3rd parties are deathly afraid of Nintendo

[jkam]

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/10/11/software-developers-worried-about-the-wii-hesitant-to-make-game/

Software developers worried about the Wii, hesitant to make games

88 Comments by Scott Jon Siegel Oct 11th 2007 12:55PM
Filed under: Nintendo Wii, Business

With shortages possibly running into early 2008, it would appear that the Wii is a clear-cut success in the current generation of consoles. So why are software companies so nervous to develop games for Nintendo's white wonder?

IGN reports on a recent article from The Nikkei Business Daily. After speaking to a number of software houses on the future of the Wii, The Business Daily reveals that several developers, preferring to stay anonymous, expressed concerns over the longevity of the system, and were hesitant to develop games in the event of the Wii's popularity dropping suddenly.

Several houses perceive the motion-sensing Wii as a fad, and believe its success to be ending shortly. This could possibly be in response to the Wii's sales in Japan, which The Nikkei Business Daily reports are at their lowest point since late last year. Several developers also blamed Nintendo for their hesitancy, claiming that the company puts third-party developers at a disadvantage while ensuring the success of first-party titles. It remains to be seen if any of this Wii fear is justifiable, although a lack of third-party confidence is never a good sign for a console manufacturer.

Will this shit ever end? Yeah Nintendo makes some good games...here's an idea, make good games like Nintendo and your games will sell. It's not fucking brain surgery. Who the fuck is running these companies? Did God Of War sales hurt shit bag shit fest game x's sales on the PS2? I think Monster Hunter 3 on the Wii is a pretty good sign that the Wii is safe. If you make a good game on the system you will not spontaneously combust. This shit is so fucking old and tired it is fucking ridiculous. I'm so tired of hearing this shit. If Nintendo made games for the XBOX360 would HALO cease to exist and sell? Why is everyone so fucking scared of Nintendo? Wake the fuck up people!

[Snake2715]

one, two, three, four, five, six. I count six. A bit pissed today are we?

[ArthurDigbySellers]

Can you edit your post about Wii Demos to say that the translation was wrong and that they aren't going to charge for them? Thanks.

[Strell]

We just had a thread about this.

It boils down to the fact that Nintendo does give themselves advantages, but also that third parties are pissed that they can't let their fourth string dev teams port last years shit anymore since Nintendo has achieved a much stronger position in the industry.

Edit: Which doesn't mean that third parties won't still do that - they will. I'm just saying that they'd rather throw some shit out there and cry when it doesn't sell.

And, again, best counterexample: Resident Evil 4. Two year old game, but it has good graphics and good gameplay. Scandelous.

It's not going to change anytime soon, nor stop the bitching.

[MisterHand]

First charging for demos, and now this? What's next -- a delay in the release date for Smash Brothers?

[LinkinPrime]

I think its because Nintendo is allowing a lot of crap games to pass through...Chicken Shoot for instance...whatever happened to "Quality over quantity" All these "budget" games that are flooding the console are making it look bad.

[botticus]

First charging for demos, and now this? What's next -- a delay in the release date for Smash Brothers?:lol:

I approve of the mention that Wii sales are frighteningly low at 168,000 for September. When the PS3 and PS2 are somewhere in the vicinity of 60-70k each. The Wii is a fad!

[Dr Mario Kart]

Alongside this we have that article about 3rd parties shying away from the PS3 because of development cost and marketshare issues.

So they're all developing for the PS2/DS now? I guess thats alright with me, but they cant do it forever.

Alternatively: Home consoles am doomed.

[ryanbph]

:lol:

I approve of the mention that Wii sales are frighteningly low at 168,000 for September. When the PS3 and PS2 are somewhere in the vicinity of 60-70k each. The Wii is a fad!

I don't think it is the total units sold for the month that concerns them, but the drop in total units sold from the previous month..the ps2 & ps3 sales, while low, have remained in the same area for awhile. My belief for awhile has been once the wii hits the 15 - 18 million mark that the monthly sales would have a big drop off. I think that there is at least 15 million die hard nintendo fans that have or plan to scoop the system up. Add another 2 million or so of the alleged new demographic that nintendo is targeting that have already bought it and that would put it in the range of 17 million units. That is just my opinion, I have no proof to back it up, besides the fact that I haven't touched my since last dec. The mario series games don't interest me, only zelda and metroid. I played thru most of twillight princess. I bought it as I was expecting a baby, and figured we could try playing that when she was around 2 years old.

[jkam]

Alright granted it was just a crazy ass rant but seriously, this shit needs to end. Someone should put up posters:

Good games + Wii = $$$
Bad games + Wii = $0

Carry on.

[ringlord]

Alongside this we have that article about 3rd parties shying away from the PS3 because of development cost and marketshare issues.

So they're all developing for the PS2/DS now? I guess thats alright with me, but they cant do it forever.

Alternatively: Home consoles am doomed.

The 360 seems to be doing fine on the 3rd party front.

[Dr Mario Kart]

I generally use a Japan centric perspective, so in that respect I left them out intentionally.

[zewone]

I generally use a Japan centric perspective, so in that respect I left them out intentionally.
Because you live in Japan.

[Dr Mario Kart]

Because I only own one western developed game. Maybe two.

[Scrubking]

Alright granted it was just a crazy ass rant but seriously, this shit needs to end. Someone should put up posters:

Good games + Wii = $$$
Bad games + Wii = $0

Carry on.

Your rant was good. It's how I feel most of the time I browse a forum these days with all of the Wii hate and stupidity. I thought I had seen fanboyism and hate before, from gamers and developers, but since the Wii things have risen to a whole new level of insanity that leads to crazy stories like this.

[zewone]

Because I only own one western developed game. Maybe two.
Did you import all your games from Japan?

No.

[Dr Mario Kart]

and thats relevant how?

Not liking western games leads to not caring about western developers. Not a huge leap

[zewone]

and thats relevant how?
Because the US market should matter more to you.

[help1]

I can tell you that in my household and many other people I know, the Wii was/is a fad. Hell, one of my crazy asian have-a-hard-on-for-Nintendo friends just admitted today that he is bored of the Wii and getting a 360 with Forza and Marvel this weekend. I can see why the developers are hesitant.

However, that isn't to say that the developers didn't dig themselves into their own holes. Had they not tried to push so many ports and crappy games onto the Wii, people would be less reluctant to buy games for the Wii. I have 3 games on the Wii right now, and am only looking at 2 more games, SSBM and Mario Kart. Why? Because the developers have shown me that they are cheap bastards who make shit games, and that when it comes to the Wii, I can only go first party.

[BattleChicken]

It seems like a silly fear, that GOOD first party games will somehow hurt the third party stuff. I really can't fathom that fear.

Look at the SNES generation. The main reason the N64 and cube were so overpowered by great first party games is because thats more or less all there was, VERY low 3rd party support.

I think once some of the bigger name Japanese games, like dragon quest swords, come out on the Wii the 3rd party developers will find their testicles and make games for the Wii.

[Dr Mario Kart]

Because the US market should matter more to you.

Because I live here? Thats it? Surely there are more reasons than that.

This article is from Japan anyway. Originally from The Nikkei Business Daily

[PhoenixT]

I wonder if they mean they position and market their First party games in such a way that it gives them a good edge for selling in the market. Meanwhile they treat third party games are like "oh yeah well this games coming out on our system but hey lets show you mario galaxy one more time!". If the console developer won't help you push your game then a lot of times it goes unheard of especially since a lot of these developers may not have a ton of cash for promoting a new title. I know I see a ton more advertisements for first and second party games from nintendo and next to none for anything else. Save red steel it got a lot of advertising when it first came out mind you it was launch title as well.

[Dr Mario Kart]

I eat Thai food everyday. I guess I should eat American food more. Because I live here.

[dmaul1114]

Because the US market should matter more to you.

Not if you mainly play games from Japanese developers. Success over there matters more in getting good exclusives (or even ports) from big Japanese developers.

Of course it has to sell well enough here for such games to get brought over here though.

[zewone]

Because I live here? Thats it? Surely there are more reasons than that.
How many of your games were bought here, rather than imported from Japan?

If there was no US market, you wouldn't play half the games you do. Your interest in it, should be vested.

[zewone]

Of course it has to sell well enough here for such games to get brought over here though.
Exactly.
I eat Thai food everyday. I guess I should eat American food more. Because I live here.
Over your head, but that's okay. I didn't expect much from you.

[Strell]

This is not something I agree with - and don't want this pushed around - but Nintendo has pretty much survived without third parties for 2 generations now.

On some level, they do not need them.

Gamers do, and that's the difference (and hence why I don't agree with this idea at large).

But the problem is that third parties could ignore Nintendo for a long time, or just do the worst job ever with games for 8-10 years now. They didn't expect the Wii to do what it is doing sales-wise, and now they are complaining that they can't get their foot in the door.

Well, yeah. You played a part in that door being closed for a long time now, so I'm sorry you are trying to run back and cash in without making any effort.

I do think Nintendo needs third parties, as would gamers as a whole. The question is - does Nintendo think it needs third parties?

That's a different thing to consider.

[mykevermin]

Your rant was good. It's how I feel most of the time I browse a forum these days with all of the Wii hate and stupidity. I thought I had seen fanboyism and hate before, from gamers and developers, but since the Wii things have risen to a whole new level of insanity that leads to crazy stories like this.

I don't think that it's fair to equate Wii hate with stupidity. Of course, it is *you* posting, so all's fair, I guess.

I disagree with the idea that Resident Evil 4 is a benchmark that money can be made on remakes, to a degree. It differs from the other Wii shovelware in a number of ways: first, it is a franchise with far more brand appeal than, say, Splinter Cell or Prince of Persia even. Not many franchises can make that claim. More importantly, it was already a big hit before. I don't know how Godfather (which I've read is quite good on Wii), or PoP, or Splinter Cell sold prior to being out on the Wii, but a lukewarm game rereleased almost verbatim, is not going to catch on. The 360 and PS3 got this stuff too: Godfather for $60 on 360/PS3 comes to mind immediately. I'm sure there are other examples.

Most importantly, I believe, is price. Consumers balked at $50 for an identical version of a game that was $20 on PS2/Xbox. RE4, which already had a litany of advantages, MSRP'd at $30. The improvements it offered, like the others, were pretty marginal, but reasonable for $10 more. NOT $30. I don't think RE4 would have sold well at all (better than the other pap, for certain) if it started out at $50.

I don't really blame Nintendo, despite Strell's point about resources. Looking at "Ninjabread Man," "Chicken Shoot," and the like, it's clear that the Wii has little to no quality control in what they allow for the console. They carefully craft their own titles, while lax quality control allows any dickbag developer to sell their crap and try to sucker enough fools in at $50 to turn a profit.

