Free Radical's David Braben says you shouldn't buy used games!

[SL4IN]

From Destructoid:


If you happen to be the type of person who prefers the used game market in lieu of paying full price for your next fix in what amounts to an already expensive hobby, then Free Radical's David Braben has a few choice words for you. While you might be saving yourself some change, David wants you to know that developers are ending up on the short end of the stick when it comes to the second-hand gaming market. While absurd to most of us, his logic behind this is simple. Developers only get paid once for every title released, while retailers get 100% of the profits for themselves, every time a used game changes hands.
“Clearly from the developer and publisher point of view, the second-hand market is a real problem. The shops are essentially defrauding the rest of the industry by this practice, whether they intend it or not. It also means that while newly released games do still sell well, it is only a matter of a month or so before pre-owned stock often saturates the channel – with a single copy rumored to go around the sale/return/sale loop ten or more times – amounting effectively, to rental.”
Now I'll be the first person to scoff at how these specialty stores sell used games for just under the price of a sealed copy and give while giving you pennies on the dollar for trade-ins, but the thought of giving a "cut" back to developer/publishers (which is more or less what is being alluded to) sounds more like something out a Mafia novel. Best of all, just who exactly is going to pay for the difference? The customer, of course.
This brings to mind a few interesting questions: Are we looking at a future where all games will go the way of the MMO and require individual keys to unlock them each time they change hands? Does this give more ammunition to electronic distribution, and does it hasten the death knell of the already fragile rental market? Most of all, is anybody stopping them from selling used games? If this is such a big issue, then why not throw their hat in the mix, and offer us an incentive to sell our games back to them.

pretty interesting read, makes some good points. Pretty much for those who choose not to read, he suggests that consumers shouldn't buy used video games because devs don't get any of the cut from it, it goes straight to the retailer, and this practice of selling used games is unintentional fraud on the retailers part. Which in the end, according to david, puts devs on the short end of the stick and they end up losing money.

while I kinda agree with what he's saying, I work at a mom & pop shop equivalent video game store and we carry everything back to the atari. I can't tell you how many times we have people come in looking for the older consoles and their faces light up when we have the stuff they want in stock. while I fully believe in saving money and getting the best deal on video games, even if buying used is the only way, I don't see how this hurts the industry if any, at all. And in reality, if the idea of selling used games gets banished and retailers can only carry new items, then wouldn't video game deals in general go away too since devs/retailers won't make their proper cut?

anyway, discuss

link:http://www.gametab.com/news/1088974/

[paz9x]

itd be interesting to see what sales numbers were like if consumers new they wouldnt be able to recoup some of their money from resellign the game after they had their fill. sounds like some dev's dont understand that the money is most often rolled over directly into another game purchase.

[SNAKE EYES EX]

Used games are gross. I agree with him.

I rarely sell my games, if I do it's on ebay.

[benjamouth]

We may not like it but he's right, every time you buy used the devs get nothing, whereas GS announce another years record profits.

IMO both the used game sales problem and the drop in prices that he mentions could be solved if Video games were cheaper, but their cost is high for what is a luxury item, people are going to look to try and save money.

Maybe if a PS3 or 360 game started at $30-$40 people might be more inclined to buy new, and games wouldn't drop in price quite as quickly as some do.

[Mr Unoriginal]

If developers didn't make so many shitty games, I'd be more willing to drop top dollar.

[Dead of Knight]

You could make this argument for selling anything used. Fraud, my ass.

[Weedy649]

I'm sure some people will band together and feel the need to stop the evil empire of Gamestop but lets not forget when we trade games on CAG its the same thing.

Just the way things work, sorry David. If you feel its so hard then maybe you should open up a used game store and sell me the 1,000 copies of madden 04 you got in the back for a profit.

[paz9x]

You could make this argument for selling anything used. Fraud, my ass.
ding ding ding. pretty sure ford only gets paid once for their cars. think of how much more money theyd make if those dealerships wouldnt resell their cars without paying them a stipend. nevermind that the dealership, and like, though not always the game store taking a used game in partial trade for a new game. this is crybaby shit because they see someone else making money from their items. in reality i doubt theyd see little realistic change in games sold, as more peopel would buy the games new but would buy far fewer games. to someone who buys a game new and trades it in the actual cost of the games would jump from $30 (price after $35 trade in) to $65 ($5 CA tax)I my games purchased would go down drastically. as i buy 30-40% of my games used.

