Kucinich Speech at DNCC: Finally Someone Gets It

[mykevermin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4EN7ibO1ec

It's a shame that people focus on his character quirks (vegan, hot wife, short, vegan) because he's one of the more brilliant and charismatic Democrats.

[Koggit]

4:05 - 4:30 = yes, win

The rest was a little too partisan and "go team" for my tastes, it felt like a battle call more than raising legit issues.

Was the chick at 4:28 mouthing "blue"? She looks retarded. LOL tards.

[mykevermin]

^ I did notice that, too. Poor soul couldn't follow along and got caught on camera in the process.

[Unickuta]

He's way too much like Adlai Stevenson - extremely likable, makes fun of a physical feature of his (his shortness to Adlai's baldness), and very liberal. And while everyone in the Dem party loved Adlai, and he was a great guy, he was absoulutely destroyed in the presidential elections.

[Ikohn4ever]

he seems like hes on too much sugar

[elprincipe]

Kucinich is a nutjob. Just MHO.

[Msut77]

Kucinich is a nutjob. Just MHO.

http://www.local6.com/news/17303360/detail.html

The guy above is a nutjob, the people you support (despite your kabuki theater saying otherwise) are whackjobs.

[Sarang01]

You're my friend, myke, but you're straight up being an asshole for calling being a Vegan a character quirk.

[RAMSTORIA]

wow, what a load of bs. how about this...

wake up america, the dems helped pass all the things kucinich just complained about. he brought up wire-tapping... obama voted for fisa! he complained about iraq and the cost of the war... the dems voted for the war and pay for it time and time again. he complains about entitlement programs and then screams for an increase in retirement benefits and neglects to say that medicare reform in 2001 wouldnt have passed without the dems.

dont get me wrong, the republicans are just as much to blame. but this kind of rambling we-didnt-do-it speech is very annoying. i didnt like kucinich in the primaries, and i like him even less after those 5 minutes of pandering to a party that gave him the shaft 110% just a few months ago.

[Koggit]

Ram, nobody's going to take you seriously until you change your sig. It basically announces to the world that you'll go ad hominem long before conceding any point, in which case replying to you is a complete waste of time.

Just a heads up.

[RAMSTORIA]

Ram, nobody's going to take you seriously until you change your sig. It basically announces to the world that you'll go ad hominem long before conceding any point, in which case replying to you is a complete waste of time.

Just a heads up.

Koggit Koggit Koggit... I thought we were buds. The sig 100% satire. I was inspired by JolietJake's sig (http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/7774/mccaincryptkeeperco7.jpg) so I whipped this up tonight. The truth is, I don't prefer one candidate over the other, I just wanted something silly to be the polar opposite to JolietJake. (plus I'm about 8 beers deep).

[Koggit]

JolietJake's is epic, I LOL'd

[thrustbucket]

wow, what a load of bs. how about this...

wake up america, the dems helped pass all the things kucinich just complained about. he brought up wire-tapping... obama voted for fisa! he complained about iraq and the cost of the war... the dems voted for the war and pay for it time and time again. he complains about entitlement programs and then screams for an increase in retirement benefits and neglects to say that medicare reform in 2001 wouldnt have passed without the dems.

dont get me wrong, the republicans are just as much to blame. but this kind of rambling we-didnt-do-it speech is very annoying. i didnt like kucinich in the primaries, and i like him even less after those 5 minutes of pandering to a party that gave him the shaft 110% just a few months ago.

It's simple: When one party is the majority for so long, the requisite song of the other party is "I didn't do it, don't look at me". Even though, as you try to point out, it's much less cut-and-dry than that.

Finger pointing is predictably the biggest weapon the DNC has, and it will be their most favorite one to use till Nov 6.

[RAMSTORIA]

JolietJake's is epic, I LOL'd

you just justified my sig, thanks ;)

[Sarang01]

OMG! JolietJake's is fucking awesome.

[Ugamer_X]

you just justified my sig, thanks ;)
It's justified if you're a bit slow and dense.

Ya see, McCain is old.

That's why the joke works.

[Koggit]

I think the difference is RAM's is a little less shocking, since some right-wingers actually make the osama/obama connection. My aunt's myspace profile pic says "Obama / Osama: The only difference is a little BS" below a headshot of a similar looking Obama. I've never seen any associations with McCain as wild as the crypt keeper.

I think RAM's should involve a Hitler Obama, or perhaps something racial. Or a mix! A monkey with a hitler 'stache? It definitely needs to get more extreme in order to rival the crypt keeper.

[HotShotX]

Kucinich has a bit of a raspy little voice, but that was a pretty damn good speech. All he needed to do was change "Wake Up, America!" to "Get your head out of your ass, America!" and I would've been sold 5 seconds into it.

Instead, it took longer, but a good speech nonetheless.

