Removing BC a mistake? BC model PS3's price skyrocketing in Japan

[Maklershed]

Story from ps3fanboy.com (via Joystiq):

http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2008/03/03/20gb-and-60gb-models-skyrocket-in-price-in-japan/

How important is PS2 backwards compatibility to you? For many Japanese consumers, the ability to play last generation's games is a must-have feature on the system. So much so, that the discontinued 20GB and 60GB models are skyrocketing in value in the buyback market. Currently, Japan only has access to one system: the 40GB, and that is without any kind of backwards compatibility.

Amazon Japan is currently selling 20GB systems for ￥63,800 ($617), almost twice the current asking price of the the 40GB system. The 60GB model, which includes additional features, like wi-fi and memory card readers, currently sells for ￥74,800 ($723). Hobby shops are the worst offenders, according to this blog (NSFW ads).

In America, the backwards compatibility situation is less dire. 80GB models are readily available, and although they offer less-than-perfect support for PS2 games, it's certainly far better than the 40GB model's inability to play any PS2 titles. The upcoming Metal Gear Solid 4 bundle, for example, includes backwards compatibility with PS2 titles. However, one quick look at Amazon US shows that demand for the 60GB model, which is the most compatible with PS2 software, has done a good job of making it a valuable commodity.

[GizmoGC]

Nice! Can't wait to sell my 60GB one in the coming months.

[YoshiFan1]

I'd buy a 40GB and a PS2 before I paid over retail for a PS3 with BC (especially because I can't play certain games that require a PS1/PS2 special controller that won't work on PS3). I'm surprised Amazon is selling systems for over retail. If they did that in the US, people would be very angry (even though they can sell it for whatever they want)

[Vinny]

I'm glad my brother got the 60GB... the upscaling BC is one of the biggest reasons why the PS3 won me over.

I wish Sony would keep a model around with BC... just in case this one dies.

[xycury]

This would be one of two possible points I would consider paying for a ps3.....

I've never owned any ps1-2... so no games here, but if I were to get a ps3, I would want to play previous generation copies... I crush on RPGers and playstation has way too many to turn away.

But at that price and removing BC.... I'll just have to say goodbye.

The other reason is for Bluray...

I might as well find a used ps2 and forget the ps3.

I say this is a really bad step for sony.....

that's why I like my wii so much, that the wife's gamecube library doesn't disappear, the nephews and now some gamecube rpg games can be still available on the wii.

[doubledown]

Wow, I would LOVE to sell my 60GB for a premium in the upcoming months. I have zero PS2 games, and no desire to get any at this point.

[Ryukahn]

I can't believe they don't at least have the 80 GB model there. I wonder why that is.

[GizmoGC]

I only use mine as a Blu-ray player, so if I can get $500+ for it I'll be happy.

[jman619]

I'm glad my brother got the 60GB... the upscaling BC is one of the biggest reasons why the PS3 won me over.

I wish Sony would keep a model around with BC... just in case this one dies.

Yep I feel the same way I always wonder what if it died. Would I actually get a another 60 gig one or be stuck with a different one. It would make me mad if mine died, and I got a 40 gig or 80 gig. I love the bc to much :D

[NamPaehc]

I don't think you'll be able to sell a 60GB for that much more in the US. Like it says, we have the 80GB here.

And I might be willing to wager the PS2 will price get a drop by the end of this year.

[jkam]

Doesn't the 40gb non BC play PS1 games? I would think Sony would be best off by coming up with a software solution for PS2 stuff at this point. It would reduce the hardware costs and give them BC back which might be swaying some peoples decisions. I don't have a PS3 yet but I have to say Microsoft did a pretty good job with their BC. It's scary that some XBOX games look better on my new HDTV than Wii games since they get upscaled and are in widescreen. Sony may have been better off sticking with the 60gb and the new 40gb so perfect PS2 play is there for those who want it.

[geko29]

Doesn't the 40gb non BC play PS1 games?

Yes it does. My mom plays Tetris Plus on her 40GB all the time.