[SL4IN]

I'm sure some people will band together and feel the need to stop the evil empire of Gamestop but lets not forget when we trade games on CAG its the same thing.

Just the way things work, sorry David. If you feel its so hard then maybe you should open up a used game store and sell me the 1,000 copies of madden 04 you got in the back for a profit.

exactly. I can't tell you how many copies of madden and ncaa football 07 we have in the back that we ordered and no one bought. it's ridiculous.

[RelentlessRolento]

I rarely touch used games... For me it's either ebay or no way if it comes used. also for selling my stuff, ebay as well.

[Derrick1979]

His arguement is stupid to the point like someone else already stated that everyone selling anything used would be involved..

I buy used game's and they are usually older titles that you can not find in stores anymore (I don't deal with Ebay) and by the time I come around to them they are usually bargin bin games. Although I choose to buy some of the games used I only will buy used if they are complete.

As far as the newer used games where they are say $2-5 off new price if I must have it right away I will buy new full retail or wait till I can find it at a price drop if it is not a must have.

These developers need to think about the product they are putting out there like someone mentioned, and with the whole no returns on new items due to all the piracy out there people usually first opt will take the hit with the game stores because they want it now and do not want to deal with Ebay,Etc.

They will never win these arguments and out of all these developers and what not along with game mags who like to also be critics with this subject how many of them actually buy games? I can only imagine when your in the Game Industry there are not to many games you have to go out and purchase on your own.

Make better games and quit putting out crap to encourage people to buy it used or wait for clearance bin prices!!!

[The Mana Knight]

Well, to some extent, I do feel guilty about buying a used game by a publisher I like, because I want them getting my money. For a publisher I do not like (such as EA, Activision, etc.), I have no problems buying a used game they published.

[Zen Davis]

To everyone attacking the guy, I chalk it down to being cheap.

In technical terms he is right. Development teams are getting screwed over and if there wasn't a used gaming market, the overall videogame market would be a far bigger and healthier place. More money would be going back to developers who would be using it to make better games. It's no different than record companies raping artists and paying them cents on the CD they sell.

In the real world free market he is just expressing his opinion. Nothing wrong with that. I don't understand why people ALWAYS get so butt hurt when a developer expresses his opinion on anything. It's like you want to pretend that games that just make themselves and hence nothing associated with them should have an opinion.

[jer7583]

Gamestop is a blood sucking leech getting fat off of the hard work of developers, this I agree with.

But if developers/publishers want to slow sales of used games, prices of new games need to come down to a reasonable level. $60 is not reasonable. Until that happens, gamefly and gamestop will keep on eating their lunch on lesser titles people don't need to have immediately.

[Apossum]

yep, buying on ebay or at EBstop is about the same as downloading a game to developers and publishers.


but games are too fucking expensive. they need to find a way to reconcile the price of next gen games.

[y2kenjination]

Used games are gross. I agree with him.

I rarely sell my games, if I do it's on ebay.
What he said. I rarely, if ever buy used games. The only time I did was out of total desperation...there were some PSX titles I wanted to pick up after its lifespan was over, and I had no choice but to get them used. I had to buy several copies of the same games over eBay because I was unsatisfied with the condition of them.

It might have something to do with my horrible case of OCD (I seriously have to wash my hands whenever I touch something that I feel is dirty), I'm not a fan of used games in general. The fact that someone probably touched my second hand game after scratching his crotch or eating a nice greasy fried chicken seriously grosses me out

Oh, and there's also the fact that you're not supporting the company by buying something used.

[Puffa469]

Make new games $20 each and I'll never buy used again. For $60 you can kiss my ass.

Maybe publishers should do what the Automobile manufacturers did to combat used vehicle sales, develop a certified preowned program.

Instead of buying disc only, scratched up shit from Gamestop, why doesnt say... Capcom, offer to buy back games they've published at a reasonable price, then offer used games from their website, guaranteed complete, clean, scratch free, and offer a 30 day warranty or something, I'd buy my used games straight from the developer/publisher.

[camoor]

Everyone - have your fun while it lasts.

