The Auto Industry Bailout Thread

[mykevermin]

I'm surprised there hasn't been one yet.

What are your opinions? Let 'em fall, or are they "too big to fall"?

[mykevermin]

What kicked me right in the balls was seeing that Robert Nardelli was the CEO/spokesperson for Chrysler.

Who's Robert Nardelli, you ask? The man who took the golden parachute concept, added bells, hookers, a wet bar, a swimming pool, and a Playstation 3 to his golden parachute: $210 million severance package to leave Home Depot. The story there is that he refused to have his annual salary (over $38 million) tied to the stock performance of Home Depot; knowing that shareholders would (rightfully) shit bricks over his refusal (and not the size of his pay already!?!?!?), he negotiated a "mutual agreement" to resign from Home Depot.

So he got shitcanned and took $210 million home for it. And now he's running Chrysler. Strangely enough, they suddenly need $7 Billion in emergency funds.

The breakdown is this: 2 weeks back, the 'big 3' were asking for $25 billion. Today, it's $34 billion. How it breaks down:

$7 Billion: Chrysler
$9 Billion: Ford
$18 Billion: GM

The strange bedfellows are coming to roost with the new "elite socialism" of our government. I just read a Michelle Malkin blog I agree with. Woah.

[docvinh]

I'm not quite sure what we should do about this. My gut feeling is that we shouldn't give them the money because they've run themselves into the ground, and there's no guarantee that they would stick around even if we gave them the money. However, I do feel bad about all the people who would probably lose their jobs because of it. One thing I do think though is that they should just let Chrysler go, I think they were having problems well before the credit crunch, and I just don't see them as very competitive in the auto market anyway. I do like how all of a sudden they sold their jets and are willing to take 1 dollar salaries.:)

[docvinh]

What kicked me right in the balls was seeing that Robert Nardelli was the CEO/spokesperson for Chrysler.

Who's Robert Nardelli, you ask? The man who took the golden parachute concept, added bells, hookers, a wet bar, a swimming pool, and a Playstation 3 to his golden parachute: $210 million severance package to leave Home Depot. The story there is that he refused to have his annual salary (over $38 million) tied to the stock performance of Home Depot; knowing that shareholders would (rightfully) shit bricks over his refusal (and not the size of his pay already!?!?!?), he negotiated a "mutual agreement" to resign from Home Depot.

So he got shitcanned and took $210 million home for it. And now he's running Chrysler. Strangely enough, they suddenly need $7 Billion in emergency funds.

The breakdown is this: 2 weeks back, the 'big 3' were asking for $25 billion. Today, it's $34 billion. How it breaks down:

$7 Billion: Chrysler
$9 Billion: Ford
$18 Billion: GM

The strange bedfellows are coming to roost with the new "elite socialism" of our government. I just read a Michelle Malkin blog I agree with. Woah.
I thought Ford wasn't asking for any money right now, they were just asking for a line of credit in case the other two manufacturers go down?

[mykevermin]

Ford's up on capitol hill today asking for money so far as I can tell.

It's all "lines of credit," of course. But let's not think silly thoughts like it'll ever get paid back by a single penny.

[benjamouth]

Let them fall, they will fall in the end anyway, this is just prolonging the inevitable for a bit.

But then again thats my answer to everything, if it's gonna burn, let it fucking burn.

The UK government tried to prop up a big Uk car manufacturer called Rover for years, they went belly up in the end. Slightly different situation but in the end they just couldn't compete as a manufacturer.

[fatherofcaitlyn]

If GM and Chrysler merge, we would only need $27 billion.

Merger ON!

The downside of letting the big 3 fall is the possible loss of employment of 3 million people.

I wouldn't normally care, but I saw the state of Indiana has to borrow money from the Feds to pay unemployment before something this bad for economy occurs.

I think the bailout should be given akin to the AIG bailout. Put the interest rate 1000 basis points (10%) above the Libor rate.

This is a high risk personal loan to companies with shitty track records.

With the interest rate that high, the big 3 will have to sell off pieces of themselves to pay for the loan. That will create smaller companies that can absorb the loss of jobs. If the big 3 actually turn themselves around, they'll be able to refinance part or all of the loan at a lower interest rate.

All that and huge penalties for patently frivolous spending such as spa retreats.

[mykevermin]

penalties paid for with...more borrowed money from the government?

[Friend of Sonic]

I liked some of what Michael Moore had to say about the situation. There needs to be a lot of oversight-- better cars and make them hybrid as well. I don't know if bailing them out is the right response, but we might as well get a giant push for quality out of them if we do. Not that will happen either.

