Xbox Live Arcade Size Limits Limiting Games?

[InuFaye]

Old?



While interviewing Capcom Producer Ben Judd for our Bionic Commando: Rearmed (http://www.1up.com/do/gameOverview?cId=3165466) preview today, we learned that not all versions of this hearty downloadable remake of the NES classic are being created equal. When the game hits this spring, the PlayStation Network version (as well as the PC incarnation) will have higher-res textures than the Xbox Live Arcade version. Blame Live Arcade's 150MB limit on file sizes, Judd explained. "That's surprising to hear," says John Schappert, Microsoft's corporate VP of Xbox Live, Software, and Services, when we asked him about Capcom's issues later in the day. "Last I checked it was Capcom that had an exception to our file size with Street Fighter II [Hyper Fighting].... We raised our limit to 150 megs, which seems pretty darn great.... I don't think it has limited our games in any way. Look at Rez HD. Look at Poker Smash. Look at Undertow. These are very, very, very good games."
Microsoft doesn't have any plans to raise the limit, which Aaron Greenberg, group marketing manager for Xbox Live, sees as something tied into the whole Live Arcade mission statement. "We still want Arcade to stand more for quick pick-up-and-play games that are easy to download," he says. "They're still uniquely different than the retail games. We have to draw a line in the sand somewhere."
Both Schappert and Greenberg say they'd be surprised if Capcom's upcoming downloadable Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix (http://www.1up.com/do/gameOverview?cId=3158723) also suffers from textures that aren't as sharp as those in the PS3 version. "We have 10 million members," says Schappert. "Where would you want your best games to appear?" Greenberg adds, "Street Fighter II [Hyper Fighting] is the number one-selling game in the history of Xbox Live Arcade. That's where the fans are."
Meanwhile, Schappert says he and his team are on call if Capcom can't get Bionic Commando: Rearmed's high-res textures to fit under the 150MB limit. "There are 800 different factors [besides memory issues] that factor into development," he says. "There's also prowess of programmers. It's never cut and dry.... If we need to help them program their stuff, we have people on [XNA General Manager] Chris Satchell's team that fly around and help our dev teams out when they need it.... I'm kind of new, but [Capcom] knows someone's number at Xbox Live. I'm certainly willing to help them out."


They need to cut the Size Limit.
I was gonna get this on XBLA, but now I dunno.

[Mr Unoriginal]

The reasoning is simple. Microsoft stupidly released a SKU for the 360 that did not include a HD. Now XBLA size must be limited for the few that only have a memory card.

[shipwreck]

If one of the XNA Creators Club games (TriLinea) is allowed to break the 150MB limit, coming in at 192MB, I'm sure we can up the limit for something like this Microsoft. It's an artificial barrier, just let it go.

[mogamer]

The XNA Creator's Club does say you need to have a hard drive to enable it. The XBLA games are still intended to be able to fit on a memory card. Even though there is a class distinction between consoles with and without a HDD, MS (for marketing reasons) doesn't want to admit to it.

[terribledeli]

It'll change for high profile games.

Instead of "This game requires 512 MB memory card to download"

It'll now say "This game requires HDD to download"

They'll have egg on their faces if we've got to download texture pack 1 and sound pack 1 when the game is released.

[The Mana Knight]

Does not surprise me on bit. I remember Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD having the same issue too:
Could cramming 1080p graphics and remixed soundtrack within XBLA file limit lead to differences between XBLA and PSN versions?

The man behind Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo: HD Remix has admitted that the XBLA game-size limit imposed by Microsoft is causing development problems, sparking concern that there may be differences between the XBLA and PSN versions of the game when it is finally released.

Capcom is currently working on a HD Remix version of Super Street Fighter 2, to be released on XBLA and PSN at some point this year. Changes include a remixed soundtrack, character rebalancing and completely redrawn 1080p graphics. The game will also come bundled with the classic version of SSF2T for die-hard fans.

Speaking exclusively to VideoGamer.com, SSF2T:HD Remix director David Sirlin revealed that developer Backbone is struggling to fit the new HD graphics into the 150MB Xbox LIVE download limit and admitted that including remixed music as well as the original music is proving "difficult or impossible".