~HotShotX

[JolietJake]

It's about time somebody noticed i changed sigs.:lol:

[fatherofcaitlyn]

It's about time somebody noticed i changed sigs.:lol:

Why does McCain have long hair? Is that picture 10 years old or something?

[Unickuta]

You're my friend, myke, but you're straight up being an asshole for calling being a Vegan a character quirk.

I think that for Kucinich it is. :D

[JolietJake]

Why does McCain have long hair? Is that picture 10 years old or something?
Just kill the joke why don't you...#-o

[fatherofcaitlyn]

Just kill the joke why don't you...#-o

Joke? Huh? I think McCain looks great in that picture. You can tell the last 10 years haven't been kind to him.

I'm sure his wife was making the sexy time with him more often back then, too.

[Dead of Knight]

That's a damn fine speech by Krazy Kucinich. Unfortunately it looks like he was put on during some odd hour and most people won't see the awesome. And JolietJake's sig is classic.

[SpiderLocMTGO]

The "we didn't do it" attitude sure isn't going to win me over, and I'm willing to bet it isn't going to win a lot of other independents over either. McCain != Bush, no matter how many times the Democrats say they are one and the same. Republicans have their own issues too, but instead of bringing up the terrible things the Republicans do, maybe the Democrats should bring up something positive they have done.

Oh, wait...

[thrustbucket]

The "we didn't do it" attitude sure isn't going to win me over, and I'm willing to bet it isn't going to win a lot of other independents over either. McCain != Bush, no matter how many times the Democrats say they are one and the same. Republicans have their own issues to, but instead of bringing up the terrible things the Republicans do, maybe the Democrats should bring up something positive they have done.

Oh, wait...

Not even that. For the past 2 years (maybe 4), Democrats have done little but blame Republicans. They lost before because they had very little in the way of plans, and this is more of the same.

I would just like if Democrats would lay out detailed plans for all their "fixes" across the board. That's what bothers me. Their whole shtick for nearly a decade has been "We don't really have much of a plan, but we know the Republican plan sucks!"

A lot of people often side with the guy with detailed plans, even if they aren't crazy about the plans, if the other choice is simply a guy with lots of good intentions and no plan. This is what the Dems are up against.

[fatherofcaitlyn]

Not even that. For the past 2 years (maybe 4), Democrats have done little but blame Republicans. They lost before because they had very little in the way of plans, and this is more of the same.

I would just like if Democrats would lay out detailed plans for all their "fixes" across the board. That's what bothers me. Their whole shtick for nearly a decade has been "We don't really have much of a plan, but we know the Republican plan sucks!"

A lot of people often side with the guy with detailed plans, even if they aren't crazy about the plans, if the other choice is simply a guy with lots of good intentions and no plan. This is what the Dems are up against.

The Democrats are hoping people will realize McCain is a senile upper crust jackoff with no intention of "helping" the American people without realizing Obama is a vibrant jackoff joining the upper crust with no intention of "helping" the American people.

[mykevermin]

You're my friend, myke, but you're straight up being an asshole for calling being a Vegan a character quirk.

I'm not saying *I* think it's a character quirk, but it is brought up, obnoxiously enough, as a character quirk in a negative way.

I could give a fuck, personally.

Settle down.

Not even that. For the past 2 years (maybe 4), Democrats have done little but blame Republicans. They lost before because they had very little in the way of plans, and this is more of the same.

I would just like if Democrats would lay out detailed plans for all their "fixes" across the board. That's what bothers me. Their whole shtick for nearly a decade has been "We don't really have much of a plan, but we know the Republican plan sucks!"

A lot of people often side with the guy with detailed plans, even if they aren't crazy about the plans, if the other choice is simply a guy with lots of good intentions and no plan. This is what the Dems are up against.

This entire post is pretty much nonsense. What you're telling me is that Democrats lack substance and are, by default, the masters of negative political campaigning as a result? What are they saying if they have no plans? What about their plans on health care? On rolling back tax cuts (which, under Obama's PLAN, are more beneficial to every American earning under $150,000 per year, otherwise known as 95% of the country, than McCain's plan)? On encouraging the growth of "green collar" jobs? Of eliminating so-called "free trade" agreements (that Clinton put them on the map is irrelevant, since they're inherently pro-business and anti-worker, and thus conservative in nature)?

Democrats have NOTHIN' on Republicans when it comes to nonsensical polemics, ad hominems, and assaults.

It's one thing to say Democrats plans are less preferable, to you, than Republican plans; or that their kind of talk fails to resonate with Americans than the Republican myths of individualism. But "they have no plans" is beneath someone who follows politics like you, thrust. Save that kind of talk for the nitwits who don't follow politics but like to talk as if they did.

Now, to what others have said indicting Democrats in helping perpetuate that which Kucinich rails against:

you're absolutely right.

