Is the view on challenge in games universal?

[Feigr]

This topic is something I've been thinking about putting into text for quite some time but I didn't really know where to post it. This seems like a good place since forums like 1up or Gamespot are just bad when it comes to anything not superficial.

This might come off as me whining about how games work but I do of course realize that game developers do not tailor their games to any specific person. I wanted to explain my view on this subject because I always get a lot of flak when I mention it to other people that play games.

So, the main point is that I personally do not play games for challenge. I do not appreciate that in games and it is not entertaining for me. When I play games I want to feel superior and win/beat/clear everything without effort. That to me is entertaining.
The thing is that this is pretty much the opposite of what most people think, and I've heard all of the macho BS responses to this. I can't really understand why people get so defensive about this issue, they can't seem to handle the fact that someone doesn't appreciate the same facets of gaming as themselves.
The games I enjoy most are RPGs since you can usually level up and therefor tailor the difficulty to your own liking. I also play alot of vertical shmups which might seem strange since they are often very hard but the console versions of those games usually have unlimited continues and therefor you can always finish them and I don't care about high scores.

I've been playing games for a long time, ever since I got my first Amiga 2000 at the age of 6 or 7 and I can remember being really frustrated by most games I played at that time since they were very unforgiving. I used to play lots of adventure games like Full Throttle, The Dig, Day of the Tentacle and those aren't hard in the same way that old Nintendo games are, since you can do it at your own pace and figure stuff out without any time pressure.
I never completed any game until way later, the very first console game I can remember beating Prince of Persia The Sands of Time, and the first console RPG I finished was Dragon Quest 8.
I can't really say that I get any satisfaction from beating something that is hard, that is probably why I don't appreciate challenging games. Most people I guess get a big sense of accomplishment when they beat a hard game but for me it's just like whatever, it doesn't weigh up the frustration and I just don't really care.

You could explain all this by saying that I'm just bad at games and I can't really disagree (but I'm not agreeing either). I'm certainly not good at FPS games even though I enjoy playing them. I used to play tons and tons of Doom and Quake and Duke Nukem 3D back in the day, always with godmode turned on. I don't think I've ever played Doom without godmode actually. For me it was just natural to have godmode, I see that as an integral part of the game experience and without godmode it feels like something is lacking.

I can sometimes regret not being patient enough but I just can't handle games that frustrate me at makes me do things over and over again. For example in God of War I came to a point were I died three or four times on the same enemies and that was it for me, I turned off the game and put it on the shelf and I haven't touched it since.

I guess most of the people that read this are in that category that they enjoy challenging games and I was hoping to hear what you think about this.

[InuFaye]

You Joined to make this topic?

I like games with a challange.

I dont like when games hold my hand.

[Feigr]

You Joined to make this topic?

I like games with a challange.

I dont like when games hold my hand.

If I did join to make this topic it was more or less subconcious, I have been reading the forums for a while a week or two ago.

I don't really like games that hold my hand either, it's not about that for me. When it comes to RPGs I actually prefer games that leave you alone. For example I couldn't stand Final Fantasy X because it was just an endless barrage of juvenile drivel dialog cut scenes and the actual gameplay consisted of running to a certain point to trigger the next dialog cut scene. I want to grind XP, kill monsters and get new cool items. That's why I love the old Dragon Quest. You get the whole premise of the game at the beginning and it sends you on your way to accomplish this objective without further interrupting the gameplay with pointless yabbering.
This is also an opinion I guess I'm in a minority with. :)

[InuFaye]

If I did join to make this topic it was more or less subconcious, I have been reading the forums for a while a week or two ago.

I don't really like games that hold my hand either, it's not about that for me. When it comes to RPGs I actually prefer games that leave you alone. For example I couldn't stand Final Fantasy X because it was just an endless barrage of juvenile drivel dialog cut scenes and the actual gameplay consisted of running to a certain point to trigger the next dialog cut scene. I want to grind XP, kill monsters and get new cool items. That's why I love the old Dragon Quest. You get the whole premise of the game at the beginning and it sends you on your way to accomplish this objective without further interrupting the gameplay with pointless yabbering.
This is also an opinion I guess I'm in a minority with. :)

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[jkanownik]

blah blah blah

Buy a Wii.