The game companies have three pontent sales techniques to combat the "used game" phenom, and I only see use of these techniques rising:

1) Download Distribution: If the only source of the game is online, you have no choice but to pay the developer what he's asking - expreimental ebay auctions testing the fair use right of an owner to sell his downloaded game have been shut down by the man. Console puzzle/arcade games are almost exclusively sold through this medium these days.
2) Extra download-only content - Similar to 1, buying new characters, levels, or horse armor extras are here to say. This method is very potent. To wit, EA has basically ceded that people in Asia will pirate Fifa games, so they have setup a business model based on selling download-only extras for their soccer games.
3) Online play - Increasingly I believe developers will setup conditions wherein if you want to play the game with other online players you are forced to buy the game early in it's lifecycle so you can play online while the servers are still up.

[CoffeeEdge]

You could make this argument for selling anything used. Fraud, my ass.
Agreed.

Seriously, that is the stupidest shit I've ever heard. I'm sure that auto manufacturers would also like for everyone to always buy $30,000 new cars, because Chevy doesn't see a goddamned dime when Big Al's Used Car Emporium sells a 20-year old Camero, either.

Videogames are (save for DL games) physical property, and once they're initially purchased, can and should be resold, traded, passed along, copied (for personal backup purposes), or whatever the hell the consumer wants to do with that physical game media they paid for. It all plays in to how more and more, companies are selling people licenses to use their products, rather than the products themselves, especially with software. It's fucking lame.


More money would be going back to developers who would be using it to make better games pay their executives' vacations and bonuses.
fix'd

[Zen Davis]

fix'd
Carmack's Ferrari says "Hi".

http://www.gamedev.net/community/memorial/seumas/SeumasCarmack02.jpg

What would happen is that developers would make a crap load of money - leave the companies they're working for and start up their own development companies and hence would help the industry grow as a whole.

[CoffeeEdge]

Carmack's Ferrari says "Hi".
Ha!! You think Carmack got rich on a programmer's salary? He got rich not from his programming salary, but because he was co-founder of id, and got a cut of the profits.

[Halo05]

Damn that's a nice car.

Anyhow, I buy new or used depending on the sales of the day. Since discovering CAG (and earlier, the CAG leech, bytesizedeals), I've gotten great deals on literally hundreds of new games. At this point, if the videogame industry died tomorrow, I'd still have way too big of a backlog for the rest of my life.

[The Crotch]

I do a crapload of buying used online through GameTZ, CAG, and occasionally eBay. I'll buy new only for certain games. Zack & Wiki? Buy new. NHL XX? Buy used. FIRE EMBLEM: GREATEST GAME IN THE UNIVERSE? Buy new.

[chakan]

I only pay full price for games that break the mold like Okami, Shadow of the Colossus, Zack and Wiki.

I support innovative developers. The rest, I wait for deals and buy used. I am afraid this choice will not be available in the next generation of gaming, but the industry had better be prepared for a Napsterish backlash if it thinks it can charge $60, every time, for every game downloaded.

[magiic]

As much as Im sure it condemns me to the inner cirle of hell but I RARELY buy new. I can get it cheaper used I will. I usually wait till the local video store has it's 2 for $40 sale PPV games and go for broke. Only games I've bought new recently are BioShock and Guitar Hero III

[GuilewasNK]

If the guy never bought house that wasn't built from the ground up on the day he bought it then he really can't say anything.

That being said, I prefer new because quality matters, but if it is used and quality is good then I'll by used.

[Xevious]

Generally speaking, the price markdown from EB games is not worth it to me. Sometimes the difference is only 2 dollars. I would rather buy a new game.

[dafoomie]

Here is the original article, and not somebody's blog:
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/28694/Pressure-piles-on-pre-owned

David Braben is not with Free Radical, he owns Frontier Developments. Free Radical made comments, AND Braben made separate comments.


Not that separating the comments between two sources makes them less ridiculous. You have the right of first sale in this country.

The first solution here is for developers to give you enough replay value that you won't sell or rent the game, either through a long campaign, extras, or online multiplayer. If games are short enough for one copy to go through the market "10 times" or whatever the claim was, you've failed as a developer. Your customers should not be 'done' with your game in basically a day.

The second solution is for publishers to stop flooding the market with more copies than the market can bear. Atlus and NIS have figured this part out.

[whoknows]

I sort of agree, like in GS case if you are buying a used game for only $5 less then just buy it new (for more than one reason).

If it's a game that deserves to be bought new (like most recently Tools of Destruction) then I'll buy it new for sure. Developers deserve the support when they put out high quality games.

[PenguinMaster]

I sort of agree, like in GS case if you are buying a used game for only $5 less then just buy it new (for more than one reason).