3rd parties are excited to work with Nintendo because of an easy market to enter (thanks to loose restrictions), but they're also (pitifully) afraid of genuinely investing in crafting a game due to said crowded market. I don't know of any example of a console, err..., "overgaming itself to death," and I don't see the Wii being one to start that trend. I do, however, take each and every third party Wii title with a grain of salt.

That said, I did have a remarkably hard time not buying MLB Power Pros this week.

[help1]

Your rant was good. It's how I feel most of the time I browse a forum these days with all of the Wii hate and stupidity. I thought I had seen fanboyism and hate before, from gamers and developers, but since the Wii things have risen to a whole new level of insanity that leads to crazy stories like this.
I just want to refer to your signature.

"Gameplay is what makes a game worth playing - not story or graphics"

I find this signature to be retarded. First, I can understand that graphics do not matter all that much to you, but you claim that gameplay does. Since when have any recent Wii games had good gameplay? The only game my Wii even gets to see right now is Wii sports and now that tech demo is worn out. Next, how can you say that story doesn't tie into gameplay? They go directly hand in hand, with graphics either one step behind or right on pace. Gameplay = the experience of playing a game. Graphics enhance the experience and a story line creates the experience. Thats completely contradictory to what you are saying!

[Dr Mario Kart]

Who said I didnt care about the U.S. market. I have a vested interest in U.S. marketshare. That doesnt mean I have to care about western developers one tiny bit. I can instead focus on how well Japanese developers do in the US market

[dmaul1114]

Exactly.

But still, success in Japan is tantamount, else there is nothing to be brought over.

If it just sold well here, and not in the Japan (like the X-box and 360) then the lineup would lack Japanese games just as the X-boxes have (though the 360 is doing a bit better) despite selling pretty well here.

[ryanbph]

[quote=BattleChicken;3450477]
Look at the SNES generation. The main reason the N64 and cube were so overpowered by great first party games is because thats more or less all there was, VERY low 3rd party support.
quote]

Isn't that a lot of nintendo's own doing. They allegedly were a bitch to deal with, and other platforms came that were competive with the Big N's machine. That is the reason I thought 3rd party support had left Nintendo with the N64 and cube..(also the 64 used the cart instead of disc).

[Strell]

@Myke:

Fair 'nuff.

[dmaul1114]

Sicne when have any recent Wii games had good gameplay?

Metroid Prime 3 kicked all kinds of ass, as did Zelda. Super Paper Mario was ok as well. RE4 kicks ass if you haven't played it elsewhere.

If Wii Sports is your cup of tea, there are plenty of other minigames out there, some of which may appeal to you.

If not, you should sell the Wii it seems to be even less for you than it is for me. :D

[zewone]

But still, success in Japan is tantamount, else there is nothing to be brought over.

If it just sold well here, and not in the Japan (like the X-box and 360) then the lineup would lack Japanese games just as the X-boxes have (though the 360 is doing a bit better) despite selling pretty well here.
I could agree with most of what you're saying, but not about that 360 comment.

The 360 has more "Japanese" style games (JRPGs, simulators, and a ton of Japanese devolpers support (Capcom, Sega, etc.) than I can think of, compared to the Wii and PS3.

[jkam]

3rd parties are excited to work with Nintendo because of a crowded market thanks to loose restrictions, but they're also (pitifully) afraid of genuinely investing in crafting a game due to said crowded market. I don't know of any example of a console, err..., "overgaming itself to death," and I don't see the Wii being one to start that trend. I do, however, take each and every third party Wii title with a grain of salt.



Have you ever really spent some time browsing a very large PS2 section? I realize Nintendo's quality control is non-existent at this point and (some may not realize) the official Nintendo seal of quality is now just the official seal (recent EGM article) but...There are always going to be crappy games on any console that is #1 in market share. At this point until 3rd parties start delivering some truly inspiring non-ported Wii games everything they say is pretty much bullshit.

[botticus]

Have you ever really spent some time browsing a very large PS2 section? I realize Nintendo's quality control is non-existent at this point and (some may not realize) the official Nintendo seal of quality is now just the official seal (recent EGM article) but...There are always going to be crappy games on any console that is #1 in market share. At this point until 3rd parties start delivering some truly inspiring non-ported Wii games everything they say is pretty much bullshit.Hell, Ninjabread Man and that lot of games that were just released on Wii are still just ports of PS2 games that were only released in Europe.

[mykevermin]

Have you ever really spent some time browsing a very large PS2 section?

Nope. Never. I ask GS employees to put six titles in a brown bag and I buy the first one I grab out.

I realize Nintendo's quality control is non-existent at this point and (some may not realize) the official Nintendo seal of quality is now just the official seal (recent EGM article)

It should be semantics, really. I doubt that they really believed, say, anything made by Acclaim, *EVER*, deserved the word "quality" next to it any more than "Chicken Shoot." I wonder why they changed the word.

but...There are always going to be crappy games on any console that is #1 in market share. At this point until 3rd parties start delivering some truly inspiring non-ported Wii games everything they say is pretty much bullshit.

Yes. There are crap 3rd party games on the PS2. And the Xbox. And every system ever, frankly. But even the most ardent (read: Strell) and idiotic (read: Scrubking) Wii-aficionados lament how the Wii is being used as a dumping ground. There are promising 3rd party titles coming for the system, without a doubt. Some developers tried early on (Red Steel, Trauma Center) to make unique titles. For some reason, though, shovelware because the norm. The ratio of shovelware to compelling 3rd party titles is *overwhelming* on the Wii, IMO. That's the point I'm trying to make.

[dmaul1114]

I could agree with most of what you're saying, but not about that 360 comment.

The 360 has more "Japanese" style games (JRPGs, simulators, and a ton of Japanese devolpers support (Capcom, Sega, etc.) than I can think of, compared to the Wii and PS3.

That's why I said it's doing better. Most of the Japanese games it's getting are pretty mediocre--see Blue Dragon.

It's not closing in on getting any big games like Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest etc. and some of the games from companies like Capcom are really western style games--i.e. Dead Rising.

[gkargreen]

This is not something I agree with - and don't want this pushed around - but Nintendo has pretty much survived without third parties for 2 generations now.

On some level, they do not need them.

Gamers do, and that's the difference (and hence why I don't agree with this idea at large).

But the problem is that third parties could ignore Nintendo for a long time, or just do the worst job ever with games for 8-10 years now. They didn't expect the Wii to do what it is doing sales-wise, and now they are complaining that they can't get their foot in the door.

Well, yeah. You played a part in that door being closed for a long time now, so I'm sorry you are trying to run back and cash in without making any effort.

I do think Nintendo needs third parties, as would gamers as a whole. The question is - does Nintendo think it needs third parties?

That's a different thing to consider.

This is soo right on point, Nintendo came out with better hardware for both the N64 and the 'cube, but apparently their arrogance (which they have admitted to) prevented much in th eway of third party support. The design and fabrication of the Wii and DS is such that Nintendo can make money on both the hardware and software, and develop games in-house with minimal expenditure of funds, thus maximizing profits in what was probably perceived as a "going it alone" situation of their own making, one that is no doubt apparent with their arrogance towards online and timely game development. The success of Wii as a gaming machine will not be because of Nintendo, they only care about the money of course (as do all companies), but because of third party games that really work with the controller and as well as possible with the crappy online. I believe that MOH:Heroes 2 will be a determining game as to whether third parties can make really good games for the Wii...

[dmaul1114]

The design and fabrication of the Wii and DS is such that Nintendo can make money on both the hardware and software, and develop games in-house with minimal expenditure of funds, thus maximizing profits in what was probably perceived as a "going it alone" situation of their own making, one that is no doubt apparent with their arrogance towards online and timely game development.

That's definitely it in a nutshell, and it's a good situation for them as it's all straight profit.

Just sucks for any gamers (like myself) who hoped the Wii would have enough real games to keep them satisfied, as that's not looking likely. Even people like myself , who are far from being hardcore gamers in terms of amount of time have/are willing to devote for games look to be hard pressed to be satisfied with just a Wii in the house.

[Krymner]

I believe one major problem that is hurting 3rd parties on the Wii is that they aren't following Nintendo's business model. Nintendo's new mantra for the past couple of years has been to branch out away from the hardcore gamers and start appealing to the more casual gamer and expanding the userbase towards non-tradional gamers.

Nintendo recently released that the DS has a 53% female user base, and the Wii has a 51% female user base. Of course, there has always been women playing video games, but these numbers are probably much higher when you compare them to the female user base of Sony's and MS's consoles. How many average women do you think, if given the choice, would rather play Wii Sports, Halo 3, or Motorstorm?

It has been Nintendo 1st-party titles leading the casual gaming market, and the 3rd parties just follow with similar games. How many Brain Training knock-offs have there been? How many pet sims have followed Nintendogs?

My point is that most 3rd party devs are just doing what they always do and making the same types of games they always have, and only deviating when they see how successful Nintendo is doing by taking chances and creating non-traditional types of games. And its these non-tradional games that are driving sales of the DS and Wii.

Third party devs are just making the same types of games they've been making for the past 10-20 years, just with prettier graphics. This isn't how you build sales and Nintendo realized this several years ago. If 3rd party devs want to create successful games for the Wii, they need to take more chances instead of just doing what they've always done, or making bad clones of Nintendo's 1st-party titles. That's why they make comments like "The Wii is a fad!" because taking chances is full of risk, and they would rather Sony or MS succeed because its safer to go with what's worked in the past than to try something new.

The word of video games is changing. This isn't the same market that existed 10 years ago. Developers need to get off their ass and realize this.

[LinkinPrime]

Krymner...although you make good points the last sentence is totally way off. As a previous Wii owner, I too thought it was great and such, but it wore off, on the other hand, I play my X360 every minute I can....its a blast, not saying that games aren't being inovative anymore but saying that the current formula that's being used still works and its what people play. Gaming can evolve even if its within the same formula....take for instance "Portal" just play a couple minutes of that game and you'll see what I mean...now put it on the Wii and what do you get?...same game with a "light gun" type interface...meh.

[evilmax17]

What's their proposed solution? Politely ask Nintendo to make fewer games, and of lesser quality?

If third parties made Nintendo-caliber games, then they would sell more units. You shouldn't be asking the public to buy your inferior titles.

[mykevermin]

I play my X360 every minute I can.

Yes, because you're either a plant, or the most polite fanboy ever. ;)

That said, I do agree with your point that placing a new interface over the same old games does not dramatically alter the idea of "interaction" and how that effects gamers. It changes it, sure...but do does the sixaxis. Both are unique, but neither revolutionize the industry (as of yet).

