gavins were American lawyers in the JPN version, but in the US version, they are German.

[guinaevere]

Just finished Trials and Tribulations. Strell, you were right when you told me it was the best of the three, but mainly for Case 5.

My question is, how's Apollo? Should I wait for a price drop or a deal and go through some other games in the meantime? I had AJ in my hand yesterday and looking at the back, the Prosecutor looked lame. It was just a picture, I could be wrong. But I don't want to pay full price and be disappointed.

[Mr. Beef]

I liked Apollo until the final court trial. My feelings about that aside, however, it's a very solid game, and worth the $30 I dropped on it for the first case alone. The prosecutor....well, you get used to him.

[62t]

no question PW3 is the best game of the series. As for the prosecutor, I would say his apperance is not a problem. He also has one of the best theme song in the series. I think it is worth the money but all the PW games got a price drop eventually.

[guessed]

I picked it up the other day, thanks to it showing up used at a GameStop near work. $19.99 + tax after edge and 10% coupon, which I figured would be better than waiting 6 months for it to drop to that price new. I only picked up T&T a few weeks ago, and I want to finish it before starting AJ.

[Whambamm]

Well I just finished it and it looks as if everyone has already summed up my complaints about the game. It wasn't bad but it was probably the weakest of the series. I'm hoping it was because it was just the first one in a new series, but unlike the the Phoenix Wright games, I just don't feel for the characters yet. Like has been stated before cases 2-4 and 3-5 are very character and emotional driven cases and I just didn't feel that emotion in any of these.

[JEKKI]

man Phoenix Wright is like pizza or ice cream on top of cookies...

no matter what u have to try REAL hard to mess it up... but even if it's not that good it's still pizza or ice cream on top of cookies....

I beat this game and this is how I feel...

the only real cool thing I like is Lamiroir...

[Rei no Otaku]

I think the problem was that the 3rd game was just TOO good. Everything in Apollo just paled in comparison.

[kainzero]

I think the problem was that the 3rd game was just TOO good. Everything in Apollo just paled in comparison.
Kinda, but not really.
The 3rd game was really good, but AJ really messed up with its 4th case. It could've been a worthy successor to PW3 but now it just feels rushed.

[spydey]

I finished T&T and started Apollo today. I finished Case 1. I don't know Phoenix's story yet, but so far I wished they left him alone. I really liked how T&T finished.

[Strell]

Worked through cases 2 and 3. Haven't done much in 4 outside of watching a few of the opening conversations.

Big question on Case 2: I actually saw that someone else asked about the slippers, and the answer was basically "Japanese culture," so I'll go ahead and take that one out, since I had the exact same feeling of "why the hell did the girl take her shoes off?" In fact, I bet if you look at the flashback picture of her holding the gun at Meraktis, you could see what shoes she's wearing.

But anyway - my big question - why in the hell does she still have the gun when she wakes up in the cart? I can't imagine anyone being so stupid as to knock out a gunman, drag their body somewhere, and keep the gun on them.

I get that it was owned by the Kitaki family, so maybe you don't want to keep it anywhere around your own place, but come on - he could have disposed of the body and dumped the gun somewhere without any problems. So why the hell did he keep it near her? I don't buy that he thought she was dead so it was completely safe - I figure he'd want that piece as far away from him and anyone else as soon as possible.

And he was a doctor, people! I could see non medical personnel thinking the person was dead, but a trained surgeon? Come on already. The guy was unscrupulous and probably a sleezebag, but he didn't seem like a dumbass.

Keeping the gun near her, not knowing she was still alive? Please. That's just silly. Way too much deus ex machina right there at the end. Still liked the case, but that was just too much coincidence for me to overlook.


As for Case 3, I ended up liking it. These first three cases have been ok. I'd say overall the game feels just as good as a PW game. Perhaps the last case will alter that.

Also, while I agree Klavier feels more like a rock god first and a prosecutor second, I don't quite get all the hate for him. And honestly, he's not as relaxed as some of the comments on here sound. He's always thinking ahead - I think that's the bigger difference between him and the previous prosecutors. And yes, I know earlier opponents thought ahead, but Klavier seems much more calm and collected than they are. And I still contend he's thinking four or five moves ahead of everyone else, especially since he always seems to know what Apollo is going to do or say and plans for it. He also does a really good job of picking out a lot of the fulcrums that Apollo's objections all fall upon, and seems to do it a lot quicker and more decisively than previous attorneys.

Great game. I'm already feeling withdrawel pangs since this will probably be the last one for a good year or so, which is really bad when you consider we basically got three within one year.

[kainzero]

Big question on Case 2: But anyway - my big question - why in the hell does she still have the gun when she wakes up in the cart? I can't imagine anyone being so stupid as to knock out a gunman, drag their body somewhere, and keep the gun on them.

I get that it was owned by the Kitaki family, so maybe you don't want to keep it anywhere around your own place, but come on - he could have disposed of the body and dumped the gun somewhere without any problems. So why the hell did he keep it near her? I don't buy that he thought she was dead so it was completely safe - I figure he'd want that piece as far away from him and anyone else as soon as possible.

And he was a doctor, people! I could see non medical personnel thinking the person was dead, but a trained surgeon? Come on already. The guy was unscrupulous and probably a sleezebag, but he didn't seem like a dumbass.

Keeping the gun near her, not knowing she was still alive? Please. That's just silly. Way too much deus ex machina right there at the end. Still liked the case, but that was just too much coincidence for me to overlook.


As for Case 3, I ended up liking it. These first three cases have been ok. I'd say overall the game feels just as good as a PW game. Perhaps the last case will alter that.

Also, while I agree Klavier feels more like a rock god first and a prosecutor second, I don't quite get all the hate for him. And honestly, he's not as relaxed as some of the comments on here sound. He's always thinking ahead - I think that's the bigger difference between him and the previous prosecutors. And yes, I know earlier opponents thought ahead, but Klavier seems much more calm and collected than they are. And I still contend he's thinking four or five moves ahead of everyone else, especially since he always seems to know what Apollo is going to do or say and plans for it. He also does a really good job of picking out a lot of the fulcrums that Apollo's objections all fall upon, and seems to do it a lot quicker and more decisively than previous attorneys.
Case 2:
I don't think the fact that he didn't know she was dead is too far-fetched. Don't they make those kind of mistakes in real life, when they assume a victim is dead and is alive all of a sudden? I dunno. Maybe because I saw it on an episode of CSI, it might be a really rare case. =)

As for the gun, if you assumed someone was dead and you were going to dump the body, might as well dump the gun with it, you know?

What I didn't like was during the replay of the scene, they kept showing "Wocky" holding a gun up to the doctor. Didn't we already establish that that one chick had the gun already?

I definitely don't think it's as bad as Case 3, with the random immediate arrest of Machi and Lamiroir lying so much to preserve the HIDDEN MAGIC SECRETZ and OMGZ I CAN'T SEE... although they were both fun cases to play through =)

My main reason for not liking Klavier is because he's on the fence way too much and hence doesn't make a particularly good opponent. I'm replaying the game and during Case 2 there's a part when Apollo says something like, "Dang. I almost had him. The case can't end here!" All of a sudden there's a "Hold it!" and Klavier implores you to finish the job, so Apollo does his objection thing and then they fight on like normal. In fact, even at the end Apollo says something like "Man, I won, but it didn't quite feel like I won" or something to that effect. It's just too shifty for me to really comprehend why he's prosecuting.

[utopianmachine]

I came to this thread to get some ending spoilers for case 4. Last night, I was playing through the Mason system, breaking down a Psyche-Lock, when my battery died as I was saving. This morning, when I went to resume the game, the data failed to load, and I have to start all over again. No way I'm doing that, even though I wish I could see the end of the game. I have a general idea what happened now, and it sounds as unsatisfying as you guys say. Still, it was a fun ride for the most part.

[utopianmachine]

Alright. Discovered that when I went to start a new game, it let me pick case 4 to start. I'm going to start the case over again so I can see how everything plays out myself.

[Strell]

As I wrote about Klavier, I don't get all the hate for the ending of case 4. But I don't have time to pontificate upon the matter, so I shall do so later. At length.

[Eradicator]

Finished the game last night. I quite enjoyed cases 1-3, and most of case 4 (all except the final courtroom stuff). Specific complaints/questions below:


My main beef with case 4 has already been discussed a bit, but the game really dies after the second investigation phase. It's obvious what's going to happen, and there are absolutely no surprises in the final court "battle". Heck, there's barely any interactivity, and you're just mashing "next" to page through the dialog for the final 30 minutes or so.

