The decline of Japanese Gaming

[dmaul1114]

Anyone read the various features in the latest EGM on the fall of Japanese gaming (they also talk about it's potential to rise again).

I'd have to agree with them. I used to be a huge fan of japanese games to the point of bashing western games--didn't play FPS, western RPGs etc. etc. But by the end of last gen I was sick of gaming and barely playing. Just felt like I was playing the same old shit over and over again. As John Davison put it--Japanese developers are stuck in 1998. And for Japanese games losing their market power, all you have to do is look at sales charts and see how dominated they are by western games--especially if you take out Nintendo who really hasn't lost any steam in selling their software.

Since getting a 360 last October after having gotten into games like Gears of War at my buddies, my interest in gaming has sharply returned. And it's been all western games--FPS, western RPGs etc. for the most part. So for me it's been a complete 180 in gaming tastes and interests. Though I can't say if it's because western developers are more innovative, or just because its new to me since I was stuck on Japanese games mainly in the past.

Anyway, I was curious what other thought and whether they had lost interest in Japanese games, or were still interested etc.

Some other interesting tidbits in the article are how Japanese devs are shifting from "hardcore" games to casual. Mentioned that after the poor sales of The World Ends With You in Japan that Square-Enix's president told stock holders they'd be focusing less on "hardcore" games in the future and more on casual fare. That stuff doesn't bode well for my interest in Japanese games returning as I hate casual games and non-games....if we're just getting that and the standard JRPGs, schmups, etc. Japanese game purchases will remain few and far between for me.

[leveskikesko]

Japanese games are still my favorite games. Sure, there may be truth to Japan not being the powerhouse it once was now, but the Japanese developers I like are still pumping out the titles I love.

My top three favorite games of the last 5 years are Japanese too:

Super Mario Galaxy
Shadow of the Colossus
Warioware

[Chacrana]

I partially agree. While yeah, the Japs haven't had anything innovative in a looooong time, they're still the ones making polished games. All too often, Western games have a great concept, but they don't get the core mechanics down, so the game ends up playing like shit. This is also known as the sandbox genre. Japanese games also still have far more interesting settings and premises that don't boil down to "crime," "war," or "generic future"... while obviously, nobody can defend JRPGs at this point, games like Ninja Gaiden or Devil May Cry not to mention stuff like Shadow of the Colossus just feel more unique.

So while yeah, Japanese games are definitely not the pinnacle of innovation or anywhere near it, my interest in the games is about the same as it's always been, which is very high. Though the West is catching up pretty quick, especially this gen.

[GuardianE]

It doesn't feel to me that Japan has declined. It's target market is just more apparent now with the influx of Western developers.

I can't think of a single Western title that's had as engaging of an RPG storyline as Persona 3 or as intricate a combat system as Ninja Gaiden/Devil May Cry.

Japan also tends to do survival horror very well, focusing more on psychological horror than dark room/sudden movements.

There are exceptions to this, of course. God of War is an incredible series. FEAR was a creepy game. But in the end, Western developers make excellent shooters and some very compelling DungeonsandDragons based RPGs, while Japan makes JRPGs (obviously, heh), fighting games, horror, and action games well.

Now, there are other genres that I haven't touched, like Sports, Platforming, or Racing, but I don't feel nearly as strongly about those. :P

[dmaul1114]

I partially agree. While yeah, the Japs haven't had anything innovative in a looooong time, they're still the ones making polished games. All too often, Western games have a great concept, but they don't get the core mechanics down, so the game ends up playing like shit.

Now see, this was where the western dev's interviewed said that Japanese devs have failed. They argue that this used to be the case (tight controls etc.) with the move to 3D gaming most Japanese developers haven't got it down, and there's too many games with shit controls, terrible cameras etc.

I'd have to agree, it seems to me that looking at hit games it's the japanese games like DMC, Ninja Gaiden etc. that are plagued by terrible camera's, overly complicated controls etc.

[dmaul1114]

I can't think of a single Western title that's had as engaging of an RPG storyline as Persona 3


Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic and Mass Effect have too of the best RPG story lines I've encountered. But I never liked JRPG story lines much. I've not played Persona, but I have a hard time imagining getting sucked into an anime-ish (I hate anime) story set around a bunch of high schoolers.

But of course, this is all a matter of opinion. With the poll I kind of expect that most people who were interested highly in japanese games probably still are--despite my change of heart and that of those in the EGM article.

[Chacrana]

Now see, this was where the western dev's interviewed said that Japanese devs have failed. They argue that this used to be the case (tight controls etc.) with the move to 3D gaming most Japanese developers haven't got it down, and there's too many games with shit controls, terrible cameras etc.

I'd have to agree, it seems to me that looking at hit games it's the japanese games like DMC, Ninja Gaiden etc. that are plagued by terrible camera's, overly complicated controls etc.

That's definitely a valid point, especially regarding DMC and NG, but those games have combat systems with a ton of depth, and since that's the entire focus of those games, they're still very successful at what they're trying to do, despite those flaws.. But when I talk about broken mechanics, I mean when you have say, a driving section in a game that feels floaty and unrealistic, or weapons that aren't fun to fire in a shooter. Even with the best controls, if the game design isn't there, the game's not worth playing.

I do wanna comment that this issue of EGM is pretty damn interesting, just because this is a legitimate topic that has some meaning.

[dmaul1114]

I do wanna comment that this issue of EGM is pretty damn interesting, just because this is a legitimate topic that has some meaning.

Agreed. This is the best issue they've put out in a LONG time.

[GuardianE]

I'd have to agree, it seems to me that looking at hit games it's the japanese games like DMC, Ninja Gaiden etc. that are plagued by terrible camera's, overly complicated controls etc.

I think the camera argument is a valid one, but at the same time the only action game that has trumped the cameras of DMC or Ninja Gaiden (first one, not the god awful camera for the second one) is God of War.

Most Western developers don't really try to do the stuff that Japanese developers do... and vice versa. It's like they're not really willing to step out into each others' territory because the other side does it so well. Like, I might get bashed for this, but even Too Human, as pretty anticipated game, feels clunky and rushed to me. There's a lack of fluidity in the combat structure... and to supplement it, they've added more RPG elements to it. So now it feels like a more combat oriented Champions of Norrath that doesn't take combat to the level that it really should.

In terms of the move to 3D, most larger Japanese developers don't really seem to have had too much of a problem making that transition. Capcom, Konami, Namco, Tecmo, Nintendo... they've all done great work in 3D and approach it wholeheartedly.

[Chacrana]

Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic and Mass Effect have too of the best RPG story lines I've encountered. But I never liked JRPG story lines much. I've not played Persona, but I have a hard time imagining getting sucked into an anime-ish (I hate anime) story set around a bunch of high schoolers.

But of course, this is all a matter of opinion. With the poll I kind of expect that most people who were interested highly in japanese games probably still are--despite my change of heart and that of those in the EGM article.

Bioware can definitely put together a damn good story, though I think where they falter is in the presentation of that story. It's usually just dialog in these games, whereas in a JRPG, it's a cinematic that has music designed to set the mood, dramatic camera angles, etc. And that sorta thing goes a long ways, and sometimes saves a hackneyed, banal plot.

[Chacrana]

Now that I think about it, there's an ideal solution:

US makes 3D games, Japan makes 2D games, Europe fucks off.

[GuardianE]

Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic and Mass Effect have too of the best RPG story lines I've encountered. But I never liked JRPG story lines much. I've not played Persona, but I have a hard time imagining getting sucked into an anime-ish (I hate anime) story set around a bunch of high schoolers.

But of course, this is all a matter of opinion. With the poll I kind of expect that most people who were interested highly in japanese games probably still are--despite my change of heart and that of those in the EGM article.