When asked whether the 360 download limit was causing any problems, Sirlin said: "Yes, it's difficult to store so many 1080p graphics in such a small download size. A lot depends on the specific shading that the final art will have, and how well that shading compresses. It also makes it difficult or impossible to include all the original game's music AND all remixed set of music. We're still doing our best to fit within the limit we've been given."

Xbox 360 owners are sure to find Sirlin's comments worrying. It remains unclear whether there will be any telling differences between the two versions when the game is finally released. Tellingly, Sirlin did not mention any issues with PSN.

In the same interview, Sirlin also detailed major misgivings with the d-pad of both the Xbox 360 and the PlayStation controllers, citing both as influencing factors behind the decision to make some special moves in SSF2T:HD Remix more forgiving.

Sirlin said: "In my opinion, one of the worst ideas inflicted on the Shoryukening gaming public was Sony's idea to turn the d-pad into four buttons with no diagonal piece. I hated it on the PlayStation. I hated it on the PlayStation 2. I hate it on the PlayStation 3. Microsoft's d-pad has a much better shape (including the diagonals) and yet somehow, it isn't any better in practice. There's something amiss about the mechanism underneath the Xbox 360's d-pad that makes it mysteriously imprecise. My final tally is that both d-pads tie for badness.

"This is at least part of the reason why some special moves are more forgiving in SSF2T:HD Remix. You should have an easier time using a d-pad in this game than in other Street Fighters such as SF2: Hyper Fighting, but if you really want to be a pro, my best advice is to get an arcade-style stick. I've been using the Hori DOA and VF5 Xbox 360 sticks throughout the development of the game."

Be sure to check out the rest of VideoGamer.com's exclusive interview with David Sirlin, where he reveals the secrets behind SSF2T:HD Remix rebalancing and why he isn't "dumbing down" everyone's favourite fighting game.

Are you worried Microsoft's XBLA game size limit will have an adverse affect on Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo: HD Remix? Tell us in the comments section below.
http://www.videogamer.com/news/30-01-2008-7377.html

Yeah, the size limit is stupid because of that darn Arcade/Core. I'm just glad the PSN version isn't being gimped.

[benjamouth]

As has been said MS need to dump this limit, and I'm starting to think they really need to dump the Arcade SKU and stop gimping the entire system for the 5 people who don't have an HDD.

Then again I don't want games with compulsory 5 gig installs either, but the 360 isn't in that strong a position that it can afford crap like this. The PS3 is looking stronger all the time and MS need to wake up and smell the coffee.

[mykevermin]

The PSN doesn't have limitations because they don't have shit for games, so there's room for all of them.

[pimpinc333]

The should just remove the limit for XBLA.

[The Mana Knight]

The PSN doesn't have limitations because they don't have shit for games, so there's room for all of them.PSN doesn't have a size limit because EVERY PS3 has a HDD. The only problem is Sony doesn't have third parties (outside of Capcom, one Namco Bandai game, and Sony Online Entertainment) supporting PSN right now (although it's rumored Square Enix will be supporting PSN).

Then again I don't want games with compulsory 5 gig installs either, but the 360 isn't in that strong a position that it can afford crap like this. The PS3 is looking stronger all the time and MS need to wake up and smell the coffee.But for those who own a PS3, we can use any SATA laptop HDD. So basically, I could get a 250GB and 320GB and wouldn't have to worry about a large install.

[GuilewasNK]

The reasoning is simple. Microsoft stupidly released a SKU for the 360 that did not include a HD. Now XBLA size must be limited for the few that only have a memory card.


No doubt.

I wonder who was the fucking moron that greenlit that to start with?


Microsoft doesn't have any plans to raise the limit, which Aaron Greenberg, group marketing manager for Xbox Live, sees as something tied into the whole Live Arcade mission statement. "We still want Arcade to stand more for quick pick-up-and-play games that are easy to download," he says. "They're still uniquely different than the retail games. We have to draw a line in the sand somewhere."

That right there is a bigger load of bullshit that you'll find at a Texas rodeo. File size has absolutely nothing to do with games being pick-up-and-play.

[mykevermin]

...like I said, they don't have shit for games.

[wubb]

""There are 800 different factors [besides memory issues] that factor into development," he says. "There's also prowess of programmers. It's never cut and dry.... If we need to help them program their stuff, we have people on [XNA General Manager] Chris Satchell's team that fly around and help our dev teams out when they need it...."

What a dick.

[InuFaye]

...like I said, they don't have shit for games.

Lies.

[Maklershed]

Maybe its a bad thing and I dont know it becuase so far there have been a ton of great xbla games. Lots of variety and addictive gameplay in many of them. Or just pure nostalgia in others. It was slow at first but I think Microsoft has really been delivering on the xbla front. And as long as I get Bionic Commando, I'm not too concerned that the graphics wont be 100% as good as on the ps3. I'll still probably get it on the 360 due to the achievements and ability to stay hooked in to my friends list while I play.

[dallow]

Gripshift apparently was better due to the larger size.
Remove the cap already.

The news is good to me in the sense that they're not gimping the PSN/PC versions.
Hopefully that means SFIITurbo HD won't be gimped either.

[benjamouth]

But for those who own a PS3, we can use any SATA laptop HDD. So basically, I could get a 250GB and 320GB and wouldn't have to worry about a large install.

Yes but for me it's not really an issue of HDD size, it's one of convenience. I don't want to have to install a game every time I want to play it, yes I realise you can just leave it on there but I have about 90 360 games alone, thats a memory management headache I just don't want.

I just think it's a dark path to start down, I don't want my console to end up as a pseudo-PC, thats just my opinion though.

But certainly making the PS3's HDD easy and cheap to upgrade is a big feather in it's cap. The 360 HDD prices are a bit mental.

[SL4IN]

This is really annoying and frustrating at the same time. Because of this size limit cap, 360 owners are gimped from getting bigger size releases, either by not getting whatever extra features got added, or an extra amount of those shitty MS points you have to pay to download some other content.

This is really similar to the Burnout Paradise online requiring you to have a hard drive on the 360 version. People don't need to be mad at the game dev, they need to be mad at MS. If that Arcade/Core version never would have come out, we probably wouldn't be experiencing the problems we are now with size limits and capacity.

[KingBroly]

The issues are coming up once again. I expect another cap increase here. Or, at least a soft increase where you can go to 200mb depending on the case.

[SpazX]

What's with the 150mb limit anyway? They have 64mb and 512mb cards (that's it right?), so they're already keeping anybody with a 64mb unit from getting those games, why should they limit it so that you can get 3 on a 512mb card or something? If they want a limit they might as well just make it so that the limit is 500mb or whatever the biggest would be that could actually fit on a 512mb card.

[BustaUppa]

That right there is a bigger load of bullshit that you'll find at a Texas rodeo. File size has absolutely nothing to do with games being pick-up-and-play.Bullshit indeed! CastleVania SOTN is not "pick-up-and-play" in the slightest (and this game was supposedly why they increased the original limit in the first place). Neither is a long-ass board game like Catan.

It's retarded. Non-HDD users can't download about about 95% of the demos for retail games anyway. Or Xbox Originals. Or marketplace movies. Or what appears to be the majority of XNA titles so far. So MS arbitrarily decides to give a fuck about file size for XBLA??? Poppycock!

[GuilewasNK]

Bullshit indeed! CastleVania SOTN is not "pick-up-and-play" in the slightest (and this game was supposedly why they increased the original limit in the first place). Neither is a long-ass board game like Catan.

It's retarded. Non-HDD users can't download about about 95% of the demos for retail games anyway. Or Xbox Originals. Or marketplace movies. Or what appears to be the majority of XNA titles so far. So MS arbitrarily decides to give a fuck about file size for XBLA??? Poppycock!

:applause:

Truth.

[mykevermin]

What's with the 150mb limit anyway? They have 64mb and 512mb cards (that's it right?), so they're already keeping anybody with a 64mb unit from getting those games, why should they limit it so that you can get 3 on a 512mb card or something? If they want a limit they might as well just make it so that the limit is 500mb or whatever the biggest would be that could actually fit on a 512mb card.

My pure opinion is that 150MB was an arbitrary limit they put, assuming that the remainder of the 512MB card will be used for game saves and perhaps other DLC.

[SpazX]

My pure opinion is that 150MB was an arbitrary limit they put, assuming that the remainder of the 512MB card will be used for game saves and perhaps other DLC.

Even with that I'd think they could at least raise the limit to 250 or 300. They should come out with a 1gb card anyway, discontinue the 64mb ones and drop the 512mb ones to $25 and release a 1gb for $50. They must be making tons on a $50 512mb card.

[mkg12]

Even with that I'd think they could at least raise the limit to 250 or 300. They should come out with a 1gb card anyway, discontinue the 64mb ones and drop the 512mb ones to $25 and release a 1gb for $50. They must be making tons on a $50 512mb card.
Seriously, the PS2 memory cards are even more ridiculous. $25 for an 8MB memory card? Have they even dropped the prices since the release of the PS3? I guess why would they when the PS2 is still selling good.

[dallow]

Yeah, both Sony and MS are making killings off the mem cards.

Just like Texas Instruments and their TI-83/84/89.
Ancient tech and still $90.

[Thomas96]

The PSN doesn't have limitations because they don't have shit for games, so there's room for all of them.

don't mind me... just taking snapshot of fanboyism...

why are you hating on PSN so much...

[argyle]

The PSN doesn't have limitations because they don't have shit for games, so there's room for all of them.

You must be doing it wrong. I've gotten FAR more enjoyment out of PSN games than I have XBLA games. Heck, Super Stardust alone is better than anything I've played on XBLA.

[mykevermin]

don't mind me... just taking snapshot of fanboyism...

why are you hating on PSN so much...

Not the PSN, the PSN store. Let me put it to you this way: in three months, the 360 has released 11 "Xbox Originals." In 16 months, the PSN Store has released 21 PSX titles. The number of demos available are staggeringly different, heavily balanced in favor of the 360; the same can be said of XBLA titles versus PSN. In terms of content, there is no single dimension that the 360 hasn't completely outclassed the PSN in.

Will the PS3 ever get the three exclusive Rock Band tracks that the OXM had?

And let's not get ahead of ourselves: this content is available to any 360 or PS3 user; I'm not complaining about online gameplay, as that's a different issue entirely, and more or less where the paid aspect of XBL comes into play.

To tie this into the actual topic at hand, it remains to be seen if there will be substantial differences b/w the 360 and PSN versions of SSF2THD, or if the texture differences b/w versions of Bionic Commando will be overstated when compared to how good they actually look. The PSN has the advantage there, but it's an advantage that isn't being taken advantage of.

There are two examples, of the top of my head, where the differences are noticable: Tekken and Warhawk - but the latter is available on a disc, making that somewhat moot, no?

Also, as far as PSN is concerned, the only thing I don't regret paying for is Rock Band DLC and Everyday Shooter (which is awesome awesome awesome).

And a great big LOL to you accusing me of being a 360 fanboy. I don't think you'll find many folks who would agree with that sentiment.

[dallow]

Such an Xbot myke. Sheesh!
Go play your HD DUDs!

[The Mana Knight]

You must be doing it wrong. I've gotten FAR more enjoyment out of PSN games than I have XBLA games. Heck, Super Stardust alone is better than anything I've played on XBLA.Agreed. I feel the same way, but I'd add Tekken 5: DR Online, High Velocity Bowlling, etc. to the mix.

[Thomas96]

MS isn't going to change that arbitray number for download size and its for this reason... MS knows that most 360 owners have only a 20gb hard drive; by keeping the downloads low, they know that people will have space for at least x amount of games on each hard drive. The smaller the game, the more games the consumer can buy via XBL. The bigger the game the less potential revenue you stand to make. Its a marketplace... its all about sales..