Which, while it sickens me and my very, very left sensibilities, does more, I think, to make the Democrat party endearing to a greater number of Americans. It shows that they aren't all, like FOX News wants you to believe (since they are seemingly unable to utter the word "left" politically without prefacing it with the word "far"). There are, then, ample moderates in the Democrat party. Moderates that have character nuances, are willing to vote across the aisle. A diverse group of individuals; hell, that's what the Democrat party's always been about. Working class interests, gender-rights interests, minority interests, environmental interests, religious interests. They don't always overlap very cleanly (see the purported problems Obama has in courting white working class, typically Democrat voters). At all. See also the overblown "PUMA" molehill the media is making into a mountain.

The Democrat party is more likely, thus, to represent you and your interests than you would think. They certainly don't always represent mine (thanks for the fuckin' FISA support, Obama! Thanks for authorizing the war in Iraq, Hillary!).

But don't you WANT a party that is diverse and serves a great number of groups? One that is more moderate than good ol' ultra-liberal myke wants?

Yes you do. Of course you do. Kucinich's "WAKE UP" call was as much for his own party as it was an indictment of the GOP.

[bmulligan]

The Democrats are hoping people will realize McCain is a senile upper crust jackoff with no intention of "helping" the American people without realizing Obama is a vibrant jackoff joining the upper crust with no intention of "helping" the American people.

The real problem is that there are too many people who's #1 criteria for a candidate is who's going to "help" the people the most.

[thrustbucket]

The real problem is that there are too many people who's #1 criteria for a candidate is who's going to "help" the people the most.

Amen. The real root of the problem. I'm tempted to yet again quote the prophetic words of Alexander Fraser Tytler, even though I'm sure the regulars here are tired of my doing so:

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years.

These nations have progressed through this sequence:
from bondage to spiritual faith
from spiritual faith to great courage
from courage to liberty
from liberty to abundance
from abundance to selfishness
from selfishness to complacency
from complacency to apathy
from apathy to dependency
from dependency back to bondage.
-- Alexander Fraser Tytler (1742-1813)

The only question left, is which of the last two are we on?

Mykevermin,
I acknowledge that they have rough plans for health care and Obama has a skeletal plan for taxes (which I don't agree with), but I still stand by my statement that they rarely have a detailed plan for anything when campaigning, rarely enough solid answers to make people feel comfortable voting for them. My biggest beef with Democrats has never been their actual policy, it's that they have so very few stalwart policies, and thus are unpredictable.

[bmulligan]

...What you're telling me is that Democrats lack substance and are, by default, the masters of negative political campaigning as a result? ...

I, of course, had a long winded answer to this comment, but the word, "YES", also works.

[dmaul1114]

[I]A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury.


Good thing we live in a constitutional republic rather than a democracy.


Mykevermin,
I acknowledge that they have rough plans for health care and Obama has a skeletal plan for taxes (which I don't agree with), but I still stand by my statement that they rarely have a detailed plan for anything when campaigning, rarely enough solid answers to make people feel comfortable voting for them. My biggest beef with Democrats has never been their actual policy, it's that they have so very few stalwart policies, and thus are unpredictable.

I see this point if going by ads, debates, speeches etc. But I'd say that both parties are too vague with their plans in those.

But if one takes the time to dig deeper (i.e. read the detailed info on the candidates websites etc.) I think both McCain and Obama have fairly equally detailed plans on most issues. Who's you agree with more is a matter of opinion, but I think they both have enough details for informed voters who take the time to look them up.

But yet, I'd love to see more of the details in ads, speeches etc. from both and less partisan rhetoric and attacks.

[fatherofcaitlyn]

These nations have progressed through this sequence:
from bondage to spiritual faith
from spiritual faith to great courage
from courage to liberty
from liberty to abundance
from abundance to selfishness
from selfishness to complacency
from complacency to apathy
from apathy to dependency
from dependency back to bondage.
The only question left, is which of the last two are we on?

Only problem with the end of this cycle ...

Bondage to extinction.

Robot slaves with very limited AI can fill in for servants.

Improved brain scanning to the atomic level and protein manipulation to construct a person with whatever memories and abilities you want for the task at hand. Immortality is just the start.

There won't be much need for somebody like me in a few decades.

Ah, well, it was fun while it lasted.

[mykevermin]

But if one takes the time to dig deeper (i.e. read the detailed info on the candidates websites etc.) I think both McCain and Obama have fairly equally detailed plans on most issues. Who's you agree with more is a matter of opinion, but I think they both have enough details for informed voters who take the time to look them up.

Guys, it's "WHOSE."

Not who's. That's two I've seen in posts in the past hour.

Grammar aside, I'm mykevermin, and I approve this message.

Saying they don't have plans is akin to me saying that "Final Fantasy XIII is not coming to the Xbox 360."

It is, of course. But unless I have knowledge that it is, from going to websites like this, by myself, and gathering that information, then I'm allowed to make incorrect and baseless claims.

