Who won the 1st Presidential debate? Vote!

[keithp]

Did you watch the debate? If so, who do you think won? Please vote.

[homeland]

no poll?

[keithp]

no poll?

Needed some Viagra. ;)

[ananag112]

I don't think there is a clear winner.

This debate is a lot more watchable then the 2004 Presidential debates though.

[Ruined]

McCain: 1, Obama: 0

Actually, considering what many thought of how McCain would perform prior to this debate, its probably more like McCain 10, Obama 1...


McCain definitely held his own against a smooth talker :)

[Brak]

Tie.

[keithp]

McCain: 1, Obama: 0

Actually, considering what many thought of how McCain would perform prior to this debate, its probably more like McCain 10, Obama 1...


McCain definitely held his own against a smooth talker :)

You mean because McCain wasn't a hothead? Maybe if he had more emotion though it would've helped him keep his thoughts on track.

[thrustbucket]

I can't vote. I was equally unimpressed with both of them for different reasons.

Most of what was said sounded very rehearsed.

It will be fun to apply fact checks to all the claims they each made though.

[JolietJake]

There was no winner, was a total let down to me. I was really hoping there would be some big moment where one of them just hammered the other, but no.

They should have the WWE put these things together.

[Dr Mario Kart]

Pretty dull. Draw or Obama +5%.

McCain wins for the people who wont double check his record as he as asked and wont see through all his lies.

[Tybee]

I give it to Obama by a nose simply because I feel like he brought more points home articulately on a night when the subject matter was supposed to favor McCain. That said, McCain represented himself well. It was a good debate, though lacking in big moments.

I felt like the most powerful attack of the night was when Obama addressed McCain directly and listed all the things McCain was wrong about back when we were first invading Iraq:

"John wants to pretend that the war started in 2007," says Obama. "The war started in 2003. At the time when the war started you said it would be quick and easy, you knew where the weapons of mass destruction were, you were wrong. You said we would be greeted as liberators, you were wrong."

[cochesecochese]

There's no tie option so I'll give to to Obama by a hair. And I do mean a hair.

You could see McJane getting salty up there by the second half. That exit at the end of the night showed NO CLASS and his old lady looked like she was already three gin and tonics into her night. Not a good look, John.

I think with a competent moderator and a little more practice, Obama is going to eviscerate McVein.

[Dr Mario Kart]

Both candidates need a guy that stands next to them and yells OH SNAP

[Xevious]

I'd say McCain won by a hair but this debate about Foreign Policy which was his strong point really...He had more cards stacked on his deck.

I will also like to state that I'm voting for Obama (in case some of you Obama supporters want to bash me).

The Palin/Biden debate is the one which really intrigues me though; That has the makings of some serious fireworks...

[DJSteel]

McCain did a lot of skirting around the questions.. I didn't particularily like his answers.. especially how he repeated himself and broke out into a full McCain Maverick ad..

[Ecofreak]

Even though I believe that McCain may have won on points, he didn't get the big win that he needed to change the direction of this election -- which seems to be drifting towards Obama.

Because Obama managed to hold his own in McCain's best topic, I throw my score behind Obama. McCain definitely did seem condescending at times, and that irked me.

Something worth noting..
Fox’s Carl Cameron observed that Obama said that "I agree with John" at least eight times. Conversely, McCain said that Obama didn’t "understand" at least seven times.

[Soodmeg]

CNN reports viewers feel Obama bested McCain 58% to 31%

[gareman]

I agree Obama didn't do that great (and shame on the moderator for letting both of them digress so much), but what points are people talking about that McCain won on? I am not being a jerk I am just wondering? I saw some points where he did a decent job of almost answering the question directly, but not one where I was like daaaaammmnnn...he owned Obama on that.

The one direct and what I thought to be a decent point was business taxes being high will encourage owners to go overseas (as I am very weak on business knowledge),but Obama responded very well and pretty much made it a moot point, bringing up corporate loopholes (that McCain supports no less) created an over all cheaper cost to American located companies.

[Tybee]

Everyone acting like Obama agreeing with McCain so many times indicates some sort of coup for McCain fails to see the bigger picture. Obama's been so successful in his campaign thus far because he's made a convincing argument that he has in the past and will in the future find the points of agreement in this country and will build on those. That's how shit gets done and that's how we'll both strengthen this country within and rebuild our reputation abroad.

I have a lot more respect for someone who strives to find the points of consensus and clarifies their own points when they don't than someone who simply stands there and says "You're wrong" or "You don't understand" without making any effort to bridge the gap. I think most Americans do.

[Ecofreak]

Here are some new snap polls directly after the debate:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a81/kos102/2008/Campaign/Blowout-1.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a81/kos102/2008/Campaign/Blowout-3.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a81/kos102/2008/Campaign/Blowout-2.jpg

And just for fun
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a81/kos102/2008/Campaign/JFK-Bama.jpg

[HowStern]

McCain did a lot of skirting around the questions.. I didn't particularily like his answers.. especially how he repeated himself and broke out into a full McCain Maverick ad..

Yeah I feel like this too.
McCain was rehashing the same thing over and over. Obama was being ridiculously polite which is why I don't think many people will see him as "winning". But his answers were at least relevant to the questions without going back to the same thing over and over.

[lilboo]

Obama, IMO, is a great talker.
I am swooned 8-)

[Ikohn4ever]

moderator did a horrible job, didnt think Obama went after McCain after he was attacked by him. I also really like how McCain used Maverick twice in the same sentence.

[freakyzeeky]

I felt like McCain was basically reiterating a lot of what he says in his stump speeches in trying to answer the moderator's questions.
Obama, IMHO in answering his questions came across sounding more natural, even as he struggled a bit in explaining his position in whatever issue he was talking about.

Plus McCain couldn't look Obama eye to eye. And in refering to Obama when answering questions, he came across as condescending... Big No-no's in a Presidental Debate in my book.

I say Obama wins the night

[Frogurt.man]

McCain was not voted Miss Congeniality.

[Chase]

Even though I believe that McCain may have won on points, he didn't get the big win that he needed to change the direction of this election -- which seems to be drifting towards Obama.