I'll definitely concede Mass Effect and KOTOR. There are always exceptions. Like, in the fighting genre, Def Jam: Fight for NY came out of nowhere as a capable fighting game. I'm just going majority wise.


Bioware can definitely put together a damn good story, though I think where they falter is in the presentation of that story. It's usually just dialog in these games, whereas in a JRPG, it's a cinematic that has music designed to set the mood, dramatic camera angles, etc. And that sorta thing goes a long ways, and sometimes saves a hackneyed, banal plot.

I very much agree.

[Chacrana]

Def Jam: Fight for NY came out of nowhere as a capable fighting game. I'm just going majority wise.

Oh no.... no no no.

[GuardianE]

Oh no.... no no no.

lol, I knew I would get flak for this one. Can you come up with a better example? At least it was fun, which is more than I can say for any other Western fighters out there. I would contend it is the best Western fighter out there.

[dmaul1114]

I think the camera argument is a valid one, but at the same time the only action game that has trumped the cameras of DMC or Ninja Gaiden (first one, not the god awful camera for the second one) is God of War.

Most Western developers don't really try to do the stuff that Japanese developers do... and vice versa. It's like they're not really willing to step out into each others' territory because the other side does it so well. Like, I might get bashed for this, but even Too Human, as pretty anticipated game, feels clunky and rushed to me. There's a lack of fluidity in the combat structure... and to supplement it, they've added more RPG elements to it. So now it feels like a more combat oriented Champions of Norrath that doesn't take combat to the level that it really should.

In terms of the move to 3D, most larger Japanese developers don't really seem to have had too much of a problem making that transition. Capcom, Konami, Namco, Tecmo, Nintendo... they've all done great work in 3D and approach it wholeheartedly.

Yeah, Too Humans combat is odd. though I will say on playign the demo a 2nd time I liked it a lot more. There is a bit more depth to it than their appears to be.

But it's not meant to be a DMC type game, it's much more in the Diablo mold--just witha little DMC sytle action mixed in.

As for 3D and japanese, there are good examples but there are also games like the Resident evil series, which had shit cameras and shit controls. I think you could also argue that the Camera in the ratchet games is better than in the 3D marios etc.

In the end, I don't think it's as bad as those western devs made it out to be in their interview, but I see where they are coming from.

And you're right that there's not a lot of overlap in what they do. I think western devs have seen that there's a lot bigger market for FPS, sandbox games, etc. than there is for turn-based, linear rpgs, intricate action games with complicated controls etc. etc. while Japanese developers are indeed stuck in 1998.

[leveskikesko]

Now that I think about it, there's an ideal solution:

US makes 3D games, Japan makes 2D games, Europe fucks off.

Uh what's so bad about Europe?

[deszaras]

I thought it was a very interesting EGM and got me thinking about how I feel regarding Japanese games. Outside of Nintendo games, I can think of very few Japanese games I care about. I love Western RPGs but deplore JRPGs. I think the interview of the guy making Bayonetta may reflect the stagnation of many Japanese games. He appeared to put to much emphasis on "sexiness," to the point I thought he was a 13 year old kid. Tits and ass can't keep a game afloat anymore like it's the nineties. I'm not saying the combat or anything else won't be good, I just think his obsession with sex might distract the quality of the game. That kind of mind-set reflects the lack of adaptation and innovation many Japanese games appear to suffer from.
Of course, this is just my opinion.

[Chacrana]

lol, I knew I would get flak for this one. Can you come up with a better example? At least it was fun, which is more than I can say for any other Western fighters out there. I would contend it is the best Western fighter out there.

There isn't one. Fighting games is a Japan-only thing.

[dmaul1114]

Bioware can definitely put together a damn good story, though I think where they falter is in the presentation of that story. It's usually just dialog in these games, whereas in a JRPG, it's a cinematic that has music designed to set the mood, dramatic camera angles, etc. And that sorta thing goes a long ways, and sometimes saves a hackneyed, banal plot.

Now see, I think the cinematics get boring and often cheesy. Part of the reason I lost interest in JRPGs.

What Bioware does best is doing it through dialog and giving you dialog options to help shape the story. That type of interaction is what makes me love their games. I don't have the attention span for sitting through passive cinematics these days. I'd rather just watch a move with a much better plot than any JRPG rather than playing a game with a lot of passive cutscenes.

Besides, a dressed up hackneyed, banal plot is still a hackneyed, banal plot at the end of the day.

[GuardianE]

There isn't one. Fighting games is a Japan-only thing.

Touche.

[Chacrana]

Uh what's so bad about Europe?

It's probably because I play a lot of PC games, but when you see a developer from Europe developed a game, you can be guaranteed a buggy product that will get several patches, and still be unplayable. And Rare is based on Europe.

There's a few exceptions, but my God has Europe got a problem with buggy games or me-too clones.

Limbo of the Lost, anyone?

[Chacrana]

Now see, I think the cinematics get boring and often cheesy. Part of the reason I lost interest in JRPGs.

What Bioware does best is doing it through dialog and giving you dialog options to help shape the story. That type of interaction is what makes me love their games. I don't have the attention span for sitting through passive cinematics these days. I'd rather just watch a move with a much better plot than any JRPG rather than playing a game with a lot of passive cutscenes.

Besides, a dressed up hackneyed, banal plot is still a hackneyed, banal plot at the end of the day.

Yeah, I'm pretty sick of shitty plots, too. I'm just sayin' that you can sometimes make a game bearable through good cinematics. RPGs with good movies are hard to find nowadays, but they do still exist. I also like the interactivity in CRPG's storylines, but I just wish the presentation was up to snuff. JRPG devs have a lot of thinking to do, for the most part.

[GuardianE]

I thought it was a very interesting EGM and got me thinking about how I feel regarding Japanese games. Outside of Nintendo games, I can think of very few Japanese games I care about. I love Western RPGs but deplore JRPGs. I think the interview of the guy making Bayonetta may reflect the stagnation of many Japanese games. He appeared to put to much emphasis on "sexiness," to the point I thought he was a 13 year old kid. Tits and ass can't keep a game afloat anymore like it's the nineties. I'm not saying the combat or anything else won't be good, I just think his obsession with sex might distract the quality of the game. That kind of mind-set reflects the lack of adaptation and innovation many Japanese games appear to suffer from.
Of course, this is just my opinion.

Hm, I don't know about that. Bayonetta is clearly being created with a representation of style and "flashy, pretty things" in mind, so that's the theme of that particular game, but I don't know if that's a true representation of the majority.

Oh and Sega has really been sucking ass lately, so I'm not so sure I trust this one.

[dmaul1114]

Yeah I'm just sayin' that you can sometimes make a game bearable through good cinematics. RPGs with good movies are hard to find nowadays, but they do still exist. I also like the interactivity in CRPG's storylines, but I just wish the presentation was up to snuff. JRPG devs have a lot of thinking to do, for the most part.

I see that, it just doesn't work for me. For me what makes up for a weak plot is having more interactivity in the game. A dialog/cutscene heavy game is much more tolerable for me if it has dialog options that affect gameplay.

[dmaul1114]

I thought it was a very interesting EGM and got me thinking about how I feel regarding Japanese games. Outside of Nintendo games, I can think of very few Japanese games I care about. I love Western RPGs but deplore JRPGs. I think the interview of the guy making Bayonetta may reflect the stagnation of many Japanese games. He appeared to put to much emphasis on "sexiness," to the point I thought he was a 13 year old kid. Tits and ass can't keep a game afloat anymore like it's the nineties. I'm not saying the combat or anything else won't be good, I just think his obsession with sex might distract the quality of the game. That kind of mind-set reflects the lack of adaptation and innovation many Japanese games appear to suffer from.
Of course, this is just my opinion.