[The Mana Knight]

I said it before that BC is the biggest in Japan out of every other country (since you can find old games dating back to the Famicom brand new there). That was why I stated a few times why PS3 sales have really dropped off in Japan, because the 20GB/60GB was going away. Also, that explains why there are usually more games sold each week than PS3 consoles (compared to before when more PS3 consoles were selling than games, since some may have bought a 20GB/60GB for some PS2 games or something).

But I cannot complain at Sony for taking it out, because the price to manufacturer the 20GB/60GB was quite high and there's no way Sony could take a bigger loss (by just keep lowering the price, when they already lost the most money by far in Japan, possibly over $300).

In reality, it's technically not possible to make a PS3 with 100% hardware BC for $500 or less), and the lowest they would ever be able to make it for is $400 (that's after cell becoming 45nm and RSX becoming 65nm).

This post shows it all:
http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4012701&postcount=1149

But let's just say Sony had two choices:
-Sell at a very high price with PS2 BC
-Sell at a much more reasonable price without PS2 BC

The main complaint was price, so that's what Sony did. The majority who do not own a PS3 will assume PS2 BC is very important, yet the majority won't even bother using it shortly after (especially if you have an HDTV. And forget about getting most PS2 accessories to work on the PS3, because most don't, like the Guitar for Guitar Hero and Taiko Drum, regardless of adapter).

If people didn't complain so much about price in the first place, PS2 BC would still be around right now. Blu-ray is NOT the reason PS3 is expensive (A blu-ray diode costs $8. It's expensive due to the price of the Cell, RSX, and previously PS2 hardware components).

I will say this, the 40GB PS3 will have near full PS2 BC one day. You can quote me on that one. Once the 100% software emulator for PS2 games is finished and the PS2 starts dying off more, we will see PS2 BC on the 40GB via firmware update (SCEI is looking for people to emulate PS1, PS2, PS3, and PSP games right now according to a job opening).

[trq]

Makes sense. I think only that biggest of fanbois would suggest the PS3 library is on the caliber of the PS2 library at the moment, so buying a fully BC PS3 to enjoy all the oldies-but-goodies until the bigger titles roll along is the sound buying decision in my opinion. I'm still sitting here playing King of Fighters XI and Odin Sphere and the first Disgaea on my PS2, which is sitting next to my 360 and Wii, and until I can replace my slowly dying PS2 without losing the ability to play a big chunk of my back catalog (and at a reasonable price), I ain't buying the Pee Ess Triple. It's really that simple, and it's unfortunate that this is the situation, because as far as I see it, I'm exactly the consumer Sony wants back -- I'm not a True Believer, who'll buy the system on branding alone, but I did own a PS1 and 2.

But I cannot complain at Sony for taking it out, because the price to manufacturer the 20GB/60GB was quite high and there's no way Sony could take a bigger loss (by just keep lowering the price, when they already lost the most money by far in Japan, possibly over $300).

In reality, it's technically not possible to make a PS3 with 100% hardware BC for $500 or less), and the lowest they would ever be able to make it for is $400 (that's after cell becoming 45nm and RSX becoming 65nm).

That's not entirely true. I take your point about "100% hardware BC," but let's not forget:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6181373.html?sid=6181373&page=1

"Tretton told the paper [the Wall Street Journal] that taking support for PS2 games out of the new system isn't dramatically cutting manufacturing costs. However, by omitting the option of playing PS2 games, Sony hopes that new customers will instead spend their money on more PS3 games."

It really has little to do with cost and more with trying to sell more PS3 software.

[erehwon]

I think it was a mistake. I have bought the PS2 because of BC since I'd never had a ps1. I was hoping they would continue this fully with the ps3 since I felt it was one thing it had over the 360 and it's software BC.

I do have a ps2, but I'm planning on purchasing a 20 or 60 gig PS3 off of ebay. I'm wanting to control the amount systems I have out at any one time. I got a ps2, GC, snes, and 2 xboxes (one's modded for XBMC) in my media center. I also like having the new consoles play the old games just in case the old consoles break. Neither of my ps1's work.

I just fell let down by the company for removing a key feature like that. I just wonder if they got some hint of what Microsoft was planning with live and xbox 1 games and wanted to do the same? There are other things they could have cut to reduce costs, like built in wifi and card readers.