I thought the whole "Thalassa is Lamiroir" thing came out of nowhere. The Thalassa/Trucy/Apollo connection was cool, but there didn't seem to be any need to connect Lamiroir too! Other than Lamiroir's amnesia, were there any hints to this connection?

What was up with the sketches under the forged paintings? When did Vera or Drew ever have a chance to see these scenes?

[Strell]

You all knew I said I was going to talk about case 4, and here to talk about it I am. And let me say that I think it's required at this point, because all of you are pretty much entirely wrong about a lot of different things.

But for whatever reason, it seems my posts in here are being largely ignored, so I'm not exactly expecting anyone to pay much attention. Same thing happened in the Layton thread. Oh well.

So here's what everyone is wrong about on Case 4 (as well as some miscellaneous observations of my own):

First off, Kristoph's motivations have been highly misinterpreted. He wasn't pissed at Phoenix until the case was turned over to him seven years ago, and this was after he had already commissioned the forged evidence. Likewise, he wasn't pissed at Zak until the switch occurred, so his motivations to kill Vera and Drew were in place before that. Which is scary no matter how you look at it - he was willing to get a man convicted and kill two people simply to win a case.

This ties in with the second part everyone seems to be missing, which is killing Zak seven years later. Yeah, I guess he's still pissed about the slight, but that isn't his motive. Someone (I think Phoenix) clearly says that anyone who won the Grammarye case seven years ago would become wildly famous, which would put them into celebrity status instantly. They'd be set for life. Kristoph wanted that prestige, and had already set things in motion to secure it. Imagine defending any huge celebrity today - your name would become a household staple, much like the OJ Simpson trial so long ago.

(Which, actually, parallels one of the problems I always had in the original PW trilogy, which is that Phoenix - despite always winning these gigantic cases - is always A) still considered a hack to a degree/never given credit, and B) never seems to gain the positive notoriety that you'd think would come with his performances. You'd think that he'd be seen as a proper attorney and net high class cases/clients, but he's always talking about how he's poor and such. I guess this is a common thing in a lot of anime though (See Cowboy Bebop).)

Kristoph is actually really heinous when you think about it. He's clearly keeping poison on him to serve dirty deeds. He's watching people for seven years and adjusting his moves accordingly. He keeps in touch with forgers. He's not scared of performing infanticide anymore than homicide. You guys are all confusing him as nothing more than a proud dude annoyed that someone kicked his sorry ass off the case, but that's not the deal in the least.

Recall that Zak says that you can only really know a man when you see him in competition - he saw what was really there. Recall Vera's comments that she saw the Devil. Recall the black psyche-locks. Recall Brushel's paranoia. Kristoph is quite a monster, actually. It's just that he plays his cards so well and so close to his chest that you never see him break out of a calm, cool, collected mood. It's almost unfortunate that Phoenix nails his ass to the wall so early on, as Kristoph has the potential to really flex some devious plots were he out in the open.

Hell, it would be nice to think that during the seven years, he performed lots of crimes/murders/other acts, and that in the next game, continues to be intimately tied to cases Apollo will have to deal with. Maybe, then, we could finally see what's behind those black psyche-locks. I'm really anxious to see if those will come into play in future sequels.

As for case 4's "simplicity," I think you guys are really dividing in hopes of conquering here. I see a lot of people talking about how the investigation phase with Phoenix ruins the momentum and makes for a shortened, weak ending court room session.

Think about PW3 for a moment. Case 4, specifically. Maybe 10 minutes long. And yet the information found in it ties up the first and final cases entirely.

Now imagine that the case is the Mason system in the last case. It's an integral part of the case, but it's still wholly separate. In other words, if the flashback to PW3-4 had been placed into the final case (thus making PW3 have 4 cases total), I imagine people would have complained about it as well, saying it takes everything out of context and creates a situation where "one of these things is not like the other." Everyone seems so intent on saying the final part of the last case is so abysmal, and it's because you're all sectioning everything out.

That's the problem I have with all of this "disappointment." You're dicing the final case up instead of taking it at face value as a complete entity. Now, I won't sit here and act like the case measures up to PW3-5, or potentially PW1-4/5, as those cases are all pretty incredible, but I think this case was very unique in its execution, and sets it apart from everything else. We're with a new cast on a new system in an established series. Of course part of it needs to feel different from previous incarnations.

Tangentially, I really enjoyed using Phoenix during the case. I like that you're solving a current case, solving a past case, and giving him peace by discovering the truth to so many questions all at once. The entire dissertation I had about case 1 that I posted, for example, gets explained away easily, and that's just one example. Everyone is so bent on saying the case is a dud, but you're all dismissing what is learned during the case.

So say what you want about it, but it had a good pace, some neat elements, and tried to carve an entirely new history for new players (players as in the cast members of the game). And on that note, it succeeded very well.

A question I had about it, though, was why Drew decided to finally use the stamp. Seems wildly out of character. I can't see him wanting to do it on purpose, as he knows it would upset his daughter. This almost points to suicide, really. Which would mean that when you go through those motions in court disproving suicide, it might have always been the truth. I mean, maybe he somehow knew about the poison himself, and was actually sacrificing himself to save his daughter? It's possible.

As for dealings with Lamirior - I'm more surprised no one is questioning how she got her memory back in the three months between the third and fourth cases. That's a much larger mystery. Also, I think Beef asked about her involvement skewing the case, but that can be explained. Phoenix makes it clear that no jurist was involved in the development of the case. That's a big point to make. She has no bearing on the case at all when you sit down and look at it. Plus, Phoenix might have figured out who she was before asking her to be a Jurist. Perhaps, then, when she was commissioned, she didn't have her memory back, but it returned during the case. That actually explains my question I just asked, and makes the case much better crafted that you guys are giving it credit for.

I won't argue that it's a simple decision with the innocent/guilty thing, as it is. But it's the precedent that's being set here that is the big deal. Which is an interesting thing to consider - what if, in the next game, they use the Jurist system as a scoring mechanism? I.e., if you perform very well in court, you get a unanimous decision? That could alter the gameplay a lot and even add replay value, especially if different dialogue/conclusions can be drawn based on how well you perform in court.

Some other things to discuss:

Zak ruining Phoenix's reputation in poker - You have to think about how Zak was certain he wouldn't be pronounced guilty in his trial. He had thought out the entire trial beforehand, and realized one of two things would happen. Either the forged evidence would fly and he'd be found not guilty (which means he was selling out Valant, which makes him....questionably good as a person, really...and I especially think this is so because he probably knew about the fake evidence, having corroborated with Kristoph to help get it produced), or he'd be found guilty and then escape.

So, in Zak's mind, Phoenix - being the experienced attorney he is - wasn't going to screw it up. He had decisive evidence and he had shown himself a good and effective man through his poker playing. Zak thought he was home free. But in the trial, we see the evidence getting called out. So Zak immediately knows he's going to have to escape, having already planned it with his daughter.

So he escapes.

That's your motivation. In his eyes, Phoenix failed and cause his exile, which also means he has to abandon his daughter. He's cheated out of remaining a hugely successful Grammarye for the rest of his life. And he knows the truth about the evidence, so he's probably watching his back for Kristoph. Perhaps worst of all, he imagines that Phoenix is a hack and is entirely to blame for everything. He waits the seven years and plots to destroy Phoenix's reputation (even though he'd already done so quite thoroughly) a second time.

There's probably something in there about how he knows Trucy is probably helping him win poker anyway, so maybe he's angry about that too.

Again, don't get the hate for Klavier. The final exchanges between him and his brother are pretty extraordinary. It's absolutely clear that Klavier doesn't fuck around when it comes to the truth, and he constantly pins down Kristoph's subtle-but-powerfully-effective argument tactics. Klavier is detecting the slightest deviation in his brother. That's something to commend.

The "No evidence" problem - really surprised that this becomes part of the game's mechanics. Someone mentioned that "this isn't realistic." No part of this game series is realistic. And besides, there are tons of cases that get decided one way or the other based on evidence or the lack thereof. So I think it actually fits in with reality based on that part alone, which is why jurors are used in the American legal system.

(On a side note, that's kind of a funny problem with the PW series - I noticed starting in PW2 that they repeatedly imply that the game takes place in the states as opposed to Japan, which is funny given the odd juxtaposition of Japanese culture and agents, such as the Kurain Village and ...."spirit dojo temple" from PW3-5. So you're telling me you're taking place in the USA, but your court system doesn't use jurors until now? Just make the setting in Japan, Capcom! You don't think we're that dumb, do you?)