Exactly, bayonetta just reinforced why I can't stand most Japanese games these days. Action game with a chick with guns in both hands and on her feet, who's outfit isnt' an outfit but magic hair that she can use in attacks. And wait for it, some of these attacks leave her near nude! *yawn*

That kind of absurd shit just completely kills any interest I have in games. I turn 30 this year, that type of stuff long since stopped interesting me. It's like japanese developers haven't realized that gamers are just (or mostly) teenage nerds into comic books, anime etc. anymore. Again, as Davison said, they are indeed stuck in 1998. The more I think about it the more I agree with his comment.

Even Soul Calibur IV, which I'm liking a lot is annoying with all the DOA style big, bouncing tits everywhere.

[Dr Mario Kart]

I think the only western developed console game I've ever played (Portable or otherwise) is Rebelstar Tactical Command. I didnt own any until recently because of Goozex, but I havent actually played them :P

Japanese gaming is doing fine abroad. Most of the what sold well in the U.S. has always been western:

Million sellers going way back:
http://www.the-magicbox.com/Chart-USPlatinum.shtml

Stuck in 1998 is fantastic. They've even shifted almost exclusively to DS to get that old timey feel of power/space restrictions.

Next-Gen has done a good job of fooling everyone into only THINKING that they arent playing the same old thing, because now you can play them with other people, and its also super shiny/brown.

[Chacrana]

Yeah, that quote backfired, since 1998 is like... the absolute best place to be. So many fuckin' good games.

[dmaul1114]

Next-Gen has done a good job of fooling everyone into only THINKING that they arent playing the same old thing, because now you can play them with other people, and its also super shiny/brown.

See I disagree with that, but I'm not going to argue with you since you refuse to go next gen (and haven't touched but 1 western game) there's little point as you have no perspective on the topic at hand.

Yeah, that quote backfired, since 1998 is like... the absolute best place to be. So many fuckin' good games.

It was a great year, but I'm sick of those games/types of games. 2007 was just as good for me....though I know you totally disagree. Zelda: OOT was great. Loved it. I also enjoyed Twilight Princess a lot, but couldn't fully enjoy it as it was pretty much the same fucking game.

I'm not a person that replays games, I beat them and move on. I get sick of things quickly. So staying in 1998 is a very bad thing for me.

[GuardianE]

Another element of Western vs. Japanese approach is the interactivity within a game.

dmaul1111 mentioned that having more interactivity can supplement a crappy plot. It seems to me that in a wide open game, you lose some directive... some motivation for why you're doing what you're doing. This is why I don't like Final Fantasy XII as much as Final Fantasy VII or VIII. Yes, the combat's been improved, the gameplay's been improved, and the graphics are sharper, but it lost something in that translation. There's less of a connection to the characters. It ends up feeling like an MMORPG that's not MMO.

In a game like GTA4, there is complete freedom and it still manages to have a cohesive and engaging plot. An applaudible accomplishment. I find it few and far between, though. My friends get on my case, but I can't stand Oblivion. I really just feel like there's nothing motivating my character to close these gates and save this land.

Japanese developers tend to make plotlines more structured (re:linear), as they don't want personal freedom to allow you to miss something cool and epic happening. And this is the case even with multiple endings, as your choices dictate story progression but it doesn't really feel like you're making the plot. On the other hand, Western developers sometimes give so much freedom that I don't give a crap.

I think there's a fine line. And quite frankly? The reason there's two different approaches to these games is because there's two different markets. It just so happens that most Western gamers don't care about following a particular plotline and would rather be allowed to do whatever they want to do. Asian gamers tend to want motivation for advancing the story and plot structure.

[leveskikesko]

It's probably because I play a lot of PC games, but when you see a developer from Europe developed a game, you can be guaranteed a buggy product that will get several patches, and still be unplayable. And Rare is based on Europe.

There's a few exceptions, but my God has Europe got a problem with buggy games or me-too clones.

Limbo of the Lost, anyone?

Oh, well I'm primarily a console gamer, so I don't really see that. I love me some European games. Beyond Good and Evil, Rayman 2, Lost Winds, and others are great fun.

I don't like how some people exclusively try to get one type of game. Eastern or Western.

I was just playing Shadow of the Colossus, Japanese game, but it does a lot of things like a Western game. Very huge world to explore with a camera that's not fixed.

Point being, just play the game, where it's from won't change a thing once you're having fun. I may mostly play Japanese games, but I don't go out of my way to make sure it's Japanese. For me it's more like, "oh so that was a Japanese game...cool", if it's not already painfully obvious by an anime styled cover art.

[coolsteel]

Now see, I think the cinematics get boring and often cheesy. Part of the reason I lost interest in JRPGs.

What Bioware does best is doing it through dialog and giving you dialog options to help shape the story. That type of interaction is what makes me love their games. I don't have the attention span for sitting through passive cinematics these days. I'd rather just watch a move with a much better plot than any JRPG rather than playing a game with a lot of passive cutscenes.

Besides, a dressed up hackneyed, banal plot is still a hackneyed, banal plot at the end of the day.

I agree with this, I was about ready to swear off rpgs for good a few years ago. It wasn't until I started playing Bioware's stuff that I had a complete 180 on my feelings about them, having a choice about how the story goes just added so much to the experience, I ate up the dialogue and had fun exploring the different branches.

[depascal22]

Capcom is still making good games. Lost Planet, Dead Rising, and Devil May Cry 4 were all excellent games. Konami is also did an excellent job with Metal Gear. Don't forget about SEGA and Virtua Fighter 5.

Other than that, I have to agree that the West has caught up. Gears of War, Bioshock, Mass Effect, and KOTOR are some of the best games of the decade.

Another thing that wasn't really mentioned in the article was how Japanese tastes are changing. Handhelds dominate over there so the need for pick up and play or "casual" games have increased. On the other hand, Americans have gravitated to the more hardcore FPS. You can ask why the Japanese don't make FPS and it's an easy answer. The Japanese are more prone to motion sickness while playing FPS. Why make games that won't be bought in the homeland? That's like GM making nothing but little electric cars.

One other thing to say is that gamers are pussies these days. People start playing Ninja Gaiden or Devil May Cry and they ask for an easy mode. I just beat DMC4 last night and it was one of the most satisfying feeling in the world. Those kind of hardcore experiences aren't available from the West. Gears on Insane is close.

EDIT -- I realized I contradicted myself. I said that Americans like the more hardcore FPS while Japanese make the more hardcore action game. Both statements are true. Thing is, I see alot of guys that play FPS only on multiplayer and won't even touch the single player modes. I'm one of those people. On the other hand, I like to play some games because of the difficulty. NG and DMC fit into that mold. I know it's gonna be tough before hand.

[GuardianE]

One other thing to say is that gamers are pussies these days. People start playing Ninja Gaiden or Devil May Cry and they ask for an easy mode. I just beat DMC4 last night and it was one of the most satisfying feeling in the world. Those kind of hardcore experiences aren't available from the West. Gears on Insane is close.

God of War 2 Titan Mode. :P

But yeah, I totally see that. I tend to be a sort of masochistic player and I can't turn down a challenge ever.

[Chacrana]

Oh, well I'm primarily a console gamer, so I don't really see that. I love me some European games. Beyond Good and Evil, Rayman 2, Lost Winds, and others are great fun.

I don't like how some people exclusively try to get one type of game. Eastern or Western.

I was just playing Shadow of the Colossus, Japanese game, but it does a lot of things like a Western game. Very huge world to explore with a camera that's not fixed.

Point being, just play the game, where it's from won't change a thing once you're having fun. I may mostly play Japanese games, but I don't go out of my way to make sure it's Japanese. For me it's more like, "oh so that was a Japanese game...cool", if it's not already painfully obvious by an anime styled cover art.

Heh, I think the only person who actively avoids Western games is Sarang, but in most people's cases, I think it's less of an issue of disliking Western games out of principle than disliking the trappings you'll usually find in those games.