You shouldn't be buying from GS for only $5 less. You should wait for Buy 2 Get 1 Free, 25% off, or other deals that are only on used games plus use an edge card and get the games for $20 to $30 cheaper.

Games are released for far more expensive than they should be so I buy used games, it's that simple. While I agree that supporting the industry is good, it's not good to support overpriced games. Plus as stated everything that's bought used isn't supporting its industry, I highly doubt David Braben has bought all of his houses and cars brand new so he is most likely a hypocrite.

[Puffa469]

You shouldn't be buying from GS for only $5 less. You should wait for Buy 2 Get 1 Free, 25% off, or other deals that are only on used games plus use an edge card and get the games for $20 to $30 cheaper.


QFT. If your only saving $5 just buy the new copy.

However, theres no way I would spend $60 on a new game if I can get the same thing for $30-40.

[Tecumseh!]

If it's a game I'm certain about always keeping, eg: Bioshock, Okami, LoZ: Twilight Princess, I'll always buy it new. Aside those games, which I know I'll play through and probably revisit eventually, I've just spent too much money over the years buying games new (before there was really even a used games market) to justify NOT buying used these days. In the old days, you bought a game from EB, etc., and you didn't like it, you could return it for exchange. When stores stopped allowing opened returns for exchange, the compulsion to keep buying brand new went away pretty quickly thereafter. It really sucks for developers who aren't making Halo 3 or Metal Gear every time they release a game, but the cold, hard reality of the economy and marketplace dictate that it's impossible for average game players to pay full price for every game they own, because if they do, they(we) would own a heck of a lot fewer of them...

[jer7583]

For example I guarantee if some appealing but not AAA games like Conan, The Simpsons, and Ace Combat 6 were recently released at $40, they'd sell double what they will at $60, simply because that price is too high for impulse purchases, and people will wait to get them used at that price anyway.

[Rei no Otaku]

For example I guarantee if some appealing but not AAA games like Conan, The Simpsons, and Ace Combat 6 were recently released at $40, they'd sell double what they will at $60, simply because that price is too high for impulse purchases, and people will wait to get them used at that price anyway.
Did you just lump Ace Combat 6 in with Conan? Wow...

[CoffeeEdge]

David Braben is not with Free Radical, he owns Frontier Developments. Free Radical made comments, AND Braben made separate comments.
I email David Braben weekly, telling him to knock it off with the rollercoaster games, and actually make Elite IV.

[Puffa469]

I can NAME the games that got me to stop buying everything new and look for cheap used stuff.

For the PS2... State of Emergency, and Auto Modellista.

If a developer is pissed that I wait for cheap used games, go blame the sadistic bastards that made those turds.

[dafoomie]

I email David Braben weekly, telling him to knock it off with the rollercoaster games, and actually make Elite IV.
He's still making 'The Outsider'. The game sounds like the movie Shooter, or The Sentinel. CIA Agent is framed for killing the president, and hilarity ensues.

I think Elite IV is slated for Xbox 5200 and PS9 at this point. And if The Outsider flops... More Rollercoaster Tycoon and Wallace & Gromit for a while.

[CoffeeEdge]

He's still making 'The Outsider'. The game sounds like the movie Shooter, or The Sentinel. CIA Agent is framed for killing the president, and hilarity ensues.

I think Elite IV is slated for Xbox 5200 and PS9 at this point. And if The Outsider flops... More Rollercoaster Tycoon and Wallace & Gromit for a while.
Yes, I remember getting about The Outsider about two years ago. :/

[dafoomie]

Yes, I remember getting about The Outsider about two years ago. :/
Its scheduled for the holiday season of 09, so Elite is definitely not coming this decade.

[The Mana Knight]

I think the big issue is that game development can be quite high for some games, which is why games are $60. However, I do feel game pricing should vary more, like:

A first year or two sports game can retail for full price, due to creating a new engine. But after that (when it's mostly roster updates and tweaks), the price should be cheaper.

I feel Wii games should be no more than $40, unless it's a Zelda, Mario Galaxy, etc.

I feel music/dance games which only add new music (that come with no accessory) should not be full priced (like Guitar Hero, but it sells).

What pisses me off is that Gamestop will try to push a used copy on someone (like a $19.99 new game), saying we have a used copy for even cheaper, just $17.99, saving you $2. Or, it pisses me off more when they try getting pushy, telling someone they only get a 7 day warranty with a new game, while you get at 30 day warranty buying used (when you're screwing over the publisher there).