Segways into next topic - the Jurist system. I think they call it "Jurist" because that sounds cooler than juror. Also, this makes me wonder what the 12 people are doing in the courtroom to begin with? They've been there this whole time - I mean you see them talking to each other, the judge has to bang his gavel to get order, etc. So these people are just....what, an audience? I guess so, even though that seems out of place. I guess that gives Klavier people to play to, though.

Perceive System - I like it, but .... does no one (in terms of the prosecution and judge) think it's weird that Apollo gets to use that as an effective means of discerning the truth? I did have a problem with that. I mean he says things like "Oh you are sweating, that means you are lying." It's a good system, and I like the eerieness of it, but they need to explain it better.

"Trucy knowing her dad is alive is bs." Why? She helped him escape, after all. And whose to say he isn't sending her letters every once and a while? Can't be hard to hide them from Phoenix, since he's kind of laid-back by that time. For all we know, she could have been informed behind the scenes on tons of things. He could also be feeding her secrets on magical routines and tricks in this manner also.

I think Magnifi wasn't thinking clearly when he sent the two notes to Zak and Valant. I think this because he obviously expected them to shoot the clown's forehead as a show of their loyalty. But if that's the case, he should have had a second clown in the room. If Valant walked in and already saw the clown shot, it sort of gives away the "puzzle" of the letter. I'd like to think Magnifi would have thought that through.

Funny quote from the judge when he hears about nail polish, and then starts talking about his wife's red nails - "She's been painting them this whole time!"

I was curious why Maya never showed up. Or, hell, Pearl. Maybe they are off spirit training/channeling. I actually thought it was really weird that Maya wasn't around during the case seven years ago.

I'm also surprised Edgeworth isn't around at all. I am thankful, however, that Lotta Hart continues to not be around. You're two for two, batting 500 right now on that, Capcom. Keep it up.

Regarding case 2 - Someone asked about how Wocky had a gun, but that "he couldn't because the girl had it." They say pretty clearly that two guns were removed from the mansion the night of the murder. The girl could have stolen the first one from Wocky, and he could have gotten the second.


I think that's enough. I'd really appreciate some discussion further, but I'm not really holding my breath. I'm only hoping me calling everyone out is going to get you all on the offensive. :]

[spydey]

I'm still on case 3 so I can't debate with you yet.

[kainzero]

Cool, nice writeup. I'll try to get some discussion going =)


First off, Kristoph's motivations have been highly misinterpreted. He wasn't pissed at Phoenix until the case was turned over to him seven years ago, and this was after he had already commissioned the forged evidence. Likewise, he wasn't pissed at Zak until the switch occurred, so his motivations to kill Vera and Drew were in place before that. Which is scary no matter how you look at it - he was willing to get a man convicted and kill two people simply to win a case.

This ties in with the second part everyone seems to be missing, which is killing Zak seven years later. Yeah, I guess he's still pissed about the slight, but that isn't his motive. Someone (I think Phoenix) clearly says that anyone who won the Grammarye case seven years ago would become wildly famous, which would put them into celebrity status instantly. They'd be set for life. Kristoph wanted that prestige, and had already set things in motion to secure it. Imagine defending any huge celebrity today - your name would become a household staple, much like the OJ Simpson trial so long ago.

See, that sounds good when you explain it, but in playing the game I never really felt that it was such a high profile case and that's why I thought the motive was weak. And it still feels like that.
Also, I forget, but what was Kristoph's plan to kill Vera's dad? Because I find it weird that he gave two poisons, the nail polish and the stamp, to Vera.

As for case 4's "simplicity," I think you guys are really dividing in hopes of conquering here. I see a lot of people talking about how the investigation phase with Phoenix ruins the momentum and makes for a shortened, weak ending court room session.

Think about PW3 for a moment. Case 4, specifically. Maybe 10 minutes long. And yet the information found in it ties up the first and final cases entirely.

Now imagine that the case is the Mason system in the last case. It's an integral part of the case, but it's still wholly separate. In other words, if the flashback to PW3-4 had been placed into the final case (thus making PW3 have 4 cases total), I imagine people would have complained about it as well, saying it takes everything out of context and creates a situation where "one of these things is not like the other." Everyone seems so intent on saying the final part of the last case is so abysmal, and it's because you're all sectioning everything out.

That's the problem I have with all of this "disappointment." You're dicing the final case up instead of taking it at face value as a complete entity. Now, I won't sit here and act like the case measures up to PW3-5, or potentially PW1-4/5, as those cases are all pretty incredible, but I think this case was very unique in its execution, and sets it apart from everything else. We're with a new cast on a new system in an established series. Of course part of it needs to feel different from previous incarnations.I think the one thing that I've enjoyed throughout PW is the buildup that each case usually has that is similar to a good mystery. After the investigation phase, there'll be a few suspects in the back of your head, a lot of clues... and maybe you'll even know who did it and how, but yet there's *something* you can't quite piece together, something that you need to put together in the Trial section when they try to break your theories.
Take Case 2 for example... after that second case, and the second investigation you pretty much know that that one chick is closely related to the case and is probably the killer. But there're still those thoughts in the back of your head where you want to know everything that went on.
The problem with Case 4 is that the MASON system pretty much solves the entire case. There's nothing else to really look for, no more mystery to be solved. And all you gotta do is pin the blame on Kristoph which was made easier with the Juror system. 3-4, placed in the middle of 3-5, is nowhere near the same thing. The system itself was pretty cool since you get to bridge gaps from the past and the present; but the contents of the investigation revealed too much and just gave you too many obvious hints.

As for dealings with Lamirior - I'm more surprised no one is questioning how she got her memory back in the three months between the third and fourth cases. That's a much larger mystery. Also, I think Beef asked about her involvement skewing the case, but that can be explained. Phoenix makes it clear that no jurist was involved in the development of the case. That's a big point to make. She has no bearing on the case at all when you sit down and look at it. Plus, Phoenix might have figured out who she was before asking her to be a Jurist. Perhaps, then, when she was commissioned, she didn't have her memory back, but it returned during the case. That actually explains my question I just asked, and makes the case much better crafted that you guys are giving it credit for.I think that was me who brought it up. I believed she got her memory back during the case. But I think even then, the juror would have to be biased in some fashion. She may not have any bearing on the case at hand, but the defense is her children! How can you not be biased?
Although, one has to laugh at the fact that a Borginian citizen was initially selected for an American trial =) Maybe their juror selection process is THAT weird.

Segways into next topic - the Jurist system. I think they call it "Jurist" because that sounds cooler than juror. Also, this makes me wonder what the 12 people are doing in the courtroom to begin with? They've been there this whole time - I mean you see them talking to each other, the judge has to bang his gavel to get order, etc. So these people are just....what, an audience? I guess so, even though that seems out of place. I guess that gives Klavier people to play to, though.I thought the 12 people that they show in the courtroom was just an audience. Aren't trials typically open to the public? The jurors are said to be watching the trial from another room, on camera.

Again, don't get the hate for Klavier. The final exchanges between him and his brother are pretty extraordinary. It's absolutely clear that Klavier doesn't Fuck around when it comes to the truth, and he constantly pins down Kristoph's subtle-but-powerfully-effective argument tactics. Klavier is detecting the slightest deviation in his brother. That's something to commend. I think the one thing I don't like about the whole "truth-seeking" is that you're a prosecutor. Your detectives give you their analysis of the evidence, and you work with them to establish your version of the truth, THEN you make the arrest and bring him to trial.
So here comes cool Klavier, who seems to trust you more than his own detectives. He even makes fun of Ema in Case 3 for not knowing of Machi's blindness! That whole thing just makes it a lot less fun to play against. You don't feel the pressure of trying to prove your version of the case. You don't necessarily need backhanded evidence-faking, testimony-concealing to do that. And I also hated how Klavier helped you because it never felt like you really won.

Perceive System - I like it, but .... does no one (in terms of the prosecution and judge) think it's weird that Apollo gets to use that as an effective means of discerning the truth? I did have a problem with that. I mean he says things like "Oh you are sweating, that means you are lying." It's a good system, and I like the eerieness of it, but they need to explain it better.Some of it was nice. I like it in Case 2. When that chick was grabbing her neck and you force her to take off the scarf. But usually it's pretty dumb and stuff like you said.