[Chacrana]

One other thing to say is that gamers are pussies these days. People start playing Ninja Gaiden or Devil May Cry and they ask for an easy mode. I just beat DMC4 last night and it was one of the most satisfying feeling in the world. Those kind of hardcore experiences aren't available from the West. Gears on Insane is close.

There's something about the speed and absolute precision you need with those games on the difficult settings that makes higher difficulties so fun. Like, you just keep using some scrub tactic and the game's like "FUCK YOU."

[dmaul1114]

I think the camera argument is a valid one, but at the same time the only action game that has trumped the cameras of DMC or Ninja Gaiden (first one, not the god awful camera for the second one) is God of War.


Though only one example, it does kind of prove their point since GoW is a western developed game.


I think there's a fine line.

It's definitely a fine line. GTAIV and the Bioware games do it perfectly IMO. Both give you a lot of freedom, but also have engaging plots. That's what I want. I have limited time for gaming so I have the luxury of sticking to these cream of the crop games that get everything right for me.

I don't know about the culture difference. I think it's more JRPG developers being stuck in their ways. JRPGs still sell fairly well in the west, at least the big ones.



Point being, just play the game, where it's from won't change a thing once you're having fun. I may mostly play Japanese games, but I don't go out of my way to make sure it's Japanese.

That's a bit of a strawman there. I don't think anyone is saying they actively seek out games from certain countries and avoid them from others (other than Chac with Europe).

I seek out the best games in the genre's I like to play. It just happens that nowadays this produces very few Japanese games on my queue of games I'm interested in.


Another thing that wasn't really mentioned in the article was how Japanese tastes are changing. Handhelds dominate over there so the need for pick up and play or "casual" games have increased.


It actually did touch on that briefly.


One other thing to say is that gamers are pussies these days. People start playing Ninja Gaiden or Devil May Cry and they ask for an easy mode. I just beat DMC4 last night and it was one of the most satisfying feeling in the world. Those kind of hardcore experiences aren't available from the West. Gears on Insane is close.

Hey now, I've always been a pussy and hated hard games! :D I play games to relax, not get pissed off, frustrated, earn a sense of accomplishment etc.

That said, my buddy and I have been making a run at Gears on Insane. We're just past the Corpser in Act 3. Will put some more time into it this weekend probably.

[GuardianE]

That's a bit of a strawman there. I don't think anyone is saying they actively seek out games from certain countries and avoid them from others (other than Chac with Europe).


Yes, Japanese games and Western games tend to be very different. It's no secret. They're approached differently, stylistically they're different, and the focus tends to be on different things. It just ends up that if you're a die-hard fan of a particular genre, you're going to end up preferring either Western or Japanese simply because of the lay of the land.

[leveskikesko]

That's a bit of a strawman there. I don't think anyone is saying they actively seek out games from certain countries and avoid them from others (other than Chac with Europe).

I seek out the best games in the genre's I like to play. It just happens that nowadays this produces very few Japanese games on my queue of games I'm interested in.

Yeah, I kind of agree. Most people aren't like that, but I do know a few people that will pass up a game the instant they hear it's from Konami...or Bioware. Not because they really have tried out those games, but simply because they're japanese or western.

[dmaul1114]

Yeah, I kind of agree. Most people aren't like that, but I do know a few people that will pass up a game the instant they hear it's from Konami...or Bioware.

That's still not country bias though. Especially with bioware, if you don't like one of their games you're probably not going to like any of them as more open RPGs with dialog trees etc. probably aren't your thing.

Konami is tougher since they do a wider variety of games.

Oops, missed your edit. In any case my point was just pertaining to people in the thread thus far not in general.

[Dr Mario Kart]

Fortunately, neither "style" of development is going anywhere. They're both doing fine and theres plenty of market for them to coexist together in. For now anyway.

[willardhaven]

I think Western developers are catching up, so I'm not as focuses on Japanese games as I was.

[dmaul1114]

Fortunately, neither "style" of development is going anywhere. They're both doing fine and theres plenty of market for them to coexist together in. For now anyway.

The real worry would be for the number of Japanese "hardcore" games to decline as major Japanese developers focus more and more on casual games--see the bit from the square-enix publisher I referred to in my original post.

But you're right, neither is going away and that's a good thing. Variety is the spice of life.

[distgfx]

Western developers have been doing a lot better this time around. Don't get me wrong, I still love games that come out from japan but my focus seems to have shifted to western games. As someone who has never liked RPGs (JRPG or WRPG) I never had too much interest in games from japan in the first place, mainly fighters but not much else.

[depascal22]

It might be less about a decline in Japanese gaming and the rise in Western gaming. The increased competition only means good things for all of us gamers.

[Dr Mario Kart]

I am however, concerned that the current variety is going to diminish as development costs continue to go up cycle after cycle. In the future all of the non-HUGE budget games might be digital distribution only, which would pretty much signal my exit from home console gaming.

I'm nearly exclusively portable already anyway. Surely that last bastion will stand a lot longer.

[dmaul1114]

I'm nearly exclusively portable already anyway. Surely that last bastion will stand a lot longer.

I wouldn't count on it. With portable games being smaller in memory size, and the hardware having WiFi built in, I wouldn't be surprised if portables were where we first see a shift to digital distribution.

[The Mana Knight]

Decreased no doubt. I use to be almost exclusively into Japanese games, but not as much anymore. The only thing I truly like Japan for now is fighters and JRPGs.

[depascal22]

I think consoles will see digital distribution first especially now that the 360 has 60GB and the PS3 has 40 or 80GB. XBLA and PSN are good starters for that to happen.

[DarkSageRK]

I only have 3 console games developed by western developers, and I don't expect to see that changed very much. Doesn't matter how boring and generic RPGs are, so long as there's a girl to fap to in there, I'll play it. :/

[Dr Mario Kart]

Thats scary D:

Fortunately we have Nintendo actively working against progress :D

[distgfx]

Thats scary D:

Fortunately we have Nintendo actively working against progress :D

I laughed and cringed at the same time at that statement, lol.

I think everyone's making good points though, portables may get digital distribution first because for the simple reason they're portable systems. Much easier to buy a huge memory stick and put several games on it rather than carry around a bunch of cartridges, UMDs or whatever media they'll use. Console games are far too big in my opinion to see digital distribution for a long time.

[depascal22]

Unless they go to the episodic content like Penny Arcade. Plus, games are getting shorter and shorter. Hell, Halo 3 comes in at around 7 hours. There's a way they could get games that length onto XBLA or PSN.

[62t]

Racing - Burnout series has been better than just about every game not GT.
Puzzle- Puzzle Quest, Crush PSP - just as good as any Japanese pzzule game in recent years.
Online game - Western game wins
3d platform - Aside from Mario it was Crash in PS1, Jak/ Rachket in PS2.
Music game - Guitar Hero and Rock Band been better than Japanese music games.
Sports - FIFA been catching up to Winning Eleven.

[Chacrana]

Hopefully they will be funnier than Penny Arcade, tho.

[distgfx]

Unless they go to the episodic content like Penny Arcade.

...Good point

[Reality's Fringe]

The sooner people stop treating Japan like some kind of holy-land, the better.

JRPGs have been long, boring slogs for YEARS now and most of their action games are same old same old.

Western devs are taking them to school in my book.

[willardhaven]

Western developers are just as guilty of making boring crap.

[cochesecochese]

Now that I think about it, there's an ideal solution:

US makes 3D games, Japan makes 2D games, Europe fucks off.

Rockstar says 'Hi.'

[The Crotch]

I definitely play fewer Japanese games and more Western games these days. This isn't so much of a "quality of Japanese games is declining" thing (except in the case of SEGA and Square), it's more a matter of Blizzard, Bioware, etc. being so fucking good. Now, Japanese games will always make up a pretty large part of my library 'cause I'm a huge sucker for all the old Nintendo franchises, but looking back over the last few years, I can see that about 75% of my favourite games have come from North America.