But don't let me tell you. As a conservative, you value individualism, hard work, and the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps and do it yourself" philosophy of life. So apply it to informing yourself of politician's plans and platforms.

Google ain't broken. The internet isn't closed for maintenance. The plans and proposals are indeed there.

I wish that ads would not be negative (but they are, lamentably, more entertaining and eye-catching when they are - besides, who gets more publicity from speaking at the DNCC? The ballbusters or the policy wonks who are talking at the podium?) - but I'm not so naive as to think that plans can be boiled down to 30-second snippets, and I'm not naive enough to think that they can be properly directed at certain times, markets, and channels so as to be effective as some sort of soft-lens-walking-down-a-dirt-road incongraphic commercial.

To sum up, you may think everybody else is a dimwit who doesn't know any better, but y'all, even bmugs, are GROWN UPS. You can find plans on your own, and have nobody but yourselves to blame for being ill informed.

In the meantime that y'all are busting the chops of "helping" society (boy howdy giving people health care makes us such fuckin' lazy-assed handout-lovin' ne'er do wells!), you seem to be "waiting for a handout" in the form of information. Tsk tsk, fellas.

[dmaul1114]

Grammar nazi! I know the difference between who's and whose--couldn't get through Journalism school as an undergrad otherwise! :D

I just make typos/brain farts with homonyms when typing fast (screw up their/there/they're and your/you're all the time too). Couple that with seldom reading over net posts and that's what you get. :D

[Koggit]

I know the difference between who's and whose--couldn't get through Journalism school as an undergrad otherwise!

I doubt the validity of this statement.

Fight!

Oh, wait, yeah, you put me on ignore for not liking Dave Mathews (http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4762530&postcount=8).

[mykevermin]

you put me on ignore for not liking Dave Mathews

On that note, I'm adding you to my friends list.

;)

[dmaul1114]

Damn, quit quoting that worthless asshole so I don't have to see his asinine posts! I put him on ignore not for disliking Dave Matthews but for being an asshole in a thread about someone's death on top of just being generally annoyed by his holier than thou attitude. Ironic for someone who said they went to community college out of high school.

As I said in that thread about Leroi Moore, he's a worthless, thoughtless, self-centered piece of shit and no one should pay him any attention.

[Koggit]

dmaul makes me feel important

[Msut77]

Amen. The real root of the problem. I'm tempted to yet again quote the prophetic words of Alexander Fraser Tytler, even though I'm sure the regulars here are tired of my doing so:

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years.

These nations have progressed through this sequence:
from bondage to spiritual faith
from spiritual faith to great courage
from courage to liberty
from liberty to abundance
from abundance to selfishness
from selfishness to complacency
from complacency to apathy
from apathy to dependency
from dependency back to bondage.
-- Alexander Fraser Tytler (1742-1813)

The only question left, is which of the last two are we on?

Probable fake citation alert.

This is what happens when you get the majority of your political views from chain emails.

[Sarang01]

Give him a break msut. He's quite self-aware like you. You two are probably more alike then you realize.

Myke then whoever dismissed Veganism as a negative thing is a cunt. Being a Vegan can make doing Organic AFFORDABLE.
Try buying Organic Dairy or Beef on a regular basis, NEVER buying it like this otherwise. It would break some's bank.
Now contrast this by buying Organic Soy beans, making your own Soy Milk, Tofu as well as Flour and other things and you see how much cheaper it is. I'd love mentioning Seitan but I haven't found a place around that sells ORGANIC Wheat Gluten flour. :-(
The one place that bites you in the ass all over is buying fresh vegetables and fruit, organic or otherwise. My suggestion is you plant your own vegetables and fruit to make this a lot easier to be affordable.

edit: For me being a Vegan is a health choice. I believe eating meat, dairy, any animal product puts more stress on my body digesting it not to mention some of the garbage that is in the non-Organic product. Look at meat. Imagine eating from a cow that has had rBGH and antibiotics added. Now let's also imagine that the grass they've eaten has ended up sprayed with Pesticides. It's also not affordable for most people to eat Organic meat and dairy as I said above.

[level1online]

can't sleep, ate too many "freedom" burgers today...

thought i'd give the speech a listen to....

ok, great speech, but he should have used The Jackson's "Can you feel it" as an outro. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF5h6ZLbbVI

[Msut77]

Give him a break msut.

No seriously, that particular bit of nonsense is from a spam email.

I have seen it a dozen times before, google it if you wish.

thrust seems to get most of his talking points via random emails and he has the self awareness of a goldfish.

[Dead of Knight]

Speaking of good speeches, anyone check out John Kerry's? I always liked him and donated a few dollars in 04 even though I couldn't vote. Really a shame he didn't win, and his speech last night was excellent. He really could have used that enthusiasm back then.