Because Obama managed to hold his own in McCain's best topic, I throw my score behind Obama. McCain definitely did seem condescending at times, and that irked me.


I thought McCain came off as condescending and smug. Obama, way too courteous. Obama is a very poised fellow. McCain has that old man hiss to his voice, like he's running off steam (which is fitting).

[gareman]

McCain was not voted Miss Congeniality.

that was another lie.......I heard he was 1986-1990

[SpazX]

I think they were pretty much even, which I count as a win for Obama, since this should have been McCain's strongest debate. :-P

I think the main problems with McCain was that he too often seemed condescending and then there was that little rant he had near the end that just came off as too unprofessional I think.

Anyway, overall it was pretty boring. There weren't any good "Don't forget Poland" stupid moments or particularly hard-hitting moments. If only one of them was as horrible a speaker as Bush. Hopefully the VP debate will have some laughs since Biden can say some stupid shit and Palin pretty much always does.

[lawdood]

McCain was not voted Miss Congeniality.

He may not have been, but his running mate certainly was when she was entering all those beauty pageants...right around the same time Obama was graduating from Harvard Law School magna cum laude. ;)

While it wasn't a knockout, I vote Obama in this debate.

[Chase]

I am unaware as to how much I have said and typed this, but I am really looking forward to the vice presidential debates.

I predict Palin stutters at least five times and offers us around three awkward silences.

[SpazX]

I predict Palin stutters at least five times and offers us around three awkward silences.

I expect at least one "I'll get back to you on that" type of answer...

But really I think they structured it so that it'll be pretty easy for her, provided she has memorized the party line well enough and she's never asked for any clarification.

[Chase]

I expect at least one "I'll get back to you on that" type of answer...

But really I think they structured it so that it'll be pretty easy for her, provided she has memorized the party line well enough and she's never asked for any clarification.


Hehehe... or at least one time where she changes the lead topic into a completely different topic and the moderator has to refocus her.

Palin debating foreign policy with Biden is probably going to make me cringe.

[Xevious]

Palin debating foreign policy with Biden is probably going to make me cringe.

I posted this before in another thread but I thought it might be cool to post it again

The Disney Movie, Sarah Palin!!!
http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1831461

[crunchb3rry]

You could see the opinion line drop like a stone everytime McCain used a dead soldier's mother sob story or reminded us he was a "warrior" (ie: pussy-ass bomb dropper). The Republicans ate that shit up but Dems and Independents saw right through that shit and cranked down their dials.

I'm also wondering if CNN was trying to rig that whole gimmick. They picked a shade of red that barely showed up on the graph while the other two lines were nice and bright. I swore the Republican line was dead even the entire time until I got a little closer to the TV and squinted. Maybe HD would have helped but they could have done that better by picking a brighter shade of red or having a lighter background on the graph.

[hobocorpses]

You could see the opinion line drop like a stone everytime McCain used a dead soldier's mother sob story or reminded us he was a "warrior" (ie: pussy-ass bomb dropper). The Republicans ate that shit up but Dems and Independents saw right through that shit and cranked down their dials.

I'm also wondering if CNN was trying to rig that whole gimmick. They picked a shade of red that barely showed up on the graph while the other two lines were nice and bright. I swore the Republican line was dead even the entire time until I got a little closer to the TV and squinted. Maybe HD would have helped but they could have done that better by picking a brighter shade of red or having a lighter background on the graph.

thats why smart voters dont watch that crap....PBS FTW....biased media is crap

[Thomas96]

THe most important line on the screen was the bright green of the independents, and by the end of the debate their line was on par with the democrat (blue) line.

Evertime, I take time to listen to McCain I never get a clear picture of his "Plans" What he wants to do in reality. The only message I can get from him is that his criticisms of Obama. When McCain was talking about the vetrans, he says "I'll take care of them, they know I'll take care of them." Instead of trying to say, Just trust me, I want to hear HOW he's going to help them. At least say how even if its just mentioning one single aspect. Same thing on the economy...Obama's laying out a specific plan, and there's no specific plan coming from McCain. Point is, McCain IMHO doesn't want to layout his plans, because if he did, he know people probably wouldn't vote for it (or him rather).

[DJSteel]

the fact of the matter is that McCain cared more about the pork barrel spending than the financial loop holes that are/were created for Companies.. he certainly made a big stink about something that would act more like a band aid instead fixing fundamental problems

[thrustbucket]

However, when asked about what major cuts would be made in light of this financial crisis, Obama couldn't come up with anything specific, even when asked three times. McCain wasn't that specific either, but he mentioned massive spending cuts multiple times as a priority, and even a spending freeze (Which would never happen, unfortunately). Obama, on the other hand, kept bringing up programs/reasons he'd need to spend more.

[DJSteel]

However, when asked about what major cuts would be made in light of this financial crisis, Obama couldn't come up with anything specific, even when asked three times. McCain wasn't that specific either, but he mentioned massive spending cuts multiple times as a priority, and even a spending freeze (Which would never happen, unfortunately). Obama, on the other hand, kept bringing up programs/reasons he'd need to spend more.


spending cuts or freezes doesn't fix anything.. it just stops progression for many programs that can't afford the stoppage.. it doesn't fix what needs to be fixed... that is why it's not the right answer.

[thrustbucket]

spending cuts or freezes doesn't fix anything.. it just stops progression for many programs that can't afford the stoppage.. it doesn't fix what needs to be fixed... that is why it's not the right answer.

Maybe not. Doesn't change the fact that Obama couldn't even acknowledge that after these bailout plans, the government can't afford budgets the next couple years that it's use to, through specifically citing programs/areas that would need cut. And that's scary.

[DJSteel]

Maybe not. Doesn't change the fact that Obama couldn't even acknowledge that after these bailout plans, the government can't afford budgets the next couple years that it's use to, through specifically citing programs/areas that would need cut. And that's scary.

McCain didn't even answer the first question about the bailout.. he basically just said that we will come together to figure out a plan..

look neither one of them considered that they'd inherit an economy on the verge of a depression, but McCain didn't even tell us how he planned on fixing the economy.. he just told us that pork barrel spending was out of control

[MSI Magus]

Maybe not. Doesn't change the fact that Obama couldn't even acknowledge that after these bailout plans, the government can't afford budgets the next couple years that it's use to, through specifically citing programs/areas that would need cut. And that's scary.