[dmaul1114]

I think consoles will see digital distribution first especially now that the 360 has 60GB and the PS3 has 40 or 80GB. XBLA and PSN are good starters for that to happen.

True. I should have been more clear. I meant that I think portables will be the first to shit totally to digital distribution. I think we'll see a portable that has no hard copy software before we'll see such a console.

[B:L]

I do wanna comment that this issue of EGM is pretty damn interesting, just because this is a legitimate topic that has some meaning.

It's a piece of shit xenophobic EGM article.

[pochaccoheaven]

anyone got the link?
i would like to read it.

[Chacrana]

It's a piece of shit xenophobic EGM article.

The topic is legitimate, but yes, EGM does seem completely against Japanese devs since they're basically droning on about how stale they are for the whole issue.

[Chacrana]

anyone got the link?
i would like to read it.

I don't think it's online yet, but it's not one article - it's literally like the whole issue.

[dmaul1114]

Xenophobic? Give me a break. Some people are just tired of the stale japanese games. Nothing to do with the culture.

[Chacrana]

Well I read through John Davison's bit in the magazine and his column really did read like a bash-fest... like he wasn't even willing to consider a positive. His head was quite far up his ass.

[depascal22]

While that article was pretty xenophobic, the article with Sakaguchi, Amano, and Uematsu was pretty good. They also had an article with Itagaki that was good. The rest of the articles showed a pretty fair and balanced approach (and not in a Fox News way). Not every artcle is going to be lovey lovey to the people you want. All those guys at the roundtable discussion worked in Japan and I don't think we can say that for any of us. I liked the insider's view instead of the gamer's view that dominates these forums.

[willardhaven]

The interviews were solid, it was probably their best issue that I've gotten for free (since fall 2005).

I don't see why they claim the Japanese games are in trouble (Western games have a large suck ratio too), but I don't think they dislike Japanese games for being Japanese.

[SithFran]

So all Japanese companies make JRPG's and casual games and western companies make FPS's and sports games. At least it's clear. As for me I've been tired of 99% of FPS's since they started and I will not play sports games. Course now a days I have time to play about 5 games a year it seems.

[deszaras]

The sooner people stop treating Japan like some kind of holy-land, the better.

JRPGs have been long, boring slogs for YEARS now and most of their action games are same old same old.

Western devs are taking them to school in my book.

Truth.
People calling the article xenophobic is fucking ridiculous. Just because a publication is finally and openly pointing at the stagnation of Japanese games does not mean it's xenophobic. Hell, some of the Japanese developers agree and further explain the problems. Xenophobic? Gimme a break.:roll:

[willardhaven]

Truth.
People calling the article xenophobic is fucking ridiculous. Just because a publication is finally and openly pointing at the stagnation of Japanese games does not mean it's xenophobic. Hell, some of the Japanese developers agree and further explain the problems. Xenophobic? Gimme a break.:roll:


Yeah I'm not sure why people started throwing that word around. They even pay homage to some classic Japanese games in the back.

[Ryuukishi]

Personally I have little interest in Western games. FPS, WRPG, and sports games do nothing for me; I like JRPG, fighting games, and shoot-em-ups. I can't think of a Western-developed game I've played in the past few years except for Guitar Hero and Rock Band. There are definitely differences between Western and Japanese gaming as a whole, not just in the genres represented, but in art style, tone, and just general feeling.

Frankly I don't see any more stagnation in Japanese development than in Western development; there's plenty to go around. It may be true that Tales of Vesperia is the same game we were playing 10 years ago except with better graphics, but you could just as easily say the same of Mass Effect or Halo.

[Chacrana]

Truth.
People calling the article xenophobic is fucking ridiculous. Just because a publication is finally and openly pointing at the stagnation of Japanese games does not mean it's xenophobic. Hell, some of the Japanese developers agree and further explain the problems. Xenophobic? Gimme a break.:roll:

Did you actually read some of the articles?

[dmaul1114]

Did you actually read some of the articles?

I read them all, there's no xenophobia.


"xenophobia: an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange. "


The articles are bashing Japanese games for being stale, being stuck in 1998 as Davison put it.

It has nothing to do with a fear or hatred of the games for being foreign. All these people grew up playing and loving Japanese games--they didn't all of a sudden turn into xenophobes and start hating everything Japanese.

They, like me, just grew sick of these games. They're mostly the same shit I was playing when I was a kid. I liked them then, but all these game with silly anime-ish plots, ridiculously large chested women etc. just don't appeal to me any more. Western games appeal to me more now.

It has nothing to do with being xenophobic, it's 100% that the bulk of Japanese games don't fit my adult gaming tastes. And that's the exact same feel I got from Davison's column and everything else in there.

Disliking something doesn't equal "unreasonable fear or hatred." I've always hated Anime too--has nothing to do with xenophobia. I don't like western cartoons either. Similarly, you can bash Japanese games without being xenophobic--it's just simply not liking the games which are very different and distinct from western games.

[depascal22]

But the point is instead of going off on the Japanese for falling off, why not praise American developers instead? Why make things negative instead of positive?

Are Japanese games really falling off? Nintendo, Capcom, and Konami are releasing hit after hit. Don't forget 2008 is the year of the fighting game and those sure as hell ain't coming from the West.

Now because those games don't fit the exact mold that gamers want, people bash them. Do Japanese games suck now? No, your tastes changed. That doesn't make Japanese games suck. It makes you an adult. I'm sure we all did things when we were younger that we don't do now. Does that mean Garbage Pail Kids and baseball cards suck? No. It just means we moved on.

For the record, I love any game as long as it's fun. That can related to difficulty, gameplay mechanics, graphics, or whatever catches my fancy.

Oh, and for the games being exactly the same as they were ten years ago, DMC 4 and MGS 4 beg to differ. They both offered gaming experiences that are only available on this or the last generation of consoles. Compare Lost Planet to any other third person shooter from ten years ago. Can you really say that it's the same experience? The controls are silky smooth and the graphics, while not the best of this generation, are pretty damn good.

I think more people need to actually play a game without giving consideration to where it was developed. I see too many people in these forums that admittedly don't want to play anything Japanese. That's kind of where the xenophobic thing came from. It's not only present in the article but on these boards.

[dmaul1114]

But the point is instead of going off on the Japanese for falling off, why not praise American developers instead? Why make things negative instead of positive?

Negative stories are better press than positive ones. If it had been framed as an article on the rise of western gaming I doubt I or anyone else would have started a thread on it. It's still not xenophobia.


Are Japanese games really falling off? Nintendo, Capcom, and Konami are releasing hit after hit.

All you have to do is look at sales charts and see how they're western dominated (aside from Nintendo) compared to how they used to be totally dominated by Japanese games.

Otherwise, it's just opinion. I used to play a ton of Japanese games, now I play hardly any (SCIV is the one I've bought this year and looks to be the only one I buy in 2008).

It's not a case that Western games have risen and I'm playing them equally to Japanese games. It's that my interest in Japanese games has fallen AND my interest in western games has risen.

That doesn't make Japanese games suck. It makes you an adult. I'm sure we all did things when we were younger that we don't do now. Does that mean Garbage Pail Kids and baseball cards suck? No. It just means we moved on.

Agreed. I wouldn't say Japanese games suck--nor does the EGM article. It just says that--like Garbage Pale Kids and Baseball Cards--Japanese games for the most part haven't evolved to meet some of our tastes as we're pushing 30. Western games have. There are still great Japanese games, just many fewer that meet my current tastes than in the past when I was younger.


