The Treasury officially confirms the $700b number was pulled out of their ass

[Dead of Knight]

http://www.forbes.com/home/2008/09/23/bailout-paulson-congress-biz-beltway-cx_jz_bw_0923bailout.html

In fact, some of the most basic details, including the $700 billion figure Treasury would use to buy up bad debt, are fuzzy.

"It's not based on any particular data point," a Treasury spokeswoman told Forbes.com Tuesday. "We just wanted to choose a really large number."

....

[bigdaddy]

The number was pulled out of their ass...

Hmmm...

Isn't the money coming from the same place?

[Friend of Sonic]

http://www.forbes.com/home/2008/09/23/bailout-paulson-congress-biz-beltway-cx_jz_bw_0923bailout.html



....

LOL! Oh, wow. Just take whatever number sounds good. I wonder when a zombie invasion will come and finish us off--we're taking too long doing it ourselves.

[mykevermin]

Hahaha. I fuckin' give up with politics, man.

Let the market collapse. The country deserves it, the government deserves it. We're a nation of fuckin' FOOLS, being confronted with the consequences of our foolishness.

Alternately, that's one 'spensive Band-Aid.

[Msut77]

Do these people ever even listen to themselves?

Are they aware of how they sound?

[JolietJake]

I can pull numbers out of thin air too, can i have a job at the treasury?

[Dead of Knight]

The country deserves it, the government deserves it. We're a nation of fuckin' FOOLS, being confronted with the consequences of our foolishness.


I'd say MOST of the country deserves it. Then there's people like a lot of us on CAG who budget their money, pay their bills on time, save money for retirement, and perform their civic duties with care. All the responsible people are gonna get fucked along with the fools, which is bullshit, but inevitable at this point. Oh well.

[ITDEFX]

My dad retired last year, my mom is about 3 years from her retirement. Hmm maybe I should put less into my 401k instead of 10% of my check :|

[Friend of Sonic]

My dad retired last year, my mom is about 3 years from her retirement. Hmm maybe I should put less into my 401k instead of 10% of my check :|
Put ten percent of your paycheck towards baseball cards. Because, in the dystopian future people will use baseball cards as currency.

[ITDEFX]

Put ten percent of your paycheck towards baseball cards. Because, in the dystopian future people will use baseball cards as currency.

lol.

No seriously, now that I am thinking about it... we CAGs might have to be more tighter with our money and instead be forced to *gasp*, buy used games from EB :O

[thrustbucket]

Hahaha. I fuckin' give up with politics, man.

Let the market collapse. The country deserves it, the government deserves it. We're a nation of fuckin' FOOLS, being confronted with the consequences of our foolishness.


This is how I'm starting to feel as well.

This country needs a good shaking up. And at least an economic one isn't an outright violent one.

[GuilewasNK]

Never forget the 10th Rule of Acquisition...

Greed is eternal.

[bigdaddy]

Hahaha. I fuckin' give up with politics, man.

Let the market collapse. The country deserves it, the government deserves it. We're a nation of fuckin' FOOLS, being confronted with the consequences of our foolishness.

YAY!

I have felt this way since John Kerry was named the guy running against Bush, he's an idiot. Every passing day it grow until about 18 months ago. I'm now hoping McCain wins and a nuclear war breaks out, the human race deserves to die.

[Friend of Sonic]

YAY!
I'm now hoping McCain wins and a nuclear war breaks out, the human race deserves to die.
Not until I play Final Fantasy VII. It'd be criminal if I died without playing it.

[mykevermin]

the human race deserves to die.

I wouldn't take it that far, but a little suffering might be in order.

[Dead of Knight]

Not until I play Final Fantasy VII. It'd be criminal if I died without playing it.

Nah, that game's an overrated piece of shit. Don't worry about it, the apocalypse will not be postponed for you.

[bigdaddy]

Not until I play Final Fantasy VII. It'd be criminal if I died without playing it.

I'm fine with dieing before playing it. :)

[KingBroly]

This is how I'm starting to feel as well.

This country needs a good shaking up. And at least an economic one isn't an outright violent one.

It will turn violent. Human instinct in this country will go primal.

[Friend of Sonic]

Nah, that game's an overrated piece of shit. Don't worry about it, the apocalypse will not be postponed for you.
I played through the first level for about ten minutes. I thought it had aged terribly, but my Squeenix friends tell me I'm wrong.
Is it okay to die now?!

[level1online]

Let the market collapse. The country deserves it, the government deserves it. We're a nation of fuckin' FOOLS, being confronted with the consequences of our foolishness.


This is how I'm starting to feel as well.

This country needs a good shaking up. And at least an economic one isn't an outright violent one.

YAY!
I'm now hoping McCain wins and a nuclear war breaks out, the human race deserves to die.


WRONG! And the quote below is the reason why...

It will turn violent. Human instinct in this country will go primal.

Now think...

what will pudgy, middle class, yuppies like us do to survive?

think!!!

Run into the woods and fight like the Wolverines in Red Dawn???

Leave your famliy behind and cross the border into Mexico or Canada?

HELL NO! If things truly get hyper volatile in this country (ie Children of Men (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0206634/) style), I see about 50% of us either joining the military/police force or becoming a prison guard at a work camp. Or at the very least becoming propagandists, engineers or political tattletales for the ruling coporate enities. You'll assist in the enslavement of your fellow man just to make the credit card payment on your brand spankin new, next-gen, XboxPure.

Hopefully I am amongst the other 50% of you guys. :D

[thrustbucket]

WRONG! And the quote below is the reason why...



Now think...

what will pudgy, middle class, yuppies like us do to survive?

think!!!

Run into the woods and fight like the Wolverines in Red Dawn???

Leave your famliy behind and cross the border into Mexico or Canada?

HELL NO! If things truly get hyper volatile in this country (ie Children of Men (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0206634/) style), I see about 50% of us either joining the military/police force or becoming a prison guard at a work camp. Or at the very least becoming propagandists, engineers or political tattletales for the ruling coporate enities. You'll assist in the enslavement of your fellow man just to make the credit card payment on your brand spankin new, next-gen, XboxPure.

Hopefully I am amongst the other 50% of you guys. :D

You've disturbingly given this sort of thing way too much thought.

[level1online]

You've disturbingly given this sort of thing way too much thought.

No, I didn't think it, I Remote-Viewed it. :hot:

[mykevermin]

Sometimes I wish this "Tank Girl-esque future" paranoia of level1 turns out to be right.

Because I want to see the expression on his face when this nation becomes a prison state and he realizes that he failed at warning us and doing anything to stop it.

I'll work for Water and Power for the rest of my days, living in fear of the Rippers, just to think that satisfying, satisfying thought.

[fatherofcaitlyn]

Level1, sit tight. I'll try saving the future tomorrow.

[thrustbucket]

No, I didn't think it, I Remote-Viewed it. :hot:

Oh shit. You must know someone that worked for the DIA during project stargate! ;)

As a side note, I got an interesting forward today that I won't copy, because it's too long, but it basically said this:

IF congress is considering conjuring, say, $85 billion or so for bailouts.

And IF you assume there are 200,000,000 people over the age of 18 in this country (a good guess).