[mykevermin]

Speaking of good speeches, anyone check out John Kerry's? I always liked him and donated a few dollars in 04 even though I couldn't vote. Really a shame he didn't win, and his speech last night was excellent. He really could have used that enthusiasm back then.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/08/28/sen-kerry-blasts-mccain-lets-compare-senator-mccain-and-candidate-mccain/

"I have known and been friends with John McCain for almost 22 years, but every day now I learn something new about Candidate McCain. To those who still believe in the myth of a maverick instead of the reality of a politician, I say let’s compare Senator McCain to Candidate McCain.

Candidate McCain now supports the very wartime tax cuts that Senator McCain once called irresponsible. Candidate McCain criticizes Senator McCain’s own climate change bill. Candidate McCain says he would vote against the immigration bill that Senator McCain wrote.

Are you kidding me, folks?

Talk about being for it before you’re against it!

Let me tell you, before he ever debates Barack Obama, John McCain should finish the debate with himself.

And what’s more, Senator McCain, who once railed against the smears of Karl Rove when he was the target has morphed into Candidate McCain, who is using the same Rove tactics, the same Rove staff, the same old politics of fear and smear.

Well, not this year; not this time. The Rove-McCain tactics are old and outworn, and America will reject them in 2008."

[dmaul1114]

He really could have used that enthusiasm back then.

Yep, I had that same thought. It's a damn shame Gore and Kerry both apparently learned how to give a good speech after losing elections!

Kerry's speech was outstanding and easily my favorite of the one's last night (at least for Sen. Rockefeller on as that's when I started watching yeterday).

[Heavy Hitter]

Wait - John Kerry is blasting McCain for flip-flopping? If so, P -> K -> B.

[mykevermin]

Not sure what you mean by that, HH. Clarify.

[fatherofcaitlyn]

I think Pot calling Kettle Black.

Not sure about the inbetween symbols.

[Unickuta]

Not even that. For the past 2 years (maybe 4), Democrats have done little but blame Republicans. They lost before because they had very little in the way of plans, and this is more of the same.

I would just like if Democrats would lay out detailed plans for all their "fixes" across the board. That's what bothers me. Their whole shtick for nearly a decade has been "We don't really have much of a plan, but we know the Republican plan sucks!"

A lot of people often side with the guy with detailed plans, even if they aren't crazy about the plans, if the other choice is simply a guy with lots of good intentions and no plan. This is what the Dems are up against.

That was the dumbest post I've read today.

Did you even LISTEN to the Democratic debates? Joe Biden spent the whole time outlining his plan to divide Iraq. Hilary and Obama drew boos because they spent too much time detailing their health care plans and arguing over particulars.

And don't give me that BS about how the Dems haven't done anything, cause how can they when the Republicans have had a majority from 1994-2006? Even when the Dems pass something through Congress nowadays, Bush vetoes it, and since the Dems majority is only one in the Senate they don't have the two thirds necessary to override the veto.

EDIT: I read your follow-up posts, which clarify what you're saying more but I wrote the above based on your first post.

[Heavy Hitter]

I think Pot calling Kettle Black.

Not sure about the inbetween symbols.

Yeah, that's what it means. For Kerry to complain about anyone flip-flopping is comedic chutzpah. Kind of like Bill Clinton calling someone on the carpet for "family values" - or did that happen too?

And before anyone gets all "LOL ZOMG McCain iz a flip-flopper too! LOLZ!",

A. I know that.

B. Don't like him anyway.

[evanft]

That John Kerry speech was bad-ass.

Fucking democrats and their inability to have balls when they're running.

[mykevermin]

Yeah, that's what it means. For Kerry to complain about anyone flip-flopping is comedic chutzpah. Kind of like Bill Clinton calling someone on the carpet for "family values" - or did that happen too?

And before anyone gets all "LOL ZOMG McCain iz a flip-flopper too! LOLZ!",

A. I know that.

B. Don't like him anyway.

Good thing you watched the speech he made, since you completely got the tongue-in-cheek appall with which Kerry spoke in this case.

Or, wait, no. It appears you've obtusely overlooked Kerry's tone.

Not to mention the idiocy of a party nominating a candidate in 2008 whose cover-all-the-bases stances on attitudes make Kerry's alleged flip-flops pale in comparison.

Your faux outrage is akin to lecturing two friends, one enjoying a beer and one passed out from drinking a fifth of bourbon, about the dangers of alcohol as if they were equally indulging.

That aside, spare me your "I don't like McCain" nonsense. Your crap posts and your crap signature clearly show who you are aligned with - and that you're the kind of wimp who, when the chips are down, you'll cash in your self respect and vote for him in November.

Don't deny it. You buy into the "Obama is so ZOMG communist!" crap so much - that point alone seems to prove you're enough of an idiot to vote for McCain on your sheer lack of principle.

[Mike23]

Speaking of good speeches, anyone check out John Kerry's? I always liked him and donated a few dollars in 04 even though I couldn't vote. Really a shame he didn't win, and his speech last night was excellent. He really could have used that enthusiasm back then.