I think more people need to actually play a game without giving consideration to where it was developed. I see too many people in these forums that admittedly don't want to play anything Japanese. That's kind of where the xenophobic thing came from. It's not only present in the article but on these boards.

But not in this thread or the EGM article. Everyone here is talking from experience. I try Japanese games often, I just don't like many of them. But with demos, rentals etc. it's easy to try a lot of games. And I'll keep doing so as I don't want to miss great games. And I still have hopes that Japanese developers will snap out of this rut they're in and start making more games that appeal to my tastes.

[deszaras]

Did you actually read some of the articles?

I read the whole damn magazine, cover to cover.

[depascal22]

All you have to do is look at sales charts and see how they're western dominated (aside from Nintendo) compared to how they used to be totally dominated by Japanese games.

Madden would like to kill your argument. Madden will never be game of the year material but more people line up to buy that than Halo, GTA, and Mario. At the same time, Psychonauts and Okami barely even sell. You just can't use sales numbers to argue quality.

Street Fighter II used to be the game that ruled them all. Before the sequel came out, arcades died and interest in 2D fighters went with it. Street Fighter III culminated with Third Strike but the game didn't sell a tenth of it's SFII. Was Third Strike a tenth as good? No. Hell, it's even better in most regards. Our tastes changed but the quality of the games didn't. Hell, now that Soul Calibur paved the way (which sold a crap ton of games in the first week) don't be surprised to see Street Fighter IV sell a couple million games and bring people back to fighting games.

[dmaul1114]

Madden would like to kill your argument. Madden will never be game of the year material but more people line up to buy that than Halo, GTA, and Mario. At the same time, Psychonauts and Okami barely even sell. You just can't use sales numbers to argue quality.

I wasn't arguing quality, just that western games surpassed Japanese games in market dominance (which was a part of the EGM discussions). And Madden is usually a damn fine game year in and year out--maybe not game of the year but it wins a lot of game of the month awards and sports game of the year awards. I'm not a fan as modern sports sims are too realistic and complicated for my liking, but Madden is a quality franchise for fans of the genre.

Anyway, as I said, the quality argument is entirely subjective and whether you're tastes lean toward Japanese or western games will depend largely on what genre's you like. I don't like JRPGs and I'm not big on action games or schumps so I'm limited to the occasional fighting game, puzzle game, platformer etc. While I love FPS games and western RPGs, stuff like GTAIV etc. so I spend vastly more of my time on Western games.

So I don't debate that stuff as it's totally subjective as to which style of games you like more. But opinions on quality aside there's not question the market has shifted greatly towards western developed games--somewhat last generation and much more this gen.

[pochaccoheaven]

why was nintendo considered an exception?

[H.Cornerstone]

I think the biggest issue Japanese devs are running into is the fact that there games take so freaking long to make, and Western Devs have better technology.

I think those were two points made in the article as well.

And I also said my interest is declining, Most of the games that come out now from Japan are either Fighters or JRPGs, which I could care less for. I am a big action game fan and it seems like Americans are doing that much better these days, especially Naughty Dog, Insomniac, Sucker Punch and Sony Santa Monica. God of War was my favorite game last gen, and although Devil May Cry was awesome, I have trouble playing it after God of War because God of War is so much better technically with the camera and graphics. And, it actually has a story I can understand. Which is another problem with Japanese Devs, I hardly can ever understand the story!

However, I did really like Metal Gear Solid, and the camera was sometimes annoying, but not too much, but the story was still awesome and the gameplay was amazing as well.

[Rodimus]

I read the entire magazine also. It was a good read and I have to agree that Japanese games are getting stale. Take a look at E3. Besides Resident Evil 5 there wasn't much to be excited about.

[62t]

I like how the issue mention nothing about Persona 3 when they give it a gold award a few months ago.

[torifile]

A big point being made was that Japanese developers are loathe to reuse game engines, dramatically slowing down development time and increasing costs. I don't know how much of that is true, but it's a point worth considering.

Of note is that Square is licensing the Unreal Engine for The Last Remnant. Also, that Crystal Tools is supposed to be an engine that will get some attention. We'll see how well those 2 developments come out.

[62t]

Two of the biggest RPGs out this year use old engine


FFIV uses same engine as FFIII
Persona 4 uses same engine as Persona 3

Koei also isnt shy about using the same engine for their games. NIS also uses the same formula for their games. I am also guessing Mana-Khemia 2 and Ar tonelico II used the same engine as the original

[camoor]

It's a piece of shit xenophobic EGM article.

Is that the next Xenosaga?

[Dr Mario Kart]

While your point is fair, 62t, I'm going to draw a hair splitting distinction between reusing an engine for the same type of game and using the same engine for different games.

In the case of a P4 or NIS games, they ARE basically the same game, so reusing the first engine they built specifically for the first game is fine.

Using an engine historically used for shooter type games (or any multi-use engine) for RPGs is another matter. Yes, I'm sure the Unreal engine kicks ass and is flexible as hell, but I have to assume that an RPG built truly ground up is going to be a better game.

[dmaul1114]

why was nintendo considered an exception?

Because they're the only exception in terms of still being a dominant sales force. They give them credit, but one developer can't carry an east vs. west game development debate.

Plus, they're not doing much for "hardcore" gamers. Their franchises are just as stale as any other japanese developer IMO and their other hits are casual games not aimed at gamers. But more power to them as they're making a killing doing so.

[rhymetimesfine]

my interest in japanese game development increased mainly because of the rise of the west. boundaries will be pushed and gamers will win. team ico's next project has space reserved in my dreams :bouncy:

[akilshohen]

and for the Record, DJFFNY was developed by Aki and EA canada jointly. I believe that EA just mostly did the presentation.

[pochaccoheaven]

Because they're the only exception in terms of still being a dominant sales force. They give them credit, but one developer can't carry an east vs. west game development debate.

Plus, they're not doing much for "hardcore" gamers. Their franchises are just as stale as any other japanese developer IMO and their other hits are casual games not aimed at gamers. But more power to them as they're making a killing doing so.

rofl, malstrom is right about the hardcore.

[LeafPanda]

I don't think Japanese gaming is dying. I mean I think Rpgs are just fucking great and all these action games are also amazing. Also, don't forget Street Fighter, Tekken and Soul Calibur. Other than RPGs there are so many other genres of gaming that the Japanese have made. I also think Bayonetta is looking fandamtastic. Also, what 62t said about Persona 3.

[DQT]

For me, the Japanese have always succeeded in art direction. My favorite Japanese games have always been pleasing to the eye. All Tom Clancy games look the same to me. 1up constantly makes jokes about bald space marines created by western developers and I can't blame them. It's usually either that or high fantasy nonsense. It really turns me off. The games can be really great, but they have a big uphill struggle with me. Japan may release tons of anime crap but they do get their LocoRocos, Pac-Man championship editions, and Street Fighter 4s.

I've seen glimmers of hope with Bioware, (Sonic Chronicles fits artistically with the Sonic games while still being distinct) Insomniac, and 2k Boston.

I do think creatively, Japan could stand to improve but I do have a bias towards them.

[willardhaven]

For some reason U.S. developers tend to hire 14-year-olds to head their art teams.

[Rozz]

I think that the quality of the interviews was poor. Especially Itagaki's, where he was apparently drunk when EGM interviewed him.

[rapsodist]

I noticed about two years ago that an overwhelming majority of games that interested me were non-Japanese. It was quite a shock to me considering that I'd always grown up with the idea that Japanese games were unquestionably superior in mechanics, design, story, art, music, creativity, you name it.

Things are changing. But I hesitate to say that Japanese game development has declined in quality. I simply think the rest of the world has stepped up and proven that they have just as much to contribute to gaming.

[DQT]

For some reason U.S. developers tend to hire 14-year-olds to head their art teams.