[tehweezner]

i see parallels with the music industry on this. i think the only way devs/musicians can get "all" the reward of their work is by distributing themselves online w/o physical media, like Radiohead has done recently.

when consoles become full-fledged computers (i guess they already are) then devs could have their own sites where you can download the game from only there. no middleman/distributors, just get the product straight from the source.

i'm actually for this idea if prices came down. i'd rather all my money go to the creators than anybody else.

[SpreadTheWord]

The first solution here is for developers to give you enough replay value that you won't sell or rent the game, either through a long campaign, extras, or online multiplayer. If games are short enough for one copy to go through the market "10 times" or whatever the claim was, you've failed as a developer. Your customers should not be 'done' with your game in basically a day.

DLC is a way that publishers can keep the game in the hands of the gamer but they seem to think it's more important to make as much money as possible from the download rather than give the gamer a reason to keep the game.

If you can get a gamer to buy DLC then he's much less likely to trade or sell that game when he's already invested into it through DCL.

[jer7583]

Did you just lump Ace Combat 6 in with Conan? Wow...

Well, Conan is ass but appeals to all the God of War kids, but AC6 is an excellent title that aims at a very small demographic.

[camoor]

i see parallels with the music industry on this. i think the only way devs/musicians can get "all" the reward of their work is by distributing themselves online w/o physical media, like Radiohead has done recently.

I see a similarity between music and video games in that they are both entertainment content businesses but it ends there.

The video game industry is actively taking steps to keep up with technology and changing business enviornment instead of fighting progress with lawyers and bribed politicians.

I don't see the video game companies banding together and suing Gamestop into Chapter 11, or getting game trading sites such as CAG shut down with threatening letters. Sure, there have been some isolated cases of idiocy (IE Sony suing Lik-Sang out of business) but it's nowhere near the level of suicidal stupidity taking place within the cartel-controlled music industry.

[Zen Davis]

Wii Ware.

[DQT]

Yeah, he has a right to be pissed, but then again how else are people going to get certain games once they go out of print? As mentioned before, GS/EB charging 5 dollars less for used copy is ridiculous, but shouldn't it be up to the consumer to decide whether or not they want to be ripped off?

I've bought a bunch of used games this year due to deals on this site, but they're so old, I'm certain the GS's and GC's I bought them at took a loss when I bought them and just wanted to clear inventory.

[pete5883]

This is part of why I avoid used games. Why would I send most of my money to retailers instead of developers/publishers? All the retailer did was take the game out of a box and put it on a shelf.

[cochesecochese]

Too many shit games. When the top tier games are worth the full $60 how can I possibly justify dropping that much on a piece of shit? I just gave up on having a backlog and buy only the games I really want and have time to play.

[Salmonday]

Which would they prefer: sets of one person buying a game at launch for $50 and then being able to trade it back in to be re-purchased nine more times, or sets of ten people who can't/don't/won't trade a game in and buy the same game a year after launch, still new, but for $5 a pop when the game has already been deemed a sales failure?

[MadFlava]

hence the push for digital distribution. If publishers/developers can cut out the retail stores and make you purchase and download games onto your console for use, then there goes your used game market. I think, this is what eventually will happen once download speeds increase.

[schuerm26]

Just a question for people who think Digital Distribution is anywhere close to being a reality.

How big is Bioshock? Or how big will Final Fantasy XIII be?

My guess is huge (I have no clue about the technical stuff).

How long would it take to download?

By going all digital, do you have any idea how much of the gaming population would be cut off from getting the game?

Isn't that a selling point of Blu-Ray, that it could hold more info? Isn't that just a s==tload more information to try to transfer? Can a whole game like that be store on the PS3's hard drive, if so how many of them could fit (I honestly don't know so please someone let me know).

I wouldn't think it would happen for a long long long time, and games don't seem to be getting any smaller on PS3 or 360.

[CoffeeEdge]

Just a question for people who think Digital Distribution is anywhere close to being a reality.
Hi, please meet my friend Steam (http://steampowered.com).

I don't think that physical game media sold at retail will ever go away, especially for console games, but digital distribution, as another purchasing option happily co-existing alongside traditional retail, is here, and in a big way.

How big is Bioshock?
I dunno, why not ask one of the thousands of people who bought and downloaded it via Steam?

About 6 gigs, by the way.

How long would it take to download?
Well, not necessarily much longer than it might take to head out to a store and buy it, for some people. :P

Actually, Steam has the capability to "stream" games, downloading essential game files first, and letting you play a game before it's done downloading. Unfortunately, hardly any games use this feature.