Regarding case 2 - Someone asked about how Wocky had a gun, but that "he couldn't because the girl had it." They say pretty clearly that two guns were removed from the mansion the night of the murder. The girl could have stolen the first one from Wocky, and he could have gotten the second.
Aw dang. I missed that. I thought there was only one gun for some reason, maybe I fell asleep at that part.

[Mr. Beef]

I was going to quote your post, Strell, but after reading the novel you wrote in that spoiler, I think it'd be wiser to just make a spoiler tag of my own.

Not to sound defensive or anything right off the bat, but I'm not entirely sure it was me questioning Lami's involvement in the final case. I think I tried answering someone else's question, but that's nothing too important. I actually had no problem with that, and thought it was a nice twist. Basically, after a while, I've had a lot of time to really think about AJ, and I think I'm getting out of my "this game stinks" mentality.

I still think the last case isn't all that great, gameplay-wise, but that's merely a comparison issue. I (and some other people, too) need to stop comparing it to PW3, since that game was the end of a trilogy, so of course the final case of the final game is going to be something no one will ever forget. We have here AJ's first game, so I'm willing to cut him a bit of slack, even if I'm not the biggest fan of the last case here.

The Mason system, even though I hear that it's reviled among some fans, was actually one of my favorite parts of the entire game for many of the same reasons you put down, Strell. Solving cases and getting answers for some lingering questions from the past and present, plus getting Phoenix some peace of mind, was extremely gratifying. I know I can't be the only one who got chills when Kristoph's black Psyche-Locks popped up. And when the incriminating envelope was found in his cell? I think my eyes were ready to pop out of my head. So why do I keep saying that I'm not a fan of the last case?

To be honest, it's just a letdown. There's all of this buildup, all this excitement that's given to you. You find out about how Vera forged paintings, and how she may or may not have killed her father. They have hidden paintings of all of AJ's cases (which, if I'm not mistaken, is never really explained). Vera and her dad are made to look mysterious until you beat the Mason System. Then the final court session starts up....and it's extremely short. I think I presented maybe...3 items, and it was over. Don't get me wrong, the court session is actually somewhat long, thanks to lots of story development with AJ and the Gavins, but I was expecting to have to present all or most of the evidence I had found before the last session. I understand that most of it was to be used in the MS, but to not use any of it during the last session? To me, that was a letdown.

I also touched on how I didn't like Klavier, and I stick by that. However, I think it's also another unfair comparison issue with me disliking him. Godot was by far my favorite prosecutor (yes, even more than Edgey), so it's blatantly unfair to compare Klavier to him. I do like how Klavier sticks to his guns, even with his air-guitaring. My major gripe with him, however, is that he keeps helping you. Most of the time, when AJ is pinned by someone's lie, Klavier steps in and helps out AJ with a nice hint, or reveals something to you, and then you're free to go on! This is made more obvious in the last court session, but to be fair, he's also trying to stick it to Kristoph. Klavier helping out AJ in court was something I was not a fan of, and it really hurt Klavier's image in my eyes.

Finally, this is merely something minor that bugged me, but when Phoenix lost his case and his badge, where was Edgeworth or the Feys? I mean, like Strell reminded us, the Gramarye case was guaranteed to make news, win or lose. So when Phoenix lost and was punished for it, I'm sure that they must've gotten wind of it. To say that they were kept out of the loop is simply idiotic.

I think that's everything I wanted to say, although knowing my memory, I'm almost certain that I forgot something.

[RollingSkull]

Walls of red text. Aieeee!

I'll never like Case 4.

My problem with Kristoph is a collection of things. First, his motive is stupid. It borders on insanity and can be played for a creepy evil... but it never went that way. The entire game, he was built up like a criminal mastermind. This moron who talks too much is one of the biggest hotshot Defense Attorneys out there? Somehow he finds the time to stalk a plot device reporter? How does he forge evidence if he KEEPS KILLING HIS FORGERS?

If they had played him intelligently, I could've handled it. But this man is not Gant (Hell, take away Gant's style and police corruption, and his crime is pretty dumb in and of itself, but he had a compelling motive.). This man is not von Karma. Hell, this man isn't even fit to lick Ini/Mimi Miney's shoes. I can go on, but that's beside the point. His crime was stupid and random and barely worth the level of respect he got. He needed to be ACTUALLY depicted as functionally insane for his story to work, instead of having the most innane final battle all of PW using him just as a plot device metaphor for the jurist system.

Of course, one moron can't ruin a case. I hated the Mason system. Yes, they crafted an excellent story around the Gramarye team of douchebags. But if you think they wrote this story to be a glorified expoisition punctuated by time travel, dimwitted psyche locks, and a plot device journalist WHO JUST HAPPENS TO KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERYONE, you're kidding yourself. The Mason system is obviously a cobbled together frankenstein from the corpse of whatever Case 4 was meant to be without the jurist system and Kristoph stealing and spotlight and chewing the scenery.

And, frankly, the reveal of Misham painting all of Apollo's cases was probably one of most genuinely creepy reveals in all of PW, and of course they waste it with an unsatisfying explanation.

[Strell]

@Kain:
Kristoph's plan to kill Drew was the stamp. Recall that Drew was the one accused of being the forger - that was the story presented to people outside of Kristoph/Drew, and likewise to the only parties privy to that information (Phoenix, the Judge, Klavier). Drew was protecting his daughter the whole time, which means that all the underhanded back-curtain dealings had to match it, even if no one else would ever discover that she was the forger. Therefore, if there was any correspondence after the case, Drew would continue to have to keep up the farce. Hence, the stamp would have been used by him. Vera saving it was a total coincidence, as was (apparently) Drew's death from it seven years later.

As for Lami, I swear that she says during your first meeting with her that she originally didn't like Borginia, which is why she understands English. That had set off a huge red flag in my head at the time, which didn't really see conclusion until the very end of case 4. Point being is that she probably was an American citizen, which is why she'd be chosen as a potential candidate. However, that goes on the assumption that she. gets her memory back before the case begins, and not during like I suspect. However, that can be explained as well - maybe she applied to citizenship before her memory returned. A bit of a stretch, but it's possible. I don't know if you watch the Simpsons, but in the episode where Apu becomes a citizen, he almost immediately is chosen for jury duty. Besides, since Phoenix is the one choreographing everything, maybe he gets full say on who can and can't serve, which means the rules could be entirely in his hands, at which point there's problem with her being a jurist.


@Beef:
The only way Vera could get information on the cases for her sketches would have to be from some insider source. Since she and Drew are recluses who don't go outside, they couldn't be in the audience. It's possible, however, that Kristoph is allowed to receive information on proceedings, which he could then use to describe to Drew. Can't think of a reason why any of that would happen. Theoretically there could be another person feeding information, but it would be hard to explain a connection.

Differing opinions aside regarding the final case/Klavier, I wanted to say that while I really, really liked Godot, his constant lines about coffee were pretty trite 99% of the time. Sure, there was a good one here and there, but all his crap about "my 17th cup" and whatnot got tired about three minutes in. This could have something to do with the fact that I hate coffee and find the whole culture around it annoying, from people who have to have X cups a day, to having to order it in some specific manner, etc. In the end, I like Godot more than Franziska. Can't say against Edgeworth though...that'd be a toughie.


@Rolling
How do we know Kristoph needs more forgers? For whatever reason, he wanted it for this particular case. Maybe he knew he was going to lose and couldn't handle it. But that doesn't mean he needs a constant supply of forgers. He wanted to kill them off to seal off all the loose ends, but that has absolutely no bearing on whether or not he'd ever need another one. I'd be more concerned with the fact that he found one to begin with - it's obvious he realized what he had and wanted to use it for a specific reason. You're not really making much sense here.

The rest of your case reads out like a child crying on a playground about the line for the slide being too long. You've done this a lot lately, so I'm not quite sure what's under your skin so much.

[Eradicator]

I'll never like Case 4.

And, frankly, the reveal of Misham painting all of Apollo's cases was probably one of most genuinely creepy reveals in all of PW, and of course they waste it with an unsatisfying explanation.

This was indeed a creepy reveal, but I missed the explanation for this - what was it?

[botticus]

Well, that's an interesting change of pace and workflow halfway through Case 4 (I assume). Huh.

[RollingSkull]

@Rolling
How do we know Kristoph needs more forgers? For whatever reason, he wanted it for this particular case. Maybe he knew he was going to lose and couldn't handle it. But that doesn't mean he needs a constant supply of forgers. He wanted to kill them off to seal off all the loose ends, but that has absolutely no bearing on whether or not he'd ever need another one. I'd be more concerned with the fact that he found one to begin with - it's obvious he realized what he had and wanted to use it for a specific reason. You're not really making much sense here.