[InuFaye]

Buy a Wii.

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[Feigr]

Buy a Wii.

I bought a Wii at launch and I've been having lots of fun with it. Recently I've been playing a lot of Geometry Wars Galaxies and I still have a bit to finish in Super Paper Mario.
I spend most of my time playing on my DS though, epsecially Dragon Quest Monsters Joker, there is always something to do in that game, even though I've technically finished it I still need to level up more to take on Solitaire.

[javeryh]

I would say you are in the definite minority. I play games for the challenge. To me there is nothing better than a perfectly tuned game that doesn't hold your hand, works your brain a bit and works your reflexes a lot. I get so much more out of a game where I feel like I had to struggle a little or think outside the box. IMO, games are becoming too easy these days (although I detest brutally hard games like Ghosts-n-Goblins or something that is hard for the sake of being hard - those aren't fun at all).

[dmaul1114]

I don't like hard games either.

I like some challenge, I don't want to blow through the whole game without ever dying, getting stuck on a puzzle etc.

But at the same time I have no patience for having to fight a boss 20 times to beat him, or cheap AI in games like CoD4 on hardened or Veteran and so forth.

Games that are ideal difficulty for me are something like Zelda where you have a challenge in solving puzzles or figuring out how to beat a boss. Not in twitch reflexes, or bossess you have to hit a gazillion times to kill while they only have to hit you a handful to kill you etc.

Mass Effect was about right too, pretty hard early on, but if you do all the sidequests and level up/get good equipment the later parts of the game are pretty easy.

I guess mainly if I'm frustrated more than 5% of the time I'm playing a game, I'm probably not going to bother with it. I have enough stress in real life and play games to unwind. Over hard games that piss me off and raise my blood pressure defeat that purpose.

I don't play them for sense of accomplishment. I get that in the real world through my research work, hitting the gym, social accomplishments etc.

But it's just a different strokes for different folks kind of thing. There's plenty of uber hard games out there for those that like them, and plenty of easier games for those of us who don't. And the majority of games have variable difficulty so we can play them on normal, and those who like challenge can play them on higher difficulty levels.

[botticus]

I couldn't really say if there's a majority opinion. I don't play games for the challenge, I play it for the fun. If the fun happens to come from a challenge the developer has provided, then so be it. But I don't play games to get stressed out.

There are plenty of people for which overcoming tough challenges is much more enjoyable, and more power to them.

[daroga]

I couldn't really say if there's a majority opinion. I don't play games for the challenge, I play it for the fun. If the fun happens to come from a challenge the developer has provided, then so be it. But I don't play games to get stressed out.

There are plenty of people for which overcoming tough challenges is much more enjoyable, and more power to them.This.

[Dr Mario Kart]

For example I couldn't stand Final Fantasy X because it was just an endless barrage of juvenile drivel dialog cut scenes and the actual gameplay consisted of running to a certain point to trigger the next dialog cut scene.

I like challenging games, but I agree with this. FFX was garbage and killed the series for me.

[InuFaye]

I like challenging games, but I agree with this. FFX was garbage and killed the series for me.

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[The Crotch]

I suggest moving to Japan. Games tend to be easier there. Also, they're all on cell-phones, or so I understand. And something about giant lizards destroying cities every couple of months.

Myself, I love a good challenge - hence my affection for Fire Emblem and X-COM. That's not to say that I don't also like something I can breeze through, like Shining Force 2 or my Favourite Game of All Time, Wind Waker. I like to keep a balance between my AHM GONNA FACKING KILL YOU! games and my non-hair-pulling games.

In conclusion, you're a pussy and you're ruining gaming worse than HD, Nintendo, MMORPGs, and Jack Thompson combined.