I also think that Krymner's citations about females being 51 and 53% of Wii/DS owners is totally incorrect and absurd. I'd be hard pressed to believe that it's even 40%, to be honest. Then again, I was the guy who balked at a researcher in the middle of a presentation when (after I asked him), he claimed that 1 in 5 WOW players was a female (the player, not the character). I don't believe that either. I *DO* believe that female players are increasing, but it's more from "not very many" to "slightly more than that." NOT 50%+. Do any of you think for a second that more females game on the Wii than males?

What's their proposed solution? Politely ask Nintendo to make fewer games, and of lesser quality?

If third parties made Nintendo-caliber games, then they would sell more units. You shouldn't be asking the public to buy your inferior titles.

I'd settle for Nintendo having stricter quality control, instead of *3* versions of "Petz" (horsies and doggies and platypi! Oh MY!) coming out on the same day, personally. But, that's asking Nintendo to cut their bottom line, which is a bad idea. It works for Sony ("please reduce your profit margin, because we're not buying the PS3 until you do"), but it's a wholly different scenario for Nintendo.

But, the argument here doesn't seem (to me, at any rate) to be about the number of crap titles. It's the lack of quality third party games out now, and on the horizon. The complaint here seems to be "hey, would you put out a little *less* shit, and allocate those resources to games that are of superior quality? We're not talking Nintendo caliber, but somewhere between Nintendo and Chicken Shoot." Which is rather reasonable, IMO.

[botticus]

Krymner...although you make good points the last sentence is totally way off. As a previous Wii owner, I too thought it was great and such, but it wore off, on the other hand, I play my X360 every minute I can....its a blast, not saying that games aren't being inovative anymore but saying that the current formula that's being used still works and its what people play. Gaming can evolve even if its within the same formula....take for instance "Portal" just play a couple minutes of that game and you'll see what I mean...now put it on the Wii and what do you get?...same game with a "light gun" type interface...meh.Sure, the formula works, for most of those who have been playing such games for years. But is the formula expanding the base of consumers who buy video games? That is what Nintendo has challenged, and how or when we'll know if they're right remains to be seen.

And myke, I think those numbers of female gamers were from Nintendo, so they've probably got some skewed research somewhere. Maybe counting the moms who bought it for the family? Based on the voting channel, it's strongly skewed towards the male side. Someone who is bored could probably get numbers. But things like males vote 24.7 and 75.3, females vote 27.2 and 72.8, and the cumulative ends up 24.9 and 75.1.

[whoknows]

Alright granted it was just a crazy ass rant but seriously, this shit needs to end. Someone should put up posters:

Good games + Wii = $$$
Bad games + Wii = $0

Carry on.
Except that's probably not true since crap has been selling on the Wii.

A "friend" of my bought Two Thrones...I mean Rival Swords for the full $50 and said it was worth it even when I told him he could find the PS2 version for ~$10 if he looked.

Then he was looking at MK Armageddon and said he wanted it. I told him how much cheaper it was on every other console and he said "but this one is on the Wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!!!!".

So in short, crap does sell.

[mykevermin]

And myke, I think those numbers of female gamers were from Nintendo, so they've probably got some skewed research somewhere. Maybe counting the moms who bought it for the family? Based on the voting channel, it's strongly skewed towards the male side. Someone who is bored could probably get numbers. But things like males vote 24.7 and 75.3, females vote 27.2 and 72.8, and the cumulative ends up 24.9 and 75.1.

I think the voting channel is a select sample of gamers because it's voluntary. I hate to use anecdotes, but I've never voted on a thing yet.

That said, the reason I wouldn't give it much credibility is because it is voluntary. Like the 20% of WOW players are female stat I mentioned earlier, the researcher said that it came from a WOW census, which was voluntary and offsite. So, you had a limited group of WOW players who even knew about it, and even fewer who did it. Those who did not answer the census are probably similar in a number of ways that, by their omission, the data gained from the census becomes unreliable.

short story long, the data on female gamers comes from Nintendo, but I still don't buy it. I'm willing to believe, with no supportive evidence, that there are more female gamers who own a DS than a PSP, or a Wii than a PS3/360 (mostly based upon the popularity of the DS among Japanese adults of both genders who were not previously gamers)...but over half is a substantial stretch for me.

[Strell]

the data on female gamers comes from Nintendo

!

[mykevermin]

:rofl:

[PawnTakesKing]

Just sucks for any gamers (like myself) who hoped the Wii would have enough real games to keep them satisfied, as that's not looking likely. Even people like myself , who are far from being hardcore gamers in terms of amount of time have/are willing to devote for games look to be hard pressed to be satisfied with just a Wii in the house.

QUOTED. FOR. TRUTH.

I'm sorry. I love Nintendo, and I've owned every single system since the NES days, but the Wii just isn't doing it for me (although the announcements yesterday did convince me to hold onto mine for just a little longer).

As soon as the new 360 bundles drop, I'm picking one up.

[evilmax17]

QUOTED. FOR. TRUTH.

I'm sorry. I love Nintendo, and I've owned every single system since the NES days, but the Wii just isn't doing it for me (although the announcements yesterday did convince me to hold onto mine for just a little longer).

As soon as the new 360 bundles drop, I'm picking one up.
I realize that different people have different "thirsts" when it comes to videogame playing, but how many games do you really need? The console's been on the market for roughly 10 months, and I could definitely find 10 games that are worth playing.

Is one good game per month ludicrously low or something? I don't know how people can expect a AAA title every week, it's just not feasible.

[Reality's Fringe]

"Why should I try when someone else is so much better than me?"

Sounds like a lot of people I know. It's totally not a self-serving excuse for being a dismal failure at all.

[help1]

Metroid Prime 3 kicked all kinds of ass, as did Zelda. Super Paper Mario was ok as well. RE4 kicks ass if you haven't played it elsewhere.

If Wii Sports is your cup of tea, there are plenty of other minigames out there, some of which may appeal to you.

If not, you should sell the Wii it seems to be even less for you than it is for me. :D
Metroid Prime got buried under Halo hype. Zelda isn't recent. RE4 is a remake, and many of us played the original. Also, my appeal to Wii sports was that it was nice and fun to pick up and play, especially with guests. I did contemplate getting Warioware though.

[Strell]

Everything gets buried by Halo hype.

I think people stopped buying bananas for Halo 3.

Metroid Prime 3 is a great game. I'm sure enjoying it. And it's well made enough that if you have a Wii and consider yourself a gamer, you owe it to yourself to pick it up. It really is that simple.

[dothog]

The console's been on the market for roughly 10 months, and I could definitely find 10 games that are worth playing.
Well I couldn't (especially if I'm unwilling to play games that I already played, in a slightly reduced form, on the GC). We have negated one another's anecdotes.

I can understand one Wii owner coming in asking "Where's the games?". Maybe they wanted a cute console and took the plunge. But any more comments than that one makes me think somebody's being dishonest with his/her self. We, and when I write "we" I mean around 90-95% of Wii owners, bought the Wii for access to Nintendo titles. I'd like to see more quality 3rd party games, just like I'd like to see better VC pricing, but what the hell. I knew what I was walking into when I fired up the Wiimobile at launch.

The 3rd party concerns about the lifespan of the console are reasonable to an extent. I suppose maybe that might cause developers to balk, and it's fair enough: no 4 year timelines and 100 person development teams. But I'm puzzled how fears about lifespan go hand in hand with the console's "popularity dropping suddenly." Do they honestly believe the market for the Wii console is that close to saturation? Do the concerns connect in that developers are consequently looking for the Wii 2 to pop up at any minute?

Even if the next Wii does come sooner than later, I'd hope that it would feature BC for Wii titles the same way that the Wii does for GC titles. In which case the concerned developers can simply port those Wii titles to the Wii 2 and get that $50-60 MSRP that they're after. Hell, even Nintendo ported the dick out of Zelda & SPM. So the console lifespan argument isn't a concern.

[dmaul1114]

I believe one major problem that is hurting 3rd parties on the Wii is that they aren't following Nintendo's business model. Nintendo's new mantra for the past couple of years has been to branch out away from the hardcore gamers and start appealing to the more casual gamer and expanding the userbase towards non-tradional gamers.

This makes some sense, but then this part seems contradictory.


It has been Nintendo 1st-party titles leading the casual gaming market, and the 3rd parties just follow with similar games. How many Brain Training knock-offs have there been? How many pet sims have followed Nintendogs?



So 3rd parties are suffering because they're not following Nintendo's lead and making games for the casual market. Yet you then say they are suffering for ripping off Nintendo's first party casual games.

That doesn't really jive. In the past they largely ripped off first party "hardcore games" and made mone doing so (with of course some innovative stuff from the larger third party developers) so they should be able to do so by ripping off the casual games Nintendo Makes.

The problem is they are putting out shovelware, poor quality rip offs. If a third party company put out a Brain Age game that was more fun/in depth than the nintendo one's, I'm sure it would sell well.

Same if they could put out a casual sports game that was better than Wii Sports.



The word of video games is changing. This isn't the same market that existed 10 years ago. Developers need to get off their ass and realize this.

I wouldn't go that far. The 360, and it's games, are selling very well. There's still market for Hardcore games. Nintendo had just been getting their ass kicked in this market the past two generations, so they decided to shift and focus on their fanboys and casual gamers. It has paid dividends for them.

But that doesn't mean that Sony and MS don't still have a huge market of hardcore/more serious gamers that they can make a profit selling traditional games too.

Personally, I don't like the direction Nintendo's taking as I don't really dig most of the casual games. They're ok on the DS, as I like a quick pick up and play game to play in bed before going to sleep, on the plane etc. But when I fire up my consoles, I generally don't do so unless I have a solid couple hours or more to sit and play.

So while Nintendo has long been my favorite developer, it may be time for me to part ways with them on the console front if they continue in this direction as I can't justify keeping the Wii around for just 3-4 games a year that are worthy buying to me.

[Strell]

Ugh, come on now. We've been through these discussions endlessly about the Wii.

There's little to no "good" third party support now because all those same companies swore the thing would be dead by now. 10 months later and only some of them are finally willing to think about bringing "quality" games over. I think Monster Hunter 3 speaks for itself that Japanese companies are starting to re-evaluate the Wii's status.

I mean we're still hearing "this is just the Gamecube with motion." Not with third party support. Tecmo and Rockstar weren't around for the Cube or the 64 (unless you count DMA Design when they made Armorines). Even Namco didn't do a whole lot. And I imagine within a year, we'll truly know whether or not the system is going to get better attention or not.

Why does every discussion about the Wii - outside of the threads that are following a game specifically - always end up mired in these same little circles?

[io]

That's why I said it's doing better. Most of the Japanese games it's getting are pretty mediocre--see Blue Dragon.

It's not closing in on getting any big games like Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest etc. and some of the games from companies like Capcom are really western style games--i.e. Dead Rising.

You are wrong there - Blue Dragon is excellent. It is my favorite 360 game of the year so far (though I'm hoping Katamari will overtake it ;)). I'm glad those types of games are coming for the 360, otherwise it would be mostly an XBLA-game playing system for me. I expected the Wii to start getting many more of these types of things and take over the JRPG/J-quirky game mantle from the PS2. So far it hasn't happened, but we will see (Monster Hunter 3 may be the beginning of this though).

As for the throwaway comments by others about the Wii having no games - if you ignore Metroid, at a minimum, then such comments are meaningless... I can certainly see the lack of good 3rd party games though. I hope it will pick up soon... Just about the only one the rest of this year I have any interest in is Rayman Raving Rabbids 2.

Edit - Hadn't read Strell's comment yet (the one above mine). Of course, that is the obvious truth. But yet for some reason you need to keep repeating it here over and over ;). Let's not forget how many CAGs thought they would be able to stroll into GS in the Spring after the Wii was released (or perhaps, more "realistically" go to CraigsList) and pick one up for $100 because everyone got tired of the "fad" and traded it in after 6 months...

[dmaul1114]

I realize that different people have different "thirsts" when it comes to videogame playing, but how many games do you really need? The console's been on the market for roughly 10 months, and I could definitely find 10 games that are worth playing.


For me, Zelda and Metroid have been the only "worthy" purchases. SPM was ok, but I could have gone with out. Everything else has just been an ok rental, or something I didn't like at all. And Mario Galaxy is the only must buy for the rest of 2007 for me, with a few others like Zak and Wiki being potential rentals.

So that's 3 must buy games for me in a year. Hard to justify the $250 purchase I made last year for that. Though I realize first years are always slow, and the second year tends to pick up (see 360) so that's the one reason I haven't sold it yet. Well, that and Mario Galaxy.



Is one good game per month ludicrously low or something? I don't know how people can expect a AAA title every week, it's just not feasible.

I'd probably say 6-8 AAA games a year are what I'd need to be happy. And by AAA I just mean something I'm interested in enough to drop $50 day one. So personal AAA games I guess you could say. And again, only 3 from Nov 2006-Dec 2007, and only Smash Bros so far in 2008 for me--though to be fair they've just not announced much for next year yet (again why I haven't ditched it yet).

[PleasantOne]

Everything gets buried by Halo hype.

I think people stopped buying bananas for Halo 3.

:rofl:

I really just don't get the wii hate/dislike/mild irritation/whatever. Do I think the Wii could be better? Of course. Are the games lacking? I guess? I don't know, I still have 4 or 5 Wii games on my shelf that I haven't gotten to yet.

And I really don't get all the "I hate my Wii and I should have just gotten a 360" stuff... that's like comparing apples and oranges... no, not even oranges... apples and burritos... or apples and kung pao chicken. It's like if you wanted to see an action movie and you instead knowingly bought tickets to a romantic comedy and then bitched about it afterwards. I didn't buy a Wii planning to play stuff like Forza or Halo on it. I bought the Wii for stuff like Warioware, Mario Kart, Trauma Center, Animal Crossing, and other quirky Japanese stuff. The Wii is an entirely different animal, and I thought we pretty much all understood that from the getgo?

[dmaul1114]

As soon as the new 360 bundles drop, I'm picking one up.

$350 is still too much for me, since I have no interest in Forza 2 or MUA--and they'd sell for shit since they're on the same disc.

Drop to $300 and I'd be on it--even for just the cpremium console without those games.

I'd probably do $350 if Amazon has another of their own bundles like earlier in the year when they were giving away Gears of War as long as it's a game or two that I actually want and would buy if I weren't getting it for free.

[snipegod]

I thought we pretty much all understood that from the getgo?

Some people jive, and some people don't.

[dmaul1114]

I bought the Wii for stuff like Warioware, Mario Kart, Trauma Center, Animal Crossing, and other quirky Japanese stuff. The Wii is an entirely different animal, and I thought we pretty much all understood that from the getgo?

I bought it for stuff like Zelda, Mario, Metroid, Smash Bros etc. The hardcore Nintendo franchises. And also mainly because I bought into the motion control hype.

Now I'm back where I was with the GC--stuck with a console that will just have the 3-4 (or less) big Nintendo franchises a year I want to play, and the occasional third party game worth playing (i.e. Eternal Darkness, RE4). And it looks like it could be even worse this time with the focus on casual gamers reducing the overall number of "real" games.

I'm not really bitter at Nintendo, it's been since the SNES that one of their consoles could be the main system for a hardcore gamer as quality software has just been to few and far between since the N64. As such it's been necessary to own multiple consoles (had a N64 and PS1, a GC and a DC, X-box and PS2).

What I'm more pissed at is Sony for launching at $500-600 and MS for launching at $400 for the non-tard pack, having a ridiculouse failure rate, and only cutting price $50 nearly 2 years post-launch. In short, they've made it too expensive to own multiple consoles for this poor grad student, so they get more of my ire than Nintendo. Nintendo's just being Nintendo for me in putting out a console only worth owning for their franchises for the most part.

[dmaul1114]

Why does every discussion about the Wii - outside of the threads that are following a game specifically - always end up mired in these same little circles?

It's just that these are the central issues currently about whether someone is happy with the Wii or not.

I love the Nintendo main franchises, but I hate the Wii hardware, hate that third party support has been so slow to come (would think at least third parties would be showing some 2008 stuff, but really nothing major yet) etc. etc.

I'm used to owning Nintendo consoles just to play Mario, Metroid and Zelda more or less, but it's harder this time since I haven't had the cash to buy something else to be my main console in the meantime and I made the mistake of buying into the launch hype (motion controls etc.) and buying it first. And I've never been able to bring myself to sell it yet as there's always been just enough right on the corner (i.e. Metroid and now Mario/Smash Bros) that were MUST plays for me to keep me from pulling the trigger.

So in between those big games it gathers dust and I'm back to, "fuck I have nothing to play, fuck where are the third party games worth playing, fuck it sucks that this isn't HD, fuck motion controls have been damn hit or miss" etc. etc.

Thus the circular nature of these types of threads. These are the central issues in whether someone is happy or not with their Wii.

[dmaul1114]

You are wrong there - Blue Dragon is excellent. .

I'd just say you're in the minority on that one. 77% on Game Rankings. http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/927950.asp

It's good in the old school JRPG vain, but not many of us have much interest in those types of games these days.

Hell, I loved FFIII on the SNES, but haven't been able to get into FFVI advanced at all as I can't stand not being able to explore dungeons because of all the fucking random battles.

An RPG has to have a quick pace and an engaging story to keep my interest these days. From the couple hours I played at my friends, and from reviews I read, Blue Dragon has neither of these.

[snipegod]

(had a N64 and PS1, a GC and a DC, X-box and PS2).

He thinks the Gamecube is in the Dreamcast category rather than the Xbox category.

I think that's all, really.

[trq]

Both are unique...

Heh. I find that funny in a "yeah, the SIXAXIS is unique just like the Wiimote" and in a semantics way.

But, the argument here doesn't seem (to me, at any rate) to be about the number of crap titles. It's the lack of quality third party games out now, and on the horizon. The complaint here seems to be "hey, would you put out a little *less* shit, and allocate those resources to games that are of superior quality? We're not talking Nintendo caliber, but somewhere between Nintendo and Chicken Shoot." Which is rather reasonable, IMO.

That's exactly it, I think. To call the Wii out on quality control while ignoring the massive mountains of shovelware the PS2 had -- as Botticus pointed out, Ninjabread Man WAS a PS2 title -- is ludicrious, and that's exactly what that EGM acticle did. The point it missed was that the Wii is basically "manic depressive" -- any given game is either fantastic, or garbage. What the PS2 had and what the Wii is lacking is a wide category of "Meh, it's okay" games. That may not sound like an issue, until you realize how many gamers buy mediocre gamers that have some appeal to their personal preferences -- I'd rather play a "fine" SRPG than an excellent sports game, for example.

[munch]

I didn't read through the thread, but I'm afraid on Nintendo too. Just look at Mario in my avatar. That's a mean mofo.

[The Crotch]

What the PS2 had and what the Wii is lacking is a wide category of "Meh, it's okay" games.Sonic and the Secret Rings? Excite Truck? Elebits? Monkey Ball? Rayman? Trauma Center? All these games averaged around 70%, as I recall...

[PawnTakesKing]

I realize that different people have different "thirsts" when it comes to videogame playing, but how many games do you really need? The console's been on the market for roughly 10 months, and I could definitely find 10 games that are worth playing.

Is one good game per month ludicrously low or something? I don't know how people can expect a AAA title every week, it's just not feasible.

I bought it for stuff like Zelda, Mario, Metroid, Smash Bros etc. The hardcore Nintendo franchises. And also mainly because I bought into the motion control hype.

Now I'm back where I was with the GC--stuck with a console that will just have the 3-4 (or less) big Nintendo franchises a year I want to play, and the occasional third party game worth playing (i.e. Eternal Darkness, RE4). And it looks like it could be even worse this time with the focus on casual gamers reducing the overall number of "real" games.

I'm not really bitter at Nintendo, it's been since the SNES that one of their consoles could be the main system for a hardcore gamer as quality software has just been to few and far between since the N64. As such it's been necessary to own multiple consoles (had a N64 and PS1, a GC and a DC, X-box and PS2).

What I'm more pissed at is Sony for launching at $500-600 and MS for launching at $400 for the non-tard pack, having a ridiculouse failure rate, and only cutting price $50 nearly 2 years post-launch. In short, they've made it too expensive to own multiple consoles for this poor grad student, so they get more of my ire than Nintendo. Nintendo's just being Nintendo for me in putting out a console only worth owning for their franchises for the most part.

I couldn't really have said it better.

[dmaul1114]

Sonic and the Secret Rings? Excite Truck? Elebits? Monkey Ball? Rayman? Trauma Center? All these games averaged around 70%, as I recall...

I'd have to agree. It has a lot of "meh, it's ok" games. It's lacking in AAA games for me, which is what really matters to me as I seldom waste time or money on "meh" games. Rentals at most.

[SNAKE EYES EX]

The Wii lineup to me is pretty much:
Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
Resident Evil 4
Wii Sports

By the end of the year you can add:
Zack and Wiki
Super Mario Galaxy

[jer7583]

This has been happening forever on Nintendo consoles. Man up, 3rd parties. Capcom managed to sell a million or so of a port of a game where the original still runs on the console, ubisoft sold a million or so of Red Steel and Raving Rabbids, so quit your bitchin, and when shit like carnival games or Madden doesn't sell, don't be surprised.

Nintendo owners traditionally just don't buy the same kind of garbage that other pop-gamers do like Need for Speed and Madden.

[mykevermin]

Nintendo owners traditionally just don't buy the same kind of garbage that other pop-gamers do like Need for Speed and Madden.

Oh, bullshit.

[dothog]

Why does every discussion about the Wii - outside of the threads that are following a game specifically - always end up mired in these same little circles?
I would guess the circles feel tired because you insist on pacing them.

I mean we're still hearing "this is just the Gamecube with motion."

Maybe it's better to say that if we're making inaccurate statements, it's more inaccurate to state "this isn't the GC with motion" than the opposite. There is more GameCube in the Wii than there is some fantastical next-gen magic machine. The major difference in the consoles IMO isn't the interface or hardware, it's that the Wii is receiving the intelligent, focused marketing that was due the GC.

I'm not sure how to fit all that in the thread discussion of when quality third-party, Wii-exclusive titles are going to hit in large numbers. I just thought I'd play briefly in the level above discourse that you prefer to occupy.

[defiance_17]

Nintendo owners traditionally just don't buy the same kind of garbage that other pop-gamers do like Need for Speed and Madden.
You're absolutely right. They buy garbage like Mario Party and anything with Donkey Kong in the title. That's like an Abercrombie vs. Hot Topic argument.

[Nephilim]

you guys talk too much

[xdl]

Oh, bullshit.

Apparently he has never looked at the used racks of GC games at any second hand store.


I was willing to give the Wii a chance, mostly because I haven't owned a GC since about 2004 and felt the need to be able to play some GC games. Wii sports is mildly fun for a while, I gave SPM a chance as well, and I am not really into it. The motion controls don't work for me. If I want to play a serious game with some level of skill involved, I don't want to be waving shit around the room - I prefer the little bit extra of exactness (pretty sure that is not even a word) of a normal controller.

I don't blame the third parties for not climbing aboard yet. You are being quite a bit naive if you dont at least understand why it's at least a little bit of an issue. Anything that has sold that many units that quickly, and with that much competition, has a fairly high likelyhood of a heavy drop off at some point. On top of that, Nintendo is mostly catering to the recreational gamers and non gamers - and now they make up a larger portion of the gaming market than ever before. The ultimate Nintendo fanboys don't dominate the gaming market as the internet forums would indicate. If I was creating games, would I avoid the Wii? No, but I can at least see why someone would.

[bigdaddy]

one, two, three, four, five, six. I count six. A bit pissed today are we?

It's only a half dozen! :)

And I think this is the reason reason....

"I don't know what to do!!! The PS3 is supposed to be number one with it's graphics and specs I don't understand! What the fuck are we suppose to do with a wiggle wand?!" -3rd Parties


Here's a hint, the Wii already has 5 million more than the PS3 and the same as the Xbox 360 in half the time. What console do these companies thing will take over? Do they think so many people will buy a 360 because of Halo 3? Are the waiting for the PS3 sales to increase once.......... ummm... a good game comes out?

Idiots. Can't they see if you are on Nintendo's side you make more money? if anything I think they should be bitching about real things like friend codes.

[blazemonkey]

so far i havent played many good 3rd party games on the wii. the nintendo titles are far superior.

[trq]

Sonic and the Secret Rings? Excite Truck? Elebits? Monkey Ball? Rayman? Trauma Center? All these games averaged around 70%, as I recall...

Fair enough, with the caveats that a) that's not the huge list of forgettable "there's something for everyone" filler on Sony consoles, and that stuff makes up a huge portion of the market. How many Wild ARMS games have there been? Siphon Filter? And b) I think they're averaging around 70% because they're scoring 5's and 9's, not 7s across the board.

I'd have to agree. It has a lot of "meh, it's ok" games. It's lacking in AAA games for me, which is what really matters to me as I seldom waste time or money on "meh" games. Rentals at most.

I'm curious: if the Wii is lacking in AAA games in your opinion, do you think a 360 or a PS3 alone would be able to meet the standard of "AAA games per year" you expect?

[Tsukento]

You know, there's a good reason I haven't touched many games on the Wii. That's because it's flooded with awful 3rd party titles, as you guys have mentioned. It's not really because are thinking it's just a fad and all. It's primarily because we're getting fed up and bored with all the garbage that is available at the time being that isn't made by Nintendo for the Wii.

These developers need to realize that the Wii is no different from the DS in terms of popularity. Both suffered the same drought, which resulted in people claiming the DS was merely a fad.

If the damned developers would learn how to make some fucking quality games, we wouldn't have this problem. Instead, Wii's 3rd party market is being flooded with poorly brought over ports (EA, you're completely guilty for this shit) and titles make no sense as hell being console games (Chicken Shoot, as mentioned before).

Should Nintendo have to reinforce that Seal of Quality they brought up back when Tengen crapped all over the NES just to slap some sense into these developers?[/SIZE]

[freshzen]

There isn't a true "shortage" of Wii consoles...its actually genious marketing on the part of Nintendo.

If they wanted the Wii to be available any & every where it would be. From what I've been told it will be starting black Friday.

Anyway I can sort of see their point but whoever this game company is they must be scared as hell to develop anything ::rolls eyes::

By the way the only 3rd party game on Wii I've really enjoyed is Marble Mania--most beloved Wii game by stoners :)

[io]

I'd just say you're in the minority on that one. 77% on Game Rankings. http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/927950.asp

It's good in the old school JRPG vain, but not many of us have much interest in those types of games these days.

Hell, I loved FFIII on the SNES, but haven't been able to get into FFVI advanced at all as I can't stand not being able to explore dungeons because of all the fucking random battles.

An RPG has to have a quick pace and an engaging story to keep my interest these days. From the couple hours I played at my friends, and from reviews I read, Blue Dragon has neither of these.

Not to get too off topic here, but what can I say, the reviews are wrong. Golly gee... Also, if you played for a "couple hours" you would know there are no random battles in Blue Dragon. If you knew that, you were being disingenuous in bringing that up as a slam on old school JRPGs. Yes, it has some old school JRPG elements, but that ain't one of them. DragonQuest VIII got solid rewiews and it is pretty solidly old-school including the random battles. Just because it is an old school JRPG and YOU don't want to play such things doesn't mean it is a bad game. And unless you review it from that perpective (which is fine if you are up front about it) it doesn't deserve at least some of the scores it got. I'd say it isn't quite as good as DQ VIII, but it is solidly 8-9 range. And the "horrible" average (that supposedly puts me in the minority) you posted (which I've seen before, thanks) is pretty close to that, so actually that's not too bad considering the inherent bias towards the old-school type of game... I add a couple points for most RPGs and take a couple away for most shooters to get to my personal preferences ;).

Actually, though, this brings up my frustration with the 360 which is in a similar vein as the "casual games is killing the Wii" crowd. Both Blue Dragon and Eternal Sonata seem to be getting very little support from the 360 owning U.S. masses. I expect the same next week for Katamari. That, to me, is very frustrating and I wish these things would do much better so I could get more of my own brand of "hard core" games released for it. But I know that isn't likely to happen, so I hope the Wii can fill in that part of my library. The 360 seems to be going for the casual sports/shooter/racing crowd and that be the death of gaming ;).

And to get *somewhat* back on topic, if we can start getting third party support in terms of games like Blue Dragon, Tales of Symphonia (already happening by the way), and DragonQuest VIII (we'll see - maybe after IX for the DS), I'll be very happy indeed with the Wii.

[Tsukento]

An RPG has to have a quick pace and an engaging story to keep my interest these days.
What you want is a Zelda type game. Not an RPG. RPGs are hardly "quick pace" so as to give the play more story to unfold as they progress.

[io]

What you want is a Zelda type game. Not an RPG. RPGs are hardly "quick pace" so as to give the play more story to unfold as they progress.

I hadn't thought of that - good point. Also, the story in Blue Dragon is fine. I have yet to be blown away by the story in ANY game, so I don't see how it fails in that respect :lol:. FWIW, the best RPG stories I have played are Suikoden V and Fire Emblem Path of Radiance. Note that there are a lot of big-time RPG's I have not played though...

[PhoenixT]

I realize that different people have different "thirsts" when it comes to videogame playing, but how many games do you really need? The console's been on the market for roughly 10 months, and I could definitely find 10 games that are worth playing.

Is one good game per month ludicrously low or something? I don't know how people can expect a AAA title every week, it's just not feasible.

where are you getting those 10 good games from? I've got Paper Mario, Zelda and Metroid along with Wii Sports thats 5 the rest really don't interest me that much. However I've got almost two dozen or more 360 titles that I enjoy or "have" enjoyed in the past its not fanboyism its just it has more titles and draws my interest. Its also much easier to play with friends and most the time that I'm gaming now I'm gaming with friends on live. Right now theres really not much of an experience simlar to that on the Wii I mean what would I play super mario strikers...its soccer it dosen't really interest me *shrugs*.

[PhoenixT]

Not to get too off topic here, but what can I say, the reviews are wrong. Golly gee... Also, if you played for a "couple hours" you would know there are no random battles in Blue Dragon. If you knew that, you were being disingenuous in bringing that up as a slam on old school JRPGs. Yes, it has some old school JRPG elements, but that ain't one of them. DragonQuest VIII got solid rewiews and it is pretty solidly old-school including the random battles. Just because it is an old school JRPG and YOU don't want to play such things doesn't mean it is a bad game. And unless you review it from that perpective (which is fine if you are up front about it) it doesn't deserve at least some of the scores it got. I'd say it isn't quite as good as DQ VIII, but it is solidly 8-9 range. And the "horrible" average (that supposedly puts me in the minority) you posted (which I've seen before, thanks) is pretty close to that, so actually that's not too bad considering the inherent bias towards the old-school type of game... I add a couple points for most RPGs and take a couple away for most shooters to get to my personal preferences ;).

Actually, though, this brings up my frustration with the 360 which is in a similar vein as the "casual games is killing the Wii" crowd. Both Blue Dragon and Eternal Sonata seem to be getting very little support from the 360 owning U.S. masses. I expect the same next week for Katamari. That, to me, is very frustrating and I wish these things would do much better so I could get more of my own brand of "hard core" games released for it. But I know that isn't likely to happen, so I hope the Wii can fill in that part of my library. The 360 seems to be going for the casual sports/shooter/racing crowd and that be the death of gaming ;).

And to get *somewhat* back on topic, if we can start getting third party support in terms of games like Blue Dragon, Tales of Symphonia (already happening by the way), and DragonQuest VIII (we'll see - maybe after IX for the DS), I'll be very happy indeed with the Wii.

I bought Eternal Sonata io , I plan on getting blue dragon as well eventually there are just so many games for me to buy this year I had to cut down :/.

[Mookyjooky]

Lets all just realize that when you make a game for a nintendo system, your biggest competitor IS nintendo. And they have a serious advantage, because simply... its their system.

Lets also keep in mind, that Nintendo doesnt have to make a good game for it to sell a million copies either. In fact, decent number of their collection gets mediocre scores... Mario Party, Mario Sports games, etc...

Nintendo is a juggernaut in the gaming industry, and hell they got grandma to play games. But Nintendo kinda did this to themselves. In the past they always set the standard for brilliant, innovative games... but lately stuff like Wii Sports, Wii Play, Donkey Kong Barrel Blast... it all is pretty... bland. You cant say Resident evil 4 sucks cause its a port, when Zelda and Super Paper Mario were as well. And even though Zelda and Super Paper Mario are fantastic games, they really didnt require Wii interactivity, or used to innovative control scheme primarily. (Meaning not there, or not tacked on as an after thought)

Nintendo was getting there, they were on the right track at launch, but they're ALWAYS on the right track at launch, because they're a fantastic company and they have a VERY loyal fanbase. But like every system Nintendo has released since the Super Nes... they tend to stray to make the highest profit, and then drop the product for the next trend, leaving 3rd party in the wake. Also, innovation takes time to impliment, and Nintendo has years before their 3rd party does to get used to their innovation. Nintendo hasnt really been really good about support for their 3rd party companies as well.

In all honesty, why would a company spend millions in development for a system casual gamers bought to play Wii Tennis? Nintendo makes their money in the hardware, not in entising 3rd party software vendors to make fantastic games for their system.

[Puffa469]

Should Nintendo have to reinforce that Seal of Quality they brought up back when Tengen crapped all over the NES just to slap some sense into these developers?[/size]

Uhh, what?

The Nintendo 'seal of quality' *snicker*, was around before Tengen. Hell, Tengen used to make game with that seal on them, games with normal grey NES carts. It wasnt until the Tetris dispute that Tengen went all renegade on Nintendo. And the Tengen version of Tetris is better than Nintendos version. Tengen games in general are among the better NES games.

The Nintendo 'Seal of Quality' is an effing joke. All that seal ever meant was that the publisher of the game with the seal on it paid Nintendo a licensing fee. There have been tons of third party crap games on Nintendo systems since the beginning, and it seems there always will be.

[pete5883]

Will this shit ever end? Yeah Nintendo makes some good games...here's an idea, make good games like Nintendo and your games will sell.
No, no they won't. RE1, RE4, and some Sonic games are the only 3rd party games that sold as well as Gamecube games published by Nintendo. Are you telling me these are the only good 3rd party games?

[Strell]

I would guess the circles feel tired because you insist on pacing them.

Phuh. That is a bad statement, even for this thread.


The major difference in the consoles IMO isn't the interface or hardware, it's that the Wii is receiving the intelligent, focused marketing that was due the GC.


There is no way you could have marketed the GC like the Wii. Absolutely no way.


I'm not sure how to fit all that in the thread discussion of when quality third-party, Wii-exclusive titles are going to hit in large numbers. I just thought I'd play briefly in the level above discourse that you prefer to occupy.

There's not enough alcohol in the universe to put me in a state where I'd care to respond to this.

No, no they won't. RE1, RE4, and some Sonic games are the only 3rd party games that sold as well as Gamecube games published by Nintendo. Are you telling me these are the only good 3rd party games?

Soul Calibur 2 sold well. I want to say Viewtiful Joe 1 did also, but I can't guarantee that.

But again. Comparing the GC to the Wii at this point is tenuous at best.

[dmaul1114]

What you want is a Zelda type game. Not an RPG. RPGs are hardly "quick pace" so as to give the play more story to unfold as they progress.

Final Fantasy X was very quick paced, XII looks even more so but I've not given it ago yet. Knights of the Old Republic is very quick paced, Mass Effect looks even more so with real time battles etc.

By quick paced, I really just meant more action oriented, no random encounters hampering exploration (and, IO for your post above, yes I know Blue Dragon doesn't have them, that just got lumped in there with my general rant against old JRPG style games), and more action oriented battles.

[dmaul1114]

What I'm more pissed at is Sony for launching at $500-600 and MS for launching at $400 for the non-tard pack, having a ridiculouse failure rate, and only cutting price $50 nearly 2 years post-launch. In short, they've made it too expensive to own multiple consoles for this poor grad student, so they get more of my ire than Nintendo. Nintendo's just being Nintendo for me in putting out a console only worth owning for their franchises for the most part.

Well that problem is solved. Couldn't pass up the offer from Frys in the deal forum for a Pro 360 w/HDMI, Marvel:UA, Forza 2, Orange Box, Bioshock and Two Worlds for $399.99. Three $60 games for $50? That's a smokin' deal. Especially when Bioshock and Orange Box were among my most wanted 360 games. :D

Well, problem solved pending the orders not being canceled. But I've never had that problem with Frys.com

[dothog]

There is no way you could have marketed the GC like the Wii. Absolutely no way.

Exactly. And that marketing is the major difference in the consoles, not the hardware, etc., hence labeling the Wii a "GC with motion control" is fair enough from a hardware perspective. A touch too simple for some tastes, but not so misleading as to be offensive. If you're suggesting that the GC was screwed out of the gate because it lacked a hook (such as motion control and/or targeting non-gamers aka blue ocean) and was consequently impossible to market as aggressively as the Wii, I disagree. It was a different Nintendo then, and they wasted the GC opportunity.


There's not enough alcohol in the universe to put me in a state where I'd care to respond to this.

Well, I hope you didn't take offense to the comment. At least to the extent that you need to be drunk to respond openly. It's just that this meta-discourse is what you enjoy, whether it's dismissing thread discussion on the basis of other, older threads (as though all threads are part of one continuous discussion) or commenting on the appropriateness of changing thread titles. Sometimes it's helpful, but other times it's there for its own sake.

[jkam]

No, no they won't. RE1, RE4, and some Sonic games are the only 3rd party games that sold as well as Gamecube games published by Nintendo. Are you telling me these are the only good 3rd party games?

No but there was almost a stigma that the Cube's third party games weren't as good. The truth was that some looked better and loaded faster than there PS2 counterparts. I was among the few that had and still have some of the third party stuff on the GC as opposed to the PS2. The games were there, but when it came down to it the install base just wasn't there. Common sense would also tell me with the vast difference in system sales that more people only owned a PS2 than only owned a GC which would create the major difference in profitably on the PS2.

The difference here as of right now the Wii is the market leader where as the Gamcube was in last place. The sad thing is the Cube's 3rd party games were better than the Wii's at this point since it was a more level playing field with each of the 3 systems so everyone got essential the same game. Now we have games that aren't being made specifically for the Wii at all and its become a dumping ground of garbage.

[PhoenixT]

dosesn't every system to a point become dumping ground? I understand its easier on the Wii due to lower development costs but they need to realize to it takes more to make a port work on a system thats designed on motion sensing controls rather than analog or dpad control. I half wonder if their just pumping out budget games at AAA game prices to offset development costs for systems such as the 360 and PS3 (which would be stupid but *shrug* who knows).

[dmaul1114]

I couldn't care less if a system is a "dumping ground." The DS is a huge dumping ground, but it has a ton of great software as well.

As long as a system has enough AAA games I want to play to warrant owning it, I'm fine and see no point in caring how much shovelware is also out there. The problem with the Wii is it hasn't had enough AAA games to satisfy me thus far.

The shovelware doesn't bother me, as most of it is from developer who have never made a game I loved anyway (Ubisoft being a big exception to this). i.e., they aren't wasting time that could be put into something I'd like anyway.

[io]

Well that problem is solved. Couldn't pass up the offer from Frys in the deal forum for a Pro 360 w/HDMI, Marvel:UA, Forza 2, Orange Box, Bioshock and Two Worlds for $399.99. Three $60 games for $50? That's a smokin' deal. Especially when Bioshock and Orange Box were among my most wanted 360 games. :D


Well, holy crap, that is a great deal. I feel ripped off paying $480 for an Elite with no games :cry:. And that makes me mad at MS. See, at least Nintendo stuff holds its value ;). But this strengthens my resolve on not buying a PS3 any time soon - I'll wait for some similar type bundle.

[Tsukento]

Final Fantasy X was very quick paced, XII looks even more so but I've not given it ago yet.
FFX was quick paced because the game was entirely linear and tossed out the overworld map. FFX was usually poo-pooed on by those following the franchise as it started to mark the fall of it.

Besides, that game left me wondering why the hell I bothered to play if I was gonna find out that the main character was really just a dream (wtf?) and that the final boss was a ball that took over my summons' bodies.

[dmaul1114]

Linearity never bothered me. Generally not a fan of open-ended, sandbox type games.

Guess because I grew up on simple 2D sidescrollers. Doesn't get any more linear than "Start on the left, go right until you reach the goal." :D

[dmaul1114]

Well, holy crap, that is a great deal. I feel ripped off paying $480 for an Elite with no games :cry:. And that makes me mad at MS. See, at least Nintendo stuff holds its value ;). But this strengthens my resolve on not buying a PS3 any time soon - I'll wait for some similar type bundle.


Well, if it makes you feel better, there's a good chance a lot of orders will get cancelled it seems.

[mykevermin]

Well, if it makes you feel better, there's a good chance a lot of orders will get cancelled it seems.

Forgive the perpetuation of a thread hijack, but why would they be canceled? Are people ordering more than 1 to resell piecemeal for a tasty profit, or was this a price mistake?

[trq]

Nintendo is a juggernaut in the gaming industry, and hell they got grandma to play games. But Nintendo kinda did this to themselves. In the past they always set the standard for brilliant, innovative games... but lately stuff like Wii Sports, Wii Play, Donkey Kong Barrel Blast... it all is pretty... bland. You cant say Resident evil 4 sucks cause its a port, when Zelda and Super Paper Mario were as well. And even though Zelda and Super Paper Mario are fantastic games, they really didnt require Wii interactivity, or used to innovative control scheme primarily. (Meaning not there, or not tacked on as an after thought)

Why does everyone keep ignoring Corruption?

[dmaul1114]

Forgive the perpetuation of a thread hijack, but why would they be canceled? Are people ordering more than 1 to resell piecemeal for a tasty profit, or was this a price mistake?

Some peoples showed up as backorderd, and someone on slickdeals called and was told that all backordered ones would be cancelled.

Mine apparently has shipped though, so I should be good to go. :D

[BattleChicken]

Well that problem is solved. Couldn't pass up the offer from Frys in the deal forum for a Pro 360 w/HDMI, Marvel:UA, Forza 2, Orange Box, Bioshock and Two Worlds for $399.99. Three $60 games for $50? That's a smokin' deal. Especially when Bioshock and Orange Box were among my most wanted 360 games. :D

Well, problem solved pending the orders not being canceled. But I've never had that problem with Frys.com

Amazing deal...