Perhaps a more useful feature is the "preloading" system. For new games, Steam allows users to download, but not actually play, a game shortly before it's retail release date, and when the release date arrives, the already-downloaded game is instantly made available to play.

[schuerm26]

Hi, please meet my friend Steam (http://steampowered.com).

I don't think that physical game media sold at retail will ever go away, especially for console games, but digital distribution, as another purchasing option happily co-existing alongside traditional retail, is here, and in a big way.


I dunno, why not ask one of the thousands of people who bought and downloaded it via Steam?

About 6 gigs, by the way.


Well, not necessarily much longer than it might take to head out to a store and buy it, for some people. :P

Actually, Steam has the capability to "stream" games, downloading essential game files first, and letting you play a game before it's done downloading. Unfortunately, hardly any games use this feature.

Perhaps a more useful feature is the "preloading" system. For new games, Steam allows users to download, but not actually play, a game shortly before it's retail release date, and when the release date arrives, the already-downloaded game is instantly made available to play.

The thousands that bought it? Doesn't that just prove the point that it is nowhere close to being a reality for pretty much the entire market? Big games like Bioshock are million sellers and only thousands downloaded it?

Im not questioning that it will eventually be bigger but that seems a long long ways off.

[lordxixor101]

David Braben is simply using flawed logic in his arguments here. I hear this argument all the time, and I think it's dead wrong.

Remember that MANY people who buy a brand new game do not keep it. They are willing to pay $60 for a new game because they know they can sell it in a month for $30. In their mind, they are only paying $30 for the game. Hence, the person buying the used game for $30 is basically buying a new game a month late for half the price. He is helping the industry, because if this used market was completely destroyed (something that can't really happen because of Ebay if disc based games are created), it would hurt some new game sales (as people wait for cheaper prices).

I think most of the companies are ticked that people buy a used game from Gamestop for $55, when the new is $60, and they aren't getting their cut of it. It's probably worse now with Gamestop having a virtual monopoly on used games (in stores), so they are having less sales than ever. If most of those $55 games were sold in buy 2 get 1, then it is doable.

That being said, I can see his partial argument. If I was a developer, and I saw someone buying a used game for $5 less than the new, and Gamestop is making 3x their money, while I get nothing, that would turn my stomache some. If I can get the new game for a very small percentage more than used, I'll buy new (if I'm paying $45 for a used game, I'll pay $50 for new).

But, he needs to qualify here. It's those sales that hurt the developers. If you are buying NBA 2K5 for $2 from Gamestop right now, you really aren't hurting anyone (or even $17 in a B2G1, you are helping the industry to some extent.

Plus, if that is the case, shouldn't we all just start downloading our games, as opposed to buying used? I doubt he wants that.

[GuilewasNK]

hence the push for digital distribution. If publishers/developers can cut out the retail stores and make you purchase and download games onto your console for use, then there goes your used game market. I think, this is what eventually will happen once download speeds increase.

I'll be the first to admit, I wasn't keen on DLC, but Live Marketplace is pretty sweet. I love old-school gaming and there is something cool about buying a full game while sitting on your ass, instead of driving to a store and waiting in line.

It will be a long time before we are downloading the huge games of this generation though (I need to see how far along Internet 2 is coming).

[Chacrana]

I don't buy used games, but I don't like people telling me what I can and can't buy, either. So I'll just not buy Free Radical's games... they suck anyway...

[Gentlegamer]

If publishers try to cut out retailers, retailers will simply cut out the console manufacturer. It's a vicious circle.

[PyroGamer]

If he released games for a price people were willing to pay, a reasonable price, then people wouldn't have to buy used.

Don't give me shit about not buying used games when you release your crap for $60.

[GuilewasNK]

If publishers try to cut out retailers, retailers will simply cut out the console manufacturer. It's a vicious circle.

MS, Sony, and Nintendo can still all their own hardware via their own sites, though.

[CoffeeEdge]

The thousands that bought it? Doesn't that just prove the point that it is nowhere close to being a reality for pretty much the entire market? Big games like Bioshock are million sellers and only thousands downloaded it?
Don't take what I said literally. I was just making an extremely conservative guess. It could be tens of thousands. Hundreds, but I doubt it.

Steam sales figures are never made available to the public. However, based on some statements from Valve, and conjecture drawn from those statements, people have estimated that Valve has sold at least 1 million copies of HL2 via Steam. Valve says that they do about 25% of their total sales via Steam. That's nothing to sneeze at.

Again, digital distribution is here, and it's holding it's own.

[Sideswiper]

Authors have dealt with this problem forever. When a library buys a book, the author and publisher get paid ONCE, yet the book can be read by any number of people! Yet, somehow, good authors can still make a living. Developers who make good games will make enough money, there's nothing to worry about.

[blandstalker]

If he released games for a price people were willing to pay, a reasonable price, then people wouldn't have to buy used.

Don't give me shit about not buying used games when you release your crap for $60.

I think this summarizes my thoughts pretty well.

With the movie industry, movies are more expensive than ever. Yet, when DVDs are released for home sale, you can get them for $16-$18 on average.

The movie industry figured out that they sell more if it's priced less. It wasn't always this way, as many here can attest. The two industries are not completely comparable; movies earn money at the box office first. But I'm sure that the movie industry swore up and down in the pre-DVD era that they had to price movies the way they did in order to make a profit. And yet they still do, and more of one to boot.

The Greatest Hits/Platinum/Players Choice lines show that the video game manufacturers get this concept somewhat. I'm sure they've done the math about releasing new games at this price point, and the reason they don't is that they make more money doing it the current way. Of course, nobody yet has really released a great title (i.e. they knew it was great and would sell like hotcakes) for $20, so they don't really know for sure.

[Kaijufan]

Yeah $50-60 is a really bad price point for games, they should be released with a MSRP of $30, same as most DVDs.

[johnnypark]

It's been said already but I'll say it again, they're too fucking expensive.

I'm willing to buy a new DS or PSP game when it comes out because I know I'll pay $40 at the most, with an average being much closer to $30, and pre-order prices online sometimes being as low as $25.

Not to mention that so many games are so short. I was so excited about Ultimate Spider-Man, but you can seriously beat it in 2 days, and if it wasn't for all the filler bullshit they put in, you could beat the story mode in 2 HOURS. Wouldn't it be nice of there was a minimum of hours per dollar, maybe 5 hours for every $10 (of course, excluding multiplayer and the like)?

This is one of the main reasons I have such little interest in the 360/PS3, although prices have been going down as the systems and older games age.

[Sideswiper]

If buying used is so terrible, is renting worse or better?

When you make a game that takes 2 hours to beat, forgive me if I'd rather pay a few bucks to rent it than $60 to buy it and have it taunt me with its inadequateness.

[nectarsis1]

^ Good point...does Blockbuster/Netflix..etc send a check regulary to the movie studios as a payment for the right to rent the movie?? As said before, auto manufacturers don't get a cut on used auto sales...I just sold my living room set..better send Broyhill a check :roll:

[ArthurDigbySellers]

Make new games $20 each and I'll never buy used again. For $60 you can kiss my ass.

Maybe publishers should do what the Automobile manufacturers did to combat used vehicle sales, develop a certified preowned program.

Instead of buying disc only, scratched up shit from Gamestop, why doesnt say... Capcom, offer to buy back games they've published at a reasonable price, then offer used games from their website, guaranteed complete, clean, scratch free, and offer a 30 day warranty or something, I'd buy my used games straight from the developer/publisher.

Quoted for ma-fuckin' truth!

And as someone else said, if developers cut the retailers out of the equation by going totally digital, then stores will retaliate by giving up the sale of hardware. That is why you won't see Nintendo, Sony, or Microsoft ever offer a game only through digital channels (besides the smaller retro and indie-type games). They don't want to run the risk of pissing off the retailers to the point where they stop selling their hardware. This very reason is why Warhawk sold for $40 over PSN. Sony had to price it close to retail to avoid causing an issue with retailers.

So as long as this dysfunctional relationship exists between console manufacturers and retailers, digital distribution is not going to solve the problem because the digital content will be priced the same, or nearly the same as the physical product.

Drop game prices to the same level as DVD and every developer would benefit.

[dwhelan]

This is part of why I avoid used games. Why would I send most of my money to retailers instead of developers/publishers? All the retailer did was take the game out of a box and put it on a shelf.

Because either way you are paying the store, not the developer. GS buys the games from the publisher, the game is then purchased (and for the maniac few, this is the point at which it should be seen as used) and then sells the new game to the customer. The developer has now received their money, the only thing sales determines is how many more are ordered and if the developer signed a buy back agreement, how many they are actually going to get stuck with. So no matter what, you are giving GS your money, the question is what percentage.