[hiccupleftovers]

I hardly play the system and was expecting just this to happen. If I can sell my 60, then I'm going to reap the profits. I've been saying for awhile that the market, which is just now getting into PS3s, will explode and the price for BC PS3 will be huge.

[DesertEagleXIX]

I don't understand this a 40GB+PS2 Slim=$500 dollars. Why would anyone pay much more than that a save a bit of space?

[dfo]

All depends on how much of a cheap ass you are. For those of us with limited space (or living with people that don't want a thousand different consoles, wires, controllers, etc.) draped all over the god damned living room, having one box that will "do it all" is definitely worth something.

If you're a high school student living at home in your parents' basement (i.e. you absolutely put saving a few bucks above any aesthetic concerns) then it's a no-brainer, but for the rest of us ...

I don't understand this a 40GB+PS2 Slim=$500 dollars. Why would anyone pay much more than that a save a bit of space?

[Ryukahn]

I don't understand this a 40GB+PS2 Slim=$500 dollars. Why would anyone pay much more than that a save a bit of space?

The same reason people buy flat panel TVs or smaller iPods or tools that do several things in one or get food at fast food places or get fold away tables, and the list could go on and on. Less Space and/or Convenience is a valuable thing. I don't get why there are folk that don't understand this concept heh.

[Nogib]

I will say this, the 40GB PS3 will have near full PS2 BC one day. You can quote me on that one. Once the 100% software emulator for PS2 games is finished and the PS2 starts dying off more, we will see PS2 BC on the 40GB via firmware update (SCEI is looking for people to emulate PS1, PS2, PS3, and PSP games right now according to a job opening).

STILL beating that dead horse eh?

Better not be holding your breath. I still say it ain't happening. Just because they were looking for people with software emulation expertise last March doesn't mean that anything was ever going to come as a result. Software emulation is not the end-all be-all thing you still seem to think it is. It very likely may not be feasible to emulate the GS with the PS3's architecture. If it was, Sony would have done it by now.

Software emulated PS2 games on 40GB PS3: DON'T COUNT ON IT. Unless Sony ever states otherwise, your hope and rampant speculation isn't helping anyone. Anyone buying a 40GB PS3 should simply assume that it'll never play PS2 games from the beginning. If by some miracle (and I can't stress that enough) Sony manages to get PS2 software emulation working on the PS3, which I for one don't see happening, then those users can rejoice in an unexpected bonus.

I'm just saying, stop getting people's hopes up.

[Zoglog]

It's not a matter of BC being important. It's the matter of it being discontinued and still valuable to certain people who waited this long to buy a PS3.

BC is still overrated

[SL4IN]

It's not a matter of BC being important. It's the matter of it being discontinued and still valuable to certain people who waited this long to buy a PS3.

BC is still overrated

That may be true, but look back at when the PS2 came out, what was the main selling point? "OMG you can play all your ps1 games on it!!!" That, and the fact that it played DVD's.

The point is, is that sony pushed, and pushed, and PUSHED that "hey, you can ditch your ps1 and buy this ps2 because it'll play all those games right out of the box." And I believe there's more to the story for taking BC out other than "it'll cut costs." Wasn't there some debacle with the whole emotion chip and the company that made it? Wasn't it turning into another royalty battle like what happened with sony and immersion?

[NamPaehc]

That may be true, but look back at when the PS2 came out, what was the main selling point? "OMG you can play all your ps1 games on it!!!" That, and the fact that it played DVD's.

The point is, is that sony pushed, and pushed, and PUSHED that "hey, you can ditch your ps1 and buy this ps2 because it'll play all those games right out of the box." And I believe there's more to the story for taking BC out other than "it'll cut costs." Wasn't there some debacle with the whole emotion chip and the company that made it? Wasn't it turning into another royalty battle like what happened with sony and immersion?

You are right, Sony really helped bring BC along. I mean, if you wanted to pop in your old NES games... you couldn't put it in a SNES or your SNES games into a 64 and so on. Being able to play my older PS1 games on my PS2 was great, and the idea of being to play pretty much everything in the PS line was/is very appealing to me.

[Halo05]

Hmmm... I might have to see if that certain local place still has that brand new 60 gb sitting there.