Then what congress should really do to save the economy is divy that 800b to everyone as the ultimate economic stimulus package.

That's around $425,000 to everyone over 18. Taxes will be around 127,000 going right back to the gov (about 25b right back to the gov). A husband/wife team would be getting about 595,000.

People could pay off debt, mortgages, change their lives for the better, buy healthcare, new cars, money for college. All the while, the economy on many fronts would be helped, instead of rewarding corrupt organizations that already have our debt.

Do we really trust these greedy super banks over our fellow Americans, to use what is OUR money to begin with? If we are going to go into debt, maybe it should be for each person in this country to help make a difference.

Anyway, I am no economist, so I am sure it's a fantasy on many levels, but it sure seems a lot more "fair" on the surface.

OR: Why not just issue vouture's to each home owner for several hundred grand to pay off their house? Wouldn't that be the same as "Bailing out" the mortgage company?

[trq]

Oh, those crazy Feds.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/Amanojaku/loltreasury.jpg

Hahaha. I fuckin' give up with politics, man.

Let the market collapse. The country deserves it, the government deserves it. We're a nation of fuckin' FOOLS, being confronted with the consequences of our foolishness.

This.

Nah, that game's an overrated piece of shit.

Yeah, and this too.

[RAMSTORIA]

Oh shit. You must know someone that worked for the DIA during project stargate! ;)

As a side note, I got an interesting forward today that I won't copy, because it's too long, but it basically said this:

IF congress is considering conjuring, say, $85 billion or so for bailouts.

And IF you assume there are 200,000,000 people over the age of 18 in this country (a good guess).

Then what congress should really do to save the economy is divy that 800b to everyone as the ultimate economic stimulus package.

That's around $425,000 to everyone over 18. Taxes will be around 127,000 going right back to the gov (about 25b right back to the gov). A husband/wife team would be getting about 595,000.

People could pay off debt, mortgages, change their lives for the better, buy healthcare, new cars, money for college. All the while, the economy on many fronts would be helped, instead of rewarding corrupt organizations that already have our debt.

Do we really trust these greedy super banks over our fellow Americans, to use what is OUR money to begin with? If we are going to go into debt, maybe it should be for each person in this country to help make a difference.

Anyway, I am no economist, so I am sure it's a fantasy on many levels, but it sure seems a lot more "fair" on the surface.

OR: Why not just issue vouture's to each home owner for several hundred grand to pay off their house? Wouldn't that be the same as "Bailing out" the mortgage company?

thats a depressing statistic and im no economist either but id risk my 400k double or nothing that giving that much to every tax payer would help the economy worlds more than the bailouts will.

[MSI Magus]

Hahaha. I fuckin' give up with politics, man.

Let the market collapse. The country deserves it, the government deserves it. We're a nation of fuckin' FOOLS, being confronted with the consequences of our foolishness.

Alternately, that's one 'spensive Band-Aid.

Im with you. Yes I would prefer for things to go on the way they have since its a very comfortable life for me. However im all for a revolution where the government crumbles and the people overthrow it. Things are just so screwed up beyond belief and im terrified to think of the kind of debt my generation is going to have to pay off.

[MSI Magus]

thats a depressing statistic and im no economist either but id risk my 400k double or nothing that giving that much to every tax payer would help the economy worlds more than the bailouts will.

Funny you say this, iv been thinking the same thing. Instead of bailing out these fucking companies why not put the damn money directly into the pockets of consumers. I think a trillion dollars in the pocket of tax payers would result in a whole shit ton of spending spurring the economy. The only problem with it is that it wouldnt teach people any good habits which is needed badly right now. The last thing we need to do is encourage people to keep spending......

[level1online]

IF congress is considering conjuring, say, $85 billion or so for bailouts.

And IF you assume there are 200,000,000 people over the age of 18 in this country (a good guess).

Then what congress should really do to save the economy is divy that 800b to everyone as the ultimate economic stimulus package.

That's around $425,000 to everyone over 18. Taxes will be around 127,000 going right back to the gov (about 25b right back to the gov). A husband/wife team would be getting about 595,000.

Anyway, I am no economist, so I am sure it's a fantasy on many levels, but it sure seems a lot more "fair" on the surface.



ok, i'm no economist either. but if that scenario happened, wouldn't a stick of gum cost like $5,000?

[depascal22]

Can you imagine how many people will be driving around with spinny rims on mini-vans if we gave that much money to the people. Also, the WWE.com store would be shut down until they can fire up more servers and find more kids in Asia and Africa to sew the John Cena shirts.

Hell, if people blew the hundreds of dollars we got this summer, imagine how they'll blow a half million.

Besides the inflation, how would the economy recover from the thousands to millions people that just up and quit their jobs. If someone handed you half a million, would you still clean up shit stains on a toilet or work in 95 degree heat. Then you'll be begging for some Mexicans to come in and do the crappy jobs.

[MSI Magus]

Can you imagine how many people will be driving around with spinny rims on mini-vans if we gave that much money to the people. Also, the WWE.com store would be shut down until they can fire up more servers and find more kids in Asia and Africa to sew the John Cena shirts.

Hell, if people blew the hundreds of dollars we got this summer, imagine how they'll blow a half million.

Besides the inflation, how would the economy recover from the thousands to millions people that just up and quit their jobs. If someone handed you half a million, would you still clean up shit stains on a toilet or work in 95 degree heat. Then you'll be begging for some Mexicans to come in and do the crappy jobs.

It is sad that things would work out that way. Tons of people quiting their jobs and everyone blowing the money. I would be surprised if just a handful of people invested their money. I think id turn around and put as much as I could into my fiancees 401k and 2 roth IRAs, wrap a ton up in CDs and then splurge on maybe $5,000 MAX in games and $5,000-$10,000 for a vacation for my fiancee since she hasn't gotten one since she met me.

[thrustbucket]

ok, i'm no economist either. but if that scenario happened, wouldn't a stick of gum cost like $5,000?

I think that would only happen if the demand for gum exceeded the supply.

[level1online]

Sometimes I wish this "Tank Girl-esque future" paranoia of level1 turns out to be right.

Because I want to see the expression on his face when this nation becomes a prison state and he realizes that he failed at warning us and doing anything to stop it.

I'll work for Water and Power for the rest of my days, living in fear of the Rippers, just to think that satisfying, satisfying thought.

You still don't get it. It's has nothing to do with whether I succeed or not in warning you. It has more to do with my conscience and my relationship with God. If i were to come on this forum and propagate the thought, "Yeah bitches! Let it all burn! You and your children deserve it!", what good would that accomplish?

By coming on here and reminding you that incompetence has nothing to do with our current state of affairs, it'll make you think just a little bit harder about the grid built around us and about your purpose in life.

There's a difference between living in fear, and knowing what's ahead of the curve. All i want is for you guys to be mentally prepared for what's ahead of the curve so you don't have to sink to the lowest levels of depravity in order to survive.

Yes, alot of you guys have pretty good "tyranny detectors", but why is it that you only have it turned on when the opposing party is in office?