Raises taxes on the rich, return a few other taxes to the Clinton levels and end the war on Iraq. Thats alot of freaking money right there.

[gareman]

Maybe not. Doesn't change the fact that Obama couldn't even acknowledge that after these bailout plans, the government can't afford budgets the next couple years that it's use to, through specifically citing programs/areas that would need cut. And that's scary.

Also closing corporate tax loopholes, tax breaks for the middle class (equals more spending), Eliminating ineffective government programs......He answered the question several times. Jim was pissing me off during the part. Obama did answer the question not neatly and concise but he answered the question.

[keithp]

Yeah, I thought McCain skirted around most questions in true political fashion, but Obama at least made efforts to address the actual thing being asked! That impressed me.

[mykevermin]

McCain totally ruled the event.

[Foo228]

McCain either said "I supported" or "Sen. Obama opposed" and always had a sympathetic story to tell. I don't like that (I did like when he pulled out his bracelet and then Obama followed suit...haha, best part imo)

Obama, on the other hand, seemed very focused and on the ball. He addressed points made by McCain that made sense and backed up his views. Whenever Mc had his moment and was condescending to Obama, you could tell he isn't the right guy for the job. He's just a face with a sad story.

Obama wins, easy. By the way, I agree healthcare should not be gov't so even though I agreed w/ Mc there, he's points didn't validate his argument.

McCain was not voted Miss Congeniality.

:rofl:

I posted this before in another thread but I thought it might be cool to post it again

The Disney Movie, Sarah Palin!!!
http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1831461

:rofl::rofl:

[JJSP]

McCain was not voted Miss Congeniality.
That'll happen when your classmates include the Virgin Mary.

[rumblebear]

The debate sucked as expected. Both were terrible. McCain just kept on regurgitating talking points instead of actually answering the questions, and had awkward facial expressions like he just underwent botox injection. Obama acted like the stereotypical sleazy double talking politician who's full of himself and his "I have superior judgment because I made a speech against the Iraq War in order to get reelected in a radically left, Bush hating district". If I had to decide who won the debate, I would go with McCain because he came off least bad. Obama came off as the unlikable asswipe snake oil salesmen, with his shameless ploy "I have a bracelet too" and then had to look down at it because he forgot the inscribed soldier's name.



It's a shame we didn't get a Hillary vs Huckabee match up. These two are far superior debaters.

[Tybee]

It's a shame we didn't get a Hillary vs Huckabee match up. These two are far superior debaters.

Plus, they could compare squirrel recipes.

[Koggit]

Obama doesn't have a strong enough presence to really own a debate, but as far as what was said he ruled. Anyone, anywhere reading a transcript of the debate will say Obama > McCain.

[HotShotX]

I'm about halfway through the debate, and I don't think I've even seen McCain even look Obama square in the eyes even once, yet Obama is directing much of his talk directly at McCain (granted, only after the moderator told him to do so early on).

These are serious issues, and I don't like the fact that McCain is smiling and giving that "Politician's Grin" whenever he isn't talking. Obama, on the other hand, is taking this very seriously and it definitely shows whenever the camera is on him (I don't know if he's scratching his balls when it's off him).

Watching the second half now, I'll post again with my final thoughts later.

~HotShotX

[gareman]

The debate sucked as expected. Both were terrible. McCain just kept on regurgitating talking points instead of actually answering the questions, and had awkward facial expressions like he just underwent botox injection. Obama acted like the stereotypical sleazy double talking politician who's full of himself and his "I have superior judgment because I made a speech against the Iraq War in order to get reelected in a radically left, Bush hating district". If I had to decide who won the debate, I would go with McCain because he came off least bad. Obama came off as the unlikable asswipe snake oil salesmen, with his shameless ploy "I have a bracelet too" and then had to look down at it because he forgot the inscribed soldier's name.



It's a shame we didn't get a Hillary vs Huckabee match up. These two are far superior debaters.


What is sleazy about Obama or what he said?

What exactly did he "typically" double talk about?

He spoke out against that war when it was really unpopular on both sides....politically and and in the eyes of the general public and it was not when he was running nor was he being reelected. I live in ILL, and let me tell its far from being a Bush Hating state (maybe the Chicago area and not so much in 2003). Also how do you know his motives on the comments about the war he made in 2003 when you can't even get facts correct about generally political climate right?

What made the "bracelet" comment "snake oil" and "salesmen" like, he was simply responding to McCain's attempt to monopolize "The right owns patriotism and supporting our troops" (which come on McCain hasn't work for over 3 years). Yes he stumbled on the name because it was a longer name, he probably did plan on mentioning it, and didn't want to get his name incorrect. I have been giving speeches in class and stumbled on my own family member's name due to just having to think about too much and second guessing my memory of a name.

Please answers these questions. They have nothing to do with "facts" its just about explaining your own opinions and beliefs that should be easy, since it was so easy for you to assert all these negative ideas.

[Koggit]

Trying to have a conversation with Rumblebear is a bad idea, that kid's a wiener.

[gareman]

Trying to have a conversation with Rumblebear is a bad idea, that kid's a wiener.

What exactly makes him a "wiener"? haha...maybe because I used to be all, "F the government and all politicians are liars", that these comments annoy the hell out of me.

Maybe its because I feel Obama is one of the first candidates to be this far from those stereotypes in long time. Say what you will about his beliefs or his ability to carry out his promises, but one must admit that he is very honest, straight forward, and logical. I have yet to see him "double talk" or "lie" or avoid a question.

I sick and tired of these Obama is like everyone else just because he is politician.

Also this kid thinks Huckabee v Clinton would be a good race/debate?????
I would be watching the debates from my new home in Canada if that were the case.

[MSI Magus]

What exactly makes him a "wiener"? haha...maybe because I used to be all, "F the government and all politicians are liars", that these comments annoy the hell out of me.