[DesertEagleXIX]

The same reason people buy flat panel TVs or smaller iPods or tools that do several things in one or get food at fast food places or get fold away tables, and the list could go on and on. Less Space and/or Convenience is a valuable thing. I don't get why there are folk that don't understand this concept heh.


Don't mean to be an ass, but I think your analogy=fail. People get fast food for two reasons: 1) Convience and 2) Price. I'm making an argument for price, you for space/convience. Sure, a few years ago those TV set with built in DVD players were convienent, but I never bought one. Why? If the TV OR DVD player failed, the whole system needed repair. So, space isn't always an issue.

As far as understanding concepts; there is one important one- People have different values; we don't all think alike. Some people value cost, which others space. Since this is CHEAPassgamer, I can safely assume many people here value cost. Maybe that's why people can't wrap their heads around, 'this issue.'

[The Mana Knight]

"Tretton told the paper [the Wall Street Journal] that taking support for PS2 games out of the new system isn't dramatically cutting manufacturing costs. However, by omitting the option of playing PS2 games, Sony hopes that new customers will instead spend their money on more PS3 games."

It really has little to do with cost and more with trying to sell more PS3 software.Tretton is incorrect because he wasn't even in charge of doing this. When you look at one PS3 console, the cost may not be so significant, but when you add up ALL the costs when you manufacturer 1 million PS3 consoles, that's when it becomes expensive.

The issue is the 20GB model sold at a $300 loss while the 60GB model sold at a $240 loss at launch. There's no denying blu-ray disc diode price dropping now and other components dropping as they were mass produced, it would have still put Sony at a dis-advantage because:

-If they continued lowering the price, they'd continue to take masses loses and could really hurt their company. One reason why their Q3 and before loses in 2007 were significant in the PlayStation section. Sony isn't in video gaming to take significant loses for years like MS (they may do it temporarily). The only way for them to recover is if people were buying PS3 software and accessories in large amounts, but people were barely buying them.

-If they just left the price at what it was until manufacturing costs got lower (my estimate is that a 60GB would now cost exactly $600 to make), they would lose more ground to the competition and continue to have a harder time getting to the mass market (but the PlayStation division wouldn't have many problems with loses). A big reason why as to the Xbox 360 is cheaper isn't just because of it lacking WiFi and blu-ray, it's because it doesn't contain a single original Xbox component to handle its BC. Now the 360 did near launch, I could almost guarantee it would be $500, and would probably hover around $400-$450 right now for the Premium.

The 40GB greatly reduces the number of components (especially since there is no hardware BC), which allows for cheaper/lower wattage components due to less current, less solder needed, smaller PCB, etc. for $400 (That is said to be the cost of making a 40GB). Now even if Sony were to sell the 40GB at $300, there loss would be no more significant than with any other SKU, and would be directly at a more mass market friendly price (and the 40GB PS3 can just everything any other PS3 can do when it comes to playing PS3 games).

STILL beating that dead horse eh?

Better not be holding your breath. I still say it ain't happening. Just because they were looking for people with software emulation expertise last March doesn't mean that anything was ever going to come as a result. Software emulation is not the end-all be-all thing you still seem to think it is. It very likely may not be feasible to emulate the GS with the PS3's architecture. If it was, Sony would have done it by now.

Software emulated PS2 games on 40GB PS3: DON'T COUNT ON IT. Unless Sony ever states otherwise, your hope and rampant speculation isn't helping anyone. Anyone buying a 40GB PS3 should simply assume that it'll never play PS2 games from the beginning. If by some miracle (and I can't stress that enough) Sony manages to get PS2 software emulation working on the PS3, which I for one don't see happening, then those users can rejoice in an unexpected bonus.

I'm just saying, stop getting people's hopes up.I'm not changing my explanation, it WILL come one day. The original PS2 model was 50% software and 50% hardware for its PS1 BC. Sony was planning on doing the same thing with PS3 initially, but made the BC hardware at the beginning because the EE emulator wasn't ready (I have a friend in Europe who was a BC tester with the software EE in Liverpool). The slim PS2 model was 100% software for PS1 games. One reason the slim PS2 came after 4 years was because that's when the 100% software emulation was finished. That was Sony's plan all along with the PS3 too, but like I said, it will probably not come until the PS2 is near dead (so they can make sure every game works the PS3). If emulation wasn't so important to Sony, then why are the looking at people for doing it for all their platforms? If they didn't care one bit about having BC, the 40GB wouldn't even have PS1 BC, yet it does (because it's 100% software and costs $0.00 to use). When they get an emulator up and running, they most definitely will, but oh course they are going to deny it for now because there are plenty of PS2 consoles available (to an extent, if you just want to play PS2 games, they rather have you buy a PS3 because they make a small profit off of it instead of a loss on a PS3 with PS2 BC).