A friend of mine was saying the PC orange box had vastly superior online than the 360 version.. who knows?

I still think after the first really huge Capcom or Squeenix title, the Wii will get a lot more third party software.

[jer7583]

Oh, bullshit.

Okay, so they do buy other kinds of garbage like Mario Party, but honestly, the original Xbox Madden beat the Wii version this year in sales.. The traditional "hot gotta have it MTV said so" type games just don't sell on Nintendo systems.

[The Crotch]

Fair enough, with the caveats that a) that's not the huge list of forgettable "there's something for everyone" filler on Sony consoles, and that stuff makes up a huge portion of the market. How many Wild ARMS games have there been? Siphon Filter? And b) I think they're averaging around 70% because they're scoring 5's and 9's, not 7s across the board.Not wanting to check GameRankings, I'll give you point B, but point A is ludicrous. Of course there's a huge amount of filler on Sony's previous consoles: they've been out a billion years longer and dominated the market to a much greater degree than the Wii has thus far.
Knights of the Old Republic is very quick paced...Manaan.

I win.

[Tsukento]

Linearity never bothered me. Generally not a fan of open-ended, sandbox type games.

Guess because I grew up on simple 2D sidescrollers. Doesn't get any more linear than "Start on the left, go right until you reach the goal." :D
That kind of thing typically works with sidescrollers, obviously. It generally doesn't go well with RPGs.

[dmaul1114]

That kind of thing typically works with sidescrollers, obviously. It generally doesn't go well with RPGs.

Depends on what you like, I guess. Of couse they can't be that linear, but they can be linear to the extent that you always know what you need to do/where you need to go next.

And for that I'll take a game like FFX over a game like Oblivion anytime. I don't have the attention span for open ended games.

[seanr1221]

I think it's all pretty obvious how things look to third party developers. If madden on the regular xbox really did sell more then the Wii version, the casual fans we've known for years aren't really into the Wii. I think it's safe to assume a new breed of casual gamers are into the Wii. Now, third party companies don't know the buying patterns of these new fans yet so they are taking a cautious approach.

[Puffa469]

I think it's all pretty obvious how things look to third party developers. If madden on the regular xbox really did sell more then the Wii version, the casual fans we've known for years aren't really into the Wii. I think it's safe to assume a new breed of casual gamers are into the Wii. Now, third party companies don't know the buying patterns of these new fans yet so they are taking a cautious approach.

I dont consider the Madden players as 'casual' gamers. I think of those people as 'mainstream' gamers. Guys who play Madden, Halo, and GTA games, along with other sports titles and maybe the odd GTA clone.

To me the 'casual' gamer is someone who likes puzzle games, and easy to pick up and play stuff. Thats the gamer Nintendo is going after, the person who plays Freecell and minesweeper at work. The person whos last console experience was playing Tetris on the original gameboy that belonged to their little brother. Girls who like Ms. Pacman and the Sims.

[Strell]

Current generation: The [Adjective] Gamer Wars.

Subcurrent generation: The "True" Gamers try to think up every possible [Adjective] Wars.

[dmaul1114]

I dont consider the Madden players as 'casual' gamers. I think of those people as 'mainstream' gamers. Guys who play Madden, Halo, and GTA games, along with other sports titles and maybe the odd GTA clone.

To me the 'casual' gamer is someone who likes puzzle games, and easy to pick up and play stuff. Thats the gamer Nintendo is going after, the person who plays Freecell and minesweeper at work. The person whos last console experience was playing Tetris on the original gameboy that belonged to their little brother. Girls who like Ms. Pacman and the Sims.


Semantics issue, but that's probably fair. The mainstream gamers who made the PS1 and PS2 raging success don't seem to be into the Wii if Madden is selling that poorly.

In the long run, that doesn't bode well for getting "mainstream" third party games, as they will likely keep focusing on "casual" games if that's what's selling well.

If that makes money for Nintendo, then that's great. System may definitely end up not being for me--or only being kept around for the 2 or 3 big Nintendo franchise games a year. But that bother's me less now that I finally have a 360 on the way to give me a more steady supply of real/mainstream/hardcore games.

[KingBroly]

If 3rd parties make crap that don't sell. Their fears are not justified. If you make crap, more than likely, they will sell like crap.

[Krymner]

Just for fun, listed below is the Wii scheduled releases for the next 2 months. I do see alot of crap, but there's more than just one or two solid 3rd-party releases. I've put those in bold, a strikethru on 1st-party titles, and put what I think is crap in italics. Good but unremarkable games and questionable titles I have left normal.

Oct. 15: Sea Monsters from DSI Games
Oct. 16: Thrillville(R): Off the Rails(TM) from LucasArts
Oct. 22: EA PLAYGROUND from Electronic Arts
Oct. 23: Backyard Football from Atari, Inc.
Oct. 23: The Sims 2(TM) Castaway from Electronic Arts
Oct. 23: Rockstar Games Presents(TM) Table Tennis from Rockstar Games
Oct. 23: The Legend of Spyro(TM): The Eternal Night from Sierra
Entertainment, Inc.
Oct. 23: NARUTO(TM): Clash of Ninja(TM) Revolution from TOMY Corporation
Oct. 25: M&M'S(R) Kart Racing from DSI Games
Oct. 28: Guitar Hero III(TM): Legends of Rock from Activision
Oct. 29: Battalion Wars(TM) 2 from Nintendo
Oct. 30: Ben 10(TM): Protector of Earth from D3Publisher of America(R)
Oct. 30: Showtime(R) Championship Boxing(TM) from DSI Games
Oct. 30: NEED FOR SPEED PROSTREET from Electronic Arts
Oct. 30: THE SIMPSONS from Electronic Arts
Oct. 31: Manhunt 2(TM) from Rockstar Games
October: Spider-Man(TM): Friend or Foe from Activision
October: Bee Movie(TM) Game from Activision
October: Tony Hawk's Proving Ground from Activision
October: Ultimate Duck Hunting(TM) from Detn8 Games Ltd.
October: Mercury Meltdown Revolution from Ignition Entertainment
October: Namco Museum(TM) Remix from NAMCO BANDAI Games America
October: Code Lyoko: Quest for Infinity from The Game Factory
October: Avatar: The Last Airbender(TM) - The Burning Earth from THQ
October: Bratz: The Movie(TM) from THQ
October: Cars: Mater-National from THQ
October: Nicktoons(TM): Attack of the Toybots from THQ
October: SpongeBob's Atlantis SquarePantis(TM) from THQ
Nov. 5: Fire Emblem(R): Radiant Dawn from Nintendo
Nov. 6: DanceDanceRevolution Hottest Party from Konami Digital
Entertainment, Inc.
Nov. 6: LEGO(R) Star Wars(TM): The Complete Saga from LucasArts
Nov. 6: Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games(TM) from SEGA
Nov. 12: Super Mario Galaxy(TM) from Nintendo
Nov. 13: Dragon Ball Z Budokai Tenkaichi 3 from Atari, Inc.
Nov. 13: Godzilla Unleashed from Atari, Inc.
Nov. 13: Lara Croft Tomb Raider: Anniversary from Eidos, Inc.
Nov. 13: BLOCKS from Electronic Arts
Nov. 13: MEDAL OF HONOR HEROES(TM) 2 from Electronic Arts
Nov. 13: LUXOR: Pharaoh's Challenge from MumboJumbo
Nov. 13: Geometry Wars(TM): Galaxies from Sierra Entertainment, Inc.
Nov. 19: Link's Crossbow Training(TM) (packaged with Wii Zapper(TM)) from
Nintendo
Nov. 19: SMARTY PANTS(TM) from Electronic Arts
Nov. 20: Jenga World Tour from Atari, Inc.
Nov. 20: Puzzle Quest: Challenge of the Warlords(TM) from D3Publisher of
America(R)
November: Trauma Center(TM): New Blood from Atlus USA
November: Star Trek: Conquest from Bethesda Softworks
November: Disney Princess: Enchanted Journey from Disney Interactive
Studios
November: Hannah Montana: Spotlight World Tour from Disney Interactive
Studios
November: High School Musical: Sing It from Disney Interactive Studios
November: Garfield Gets Real from DSI Games
November: Furu Furu Park from Majesco Entertainment
November: AMF Bowling: Pinbusters! from Mud Duck Games
November: Ghost Squad(TM) from SEGA
November: WWE(R) SmackDown(R) vs. Raw(R) 2008 from THQ
November: Brothers in Arms: Road to Hill 30 from Ubisoft
November: CSI: Hard Evidence from Ubisoft
November: My Word Coach from Ubisoft
November: Petz: Catz 2 (name not final) from Ubisoft
November: Petz: Dogz 2 (name not final) from Ubisoft
November: Petz: Horsez 2 (name not final) from Ubisoft
November: Rayman Raving Rabbids 2 from Ubisoft

That's a total of 61 titles on this list, and only 4 are 1st-party games.
Sooo....to break em down...

Activision: 4 games; Guitar Hero 3 should sell well; Spiderman, Bee Movie, Tony Hawk all seem "meh" but not necessarly shovelware
Atari: 4 games; most are "meh"; Jenga may be fun if done right
D3Publisher: 2 games; Puzzle Quest is good if you don't own DS or 360 version; Ben10=more liscenced crap
Disney Interactive: 3 games; all very "Disney" and uninteresting to most CAGs
DSI: 4 games; all are shovelware; these are the Chicken Shoot retards; don't buy this crap okay?
EA: 7 games; most are "meh, rent it"
LucasArts: 2 games; Lego Star Wars=good but just an upgraded port; Thrillville?=pass
Rockstar: 2 games; Table Tennis only if control is responsive; Manhunt 2 should sell very well
SEGA: 2 games; both solid titles; Mario & Sonic Olympic game should sell very well; Ghost Squad is looking good (http://www.sega-ghostsquad.com/wii/home.html)
Sierra Ent: 2 games; Spyro is "meh"; Geometry Wars is a port
THQ: 6 games; 5 are liscenced crap (Avatar, Bratz, Cars, Nicktoons, Spongebob); WWE if you like wrestling
Ubisoft: 7 games total; 3 crappy Petz games; Raving Rabbids sequel; 2 questionable (Bro in Arms & CSI); Word Coach=brain training-ish

The rest just have 1 game being released in the next 2 months. Some that stand out are: Tomb Raider: Anniversary (which is a port) & Trauma Center 2 (which should sell well).

Of all the 3rd-parties, it looks to me that EA has the strongest lineup, but almost all of those are multi-platform titles. THQ and Ubisoft are the only others that are releasing as many games, but most of theirs are liscenced crap.