[Friend of Sonic]

If America got a bailout, there's no way in hell I'm quitting my job. I'm going to purchase a house for me and my girl, AND keep my cushy job with no fear of financial troubles later on.
But how does that make this situation any different than handing out Zimbabwe dollars? I mean, their situation is entirely different over there. They have nothing. We still have industry.
But, it still scares me we're seemingly printing 700 billion dollars in funny money-- and it's not even an exact amoutn. The treasury can't even be bothered to do the math to try to save money for the nation.

[depascal22]

Except EVERYONE is going to be buying houses. So what happens? Prices go up through the roof for a couple years until the money is spent or socked away. That little house down the street won't be 125k after this happens.
Cruises become overbooked and prices go way up because, well, they can.

Also, everyone's gonna be rushing to buy a bunch of crap but who's gonna stick around to sell it. Everyone's gonna rush to the mall but what happens when the mall is closed because there's no security or anyone to open the stores? What happens when people run out of food because every last minimum wage cashier and bagboy up and quit? What happens when you run out of gas and there isn't anyone to run the station?

Did we all forget the truckers that are the backbone for the economy? How many of them will still leave their families for days or weeks when they just got half a mill? The plan sounds great but would never ever work. You could "import" a million illegal aliens to do the work but that borders dangerously on slavery and would only exacerbate the problems that money can't fix.

[RAMSTORIA]

But, it still scares me we're seemingly printing 700 billion dollars in funny money-- and it's not even an exact amoutn. The treasury can't even be bothered to do the math to try to save money for the nation.

why would that scare you now, weve been doing it for years.

[bmulligan]

I hope everyone managed to fire off a letter or email to their representatives in congress today.

Surely even the communistas among us can see the folly in conjuring this imaginary money into existence with no recourse and no oversight. Giving the treasury and the "Fed" free reign and a blank check will lead to an even bigger disaster.

[nasum]

Here's a better scenario than handing people cash:
I heard on a right wing lunatic talk radio thing the other night that the amount of unsecured mortgage backed securities that Fanny/Freddy are upside down on is something like 4.25 trillion. Now let's say that this relief (corporate welfare) is going to be 700 Billion. This is approximately 1/6th of the amount of bad debt. How about we have Fanny/Freddy go ahead and take that amount and reduce the note on any mortgage by the corresponding amount. Now I know that F/F don't actually OWN the mortgage, but you get the picture. By reducing the loan, the home owner can get their monthly mortgage payment reduced by that same 1/6th as the bailout. If your monthly payment is $1,000 then you'll get an instant break of $166.67 each month to put food on your family or purchase cigarettes. This will prevent the $5,000 stick of gum scenario mentioned above since you won't have such instant wealth attainment by the masses.

While I'm not a gun guy by any stretch of the imagination, this is your 2nd ammendment right here. The government has created a scenario by which they now own your house with fake money. The value of your house has now plummeted because while the owner of the debt has been given a large sum of cash, you're still paying for the original full principle plus the interest. Ergo, if your home was originally valued at $100,000.00 at the time of purchase, and you pay about another $60,000 in interest over the course of 15 years to pay that principle, the bailout increases that amount of cash to roughly $186,666.66 (to use the previous 1/6th rule). Now you want to sell your home that you've paid $186,666.66 for, but since credit is low and there has been a roughly 12% reduction in home prices over the last three years, you're suddenly looking at selling your home for about $88,000. Now the bank has made $100k off of your house and you've lost your ass to the tune of 12 large.

Granted this is INCREDIBLY simplified, but this is more or less what is about to happen. Real Estate has ALWAYS been the backbone of the american economy in terms of investment growth, and now it has just died.

[mykevermin]

I hope everyone managed to fire off a letter or email to their representatives in congress today.

Surely even the communistas among us can see the folly in conjuring this imaginary money into existence with no recourse and no oversight. Giving the treasury and the "Fed" free reign and a blank check will lead to an even bigger disaster.

C'mon, dude. You're always bitching about redistribution of wealth - so isn't it kosher that it's going to be redistributed to the wealthy? I figured you'd have a raging boner for this kind of stuff.

;)

[bmulligan]

C'mon, dude. You're always bitching about redistribution of wealth - so isn't it kosher that it's going to be redistributed to the wealthy? I figured you'd have a raging boner for this kind of stuff.

;)

I'm more of a proponent of philosophical consistency and oppose involuntary re-distribution of wealth for any reason. Especially for investment bankers who've profited off the future earnings of every individual, mortgage paying, taxpaying American.

If anything, I would expect you to wholeheartedly agree with the bailout. Considering the wealthiest 10% of taxpayers pay 90% of income taxes, this will be primarily a redistribution from the Wealthy to the Super-wealthy. The kicker is that it will eventually affect everyone who has to trade with a hyper-inflated currency in the near future.

[Frogurt.man]

It will turn violent. Human instinct in this country will go primal.

Is there a thread on cheap guns?

[mykevermin]

I'm more of a proponent of philosophical consistency and oppose involuntary re-distribution of wealth for any reason. Especially for investment bankers who've profited off the future earnings of every individual, mortgage paying, taxpaying American.

If anything, I would expect you to wholeheartedly agree with the bailout. Considering the wealthiest 10% of taxpayers pay 90% of income taxes, this will be primarily a redistribution from the Wealthy to the Super-wealthy. The kicker is that it will eventually affect everyone who has to trade with a hyper-inflated currency in the near future.

What in tarnation makes you think I'd agree with this?

Also, your goddamned free market got us here, Mr. Philosophical Consistency Simplicity.

Looking at the fucking mess we're in, though, I'm sure you'll have some smarmy and half-hearted explanation for why this isn't "REAL CAPITALISM," and that justifies the failure the same way pretentious college-age ISO brats say the failure of the USSR was the fault of the fact that it wasn't "REAL COMMUNISM."

;)

[thrustbucket]

"Your goddamned free market got us here"

Here we go again.
Myke's "I want my cake and to eat it too" debate neutralizer in full effect.

When you distill the subject of a debate down to the semantics of definition, you might as well just say that God told you it was true. It ends the discussion and makes you as much of a winner of the debate.

Let me guess, I'm sure if we had "Real" socialism or "Real" Democratic party plans in effect a decade ago, all would be well, right?

[MSI Magus]

What in tarnation makes you think I'd agree with this?

Also, your goddamned free market got us here, Mr. Philosophical Consistency Simplicity.

Looking at the fucking mess we're in, though, I'm sure you'll have some smarmy and half-hearted explanation for why this isn't "REAL CAPITALISM," and that justifies the failure the same way pretentious college-age ISO brats say the failure of the USSR was the fault of the fact that it wasn't "REAL COMMUNISM."

;)

This isnt real capitalism and it wasnt real communism. De Regulation can be a good thing......the problem is just they have de regulated all of the wrong god damn things. And I seriously believe that communism could work if it was really done in a way that fits its definition.

[fatherofcaitlyn]

Glass-Steagall was communism?

Hmm.

From this perspective, it looks like common sense.

Of course, the problem is more than just deregulation at the end of Clinton's presidency.

It was also cooking the books to make a $100,000 piece of property look like it was worth $150,000, letting people with credit scores in the low teens take out loans for said overinflated properties and, for good measure, throw in rampant government expenditures for overseas adventures.

[mykevermin]

"Your goddamned free market got us here"

Here we go again.
Myke's "I want my cake and to eat it too" debate neutralizer in full effect.

When you distill the subject of a debate down to the semantics of definition, you might as well just say that God told you it was true. It ends the discussion and makes you as much of a winner of the debate.

Let me guess, I'm sure if we had "Real" socialism or "Real" Democratic party plans in effect a decade ago, all would be well, right?

Bah. I'm opposed to political/philosophical absolutism in any direction. That's just too "George W. Bush" for me.

It's fine to believe in a certain ideology/philosophy politically. But when you're proven wrong over and over again, it's no longer fine to hold fast out of "philosophical consistency."

You know what's philosophical consistency? Not admitting the world is round. Not buying into new technology. Not changing. Not upgrading your video card. Not using new medical techniques. Not believing that the world is changing constantly, both with and without our help.

That's consistency. Consistency is being shown you're wrong and failing to admit or recognize that. Make me wrong. Make me "flip-flop." I learn from my mistakes. I don't continue to stick a fork in the electrical outlet on account of wanting to "stay the course."

(n.b.: and when I say "your free market," you're putting words in my mouth - a tactical claim you're fond of, I should say ; - and ignoring that while I do think it is largely a select group of people in the free market who have consumed too much and exploded like old Mr. Creosote, it is absurd to think that legislative forces aren't involved here).

so don't put words in my mouth. ;)

[bmulligan]

It's fine to believe in a certain ideology/philosophy politically. But when you're proven wrong over and over again, it's no longer fine to hold fast out of "philosophical consistency."


Then it's a good thing I've never been proven wrong, idealistically, that is. At least, not by you.

I'm really at a loss to understand how you think capitalism is the nail in the coffin for this "crisis". It was a Democrat president who signed a law into existence that created the investment banks who traded these sub-prime notes in new markets to begin with.

But primarily, it was the "socialist" agenda during the Carter administration that passed the Community Reinvestment Act.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act. It's exactly the process you have espoused many times to be the answer to the evils of capitalism - provide money and loans to people who can't afford them to begin with in the name of fairness. It's a major factor in the creation of the housing "bubble", or overvalued market that resulted from synthetically engineered demand for housing. Read this quote from the link:

The CRA was passed into law by the 95th United States Congress in 1977 as a result of national grassroots pressure for affordable housing, and despite considerable opposition from the mainstream banking community.[1] Only one banker, Ron Grzywinski from ShoreBank in Chicago, testified in favor of the act.[2] The CRA mandates that each banking institution be evaluated to determine if it has met the credit needs of its entire community. That record is taken into account when the federal government considers an institution's application for deposit facilities, including mergers and acquisitions. The CRA is enforced by the financial regulators (FDIC, OCC, OTS, and FRB).

The bill encouraged the Federal National Mortgage Association, commonly known as Fannie Mae, to enable mortgage companies, savings and loans, commercial banks, credit unions, and state and local housing finance agencies to lend to home buyers. It also encouraged the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation, commonly known as Freddie Mac, to buy mortgages on the secondary market and sell them as mortgage-backed securities on the open market.[3] Due to massive financial losses, on September 7, 2008 the Federal Housing Finance Agency (FHFA) put Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac under the conservatorship of the FHFA.

"Meet the credit needs of the community". It might as well have been crafted by a communist just like you Myke. If anything, providing for need without regard for ability, i.e., socialism, is the primary reason this crisis exists, not capitalism.

[mykevermin]

Then it's a good thing I've never been proven wrong, idealistically, that is. At least, not by you.

Wow. I thought I had the arrogant crown in this forum. Guess I'm wrong. Least I can admit it.

So now the outlawing of "redlining" practices, long proven to not be associated with "lending to the poor," but with "not lending to them dirty black folks," (in other words making the market behave with an invisible hand instead of a bigoted one), is now socialism?

Yow. So you're surely in line with Michelle Bachmann and the other racists on the right who mistake redlining with "lending to people who don't otherwise qualify financially" and not "writing off entire neighborhoods due to racial composition." Which is incorrect; absolutely 100% incorrect. You couldn't be more wrong if your post was about your favorite flavour of pudding.

That we have to enact legislation to have the "free market" BEHAVE like a free market should've been a giant neon clue to you, hombre. Redlining would have sickened Our Dear Friend Adam Smith.

Moreover, you could have read the entire page you posted, which points out that plenty of banks and groups well outside the domain of the CRA were responsible for 2/3rds of subprime loans. Which does a great deal to lift the burden of blame off of Carter and CRA (or at least your accusation of blame) and onto those banks that, in the spirit of free enterprise, opted to engage in these practices themselves.

But, hey, in your naive little world, you can continue to be correct. You'll be proven correct when the free market is REALLY FREE, eh, comrade? ;) ;)

[bmulligan]

Well, myke, perhaps you'd like to take a stab at Freddie and Fannie's role in government sponsored, government guaranteed mortgages then? How exactly are these instruments of government reflective of capitalism whatsoever?

Then maybe you'd like to tackle the reason for relaxing of lending standards at FNMA by Mr. Franklin Raines during the Clinton administration and why the former budget director and FNMA ceo was forced to "retire"

Civil charges were filed against Raines and two other former executives by the OFHEO in which the OFHEO sought $110 million in penalties and $115 million in returned bonuses from the three accused.[7] On April 18, 2008, the government announced a settlement with Raines together with J. Timothy Howard, Fannie's former chief financial officer, and Leanne G. Spencer, Fannie's former controller. The three executives agreed to pay fines totaling about $3 million, which will be paid by Fannie's insurance policies. Raines also agreed to donate the proceeds from the sale of $1.8 million of his Fannie stock and to give up stock options. The stock options however have no value. Raines also gave up an estimated $5.3 million of "other benefits" said to be related to his pension and forgone bonuses.

An editorial in The Wall Street Journal called it a "paltry settlement" which allowed Raines and the other two executives to "keep the bulk of their riches." [9] In 2003 alone, Raines's compensation was over $20 million

This is political cronyism at work here, not capitalism. Not by a longshot.

[bmulligan]

Boy, this just gets easier.

Follow the links from one to the next and you always find strange bedfellows.
James Johnson, a "bundler", contributor, and organizer for the Obama campaign is a board member for Goldman-Sachs AND:

He is also a board member at Goldman Sachs, Gannett Company, Inc., a media holding group, KB Home, a home construction firm, Target Corporation, Temple-Inland, and UnitedHealth Group.

Johnson has also served as chairman of both the Kennedy Center for the Arts (1996-2004) and the Brookings Institution (1994-2003). He is also a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, the American Friends of Bilderberg, the Council on Foreign Relations, and the Trilateral Commission.

On May 22, 2008, Democratic Party officials confidentially divulged that Obama had asked Johnson "to lead the process" for selecting Obama's running mate.[4] On June 4, 2008, Obama announced the formation of a three-person committee to vet vice presidential candidates, including Johnson.[5] However, Johnson soon became a source of controversy when it was reported that he had received loans directly from Angelo Mozilo, the CEO of Countrywide Financial, a company implicated in the U.S. subprime mortgage crisis.[6] Although he was not accused of any wrongdoing and was initially defended by Obama on the grounds that he was simply an unpaid volunteer, Johnson announced he would step down from the vice-presidential vetting position on June 11, 2008, in order to avoid being a distraction to Obama's campaign.


Not incriminating you say? But wait, there's more:

From 1991 to 1998, he served as chairman and chief executive officer of the Federal National Mortgage Association (Fannie Mae), the quasi-public organization that guarantees mortgages for millions of American homeowners. Previously, he was vice chairman of Fannie Mae (1990-1991) and a managing director with Lehman Brothers (1985-1990). An Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight (OFHEO) report[1] from September 2004 found that, during Johnson's tenure as CEO, Fannie Mae had improperly deferred $200 million in expenses. This enabled top executives, including Johnson and his successor, Franklin Raines, to receive substantial bonuses in 1998.[2] A 2006 OFHEO report[3] found that Fannie Mae had substantially under-reported Johnson's compensation. Originally reported as $6-7 million, Johnson actually received approximately $21 million.

Yes, this is the kind of CHANGE we need. It does not resemble capitalism in the slightest, it reeks of favoritism. I suppose you're going to break with your candidate because he'll be in favor of the blank check to the financial industry? Keep telling yourself Barak's the Democrat savior. You'll have to repeat it a couple million times before you'll start believing that lie.

[thrustbucket]

You'll have to repeat it a couple million times before you'll start believing that lie.

Or, after the dollar has crashed, why not just put that slogan on our new currency?

[mykevermin]

So now relaxing standards = government interference in the free market?

Jeeeeezus, boyo. You're trying to have it both ways now, such that government interference in IMPOSING or REMOVING regulations is chopping down your Adam Smith hard-on.

Can't wait to figure out how you'd ever get to your free-market dream, seeing as how the government sure couldn't decide to deregulate itself. That would be a monstrous nightmare in your eyes!

I thought you were a grown-up, man. I'm sorry that I was clearly wrong.

[thrustbucket]

I finally found an elected official that seems to actually get it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S27yitK32ds#

[bmulligan]

So now relaxing standards = government interference in the free market?

Jeeeeezus, boyo. You're trying to have it both ways now, such that government interference in IMPOSING or REMOVING regulations is chopping down your Adam Smith hard-on.

Can't wait to figure out how you'd ever get to your free-market dream, seeing as how the government sure couldn't decide to deregulate itself. That would be a monstrous nightmare in your eyes!

I thought you were a grown-up, man. I'm sorry that I was clearly wrong.


Unfortunately, you're confusing relaxation of restrictions on private enterprise with relaxation of a restriction on government. You are too intelligent to not understand this and are being purposefully obtuse. Restriction on a bad policy or bad government behavior is a good thing, and removing the restriction to allow more bad behavior by government isn't.

Restricting the fountain of money government has been doling out for bad mortgages is a good thing, opening the floodgates is a bad thing. At least, it's why the financial crisis exists today. It has nothing to do with capitalism, it's primary cause is government's intervention into the market, creation of an artificial market and it's control thereof- also known as...... what ?

I'll assume you're still reconciling your support for Barak's impending bid to rescue his friends and backers in the financial industry as the reason you couldn't come up with a better retort than an Adam Smith hard on. Your hate for capitalism isn't in question, but your chosen savior is.

[camoor]

Unfortunately, you're confusing relaxation of restrictions on private enterprise with relaxation of a restriction on government. You are too intelligent to not understand this and are being purposefully obtuse. Restriction on a bad policy or bad government behavior is a good thing, and removing the restriction to allow more bad behavior by government isn't.

Restricting the fountain of money government has been doling out for bad mortgages is a good thing, opening the floodgates is a bad thing. At least, it's why the financial crisis exists today. It has nothing to do with capitalism, it's primary cause is government's intervention into the market, creation of an artificial market and it's control thereof- also known as...... what ?

I'll assume you're still reconciling your support for Barak's impending bid to rescue his friends and backers in the financial industry as the reason you couldn't come up with a better retort than an Adam Smith hard on. Your hate for capitalism isn't in question, but your chosen savior is.

Seems to me your position is that a marketplace without restrictions is the perfect system. Any forum of business that falls a hair short of this is inherently flawed. Therefore because your ideology has never been implemented it follows that your ideology has never been disproved.

However now that a market similar to your brand of cowboy capitalism has failed, you're feeling the heat - what better way to deflect criticism then to make dubious claims of conspiracies for which you have not provided any solid evidence. By citing Obama's relationship with Johnson I assume you're insinuating that Obama, who would have been a Senator for Illinois at the time, was able to setup cherry terms for Fannie Mae. How would he have done this, do you really believe he had that much influence? Really now, who is the one being purposefully obtuse?

[fatherofcaitlyn]

I finally found an elected official that seems to actually get it


So close. Caitlyn was whining. So, I may have missed some of this.

Criminalizing activity from 15 years ago? Only if it was illegal 15 years ago.

An independent commission? Christ, why don't we put Detective TrashCan on the case? A commission is a good way to take 10 years to figure something out and to publish the results.

[thrustbucket]

So close. Caitlyn was whining. So, I may have missed some of this.

Criminalizing activity from 15 years ago? Only if it was illegal 15 years ago.

An independent commission? Christ, why don't we put Detective TrashCan on the case? A commission is a good way to take 10 years to figure something out and to publish the results.

I agree with you. But I'm far more interested in bringing greedy criminals to justice rather than rewarding them and/or letting them off the hook to do it again.

[mykevermin]

Seems to me your position is that a marketplace without restrictions is the perfect system. Any forum of business that falls a hair short of this is inherently flawed. Therefore because your ideology has never been implemented it follows that your ideology has never been disproved.

Which was the basis behind the whole "Communism has never been proven faulty because the USSR/China/Cuba/whatever aren't REAL Communist nations" comparison.

IOW, the whole philosophy is "until things work absolutely, 100% perfectly and according to plan, they won't."

However now that a market similar to your brand of cowboy capitalism has failed, you're feeling the heat - what better way to deflect criticism then to make dubious claims of conspiracies for which you have not provided any solid evidence. By citing Obama's relationship with Johnson I assume you're insinuating that Obama, who would have been a Senator for Illinois at the time, was able to setup cherry terms for Fannie Mae. How would he have done this, do you really believe he had that much influence? Really now, who is the one being purposefully obtuse?

Quick! Deflection by insinuation! Hey! Look over here! Let's change the subject!

That's what's going on. Mention Obama's ties to Fannie/Freddie, and ignore Rick Davis - just for the sole purpose of raising ire and deflecting the heat that his ideology is inherently flawed, full of post-hoc protection, and tautologically fantastic.

[bmulligan]

That's what's going on. Mention Obama's ties to Fannie/Freddie, and ignore Rick Davis - just for the sole purpose of raising ire and deflecting the heat that his ideology is inherently flawed, full of post-hoc protection, and tautologically fantastic.

I wouldn't ignore Rick Davis, OR Wayne Berman, OR John Greene, or the rest of the dirty laundry list. The problem with your faux argument here is that pointing out that McCain has ties to the architects of the financial crisis doesn't negate the fact that Obama draws from the same pool for position, leverage, advice, and money. His ideology, apart from being inherently flawed, is an outright lie.

The other problem with your line of reasoning is that I'm not a McCain supporter. I don't have a partisan firewall preventing me from seeing reality, and don't have to justify my candidate's ties to "washington insiders" by claiming the other side has them too. You can't refute that Obama is simply the latest poster boy for the unseen members of the 'Good-ol-boy' network. He couldn't be farther from representing "real change" so your only option is to attack the other side as more unscrupulous. How plebeian of you.

[mykevermin]

You continue to dodge my points that you're tautological view of the "free market" allows you to be never disproven by virtue of the impossibly idealistic view of what constitutes the "free market" in your eyes.

So I'm going to pisstake by taking the perspective that only outright communism would be the absolute answer to all of our social woes. Once we have a REAL Communist system in place, then you'll see just how ideal it really is.

Oh boy. Better get out my Marx/Engels reader. This ain't gonna be easy, but it sure is going to be fun.

[bmulligan]

I can only really address points that make sense, myke. I didn't realize we were trying to pry out my beliefs in free market capitalism so that you could disprove them. I was arguing the financial crisis was brought on mostly because of a social engineering effort of the federal government and subsequent government sponsorship of known bad "securities", or debt, or notes, or mortgages, or whatever you want to call them. Without these instruments, policies and protections of the federal government, no profit motivated capitalist would have bet his future earnings on sub-prime mortgage bundles, period. Nor would they have been allowed to launder their value through unscrupulous accounting.

I'd never argue that all government controls are unnecessary - just most of them. The writers of our supreme law of the land, obviously more knowledgeable than I, knew well that regulating interstate commerce was a valid power to grant to government. Especially in circumstances such as this, it would be hard to argue that the existence of an entity like the SEC is a bad idea, only that it's use as a political entity is helping a small group of insiders become wealthy at the expense of the typical indebted citizen, and remain wealthy at the expense of the taxpayer.

Government exists primarily to protect people from one another, not to artificially help one person over another. Unfortunately that's what has occurred here.

[level1online]

http://rawstory.com/images/other/bailoutbill-092808.pdf

[level1online]

Monday, September 29th, 2008
The Rich Are Staging a Coup This Morning ...a message from Michael Moore

Friends,

Let me cut to the chase. The biggest robbery in the history of this country is taking place as you read this. Though no guns are being used, 300 million hostages are being taken. Make no mistake about it: After stealing a half trillion dollars to line the pockets of their war-profiteering backers for the past five years, after lining the pockets of their fellow oilmen to the tune of over a hundred billion dollars in just the last two years, Bush and his cronies -- who must soon vacate the White House -- are looting the U.S. Treasury of every dollar they can grab. They are swiping as much of the silverware as they can on their way out the door.

No matter what they say, no matter how many scare words they use, they are up to their old tricks of creating fear and confusion in order to make and keep themselves and the upper one percent filthy rich. Just read the first four paragraphs of the lead story in last Monday's New York Times and you can see what the real deal is:

"Even as policy makers worked on details of a $700 billion bailout of the financial industry, Wall Street began looking for ways to profit from it.

"Financial firms were lobbying to have all manner of troubled investments covered, not just those related to mortgages.

"At the same time, investment firms were jockeying to oversee all the assets that Treasury plans to take off the books of financial institutions, a role that could earn them hundreds of millions of dollars a year in fees.

"Nobody wants to be left out of Treasury's proposal to buy up bad assets of financial institutions."

Unbelievable. Wall Street and its backers created this mess and now they are going to clean up like bandits. Even Rudy Giuliani is lobbying for his firm to be hired (and paid) to "consult" in the bailout.

The problem is, nobody truly knows what this "collapse" is all about. Even Treasury Secretary Paulson admitted he doesn't know the exact amount that is needed (he just picked the $700 billion number out of his head!). The head of the congressional budget office said he can't figure it out nor can he explain it to anyone.

And yet, they are screeching about how the end is near! Panic! Recession! The Great Depression! Y2K! Bird flu! Killer bees! We must pass the bailout bill today!! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Falling for whom? NOTHING in this "bailout" package will lower the price of the gas you have to put in your car to get to work. NOTHING in this bill will protect you from losing your home. NOTHING in this bill will give you health insurance.

Health insurance? Mike, why are you bringing this up? What's this got to do with the Wall Street collapse?

It has everything to do with it. This so-called "collapse" was triggered by the massive defaulting and foreclosures going on with people's home mortgages. Do you know why so many Americans are losing their homes? To hear the Republicans describe it, it's because too many working class idiots were given mortgages that they really couldn't afford. Here's the truth: The number one cause of people declaring bankruptcy is because of medical bills. Let me state this simply: If we had had universal health coverage, this mortgage "crisis" may never have happened.

This bailout's mission is to protect the obscene amount of wealth that has been accumulated in the last eight years. It's to protect the top shareholders who own and control corporate America. It's to make sure their yachts and mansions and "way of life" go uninterrupted while the rest of America suffers and struggles to pay the bills. Let the rich suffer for once. Let them pay for the bailout. We are spending 400 million dollars a day on the war in Iraq. Let them end the war immediately and save us all another half-trillion dollars!

I have to stop writing this and you have to stop reading it. They are staging a financial coup this morning in our country. They are hoping Congress will act fast before they stop to think, before we have a chance to stop them ourselves. So stop reading this and do something -- NOW! Here's what you can do immediately:

1. Call or e-mail Senator Obama. Tell him he does not need to be sitting there trying to help prop up Bush and Cheney and the mess they've made. Tell him we know he has the smarts to slow this thing down and figure out what's the best route to take. Tell him the rich have to pay for whatever help is offered. Use the leverage we have now to insist on a moratorium on home foreclosures, to insist on a move to universal health coverage, and tell him that we the people need to be in charge of the economic decisions that affect our lives, not the barons of Wall Street.

2. Take to the streets. Participate in one of the hundreds of quickly-called demonstrations that are taking place all over the country (especially those near Wall Street and DC).

3. Call your Representative in Congress and your Senators. (click here to find their phone numbers). Tell them what you told Senator Obama.

When you screw up in life, there is hell to pay. Each and every one of you reading this knows that basic lesson and has paid the consequences of your actions at some point. In this great democracy, we cannot let there be one set of rules for the vast majority of hard-working citizens, and another set of rules for the elite, who, when they screw up, are handed one more gift on a silver platter. No more! Not again!

Yours,
Michael Moore
MMFlint@aol.com
MichaelMoore.com

P.S. Having read further the details of this bailout bill, you need to know you are being lied to. They talk about how they will prevent golden parachutes. It says NOTHING about what these executives and fat cats will make in SALARY. According to Rep. Brad Sherman of California, these top managers will continue to receive million-dollar-a-month paychecks under this new bill. There is no direct ownership given to the American people for the money being handed over. Foreign banks and investors will be allowed to receive billion-dollar handouts. A large chunk of this $700 billion is going to be given directly to Chinese and Middle Eastern banks. There is NO guarantee of ever seeing that money again.

P.P.S. From talking to people I know in DC, they say the reason so many Dems are behind this is because Wall Street this weekend put a gun to their heads and said either turn over the $700 billion or the first thing we'll start blowing up are the pension funds and 401(k)s of your middle class constituents. The Dems are scared they may make good on their threat. But this is not the time to back down or act like the typical Democrat we have witnessed for the last eight years. The Dems handed a stolen election over to Bush. The Dems gave Bush the votes he needed to invade a sovereign country. Once they took over Congress in 2007, they refused to pull the plug on the war. And now they have been cowered into being accomplices in the crime of the century. You have to call them now and say "NO!" If we let them do this, just imagine how hard it will be to get anything good done when President Obama is in the White House. THESE DEMOCRATS ARE ONLY AS STRONG AS THE BACKBONE WE GIVE THEM. CALL CONGRESS NOW.

[camoor]

I think what Michael Moore is saying is more or less true.

Unfortunately Wall Street is going to get what they want or they will make us all pay. It's like being mugged at gunpoint - better to give the guy your money and escape with your life.

And believe me, Wall Street elite will make out like bandits on this deal. This is going to be the "Big Dig" of financial bailouts. Hell it might not be a bad move to goto NYC and setup your own financial institution rescue consulting service.

[JolietJake]

I don't know about lack of universal health care causing all of this, he seems to be reaching just a little.

[RAMSTORIA]

looks like the bailout just got shot down in the house... wonder how the market will react.

[Msut77]

I don't know about lack of universal health care causing all of this, he seems to be reaching just a little.

The abysmal healthcare system in this country certainly did not help.

IMHO part of the reason for the rush to sign over the 700 Billion NOW NOW NOW!!! was to basically fend off any sort of healthcare reforms.

[MSI Magus]

looks like the bailout just got shot down in the house... wonder how the market will react.

Already plunging. This whole thing is just so fucked up and comical.

[thrustbucket]

This will go down as a historical event.

I'm not sure I can recall another piece of legislation of this magnitude that was so unpopular to the American people.

[fatherofcaitlyn]

This will go down as a historical event.

I'm not sure I can recall another piece of legislation of this magnitude that was so unpopular to the American people.

If anybody had read them, the Patriot Act or the teleco amnesty bill.

[DarkSageRK]

Here's the truth: The number one cause of people declaring bankruptcy is because of medical bills. Let me state this simply: If we had had universal health coverage, this mortgage "crisis" may never have happened.

Medical bills? You're fucking kidding me. No, the monthly payments on homes that are killing people hardly have anything to do with medical bills. Perhaps Moore should talk to some real people instead of the ones in his head.

[MSI Magus]

Medical bills? You're fucking kidding me. No, the monthly payments on homes that are killing people hardly have anything to do with medical bills. Perhaps Moore should talk to some real people instead of the ones in his head.

Or maybe the American people should stop buying houses they cant fucking afford. Iv seen people like lilboo ask how and what this whole thing is about and the simplest answer is that while there are many reasons one central thing is at the heart of this. Every fucking American from bankers to wall street investors to congress to the 300 million Americans have forgotten how to fucking save money and have spent like Cindy Fucking McCain in a Gucci store.

[thrustbucket]

That's because our entire economy is set up with no backing other than debt. Debt is the engine that drives the modern economy and that's not good, and will cycle through failure every so often because of it.

[MSI Magus]

That's because our entire economy is set up with no backing other than debt. Debt is the engine that drives the modern economy and that's not good, and will cycle through failure every so often because of it.

This isnt failure though its a meltdown

[RAMSTORIA]

Medical bills? You're fucking kidding me. No, the monthly payments on homes that are killing people hardly have anything to do with medical bills. Perhaps Moore should talk to some real people instead of the ones in his head.

...but medical bills are the number one reason for bankrupcy...

the thing about the mortgage crisis is people are just as responsible for it as banks are.

[thrustbucket]

This isnt failure though its a meltdown

Same thing, sorta. But my point is, it's programmed into the system to happen. Any system relying on limitless debt is.

[Friend of Sonic]

I don't know about lack of universal health care causing all of this, he seems to be reaching just a little.
Yeah, I agree. Maybe if he keeps standing on his tippy-toes, he can reach the stars.

[dmaul1114]

...but medical bills are the number one reason for bankrupcy...

the thing about the mortgage crisis is people are just as responsible for it as banks are.

It's kind of confounded though. Unexpected, and uncovered, medical expenses are just the straw that breaks the camel's back in many cases. People are already overextended in debt with student loans, a bigger mortgage than they can afford, car payments etc. and thus they can't handle unexpected costs as they don't have enough savings.

Of course, some times medical bills are gigantic and would bankrupt even people with very little debt. Medical bills are a huge problem in this country, but it's a stretch to say they're behind the current crisis.

That's on people for taking mortgages they can't afford and on the banks for giving people loan's that are beyond their means.

[RAMSTORIA]

It's kind of confounded though. Unexpected, and uncovered, medical expenses are just the straw that breaks the camel's back in many cases. People are already overextended in debt with student loans, a bigger mortgage than they can afford, car payments etc. and thus they can't handle unexpected costs as they don't have enough savings.



true enough.

[camoor]

It's kind of confounded though. Unexpected, and uncovered, medical expenses are just the straw that breaks the camel's back in many cases. People are already overextended in debt with student loans, a bigger mortgage than they can afford, car payments etc. and thus they can't handle unexpected costs as they don't have enough savings.

Of course, some times medical bills are gigantic and would bankrupt even people with very little debt. Medical bills are a huge problem in this country, but it's a stretch to say they're behind the current crisis.

That's on people for taking mortgages they can't afford and on the banks for giving people loan's that are beyond their means.

I also agree. MM overstates the their importance, but our healthcare "system" is a drain and a national embarrassment.

[Msut77]

...but medical bills are the number one reason for bankrupcy...

the thing about the mortgage crisis is people are just as responsible for it as banks are.

No.

[RAMSTORIA]

No.


excellent retort.

[Msut77]

excellent retort.

It was all that was needed.

[RAMSTORIA]

It was all that was needed.

not really. i mean, besides being wrong you provide nothing to back up your one word answer. plus you dont seem to know what sarcasm is.

[dmaul1114]

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/bankruptcy_study.html



Medical Bills Leading Cause of Bankruptcy, Harvard Study Finds

February 3, 2005

Illness and medical bills caused half of the 1,458,000 personal bankruptcies in 2001, according to a study published by the journal Health Affairs.

.......



Not sure if it holds true still today, but a simple "no" if that's what that pointless one word reply was to, is pretty misplaced on this issue...

[bmulligan]

Ahem, redirecting back to Mike Moore, I can't believe I actually agree with something that came out of fatboy's mouth. I thought it impossible for him to speak words that are truthy. Although he's not quite right about pinning this on the last eight years, this has been going on since 1995 when congress allowed these sub-prime bundles to be securitized, and guaranteed.

[mykevermin]

Not sure if it holds true still today

More or less my immediate reaction as well.

Funny thing about that study was the bankruptcy "abuse and protection act" that Bush signed into law in April of 2005. The one that increased a person's liability for their outstanding debts if they filed bankruptcy.

You remember the bill; it was passed within weeks of another bill that eliminated United Airlines' liability to pay out employee pension benefits, setting a precedent for any future company to avoid compensating its employees for work they did over the years.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I mean, you have to laugh at bills like that - and the fact that the Republicans have done what they've done and *still* stand a chance at winning the election this year.

It's so far beyond pathetic that it simply can't be anything but funny.

[thrustbucket]

I mean, you have to laugh at bills like that - and the fact that the Republicans have done what they've done and *still* stand a chance at winning the election this year.

It's so far beyond pathetic that it simply can't be anything but funny.

Republicans will always stand a chance at winning the election as long as Democrats continue to represent and fight for many of the platforms they do.

No matter how bad Republicans screw up, the ideology of the Democrats is still too scary for many Americans.

[RAMSTORIA]

It's so far beyond pathetic that it simply can't be anything but funny.

I'm starting to think if the mccain wins the white house and the replublicans steal seats from the democrats in congress that you might actually snap. youll only be able to post 1 hour a day during your rec time at the looney bin ;)

[Msut77]

not really. i mean, besides being wrong you provide nothing to back up your one word answer. plus you dont seem to know what sarcasm is.

Do things really have to explained to you at a thrustbucket level?

[RAMSTORIA]

Do things really have to explained to you at a thrustbucket level?

you said one word!

[mykevermin]

I'm starting to think if the mccain wins the white house and the replublicans steal seats from the democrats in congress that you might actually snap. youll only be able to post 1 hour a day during your rec time at the looney bin ;)

Ha!

I actually promised my wife that I'd give up politics altogether if McCain wins.

Now, that's like a junkie saying he's gonna kick starting tomorrow, I know.

But, seriously, if McCain wins, I'm going to try really damned hard to give up politics.

If only because there's no longer any sense in trying to engage intellectually in a realm dominated by the Machiavellian mechanisms of brand and image manipulation over issues.

But I stress *try* because it would be foolishly incorrect of me to *promise.*

So, you know - get out the vote for McCain. Shut me up.

;)

[Msut77]

you said one word!

Again that is all that has to be said.

You are blind moron if you ignore how the combination of deregulation, lax enforcement of oversight laws and the fucking straight up scams run by those bundling mortgages lead to this clusterfuck. Instead you blame normal albeit naive people who were the target and used as shills by these companies.

[RAMSTORIA]

Again that is all that has to be said.

You are blind moron if you ignore how the combination of deregulation, lax enforcement of oversight laws and the fucking straight up scams run by those bundling mortgages lead to this clusterfuck. Instead you blame normal albeit naive people who were the target and used as shills by these companies.

so because people are naive it excuses their responsibility for the mortgage crisis?

[thrustbucket]

So, you know - get out the vote for McCain. Shut me up.

;)

I'm afraid I can't do that. Plus, you are too much fun to shut you up.

so because people are naive it excuses their responsibility for the mortgage crisis?


Don't you get it yet? You have to admit that any problem at hand is caused 100% by Republicans and/or Bush, in order to appease the intellectual complexity that is Msut77.

[level1online]

Ha!

I actually promised my wife that I'd give up politics altogether if McCain wins.

Now, that's like a junkie saying he's gonna kick starting tomorrow, I know.

But, seriously, if McCain wins, I'm going to try really damned hard to give up politics.

If only because there's no longer any sense in trying to engage intellectually in a realm dominated by the Machiavellian mechanisms of brand and image manipulation over issues.

But I stress *try* because it would be foolishly incorrect of me to *promise.*

So, you know - get out the vote for McCain. Shut me up.

;)

You see, I'm hoping this will play out the other way around if McCain wins.

I'm hoping that as a result of a McCain victory, the Liberals will turn up the heat on the Conservatives instead of retreating back into their turtle shells or leaving the country.

Continued political activism & keeping a vigilante watchful eye on the new administration will guarantee a deadlock for the next four years. Deadlock might actually be the best thing for this country right now, because i don't see things turning around anytime soon, only getting worse.

Under a Democratic administration, the worst thing that can happen is a catastrophe occurring right under our noses because we assumed, "hey! relax! a democrat is charge, party time!"

As long as Democrats promise to remain politically active under an Obama presidency, then yeah, I could actually see myself voting for the guy.



and btw, myke, Chris Benoit is dead, it's time to take down the posters eh? ;)

[mykevermin]

Under a Democratic administration, the worst thing that can happen is a catastrophe occurring right under our noses because we assumed, "hey! relax! a democrat is charge, party time!"

Yeah, because the 90's just sucked economically and otherwise.

I mean, button-fly jeans and "EMF" sucked, sure - but other than that (and Technotronic too) the 90's were fuckin' fan-tas-tic.

[RAMSTORIA]

Yeah, because the 90's just sucked economically and otherwise.

I mean, button-fly jeans and "EMF" sucked, sure - but other than that (and Technotronic too) the 90's were fuckin' fan-tas-tic.


i blame the democrats and their open door policies for ace of base

[thrustbucket]

Yeah, because the 90's just sucked economically and otherwise.

I mean, button-fly jeans and "EMF" sucked, sure - but other than that (and Technotronic too) the 90's were fuckin' fan-tas-tic.

Not that I'm a member of the Heritage foundation, but the 80's were at least as fan-tas-tic, for most.

[Msut77]

so because people are naive it excuses their responsibility for the mortgage crisis?

In a large part yes, their only sin was to follow the conventional wisdom.

Meanwhile those you are attempting an apologia for... At the highest level they let this crisis happen by getting rid of oversight and allowing the pile of shit to build up to this level and at the everyday level were merely violating every bit of common sense as well as rules you know governing how much can be leveraged and leaning on others to rank your crap AAA while kicking the shitpile down the road.

[joeboosauce]

so because people are naive it excuses their responsibility for the mortgage crisis?

The average person does deserve a certain level of culpability. But, the people who KNEW what they were doing was not sustainable and wrong bear a far greater burden of the blame. I am speaking of the speculators and their cronies i.e. Greenspan and all these insane free market cheerleaders. Even Greenspan admitted to reporters that currency specualtors caused the Asian Economic Crisis of the 90s. And he STILL did not see a need to regulate that market! Free market ideology is falling apart just like any ideology should. Most people do not even comprehend the dogmas they vomit.

Want some facts that will enlighten? Start with Chomsky's Free Market Fantasies: Capitalism in the Real World.
http://www.chomsky.info/talks/19960413.htm

[KingBroly]

It's a 400 page bill now, and there's a part in there saying insurance companies have to provide for the mentally unstable. This bill is 1000 times worse than the previous bill, and this is the one that will pass.

They're throwing every little pet peeve some individuals want into this thing now. And guess what? It's going to pass, and we're all screwed. Just wait until January. Then we're REALLY screwed.

[Msut77]

It's a 400 page bill now, and there's a part in there saying insurance companies have to provide for the mentally unstable. This bill is 1000 times worse than the previous bill, and this is the one that will pass.

They're throwing every little pet peeve some individuals want into this thing now. And guess what? It's going to pass, and we're all screwed. Just wait until January. Then we're REALLY screwed.

Out of all the shit going on right now in this country and overseas what pisses you off is that crazy people may get access to healthcare?

[depascal22]

I don't mind if crazy people get healthcare. It's all good to me. I just don't want these fat cats getting a bailout. If my buisness fails, no one hands me a golden parachute.