The rest of your case reads out like a child crying on a playground about the line for the slide being too long. You've done this a lot lately, so I'm not quite sure what's under your skin so much.


Yes, he uses one forger for one case. And then when he ISN'T working on that one case, he uses goes apeshit and ruins the life of the man who now defends that case, murders the forgers he used for that one case, and then stalks everyone involved in that case, the discredited attorney, the "knows everything about everyone involved" reporter for the rest of his days, murdered the defendant of that case, and then went apeshit ONLY WHEN THE TRUTH OF THAT CASE WAS REVEALED and not when he was CONVICTED OF MURDER. If finding that to be a silly contrivance even by Phoenix Wright standards is playground whining, then I don't know what to tell you.

And, what, I haven't even been back here in a month or so.

[pygmy carnotaur]

For case 2
I don't believe there were two guns. The possibility was raised that there could have been two guns, but unless I'm remembering wrong it was never actually proven that two guns were taken from the Kitaki mansion.

The only reason anyone thought Wocky had a gun in the first place is that the witness saw the doctor get shot, and didn't see anyone else around to do it, and then saw Wocky throw "something" down. The "something" he threw down was his knife, which was found at the crime scene with his fingerprints on it.




I'm still sticking with what I said about Klavier before: he's an interesting change of pace, but as a prosecutor he's pretty bad as he offers little challenge. The issue is, unlike most of the prosecutors in these games, he actually wants the truth. Which makes him unique, but doesn't make Apollo's job as hard as it should be.

[botticus]

Finished it up today. Read through some of the Case 4 debate above, but for now I'll just say: It was an interesting change of pace as far as mechanics go, which I ultimately enjoyed. And the conclusion was pretty satisfying for me, but I tend to love all of the endings of AA games, regardless of how much they stretch logic.

[kainzero]

@Kain: As for Lami, I swear that she says during your first meeting with her that she originally didn't like Borginia, which is why she understands English. That had set off a huge red flag in my head at the time, which didn't really see conclusion until the very end of case 4. Point being is that she probably was an American citizen, which is why she'd be chosen as a potential candidate. However, that goes on the assumption that she. gets her memory back before the case begins, and not during like I suspect. However, that can be explained as well - maybe she applied to citizenship before her memory returned. A bit of a stretch, but it's possible. I don't know if you watch the Simpsons, but in the episode where Apu becomes a citizen, he almost immediately is chosen for jury duty. Besides, since Phoenix is the one choreographing everything, maybe he gets full say on who can and can't serve, which means the rules could be entirely in his hands, at which point there's problem with her being a jurist.

well, for one, i wouldn't trust the simpsons timeline =) come on now, there are more episodes than days and yet they're still all the same age.

it's just pretty silly how it plays out and it's too convenient... but not enough were i'd really warrant analysis on it, nor would i think it really has an impact on the story. just a silly observation.


as for the paintings:
while replaying the game, at the start of case 1 it clearly shows vera's father painting. hmmmm.

i actually agree with rollingskull though.
Yes, he uses one forger for one case. And then when he ISN'T working on that one case, he uses goes apeshit and ruins the life of the man who now defends that case, murders the forgers he used for that one case, and then stalks everyone involved in that case, the discredited attorney, the "knows everything about everyone involved" reporter for the rest of his days, murdered the defendant of that case, and then went apeshit ONLY WHEN THE TRUTH OF THAT CASE WAS REVEALED and not when he was CONVICTED OF MURDER. If finding that to be a silly contrivance even by Phoenix Wright standards is playground whining, then I don't know what to tell you.
it wouldn't sound so bad if we really felt kristoph's motive but we never really did. i mean think about what happened to him:
1- he forged evidence to win the trial, planning to kill the forgers and erase his involvement. he failed at that, so now he has to keep tabs on them to make sure they don't reveal his secret.
2- he got dropped by zak, so he gives his forged "winning" evidence to phoenix and makes his bro call it out on phoenix just so he can spite zak. phoenix loses as planned, but zak escapes, so now he has more links to this illegal forged evidence.
3- i forget why he spies on brushel.

anyway, he must now keep tabs to make sure the forged evidence isn't revealed. why? i don't know. it would make sense if there was a severe penalty or something, a secret to hide, well... ANYTHING. and i don't buy this "black psyche-lock to be revealed in the future." man, screw that. conflicts should be resolved within the game. one of the cool things about PW 3-5 was that it made the older cases shine a lot better... but at the same time, all the cases that were related to it were finished completely and just added on to later. that's how it should be.

he sure is pretty evil but with no good motive, it's hard to really take him seriously.

[Mr. Beef]

@kain: He spied on Brushel because Brushel was always in contact with Zak.

[RollingSkull]

it wouldn't sound so bad if we really felt kristoph's motive but we never really did. i mean think about what happened to him:
1- he forged evidence to win the trial, planning to kill the forgers and erase his involvement. he failed at that, so now he has to keep tabs on them to make sure they don't reveal his secret.
2- he got dropped by zak, so he gives his forged "winning" evidence to phoenix and makes his bro call it out on phoenix just so he can spite zak. phoenix loses as planned, but zak escapes, so now he has more links to this illegal forged evidence.
3- i forget why he spies on brushel.

anyway, he must now keep tabs to make sure the forged evidence isn't revealed. why? i don't know. it would make sense if there was a severe penalty or something, a secret to hide, well... ANYTHING. and i don't buy this "black psyche-lock to be revealed in the future." man, screw that. conflicts should be resolved within the game. one of the cool things about PW 3-5 was that it made the older cases shine a lot better... but at the same time, all the cases that were related to it were finished completely and just added on to later. that's how it should be.

he sure is pretty evil but with no good motive, it's hard to really take him seriously.

You're missing the most headache-inducing part of this. There is nothing to be revealed in the future. The black psyche locks WERE disguising the secret that Kristoph offed Zak to cover his forgery crime, which was still important enough to cover up WHILE HE WAS IN PRISON. That's pretty much it. You'd think that Engarde would have PLATINUM RARITANIUM FUSED PSYCHE LOCKS for his secret at Case 2-4.

[Strell]

You're missing the most headache-inducing part of this. There is nothing to be revealed in the future. The black psyche locks WERE disguising the secret that Kristoph offed Zak to cover his forgery crime, which was still important enough to cover up WHILE HE WAS IN PRISON. That's pretty much it. You'd think that Engarde would have PLATINUM RARITANIUM FUSED PSYCHE LOCKS for his secret at Case 2-4.

You can't prove that.

Like I proposed, you can't know for a fact that we'll never hear from Kristoph's past in future installments.

I won't even say it is likely that we won't. I am pointing out that the fulcrum your argument rests on doesn't exist.

[RollingSkull]

You can't prove that.

Like I proposed, you can't know for a fact that we'll never hear from Kristoph's past in future installments.

I won't even say it is likely that we won't. I am pointing out that the fulcrum your argument rests on doesn't exist.

Excuse me?

So he's going to have a third breakdown when we finally found out his TRUE TRUE secret? The one that he would rather receive the death penalty and lose all he'd worked for than divulge?

The fulcrum of my argument is not that "We won't see him again in the next game." The fulcrum of my argument is that this entire affair is made up of weak, watery, unsatisfying writing, and to play this out into a sequel in such a clumsy way just PROVES my point.

[Strell]

So he's going to have a third breakdown when we finally found out his TRUE TRUE secret? The one that he would rather receive the death penalty and lose all he'd worked for than divulge?

It's already happened a few times in this series. I fail to see why it couldn't again.


The fulcrum of my argument is that this entire affair is made up of weak, watery, unsatisfying writing, and to play this out into a sequel in such a clumsy way just PROVES my point.

It doesn't prove your point at all. It would prove an over-arching story that's spanning different games and as such, we might only be at the introductory phase. At which point, whatever is being toyed around with now might be child's play compared to whatever dark secrets could always be revealed.

Who thought - during PW1 - that all the events mentioned in various cases would have culminated in the fireworks found in PW3-5? Don't pretend you saw that coming - no one did.

I didn't say your fulcrum was that we wouldn't see him in future games - I even met you halfway in suggesting we might never see him again. But you're really dragging out one tired little point of your opinion as fact for games we can only assume are being worked on right now, which only now is some sort of hybrid "I hated the case" and "I'm predicting I'll hate anything else said about it since it would prove my hatred."