In my opinion, over 75% of all these games should retail at under $20, but we all know most will not. I do like that corny Ghost Squad Japanese trailer...it made me lol when they started hiding behind the sofa:lol:

There's not a huge amount of exclusives on that list, but when you look at the 360 & PS3 lists for the next 2 months, there's not any more for them either. If anything, I think there's more solid Wii exclusives coming (if you count 1st party titles) than the other major consoles. But that's just my opinion.

I do think its important to note that 3rd-party developers will be watching console sales VERY closely this holiday, and when it comes down to it, the highest install base is the console they'll be supporting the most next year despite their fears for the future. And if the PS2 is anything to go by, the highest install base will get the most shovelware, and there's nothing anyone can do about this.

[io]

And just to show that these things are not absolute, I would take a few of your "crap" titles off that status for sure. For example, Mercury Meltdown Revolution is a $19.99 title that has gotten solid reviews from European review sites. In fact, it is the 13th best-reviewed title on Metacritic for the Wii (at a 75 average). I'm not sure why you put it in that category. I would make that a solid 3rd party release on your list!

Also, things like EA Playground have potential (I'd put it in the wait-n-see category). Sure, it is a "casual" game, but not necessarily a crap one. Also, I'd move Rayman Raving Rabbids 2 into the solid category (way more than that overhyped POS Rockstar Table Tennis at least).

In any case, the 3rd party release schedule is not as bad as I thought it was and certainly not as bad as everyone here makes it out to be...

[Krymner]

In any case, the 3rd party release schedule is not as bad as I thought it was and certainly not as bad as everyone here makes it out to be...

My point exactly. I saw this list after reading through this thread and was surprised myself. I think its a pretty solid holiday lineup.

[paz9x]

for me the problem, is there just isnt much that i HAVE to buy.
and its really not that big of a problem at all.
i would like to see more games that interest me but im not everyone.

one thing id like is to stop seeing the shelves lined with retarded petz, bratz, and chicken shoot games.

[dmaul1114]

And just to show that these things are not absolute, I would take a few of your "crap" titles off that status for sure.

And to go the other direction, there are many not marked as crap that I would mark as crap.

Only Super Mario Galaxy is a must buy from that list, and probably only another 3 or 4 games I have any interest in renting or checking out when they hit $20 or under.

So, as with anything to do with games, it's entirely subjective.

[trq]

Not wanting to check GameRankings, I'll give you point B, but point A is ludicrous. Of course there's a huge amount of filler on Sony's previous consoles: they've been out a billion years longer and dominated the market to a much greater degree than the Wii has thus far.

Okay, sure. I wasn't suggesting that it would never happen, or even that it's really all that big of a problem.

Just for fun, listed below is the Wii scheduled releases for the next 2 months. I do see alot of crap, but there's more than just one or two solid 3rd-party releases. I've put those in bold, a strikethru on 1st-party titles, and put what I think is crap in italics. Good but unremarkable games and questionable titles I have left normal.

Well done with the list. It also excludes some random games, like Victorious Boxers, Zack and Wiki, and presumably others, which is weird, because I know that's straight from Nintendo.

And to go the other direction, there are many not marked as crap that I would mark as crap.

Only Super Mario Galaxy is a must buy from that list, and probably only another 3 or 4 games I have any interest in renting or checking out when they hit $20 or under.

So, as with anything to do with games, it's entirely subjective.

Fair enough. But then the problem isn't "the console doesn't have enough real games to keep me satisfied," is it? There are absolutely more "real" games on that list than anyone could play in two months. It's like saying the 360 doesn't have any good games coming out in the fall, to which someone responds "Halo 3, Call of Duty 4, and The Orange Box." "Yeah, but I don't like shooters." Well, there ya go. Someone with a Wii and a broad range of interests in games has at-least-reasonably-good WWII shooters, strategy roleplaying games, minigame collections, wrestling games, puzzle/RPGs, arcade sports games, adventure games, racing games, action games, music games, and platformers to look forward to. If you don't care for those genres, no problem, but that's not really the point you've been making.

I'd still love to know what must-buys on the 360 are going to be picking up the slack for you, because this fall/winter, I've got the Wii and the 360 in a deadheat for games (In descending order from "sure thing, must have" to "I'll probably buy it, assuming the reviews hold up," I'm planning on Galaxy/Mass Effect, Call of Duty 4/Zack & Wiki, and Assassin's Creed/Umbrella Chronicles or Moh2).

[dmaul1114]

Fair enough. But then the problem isn't "the console doesn't have enough real games to keep me satisfied," is it? There are absolutely more "real" games on that list than anyone could play in two months. It's like saying the 360 doesn't have any good games coming out in the fall, to which someone responds "Halo 3, Call of Duty 4, and The Orange Box." "Yeah, but I don't like shooters." Well, there ya go. Someone with a Wii and a broad range of interests in games has at-least-reasonably-good WWII shooters, strategy roleplaying games, minigame collections, wrestling games, puzzle/RPGs, arcade sports games, adventure games, racing games, action games, music games, and platformers to look forward to. If you don't care for those genres, no problem, but that's not really the point you've been making.


Fair enough, I could have worded it better. My main issue is "The Wii doesn't have enough games I consider to be AAA in genres I like to keep me satisfied." I've never said it doesn't have any games, just not enough to float my boat. Factor in the non-HD graphics ruling out any multiplatform games, and it's pretty thin. Just Mario as a must buy this year with Smash Bros slipping, and just a few games like Zak and Wiki that I may rent if I have time.



I'd still love to know what must-buys on the 360 are going to be picking up the slack for you, because this fall/winter, I've got the Wii and the 360 in a deadheat for games (In descending order from "sure thing, must have" to "I'll probably buy it, assuming the reviews hold up," I'm planning on Galaxy/Mass Effect, Call of Duty 4/Zack & Wiki, and Assassin's Creed/Umbrella Chronicles or Moh2).

In no particular order, here all that interest me in the two consoles libraries from launch through the end of the year.

Wii Must Haves through 2007: Zelda, Metroid Prime 3, Mario Galaxy
Wii Possible buys/rents: Zak and Wiki, Wii Zapper with Zelda, Resident Evil: UC, Warioware

360 Must Haves through 2007: Gears of War, Oblivion, Halo 3, Bioshock, Orange Box, Mass Effect, Sports Sims (NCAA Football, Fifa etc. will buy here for HD Graphics), Call of Duty 4
360 Possible buys/rents: Virtua Fighter 5, Viva Pinata, Assassin's Creed, Rock Band (and possibly GH2 & 3 if I decide to sell the PS2). I guess I'll throw Forza 2, Marvel: UA and Two Worlds in here as well, since I'd have put them here if the weren't already bought via the Fry's Bundle.

Guess I could also add that XBLA excites me more than the Wii VC as the latter is overpriced IMO. Especially since most that I'm interested in replaying I could legally emulate since I still have the carts boxed up somewhere.

So there's just more "must buy" type games on the 360 that excite me (in large part from being out 2 years and me just not getting one). Nothing wrong with the Wii library on it's face really, it's just not sufficient to be my number 1 console.

The Wii will either stay in my home theater just to play the big Nintendo games and the very infrequent third party game just like the N64 and GC, or I'll sell it and go 360 only (tempting since this year will have already seen a Zelda, Mario and Metroid which are my main Nintendo franchises).

[Strell]

I hope dumbmaul does sell his Wii after Galaxy.

Then he wouldn't be around in here anymore to end every post with some whiny emo "I'm going to sell my system" cliche.

[Zen Davis]

Fair enough, I could have worded it better. My main issue is "The Wii doesn't have enough games I consider to be AAA in genres I like to keep me satisfied." I've never said it doesn't have any games, just not enough to float my boat. Factor in the non-HD graphics ruling out any multiplatform games, and it's pretty thin. Just Mario as a must buy this year with Smash Bros slipping, and just a few games like Zak and Wiki that I may rent if I have time.




In no particular order, here all that interest me in the two consoles libraries from launch through the end of the year.

Wii Must Haves through 2007: Zelda, Metroid Prime 3, Mario Galaxy
Wii Possible buys/rents: Zak and Wiki, Wii Zapper with Zelda, Resident Evil: UC, Warioware

360 Must Haves through 2007: Gears of War, Oblivion, Halo 3, Bioshock, Orange Box, Mass Effect, Sports Sims (NCAA Football, Fifa etc. will buy here for HD Graphics), Call of Duty 4
360 Possible buys/rents: Virtua Fighter 5, Viva Pinata, Assassin's Creed, Rock Band (and possibly GH2 & 3 if I decide to sell the PS2). I guess I'll throw Forza 2, Marvel: UA and Two Worlds in here as well, since I'd have put them here if the weren't already bought via the Fry's Bundle.

Guess I could also add that XBLA excites me more than the Wii VC as the latter is overpriced IMO. Especially since most that I'm interested in replaying I could legally emulate since I still have the carts boxed up somewhere.

So there's just more "must buy" type games on the 360 that excite me (in large part from being out 2 years and me just not getting one). Nothing wrong with the Wii library on it's face really, it's just not sufficient to be my number 1 console.

The Wii will either stay in my home theater just to play the big Nintendo games and the very infrequent third party game just like the N64 and GC, or I'll sell it and go 360 only (tempting since this year will have already seen a Zelda, Mario and Metroid which are my main Nintendo franchises).
Again. The same post from all year round. I could find six different threads where you post the exact same content. You must really like reading your own posts and you're really coming off as a douchebag. I almost want to say you're jollydwarf with a different name.

[dmaul1114]

I don't like reading my posts, but I like annoying the hell out of you guys.

Mission accomplished. ;)

Aside from the occasional worthwhile deal in the deals section, about the only purpose this site serves is to entertain me at work (yes stuck in office on a Sunday) or during other down times (i.e. on the laptop during commercials during Red Sox game last night) by riling up the fanboys. What can I say, time goes faster by being a douchebag online, especially when loser fanboys and hardcore gamer nerds are involved. :D

[Strell]

Number of times dmaul reads my posts despite me being "on ignore": 3

Suspicious I'm actually ignored: very low.

Chance of dmaul being a baby: Absolute.

[Zen Davis]

I don't like reading my posts, but I like annoying the hell out of you guys.

Mission accomplished. ;)

Aside from the occasional worthwhile deal in the deals section, about the only purpose this site serves is to entertain me at work (yes stuck in office on a Sunday) or during other down times (i.e. on the laptop during commercials during Red Sox game last night) by riling up the fanboys. What can I say, time goes faster by being a douchebag online, especially when loser fanboys and hardcore gamer nerds are involved. :D
As I've said before, basically you're trolling. You add nothing to any thread you post in and then just admit that you're doing it to piss people off. I have half a mind to report you to the mods.

[dmaul1114]

Knock yourself out.