[cochesecochese]

I couldn't really say if there's a majority opinion. I don't play games for the challenge, I play it for the fun. If the fun happens to come from a challenge the developer has provided, then so be it. But I don't play games to get stressed out.

There are plenty of people for which overcoming tough challenges is much more enjoyable, and more power to them.

This. The God Hands, the Ninja Gaidens (yes, I know they're both action games), and now the Monster Hunter games (I play with it instead of fighting it like I used to) and other series that are a challenge where skill is involved are endlessly entertaining to me. When a game mops the floor with my pathetic ass but allows me to rape a level afterwards when I'm a little bit better at it then I'm all for it.

When a game is needlessly cheap and is more luck based than skill based I usually put it down after a few levels and try something else. I can't stand cheap games. At all.

[ananag112]

Depends on the game for me and the type of mood I am in. I love easy, hard and everything in between.

[LostRoad]

I dont see why you would even bring this up. Games today arnt that hard at all. If you just want to breeze though what ever you are playing you shouldnt have that much trouble at all finding games to do that in. Really if its too hard for you then dont play it simple as that. For me I have always been an RPG guy first so if the story is good I am fine everthing else is second to me.

[Slim Gatsby]

I'm all for a challenge as long as its not stupidly difficult; if its too easy and doesn't have some kind of amazing story that moves very quickly, I'm going to get very bored, very quickly.

Progressive difficulty? Hell yes; I just beat Portal and I'm working through the advanced maps. Somehow, it manages to be a challenging puzzle game, quite difficult in some parts, yet manages to not be frustrating.

[Wlogan31]

I like challenging games, but I agree with this. FFX was garbage and killed the series for me.

Couldn't agree more on both fronts

[InuFaye]

Couldn't agree more on both fronts

I think CAG is full of idiots today.

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[Feigr]

I dont see why you would even bring this up. Games today arnt that hard at all. If you just want to breeze though what ever you are playing you shouldnt have that much trouble at all finding games to do that in. Really if its too hard for you then dont play it simple as that. For me I have always been an RPG guy first so if the story is good I am fine everthing else is second to me.

Well some games I enjoyed playing got too hard at some point. God of War I already mentioned and Prince of Persia Warrior Within is another, I could never beat the final boss in that game.
The type of games that I like are often the games that tend to be a bit challenging at some point and I guess that is where my frustration comes from, I want to play these games and enjoy them but the difficulty makes it hard for me to do so.
I can't really say that I have the right to demand that game developers make all their games easier since most gamers want the challenge.

For when it comes to finding an RPG that suits me (I'm rather picky), the story doesn't factor in at all. It comes down to two things, either the story is annoying and in the way and ruins the game, or the story is just there in the background and leaves you alone and that's how I want it. I think that was why I liked WoW so much, it just dropped you into the world and immediately you are questing and leveling and gettings items. No dialog, no princess to save, no impending doom that you have to defeat.
Also if the game has turn-based battles it's a huge plus. ;)

[DoubleEcksZero]

I hate when games hold my hand, but I also hate when games are ungodly hard in an unfair way, but I LOVE it when games are ungodly hard, but in a completely fair way. For example if a boss on normal can be hit whenever, but on hard he can't only be hit every 3rd day of the month thats so ridiculous. Like when the windows of opportunity are like a millisecond long.

[Photomotoz]

I agree with you but not completely. First off, I agree that I play games to have fun not to get frustrated or angry. But I do not think that games should be just cakewalk. I agree with you on RPGs being a sort of choose your own difficulty thing to some extent. And the little bit about adventure games is also true.

I completely disagree on the Doom thing. The god-mode thing is taking it a tad far. You have to have SOME challenge, I mean in an RPG you might want that to get to the story but in terms of Doom, it is all about the gameplay which includes the difficulty. And Doom is not that hard of a game at all. I can see your point maybe being true in something that is genuinly hard but not Doom.