It certainly is possible to emulate the GS, because there ARE some PS2 emulators for the PC I hear, but they require very powerful PCs and still doesn't work with everything (actually, more like 20% or less I believe). Emulating the GS though is NOT technically easy and will take a lot of time. If it was easy, yes we'd have it by now, but at the same time, you better bet they are still working on it.

We have been informed that a job listing has been recently added to the Sony Computer Entertainment International careers website. The listing calls for a "PlayStation 3 compatibility feature engineer" with a job role that would require the applicant to "implement and improve an emulator on the PlayStation 3 and next gen systems. Target systems:PS1, PS2, PS3, PSP".

It is our responsibility to point out that this could simply be a Research & Development position for internal testing or for improving compatibility in older PS3s, to improve the number of titles which work with emulated backwards compatibility. With those more sensible ideas out of the way, we can move onto the fun speculation. The juiciest possibility being full backwards compatibility on 40GB PS3s. Not only that, but the inclusion of the PSP in the list of systems lends us to suspect that PSP emulation on the PS3 could be a possibility at some point.

We don't want to get your hopes up and even if our wild speculation is correct, we won't be seeing any of this stuff for a while. There's no telling how long until someone gets the job. The SCEI careers page is still listing a position for a Gran Turismo developer and, until recently, a game engine designer for Afrika. No wonder Sony takes so long to do anything!http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2008/01/17/curious-job-listing-found-on-the-scei-website/

[Ryukahn]

Don't mean to be an ass, but I think your analogy=fail. People get fast food for two reasons: 1) Convience and 2) Price. I'm making an argument for price, you for space/convience. Sure, a few years ago those TV set with built in DVD players were convienent, but I never bought one. Why? If the TV OR DVD player failed, the whole system needed repair. So, space isn't always an issue.

Where do you get that fast food is cheap lol. I guess compared to fancy ass restaurants that charge ridiculous amounts of money for little food then sure. I can make food at home for much cheaper than fast food. Fast Food is all about convenience, so my analogy fits just fine.

As far as understanding concepts; there is one important one- People have different values; we don't all think alike. Some people value cost, which others space. Since this is CHEAPassgamer, I can safely assume many people here value cost.Maybe that's why people can't wrap their heads around, 'this issue.'

Wrapping their heads around an issue and being for a particular issue are two different things. I can see both sides of the coin, though I prefer a particular side. You are the one that brought up that you don't understand why people pay for convenience, which is why I said what I said.

[rsigley]

In reality, it's technically not possible to make a PS3 with 100% hardware BC for $500 or less), and the lowest they would ever be able to make it for is $400 (that's after cell becoming 45nm and RSX becoming 65nm).

i've read this sentence about 10 times and i still don't understand it

how is it not possible to make it for $500 or less, but the lowest they can make it for is $400

[dragonsho]

I think he's saying the cheapest for FULL COMPLETE 100% backwards compatibility is $500 and just software backwards compatibility for $400? I think that's it, not sure though.

[Sarang01]

Here's the problem Mana, Bemani and other products may RUN on the PS3 but the special accessories work so there will always be games you have to have a PS2 for to run properly.
If Sony was SMART they'd figure out a way to FIX this.
Is there any benefit to using the upscaling of PS2 games through the PS3 and bc as opposed to running a PS2 through an Onkyo 875 to upscale it instead?

[Zoglog]

Here's the problem Mana, Bemani and other products may RUN on the PS3 but the special accessories work so there will always be games you have to have a PS2 for to run properly.
If Sony was SMART they'd figure out a way to FIX this.
Is there any benefit to using the upscaling of PS2 games through the PS3 and bc as opposed to running a PS2 through an Onkyo 875 to upscale it instead?


yeah, that's a particularly big concern in japan I bet.
Esp for people like me who bought a $400 Beatmania controller :)

I think the change may come if Konami releases further titles on PS3 (imagine all the songs it could hold).