They sure ass hell aren't working at Blizzard, otherwise Diablo III would be much darker. :)

Strange considering we have some of the best artists in the world whose style could be adapted in video game form. Just open a comic book.

[dmaul1114]

Things are changing. But I hesitate to say that Japanese game development has declined in quality. I simply think the rest of the world has stepped up and proven that they have just as much to contribute to gaming.

Again, to clarify by using decline in the title I just meant in terms of popularity, innovation and importance.

I don't think quality has declined, I think it's just stayed the same while American developers have done a better job of making games that appeal to my (and many other's) adult gaming tastes.

A lot of Japanese games are stuff I would have loved 10-15 years ago, but just don't care much about now that I'm older.

[rapsodist]

A lot of Japanese games are stuff I would have loved 10-15 years ago, but just don't care much about now that I'm older.

That's a good point! I used to be obsessed with Japanese RPGs so much that I was a reviews writer for an RPG website; I was the kind of person who imported artbooks, soundtracks, figurines, you name it. I probably played through 100 JRPGs, from Dragon Quest in 1989 to Grandia II in 2000.

But by the time 2001 rolled around and brought Final Fantasy X, my tastes had changed and I couldn't stomach that game's adolescent pondering and awkward pining. At the time I thought the FF series was just going down the hole, but I've come to see that it was more about me growing up and leaving such things behind. Most of the RPGs I've enjoyed since have been western games like Knights of the Old Republic and Elder Scrolls IV, which are distinctly different from their Japanese counterparts.

To me, the difference is that Japanese RPGs ponder the question, "Who am I and what should I do?" while western RPGs let you assert, "This is who I am and this is what I do."

[LeafPanda]

That's a good point! I used to be obsessed with Japanese RPGs so much that I was a reviews writer for an RPG website; I was the kind of person who imported artbooks, soundtracks, figurines, you name it. I probably played through 100 JRPGs, from Dragon Quest in 1989 to Grandia II in 2000.

But by the time 2001 rolled around and brought Final Fantasy X, my tastes had changed and I couldn't stomach that game's adolescent pondering and awkward pining. At the time I thought the FF series was just going down the hole, but I've come to see that it was more about me growing up and leaving such things behind. Most of the RPGs I've enjoyed since have been western games like Knights of the Old Republic and Elder Scrolls IV, which are distinctly different from their Japanese counterparts.

To me, the difference is that Japanese RPGs ponder the question, "Who am I and what should I do?" while western RPGs let you assert, "This is who I am and this is what I do."
The thing is, not all games by the Japanese are RPGs.

[dmaul1114]

True, but you see the same stagnation (IMO) in action games, fighting games etc. in that stuff I'd have liked when I was 15 just doesn't appeal to me now that I'm almost 30.

RPGs are just the best example as the stories, anime influenced designed etc. just don't do anything for me any more.

But for me it's mainly just chaning tastes. FPS are about all I play these days, along with the occasional western RPG or action game or something like GTA so Japanese games don't get much attention from me aside from the occasional puzzle or fighing game. Or maybe the odd action-adventure game like Okami or something.

[deszaras]

All Tom Clancy games look the same to me. 1up constantly makes jokes about bald space marines created by western developers and I can't blame them. It's usually either that or high fantasy nonsense. It really turns me off.

I guess it's like the Western developers continual use buffed up space marines, high fantasy, special ops, etc is similar to Japanese developers use of androgynous males and emo characters. Of course our perceptions are based on the majority of the more visible games. That being said, the androgyny in many Japanese games annoy the hell out of me.

[rapsodist]

The thing is, not all games by the Japanese are RPGs.

I think that's pretty obvious to everyone. I don't think that fact affects what I said at all. I was talking specifically about the RPG genre. I never said or implied that all Japanese games are RPGs --I never even discussed the probability that the genre best represents Japanese games-- so I have no idea why you chose to point that out.

[rapsodist]

I just noticed that 8 out of 9 games pictured in my signature are Japanese. Of course, many of them are old games but I guess I know where my heart lies even after all this time. :)

[Sarang01]

Heh, I think the only person who actively avoids Western games is Sarang, but in most people's cases, I think it's less of an issue of disliking Western games out of principle than disliking the trappings you'll usually find in those games.

I do have some Western games just no so many persay. I have a tremendous amount more respect for the Japanese market because if one takes the risk it will usually be the Japanese company or one in particular almost always, that being Sega. Now that Sammy has bought them they've become the bitch and their quality has declined just so much. Sega had one of the most important things, making Arthouse product successful or getting attention, the budget to back it up to cover development. If ANY company, be it Western or Eastern, has a great idea for a product but doesn't have the budget to come close to pulling it off we all have a real loss there. I'm sure there are some small companies trying to think innovative but it just comes off as gimmicky bullshit because they don't have the budget. It's worse now as the companies are unlikely to take the risk as it's more high cost now.
Shit look at some of the art designs even in the older Sega stuff and compare what most companies would design, including said Japanese companies on average. Look at the style of the dragons in Panzer Dragoon, look at Azel's hairstyle in Saga for crying out loud. Sega also achieved something in Jet Set Radio no one in gaming had done before. The visual style of the game itself and some of the idea perfectly exemplified the culture of Hip-Hop. Now when did "Clockwork Knight" come out? That was cute, some ideas quite well executed. It's basically Toy Story in 2D in a sense with 3D elements. For the idea's well executed I liked having to watch out for the TV dinners falling on you.
Oh and for the art design idea mentioned further up I applaud Atlus for twisting Western Mythology on it's head, Thor as a monster for one. I LOVED that idea. "Fate: Stay/Night" has similar ideas so maybe it's just in Japanese culture but relatively few act upon it.
I guess I really should add Atlus for the part of being innovative. They managed to flip the script on an FPS a bit. "Maken X" and brainjacking anyone? These FPS people will NOT go out of their comfort zone, the Westerners I mean, so how would we ever see that here? Atlus managed to flip the script a bit in a genre so tired and lifeless in terms of innovative. How many FPS's do we even know of that you can create a huge variety of weapons, all with different strengths and weaknesses like "Dark Cloud 2"?
Oh and need I remind people, one of my most anticipated games, one I DESPERATELY want, is from a Western company. Anyone remember Nibris and Sadness? A game entirely set in black and white as well as being completely psychological in Horror? It's also set around the Victorian era. It's good to see the script flipped.
Two games I quite like, Eternal Darkness and Illbleed, are from both Western and Eastern devs. Though I give Illbleed the edge. See the ending of the Earthworm stage, it's so fucked up and funny for that reason. Oh and ED made it WAY too easy to refill the Sanity gauge. There should've been a hard or very hard mode that had it where it was almost impossible to keep full or dang hard.

[lordxixor101]

Sarang,

I kind of agree with you (though, I would argue that few games take some of the risks that GTA makes).

I wonder how much of this is influenced by ownership. Many of the big US based companies are publically owned at one level or another. For whatever reason, the US is very focused on quarterly performance. You have to produce every 3 months. Because of this, if you take a flier on a new genre of game and it fails (and how often do we think that successfully innovative titles actually are financial disasters), it has consequences.

Buyers of games rarely purchase innovative titles, unless they are in a title that they feel comfortable with (Super Mario Galaxy was innovative in my mind, and people will buy a Mario title).

[jer7583]

Most japanese games are relics of the past that refuse to move forward. The only genres they really excel at anymore is fighting games and platformers.

Western and European developers have really brought things forward this gen with mechanics and design and cut a lot of the fat accumulated in the time of japanese games' reign.

Nintendo is obviously the difference in this example as they've always been pretty much awesome and have tried lots of new things. I love Nintendo, but for some reason I don't even think of them as japanese in the traditional sense. Capcom is another one that is really excelling rently and I've enjoyed almost all of their games.

[Sarang01]

Sarang,

I kind of agree with you (though, I would argue that few games take some of the risks that GTA makes).