I think he had the speech of the convention. Thus far, anyway.

[dmaul1114]

Myke, I really wish you could articulate your views without resorting to the same type of personal insults and partisan rhetoric that the conservative blow hards on this forum do--just from the opposite side of the political spectrum.

You're better than that and it's much easier to debate such people if you don't resort to stooping to their levels.

[Unickuta]

Good thing you watched the speech he made, since you completely got the tongue-in-cheek appall with which Kerry spoke in this case.

Or, wait, no. It appears you've obtusely overlooked Kerry's tone.

Not to mention the idiocy of a party nominating a candidate in 2008 whose cover-all-the-bases stances on attitudes make Kerry's alleged flip-flops pale in comparison.

Your faux outrage is akin to lecturing two friends, one enjoying a beer and one passed out from drinking a fifth of bourbon, about the dangers of alcohol as if they were equally indulging.

That aside, spare me your "I don't like McCain" nonsense. Your crap posts and your crap signature clearly show who you are aligned with - and that you're the kind of wimp who, when the chips are down, you'll cash in your self respect and vote for him in November.

Don't deny it. You buy into the "Obama is so ZOMG communist!" crap so much - that point alone seems to prove you're enough of an idiot to vote for McCain on your sheer lack of principle.

:applause:

[Koggit]

resort to stooping

lol journalism degree

[The Crotch]

Myke, I really wish you could articulate your views without resorting to the same type of personal insults and partisan rhetoric that the conservative blow hards on this forum do--just from the opposite side of the political spectrum.

You're better than that and it's much easier to debate such people if you don't resort to stooping to their levels.
To be fair, he does have the fifth worst signature I've seen on this site.

EDIT: And that's coming from someone whose signature is stuck in 1998.

[Heavy Hitter]

I did watch it, excruciating as it was to do so. And I realize that it was an attempt at humor by the big guy, but as his "stuck in Iraq" humor reminds us, he's not good at it and he should lay off trying to be funny - ever.

McCain a bad nominee? Check. Can't argue with that. He's the candidate the Left and their water carriers wanted, and they got him. He's one of the easier-to-defeat Republicans that were gunning for the nomination.

Outrage? Sorry, but my mood was actually falling somewhere in the neighborhood of amused. And I'm the one that overlooks tone? One of us has a problem discerning tone, and it isn't me. You're the one constantly taking up the bully pulpit and attempting to argue with anger and belittlement. It's called a mirror, and you should try looking in one from time to time.

You can call my posts and sig "crap", and that's fine. I'm not seeking your approval on anything, and I tend to disagree with Puffa469. As far as this post of yours goes, it's strangely without the patented super-mykevermin-attitude and prose we all know and love so well. Strange.

It's no secret I do not like McCain. I've said so many times before, but it looks like I needed to say it again as one of us (again, not me) is having trouble with reading comprehension.

Look, you can name-call all you want but all it does it make you look foolish. Either you're drunk again or terribly immature. Either sober up, or grow up.

For you to make the assumption that I will vote for McCain is ridiculous. The only thing you can bank on is that I sure as hell won't vote for Obama. The only thing I've "bought into" is that I don't like his proposed policies on a good number of things. And yes, I read the proposals from his own website. Do I think a President Obama would be bad for the country? Yeah. Does that mean I'll automatically vote for McCain? Not really. I may go third (or fourth, or fifth) party, I may write in "None of these Asses", I may stay home. But you're so sure of how someone that you don't even know will act, you had better go with your gut and buy a few lotto tickets.

Good thing you watched the speech he made, since you completely got the tongue-in-cheek appall with which Kerry spoke in this case.

Or, wait, no. It appears you've obtusely overlooked Kerry's tone.

Not to mention the idiocy of a party nominating a candidate in 2008 whose cover-all-the-bases stances on attitudes make Kerry's alleged flip-flops pale in comparison.

Your faux outrage is akin to lecturing two friends, one enjoying a beer and one passed out from drinking a fifth of bourbon, about the dangers of alcohol as if they were equally indulging.

That aside, spare me your "I don't like McCain" nonsense. Your crap posts and your crap signature clearly show who you are aligned with - and that you're the kind of wimp who, when the chips are down, you'll cash in your self respect and vote for him in November.

Don't deny it. You buy into the "Obama is so ZOMG communist!" crap so much - that point alone seems to prove you're enough of an idiot to vote for McCain on your sheer lack of principle.

[Msut77]

Uh oh someone call the Whambulance, HH got called out on his idiocy.

Again.

[SpiderLocMTGO]

What idiocy? The only thing I saw was that he called Kerry out for being a hypocrite, which is more or less true in this situation. I guess those of us that didn't drink the kool-aid can see that.

[Msut77]

What idiocy? The only thing I saw was that...

Well I found your problem.

Look harder, perhaps you can look at myke's response on the matter or maybe at HH'S failtastic sig.