[Sarang01]

yeah, that's a particularly big concern in japan I bet.
Esp for people like me who bought a $400 Beatmania controller :)

I think the change may come if Konami releases further titles on PS3 (imagine all the songs it could hold).

What about Keyboardmania though? Or does the PS3 work with past USB shit?

You know what amazes me? I looked at the Japanese songlist for the home version of "Supernova" and it looked pretty good. Can someone explain to me HOW the Japanese have better taste in Pop music, AMERICAN Pop music, then the average U.S. citizen?
One thing I gotta say. Since you're a music game fan play "Maestromusic 2". HARDEST music game I've ever played. It uses a baton controller and will wear your arm OUT!

[Zoglog]

What about Keyboardmania though? Or does the PS3 work with past USB shit?

You know what amazes me? I looked at the Japanese songlist for the home version of "Supernova" and it looked pretty good. Can someone explain to me HOW the Japanese have better taste in Pop music, AMERICAN Pop music, then the average U.S. citizen?
One thing I gotta say. Since you're a music game fan play "Maestromusic 2". HARDEST music game I've ever played. It uses a baton controller and will wear your arm OUT!

You know, I haven't tested my keyboardmania.
I don't think it'll work though, I believe even though the PS3 is region free for PS3 games, not for PS2 games. And I don't have a Japanese PS3 =/

But I have a feeling it might work, maybe I should try karaoke revolution or singstar.

[trq]

Tretton is incorrect because he wasn't even in charge of doing this. When you look at one PS3 console, the cost may not be so significant, but when you add up ALL the costs when you manufacturer 1 million PS3 consoles, that's when it becomes expensive.

Okay, you know I think you're cool beans these days, right? I say this because I also have to say you're on crack. You're going to tell me Tretton -- the freaking president and CEO of Sony Computer Entertainment of America -- speaking to the Wall Street Journal, just didn't know why they were making major hardware changes to his flagship product? I'll grant the guy talked out of his ass a lot, but c'mon, man. That's ludicrous.

[snakelda]

I probably would sell my PS3 60GB when I finish playing all the PS2 games I want to play.Then,I would buy the MGS 4 Bundle.

[Purkeynator]

[QUOTE=The Mana Knight;4032848] The original PS2 model was 50% software and 50% hardware for its PS1 BC.

I thought that the PS2 had a PSone on a chip that was also used for the sound chip for PSone games.

[willardhaven]

Just for the sake of discussion, do you guys think a future 100% BC model will be released at any price point?

I don't plan on getting one until at least another year or so, so time is not an issue.

[doubledown]

Just for the sake of discussion, do you guys think a future 100% BC model will be released at any price point?

I don't plan on getting one until at least another year or so, so time is not an issue.


No.

[Mechafenris]

It's all a matter of perception... the day the 360's core components were announced, we all knew BC was going to be problematic, limited, or downright not there. Those who argued that "just keep your XBox" were countered by those who complained about no space and the PS2 being PS1 compatible (not entirely so, but very close...) Indeed, when Sony announced full BC (or close to it) with the PS3, that was a "selling" point for fanboys of all stripes, and it was a point of contention in the oft-waged war among the consoles. (Let's not pretend the 100% BC for the Wii is anything special... it _is_ a souped up Gamecube...) Now, in order to combat the price difference, Sony's cut BC for the PS2. I am not much for BC myself, since I have enough shelf space for all the consoles... but I think if Sony bundled a PS2 inside the 40GB box and claimed "100%" BC, some people would still piss and moan.

The 360's mostly miss BC and the PS3's on and now off BC shouldn't be a deal-breaker for anyone looking to buy a console, and besides some of the scrooge's on CAG, I don't think it really is. A few trendy number sets over the lifespan of a console are more about the mood of the buyer than the customer rising up en masse and revolting at the very thought of Sony removing BC.

Sometimes it costs too much for gasoline or groceries one month... and a $400 console is _not_ higher than necessities, in spite of our collective addiction. ;)