A game like Guitar Hero 3 when compared to Guitar Hero 2 or 1 looks dumb. They took the difficulty and just ramped it up by a whole notch. To the point where it stops being fun and is more of a chore. I can see you argument there making a lot of sense.

You can't say you do not get more satisfaction from completing something really hard. I really do not believe that that is possible. Although it might be outweighted by the fact that it took you all this work to get there.

Anyway, I agree but I think you are taking it a bit far.

And yeah, to add to the sub-discussion on FFX. I liked it a lot. The characters were 'eh' but the gameplay was awesome. I loved the leveling system and pretty much everything except most of the characters being whiny. It is a very solid game with an above average story with whiny characters.

[camoor]

For me - it's all about having the right challenge level.

If a game is hard chances are you never use the cool weapons or interesting solutions because you're trying too hard to just survive.

[The Dord]

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[InuFaye]

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/9619/6lta042mq7.gif

You are Ingenious Sir.

I never would have thought of quoting someone with the exact same picture they used!!!!

I take that and raise you this!!!!!

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[Gentlegamer]

Real men play hard games.

[kainzero]

A game like Guitar Hero 3 when compared to Guitar Hero 2 or 1 looks dumb. They took the difficulty and just ramped it up by a whole notch. To the point where it stops being fun and is more of a chore. I can see you argument there making a lot of sense.
I don't know about that.
I haven't played much of Guitar Hero 3 but I did play a lot of rhythm games like Beatmania, and I loved how the game would step up every year in terms of difficulty because it gives you something to shoot for. It's funny because in Beatmania IIDX 4th there were some songs that looked utterly impossible but after IIDX 6th rolled around, those songs weren't as hard as they looked because the additional songs in 5th and 6th allowed you to ride a more gentle learning curve to the hardest songs.

I think especially in rhythm games, it all comes down to how the learning curve presents itself. I get repeatedly frustrated in Rock Band because of how that's presented; gentle rhythm sections and mega-hard solo sections near the end of the song, forcing me to play those easy boring rhythm sections.

A game like Dodonpachi, you look at the last boss and he seems impossible! But if you play the game from the beginning, you can see it ramp up and get more difficult and you can see ways to improve. It's not completely perfect; from stage 3 to 4 and 4 to 5 are big jumps in difficulty, but you can still somewhat visualize a path to get better.

I think that's how difficulty should be; you need to visualize a path to get better to complete challenges, and it should be done in a smooth manner. This is why I dislike EXP and other RPG elements in today's games... why do I have to level up so that my character can learn a new move? The player should be the one learning, not the player's character.

RPGs are more unique. I dislike grinding and easy random battles... all battles should make you think and prepare... which is ironic because Dragon Quest is my favorite RPG series and is probably the only game I love grinding so that I get new skills in the various classes. On the other hand, most of the skills in both 6 and 7 are not particularly overpowering against bosses as you still need to work to find decent tactics. It's also a big reason why I prefer DQ to FF... the bosses in Final Fantasy are usually just straight up gimmicky needing one or two particular strategies that can only be applied to that boss.

[lordxixor101]

I don't think I play a game for the "challenge" of it. But, there has to be a happy medium.

I don't want to just cakewalk the game from one end to the other. At the same time, I don't ever want to feel "stuck". I will usually give a game some time to get unstuck, but it loses something for me then. I know the GTA games I've been stuck in all of them, and it''s really frustrating when you can't beat anything for 3 straight days. Sure, I feel something when I beat that hard level, but it's relief.

I really don't care if the game is cheap or not, if I'm stuck, I'm stuck.

Though, saying all that, I managed to beat Ninja Gaiden Black (and play many of the "hard" games that come out, like Ikaruga, etc).

[Apossum]

So, the main point is that I personally do not play games for challenge. I do not appreciate that in games and it is not entertaining for me. When I play games I want to feel superior and win/beat/clear everything without effort. That to me is entertaining.



I can understand that. It's sort of like playing Contra with 30 lives-- it's just fun to play through, even if there isn't an immediate threat on the other end. For me, there's a balance. I like a challenge I can overcome, but I'm not about to practice DMC4 for hours a day just to beat Hell or Hell mode (one hit deaths for you, but not the enemy.) Son of Sparda (the "hard" mode in the game) mode is just right though-- I die sometimes, but at the end of my session, I'll have made significant progress.

Your points are valid OP. A lot of the games I play would still be fun without the difficulty level jacked up, since there are other fun elements to a game besides the challenge. Ninja Gaiden is still fun on Ninja Dog mode, God of War is still fun on normal, Contra is fun with 30 lives, Halo can be fun on easier difficulties, same with Doom-- all because they are fun games at the core before the difficulty factors in.


but I'm not gonna lie, for me, it wouldn't feel right firing up Doom and flipping on God mode immediately. :lol:

[dmaul1114]

You can't say you do not get more satisfaction from completing something really hard. I really do not believe that that is possible. Although it might be outweighted by the fact that it took you all this work to get there.


If I play something I think's too hard, I'm dying over and over, getting pissed off, blood pressure rising and wanting to throw the controller through the TV. etc.....

...then no, I don't get any satisfaction out of it. I get a sense of relief that it's fucking over.

The types of challenge I get some satisfaction out of are figuring out a puzzle in Zelda or Portal etc. Something that requires intelligence and creativity. I get none out of challenge that is based on twitch reflexes, button pressing ability, aiming skill etc. in most cases. Games that rely on that stuff I tend to only get into if I like the story, setting, etc. i.e. there's something more than just the gameplay that sucks me in.

[guinaevere]

I prefer a challenging game. I get more enjoyment out of improving my skills and finally beating a difficult game than if it were a simple affair anyone could do or a lot of people could do with cheats.

Think you'll find most people who want a challange and want to tackle it straight on in games are like that in life. Those I know who want a cheat code or similar contrivance in a game are the same folks that want an easy time at school or work, rather than actually accomplishing something on their own. At least, that's been my experience.

[dmaul1114]

Think you'll find most people who want a challange and want to tackle it straight on in games are like that in life. Those I know who want a cheat code or similar contrivance in a game are the same folks that want an easy time at school or work, rather than actually accomplishing something on their own. At least, that's been my experience.

I'm totally opposite of that. I bust my ass in school (dissertation away from my Ph D) and in my research work. That's where I enjoy challenging myself.

When I come home from that I just want to sit back and relax. So overly challenging games just don't do it for me anymore. They were fine when I was younger, but now with all my work stress and lack of free time I just have no patience for hard games.

An overly hard game is just going to get turned off and I going to put on a movie and grab a tasty brew instead.

But I do like some challenge, just not uber hard stuff like Ninja Gaiden or playing games on harder than normal difficulty etc. That just gets my blood pressure up and defeats the purpose of using gaming to unwind after a long day/week.

[guinaevere]

You have shown me a new view to consider, dmaul.

[vherub]

Depends on the learning curve, and the transparency of that curve.
I find the Zeldas to be too easy, and the Marios to be closer to just right. Ninja Gaiden (xbox) was hard, but it got very hard very fast without explicitly teaching you how to parry and attack.
New football titles I also find too challenging, because I haven't sunk the time with them each year and their complications have passed me by. RPGs are more forgiving because that learning curve is very, very slow. If you spent the same 40 hours on an rpg that you would mastering a "hard" game, it would no longer feel hard. So again, the key is to make that learning curve gentle.
Contra (nes) is considered very difficult. but because it was two-player co-op, had a near unlimited lives code, was very short (and I had it at a time when I did not have tons of games, nor exposure to a gaming culture via the internet) I played it so often that it stopped being difficult. I was playing Metal Slug 3 with a friend, and the difficult, especially the last level, was simply too hard. I don't think it was anymore difficult than contra, but it felt more frustrating.

Personally, I think all games could use the save anywhere feature. And this would go a long way to customizing difficulty so it is accessible to all gamers. Freesaving is part of the joy of playing emulated games and most computer games.

[help1]

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