Maybe its because I feel Obama is one of the first candidates to be this far from those stereotypes in long time. Say what you will about his beliefs or his ability to carry out his promises, but one must admit that he is very honest, straight forward, and logical. I have yet to see him "double talk" or "lie" or avoid a question.

I sick and tired of these Obama is like everyone else just because he is politician.

Also this kid thinks Huckabee v Clinton would be a good race/debate?????
I would be watching the debates from my new home in Canada if that were the case.

He has double talked on a few subjects like NAFTA and FAFSA and spread lies about McCain recently. Given these arnt nearly as bad as the lies or double talk from McCain or other politicians, but Obama has been far from the perfect candidate of change either.

[gareman]

He has double talked on a few subjects like NAFTA and FAFSA and spread lies about McCain recently. Given these arnt nearly as bad as the lies or double talk from McCain or other politicians, but Obama has been far from the perfect candidate of change either.

Well.....I did watch the "Obama lies" ad which I will give Obama to critics (although I would argue that I have not heard him lie, personally...not that that's better), and as fair as double talking...I view double talking as not changing your mind or even saying a different position. Double talking to me is when you switch positions without giving a reason and/or denying your original position...there's nothing wrong with changing your mind or even acting differently than one has talked at the last minute. As long as one has a reason for why they acted that way and how the came to a different conclusion.

[mykevermin]

I think you mean FISA and not FAFSA.

[MSI Magus]

I think you mean FISA and not FAFSA.

Sigh, yes yes I do....I slip up like that far too often.

[gareman]

I think you mean FISA and not FAFSA.

Thats what I was thinking....although I wasn't sure what Obama views have/are towards student aid.

With the FIFSA bill Obama addressed signing it and why he did in a 3 page article that was posted online to a group condemning Obama for it. Which is pretty amazing considering it was a relatively small internet group, that a front runner for the white house would take the time to give a lengthy personal and honest response to such a unpublicized issue.

Basically Obama explained that he needed to look tough on national security and although the bill was not perfect it was a lot better than it was originally introduced. So even when he is politicking he still is honest about it.

[JolietJake]

That does bring up another issue though, i haven't much from either candidate about the cost of education and financial aid for students.

[DJSteel]

Obama did in fact say he wants to make education more affordable...

[cochesecochese]

Big O did mention last night that he wants to increase spending for early childhood education.

From his website:
Higher Education



Create the American Opportunity Tax Credit: Obama and Biden will make college affordable for all Americans by creating a new American Opportunity Tax Credit. This universal and fully refundable credit will ensure that the first $4,000 of a college education is completely free for most Americans, and will cover two-thirds the cost of tuition at the average public college or university and make community college tuition completely free for most students. Recipients of the credit will be required to conduct 100 hours of community service.
Simplify the Application Process for Financial Aid: Obama and Biden will streamline the financial aid process by eliminating the current federal financial aid application and enabling families to apply simply by checking a box on their tax form, authorizing their tax information to be used, and eliminating the need for a separate application.

[mykevermin]

With the FIFSA bill

Oh, for fuck's sake...

:lol:

[yukine]

I'd say Obama, in my opinion John was not able to stay on topic and focus.

Also, to me it seemed like John wasn't bringing anything new to the debate, it was like he was a parrot mimicking everything Obama said.

[JolietJake]

I don't know about the 100 hours of community service, to me that's something that should be done because you want to, not because you're required. Also, if they're talking tax credit, that means the money will still have to be paid up front, but you'd be able to deduct it from your taxes, correct?

[cochesecochese]

Really? You're effectively working at a rate of $40/hr. This is a far better deal than any work study program out there.

[JolietJake]

But what about people who are taking 15-18 hours of classes, plus working on top of that, doesn't leave much time for community service.

[dmaul1114]

I don't know about the 100 hours of community service, to me that's something that should be done because you want to, not because you're required. Also, if they're talking tax credit, that means the money will still have to be paid up front, but you'd be able to deduct it from your taxes, correct?

I like it personally. Its a way to get young people involved in the community, and it's not that many hours for the amount of money they get for school.

[cochesecochese]

But what about people who are taking 15-18 hours of classes, plus working on top of that, doesn't leave much time for community service.

Clearly, I can't answer that question fully. It's my guess that you'll be allowed to perform the hours within a certain time limit or perhaps during the summer months.

[gareman]

I don't know about the 100 hours of community service, to me that's something that should be done because you want to, not because you're required. Also, if they're talking tax credit, that means the money will still have to be paid up front, but you'd be able to deduct it from your taxes, correct?

Its better than the military that targets the poor and uneducated, and you don't have to kill for it.

[HotShotX]

Clearly, I can't answer that question fully. It's my guess that you'll be allowed to perform the hours within a certain time limit or perhaps during the summer months.

100 hours within a year, I believe. It's not that hard to do, even with classes and a part-time job.

For example, I help organize and run the blood drives on my campus, something that takes about 8 hours a day, 2 days in a row, twice a semester. Which equates to 32 hours a semester for the drive itself, not including time spent putting up flyers, etc. That's roughly 65-70 hours in itself.

Anyone in a fraternity/sorority also clocks in volunteer hours on a regular basis, around 35 per semester as required by house rules. Another 30 or so and they qualify for the credit.

~HotShotX

[cochesecochese]

100 in a year? Cakewalk.

[lordwow]

I'd be interested to see how they're going to regulate the 100 hours.

[Tybee]

I'd be interested to see how they're going to regulate the 100 hours.

I did a year with AmeriCorps and a lot of work with Hands On Atlanta. You track this kind of work by maintaining a timesheet that has to be signed by a supervisor, project coordinator, etc. for whatever time you're logging.

I think mandatory community service for students or service in exchange for scholarships is one of the best damn ideas I've ever heard. Americans have this mindset that "serving your country" always means joining the military, but there are a Hell of lot more ways to serve, IMO: working with the homeless, doing environmental remediation, working in national parks, helping in disadvantaged schools -- on and on. And I think more of our young people should be compelled to give back to their communities (and not just to get points taken off their license).

I gave a year of my life to my country through AmeriCorps, managing a team of six people tutoring inner city kids in reading, providing teacher assistance, and running after school programs. I'm extremely proud of that work, and wish more people could have that experience.