[kainzero]

It doesn't prove your point at all. It would prove an over-arching story that's spanning different games and as such, we might only be at the introductory phase. At which point, whatever is being toyed around with now might be child's play compared to whatever dark secrets could always be revealed.

Who thought - during PW1 - that all the events mentioned in various cases would have culminated in the fireworks found in PW3-5? Don't pretend you saw that coming - no one did.

But when you finished the cases in PW1, PW2, etc... they were all done. Except for 2-2 when Pearl's mom swore revenge on Maya, and maybe in case 1-4 when Misty Fey was nowhere to be found yet implied not to be dead there was nothing that even hinted that there was really more to it. Either way, I thought 1-2/1-4 and 2-2 had satisfying conclusions. Imagine that 3-1 was in the second game instead of the third. That would be terrible.

4-4 spoilers:
The fact that there's a mystery over these stupid black psyche locks is just bad writing. We're even confused if it's solved already or not (when I finished AJ, I thought what Rolling thought... and didn't think it to be implied to appear in a sequel.

I was wholly welcome to the fact that there would be new characters, but I still hated how Phoenix seemed to randomly call out your boss in case 1; come on! we just met the guy!, and the seemingly weak prosecutor in Klavier. There has to be more than just saying Herr Forehead and Achtung and randomly rocking out, then helping you out.
It's ironic too, because I hated how Case 1 and to some extent, how Case 4 played out, but I really liked the writing in Case 2 and 3, the normal "filler" cases. Progressing through those cases showed that they could still write a good mystery =)

[Strell]

Good god. You people.

You could link together cases in PW1, 2, and 3 quite easily. Look at PW1-4, to a small extent PW1-5, PW2-2, PW3-1, PW3-4, and PW3-5. They all play a part into a bigger whole.

If Capcom is willing to tie together that much over that far, then I fail to see why they couldn't be doing the same thing here. The only difference is that we - as veteran players of the series - might pick up on it a lot quicker since we're getting used to the tricks these games employ.

All I'm really saying is that some of you are jumping the gun WAY too quickly, and are condemning something you have no idea about other than some very short projections.

[Mr. Beef]

I'm actually looking forward to the next 2 AJ games, mainly because I know that when Apollo and Trucy find out that Lami is their mother, and that they're siblings, the shit is going to hit the fan. Also, I'm somewhat inclined to agree with Strell when it comes to Kristoph.

[kainzero]

Good god. You people.

You could link together cases in PW1, 2, and 3 quite easily. Look at PW1-4, to a small extent PW1-5, PW2-2, PW3-1, PW3-4, and PW3-5. They all play a part into a bigger whole.

If Capcom is willing to tie together that much over that far, then I fail to see why they couldn't be doing the same thing here. The only difference is that we - as veteran players of the series - might pick up on it a lot quicker since we're getting used to the tricks these games employ.

All I'm really saying is that some of you are jumping the gun WAY too quickly, and are condemning something you have no idea about other than some very short projections.
I'm not denying the links to other cases, and PW3-1 and PW3-4 were obviously in the same game as the conclusive link between them all, PW3-5, so they're technically "in the same book." And yet, 3-1 could serve itself perfectly as a standalone case.

The main difference was that 1-4 and 2-2 provided satisfying conclusions and closed ends to all the key points within their respective cases. That's how storytelling should be done... not like, say, Xenosaga I, where they talk about a bunch of crap they don't explain in the beginning and then you have to go find it out as you watch.

4-4 spoilers:
Lamiroir being Thalassa, yet not telling Trucy or Apollo. That's fine. It's not that relevant to the actual case and provides a mystery to be solved in future games.
Let's say Rolling (and my initial evaluation) was right, and the black psyches were the secret that he was the mastermind behind the underhanded dealings of the Gramarye case. In that case, I find his motive weak and it underscores the weak finish to what could've been an epic case.
But, now, let's say Strell's right. Well, with this deep dark secret that REALLY explains 4-4, we're now left with a subpar conclusion. Instead of a weak motive, we now have NO motive. And as Ace Attorney has taught us, motive is essential to understanding any case =)

[RollingSkull]

Good god. You people.

You could link together cases in PW1, 2, and 3 quite easily. Look at PW1-4, to a small extent PW1-5, PW2-2, PW3-1, PW3-4, and PW3-5. They all play a part into a bigger whole.

If Capcom is willing to tie together that much over that far, then I fail to see why they couldn't be doing the same thing here. The only difference is that we - as veteran players of the series - might pick up on it a lot quicker since we're getting used to the tricks these games employ.

All I'm really saying is that some of you are jumping the gun WAY too quickly, and are condemning something you have no idea about other than some very short projections.

Yes, but 3-1 was not 1-1. Redd White was defeated as quickly as he was introduced. Dahlia was brought in as the villain only in the same game where she was defeated.

The events of games 1 and 2 set up a backstory, yes, but I don't believe that they had 3-5 even envisioned when they finished AA1. You'll never convince me of that.

What Kainzero said is right on the money. There are two possibilities. Kristoph's black psyche locks hid that he provided the false evidence and is a psychopath. As stated before, this reveal hardly merited a second court battle. He has no motive to be so petty and vindictive to someone he met maybe twice. PW's writing has always had elegant, logical motives to their criminals. For them to have such a sudden shift is just silly, and weakens the storytelling since the painted him as knowing what he was doing at all times.

The alternative? The motive for what he did this game isn't revealed until the next. Despite the game's apparently "happily ever after" ending, we have a cliffhanger that doesn't even resolve the plot's of THIS game's cases.

[Strell]

The main difference was that 1-4 and 2-2 provided satisfying conclusions and closed ends to all the key points within their respective cases. That's how storytelling should be done

This is why it's getting difficult to respond to you and Rolling. You're both thinking way too narrow for all of this.

First off, 2-2 ended with a HUGE loose end, which was ...whatever that old Fey woman was named sitting in jail, with her scary white eyes, talking about how she was going to plot revenge. And it took until PW3-5, but it happened - she managed to wrought some powerful evil later on, all from the coziness of her internment.

It was completely out of the blue, but it made total sense. (Though, I still wanted to find out Dahlia had actually escaped from jail instead of all the voodoo spirit channeling, but I'll take what I can get.) And there were no clues in between that would even begin to suggest what would happen would happen - we only then - in case 3-5 - that Pearl was getting letters from her, that this elaborate plan was coming to fruition, etc.

And again - the big thing you missed from all those cases I linked up there - was the whole thing about...um...the original Fey master. Maya's mom. (I'm not going to look them up.) They make allusions all over the place to the case you first explore in PW1-4, which is ...what, DS9? I can't remember. It's the one where they called in the spirit medium and then decided she wasn't truthful/permissible, which caused her exile.

And then there's tons of references to it, but we never get a satisfying conclusion until PW3-5. That's one hell of a story arc to keep just barely alive and continually allude to, only to have it finally crash down and finally be done at the end of the trilogy.

Poor story-telling is kind of a misnomer as far as that is all concerned, because they could have just left things as they are, and most people wouldn't have noticed or bothered to want to see if anything else would happen concerning all of those events. Likewise, they could have offered up a crappy explanation at any time. But instead - proper story-telling in tow - they wrap it all up quite nicely in one hell of a case.


4-4 spoilers:

Let's say Rolling (and my initial evaluation) was right, and the black psyches were the secret that he was the mastermind behind the underhanded dealings of the Gramarye case. In that case, I find his motive weak and it underscores the weak finish to what could've been an epic case.
But, now, let's say Strell's right. Well, with this deep dark secret that REALLY explains 4-4, we're now left with a subpar conclusion. Instead of a weak motive, we now have NO motive. And as Ace Attorney has taught us, motive is essential to understanding any case =)

Again, too narrow thinking. There's not only two options here. You guys are convinced these black psyches have only to do with 4-4, and as I said previously, there's a lot of potential market for them to shop around to explain those. Kristoph was an attorney for a good while - he had his own agency. That's plenty of time for him to pull off all kinds of heinous stuff.

And again, "no/weak motive." I find it hard to discuss this with people in this thread when EVERYONE but me had already pegged his motives incorrectly as some sort of "omfg Kristoph was teh slighted by Zak and can haz be angries" explanation. Which - as I said at length a while ago - is entirely off base.

There's absolutely no reason - no reason - why the black psyches might not be explored until later, and that they could be the culmination of lots of things we don't know about yet. And again, I'm even meeting you halfway and willing to agree that they might NEVER visit him again, but I'm saying the opportunity is there.

Want an example? Fine. Where did Apollo come from? We don't know much about his past other than the small clues left at the end of AJ. Who's to say Kristoph doesn't have a hand in the 22 years (or however old AJ is) of life pre-attorney? That could be a huge can of worms waiting to be sprung.

The big problem I'm having with your arguments is that you are so hellbent on assuming the black psyches only have anything to do with the final case, and that because of that, only certain conclusions can be drawn. And since you're doing that, you're making it way too easy for both of you to throw your hands up and call the cases nonsense already, when there's very little reason to do so other than your own opinions.


The events of games 1 and 2 set up a backstory, yes, but I don't believe that they had 3-5 even envisioned when they finished AA1. You'll never convince me of that.


Having done some writing myself, I can agree to this. It's like how I don't actually think J.K. Rowling had book 7 of Harry Potter written out like she says, or (and I saw this in an interview a long time ago) that she had written the final epilogue in full before she finished the first book, and thus knew about a lot of characters who didn't show up until books 3 or later.

However, there's nothing that says they couldn't have written 3-5 with every intention of placing it into PW2, and then someone said "no let's hold off and try to build it up more" and let it wait out until PW3. In other words, since we have no idea when everything was written, it's entirely possible the scenarios were written all at once, and then someone suggested spacing them out and using the added time to make references to further deepen the entangling web between everything. You'll never convince me that they didn't.

You're also ...taking a lot of the opponents for granted and acting like they were all criminal masterminds. Half of them were doing shit for "dumb" reasons, be it money or power or fame (Gant comes to mind). I fail to see how they are any different than Kristoph (with some obvious exceptions). I know you made some grandiose comparison a little while ago that Kristoph can't compare to anyone, but that's just silly.

And again, it sounds like you're dismissing his motives. Again. Again. Even when I made it really clear that the assumptions everyone had about them were way off course.

[soccerstud652]

Just started playing this for the first time, and I was VERY skeptical about how it would compare to the original trilogy.

I am shocked that PW is a main character after all. And I like Trucy was better than Maya for some reason. Air guitar Klavin? Not as cool as Edgy, but not bad either. Gumshoe is missed, whats her face from case 5 of 1 is boring.

[RollingSkull]

First off, 2-2 ended with a HUGE loose end, which was ...whatever that old Fey woman was named sitting in jail, with her scary white eyes, talking about how she was going to plot revenge. And it took until PW3-5, but it happened - she managed to wrought some powerful evil later on, all from the coziness of her internment.

Less of a loose end and more of a sequel possibility. Morgan and Ini had had their respective plots unraveled and tied up in a nice package. Calling that a "HUGE loose end" is like calling every episode of Inspector Gadget ending on a loose end. "NEXT TIME, GADGET. NEXT TIME!"

It was completely out of the blue, but it made total sense. (Though, I still wanted to find out Dahlia had actually escaped from jail instead of all the voodoo spirit channeling, but I'll take what I can get.) And there were no clues in between that would even begin to suggest what would happen would happen - we only then - in case 3-5 - that Pearl was getting letters from her, that this elaborate plan was coming to fruition, etc.

And again - the big thing you missed from all those cases I linked up there - was the whole thing about...um...the original Fey master. Maya's mom. (I'm not going to look them up.) They make allusions all over the place to the case you first explore in PW1-4, which is ...what, DS9? I can't remember. It's the one where they called in the spirit medium and then decided she wasn't truthful/permissible, which caused her exile.

And then there's tons of references to it, but we never get a satisfying conclusion until PW3-5. That's one hell of a story arc to keep just barely alive and continually allude to, only to have it finally crash down and finally be done at the end of the trilogy.Yes, it is a hell of a story arc, but it is kept in the background in all the games that it isn't relevant. Misty Fey's disappearance? Rarely spoken of in any sense outside of being an clarifier for what is happening in the current case. White's persecution of the Feys. von Karma's villainy... Hell, the reason for Misty's disappearance is explicit. The only plot point to resolve there is that she has to come back for the final case. They could've made six or seven more PW games and only to have Misty not show up until PW9 and the only problem with that is that she's a little late on the timing.

And again, "no/weak motive." I find it hard to discuss this with people in this thread when EVERYONE but me had already pegged his motives incorrectly as some sort of "omfg Kristoph was teh slighted by Zak and can haz be angries" explanation. Which - as I said at length a while ago - is entirely off base.I didn't find your case convincing then and I still don't now. Perhaps the fact that EVERYONE but you came to this conclusion should say something about the game.

There's absolutely no reason - no reason - why the black psyches might not be explored until later, and that they could be the culmination of lots of things we don't know about yet. And again, I'm even meeting you halfway and willing to agree that they might NEVER visit him again, but I'm saying the opportunity is there.

Want an example? Fine. Where did Apollo come from? We don't know much about his past other than the small clues left at the end of AJ. Who's to say Kristoph doesn't have a hand in the 22 years (or however old AJ is) of life pre-attorney? That could be a huge can of worms waiting to be sprung.

The big problem I'm having with your arguments is that you are so hellbent on assuming the black psyches only have anything to do with the final case, and that because of that, only certain conclusions can be drawn. And since you're doing that, you're making it way too easy for both of you to throw your hands up and call the cases nonsense already, when there's very little reason to do so other than your own opinions.We're not assuming jack shit. We're operating off of the information given to us by the game. PW's storytelling is generally free of curve balls, especially considering how often they will explicitly spell things out. The LACK of any "unanswered questions" brought up in the game itself is pretty close to concrete proof of there being no unanswered questions. The black psyche locks popped up when Kristoph was asked why he killed Zak, which we answered in court, complete with violent breakdown by Kristoph and Kristoph talking at LENGTH about how furious he was that Zak chose Phoenix. So yes, the possibilities are very limited. The conclusion I am coming to IS the one supported most by the game itself. If appealing to the game itself is being narrow-minded, then I'd hate to see your definition of open-minded.

Besides, if you expect Kristoph to come back for AA5, then you better be ready to suck down a huge bowl of retcons and spirit channeling.

[Strell]

I didn't find your case convincing then and I still don't now. Perhaps the fact that EVERYONE but you came to this conclusion should say something about the game.

No. It says something about my ability to discern character, motive, and detail, as well as everyone else's lack of that ability.

Sorry, but when the first complaint (made in this thread) was wrong and then everyone agreed to it, it's obvious at that point no one was paying attention, since there was a breakdown of 1) not understanding the game correctly, and 2) no one raising an objection to the paltry explanation in the thread. I'm not stopping any of you from actually reading the material that was there, nor is the game. And the fact that I came to the right conclusion says a lot more than it implies.

Getting it wrong is absolute in this case - you all had it wrong. Blaming the game is simply blaming an outside party. Don't condescend to me and my understanding of what happening simply because you've got to eat a big slice of humble pie, but still rail against my explanation. That's bullshit and you know it. It would be one thing if both possibilities were true, but that's not the case here, so you - and everyone else who agreed - have absolutely no ground to stand on. You were all wrong. It is that concise.

We're not assuming jack shit. We're operating off of the information given to us by the game. PW's storytelling is generally free of curve balls, especially considering how often they will explicitly spell things out.

You've said this a lot in this thread, and I've really tried to ignore it, but you're off base here entirely.

PW has always had...sensationalistic and stylized writing that requires explicit explanation, and that is because the ultimate answers are usually so outside-the-box and wild. I've been able to find problems with a lot of the cases in the past, and I'm sure I'll find more problems in future cases. There's always a weak point somewhere in every case that could be debated or argued over. The only difference is that the game basically tosses out that weak point in favor of its own explanation, which works on a distraction level.

In other words, there have been times in the cases where I've sat there and thought, "You know, X isn't really possible" or "Y really isn't being adequately explained to me here," and the only reason the game can get around those points is that is serves up a wtf explanation in a very direct (if potentially flawed) way. I mean honestly, there's been those moments where everyone is thinking "there is no way that works." For example, in PW3, when you find a pamplet in the diner in case 3? You mean the police didn't find it for an entire month? To say nothing of the whole fake-Phoenix Wright thing, which took me so far out of my suspense of belief I got a nosebleed.

It's never been clean-cut and calculated. You've assumed that point out of nowhere and acted like this is the one case that breaks it, and that couldn't be any more wrong.


The LACK of any "unanswered questions" brought up in the game itself is pretty close to concrete proof of there being no unanswered questions.

Big, big assumption. Huge.