Unless of course you think tossing around the word commie until it is meaningless is not a sign of massive consumption of kool-aid.

[dmaul1114]

To be fair, he does have the fifth worst signature I've seen on this site.


I turned off sig display long ago on any forums I visit. There are at least 10 annoying ones for every one clever one.

And I wasn't saying HH didn't deserve to be called out, I just wish discourse on this forum could be more substantive and less personal attacks and tired rhetoric. But this is the net, and that's an impossible dream.

[Msut77]

I turned off sig display long ago on any forums I visit. There are at least 10 annoying ones for every one clever one.

And I wasn't saying HH didn't deserve to be called out, I just wish discourse on this forum could be more substantive and less personal attacks and tired rhetoric. But this is the net, and that's an impossible dream.

I concur...

Damn, quit quoting that worthless asshole so I don't have to see his asinine posts! I put him on ignore not for disliking Dave Matthews but for being an asshole in a thread about someone's death on top of just being generally annoyed by his holier than thou attitude. Ironic for someone who said they went to community college out of high school.

As I said in that thread about Leroi Moore, he's a worthless, thoughtless, self-centered piece of shit and no one should pay him any attention.

[dmaul1114]

Touche. :D

I don't expect people to be 100% composed all the time, some people are worthless and deserved to be treated as such. I have zero respect for Koggit and could never treat him respectfully so I've thrown him on ignore and won't waste my time on him in the future.

The problem with this forum that I was getting at is that we have conservative blow hards who do nothing but talk in generalities and party line rhetoric in bashing liberals, and then some liberal members respond by doing the same damn thing from the opposite side of the spectrum. Or vice versa when the thread is started by a liberal posting the same type of nonsense.

Thus threads here are no better than the talking head shows like the O'reilly Factor or Scarborough Country in that all their is to read is the same, partisan rhetoric, generalizations and insults over and over and over again.

And its frustrating as people like myke and thrust have shown in more level headed posts that they're better than that and can discuss issues in a constructive and intelligent manner. Yet to often they take the easy route and fall back on rhetoric and insults.

But that's all I say on the topic and I'll just go back to reading and posting in Vs. sporadically as it's really just not woth my attention 95% of the time.

[Msut77]

The problem with this forum that I was getting at is that we have conservative blow hards who do nothing but talk in generalities and party line rhetoric in bashing liberals, and then some liberal members respond by doing the same damn thing from the opposite side of the spectrum.

Thrust for example much like HH spends most of his time calling well the overwhelming majority of this country commies, railing against "Liberals" that are by and large figments of right wing fantasies. Mostly the cons here spend their time pretending they never heard of Bush or frankly what has been passing as conservative policy for a generation.

So yeah you lost me when you said a pox on both there houses since I do not see any liberals here spewing for example Fascist at cons every day and then running away when called on it.

[dmaul1114]

Oh I think one side is clearly worse in this aspect than the other, I'm just saying the way to fight it isn't with rhetoric and insults, but with either well thought out posts or simply ignoring stupid posts that don't warrant a response.

The occasional outburst is fine, we all have tempers and can only take so much before lashing out. But I'd rather fight cries of "commie" with articulate responses, or simply ignore them until these attention whore blowhards with nothing of substance to say quit posting when they don't get the responses they crave from their flamebait posts.

[Msut77]

Oh I think one side is clearly worse in this aspect than the other, I'm just saying the way to fight it isn't with rhetoric and insults, but with either well thought out posts or simply ignoring stupid posts that don't warrant a response.

The occasional outburst is fine, we all have tempers and can only take so much before lashing out. But I'd rather fight cries of "commie" with articulate responses, or simply ignore them until these attention whore blowhards with nothing of substance to say quit posting when they don't get the responses they crave from their flamebait posts.

Good luck with that.

[dmaul1114]

Obama made my point much more eloquently than I ever could in his speech tonight.


But what I will not do is suggest that the senator takes his positions for political purposes. Because one of the things that we have to change in our politics is the idea that people cannot disagree without challenging each other's character and each other's patriotism.

The times are too serious, the stakes are too high for this same partisan playbook. So let us agree that patriotism has no party. I love this country, and so do you, and so does John McCain. The men and women who serve in our battlefields may be Democrats and Republicans and independents, but they have fought together and bled together and some died together under the same proud flag. They have not served a Red America or a Blue America -- they have served the United States of America.

So I've got news for you, John McCain. We all put our country first.

America, our work will not be easy. The challenges we face require tough choices, and Democrats as well as Republicans will need to cast off the worn-out ideas and politics of the past. For part of what has been lost these past eight years can't just be measured by lost wages or bigger trade deficits. What has also been lost is our sense of common purpose. That's what we have to restore.

We may not agree on abortion, but surely we can agree on reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies in this country. The reality of gun ownership may be different for hunters in rural Ohio than they are for those plagued by gang-violence in Cleveland, but don't tell me we can't uphold the Second Amendment while keeping AK-47s out of the hands of criminals. I know there are differences on same-sex marriage, but surely we can agree that our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters deserve to visit the person they love in the hospital and to live lives free of discrimination. You know, passions may fly on immigration, but I don't know anyone who benefits when a mother is separated from her infant child or an employer undercuts American wages by hiring illegal workers. But this, too, is part of America's promise -- the promise of a democracy where we can find the strength and grace to bridge divides and unite in common effort.

I know there are those who dismiss such beliefs as happy talk. They claim that our insistence on something larger, something firmer and more honest in our public life is just a Trojan Horse for higher taxes and the abandonment of traditional values. And that's to be expected. Because if you don't have any fresh ideas, then you use stale tactics to scare voters. If you don't have a record to run on, then you paint your opponent as someone people should run from.


Essentially people on both sides of the spectrum need to drop the blatant, blind, sheepish adherence to partisan issue, dig down deep and actually think about the nuances of issues rather than seeing them as black and white along long defined and entrenched party lines. And they need to come to the table (or forum in this case) and discuss them intelligently without party rhetoric and insults, personal attacks and general assholish attitudes towards every topic of debate and everyone with an opposing viewpoint.

While many will no doubt continue to post rhetoric and flamebait, responding in kind or with personal attacks is just giving them what they want. Attention and to see threads on topics that they disagree with derailed.

I know this will fall largely on deaf ears as it's preaching to the choir of those who give a shit, and will just be ignored by attention whores on both sides who come only to troll partisan bullshit and add have no intent of adding anything of substance.

But hey, change can't happen if no one tries!

[SpiderLocMTGO]

If you don't have a record to run on, then you paint your opponent as someone people should run from.

Doesn't Obama try to promote the McSame idea? Sure, I agree that both of them should stop being douches, but Obama's compliments and "let's be friends" message from his speeches fly out the window when it is advertisement time. He resorts to painting McCain == Bush, when we all know it isn't true. Sure, they share some ideas, but Obama shares some plans with communists, but that doesn't mean Obama == Marx, so to speak.

For some reason neither candidate can win if he just acts like himself, but both of them have stepped up and acted like idiots. McCain has a pretty good conservative issues with his "maverick" streak, and Obama is a liberal guy. The problem is that they need independent voters, and neither of them is going to secure a whole lot by being himself, hence the douchebaggery.

I may vote for Obama and "hope" for the best in November, but I won't be happy about it. I just hope that once this little show is behind us that whoever is elected mans up and actually does something.

[Thomas96]

If you don't have a record to run on, then you paint your opponent as someone people should run from.

Doesn't Obama try to promote the McSame idea? Sure, I agree that both of them should stop being douches, but Obama's compliments and "let's be friends" message from his speeches fly out the window when it is advertisement time. He resorts to painting McCain == Bush, when we all know it isn't true. Sure, they share some ideas, but Obama shares some plans with communists, but that doesn't mean Obama == Marx, so to speak.

For some reason neither candidate can win if he just acts like himself, but both of them have stepped up and acted like idiots. McCain has a pretty good conservative issues with his "maverick" streak, and Obama is a liberal guy. The problem is that they need independent voters, and neither of them is going to secure a whole lot by being himself, hence the douchebaggery.

I may vote for Obama and "hope" for the best in November, but I won't be happy about it. I just hope that once this little show is behind us that whoever is elected mans up and actually does something.

Obama has been attacked for being too popular, been attacked via preacher, via wife, via flag pin, via experience, via work history. I want to if McCain is going to put his planned policies out on the table like Obama did tonight.

[Koggit]

Either you're using the word 'via' wrong or I underestimated the McCain campaign...

[dmaul1114]

If you don't have a record to run on, then you paint your opponent as someone people should run from.

Doesn't Obama try to promote the McSame idea? .

I think what Obama is talking about it the personal attacks, calling him a celebrity, not being patriotic because he stopped wearing the flag pin for a while, and all the other non-sense that Thomas already listed.

By saying McCain has supported Bush's policies 90% of the time, he's attacking McCain on the issues. Not attacking McCain's character etc. That's the stuff that bothers me.

I have no problems with ads attacking McCain for voting with Bush, thinking the economy is strong, for his misguided continuing support for the Iraq war etc. etc.

That is how you should campaign. Attack the other persons positions and show how your's are better. Keep the petty, personal stuff out of it.

[level1online]

Please go to http://kucinich.us (http://kucinich.us/) and sign the petition. Thanks.

[fatherofcaitlyn]

Please go to http://kucinich.us (http://kucinich.us/) and sign the petition. Thanks.

Like I'm going to put my name on a government list.

Come on, level1, you're smarter than that.

Besides, Bush can be investigated in less than 3 months.

[level1online]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfR1g9q75KM