[Koggit]

100/yr is nothing especially considering you get $4,000. College students shouldn't mind doing community service at all anyway, since it'll help when applying to professional/grad school.

[yukine]

I think it's a good idea, I wouldn't mind doing it.

[Koggit]

I'm sure there are millions of Americans who wouldn't mind doing it.

Which then begs the question, where are those billions of dollars coming from? If just 10% of the nation opts in, which I think is a reasonable estimate, that's over 100 billion dollars in tax credit. Where's that coming from?

[HotShotX]

"What Senator Obama doesn't seem to understand."

I heard the quote so much I'm going to be hearing it in my sleep. Just finished watching the debate...and I have to say Obama came out far more aggressive and direct, while McCain seemed to rehearse the same talking points he normally uses when arguing his opponents. All issues aside (which by now we've become quite familiar with and have already decided upon which we agree on), I have to say Obama takes this one. You may not agree with his stance on the issues, but I think after that hour, he's going to be fresher in your mind than McCain.

At its conclusion, I don't think McCain looked directly at Obama even once during the entire debate.

~HotShotX

[Tybee]

I'm sure there are millions of Americans who wouldn't mind doing it.

Which then begs the question, where are those billions of dollars coming from? If just 10% of the nation opts in, which I think is a reasonable estimate, that's over 100 billion dollars in tax credit. Where's that coming from?

Ummmmmm...Legalize pot and tax it? :roll:

How about a national lottery? That's how we fund the HOPE scholarship here in Georgia. Bobby Joe's gambling addiction paid way through college. ;)

[KingBroly]

Something's been bothering me. Who did Obama get his pin from again? I remember some stuttering, but I don't think he ever gave an answer.

[fatherofcaitlyn]

Something's been bothering me. Who did Obama get his pin from again? I remember some stuttering, but I don't think he ever gave an answer.

The mother of some sergeant who died in Iraq or some other made up bullshit.

Does it really matter? Would it change your position on Iraq?

...

I think Chris Rock had the best analysis of the debate. It wasn't a knockout for Obama and you can't beat the white man, you have to knock him out.

...

As far as questions ...

If Obama doesn't understand something, how will Palin?

[yukine]

Palin is a maverick, that's how.

[Koggit]

Palin doesn't have to do this back-and-forth, right? She just has to remember the answers McCain's staff practices with her.

Even that, though, I don't think she can do.

[homeland]

the V.P debates will have a 2 min back and forth section..compared to the 5 minutes they had last night.

[DJSteel]

I don't recall Obama talking about a pin.. I think that McCain was the one babbling about some pin.. I could be wrong though...

[HotShotX]

I don't recall Obama talking about a pin.. I think that McCain was the one babbling about some pin.. I could be wrong though...

They both brought a bracelet that was given to them by the parent of a fallen soldier in the war. That was all I can recall.

As for pins however, Obama was the only one who wore one. All that aside, if you're deciding your vote based on who does and does not wear a flag lapel pin, you're a fucking moron and need your voting rights revoked.

~HotShotX

[bigdaddy]

No "no winner"?

This poll sucks.

[keithp]

No "no winner"?

This poll sucks.

No, because there isn't any "no winner" option on the ballot card in November. One of these two is going to win and I wanted a purely unscientific judge of the debate. :booty:

[bigdaddy]

Just because one of these two will win in November (which might not be true, one could die) doesn't mean that either wins the debate, it was a draw.

[DJSteel]

They both brought a bracelet that was given to them by the parent of a fallen soldier in the war. That was all I can recall.

As for pins however, Obama was the only one who wore one. All that aside, if you're deciding your vote based on who does and does not wear a flag lapel pin, you're a fucking moron and need your voting rights revoked.

~HotShotX

i agree..lol.. tell me you didn't start laughing when McCain busted out the maverick ad right there on stage..

[Msut77]

Just because one of these two will win in November (which might not be true, one could die) doesn't mean that either wins the debate, it was a draw.

Pretty much every single poll says differently.

[crunchb3rry]

I don't recall Obama talking about a pin.. I think that McCain was the one babbling about some pin.. I could be wrong though...

McCain used his bracelet from a dead soldier's mother as a pandering tactic. Obama simply said he had one too and left it at that. Probably to indicate McCain isn't "special" or "the chosen one" because he had one given to him. Essentially that the bracelet was akin to the World's Greatest Grandpa coffee mug.

[HotShotX]

McCain used his bracelet from a dead soldier's mother as a pandering tactic. Obama simply said he had one too and left it at that. Probably to indicate McCain isn't "special" or "the chosen one" because he had one given to him. Essentially that the bracelet was akin to the World's Greatest Grandpa coffee mug.

It was also to show that not every mother thinks the war ending means that their child died in vain. It shows that people traveling the exact same path can reach different conclusions, and that there isn't necessarily a "right" or a "wrong" way.

Though admittedly, I felt Obama came off as a bit of a dick when he said "Hey, I've got a bracelet too", it was too brash in regards to a dead soldier.

~HotShotX

[bigdaddy]

Pretty much every single poll says differently.


:rofl:

Yes because the person who wins the first debate will win the whitehouse! If that was the case Obama would be up by 25 points in election polls.

[Kaijufan]

No "no winner"?

This poll sucks.
I agree. There was no clear winner of this debate.

[crunchb3rry]

Abortion and John McCain's age is what's going to decide this election. I think women will ultimately vote for a brother than be forced to give birth to one.

[zegota]

:rofl:

Yes because the person who wins the first debate will win the whitehouse! If that was the case Obama would be up by 25 points in election polls.

That's not what the poster said. The poster said this debate was not a tie among undecided voters, or voters overall, judging by every single scientific poll so far.

[KingBroly]

If Obama is up by 3-4 points going into election day in polls, he's in trouble.

[The Mana Knight]

100/yr is nothing especially considering you get $4,000. College students shouldn't mind doing community service at all anyway, since it'll help when applying to professional/grad school.I agree. I wish I did it myself. Sounds like a good idea.

[HotShotX]

Abortion and John McCain's age is what's going to decide this election. I think women will ultimately vote for a brother than be forced to give birth to one.

Wow. Someone needs to turn this quote into a pamphlet, now.

~HotShotX

[elprincipe]

Wow. Someone needs to turn this quote into a pamphlet, now.

~HotShotX

Why? To put out a "common misperception" pamphlet? More women are against abortion then men. But regardless of that, if you look at recent polling on the issue, it doesn't look like it will be a big factor in the election due to similar amounts of people placing it as an issue that will have a major effect on their votes.

[lordwow]

I did a year with AmeriCorps and a lot of work with Hands On Atlanta. You track this kind of work by maintaining a timesheet that has to be signed by a supervisor, project coordinator, etc. for whatever time you're logging.

I think mandatory community service for students or service in exchange for scholarships is one of the best damn ideas I've ever heard. Americans have this mindset that "serving your country" always means joining the military, but there are a Hell of lot more ways to serve, IMO: working with the homeless, doing environmental remediation, working in national parks, helping in disadvantaged schools -- on and on. And I think more of our young people should be compelled to give back to their communities (and not just to get points taken off their license).

I gave a year of my life to my country through AmeriCorps, managing a team of six people tutoring inner city kids in reading, providing teacher assistance, and running after school programs. I'm extremely proud of that work, and wish more people could have that experience.

Makes sense, but it also sounds like a lot of money to hire all the supervisors and project managers they need t cover all the students.

At the same time, I think it's a good initiative, and I would have liked to have that opportunity (since I did about that much a year for free), I'm just concerned with the cost of implementing it

[Msut77]

:rofl:

Yes because the person who wins the first debate will win the whitehouse! If that was the case Obama would be up by 25 points in election polls.

There being a chance that Obama will not win in November is not the same thing as the debate being a draw.

Looking at you Kaijufan.

[Tybee]

Makes sense, but it also sounds like a lot of money to hire all the supervisors and project managers they need t cover all the students.

At the same time, I think it's a good initiative, and I would have liked to have that opportunity (since I did about that much a year for free), I'm just concerned with the cost of implementing it

No, I didn't mean managers and supervisors hired specifically for this program. These are the people running these projects already. I'm just saying when you work at one of these projects there's usually a person in charge who is authorized to initial your timesheet. That's how you track it. Then, after you do your 100 hours or whatever, the gov't could do a spot check (call one or two of the supervisors to verify). Pretty simple, actually.

If Obama is up by 3-4 points going into election day in polls, he's in trouble.

Well, there are reasons to agree with this and reasons not to. Obviously the big argument is that polling is underrepresenting racism and that will cost Obama something like 3 or 4 points. But I saw another interesting theory (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/09/ann-selzer-on-youth-minority-turnout.html) this morning that polling is significantly underrepresenting young voters and minorities by failing to correct for the fact that many of them do not use landlines. So it could be a push.

[HotShotX]

Why? To put out a "common misperception" pamphlet? More women are against abortion then men. But regardless of that, if you look at recent polling on the issue, it doesn't look like it will be a big factor in the election due to similar amounts of people placing it as an issue that will have a major effect on their votes.

Because it would be funny. Racist, but funny.

~HotShotX

[fatherofcaitlyn]

If Obama is up by 3-4 points going into election day in polls, he's in trouble.

Agreed.

If Palin continues the standards set in her interviews, that'll help Obama.

If the House Republicans continue slowing down the bailout, that'll help Obama.

If Israel bombs Iran, maybe Obama can win in 2012.

[fatherofcaitlyn]

Well, there are reasons to agree with this and reasons not to. Obviously the big argument is that polling is underrepresenting racism and that will cost Obama something like 3 or 4 points. But I saw another interesting theory (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/09/ann-selzer-on-youth-minority-turnout.html) this morning that polling is significantly underrepresenting young voters and minorities by failing to correct for the fact that many of them do not use landlines. So it could be a push.


Gallup has called my cell phone three times this week. I didn't answer because I was working.

[dmaul1114]

Gallup has called my cell phone three times this week. I didn't answer because I was working.

That's odd.

Wonder how they got it. I've been involved with some phone research over the past year, and the databases of phone numbers we used did not include cell phone numbers.

Probably got it from some source where you listed a cell phone as your contact that didn't have a privacy agreement I guess.

[Ecofreak]

If Obama is up by 3-4 points going into election day in polls, he's in trouble.

If McCain isn't at least tied with Obama in the key battleground states, then McCain's in big trouble.

Why?

Because he has absolutely ZERO ground game. I'm a volunteer here in Virginia and we have a whopping 86 offices throughout the state. By my last count, McCain has 3. I actually went to his website to check out the offices in Virginia, but got an Error page (http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/StateContact.htm)! I guess they don't want volunteers.

The week before last, Fairfax County alone (the "rich" suburb of DC) knocked on 30,000 doors for voter registration and persuasion. Last weekend, it was 50,000 doors.

Now, replicate this kind of effort across the 13 other battle ground states and you can image that the McCain had better hope for a significant game changer or this thing will be a blow out.

Seriously -- if every volunteer was paid minimum wage, the collective value of all the work they've put in would rival that of some mid-sized multinational corporation (if you count from the beginning of Primary season to now).

[rumblebear]

Wow at some of you Obama apologist. Obama is a sleazy snake oil salesmen who shamelessly used the death of a fallen soldier for his own political gain despite the wishes of the soldier's family. Unlike McCain, who has a military family and was a soldier himself, actually had an emotional connection to the fallen soldier on his bracelet. Obama cannot even remember the soldier's name on his bracelet that he's trying to exploit.

"I've got a bracelet too"
*looks down at bracelet*
*looks up*
*looks down at bracelet again*
"from Sergeant.. uhh... from mother of..uhh.. Sergeant Ryan David Jopek"
*finally look back up*.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Family Told Obama NOT To Wear Soldier Son's Bracelet
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/warner-todd-huston/2008/09/28/family-told-obama-not-wear-soldier-sons-bracelet-where-media
Barack Obama played the "me too" game during the Friday debates on September 26 after Senator John McCain mentioned that he was wearing a bracelet with the name of Cpl. Matthew Stanley, a resident of New Hampshire and a soldier that lost his life in Iraq in 2006. Obama said that he too had a bracelet. After fumbling and straining to remember the name, he revealed that his had the name of Sergeant Ryan David Jopek of Merrill, Wisconsin.

Shockingly, however, Madison resident Brian Jopek, the father of Ryan Jopek, the young soldier who tragically lost his life to a roadside bomb in 2006, recently said on a Wisconsin Public Radio show that his family had asked Barack Obama to stop wearing the bracelet with his son's name on it. Yet Obama continues to do so despite the wishes of the family.

Story Continues Below Ad ↓

Radio host Glenn Moberg of the show "Route 51" asked Mr. Jopek, a man who believes in the efforts in Iraq and is not in favor of Obama's positions on the war, what he and his ex-wife think of Obama continually using their son's name on the campaign trail.

Jopek began by saying that his ex-wife was taken aback, even upset, that Obama has made the death of her son a campaign issue. Jopek says his wife gave Obama the bracelet because "she just wanted Mr. Obama to know Ryan's name." Jopek went on to say that "she wasn't looking to turn it into a big media event" and "just wanted it to be something between Barack Obama and herself." Apparently, they were all shocked it became such a big deal.

But, he also said that his ex-wife has refused further interviews on the matter and that she wanted Obama to stop wearing the reminder of her son's sacrifice that he keeps turning into a campaign soundbyte. This begins at about 10 minutes into the radio program

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCO5S20L-pM

[SpazX]

Nice one rumblebear. McCain brings up a dead soldier to try to sway people emotionally and Obama is the one who's exploiting dead soldiers when he responds to it. Incredible.

Sorry that he had to look at the bracelet and didn't have his exploitation rehearsed well enough for you like McCain did.

[crunchb3rry]

Nice one rumblebear. McCain brings up a dead soldier to try to sway people emotionally and Obama is the one who's exploiting dead soldiers when he responds to it. Incredible.

Sorry that he had to look at the bracelet and didn't have his exploitation rehearsed well enough for you like McCain did.

QFT

[yukine]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/obama_bracelet;_ylt=AnkUKtPDVIWEu9_UYdifX.ADW7oF

[lordwow]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/obama_bracelet;_ylt=AnkUKtPDVIWEu9_UYdifX.ADW7oF

Thanks for coming out, rumblebear

[yukine]

I wish I was a Republican.

Then I'd be able to mourn and remember our troops and those who lost their lives on 9/11.

[fatherofcaitlyn]

I wish I was a Republican.

Then I'd be able to mourn and remember our troops and those who lost their lives on 9/11.

Why can't you be a Republican? Can't you find lead based paint?

[Msut77]

Wow at some of you Obama apologists...

Ignore the lying idiots.

http://townhall.com/news/politics-elections/2008/09/28/soldiers_mother_ecstatic_about_obamas_bracelet

The mother of a Wisconsin soldier who died in Iraq says she was "ecstatic" when Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama mentioned during Friday's debate the bracelet she gave him in honor of her son.

Tracy Jopek of Merrill told The Associated Press on Sunday she was honored that Obama remembered Sgt. Ryan David Jopek, who was killed in 2006 by a roadside bomb.

Sorry about the repost, does anyone think rumble will apologize or retract?

[rumblebear]

"Jopek: She has turned down any subsequent interviews with the media because she just didn't want it to get turned into something that it wasn't. She had told me in an email that she had asked, actually asked Mr. Obama to not wear the bracelet any more at any of his public appearances. Which I don't think he's..."

"Jopek: Right. But, the other night I was watching the news and he was on, uh, speaking somewhere and he was still wearing it on his right wrist. I could see it on his right wrist. So, that's his own choice. I mean that's something Barack Obama, that's a choice that he continues to wear it despite Tracy asking him not to... Because she is a Barack Obama supporter and she didn't want to do anything to sabotage his campaign, so, if he's still wearing the bracelet then, uh, that of course is entirely up to him."


To pile insult onto injury here, the Mother doesn't even want to force the issue of telling Obama to stop exploiting her son because she wants to see him win the election. Obama is not only taking advantage of this brave soldier's death, he is taking advantage of the good wishes of the man's Mother who doesn't want to hurt the campaign.

-----------------------------------


You Obama apologists are really stretching it aren't you. It's too bad we have actual voice recordings of Sgt. Jopek's father stating otherwise.

[Ecofreak]

You Obama apologists are really stretching it aren't you. It's too bad we have actual voice recordings of Sgt. Jopek's father stating otherwise.

Once again.. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/obama_bracelet;_ylt=AnkUKtPDVIWEu9_UYdifX.ADW7oF)

Jopek acknowledged e-mailing the Obama campaign in February asking that the presidential candidate not mention her son in speeches or debates. But she said Obama's mention on Friday was appropriate because he was responding after Sen. John McCain, the Republican nominee, said a soldier's mother gave him a bracelet.

So perhaps the mother and father disagree on the applicability of Senator Obama's usage of their son's bracelet. And it's really no one's place to assume they know what their fallen son's wishes would be. Yet should Senator Obama be held culpable for using an American Hero as a political tool, then Senator McCain should be held to the same standard -- regardless of whether or not their parents approve.

If you're going to be upset at someone, follow your logic to its natural conclusion and be disgusted with both of them about this. I support Senator Obama strongly, and disappointed across the board.

[freakyzeeky]

I think rumblebear got owned here... ;)

[dmaul1114]

Yet should Senator Obama be held culpable for using an American Hero as a political tool, then Senator McCain should be held to the same standard -- regardless of whether or not their parents approve.

If you're going to be upset at someone, follow your logic to its natural conclusion and be disgusted with both of them about this. I support Senator Obama strongly, and disappointed across the board.

Agreed. I groaned when McCain did that, and groaned even louder when Obama responded with the same.

[SpazX]

It sucks that it was brought up at all and I too groaned when McCain started the whole thing. Obama's counterpoint was good, though maybe he shouldn't have actually said "I've got a bracelet too."

[Msut77]

"Jopek: She has turned down any subsequent interviews with the media because she just didn't want it to get turned into something that it wasn't. She had told me in an email that she had asked, actually asked Mr. Obama to not wear the bracelet any more at any of his public appearances. Which I don't think he's..."

"Jopek: Right. But, the other night I was watching the news and he was on, uh, speaking somewhere and he was still wearing it on his right wrist. I could see it on his right wrist. So, that's his own choice. I mean that's something Barack Obama, that's a choice that he continues to wear it despite Tracy asking him not to... Because she is a Barack Obama supporter and she didn't want to do anything to sabotage his campaign, so, if he's still wearing the bracelet then, uh, that of course is entirely up to him."


To pile insult onto injury here, the Mother doesn't even want to force the issue of telling Obama to stop exploiting her son because she wants to see him win the election. Obama is not only taking advantage of this brave soldier's death, he is taking advantage of the good wishes of the man's Mother who doesn't want to hurt the campaign.

-----------------------------------


You Obama apologists are really stretching it aren't you. It's too bad we have actual voice recordings of Sgt. Jopek's father stating otherwise.

His father and mother are divorced, he really has nothing to do with the bracelet issue at all.

You are a dishonest little slimeball.

[MSI Magus]

hehe you know whats funny, every last poll has Obama as winning the debate......except Fox News! What a surprise that every poll everyone does has Obama leading 15-25% but by some miracle Fox managed to take the single freaking poll that shows that all the other polls just suffer from a 15-25% margin of error!

My guess, they conducted their poll at a retirement home.

[Koggit]

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/tl5xazv3nucritnggvi34q.gif

[trq]

I'd say it was pretty close, but I'd have to give the nod to Obama by a hair. He had more substantive answers, whereas McCain relied on talking points a bit too much -- the ol' "easy solutions to complicated problems" bit. There's no question that our next president, no matter who he is, will be orders of magnitude smarter than our current commander in chief. Our next VP is a whole 'nother matter ...

[dmaul1114]

Yeah, I'd agree with that assessment trq. Though McCain did MUCH better than I expected.

[SteveDaWonder]

I honestly don't think there was a clear winner.

However, I do think both McCain and Obama made a good showing and debated well.

[MSI Magus]

Well just finished watching and I disagree with people here. I think Obama won by more then a slight margin. I mean McCain stumbled over a world leader name or 2 and had no clue that Kissinger had said......then freaking argued over it which made him simply look stupid. He also kept spouting campaign lines over and over again such as the "ill make them famous" and "I saw three letters KGB" lines. Obama in contrast actually knew some things I was surprised to hear he knew and didnt stumble at all. He also unlike McCain addressed the proper people vs staring into space AND he was countering McCains points where as again McCain tended to pull out lines we have heard before or repeat the vicious lies. O and forgot too Obama actually conceded points to McCain. I know that can be a no no, but in an intelligent debate its nice to see sometimes.

[rumblebear]

His father and mother are divorced, he really has nothing to do with the bracelet issue at all.

You are a dishonest little slimeball.

Yeah nevermind it was his wife who told him how she felt about Obama's use of her son's bracelet. Obviously the father must be lying somehow right? Are you going to resort back to that pathetic Obama damage control article that basically coerced the poor mother who happens to be his supporter to participate in the spin? (which is already nullified by what Jopek's father said earlier) Sorry, the original Jopek article holds far more weight than your sleazy damage control. I swear many of you Obama supporters are really delusional like the members of Scientology cult for refusing to see the obvious, and had to resort to this form of denial and spin. Well I guess they didn't call you guys the Cult of Obama for nothing.





"Jopek: She has turned down any subsequent interviews with the media because she just didn't want it to get turned into something that it wasn't. She had told me in an email that she had asked, actually asked Mr. Obama to not wear the bracelet any more at any of his public appearances. Which I don't think he's..."

"Jopek: Right. But, the other night I was watching the news and he was on, uh, speaking somewhere and he was still wearing it on his right wrist. I could see it on his right wrist. So, that's his own choice. I mean that's something Barack Obama, that's a choice that he continues to wear it despite Tracy asking him not to... Because she is a Barack Obama supporter and she didn't want to do anything to sabotage his campaign, so, if he's still wearing the bracelet then, uh, that of course is entirely up to him."

To pile insult onto injury here, the Mother doesn't even want to force the issue of telling Obama to stop exploiting her son because she wants to see him win the election. Obama is not only taking advantage of this brave soldier's death, he is taking advantage of the good wishes of the man's Mother who doesn't want to hurt the campaign.

[yukine]

She didn't want it to turn into a big deal, which it has no thanks to her ex-husband.
Clearly, he doesn't care to go against her wishes either.

Why can't you accept that it was equally unneeded on both sides? It was obviously a bullet point on McCain's debate and Obama replied accordingly, she already said it was appropriate and that she doesn't mind Obama wearing the bracelet.

So you can either go based on HER own words, or by her ex-husband's words. Oh, but you can't rely on her words because obviously the liberal media is brainwashing her AMIRITE?

[Msut77]

Yeah nevermind it was his wife who told him how she felt about Obama's use of her son's bracelet. Obviously the father must be lying somehow right?

Instead of saying "nevermind" how about we focus on the fact that it was (notice the past tense) his wife and he is talking out of his ass.

P.s. Someone as dishonest as you does not get to accuse others of being cult members.

[yukine]

Christ, there are more important things going on in our country right now than this bologna controversy.

It is "lipstick on a pig" again.

Republicans are getting desperate when this is the best they can do against "gettin' dirt on that half-rican."

[speedracer]

I thought it was push and as others have pointed out, probably wasn't good for McCain since he seemed to have the topic-home-field-advantage.

The part about McCain saying vets know he'll take care of them made me want to fucking vomit. That's why you came out against the new GI Bill before flipping when it became obvious it was going to pass, right John?

That one comment, an outright fucking lie and using his military experience as cover to boot, makes him absolutely unelectable in my mind. Where are you, pro-veteran Republicans? Oh that's right, you only use us when you need us for political expediency.

[Msut77]

http://www.topshelfdogfood.com/2008/10/fox-news-guy-calls-landslide-vote-split.html

Lets do some more scientific polling.

We will call the little old lady who beats her husband into submission the outlier.