The next thing and the part that amazes me is this, David Barben has said that, even though he has done nothing, not produced another disk, not packaged it, not shipped it, or not sold it to a retailer, he deserves a kick back. Why does he deserve this? He made a game, tested it, packaged it, and sold it, for that he recieved compensation. This is where the transaction ends. Heck, Valva atleast produces new CD keys for the 5 bucks you give them to have the ability to resell your steam games. That I can justify, but David Barben has done nothing and for that, he gets nothing.

[SaraAB]

Probably at least 85-90% of video game consumers are average people who do not study prices of video games like people on this site do. Dare I say that the majority of the game-buying public, at least at christmas time, is gift giving soccer moms? Case in point is if one of these people sees a game at 60$ and another game at 19.99 right next to it 9 times out of 10 they will buy the 19.99 game and think, oh its cheaper, its still a video game my giftee will love it. Everyone wants cheap games, the only people willing to pay 60$ for a game are hardcore gamers who really want the game. Yes most of these people (sans the hardcore gamers) can easily get sucked into gamestop's buy more trade more play more philosophy which not only screws the developer but takes money out of the customers hands without them knowing it.

You would be surprised how easily people will pay 5$ less for that used game because they are so desperate to save that 5$ on that video game purchased for their son or daughter and to these people its a big savings, the employees also make it sound like a big savings. Its extremely easy to get people to purchase a used copy of game x even if its only marked down 2$, gamestop knows this and they take full advantage of it.

My whole point here is people want cheap games, and used games vs new games really does not matter when people want cheap games, or at least 90% of the game buying public does. NO parent out there wants to pay 60$ for their kids video game, and oftentimes they don't. If games were lower prices, say 30-40$ for the most expensive games, more people would definitely buy new, however the used game market would still exist. But then what would happen is people would get used to the 30-40$ price tag and say that that is too expensive, and they would start hunting down sources of cheaper games again, such as used games. This has been an argument since the 1980's and the used game market still prevalis because people want cheaper games, and this will always be the case, even if the price point of games changes. Since Gamestop blurs the line between used and new so much, people just think of it in terms of saving money, not in terms of used vs new, or in terms discussed here in this article.

[2mcgrath]

i buy used games all the time,from gamestop . games are really exspensive,and when your on a budget you gotta do what you can.sometimes i will buy new games though.

if the game is only a couple bucks cheaper than the new one,then i buy the new one.but noway am i gonna pay retail for games that are a couple years old.ill just pick up a used copy

[Chronis]

So we shouldn't by used games because the developers don't get profits? But they do! Let's say that I bought Trauma Center on the Wii used. Got it much cheaper than I would have new, so I saved money and was happy. But now Atlus says "Hey, we're making Trauma Center 2!" Well, I liked the first so much, I'll go and buy the second, most likely new. And there they get profit. Companies have got to realize that increases in sales from sequel to sequel will tend to show how many fans have been attained from the used market. You think Halo 3 became so popular because every person alive bought Halos 1 and 2 new? No! Many people bought it because they liked the first two, wther they bought it new or used, or rented it.

I'm not saying the used game market is completely good though. At least for developers and publishers. Games that are too short and/or not good enough to keep often head to Gamestop. If they aren't good, why should companies get a false sense of security about their games? Sega does. So many copies of the new bad Sonic games fly off the shelves, new. But head to Gamestop or whereever, and you're almost gauranteed to find the latest Sonic their used. Then whoever picks up those used copies often makes their own opinion. And I'm sure this has to be reflected in the sales of bad games. I'm sure they sell less and less each year. *not to affend fans of the series but I've grown to dislike each and every 3D iteration more and more than the last.*

[vherub]

This problem will begin to solve itself once digital distribution channels mature.
It is beginning to make more sense to purchase a title directly from the comfort of your own home- and certainly so if you are buying a cartridge/disc only from an eb.
Price, ease of transaction, guranteed to work and no worry of good being lost/broken are great things.
I buy used games when the game is no longer easy to find new, sometimes my wait is deliberate, more often because I have a backlog and don't need to buy a game 6 months after it came out, in which cases the new window has closed.

Again, the solution for this is coming, ebgames doesn't earn a dime when I buy a backlist title off VC. Companies need to ramp up so that they can regain the mid list titles that can find an audience 1-4 years after the title releases.