I wonder how much of this is influenced by ownership. Many of the big US based companies are publically owned at one level or another. For whatever reason, the US is very focused on quarterly performance. You have to produce every 3 months. Because of this, if you take a flier on a new genre of game and it fails (and how often do we think that successfully innovative titles actually are financial disasters), it has consequences.

Buyers of games rarely purchase innovative titles, unless they are in a title that they feel comfortable with (Super Mario Galaxy was innovative in my mind, and people will buy a Mario title).

Oh and for those out there that like the exploration aspect of Western RPG's I think Skies added it in nicely while still having a plot. It's quite fun trying to find all the discoveries.
I would love a Skies sequel with a massive amount of Discoveries to find(at least 500), 20 or so of which would also be things like secret weapon shops and such. Also for the online 500 separate discoveries would be included for fellow gamers to actively compete against each other as these would only be recognized when you're online. Heck there 500 may not even do it, more like 1000 would. I also like the idea of it including complimentary co-op to have a few people you can beat the game with while online.

Xixor the biggest problem with some of these Western companies, EA in particular, is they try to apply some standard business models which probably don't work as well for video games and movies as they do for other things.

As for having Arthouse product I wonder if getting people like Guillermo Del Toro, Darren Arronovsky and others creating their own game companies and promoting them wouldn't help tremendously. I mean letting their companies be very open in ideas for one as well as just fund raising to get the game done and slowly pay back the borrowers after sales. This is how the independent movie market functions. Oh of course the whole movie is shown to all interested parties so that couldn't be done exactly. I'm thinking you have a build that shuts down when you get a 1/4 of the way through or something. Just enough of the game to pique one's interest to see if this looks like something is golden or whatever. Have all the companies who try the game sign NDA's with it rendered null and void to the company who purchases the rights to it.

Shit even using the Indie movie system they could independently publish as well. The issue there though is being able to really sell product depending on your distribution contacts. I mean you could end up like "Ku-on" did, only being sold at Gamestop, EB and Fry's. The same thing happened with the first "Culdcept" as well.

[pochaccoheaven]

is it that japanese gaming is dead or is it that the current consoles [360/ps3] has headed a different direction which causes a lot of the people to dislike it?

[dmaul1114]

is it that japanese gaming is dead or is it that the current consoles [360/ps3] has headed a different direction which causes a lot of the people to dislike it?

Its the responsibility of developers to keep up with technology.

And I think Japan has in terms of graphics, sound etc. It's lack of innovation in gameplay, not doing as well with cameras and control in 3D games on average etc. that's lessened my interest.

The best Japanese games look and sound as good as the best western games for the most part. Maybe you could make a case that Japanese developers haven't done as well with online play--you may have a case there.

[DQT]

I was thinking about Portal and their all student team. Could Portal have happened in Japan? Probably not. I think Americans are more willing to take risks and let the best ideas flourish regardless of who came up with them, whereas the Japanese business culture (whoever stays in the company longest or has a proven track record comes up with game concepts) gets in the way of innovation.

Square Enix is an interesting case. They've actually taken a risk and allowed all their younger staff create Last Remnant on their own. They're also the company that has Tetsuya Nomura create 90% of their games.

[Chacrana]

I was thinking about Portal and their all student team. Could Portal have happened in Japan? Probably not. I think Americans are more willing to take risks and let the best ideas flourish regardless of who came up with them, whereas the Japanese business culture (whoever stays in the company longest or has a proven track record comes up with game concepts) gets in the way of innovation.

Square Enix is an interesting case. They've actually taken a risk and allowed all their younger staff create Last Remnant on their own. They're also the company that has Tetsuya Nomura create 90% of their games.

Not willing to take risks? Japan came up with an arcade game where you stick a phallic object into an asshole. That's... not exactly playing it safe.

[Sarang01]

Not willing to take risks? Japan came up with an arcade game where you stick a phallic object into an asshole. That's... not exactly playing it safe.

Actually to my knowledge Koreans made that but it might be the most popular in Japan. I assume you're talking about the arcade game with the giant index finger right?

DQT while "Segagaga" started as a Doujin project Sega published it and THAT was ballsy. Maybe not innovative but I definitely appreciate the idea of the humor in it, you playing Sega, fighting against Dogma, them lampooning a national Anti-Alcohol Spokesperson who I assume must've been a spazz(later taken out after the first pressing or whatever). Seriously recognize that for what it is, a game NO ONE else would've had the balls to publish period.
Sega also ended up breaking up various divisions and letting them do their own thing, Smilebit for one. Look what we got out of them and United Game Artists as well.
I do think the Japanese do use Anime too often in over the top antics crap which needs to stop though. Phoenix Wright is one example. "Objecdtion!". Seriously just tone it the fuck down, not everything needs to be like that or most Anime. A perfect example is "Battle Athletes" compared to "Battle Athletes Victory" but I'm getting off topic now.

[62t]

I was thinking about Portal and their all student team. Could Portal have happened in Japan? Probably not. I think Americans are more willing to take risks and let the best ideas flourish regardless of who came up with them, whereas the Japanese business culture (whoever stays in the company longest or has a proven track record comes up with game concepts) gets in the way of innovation.

Square Enix is an interesting case. They've actually taken a risk and allowed all their younger staff create Last Remnant on their own. They're also the company that has Tetsuya Nomura create 90% of their games.

Last Remant isnt really a big risk as it includes member of the saga staff and uses Unreal 3 engine.

At the same time you will never see something like Otomedius G in the USA either. You wont see any game that uses a $300 control.

[LeafPanda]

I think that's pretty obvious to everyone. I don't think that fact affects what I said at all. I was talking specifically about the RPG genre. I never said or implied that all Japanese games are RPGs --I never even discussed the probability that the genre best represents Japanese games-- so I have no idea why you chose to point that out.
eh your right sorry =P

[Aleryn]

Bout the same here as the past 10 or so years. But I started on Japanese stuff in the 80s, got a PC in the early 90s... and discovering the beauty of western gaming on the PC in, what I consider, it's golden age - the 90s. So I have A LOT of western gaming under my belt.

Nowadays about the only Japanese stuff I play are JRPGs, JSRPGs, Shoot em ups, and Fighters. My genre interest in their stuff has lowered, but thats the case with my western interest as well. Just not as far ranging in genres as I use to be.

Play a fairly even mix of Japanese, and western games, overall.

[DQT]

DQT while "Segagaga" started as a Doujin project Sega published it and THAT was ballsy. Maybe not innovative but I definitely appreciate the idea of the humor in it, you playing Sega, fighting against Dogma, them lampooning a national Anti-Alcohol Spokesperson who I assume must've been a spazz(later taken out after the first pressing or whatever). Seriously recognize that for what it is, a game NO ONE else would've had the balls to publish period.


It is sooooo appropriate to bring Segagaga into this discussion since it's themes are so relevant today. I would love to play Segagaga, but I think the jokes would go over my head.

[Sarang01]

It is sooooo appropriate to bring Segagaga into this discussion since it's themes are so relevant today. I would love to play Segagaga, but I think the jokes would go over my head.

Well I think putting out a Doujin product like Sega did is ballsy even by itself. It wasn't a proven product or anything like Air was. I was using it as a point in response to your comment about Portal and it being a ballsy move by Valve as this was a team of all students.

[dmaul1114]

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3169938

Looks like all the interviews are up on 1up now, just in case anyone who doesn't get EGM wanted to read them.

[Paco]

Last Remant isnt really a big risk as it includes member of the saga staff and uses Unreal 3 engine.

At the same time you will never see something like Otomedius G in the USA either. You wont see any game that uses a $300 control.

I call bullshit on this. That's a HUGE fucking risk right there. Letting the Saga team touch ANYTHING is a risk. :lol: