Community Feedback Poll - Game Piracy

[SuxoR]

Jist is in qoute

[Rocko]

I think the idea of banning early reviews is rather ridiculous, and putting a piracy context where it is not warranted.

So, simply put, no, early reviews of games should not be banned because, here, there's a chance they might possibly be pirated games! It's already escalated from "You can talk about piracy, just not give any specific links or details" to "If it can possibly be illegal, we will delete it just in case" (see the PSP forum and the OTT), though, so I'm sure early reviews will be banned promptly.

[benjamouth]

Also, borroring and renting is legitimate, it can act as a trial for a game before people commit to buy. It helps to determine if someone wants a game, sure there are those people out there that just mooch off of their friends, but at least the game was purchased in legal means. I believe that if there where restrictions on renting and borrowing, it would only create a bigger piracy problem.

It is legitimate, but at the end of the day renting/buying used has exactly the same effect as pirating stuff.

I don't pirate games, music or movies, but I'm amazed the moral high ground some people on this board take on the issue of piracy. No-one seems to be bothered that buying used games from Gamestop is as bad as pirating, based on a strictly "effect on the videogames industry" POV.

Admittedly you're not stealing the game yourself, but how many games that GS sells have been stolen by someone else? You're not exactly part of the solution if you're buying used.

[zewone]

I think it should be frowned upon, I myself (even Cheapy) watch movies that are technically pirated, and I'm sure we all download music.

Only a few people can say they never have done the above, so if were gonna do this to another medium it's hypocritical to not do it to this one, if you really cared about the "industry" you shouldn't do it to others.

Cheapy should label people who do pirate games "Pirate" or something so people know not to read it or support their blog/review

This way we have a choice, just like the one to pirate

None of this makes any sense.

[SuxoR]

None of this makes any sense.

People pirate stuff all the time

Why not games...it's not that bad

[RollingSkull]

This premise is insipid. Brand folks with a SCARLET P just so you can feel good about yourself in your rush to grab the moral high ground. Make people the subject of a trial where the burden of proof of their innocence falls upon them. Just institute "Don't ask, don't tell." You have no way of proving who is a pirate if they don't admit themselves AS a pirate. Anything else is witch hunts by a bunch of self-righteous jackasses who want to foist their peculiar brand of morality on others.

[HeartsAlive]

I don't think it would be good for the sites reputation if it were to be labeled as the place where we find it "Okay to pirate stuff."

[DesertEagleXIX]

As someone who works diligently to maintain relationships with companies to get review copies, I found it bothersome that people can just pirate the game and post their impressions. I've even been contacted by people who after reading a review on my website, email me asking, "Dood, where did you download XYZ from?"

That being said, I believe this survey might be moot because of enforcement issues. How will a CAG mod be able to know if a review can from a legit or elicit means? I'd hate to see some hardworking writer get his review pulled because some overzealous person THINKS he may have obtained stolen code.

[Rocko]

I don't think it would be good for the sites reputation if it were to be labeled as the place where we find it "Okay to pirate stuff."

What exactly does this have to do with the topic at hand?

This is not a topic about advocating piracy and whether piracy should be allowed or not- it's about posting early game reviews.

No one posts a game review and says "Man, my pirated copy of Pokemon Platinum sure is fun! Pirate yours today!" If a review of a fame is posted before it's out, people can draw their own conclusions about how the person is playing the game. Unfortunately it looks like Cheapy not only drew his conclusion for every person on the site, but he provided it in the topic title/description and has influenced a lot of replies to be about the topic of pirating games, not the topic of early review posting, tainting the whole process of having a poll by mentioning piracy outright.

[l337m4573rpyr0]

This premise is insipid. Brand folks with a SCARLET P just so you can feel good about yourself in your rush to grab the moral high ground. Make people the subject of a trial where the burden of proof of their innocence falls upon them. Just institute "Don't ask, don't tell." You have no way of proving who is a pirate if they don't admit themselves AS a pirate. Anything else is witch hunts by a bunch of self-righteous jackasses who want to foist their peculiar brand of morality on others.

QFT.

[oxidative]

Yes. Piracy is illegal, but reporting your impressions of a pirated game isn't. Simple as that.

I tend to agree with this. I do not condone piracy but do not see the reason to expressly forbidden someone talking about a pre-release game. This would be no different than talking about an LSD trip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyage_34:_The_Complete_Trip). LSD is not legal but talking about it is just fine.

I think it's very obvious to draw the line at promoting piracy.

[Hybrid5006]

Yes, but they gotta buy at least 1 copy of it when it comes out. (at full retail price) , no matter how much it sucks

[corrosivefrost]

I just mentioned that to prove that members of this community are more than willing to pay full price for a game. The suggestion that no one here will pay full price for a game is insane. There are threads about the $149.99 lancer bundle, the $79.99 Resistance 2 Special Edition, and the $89.99 Metal Gear Limited Edition. People love certain franchises and are willing to pay. Corrosivefrost is niave enought to believe otherwise. To have a $149.99 lancer be your number one purchase off of a cheapass website only proves this, why wasn't a cheaper game number one for a website that loves cheap games? It's because people love franchises and cheapassgamer was one of the first to post the deal do to the community.



First off, you obviousley do not work in retail. All games are not street dated like Movies and Music. If you go to Gamestop to pick up Dragon Quest IV for the DS, they will most likely get the game the day after it ships. For other retailers such as Target, Wal Mart, and K-Mart they will receive it at there Distribution Centers the day after it ships. After they get it at the DC's it takes time for them to process it and get it on a trailer to their stores. For Street Dated items, everyone usually has the title in store about a week before the street date with big stickers that say "DO NOT SELL UNTIL OCT 17, 2008. Gamestop always brags about being the first to get the game, that is because they get the games shipped straight to the stores. Only big releases have a Street Date, not every game. Your not going to see a Target or Wal Mart employee turn you down if your trying to buy Cooking Mama 2 for the Wii when it comes out.

Also, borroring and renting is legitimate, it can act as a trial for a game before people commit to buy. It helps to determine if someone wants a game, sure there are those people out there that just mooch off of their friends, but at least the game was purchased in legal means. I believe that if there where restrictions on renting and borrowing, it would only create a bigger piracy problem.

yeah, cause borrowing and renting ensure you don't complete the game and say "I don't need to buy it now." I know I bought assassin's creed after I played through my friends copy. oh wait. I didn't.

and just cause a person is a sucker to a franchise doesn't mean they're going to wait for their favorite franchise to be cheap to buy it. I bought MGS4 LE (which wasn't worth it, so I sold it), day one. But it's the only purchase I've made in the last 5 years on day one. does that mean i'm running out and paying $150 for gears 2 lancer bundle or $80 for Resistance 2? Hell no. And at least 2, if not 3, of the top 5 "cheapass" preorders will have their fair share of cancellations. Fable 2? Got the pub games code... not interested anymore. Thanks. CoD5 for $20? Yes please (it'll get cancelled anyway). Free Banjo Kazooie with $40 Banjo Kazooie 3? Yup. But people who were only interested in the free code for BK will probably cancel since the code comes after the game ships.

and I'm familiar with retail. I worked at an EB before they merged with GS.

[GuilewasNK]

I would say no. Titan Quest was a great example of why this creates problems. People were using cracked copies of the game, which they thought was indicative of the final product. It turns out that the game was crashing because of an anti-piracy check that ran during the first dungeon. The game garnered a reputation of being buggy and glitchy before release. See the attached post by the THQ CEO on the quartertothree forums.

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=42663

You also might want to think about the relationships you have with the developers Cheapy. As the site grows your exposure and interaction with the developement community will grow along with it. We already know developers listen to the Cagcast, and we've seen you appearing on Bloomberg, etc. Allowing the posting of impressions based on pirated software will give you a reputation that is guilty by association. Sure, most posts would fly under the radar, but all it could take is one accusation by a developer that names a post on this site. Maybe most users don't care about that, or see it as insignificant. I think it better serves the community for your site to be respected in the industry, such that the CAG Community has its voice heard (the power of gaming communities) when it comes to getting the most out of our gaming dollar, rather than getting some early impressions of a game.

I'm not sure why this is even a question since the CAG forum discourages/prohibits any warez or otherwise illegal discussions, but of course I had to vote no.

I voted NO.

There's no reason for CAG to draw a target around itself.

That's all that needs to be said.

[Loonknight]

I'm voting no on Pirated software, if of course they get an early copy by legitimate means then the reviewer should be able to state something about the game.

[ratzombie]

They already pirated it, preventing them from writing about it isn't going to stop piracy.

At least if you allow it, we can get impressions of games well before other reviews and base our purchasing decisions accordingly.

[jeremywoods]

Pirating games goes beyond being a cheap-ass. So let's not encourage that.

lol

[Mr_hockey66]

well just cause someone posts about a game early dosn't mean in was piracy. They could work for blockbuster. When my sister in law was a manager she recieved games in store about a week before they came out. They have to open them and get them ready for sell in the blockbuster cases. We got to play the games for a week until the day they came out. So we could and did review games before they " came" out. That may be the case for some of these reviews. Unless you seen them or they admited to piracy you can't really blame them for it. Innocent till proven guilty.

[corrosivefrost]

I'm voting no on Pirated software, if of course they get an early copy by legitimate means then the reviewer should be able to state something about the game.

Either you worded this ... so that it is unclear... or you didn't check the question before responding, only the thread title. :-k

[donkeydrop]

No; they should not get any credit or recognition for stealing the game. I suggest that as at some other sites, if you post impressions of a game before release dates you should be required to provide a photo of a legit copy of the game + receipt.

[APreciousDragon]

If you allow it to be posted, you reward piracy. Simple as that. A.) They are doing it to try to bolster sympathy for their shameful practice.
B.) They have already stated their position on whether someone should buy it because they DIDN'T see fit to buy it.
C.) Their opinion holds no more weight than any other review a CAG could use to determine their purchases.


In short: pirates suck, and should be driven out like filthy beasts.

Agreed!


No; they should not get any credit or recognition for stealing the game. I suggest that as at some other sites, if you post impressions of a game before release dates you should be required to provide a photo of a legit copy of the game + receipt.

A great way for those with legit copies they obtained early to still get the credit! :D

[DarthPuma]

I think it should be faced with a "Don't ask, don't tell policy." As long as they aren't openly admitting to having pirated, no action should be taken against it, because just because they got it early doesn't mean it's pirated.

As an example, let's say someone got spore early last week and posted some impressions. As long as he never said, "Yeah, I totally torrented this shit" or something to that extent no action should be taken against it.

Did that make sense? My words got kind of jumbled

[WormFOODx]

Well its a dual edged sword. Without asking someone to provide a picture of their box with reciept you can't verify if they received the game legally. If you work at a game store you could reasonably play the game more than a week before it comes out. A store could break street dates.

The other side. Are you promoting piracy? Are you applauding it? I for one am tired of debating the legitimacy of gaming review sites. How do you know they are not being paid off? I would love a more "working's man" review of a game so long as they do not post any spoilers etc.

I guess I would say yes, because I for one hate buying crappy games. Saying no won't stop them from doing what they are doing. It only helps me by reading the review.

[DesertEagleXIX]

Well its a dual edged sword. Without asking someone to provide a picture of their box with reciept you can't verify if they received the game legally.

Even if you required the box and receipt there could be problems; what about DLC? It is increasingly becoming a more standardized way to distribute software.

[Leggo]

What exactly does this have to do with the topic at hand?

This is not a topic about advocating piracy and whether piracy should be allowed or not- it's about posting early game reviews.

No one posts a game review and says "Man, my pirated copy of Pokemon Platinum sure is fun! Pirate yours today!" If a review of a fame is posted before it's out, people can draw their own conclusions about how the person is playing the game. Unfortunately it looks like Cheapy not only drew his conclusion for every person on the site, but he provided it in the topic title/description and has influenced a lot of replies to be about the topic of pirating games, not the topic of early review posting, tainting the whole process of having a poll by mentioning piracy outright.



Actually, it almost is a topic about advocating piracy. It's on the front page, which is absolutely horrible. It implies, "Okay, we pirate things, but should we be highlighting reviews of these things or keep it to the shadows?"

This shouldn't be front page news, even asking it makes the site look shady and that it is a pandemic problem here.

Ultimately, what does it even matter? An informed opinion is an informed opinion, and the method the writer obtained the game has nearly 0% chance of influencing the method the reader planned on getting the game in the first place (the one exception: Reviews that point out unnecessary levels of DRM would turn a lot of people off to buying it.)

[Trakan]

Guys, forget all of this "Was it pirated? Was it bought early at a store? Can you provide a receipt and picture for proof?" He's not asking about any of that.

He's saying to assume that people did pirate a game. Can that person discuss the game before its release date on CAG? Just discussion. Not necessarily reviews, not direct links or how to's. Piracy itself wouldn't even be mentioned in the posts.

Let's say I got Gears 2 early. Would me writing up my thoughts on the game or initial impressions before the game was out be a big deal? That's what Cheapy is asking.

[lucao]

As long as the they state that it was a early or in progress version. Because being an unproved and unkown copy quality and bugs may appear that are not included in retail version.

[DesertEagleXIX]

Can that person discuss the game before its release date on CAG? Just discussion. Not necessarily reviews, not direct links or how to's. Piracy itself wouldn't even be mentioned in the posts.

So let me get this right; Cheapy wants to know if people should be able to discuss, not review, games that have yet to be released. Isn't that the purpose of the internets? ;)

Perhaps the problem is the ambiguity of the original question. When ever party B has to step in and say, "No, Part A, meant THIS", there's a problem.

As far as piracy, I've heard people on the Destuctoid podcast and Retronauts talk about playing older 'roms'. When people in the industry are doing it, the average game just might justify it. And, in all fairness, my site has an article on DS emulation, so I'm guilty as the next guy.

[Cleaner7]

No. Piracy hurts the industry and by no means should it ever be encouraged in any way, shape, or form on this site. There are plenty of places online to find reviews for games prior to their release, so reviews from someone pirating software does no service to anyone.

I do, however, agree with darthbudge's point that it can be difficult to tell whether a game has been pirated if the reviewer doesn't come right out and admit it. Stores do break street dates.

:applause: Well stated. I agree with this person.

[crystalklear64]

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/8697/completelyvalidarguemenzx2.jpg
This is why we can't trust those darn pirate's reviews!

[ramatut4001]

Don't support it, but don't delve too deep.

[chronojin]

If they havent blatently said they got said game thru pirated methods then who are we to assume

[Jobbercho]

Should be allowed unless this site is banning ALL pre-release info including screens, dates, etc.
It's just as easy to assume that somebody managed to buy the game early as it is to assume that they pirated it so why are you trying so hard to believe they did the latter? Clearly you do not like the individuals you think are pirating games and are trying to stop it with this faux democratic approach.

[shipwreck]

Should be allowed unless this site is banning ALL pre-release info including screens, dates, etc.

Yes, we will ban all release dates, screens, etc... immediately. C'mon now, this doesn't even make sense.

It's just as easy to assume that somebody managed to buy the game early as it is to assume that they pirated it so why are you trying so hard to believe they did the latter?

People don't hide piracy well. It's not that hard to tell. Maybe we can't prove it, but we really wouldn't need to in regards to how things are handled on CAG.

Clearly you do not like the individuals you think are pirating games and are trying to stop it with this faux democratic approach.

This assumption couldn't be further from the truth.

Cheapy's just trying to get the communities take on the situation. People can certainly keep bringing up "what if" scenarios about why or why not we shouldn't act when we have suspicion though. It's been a humorous thread to read.

[kPod]

Looks like Cheapy has got a choice here:

Allow it, and support the users.

Disallow it, and support his wallet and the site's reputation.

I said yes; there is no reason to stop people posting opinion on games that are not available yet. I value other people's opinions regardless of how they got the source. I rent to review, but I give the same amount to the developer as a pirate does: Sweet F'A.

Don't Ask, Don't Tell will work just fine. This site is called CheapAssGamer. Granted, there is nothing cheaper than pirating (unless you get fined), but a site that is devoted to getting as much goodness out of your gaming dollar/pound as possible should allow people to make a decision on a game based on an opinion that is ahead of the release date, to stretch that gaming money.

Sorry if I got on my high horse a little bit there, but I read the topic and people are siding with either the site, or it's users. I'm with the users.

[scott123456]

Keep CAG honest and don't allow it.

[Mr.Swagga]

I dont see what the problem is it isnt like your allowing them to sell pirated games. So people who scream "NO BECAUSE PIRATED GAMES ARE ILLEGAL." Are just plain goofy. What does it hurt if someone gives a review?

Keep CAG honest and don't allow it.

We share coupons how honest are we really? lol

[shipwreck]

Sorry if I got on my high horse a little bit there, but I read the topic and people are siding with either the site, or it's users. I'm with the users.

It's not the site versus the users, it's a poll to see what the users want.

[kPod]

It's not the site versus the users, it's a poll to see what the users want.Sorry, I meant it in the sense of being in the best interests of. Whether it's in the best interests of the users of the site, or in the best interests of the site itself, it's revenue and reputation.

[shipwreck]

Sorry, I meant it in the sense of being in the best interests of. Whether it's in the best interests of the users of the site, or in the best interests of the site itself, it's revenue and reputation.

Okay, I see now.

I don't want to put words into Cheapy's mouth here, but I'm going to because I think I know where he is coming from on this: this poll has very, very little to do with the sites revenue and reputation and everything to do with doing what the community wants.

[Droogs]

I voted yes. Although, if a reviewer/previewer specifically stated they pirated it I would say no.

But honestly, if someone is stupid enough to write it in a way that we know they pirated it, the review/preview will more than likely not be well written and will not get my attention.

[Koggit]

I'm amazed at the responses here... and I can't help but LOL at 'when you let someone talk about a game, the pirates win' wtf kind of bs is that.


I think if someone mentions in their review that they pirated it, that part should be edited out by a mod. There's no reason for people to mention how they got the game in their review. But to say people can't review games before release... that's pretty bogus and only further harms the developer. The pirates will pirate regardless, and them talking about the game doesn't help them, it only helps the game's creators/publisher.

[Kayden]

Should reviews of pirated material be allowed? Yes. Should tutorials on how to pirate be listed? No.

If you're going remove reviews of pirated material you better remove all the two week early store ads. No more talks of exploiting sales like the CC sale where you could get a $60 game for $.01. There's already a stigma about buying games on sale and returning them for full retail, but it's not officially against the rules. No more promoting printing off 40 copies of $5 off BB coupons. No more swapping oink/demoniod/etc invites. No more talking about watching anime/mangas in the US the day after it came out in Japan.

And, Cheapy, I'm sure there is atleast one legal way to watch BSG. Wait like a good boy for the DVD release and then buy it. The same thing someone in the US would have to do (legally) if they missed the airing on TV.

It isn't a black and white issue and you're no more a victim than a pirate is a worthless sleeze. I'd be willing to bet at least 99.9% of the active members of this site have done something that wasn't totally legit and no one has any right to take the moral high ground. Quite simply, if you ban discussion of one facet of piracy, you best block the rest, which would be a healthy chunk of the discourse on this board.

[Trakan]

Perhaps the problem is the ambiguity of the original question. When ever party B has to step in and say, "No, Part A, meant THIS", there's a problem.

I don't think he could have worded it any better. I understand the question perfectly, but it seems like a lot of people are misinterpreting it.

I am also in agreement with what shipwreck said. Cheapy wants to know what the community thinks.

[crystalklear64]

Okay, I see now.

I don't want to put words into Cheapy's mouth here, but I'm going to because I think I know where he is coming from on this: this poll has very, very little to do with the sites revenue and reputation and everything to do with doing what the community wants.
Agree with this. I think it is entirely a community based effort, I'm just concerned that some people either don't understand what the poll is asking, or need stronger evidence to back themselves up.

Then again, I'm obviously of the allow it mindset, but I really was hoping to see an argument that I could say, "hey ok, I guess thats reasonable, I could consider not allowing pirate reviews for reason X" you know at least something to work on.

But so far the best I've seen is the "pirated versions may be buggy so a disclaimer should be made" argument, and even that is pretty iffy.

In most other cases, I don't even see how a review and if the game was pirated are even related.

[Davestation]

yeah, cause borrowing and renting ensure you don't complete the game and say "I don't need to buy it now." I know I bought assassin's creed after I played through my friends copy. oh wait. I didn't.

and just cause a person is a sucker to a franchise doesn't mean they're going to wait for their favorite franchise to be cheap to buy it. I bought MGS4 LE (which wasn't worth it, so I sold it), day one. But it's the only purchase I've made in the last 5 years on day one. does that mean i'm running out and paying $150 for gears 2 lancer bundle or $80 for Resistance 2? Hell no. And at least 2, if not 3, of the top 5 "cheapass" preorders will have their fair share of cancellations. Fable 2? Got the pub games code... not interested anymore. Thanks. CoD5 for $20? Yes please (it'll get cancelled anyway). Free Banjo Kazooie with $40 Banjo Kazooie 3? Yup. But people who were only interested in the free code for BK will probably cancel since the code comes after the game ships.

and I'm familiar with retail. I worked at an EB before they merged with GS.

See, even you admit that you will pay full price for a game. You also have to keep in mind, once somebody purchases a game it is there property. They can sell it, loan it out, even throw it away. That is there very own physical copy. What they can not do, is take the data off of the disc and make multiple copies of that data to distribute it.

Let's use an instance to your logic here. Let's say that you are driving down the Interstate and you get a flat tire. You look in your trunk and realize that you do not have a tire iron. So you call your buddy and he brings one for you to use. Your buddy paid for it at an auto shop and he is now bringing it to you to use. Under your same logic, that should not be the case. What needs to be done is, you need to go out and buy your own tire iron and not use your buddies. After all, you did not pay for the tire iron right?

After all, its not like the tire iron company is going to see any more profit by allowing your friend to loan you his tool. So, selling used things is not just in the video game industry. You have Pawn Shops, Used Book Stores, and even used tool stores. This all happens because people sell what they do not want anymore to make a quick buck.

[Shady3011]

I say don't allow it. You loosen the grip on this and you'll likely start a slippery slope of loosening other types of gray area matters.

Maybe I'm looking out for this site as a whole, but disappointing a few is better than running into legal troubles later.

[thorbahn3]

Again with the Piracy. This benefits no one, except the dude who stole the game.

[swerv]

this whole idea is a mess

+1

[XTommyDonX]

As long as they're not being pirated again or available for download illegaly through CAG, then impressions are fine. What's the harm of telling how the game is being that the illegal downloading is already completed.

[jimijumper]

No. I would ignore any review of a pirated game anyways.

[Undead98]

Who is to say the "early" release of the game is in fact the shipping version? Its absolutely ridiculous to give a review on something that may not be the final product thus possibly corrupting the initial experience of a potential buyer. Until you have the copy in your hand from a store, I don't trust any content that is experienced, period.

[crystalklear64]

Who is to say the "early" release of the game is in fact the shipping version? Its absolutely ridiculous to give a review on something that may not be the final product thus possibly corrupting the initial experience of a potential buyer. Until you have the copy in your hand from a store, I don't trust any content that is experienced, period.
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/8697/completelyvalidarguemenzx2.jpg

[Rocko]

I say don't allow it. You loosen the grip on this and you'll likely start a slippery slope of loosening other types of gray area matters.

Loosen? Seriously?

[DesertEagleXIX]

I don't think he could have worded it any better. I understand the question perfectly, but it seems like a lot of people are misinterpreting it.


I don't mean to be a dick Traken, but from a communication standpoint, if you put a message out and 'a lot' of people are misinterpreting it, then there's a problem. Either:

A) The receivers aren't bright enough to understand the concept, or

B) The sender didn't encode the message properly.

The discussion seems to be centered on the enforcement of the policy; not so much the policy itself. By not addressing anything about how this policy will be enforced, your opening yourself up to a wormhole of ambiguity.

People need a context. Sure, you could ask, "is lying bad", and you'll receive a myriad of responses, some in support, some against. In order for the discussion to be worthwhile, you need to limit the boundaries, in other word, be VERY specific.

Ok, rant off- Now I need to get back to working on my "Thrill Kill" review ;)

[pimpinc333]

I don't mean to be a dick Traken, but from a communication standpoint, if you put a message out and 'a lot' of people are misinterpreting it, then there's a problem. Either:

A) The receivers aren't bright enough to understand the concept, or

B) The sender didn't encode the message properly.

The discussion seems to be centered on the enforcement of the policy; not so much the policy itself. By not addressing anything about how this policy will be enforced, your opening yourself up to a wormhole of ambiguity.

People need a context. Sure, you could ask, "is lying bad", and you'll receive a myriad of responses, some in support, some against. In order for the discussion to be worthwhile, you need to limit the boundaries, in other word, be VERY specific.

Ok, rant off- Now I need to get back to working on my "Thrill Kill" review ;)

I'm going with A. Many Many People are going way off topic on this one. It's a simple question.

[corrosivefrost]

I don't mean to be a dick Traken, but from a communication standpoint, if you put a message out and 'a lot' of people are misinterpreting it, then there's a problem. Either:

A) The receivers aren't bright enough to understand the concept, or

B) The sender didn't encode the message properly.

The discussion seems to be centered on the enforcement of the policy; not so much the policy itself. By not addressing anything about how this policy will be enforced, your opening yourself up to a wormhole of ambiguity.

People need a context. Sure, you could ask, "is lying bad", and you'll receive a myriad of responses, some in support, some against. In order for the discussion to be worthwhile, you need to limit the boundaries, in other word, be VERY specific.

Ok, rant off- Now I need to get back to working on my "Thrill Kill" review ;)

A little of column (b) and a lot of column (a), in this case.

[x2k-one]

yes

is not illegal to have piracy games everywere

[Nibi]

I called this when CAG 2.0 was about to launch, Cheapy even addressed it on the CAGCast. Giving pirates a platform / reinforcement only nurtures the piracy.

[pimpinc333]

yes

is not illegal to have piracy games everywere

I'm not even sure what this means......

[bigdaddybruce44]

Piracy should not be promoted or encouraged at all.

[aknowlesjr]

don't censor!!!!!!! this is what the internet is about.

[Gurn13]

No, piracy sucks.

[goldvenom69]

Man I said allow it! This is becoming like the official Xbox forum man I hate them.

[Lieutenant Dan]

I accidentally voted for no, so add one to yes. Darn wireless mouseses.

[Demontooth]

No.

[corrosivefrost]

Piracy should not be promoted or encouraged at all.

And where in this thread do you get the idea that cheapyd and cag will be sponsoring piracy? Do you think they're going to give away a stack of R4s on the next CAGcast? WTF?

[opportunity777]

And where in this thread do you get the idea that cheapyd and cag will be sponsoring piracy? Do you think they're going to give away a stack of R4s on the next CAGcast? WTF?

A lot of people in this thread aren't even discussing the relevant issue, so I don't think you should be too surprised from the shallow responses.

The issue is not about actual piracy. The relevant issue is whether the reviewers will be objective or not, which is also a problem for professional review sites. An argument or poll about the act of pirating should be in a different thread. Unfortunately, Cheapy did not help facilitate the discussion to be on topic.

In the future, I think if Cheapy wants to conduct another poll, then he should wait for 3 to 7 days before allowing people to vote. That way, both sides will have time to provide real evidence and concise arguments. This is just a shithouse for discussion.

[corrosivefrost]

A lot of people in this thread aren't even discussing the relevant issue, so I don't think you should be too surprised from the shallow responses.

In the future, I think if Cheapy wants to conduct another poll, then he should wait for 3 to 7 days before allowing people to vote. That way, both sides will have time to provide real evidence and concise arguments. This is just a shithouse for discussion.

Indeed. I'm just having fun pointing out the "A" types. ;)

[bigdaddybruce44]

And where in this thread do you get the idea that cheapyd and cag will be sponsoring piracy? Do you think they're going to give away a stack of R4s on the next CAGcast? WTF?

Wow, a bit touchy, maybe? People shouldn't be giving out reviews and impressions of games that were STOLEN. It's that simple. A site allowing such things to be posted are promoting it. See, it's called a line of thought. Dig it.

[opportunity777]

Wow, a bit touchy, maybe? People shouldn't be giving out reviews and impressions of games that were STOLEN. It's that simple. A site allowing such things to be posted are promoting it. See, it's called a line of thought. Dig it.

I'm singling you out because I'm too lazy to go back to other pages. This is exactly why the thead is a trap.

I like how people are also using "slippery slope." You can't just call it.

WHY does posting an early review promote piracy? HOW do you know whether a title was obtained legally or illegally? HOW would you be able to prove it?

Just because you type it doesn't make it true.

[pimpinc333]

Wow, a bit touchy, maybe? People shouldn't be giving out reviews and impressions of games that were STOLEN. It's that simple. A site allowing such things to be posted are promoting it. See, it's called a line of thought. Dig it.

So you are saying that anyone who writes a review also states they it was a STOLEN/Pirated game?

[pimpinc333]

You can't just call it.

WHY does posting an early review promote piracy? HOW do you know whether a title was obtained legally or illegally? HOW would you be able to prove it?

Just because you type it doesn't make it true.


:applause::applause::applause:

[corrosivefrost]

Wow, a bit touchy, maybe? People shouldn't be giving out reviews and impressions of games that were STOLEN. It's that simple. A site allowing such things to be posted are promoting it. See, it's called a line of thought. Dig it.

Yes, because someone posts an impression of a game early on my site, I must assume they are a pirate. And because I assume they're a pirate, and I don't moderate/disallow/whatever their comment I assume implicates them to be a pirate, that means I condone it and support it. Promoting means encouraging. Encouraging means rewarding. Rewarding people for pirating games and giving early impressions. Is CAG paying these reviewers? Is CAG telling them where to d/l their warez? Is CAG giving them the supplies to steal? Not in any way shape or form.

[Wolfkin]

i say yeah. why not

[pimpinc333]

Yes, because someone posts an impression of a game early on my site, I must assume they are a pirate. And because I assume they're a pirate, and I don't moderate/disallow/whatever their comment I assume implicates them to be a pirate, that means I condone it and support it. Promoting means encouraging. Encouraging means rewarding. Rewarding people for pirating games and giving early impressions. Is CAG paying these reviewers? Is CAG telling them where to d/l their warez? Is CAG giving them the supplies to steal? Not in any way shape or form.

:applause::applause::applause:

Well Said.

[ryanflucas]

Will the CAG Trading system have access to a universal games database (similar to lets say Gamestop's current and coming soon listings)? If so then I'd do this if not already mentioned.

-- Have it coded in the system that a game is either "released" "soon to be released" or "not released".
-- When reviews are posted, set it so that the user needs to post the review by choosing the game from a list (fed off the central database).
-- Have a section of their post that posts a disclaimer line that reads "This game is released/soon to be released/not yet released".
-- Have a link they can click on explaining the definition of each of those. Put in a blurb stating what piracy is, that it's bad, and that you the site owner are not liable for their actions.

I figure that reviewing a pirated copy & a pre-released reviewers copy are identical (except for stability implications). If these two are not held in the same regard and this idea spreads, what's stopping publishers from saying that all reviewers, analysts, etc need to have a license to receive pre-release copies? That would cut down on 3/4ths of video game bloggers, thus slowing the industry in one shot. Piracy is the risk you take when you allow your game to be seen by anyone before it's release date, and in many cases played before the actual street date. Either some risk is assumed, or nobody gets to blog/review/see copies of any game before they are released in stores.

[Xevious]

No.

[Gothic Walrus]

Looking through this thread, I'm starting to notice a trend. Most of the users who said "yes" seem to be focusing on the benefits to themselves or to individual users, whereas a lot of the people saying "no" are focusing on the site as a whole. :-k

[Chase]

I just want to know if this also applies to movies, TV shows, and music. If so, how will one figure out if another's opinion on movies, TV shows, and music is based on illegally-acquired items?

Generally speaking, how will one be able to determine how another has acquired their media? What if a game pirate waits until the release date to post their review?

Going by what people have said in this thread, the only exacting way to determine a game pirate is that they have posted an early review. Essentially, all pirates could by-pass issues by simply posting on the release date; thereby possibly making the system impotent.

Looking through this thread, I'm starting to notice a trend. Most of the users who said "yes" seem to be focusing on the benefits to themselves or to individual users, whereas a lot of the people saying "no" are focusing on the site as a whole. :-k


I respect and admire Cheapy and how he actually cares about the community even after all his fame. Policing reviews is difficult, though, as, I mentioned, there are ways around it for the patient.

[seanr1221]

Looking through this thread, I'm starting to notice a trend. Most of the users who said "yes" seem to be focusing on the benefits to themselves or to individual users, whereas a lot of the people saying "no" are focusing on the site as a whole. :-k

:lol: I noticed this too.

[chex20]

Being a person who follows the piracy world daily, I don't see a problem with posting reviews. I don't, and never will condone piracy but just wanted to posts some thoughts.

Pirated games usually come out at MAX a week early (the earliest game I've seen is Halo 3, about a week early. Rock band 2 was just released early, about 6 days before release).

Pirated games are straight rips of the legit copy/game (a full 1:1 copy via a special dvd pc drive). Its not like movies in which there are a ton of options (CAM, telesync, telecine, dvdrip, screeners,etc.).

As for reviews, they should be allowed. Why? Well, they are basically just like IGN, Gamespot, etc. Except for they are from people who play the games for fun, and it isn't their jobs. I don't see the difference between reviews on IGN/Gamespot/etc vs. a review by a CAG member that *maybe* has it pirated.

Do you know for a fact that they have it pirated? Simply put, no. It's a logical guess that they have it pirated, but not sure, as I know gamestops among other stores receive their games in early (as early as a week before release). The reason I know this, is not only have I worked in retail but also, without the stores getting copies in early, then pirates would have nothing to copy. Some store must of gotten rock band 2 in a couple of days ago or else it would not be released online.

They are just reviews, not much more. It's not like we are telling them HOW-TO pirate the games. Granted, pirates look to get games for free, but a good deal of pirates use it to test the game out, before they buy it, and see if its worth it.

Those are just my thoughts/opinions.

[mykevermin]

We could solve this by giving special user designations to those cats who get legit review copies/work for publications or online sites.

Like that RockSolidAudio cat. Give 'em cute special username colors or somethin'.

That way, if someone posts about how disappointing the ending of Gears 2 is, if they ain't one of 'em, it's pretty clear.

[litoeon]

Everyone is free to review a game wether it be pirated or not.

[Halo05]

No for a plethora of reasons, first and foremost being I don't want MS, Sony, Nintendo, etc coming after CheapyD and by extension, CAG.

Even if they can't prove that he's promoting piracy by not slapping people down with the banhammer, the legal fees required for CAG to fight any major software company would be enough to spell the end of CAG.

[pimpinc333]

We could solve this by giving special user designations to those cats who get legit review copies/work for publications or online sites.

Like that RockSolidAudio cat. Give 'em cute special username colors or somethin'.

That way, if someone posts about how disappointing the ending of Gears 2 is, if they ain't one of 'em, it's pretty clear.

It's pretty clear what? I've read numerous times when a CAG scored an early legit copy of a game when a store breaks release dates. Why should they be punished or have everyone point fingers at them as if they stole the game?

[pimpinc333]

No for a plethora of reasons, first and foremost being I don't want MS, Sony, Nintendo, etc coming after CheapyD and by extension, CAG.

Even if they can't prove that he's promoting piracy by not slapping people down with the banhammer, the legal fees required for CAG to fight any major software company would be enough to spell the end of CAG.

None of this would happen. Unless the CAG who reviewed said game came straight out and stated they Pirated the game there would be no way in hell Sony, MS, Nintendo, etc. would come after Cheapy or any specific CAG Why? There is no proof that the game was pirated. MS, Sony, Nintendo, etc. could have a hell of a lawsuit on them if they did that.

[ratzombie]

Well game companies have sued small websites for having a review before the game officially came out at retail (has to do with embargo rules).

However, since the reviews are not from CAG (Cheapy), and by its users then I imagine he wouldn't be held responsible since I'm sure it's in the ToS (if not it should be). Also, CAG reviews are not published on sites like MetaCritic where publishers take their scores very seriously.

[Chase]

I just wonder how one would plan on devising a system for reviews. Would reviewers be required to take a picture of themselves and the game? If not, again, one could simply wait until or after the release date. There has to be more to this system than simply waiting to see who posts before the release date. Also, what is the percentage of present CAG blog reviews that were posted before the release date? Certainly, after this thread, the percentage will be insignificant, if not zero, come time the game database goes live.

[ratzombie]

And anyway, this poll isn't necessarily about reviews. Do you guys think people who pirate games should be allowed to discuss the game at all? As in writing about it to give their personal impression of the game without putting their final opinion or a score to it?

[KingBroly]

As long as you don't mention if it's pirated or not, or do it in a timeframe that is normal before or after a game's release (Like 3-5 days), most people will be none the wiser. They'll think you got it early.

[Chase]

If it's posted on or after a game's release date, it is/will be difficult to monitor posts about games -- unless someone comes out and says, "I downloaded this game and am giving you my thoughts."

[corrosivefrost]

Looking through this thread, I'm starting to notice a trend. Most of the users who said "yes" seem to be focusing on the benefits to themselves or to individual users, whereas a lot of the people saying "no" are focusing on the site as a whole. :-k

the site is a community of users. i see no harm to the community by allowing people to talk about games prior to their release, so long as they're not screaming "I DOWNLOADED THIS HERE, GO GET IT HERE, BUYING GAMES IS FOR CHUMPS!!".

[Wolfkin]

Generally speaking, how will one be able to determine how another has acquired their media? What if a game pirate waits until the release date to post their review?you can't tell the difference that's why I don't care. This idea doesn't target pirates. it targets pirates who download game early. If i pirate games a week after release noone cares (in this discussion). 'Discussion' and 'review' for this question are basically the same thing. and once again long as they aren't giving directions to pirate who the bloody heck cares?

CheapyD doesn't allow linking or pointing to pirated copies** and that's good enough.


** I think this point should be reiterated in the poll because I'm getting the impression that a lot of the 'no' people here haven't considered that discussion/review early or not if they discuss HOW they pirate that would be crossing the line.

[Bloodbooger]

Can someone just point out how the pirate is being rewarded by posting an early review?

He/She isn't getting paid, they're not attaining fame or infamy. It's just a damn review, hell until a solid release, it's a preview of an unfinished product. Just a few written thoughts, no website endorsements, no instructions; this is a forum, a place for thoughts. If anything this review would be honest, no advertisements, no suits involved.

People are going to do whatever the hell they want to do, whether it be productive or destructive, that's their choice and the consequences their reward. That being said, would CAG itself be affected by having someone else post these up? Doubtful, but it's on CheapyD... Look at how the Circuit City vs. Speedy1961 ended up, he's posting previews of sales every week, and I'm damn thankful, he'd put his neck out there for our benefit.

[DQT]

No. I've been perfectly happy reading impressions of new releases from cags who bought the game the week of release. Of course, it would be impossible to chase pirates if they write about games on release, which is fine. Less work for the mods.

[Aleryn]

No.

It'll sometimes harm early information sources, which may make it hard to compete with other sites... but - Pirating is the single most damaging thing to PC Gaming, especially, I believe.

It doesn't help console gaming, either.

It's... somewhat irrational, in ways, but the principles behind not condoning piracy are whats important.

[Number83]

I think we've exhausted the topic of Pirates completely at this point.

Now it's time to discuss...

Ninja's!!!
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/strober/n1252170379_30297859_8966.jpg

[corrosivefrost]

Can someone just point out how the pirate is being rewarded by posting an early review?

They can't.

Then again, this is a confusing world where up is down and wrong is right... sometimes. :roll:

[spidey35]

Yes.

As a gaming site, early impressions could cause more or less people to buy the game depending on how good it is, instead of having to wait until the release date and then reading reviews.
Also, despite common sense, you can't exactly say that said people are indeed pirating the game, they MIGHT have actually purchased it early somewhere.

I don't know of anyone who buys a game based on how it looks. therefore, there is no need to show pirated game pics

[spydey]

Yes, piracy doesn't effect the quality of the game.

[Mantooth]

No. Big difference between being a cheap ass and a crook.

[Wolfkin]

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/strober/n1252170379_30297859_8966.jpgwin

[E*Master]

Finally here is a question for the CAG community:

Is there any difference if someone pirates a game or buys it used from Gamestop for the games publisher?

:-k
No there isn't. Because either way the publisher and the studio don't make any money. Both methods will also encourage others to get the games by either means if it is indeed deemed "good" by those that acquired it so.

What I am seeing here is a trend of people who think it's wrong to pirate and that those who do deserve to burn in hell because they do not support the publisher/studio. Well. To those I ask; Have you ever purchased a game used? Off a Buddy? Traded a game with another person or CAG? Used Goozex? Guess what? Your doing the same thing. Oh what's that? But you paid money so that makes it moral? Hmm Moral.. sure... but you're still not supporting the publisher/studio. Your still stealing from the publisher because you did not fork over your money directly to them but rather to a 3rd party who is getting rich with your money which is also immorally acquired as they are not giving the publisher a cut.

The only difference is that Piracy is illegal and buying used games (like cars) is legal. However morally you are not supporting the publisher but rather a (sometimes) mutli-million dollar corporation that is ripping YOU off by giving shit for your games that may only be a few weeks old and giving you half of what you paid them. Then sells it (sometimes as new by re-shrinkingwrapping the games... oh of course they do that) or for 5 bucks less than what the game costs new (like they do here in Canada ie GTA IV new = 59.99 GTA IV used 54.99 I am not shitting you that's what gamestop does up here and I can take a pic to prove it).

By doing so YOU are also rewarding imorality. This isn't about which one is right and wrong but rather about choosing the lesser of the 2 evils. How do you not fall under either category then? By not being a Cheap Ass Gamer.

EOD

[E*Master]

No. Big difference between being a cheap ass and a crook.
Damn U summarized what I wrote into one sentence before I even wrote my post. But that is the truth in a nutshell.

[CactusZac098]

I don't listen to other people's opinions about games, you shouldn't either.

[smiggity]

Absolutely yes.

[Bloodbooger]

I don't listen to other people's opinions about games, you shouldn't either.

If everyone says your an asshole (not saying you really are), you probably are.

It may work pretty well if we could rate the reviews.

[zewone]

I <3 how this decision is going to be made by a majority of people who are very ignorant to what is being discussed.

Democracy at it's finest.

[Gothic Walrus]

No there isn't. Because either way the publisher and the studio don't make any money. Both methods will also encourage others to get the games by either means if it is indeed deemed "good" by those that acquired it so.

What I am seeing here is a trend of people who think it's wrong to pirate and that those who do deserve to burn in hell because they do not support the publisher/studio. Well. To those I ask; Have you ever purchased a game used? Off a Buddy? Traded a game with another person or CAG? Used Goozex? Guess what? Your doing the same thing. Oh what's that? But you paid money so that makes it moral? Hmm Moral.. sure... but you're still not supporting the publisher/studio. Your still stealing from the publisher because you did not fork over your money directly to them but rather to a 3rd party who is getting rich with your money which is also immorally acquired as they are not giving the publisher a cut.

The only difference is that Piracy is illegal and buying used games (like cars) is legal. However morally you are not supporting the publisher but rather a (sometimes) mutli-million dollar corporation that is ripping YOU off by giving shit for your games that may only be a few weeks old and giving you half of what you paid them. Then sells it (sometimes as new by re-shrinkingwrapping the games... oh of course they do that) or for 5 bucks less than what the game costs new (like they do here in Canada ie GTA IV new = 59.99 GTA IV used 54.99 I am not shitting you that's what gamestop does up here and I can take a pic to prove it).

By doing so YOU are also rewarding imorality. This isn't about which one is right and wrong but rather about choosing the lesser of the 2 evils. How do you not fall under either category then? By not being a Cheap Ass Gamer.

EOD

The problem with that argument is that buying used games DOES help support the publisher, at least indirectly. GameStop and EB make a significant portion of their profit from used games. Without the sale of used games, chances are good the chain wouldn't be able to survive, which would kill the only national video game chain we have. Lousy business practices aside, if GameStop vanished it'd have a very significant effect on the publishers and the gaming industry as a whole.

There's a reason why you've never seen a store that sells new games and new games only, and that's because the profit margin on new titles and consoles isn't enough to keep them in business. And no, stores like Best Buy and Target may not sell used games, but they also carry a lot of non-gaming merchandise as well.

Again, though, this is completely unrelated to the original topic of discussion. This doesn't have anything to do with whether people should be allowed to discuss on CAG early impressions from pirated games.

[Haggar]

Why not just turn this into a warez & cracks site while you're at it.

We need more sites with flashing banners and those smiley ads that scream "OH MY GOD, NO WAY!" whenever the page loads.

[CaseyRyback]

I <3 how this decision is going to be made by a majority of people who are very ignorant to what is being discussed.

Democracy at it's finest.


I wholeheartedly agree.

[LiK]

no, because some pirated games are not final OR they have built in code to crash the game ex: Assassin's Creed had the code to crash before you got to a major city. it was mentioned in 1up. things like that can give off a false impression of the game. besides, piracy should not be encouraged here in any way.

[antlp89]

No, I don't think it should be allowed. Sadly, I think most people will post "reviews" with the sole intention to brag that they've finished the game first. Honest, genuine reviews are a different story, but how would you filter the good from the bad?

[mightymaxx]

Allow it by not acknowledging it one way or the other. Make sure site policy is obvious, you post early reviews at your own risk. I think you would be rather dumb to review a pirated copy, since you'd be kind of leaving yourself open. I wouldn't steal clothes from Walmart then blog about how they fit.

[germanhousewife]

its not illegal to do it

[crystalklear64]

Not with a wall of text that large :/

[Temporaryscars]

This poll and 90% of the posts here are just plain retarded.



But I voted anyway.


Where's the poll asking "Should podcasts be allowed to mention shows that are pirated or should we duct tape their mouths?"

[flaming homer]

yes

pirated software is no different than your friend giving you a game: someone paid for it, just not you.

plus its just impressions, its not like you're giving out the pirated game or something

[chex20]

Ok, I feel that I must explain fully what piracy is exactly. Some people are mixing up what piracy really is, and what it is about.

What exactly is piracy?

It's the unauthorized reproduction or use of a copyrighted book, recording, television program, patented invention, trademarked product, etc.

What key word is in the above statement?

Unauthorized

What does unauthorized mean?

To not be given authority to, and/or to not be given permission to/for.

What does this have to do with piracy?

Well, almost everything. It is said that because people who download video games online are pirating the software, they are unauthorized. What grounds do they have saying that they are unauthorized in downloading the game?

Under section 117 of the Copyright Act, it states that:

you or someone you authorize may make a copy of an original computer program if:

* the new copy is being made for archival (i.e., backup) purposes only;
* you are the legal owner of the copy; and
* any copy made for archival purposes is either destroyed, or transferred with the original copy, once the original copy is sold, given away, or otherwise transferred.

What this is referred to as is creating a "archival" copy (aka creating a backup copy).

By saying that we, as consumers, are not allowed to download a game that we legally own, and as stated by section 117 in the copyright act, is wrong. Since we bought the game, fully supporting the company, we should be allowed to keep a backup copy. Are you saying that we can't create a backup of say Final Fantasy VII? Those who were smart, and downloaded Final Fantasy VII while keeping their copy still sealed (in the plastic) are now laughing at us. Why? Because instead of buying 2 copies of the game (spending twice as much money), they saved that money and still got to play the amazing game. Is this wrong? By what I'm seeing in this thread, it seems to me that by downloading a game it constatutes it being illegal. It is not, they created a archival copy (ie backup) of their own game that they bought.

Is downloading the illegal part?

No (to put it simply). Its just that by being online and thus having the
ability to download the file that makes it show that everyone who downloads the game is involved in an illegal activity. Seeing that there is no full proof way of proving whether or not you have the original game or not (yes, you can show proof, but the government is not gonna ask politely to show them proof. They see you are downloading files and must not have the original files). Taking xbox 360 games as an example, there is only a few dvd pc drives that are able to read the original game. By what I'm reading
here, you are saying that the people who own the original game but doesn't have one of the special dvd pc drives that can read the original game, that they are SOL and can't make an archival copy for their records (why would they want a archival copy? To keep the original scratch-free, or maybe just incase someone breaks your original, or maybe they are just a collector and want to keep the original in it's package). So, what would be their options? Well, the only way I can think of is to download the game, so that all they have to do is burn the ISO and then just play it.

What comes into play here, is morality.

If you don't own the game then yes, it is (according to the Copyright Act) illegal. Are they going to be people doing this? Of course there will be. Why? Well, come on, if it's free then people will always want it. The government doesn't care about the few that download legally (thus owning the original game), they assume that the majority of the people downloading it are downloading it cause its free and they don't want to pay $60 for the game. It screws up those who own the game (and who bought the game from a local shop) but don't have the software/hardware/or knowledge to make a copy of their game on their own. Those who do download illegal more than likely don't care what happens to the company, they got what they want. Can they live with themselves knowing they got the game for free while others are paying for it?

It's not whether downloading video games is wrong or right, it's what the person sitting on their computer looking at their download bar is thinking. What is going on in their head while downloading the game. You must know what they are thinking before you can instantly assume that they are pirating. Is it justified? You would have to ask the person downloading the file. That's almost like saying that the person who shot another person is wrong and should be thrown in jail because they shot the person in cold
blood. You don't know the story, you don't know whether or not it was in self defense or just in cold blood.

Do I feel that everyone who downloads a video game online is in the wrong? Absoulutely not. I can only hope that those who download video games online are doing so because they want to have a copy of the original and to keep it safe, and wish that if they do like the game that they will support the company and buy it. Not all people who download games online are illegal and never buy the actual game.

That's all I have for right now. I hope I got through to some folks.

[RichMeisterMan]

We live in a society that requires hard evidence to do anything.

So I think as long as there is no way to be able to prove that the review or whatever is based on pirated software all should be ok.

Just assume they got a game from a retailer that broke the street date.

If they don't say, "I pirated this game" then let it go.

[lilboo]

That's great, Chex, but the thread isn't about priacy: IS IT RIGHT OR WRONG. :roll:

[FriskyTanuki]

Let's just ban everybody that voted "yes" and the problem will be solved. :D

[Temporaryscars]

Let's just ban everybody that voted "yes" and the problem will be solved. :D

This.

[Gothic Walrus]

That's great, Chex, but the thread isn't about priacy: IS IT RIGHT OR WRONG. :roll:

It doesn't help that most of his argument and interpretation of the section of the law is just wrong.

[MrNEWZ]

If you allow it to be posted, you reward piracy. Simple as that. They get to be "first," and enjoy the attention they get (which they will try to leverage into getting people to get them Xboxes via referral services or some other stupid b.s.). Some of them will try to claim that they are "doing the community a service by letting people know if the game is worth buying before it comes out in order to save them money." This is a shameful lie.

A.) They are doing it to try to bolster sympathy for their shameful practice.
B.) They have already stated their position on whether someone should buy it because they DIDN'T see fit to buy it.
C.) Their opinion holds no more weight than any other review a CAG could use to determine their purchases.


In short: pirates suck, and should be driven out like filthy beasts.

This.

[bmachine]

I know I'm not the first to point this out, but I think this response is just about perfect:

If you allow it to be posted, you reward piracy. Simple as that. They get to be "first," and enjoy the attention they get (which they will try to leverage into getting people to get them Xboxes via referral services or some other stupid b.s.). Some of them will try to claim that they are "doing the community a service by letting people know if the game is worth buying before it comes out in order to save them money." This is a shameful lie.

A.) They are doing it to try to bolster sympathy for their shameful practice.
B.) They have already stated their position on whether someone should buy it because they DIDN'T see fit to buy it.
C.) Their opinion holds no more weight than any other review a CAG could use to determine their purchases.


In short: pirates suck, and should be driven out like filthy beasts.

[bsesb2003]

The end does not justify the means.

[Strell]

pirated software is no different than your friend giving you a game: someone paid for it, just not you.


Remember when I said this was thread of the year?

I was right. So, so right.

[mguiddy]

I just want to know if this also applies to movies, TV shows, and music. If so, how will one figure out if another's opinion on movies, TV shows, and music is based on illegally-acquired items?

A new section in everyone's user profile where we can upload scans of receipts, cable/satellite bills, and ticket stubs. We can call the section "Papers".:lol:

[phear3d]

i voted no because thats simply not fair to the developers, publishers, and gamers who are looking forward to playing it. even if the said reviewers of the pirated copies stated that they do like the game and are willing to pay full price for a copy later on doesn't sound convincing enough. i would rather have their post deleted.

[mykevermin]

I see you're playing Rock Band 2. Care to show me a photo of the disc you purchased?

Ok, I feel that I must explain fully what piracy is exactly. Some people are mixing up what piracy really is, and what it is about.

What exactly is piracy?

It's the unauthorized reproduction or use of a copyrighted book, recording, television program, patented invention, trademarked product, etc.

What key word is in the above statement?

Unauthorized

What does unauthorized mean?

To not be given authority to, and/or to not be given permission to/for.

What does this have to do with piracy?

Well, almost everything. It is said that because people who download video games online are pirating the software, they are unauthorized. What grounds do they have saying that they are unauthorized in downloading the game?

Under section 117 of the Copyright Act, it states that:

you or someone you authorize may make a copy of an original computer program if:

* the new copy is being made for archival (i.e., backup) purposes only;
* you are the legal owner of the copy; and
* any copy made for archival purposes is either destroyed, or transferred with the original copy, once the original copy is sold, given away, or otherwise transferred.

What this is referred to as is creating a "archival" copy (aka creating a backup copy).

By saying that we, as consumers, are not allowed to download a game that we legally own, and as stated by section 117 in the copyright act, is wrong. Since we bought the game, fully supporting the company, we should be allowed to keep a backup copy. Are you saying that we can't create a backup of say Final Fantasy VII? Those who were smart, and downloaded Final Fantasy VII while keeping their copy still sealed (in the plastic) are now laughing at us. Why? Because instead of buying 2 copies of the game (spending twice as much money), they saved that money and still got to play the amazing game. Is this wrong? By what I'm seeing in this thread, it seems to me that by downloading a game it constatutes it being illegal. It is not, they created a archival copy (ie backup) of their own game that they bought.

Is downloading the illegal part?

No (to put it simply). Its just that by being online and thus having the
ability to download the file that makes it show that everyone who downloads the game is involved in an illegal activity. Seeing that there is no full proof way of proving whether or not you have the original game or not (yes, you can show proof, but the government is not gonna ask politely to show them proof. They see you are downloading files and must not have the original files). Taking xbox 360 games as an example, there is only a few dvd pc drives that are able to read the original game. By what I'm reading
here, you are saying that the people who own the original game but doesn't have one of the special dvd pc drives that can read the original game, that they are SOL and can't make an archival copy for their records (why would they want a archival copy? To keep the original scratch-free, or maybe just incase someone breaks your original, or maybe they are just a collector and want to keep the original in it's package). So, what would be their options? Well, the only way I can think of is to download the game, so that all they have to do is burn the ISO and then just play it.

What comes into play here, is morality.

If you don't own the game then yes, it is (according to the Copyright Act) illegal. Are they going to be people doing this? Of course there will be. Why? Well, come on, if it's free then people will always want it. The government doesn't care about the few that download legally (thus owning the original game), they assume that the majority of the people downloading it are downloading it cause its free and they don't want to pay $60 for the game. It screws up those who own the game (and who bought the game from a local shop) but don't have the software/hardware/or knowledge to make a copy of their game on their own. Those who do download illegal more than likely don't care what happens to the company, they got what they want. Can they live with themselves knowing they got the game for free while others are paying for it?

It's not whether downloading video games is wrong or right, it's what the person sitting on their computer looking at their download bar is thinking. What is going on in their head while downloading the game. You must know what they are thinking before you can instantly assume that they are pirating. Is it justified? You would have to ask the person downloading the file. That's almost like saying that the person who shot another person is wrong and should be thrown in jail because they shot the person in cold
blood. You don't know the story, you don't know whether or not it was in self defense or just in cold blood.

Do I feel that everyone who downloads a video game online is in the wrong? Absoulutely not. I can only hope that those who download video games online are doing so because they want to have a copy of the original and to keep it safe, and wish that if they do like the game that they will support the company and buy it. Not all people who download games online are illegal and never buy the actual game.

That's all I have for right now. I hope I got through to some folks.

[Temporaryscars]

I know I'm not the first to point this out, but I think this response is just about perfect:


But how do you prove that it was pirated. Unless they actually say it was, how do you know?

[Gothic Walrus]

I see you're playing Rock Band 2. Care to show me a photo of the disc you purchased?

:rofl:

[Strell]

I see you're playing Rock Band 2. Care to show me a photo of the disc you purchased?

Geez myke. You're like a dick version of Clippy.

[mykevermin]

Clippy?

[Gothic Walrus]

Clippy?

http://bananasfk.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/clippy.jpg

[Strell]

He was Microsoft's little Word helper bullshit avatar. Annoying as hell.

He was intended to help you create projects based on what you were typing. So if you tried to make a bullet list, he'd come out and have links to bullet list tools.

But his AI was shot and so he just basically asked over and over "It looks like you're writing a letter. Care to have some help with that?"

No matter what you were doing - "It looks like you're writing a letter..."

NO I'M NOT CLIPPY. I AM NOT WRITING A LETTER.

[Strell]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v297/Einzell/clippyVermin.gif

[crystalklear64]

I see you're playing Rock Band 2. Care to show me a photo of the disc you purchased?
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/8804/rockband2legitum7.jpg
it's the back

[mguiddy]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v297/Einzell/clippyVermin.gif
:rofl:

[chex20]

I see you're playing Rock Band 2. Care to show me a photo of the disc you purchased?

Did I ever say I bought the disc?

Reading comprehension, did you learn it?

[Dead of Knight]

Hell no they shouldn't be able to talk about it. The only people who should post personal hands-on impressions of unreleased games are people who've played a demo, or people in the industry who got to play them early, such as MarkMan. Otherwise I'd say it's grounds for a bannination. Why? If companies get wind of this shit, they may very well try to shut down this site even though it's not directly responsible for the piracy. Even if nothing came of it, it'd still be a huge hassle for Cheapy.

[Lions]

I vote yes.

Just don't mention it's pirated.
It may be illegal, but posting a review about a game not out yet, doesn't mean anything 100%.
Just let it be. If it ever gets out of hand, then we could talk about further actions.
It's no harm.

[mykevermin]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v297/Einzell/clippyVermin.gif

:rofl:

I vaguely remember that. Taking that fucker out of Office was the balance, I suppose, for MS charging the same for Mac Office as they do for Windows, and never bothering to give us Access.

Did I ever say I bought the disc?

Reading comprehension, did you learn it?

Nah. I don't read. If I did ever develop reading comprehension, I'd only be able to understand proper grammar and syntax, not Yoda-driven prattling like "reading comprehension, did you learn it?"

I just asked for your disc, hombre. I didn't expect you'd produce one.

But it stands to reason that your cut and paste job above is laughably schizophrenic.

"Hi, I'm here to cite legal statutes and justify why downloading files is perfectly legal!"

"But then I'm going to throw that all by the wayside as I flippantly toss out legality by saying 'oh, it's just an issue of morality!'"

So, you know, your legal definition fails you because, as someone who uses Rock Band 2 but does not OWN Rock Band 2, you are (hur hur) "Unauthorized," legally, to make a backup copy.

Be a pirate. Knock yourself out. I'm not going to be able to stop you. But I'm not going to sit by and read your Lionel Hutch bullshit, pretending like it's even moderately coherent.

I mean, *seriously*, princess. Go back and read your own post. I even quoted it so you can read it twice. You say that downloading files is (1) legal, (2) illegal, and (3) only an issue of morality all in the same post. Do what you want, but get the fuck off the fence and pick a side.

[zewone]

Hell no they shouldn't be able to talk about it. The only people who should post personal hands-on impressions of unreleased games are people who've played a demo, or people in the industry who got to play them early, such as MarkMan. Otherwise I'd say it's grounds for a bannination.

Should we start making people like MarkMang prove everything he got was legit with every post?

[Pookymeister]

Offtopic

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a187/comfortablynumb08/zelda-sig-1.jpg

Need to edit your sig a bit

[Dead of Knight]

Should we start making people like MarkMang prove everything he got was legit with every post?

No (though Gamefaqs has a system to verify if someone's in the industry), but considering everything he's posted in the past, including hands-on impressions of games that aren't even able to be pirated, it's safe to say the guy has the credentials. It's also safe to say that not all of the nearly dozen people in the OTT who've been playing Rock Band 2 have such credentials.

[Gothic Walrus]

Did I ever say I bought the disc?

Reading comprehension, did you learn it?

Hmm...

I don't, and never will condone piracy but just wanted to posts some thoughts.

So...if you didn't BUY the disc and you didn't PIRATE it (since you don't condone piracy, after all), mind telling us how you're playing it? Given these comments:

Being a person who follows the piracy world daily...

...

Rock band 2 was just released early, about 6 days before release.

...I suspect I already know the answer (hint: it starts with a "P" and ends in "irated"), but I want to hear your explanation. I'm expecting the response to be one hell of a coincidence, but let's hear it anyway.

Also, since you've got the game early and since you said you've got no problem with early impressions, you might want to think about posting some. Just to see what happens.

Go on. Test the fucking system. I want to see how the mods and CheapyD are going to handle it, because I think our hypothetical "what if" is on the verge of becoming reality. You don't think there's a problem with it, and this seems like a prime opportunity to back up your words with action.

[Dead of Knight]

Let's just ban everybody that voted "yes" and the problem will be solved. :D

Thread over.

[mykevermin]

Offtopic



Need to edit your sig a bit



*snort*

[Lions]

Offtopic



Need to edit your sig a bit


I noticed it awhile ago, but until I feel like doing something to it, It'll stay typo'd. =]

[Pookymeister]

*snort*

Discussing drugs is illegal too

[mitch079]

No.

[GuilewasNK]

Looking through this thread, I'm starting to notice a trend. Most of the users who said "yes" seem to be focusing on the benefits to themselves or to individual users, whereas a lot of the people saying "no" are focusing on the site as a whole. :-k

Yep. I think it's rather eye opening to be honest, and I'll just leave it at that.

[grifter_mcgraw]

Given that he's posted at least one page-long "legal" excuse for why piracy is okay and that he's been one of the ones saying it's fine to post early impressions, I want to see him practice what he's preaching.

Really? Because it looked to me like you just wanted to whine and getting a few jokes about him pirating it.

Oh, wait, you also suggested he post early impressions, from how it looks, RIGHT NOW, which is, by the way, going above the heads of every other poster and voter here, not to mention the mods.

[flaming homer]

i dont get this. all banning this will do is increase the amount of people who get games from their brother's dog's flea's former host's roommate's grandpa who works at nintendo

[Moxio]

Piracy, RIGHT NOW, is, by the way, DEFINITELY bad. DEFINITELY.

[wangman31888]

Nope, unless said person can prove that its not pirated and was actually purchased early. But often that is unlikely.

do review sites ever give proof? i mean we just assume that they get the copies legit, why is it so wrong to do that with CAGs???

[Wolve11]

I need to go to sleep....but man this thread has kept me entertained all day long. There's some awesome quotes to be had and some great laughs....Thanks CAG.


In before the lock....:D

[Strell]

i dont get this. all banning this will do is increase the amount of people who get games from their brother's dog's flea's former host's roommate's grandpa who works at nintendo

Oh yeah.

I mean that's what I do already, but it's good to know more people will be in the same boat with me soon.

[flaming homer]

you know it broski. gotta get connected

[ratzombie]

Can't we just all get along?

:grouphug:

[Strell]

you know it broski. gotta get connected

Right on bra. Fight the power.

[Squeedom49]

No, Pirated software is not always finished code. Thats what happend with Alone in the Dark.

[ratzombie]

No, Pirated software is not always finished code. Thats what happend with Alone in the Dark.

That was finished code. :lol:

[Dead of Knight]

That was finished code. :lol:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

I am always a sucker for Alone in the Dark (movie and most current game) jokes.

[drone8888]

Pretty sad, that with all of the things in the world going on;... economic failure, war, pending war with Pakistan/Iran/Russia, American union, pending impeachment process of Bush, surge of extra-terrestrial craft sightings, FEMA camps, coffins for 90% of the US population scattered across America, Nasa stating that there is going to be a major galactic event within the next few years, the Mayan/Egyptian calendar coming to an end, Sumerian tablets showing a planet heading toward us which will cause a polar shift, the environment failing, fossil fuels becoming more rare, and so much more all pointing to something negative on a global scale in the midst........ this is what people are concerned with :O
I've stopped gaming, and started listening to the meek voices around me. While sometimes I need a break from the dreadful aura that the populous is emitting, there are just too many serious issues to be worrying about silly things like this.
I know it's CAG, and I've enjoyed being a member for many years now. I just wish awareness was evident, and that people got more involved with the world instead of confines of their game dens; which is exactly where the system wants us.
Sure, piracy isn't good for the industry... but if there isn't an industry at all, then what's the point.

[Dead of Knight]

Pretty sad, that with all of the things in the world going on;... economic failure, war, pending war with Pakistan/Iran/Russia, American union, pending impeachment process of Bush, surge of extra-terrestrial craft sightings, FEMA camps, coffins for 90% of the US population scattered across America, Nasa stating that there is going to be a major galactic event within the next few years, the Mayan/Egyptian calendar coming to an end, Sumerian tablets showing a planet heading toward us which will cause a polar shift, the environment failing, fossil fuels becoming more rare, and so much more all pointing to something negative on a global scale in the midst........ this is what people are concerned with :O
I've stopped gaming, and started listening to the meek voices around me. While sometimes I need a break from the dreadful aura that the populous is emitting, there are just too many serious issues to be worrying about silly things like this.
I know it's CAG, and I've enjoyed being a member for many years now. I just wish awareness was evident, and that people got more involved with the world instead of confines of their game dens; which is exactly where the system wants us.
Sure, piracy isn't good for the industry... but if there isn't an industry at all, then what's the point.

This is a fucking videogame site, not a political science or "OMG the world's gonna end" forum. This place is supposed to be about videogames, not about fucking politics, conspiracies, and world issues. And in case you need your fill on that, we have a sub-forum for just that stuff. Seriously, I just don't get your point at all. No one is saying this is worse or more important than any of the world problems going on right now, so what the fuck are you talking about?

Seriously, is this a joke post? Pending impeachment process of Bush? Are you just pulling shit out of your ass? He's gone in a couple months, and Kucinich's efforts to get the ball rolling went nowhere.

[RollingSkull]

Looking through this thread, I'm starting to notice a trend. Most of the users who said "yes" seem to be focusing on the benefits to themselves or to individual users, whereas a lot of the people saying "no" are focusing on the site as a whole. :-k
That's a pretty narrow definition. Given that the only benefit of allowing pirated impressions benefits just the person who wants to make an informed shopping decision and banning it will allow self-righteous jackasses to feel good in their highly contrived morality while they go back to printing, copying, and sharing coupons as well as abusing customer service tenets wherever they can.

Excuse me if I don't exactly find the scorn of a bunch of preening internets wannabe nannies whose first instinct when seeing games on clearance for $7 is not to leave that deal for someone who wants to PLAY the game but to flip it at GameStop particularly genuine.

CAG is never going to be seen as a den of piracy simply because we don't have a ton of jackoffs who post GAMERDUDE'S LEET PREVIEW: DELIVERED TO YOU EARLY BY PIRACY. Attempting to POLICE THE INTERNET OF VIDEO GAME PIRACY is just going to create a backlash and drain the site of a lot of good contributors who *gasp* MAY ALSO PIRATE.

In before "RollingSkull... that is what a PIRATE would say. Are you now engaging or have you ever engaged in piracy? *Prepares Scarlet P brand*"

[RollingSkull]

the Mayan/Egyptian calendar coming to an end, Sumerian tablets showing a planet heading toward us which will cause a polar shift,
I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[crystalklear64]

Looking through this thread, I'm starting to notice a trend. Most of the users who said "yes" seem to be focusing on the benefits to themselves or to individual users, whereas a lot of the people saying "no" are focusing on the site as a whole. :-k
I do not think so highly of myself that I am qualified to speak for a whole site. I prefer to speak for myself.

[zewone]

Pretty sad, that with all of the things in the world going on;... economic failure, war, pending war with Pakistan/Iran/Russia, American union, pending impeachment process of Bush, surge of extra-terrestrial craft sightings, FEMA camps, coffins for 90% of the US population scattered across America, Nasa stating that there is going to be a major galactic event within the next few years, the Mayan/Egyptian calendar coming to an end, Sumerian tablets showing a planet heading toward us which will cause a polar shift, the environment failing, fossil fuels becoming more rare, and so much more all pointing to something negative on a global scale in the midst........ this is what people are concerned with :O
I've stopped gaming, and started listening to the meek voices around me. While sometimes I need a break from the dreadful aura that the populous is emitting, there are just too many serious issues to be worrying about silly things like this.
I know it's CAG, and I've enjoyed being a member for many years now. I just wish awareness was evident, and that people got more involved with the world instead of confines of their game dens; which is exactly where the system wants us.
Sure, piracy isn't good for the industry... but if there isn't an industry at all, then what's the point.
Why are you posting here instead of on your nearest highway, picking up litter?

I agree that this topic is useless, and really, why should anyone care if someone else on this site is pirating games?

But, you are trying to think too globally, and most people just live their day, not worrying about shit like you just posted.

This is a videogame website, not a United Nations summit.

[RollingSkull]

I guess I shouldn't get so worked up. This little censorship game will be unenforceable anyway.

[jackoman]

Did these reviewers admit to piracy? Maybe they tested the game or had access to a review copy?

[zewone]

I guess I shouldn't get so worked up. This little censorship game will be unenforceable anyway.

It's already been enforced in the OTT for months now.

But, you're right, scattered around the site, it'll be less enforceable.

[Gothic Walrus]

That's a pretty narrow definition. Given that the only benefit of allowing pirated impressions benefits just the person who wants to make an informed shopping decision and banning it will allow self-righteous jackasses to feel good in their highly contrived morality while they go back to printing, copying, and sharing coupons as well as abusing customer service tenets wherever they can.

Excuse me if I don't exactly find the scorn of a bunch of preening internets wannabe nannies whose first instinct when seeing games on clearance for $7 is not to leave that deal for someone who wants to PLAY the game but to flip it at GameStop particularly genuine.

CAG is never going to be seen as a den of piracy simply because we don't have a ton of jackoffs who post GAMERDUDE'S LEET PREVIEW: DELIVERED TO YOU EARLY BY PIRACY. Attempting to POLICE THE INTERNET OF VIDEO GAME PIRACY is just going to create a backlash and drain the site of a lot of good contributors who *gasp* MAY ALSO PIRATE.

In before "RollingSkull... that is what a PIRATE would say. Are you now engaging or have you ever engaged in piracy? *Prepares Scarlet P brand*"

Trust me, I'm not going to do that to everyone who posts here. chex20 was a special case, for being borderline incoherent, using laws that don't mean what he thinks they do to support his case, and for flat out lying. :)

You are right that some of the people attacking the pirates are hypocrites. Not everyone, maybe (I can only speak for myself, but it's been years since the last time I've even thought about using a coupon from CAG or flipping games), but we've definitely got a few people here who are so two-faced that they'd be right at home in Gotham City.

Note to self: don't try to make up metaphors.

In any case, I'd give it twelve hours max before we see a post saying "But...but...that's not the same thing!" to justify the coupons. We've already had a few like that in the thread, so we're probably due for another.

The sad thing is, the can of worms that's been opened wasn't the intent of the thread in the first place. It is possible that Cheapy's a brilliant sociologist and I'm underestimating him, but I don't think it was his intent to get into a discussion on legality and morality of piracy.

I do not think so highly of myself that I am qualified to speak for a whole site. I prefer to speak for myself.

I didn't say that they're speaking for the site, though I maybe could have worded it better. Rather, what I meant is that they're focusing on the impact to the site (or, if you prefer, the effects on the site).

[RollingSkull]

It's already been enforced in the OTT for months now.

But, you're right, scattered around the site, it'll be less enforceable.
I don't even know what OTT means.

[zewone]

Me neither.

[RollingSkull]

Me neither.
Then how do you even know if something has been "enforced"... in OTT or whatever?

Trust me, I'm not going to do that to everyone who posts here. chex20 was a special case, for being borderline incoherent, using laws that don't mean what he thinks they do to support his case, and for flat out lying. :)

You are right that some of the people attacking the pirates are hypocrites. Not everyone, maybe (I can only speak for myself, but it's been years since the last time I've even thought about using a coupon from CAG or flipping games), but we've definitely got a few people here who are so two-faced that they'd be right at home in Gotham City.

In any case, I'd give it twelve hours max before we see a post saying "But...but...that's not the same thing!" to justify the coupons. We've already had a few like that in the thread, so we're probably due for another.

The sad thing is, the can of worms that's been opened wasn't the intent of the thread in the first place. It is possible that Cheapy's a brilliant sociologist and I'm underestimating him, but I don't think it was his intent to get into a discussion on legality and morality of piracy.

I've seen so many pirates twist the legal gray area of electronically stored data to carve out an incoherent "legality" or even "moral justification" for piracy that I cease to find it infuriating, amusing, or even worth response.

The thing is, I don't care about this issue as far as it pertains to piracy. You need only post on ANY internet forum "I think piracy is pretty bad/cool" and you'll get the usual long-winded screeds from both sides. The internet is nothing if not predictable.

I only care as much as I think it is a silly and childish means of dealing with the issue. I find it irritating that the CAG userbase seems to think that throwing up a silly and nigh unenforcable rule that will dissuade importers, early acquirers, etc from posting their opinions is the best way to soothe their fragile collective conscience, and I find it insulting that the CAG userbase wants to hold a monopoly on morality.

CAG forums are as well-moderated as internets forums go... definitely a relatively respectable good cop to bad cop ratio, as well as a respectable moderation consistency. Comparable with GameFAQs. There's no danger of CAG being seen as a bastion of piracy. This sort of ruling only serves to massage the egos of those voting FOR THE GOOD GUYS HOW CAN YOU YES VOTERS SUPPORT PIRACY

[zewone]

Then how do you even know if something has been "enforced"... in OTT or whatever?


I was joking.

http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196888

[grifter_mcgraw]

CAG forums are as well-moderated as internets forums go... definitely a relatively respectable good cop to bad cop ratio, as well as a respectable moderation consistency. Comparable with GameFAQs. There's no danger of CAG being seen as a bastion of piracy. This sort of ruling only serves to massage the egos of those voting FOR THE GOOD GUYS HOW CAN YOU YES VOTERS SUPPORT PIRACY

I would have to disagree, and say that there are WAY too many bad cops here. I cite all of the non-deal threads in the Game Deals forum, and the "R.I.P. Mousin" thread as evidence of this.

[Shady3011]

This thread ended up being pretty retarded.

[RollingSkull]

I would have to disagree, and say that there are WAY too many bad cops here. I cite all of the non-deal threads in the Game Deals forum, and the "R.I.P. Mousin" thread as evidence of this.
Consider it redacted. You'd know a lot better than I would.

[probablysober]

I haven't played a PC game in a while, but to be honest I used to pirate games. Now for those of you greatly against that let me explain.

I'm a big believer in the try before you buy method of gaming. If a demo wasn't available I would quite often pirate the game and play it for an hour or so to get an impression of it, and more importantly see if it would actually run on my computer. If I liked the game and nothing horrible happened concerning it being able to play on my system I woul go and buy it.

But due to lacking one shader that most new games use I've kind of switched over to being a console only gamer. And with that i have no need to pirate or interest in making my console copy friendly since most games I'm interested in have a demo out eventually.

I do the same thing with music, download it, give it a listen, if I like it I go out and buy a higher quality copy of it.

[drone8888]

I was being serious :D
Everything has to do with everything,.... I just got carried away. I'll be in Iraq in a few days, and wanted to spout; considering CAG is my home. I don't post much, so leave me alone :P
It just saddens me that I fell into every trap that was ever lied out for me, and don't want to see my online family in the same predicament.
Down with the pirates? :)

[Mookyjooky]

I dont really mind either way.... CAG has progressively been moving to a pirate friendly community since the PSP. I remember when you couldnt even mention it.

[lilboo]

Cheapy,
These are fun! (Serious!). Can we please do community polls once a week?!

[Rocko]

I do hope this poll will be reposted in a form where it can be voted on legitimately instead of people voting on a completely different issue than what is at hand.

[Brak]

So if new forum laws come to light, based on this poll question: users who have the game early will have to wait until the street date to post their impressions?

...

Wait. What?

[retrovertigo]

I think that as long as we don't KNOW that it's pirated, I think it's okay. I'm sure some of our more legitimate gaming media sites have done similar things in the past.

[Ather]

No. Obtain it legally like everyone else.

[munch]

So should I post my impressions of Rock Band 2 in here or what?

[Brak]

No. Obtain it legally like everyone else.
1.) That wasn't the question, and 2.) the question wouldn't have been asked if "everyone else" is obtaining legal copies.

[dboy81]

I was attracted to this site initially because like everyone else, I want to save a few dollars while feeding my habit. Knowledge is power and the members of this site work together, pool their knowledge, and wind up helping each other while being helped at the same time. That's a nice feeling when you legitimately share information about the marketplace- it helps consumers and companies both. Demand is met, inventories are cleared, stock is turned, etc. Allowing pirated software a place of prominence on this site defeats the purpose- it's "Cheap Ass Gamer," not "Cheap Ass Pickpocket," and at the end of the day it's just plain wrong.

If a game has been pirated, not only was it illegally obtained, it was obtained for free. Not I'm not a fan of overpriced games, but thievery is where the line must be drawn. If we support posting known pirated information, we turn this site from a community of people helping each other by sharing information into an underground black market. If posting reviews of pirated software is allowed to happen here, it won't be long before threads about how to obtain that pirated software start to appear. I vote no.

Preserve the positive spirit of this site. We're a community of gamers helping gamers through legitimate means, not a network of petty crooks.

[prence]

I'm down for letting them post impressions of the game. I could care less if that takes sales away from the game industry. Maybe they should make better games...

As for posting reviews of early releases, I'm not a fan. Early releases can contain bugs and be missing fixes that can genuinely hurt the review score (Assassins Creed watermark crash anyone?)

Also the question wasn't 'should we help people steal?!' It was whether or not someone can post their own opinion after they've already done what they shouldn't.

It's not supporting piracy, it's denying censorship!

[mykevermin]

I think that as long as we don't KNOW that it's pirated, I think it's okay. I'm sure some of our more legitimate gaming media sites have done similar things in the past.

Not necessarily. Tacit approval is still approval.

[pooloftears]

I don't agree with this. The website is legit. The deals are legit, so the reviews should be LEGIT.

[IAmTheCheapestGamer]

It all depends on what the early impressions were based on. If they were based on a pre-release copy of the game and the game has changed significantly before release, then the reviews do nothing to help the community.

Either way though, the discussion of downloading games(illegal back ups) has always been a hands off type of topic, with threads related to such things usually being locked within a day or less. But allowing the reviews of downloaded pre release copies of games sets a precedent that I don't think CAG wants to be affiliated with.

After all, if discussing the review of a downloaded copy of a game is considered legit, then who's to say that discussing downloading already released games is illegal? It would seem hypocritical to allow one and not the others.

[stoned99]

Even though Piracy itself is illegal, the reviews of a game may act as a wake up call for a developer, it also serves as a warning to those of us interested in the game to be wary of laying down 50-60$ of our hard earned flipping cash :)

I say let sleeping dogs lie.

[Sir_Fragalot]

Whats the difference if some person says the game sucks a week before it comes out or the day it comes out. As long as he doesn't say how and where he got it from, I am fine with it.

[Gothic Walrus]

It all depends on what the early impressions were based on. If they were based on a pre-release copy of the game and the game has changed significantly before release, then the reviews do nothing to help the community.

That would make sense, but how is the person who pirated the game going to know if it's an accurate version of something that hasn't been released yet?

[GF_Eric]

It isn't like if this were allowed we'd suddenly see a huge increase in people pirating games just so they can post an early review. Pirating console games it a lot more of an involved process than pirating PC games and, frankly, the number of people with the capability as well as the skewed moral compass to actually pirate console games is fairly small. Is it right? No. But they are going to do it anyway and the only way to just end it entirely is to start banning people as has already been mentioned. Until it gets to that point, I don't see how posting impressions a little early harms anyone (and I don't particularly give a crap about the poor game makers, sorry).

On that note, though, all of the uneasiness about the quality of the pirated reviews is pretty hilarious. I don't trust most of you to give a decent review of a final, full release game that you get legit so what is the big deal about a review sailing the high seas? Also, most of the people on this site that I know of that pirate typically DON'T post their impressions for public consumption anyway, so this whole debate seems a bit pointless.

Also, by the way, some people that get games early, even through legit means, can actually contain themselves and not go blabbing about it.

[crystalklear64]

It isn't like if this were allowed we'd suddenly see a huge increase in people pirating games just so they can post an early review.
DAMN IT. I mean I support your opinion!

[feek]

absolutely not! all this does is encourage piracy. it encourages people who want to write about these previews, and it encourages people who are convinced to play these games.

[manthing]

We're a community of gamers helping gamers through legitimate means, not a network of petty crooks.



So the Target 360 $10 coupon, CC $40 off $200, and numerous other coupon scans are legitimate?

:-k

[lilboo]

Actually, yes unless they state otherwise. Again, all companies care about is making a sale.

[zewone]

So the Target 360 $10 coupon, CC $40 off $200, and numerous other coupon scans are legitimate?

:-k

Don't forget PepsiStuff, the 360 Live site, the 360 retail site thread (which was closed from so many people abusing it), and countless other gray areas that CAG already deals with.

[manthing]

Actually, yes unless they state otherwise. Again, all companies care about is making a sale.

The Target $10 coupon scans or the $5 off $25 toy coupon?

Umm, no.

That's why every Target near me(Target's birthplace) has signs near the weekly ad, and ALL registers saying the coupon is fradulent.


-----------------------------------------

I didn't forget those Zoo, but the person I was replying to only mentioned game deals

[Skylander7]

I'm assuming that this is pertaining primarily to PC, DS, and PSP games..

This is a forum, which will have little legal liability for particular users claiming to have obtained pirated copies. The files are not being shared, transferred, or hosted here... therefore, I believe that a neutral standpoint should be taken in discussing a game as long as the means to participate in pirating it are not hosted on this site.

Furthermore.. MSRP of a video game is what you call a price floor. The higher a price floor is set above market equilibrium... a price that the market, or consumers, feel the price asked is worth the value considered by the market.. people are going to find alternative means to obtain it. It's simple economics.

You see fewer instances of PS3, Wii, or 360 pre-release pirating due to a hardened degree of security. The ease of obtaining cracked PC games is not the sole reason of the failing PC gaming market.. it is the lack of program optimization for older components (let me release this game and EXPECT you to buy a new GPU), less marketing support, etc etc.

I say leave the ethical discussion of pirating in the vs. forum.. and discussion of a game.. regardless of the means it was obtained.. alone. If the means to obtain a pirated game are discussed, do what we've always done.. leave it for the mods to have something to do.

[dakrzone]

I do understand that some will try to act coy and love the attention they get by posting their reviews early and of course the endless "how'd you get it already?" questions will come. But ultimately it's just a review. Besides street dates do get broken early sometimes, especially with small mom and pop stores.

Lastly, this is the internet, no one in the real world cares how cool your internet friends think you are! That's just sad! :cry:

[botticus]

The Target $10 coupon scans or the $5 off $25 toy coupon?

Umm, no.

That's why every Target near me(Target's birthplace) has signs near the weekly ad, and ALL registers saying the coupon is fradulent.


That's part on Target for programming the coupon badly to allow the coupon to take $5 off ANY $25+ order, and part the fact that people Photoshopped it to remove the "toy" portion. If it had actually been restricted to items in the toy department (which doesn't include video games) I don't think you'd have seen them (or the internet at large) give two shits about it.

But if you'd like to start community polls regarding those topics as well, I'm sure you'd be more than welcome to. I might just vote no on those too!

[MillerTime2523]

Finally here is a question for the CAG community:

Is there any difference if someone pirates a game or buys it used from Gamestop for the games publisher?

:-k
/thread.


Yes vote for me.

[dboy81]

So the Target 360 $10 coupon, CC $40 off $200, and numerous other coupon scans are legitimate?

:-k

I see what you are getting at, but I don't think it really applies to this discussion. Your argument revolves around CAGers trying to get over on cashiers/stores using existing tools, which is yet another discussion but not the same as tacitly condoning piracy. We can talk about the right and wrong of coupon scans, but the bottom line with that is you are not actively stealing property with a coupon scan.

In order to achieve an apples to apples comparison, you would have to debate something like creating a non-existent coupon from scratch and trying to pass it off as legit. That is an active intention to defraud, just like piracy is.

Nevertheless, I don't think your analogy applies here. It certainly is worthy of its own discussion, but not in this vein.

[fugazi70]

Finally here is a question for the CAG community:

Is there any difference if someone pirates a game or buys it used from Gamestop for the games publisher?

:-k

Yes there is a difference, when you purchase a game you are obtaining a license to use it based on the copyright agreement between purchaser and publisher. You are buying permission to run their program. If you sale it to gamestop you are selling your license. If another person comes they are buying the license from gamestop. The reality is that they don't have to do that. They can say it’s a license that is solely for the original purchaser and its void if sold. But anyways what has the pirate done? Has he called long distance accruing a large phone bill to download the game..(not that it would be an excuse) no they sit back on the bandwidth of his neighbors so not only does he rip off his neighbors but the publisher also. Which in turn will rip off everyone as development cost rise as there are fewer buyers.

Look at the Amiga,Atari,dreamcast,3do etc and you will see dead systems mainly in part of piracy.

[crystalklear64]

Look at the Amiga,Atari,dreamcast,3do etc and you will see dead systems mainly in part of piracy.
Then how do you explain the success of DS?

[RollingSkull]

Oh, and as if encouraging people to only buy video games below profit margins for retailers is any BETTER for the industry. GET OVER YOURSELVES and stop pretending that this is FOR THE GOOD OF THE VIDEO GAMING INDUSTRY. The very nature of this site gives lie to that.

Moreover, for all this talk of the boogeyman "tacit acceptance of piracy," will we be required to sign and/or recite daily a pledge of piracy condemnation, just to make sure our bona fides are covered?

I see what you are getting at, but I don't think it really applies to this discussion. Your argument revolves around CAGers trying to get over on cashiers/stores using existing tools, which is yet another discussion but not the same as tacitly condoning piracy. We can talk about the right and wrong of coupon scans, but the bottom line with that is you are not actively stealing property with a coupon scan.

In order to achieve an apples to apples comparison, you would have to debate something like creating a non-existent coupon from scratch and trying to pass it off as legit. That is an active intention to defraud, just like piracy is.

Nevertheless, I don't think your analogy applies here. It certainly is worthy of its own discussion, but not in this vein.
I find that argument as convincing as the countless arguments to give ethical cover to piracy. Taking advantage of a business's mistake is still acting in bad faith, taking from them profits in deals they do not advertise and do not intend to offer, and only avoid recourse because they don't want to deal with the hassle involved in it.

There is not a single CAGer out there who goes into this crap not knowing it is a glitch. Splitting hairs on that end is no different than splitting hairs on if it is possible to "steal" a series of 1s and 0s that you wouldn't buy anyway etc etc etc.

[Leggo]

And where in this thread do you get the idea that cheapyd and cag will be sponsoring piracy? Do you think they're going to give away a stack of R4s on the next CAGcast? WTF?

Well, once the results are let known, effectively he will be.

"Results are in, and it looks like review of pirated games are okay."

[dboy81]

Oh, and as if encouraging people to only buy video games below profit margins for retailers is any BETTER for the industry. GET OVER YOURSELVES and stop pretending that this is FOR THE GOOD OF THE VIDEO GAMING INDUSTRY. The very nature of this site gives lie to that.

Moreover, for all this talk of the boogeyman "tacit acceptance of piracy," will we be required to sign and/or recite daily a pledge of piracy condemnation, just to make sure our bona fides are covered?


I find that argument as convincing as the countless arguments to give ethical cover to piracy. Taking advantage of a business's mistake is still acting in bad faith, taking from them profits in deals they do not advertise and do not intend to offer, and only avoid recourse because they don't want to deal with the hassle involved in it.

There is not a single CAGer out there who goes into this crap not knowing it is a glitch. Splitting hairs on that end is no different than splitting hairs on if it is possible to "steal" a series of 1s and 0s that you wouldn't buy anyway etc etc etc.


Whaaaa?

[RollingSkull]

Whaaaa?
Piracy = stealing
Defrauding a retailer CAG style = stealing
Piracy = Defrauding a retailer CAG style

You know, to avoid the "tacit acceptance of piracy" maybe we should just wordfilter the word piracy and related terms. That sort of censorship has been shown to take care of trouble issues in the past.

[fugazi70]

Then how do you explain the success of DS?

Hmm lets see I believe the paying fan base exceeds the piracy fan base. With the systems I mentioned they had more pirates than buyers. But as to the original quote ... a pirate has put in zero cents where the original buyer of the software has put in some money into the pot and other rebuyers later again have put money into the pot.

[pimpinc333]

Hmm lets see I believe the paying fan base exceeds the piracy fan base. With the systems I mentioned they had more pirates than buyers. But as to the original quote ... a pirate has put in zero cents where the original buyer of the software has put in some money into the pot and other rebuyers later again have put money into the pot.

So it's not pirarcy that killed the "Amiga,Atari,dreamcast,3do etc" more like they didn't have a wide enough fan base or supporters behind it. If people aren't supporting the system and getting behind it won't it fail either way?

[Kayden]

Fuck that.
Piracy = stealing
Defrauding a retailer CAG style = stealing
Piracy = Defrauding a retailer CAG style

You know, to avoid the "tacit acceptance of piracy" maybe we should just wordfilter the word piracy and related terms. That sort of censorship has been shown to take care of trouble issues in the past.

[Neo]

I voted no.

[morph3us]

its kind of close minded to just say no, i played halo 3, GTA4 and rockband 2 before release date, and i just turned around and bought it at full price ( actually got collectors editions of them) so for people to say that i am hurting the gaming industry are ignorant. I think a good game gets a good review, regardless if you are a press person or pirate. So gaming community rest assured, for me pirating is more like playing a long demo, and deciding whether it was worth buying, and will only hurt companies that make crap games and sell the for 60 dollars

[zewone]

Just did some Googling.. wow, I was totally unaware it had become so easy. I mean.. whenever you pirate/crack, you have a tradeoff.. like no connectivity to servers for updates or multiplayer. So.. since a major portion of Rock Band II is downloadable content, I think a major portion of the fans will end up buying it at retail eventually.


A burned game has the same functionality as a retail game, so it can access servers/Live.

360 games aren't "cracked". They are just copies of the retail DVD.

[mykevermin]

Just did some Googling.. wow, I was totally unaware it had become so easy. I mean.. whenever you pirate/crack, you have a tradeoff.. like no connectivity to servers for updates or multiplayer. So.. since a major portion of Rock Band II is downloadable content, I think a major portion of the fans will end up buying it at retail eventually.

This generation of Xbox piracy ain't the same. At the risk of getting too close to talking about piracy, with the 360, you aren't adding a new firmware to the motherboard (like the Xbox Media Center or whatever it was called on the original dude). The 360 isn't "modded" in the traditional sense. In a way, you're basically getting one part of the machine drunk and coaxing it into thinking that a burned DVD = a store original.

This way, you're using the original 360 dashboard and everything else. As far as I can tell, it's indistinguishable from a regular 360. That goes for online play and everything (unlike with the original Xbox, where mod chips were able to be detected online and accounts banned).

Funny how things change as we move up a generation.

But, yeah, short story long is that 360 piracy is crazy all over the place. Take a minute and scour the 360 usernames of the OTT regulars (those who aren't yet savvy enough to delete them from their CAG profiles, or savvy enough to turn privacy settings on so you can't see what they have been playing).

You'll see folks playing RB2 - at least 10 or more people. The same people who manage to have, it would appear, an unlimited supply of funds based on the number of new releases they play each week, and also great hook ups, based on how they consistently get the newest titles a week ahead of time.

Oh, me, porbrecito. I called out the OTT. They're pirates. Whoop-dee-doo. Go fuckin' cry about it.

[Skylander7]

A burned game has the same functionality as a retail game, so it can access servers/Live.

360 games aren't "cracked". They are just copies of the retail DVD.

I'm still looking into it (just takes a little while in employing my methods of bypassing our proxy blocks @ work).

So it doesn't require any changes to the 360 firmware that would result in adding risk to bricking the system or getting blocked from Live? I thought there was a digital signature on each disc that the 360 picked up quickly if it was tampered with (such as attempting to bypass media authentication)?

I'd say this.. if somebody would put the same amount of effort into cracking the Zune and its craptacular software & firmware.....

[zewone]

Oh, me, porbrecito. I called out the OTT. They're pirates. Whoop-dee-doo. Go fuckin' cry about it.

:lol: Are you okay?

[lordwow]

I would be interested to see the results of this poll at some point in the future.

[zewone]

I would be interested to see the results of this poll at some point in the future.

This poll will close on 09-18-2008 at 07:33 AM

[E*Master]

The problem with that argument is that buying used games DOES help support the publisher, at least indirectly. GameStop and EB make a significant portion of their profit from used games. Without the sale of used games, chances are good the chain wouldn't be able to survive, which would kill the only national video game chain we have. Lousy business practices aside, if GameStop vanished it'd have a very significant effect on the publishers and the gaming industry as a whole.

There's a reason why you've never seen a store that sells new games and new games only, and that's because the profit margin on new titles and consoles isn't enough to keep them in business. And no, stores like Best Buy and Target may not sell used games, but they also carry a lot of non-gaming merchandise as well.

Again, though, this is completely unrelated to the original topic of discussion. This doesn't have anything to do with whether people should be allowed to discuss on CAG early impressions from pirated games.
Agreed (to the last paragraph) but I think that we both have a different idea of what "supporting the publisher" means.

Supporting them Morally may motivate the people who work very hard on them but in the end all that matters is what's in the bank as this ultimately determines if there will be a sequel or not. Look. Do you think they they would not have anounced a sequel to some of those garbage DS games that are out there (like the bratz sequels or Vet sims) unless they made some sort of profit and lots of it to have it be feasable to produce a sequel. I don;t think it was the Moral support since those games usually get bad reviews all the time.

This would also not explain how it is ok for gamestop or block bastard Video to buy your games for practically nothing and on top of that, at times worthless store credits when they will orivude a minimal discount of 5 lousy dollars on a game (or 4.50 american). I know this is kind of off the original debate but I just don't see there being anything wrong with piracy. If I DL a Game and I have and I play it for more than 6 days straight I go out and buy it as it seems the publisher deserves my money or if I played the game a while and then see it cheap enough I buy it even if I do not play it again for a while. I see Piracy as a free rental. If I like it I buy it. If not then I discard or delete the sourcefile.

Sometimes systems benfit from Piracy. Perfect example is the PSP. Sony is moving hardware left right and center. And trust me, they need the money! Alright maybe not games but to be honst it's great for playing roms and homebrew apps which are awesome. The last game I bought for my psp was the SNK collection and before that the metal slug collection because they were worth my money. Most of the PSP games I play are garbage and I don't keep either. I don't see why I should support a publisher that makes shitty games. Oh but I can take the game to Gestappo and get 5 cents for a games that I purchased for 29 bucks. (I know I am over exaggerating).

Although Piracy is wrong morally I still think that it is a good way to evaluate a game that you have no intention of keeping and if you do, you know what you are buying.

[munch]

8-)

[IAmTheCheapestGamer]

The problem with that argument is that buying used games DOES help support the publisher, at least indirectly. GameStop and EB make a significant portion of their profit from used games. Without the sale of used games, chances are good the chain wouldn't be able to survive, which would kill the only national video game chain we have. Lousy business practices aside, if GameStop vanished it'd have a very significant effect on the publishers and the gaming industry as a whole.

I certainly would not cry a single tear if both Gamestop and EA Games suddenly went belly up one day. It wouldn't affect me buying my games from Target, Kmart or Toys R'Us on clearance, which is the only way I've bought most of my games in recent months/years.


This would also not explain how it is ok for gamestop or block bastard Video to buy your games for practically nothing and on top of that, at times worthless store credits when they will orivude a minimal discount of 5 lousy dollars on a game (or 4.50 american). I know this is kind of off the original debate but I just don't see there being anything wrong with piracy. If I DL a Game and I have and I play it for more than 6 days straight I go out and buy it as it seems the publisher deserves my money or if I played the game a while and then see it cheap enough I buy it even if I do not play it again for a while. I see Piracy as a free rental. If I like it I buy it. If not then I discard or delete the sourcefile.

If you only trade games when it benefits you(like when there's a good flippable game or three on sale/clearance someplace), then you CAN exploit the trade-in system and actually make something from your used games. That's the ONLY time I EVER trade in games, is when I know I'm making at least 40% more than I paid for them.

As far as piracy goes, the only time I'd consider it myself is when it's a game that wasn't officially released that I wanted to play(see my avatar for the only game I've ever thought about pirating). Otherwise, I just wait for clearances or sales to buy anymore(or if I have credit I made from flipping games).

[Strell]

Sometimes systems benfit from Piracy. Perfect example is the PSP. Sony is moving hardware left right and center. And trust me, they need the money! Alright maybe not games but to be honst it's great for playing roms and homebrew apps which are awesome.

That doesn't help them much for at least a few reasons.

1) Most companies don't make much money on their hardware, but on the software. Losing software sales is suicide. Most situations even dictate that hardware sales actually *lose* money, although I doubt this is the case with the PSP.

2) Developers will be less willing to put games on a system that historically doesn't move software. This is exacerbated if they feel piracy is rampant. PSP titles are gradually slowing, with less big titles and less RPGs. Most newer titles are migrating to the DS, which has had an explosion of RPGs lately.

3) No company gets money from roms or homebrew.

So no, it really doesn't benefit Sony much at all.

[darthbudge]

That doesn't help them much for at least a few reasons.

1) Most companies don't make much money on their hardware, but on the software. Losing software sales is suicide. Most situations even dictate that hardware sales actually *lose* money, although I doubt this is the case with the PSP.

2) Developers will be less willing to put games on a system that historically doesn't move software. This is exacerbated if they feel piracy is rampant. PSP titles are gradually slowing, with less big titles and less RPGs. Most newer titles are migrating to the DS, which has had an explosion of RPGs lately.

3) No company gets money from roms or homebrew.

So no, it really doesn't benefit Sony much at all.

What you just said are valid points, but I have to disagree with the end of point 2. The DS has fairly rampant piracy, it is by far the easiest of systems to pirate games on, and because of this more people do it. Yet still, the DS sells like hotcakes.

[ratzombie]

Piracy is just as rampant on the DS as it is on the PSP and I personally haven't seen any diminish of game sales.

Edit: You beat me to it.

[Strell]

What you just said are valid points, but I have to disagree with the end of point 2. The DS has fairly rampant piracy, it is by far the easiest of systems to pirate games on, and because of this more people do it. Yet still, the DS sells like hotcakes.

But the software sales of the DS absolutely trump the PSP in spades. That's the difference. To act like poor software sales don't scare away developers - which is the point the point - is silly. And this is especially apparent when you look at the last month or so for the DS - tons of RPGs being announced, including big daddies like Tales and Phantasy Star, to say nothing of Dragon Quest, Chrono Trigger, and other franchises like Dragonball.

Homeboy up there was saying that the PSP having piracy is a good thing, and then proceeds to say people are buying the machine solely for piracy. That ain't happening with the DS, unless we're talking about obvious groups of people who only use it for that. I guess another way to put it is that the degree on the PSP versus the DS seems to be hurting the PSP more. They might be equal for all I know, or the DS might even have MORE piracy, but it sure as hell isn't stopping the gravy train in near the manner it is for the Sony counterpart.

[zewone]

I don't think piracy is hurting either system as much as people like to think.

Like you said, the DS is selling very well (software and hardware) and it's the easiest to pirate games on.

The PSPs lack of similar sales, has nothing (or very, very little) to do with piracy.

Look at the 360.

The 360 is easy to pirate on, and the PS3 can't play pirated games, yet the 360 beats the PS3 in hardware and software sales.

[Strell]

The PSPs lack of similar sales, has nothing (or very, very little) to do with piracy.


For someone who was bitching about people talking about stuff not related to this thread, you sure are doing it a lot.

The PSPs lack of sales has to do with software selling poorly, or software not being made for it, or whatever reason the developers around aren't pushing the system that much. Again, homeboy up there was talking about how piracy HELPS the PSP, and I'm pointing out that it doesn't help that much. I'll even be fair and say it probably helps in the same quantity it hurts, but the point is that it might interrupt the software channel, which WOULD hurt everything else.


Look at the 360.

The 360 is easy to pirate on, and the PS3 can't play pirated games, yet the 360 beats the PS3 in hardware and software sales.

That's for a huge number of other reasons, piracy being one of the last and smallest bullet points, as well as one of the least applicable. This is an entirely different discussion and you know it.

[zewone]

For someone who was bitching about people talking about stuff not related to this thread, you sure are doing it a lot.

The PSPs lack of sales has to do with software selling poorly, or software not being made for it, or whatever reason the developers around aren't pushing the system that much. Again, homeboy up there was talking about how piracy HELPS the PSP, and I'm pointing out that it doesn't help that much. I'll even be fair and say it probably helps in the same quantity it hurts, but the point is that it might interrupt the software channel, which WOULD hurt everything else.



That's for a huge number of other reasons, piracy being one of the last and smallest bullet points, as well as one of the least applicable. This is an entirely different discussion and you know it.
I'm contributing to an already useless thread. This thread has never been on topic.

I'm not arguing against you, I'm just saying everyone who thinks piracy is ruining the industry, is blowing it out of proportion. Sure, it's not helping, and it's definitely hurting it, but it's not doing so at a noticeable enough ratio to where it's actually a problem.

Most of my so called "bitching", was at the fact that almost no one in here knows what they are talking about.

[ratzombie]

But the DS has owned the PSP in terms of sales since both have come out, whether it be familiarity with a Nintendo handheld or the price of the PSP is hard to say. But hardware sales will typically dictate where software developers will go to. It's not piracy hurting the PSP sales, it's a combination of things.

[seventh_sage]

Im not totally sold one way or another. But one thing i thought about is that even if they don't get to post it early that's not gonna keep them from pirating it & then posting right away after it is released. So i don't know for sure what is better.

[Strell]

I'm not arguing against you, I'm just saying everyone who thinks piracy is ruining the industry, is blowing it out of proportion. Sure, it's not helping, and it's definitely hurting it, but it's not doing so at a noticeable enough ratio to where it's actually a problem.

I don't think it's ruining it either, much in the same way I don't see Linux ruining the widespread usage of Windows - it requires some amount of effort that most people A) don't care to know about, and B) won't exert. And since ruination would imply something near total-meltdown, then yes, it's not ruining it.


Most of my so called "bitching", was at the fact that almost no one in here knows what they are talking about.

Yawn.

But the DS has owned the PSP in terms of sales since both have come out, whether it be familiarity with a Nintendo handheld or the price of the PSP is hard to say. But hardware sales will typically dictate where software developers will go to. It's not piracy hurting the PSP sales, it's a combination of things.

My point is that it seems like everyone in the gaming scene is only using the PSP for less-than-non-pirate reasons, and that is how they'd sell it to their friends. Hell, almost everyone on here seems to think the same about the PSP, since it's heralded more as a portable game library device rather than a dedicated-to-UMD-games device.

If it's reached that level of saturation in gaming circles (or at least as it is perceived and implied on here), then that can disrupt things. That's all I'm saying.

[zewone]

I know, I enjoy reading ignorance too.

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/8697/completelyvalidarguemenzx2.jpg

[Leggo]

Look at the Amiga,Atari,dreamcast,3do etc and you will see dead systems mainly in part of piracy.

More like pisspoor management and horrible, horrible business decisions.

Piracy killed 3DO? ...REALLY? Funny, I thought it was the fact they were trying to sell a console for $700 in 1990s money. That's more than $1050 today. Would you buy a console for that much now? Maybe Sony can charge that much for the PS4, and then you can blame low sales on piracy.

[bigdaddybruce44]

I love when people lie to themselves and act like piracy is anything but a negative for the industry. You already ruined PC gaming, and the consoles will be next.

[Skylander7]

Yeah.. umm... the argument about the 3DO, Atari, Amiga, etc etc... c'mon.. technology didn't exist at that point for the home enthusiast to easily flash cartridges at the scale we have today with saving ROM's or burning discs.. it's not relevant. They failed for numerous bad business decisions.. look it up.

I can sit here and argue how companies shoot themselves in the foot for overhyping a game with deceptive marketing (ahem... Too Human).. when it's released, nobody buys the damned thing at full MSRP because it sucks. Yeah, a small cult following may love the thing and say that getting an illegal copy of the game is what hurt sales, it hurts the publisher, etc etc... but guess what, the mediocre price will hit $16.96. CAG's will see it.. go ape.. and buy it up on clearance. Why? It's a more realistic price point in terms of the value we consider it to be worthy of purchasing.

So.. developers, publishers, etc... THEY'RE BUSINESSES. Businesses grow or fail all the time. Something like Double Fine.. hell, I love those games. However, somebody makes a BUSINESS decision not to apply proper marketing/promotion behind the product. Or, the mainstream audience is too stupid to get the humor. How can the next product sell more copies? Have a dumbed down presentation, alienate your core fanbase.. but appeal more to the mainstream and move units.

So this whining about stuff like "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh... Clover closed because somebody downloaded God Hand."... you're letting your emotions cloud your judgement based on facts of economics and business. Yes.. that’s a hypothetical scenario.

Look.. this thread is getting more out of touch on if and why we should DISALLOW censorship on a community that has thrived on the lack thereof.. and more into the ethical dilemma of downloading and playing a game for free or not.

I see no legal ramifications of allowing discussion of pirated games or early releases to continue on this site.. only positives. When it gets into hosting methods of obtaining said games.. that's when the line is crossed. I'm all about keeping censorship as far away as possible from this board.. don't fix it if it ain't broken.

Half of you on your high horse about "you're stealing money from the publisher/developer" etc etc.. would pull that corn cob out of your asses if you were faced with the situation of a deal posting to where you could buy a new Gears of War/Metroid/Ratchet and Clank game for half price 3 weeks prior to release. Getting personal satisfaction upon the negligence of some business is what we get off on around here on CAG... do you think retailers enjoy selling a game that has held valuable retail space for years at 1/4th the price it originally sold at to a bunch of deal hunters with lists?? Hell no.. it isn't profitable. Please.. tell me how many of you bought Okami again on Wii to support Clover and the "beauty and originality of the game" at launch... and how many of you are chomping at the bit for it to hit $16.96 at Circuit City????

There... I say keep the censorship out.. a bunch of game fans on a deal forum discussing a game download IS NOT going to crush an industry that's over-saturated with alternatives, full of piss-poor products (both software and hardware), and has more likelihood to take losses than achieve gains due to a questionable certainty of return on investment in the launch of a new product. Jesus tapdancing Christ… if only oil companies or banks had people crying over when they have to shut their doors or get acquired by bigger companies over making piss poor business choices as badly as they do when a developer closes its doors and its rabid fan base goes nuts…

[Trakan]

Stop.

[Skylander7]

By the way... I'm not all that passionate about this... but all that typing just got me out of having to go to the store under the excuse of "I can't go to the store right now dear, I'm typing an important email to somebody at work." :)

Score!!!! Resume countdown to watching USC get their ass kicked tomorrow...