The black psyche locks popped up when Kristoph was asked why he killed Zak, which we answered in court, complete with violent breakdown by Kristoph and Kristoph talking at LENGTH about how furious he was that Zak chose Phoenix. So yes, the possibilities are very limited. The conclusion I am coming to IS the one supported most by the game itself. If appealing to the game itself is being narrow-minded, then I'd hate to see your definition of open-minded.

See above answer. Requires addition: see above answer again.


Besides, if you expect Kristoph to come back for AA5, then you better be ready to suck down a huge bowl of retcons and spirit channeling.

I'm really getting tired of this bullshit incendiary nonsense you're aiming at me, especially when I've said - and done, multiple times - that I agree to meet you halfway on a lot of your points. And you haven't done any of that with anything I've said, even when I've demonstrated that everyone's thinking can be way off base about lots of widely-accepted theories (Kristoph's motives come to mind, which you STILL think are nothing more than "omfg he doesnt wants to play poker with me").

Quit sitting there and acting like I'm not willing to agree that Kristoph might never come back - I've already said we might never see him again.

But again, it's way narrow to think some new element/explanation/history/case/evidence can't be introduced at some point in a future game to give light to the unanswered questions. Who in the hell thought - for example - after PW1 that you'd be channeling spirits in PW2/3? No one. Not one damn person in the world did, with the exception of Americans who could have looked up the stories for the sequels before playing the first one. And that doesn't count.

[kainzero]

No. It says something about my ability to discern character, motive, and detail, as well as everyone else's lack of that ability.

Sorry, but when the first complaint (made in this thread) was wrong and then everyone agreed to it, it's obvious at that point no one was paying attention, since there was a breakdown of 1) not understanding the game correctly, and 2) no one raising an objection to the paltry explanation in the thread. I'm not stopping any of you from actually reading the material that was there, nor is the game. And the fact that I came to the right conclusion says a lot more than it implies.

Getting it wrong is absolute in this case - you all had it wrong. Blaming the game is simply blaming an outside party. Don't condescend to me and my understanding of what happening simply because you've got to eat a big slice of humble pie, but still rail against my explanation. That's bullshit and you know it. It would be one thing if both possibilities were true, but that's not the case here, so you - and everyone else who agreed - have absolutely no ground to stand on. You were all wrong. It is that concise.
The only reason I'm posting here is to have a discussion on case 4 and why it didn't have a good feel to it. I based my argument on Kristoph's shaky motive; it wasn't believable or strong and the case really hinges on it. That's what everything comes down to.

Let's start from the top and I'll respond as I go along. If I read Rollingskull's posts right, this is what we're debating.

My argument: Kristoph's motive to start the evidence faking and the stalking / killing Zak is not well defined, making for a much less interesting case than it could have been.

Arguments:

1 - Money and fame as mentioned in the game.
counterpoint: If this is true, it isn't really well written because I personally couldn't see how it was such a big deal.
ccp: Other villains such as Gant did not have strong motives.
cccp: While I can admit that his plan required incredible foresight in a short time period, his motive was still pretty clear. Gain power to prosecute criminals by controlling the PD and the Attorney's Office and never be caught short-handed on evidence.

2 - Black psyche locks may be explained later to prove Kristoph's motive.
counterpoint: If this is true, then I dislike how the game proceeds. I believe Kristoph's motive is the backbone, the heart and soul of this case and it ends on an unsatisfying note until it could be fully resolved.
ccp: Many of the old PW cases featured loose ends.
cccp: None of the loose ends were ever as big as this, and most of them were just minor details in a large case. Misty's disappearance, and Pearl's mother threatening revenge were not particular mysteries that were essential to solve the cases they were in. To omit Kristoph's motive to be solved later is a huge stamp to lick. (GET IT?! HAHAH no. that was terrible.) =)

That's all I've been trying to wrap my head around. Nothing else. Whether things happen in future games is up to the future games, I'm not really concerned about that, those happen when they do.

[RollingSkull]

The only reason I'm posting here is to have a discussion on case 4 and why it didn't have a good feel to it. I based my argument on Kristoph's shaky motive; it wasn't believable or strong and the case really hinges on it. That's what everything comes down to.

Let's start from the top and I'll respond as I go along. If I read Rollingskull's posts right, this is what we're debating.

Well, I've got a wide variety of theses, but most of them stem from the fact that, given the game and what I've read about the writers' being forced to include the jury system and Phoenix, that Kristoph just is not a convincing villain.

My argument: Kristoph's motive to start the evidence faking and the stalking / killing Zak is not well defined, making for a much less interesting case than it could have been.

Arguments:

1 - Money and fame as mentioned in the game.
counterpoint: If this is true, it isn't really well written because I personally couldn't see how it was such a big deal.
ccp: Other villains such as Gant did not have strong motives.
cccp: While I can admit that his plan required incredible foresight in a short time period, his motive was still pretty clear. Gain power to prosecute criminals by controlling the PD and the Attorney's Office and never be caught short-handed on evidence.

See, I'd also add that disproportionate response to slight infractions is a PW standard... just see Manfred von Karma. But at least with Manfred, we have at least a sense of how crazy about his record he was... that the slight on his record caused him to be utterly filled with rage, unable to see or think for the next several minutes in a childish tantrum that eventually led to the murder and his dramatically beautiful but realistically stupidly overwrought plan for revenge.

I'd allow it though because he looks like Salieri on steroids, and I dig an Amadeus reference.

I really don't get what they were trying to do with Kristoph. Trying to make him the devil incarnate, while only really being evil with regard to that case. Even von Karma seemed like a character. Kristoph seemed like a plot device.

[spiwak]

Just started this today. Finished the first case and am now in the first day of the second. Glad to see Phoenix Wright is a main character, although his existence now is depressing.

I really fucking loved T&T (I think most everyone did, though), and I loved how he finally got some love with Iris at the end, so it's a shame that doesn't appear to have carried forward in this game. Love the character designs and this Perceive system (only used it the one time, so far)....and Trucy is great (way less annoying than Maya.

[pete5883]

Finished this today, loved the last case. How come you don't get any background images for the cases as you beat them, like in the first 3 games?

[DarkKnightCecil]

No idea but they didn't have an extra image for case 5 on the original game.

[Doomed]

Finished this today, loved the last case. How come you don't get any background images for the cases as you beat them, like in the first 3 games?
Capcom is lazy and didn't want to make any new art. The first three games had art already made.

[Monsta Mack]

Just got this game. A little late but my budget is dry till Christmas and decided this would be the best bang for my buck out there.

It's funny because the last case of in Trials and Tribulations actually made me run out and buy this game because it was so good.

Is there any release date on the Edgeworth game?

[DarkKnightCecil]

Hey, just wanted to let you know they referenced this in Star Force 2 when lady vega sends the EM warriors to Earth and talk ot the girls in Foodtopia at Grizzly Resort one says "Get away from my Snakoos"

[hmmmm]

You've all mentioned how Klavier isn't scary enough-- well, you know how Edgeworth starts out overly competitive and slowly gains principles? What if Klavier does the opposite in future games: he starts getting embarrassed by all the losing he's doing, and he becomes cynical and unprincipled with age? It happens often enough to lawyers-- the idealism they had right out of law school never lasts (see the typical John Grisham protagonist). Then Apollo could 'bring him back from the dark side' or something.

[Mr. 420]

Just about to finish justice for all and it was terrible compared to the first.
Hopefully apollo and trials and tribs are a lot better than the crap i just went through/ i have part 3 and still don't want to pay more than 15 for apollo. Apollo is alot better than Justice for all?

[Doomed]

Just about to finish justice for all and it was terrible compared to the first.
Hopefully apollo and trials and tribs are a lot better than the crap i just went through/ i have part 3 and still don't want to pay more than 15 for apollo. Apollo is alot better than Justice for all?
Can't say about Apollo (only played first case, which was fun) but T&T is my second favorite game ever. (METAL GEAR SOLID is my favorite at the moment)
The last case of T&T is drawn out, but it is a good case, unlike Farewell, My Turnabout

[Monsta Mack]

Just about to finish justice for all and it was terrible compared to the first.
Hopefully apollo and trials and tribs are a lot better than the crap i just went through/ i have part 3 and still don't want to pay more than 15 for apollo. Apollo is alot better than Justice for all?

Apollo Justice > Justice for all. Justice for All is a decent game but It's pretty lame compared to any Ace Attorney game. Unfortunately, I would say without a former attorneys pressence in Apollo Justice It's not too much better then Justice for All. Apollo is even more green then Phoenix was in the first PW, without much of the personality. Don't plan on getting a deal on this one though, as it was even less produced then Trials and Tribulations from what I've read.