[NTolerance]

First of all, naturally I completely disagree with any sort of bailout for these clowns.

But what I find interesting here is the timing and the amount of money involved. The 1+ trillion mega-bailout has already happened and was pushed through very quickly in spite of public discontent. Then a month or so later and you've got this 35 billion drop-in-the-bucket. It's facing a lot more resistance than the mega-bailout did. It's almost like Congress wants to resist this one for a bit as a PR move. They fast-tracked the mega-bailout but then put this off so they could act like they're actually representing the people. Compare the amount of press this is getting to the mega-bailout. I've seen a lot more coverage of this piddly auto bailout. Again, piddly in comparison to the mega-bailout.

mega-bailout = 46" HDTV
auto-bailout = used 360 game

[mykevermin]

well, if you define 'drop in the bucket' as 5% of the bucket, perhaps. But, yeah, I totally get your overall point.

I kinda wanted to see AIG fail. OTOH, I'd have one less reason to sneer at Manchester United if they had a different sponsor on their jerseys.

[Liquid 2]

Let them fail. They don't deserve to be around. They're stagnant companies that do nothing but stifle innovation and competition because of how large they are.

They need to pay for their mismanagement.

[Mike23]

GM has consistently won awards for innovation. I think that those against a bailout are generally ignoring the human costs of letting these companies fail. Copious billions out of the economy and an enormous ripple effect that makes $27B look like a drop in the backout.

That said, I'd make sure they had a plan to return to solvency and growth - as well, I'd force the unions into concessions for these bailout payments.

[fatherofcaitlyn]

penalties paid for with...more borrowed money from the government?

:lol:

Yeah. It is tough to get blood out of stinking pile of crap.

However, the government can seize assets that aren't required for the company to survive.

Also, the CEOs can cosign the loans.

That last company jet doesn't make the assembly line any faster.

Those personal mansions or stock shares in other companies the CEO owns? Nope, Uncle Succubus owns them now.

Instead of the CEOs working for $1 per year, how about they have a net worth of $1 for 10 years?

There are lots of ways for the government to recoup losses.

[BillyBob29]

We are really in a damned if we, damned if we don't scenario here.

Obviously, these 3 companies suck. They have done nothing but blow through $100's of billions over the past 20 years and what do they have to show for it? Nothing, but one horrible decision after another. They are dinosaurs in the industry. The markets and the fundamental failures of their core business operations say we let them fail.

However, if we let them fail we will lose between 1 and 3 million jobs. The US job market is in horrible shape as is so piling on another few million jobs in short order is certainly something we should avoid if possible.

But then again, if we do bail them out we are guaranteed to at least 1 merger, making it the big 2 instead of the big 3. This merger in itself will result in significant job cuts, estimates but a GM/Chrysler merger resulting in between 500k and 1 million job losses when all is said and done, so no matter how we proceed we are going to lose a significant number of jobs.

My bet is that the automakers basically get a loan to cover them for the next few quarters, basically long enough to pass the buck and final decision onto the next administration.

[Ikohn4ever]

well if they declare bankruptcy it wouldnt be such a bad thing. They could restructure, change existing contracts, and hopefully it would force them to sell off parts to make themselves profitable.

[dmaul1114]

Agreed. It's really damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I'd rather just let them fail. If they didn't want to be in this situation they shouldn't have been making cars that were inferior to foreign auto makers (I didn't even bother going to any of these dealer's when shopping for my last two cars--bought a Subaru in 1999 and a Mazda last year, as nothing caught my eye on their sites or the review sites) and been smarter with their money.

But it's a lot of jobs lost, effects suppliers of parts to their factories etc. etc. so they may well be too big to fail.

[thrustbucket]

So those three automakers spent $50 million in lobbying congress (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/03/cbsnews_investigates/main4646424.shtml) just in the first 3 9 months of this year, and now they want bailouts?

Let them fail. It will be painful, but needs to happen.

And as far as jobs being hurt, haven't these countries slowly been NAFTAing the past 15 years anyway?

[mykevermin]

Well, that certainly puts things in perspective, thrust.

[MSI Magus]

My fiancee works for a company called Norplas that makes 90% of their bussiness through GM. Her boss has pretty much said they go under we go under. Given that I want the bail out.

Normally though I would be extremely torn between letting them fail and bailing them out. You hate to let all those people loose their jobs and you hate to let it have the effect on the economy it will. On the flip side you hate to reward bad behaviour, hate to set this precedent and you hate to do the thing that no one is thinking about......let congress do something like this under the guise that it is for one purpose when it really is for another. Chris Dodd was complaining recently about how the bail out money has been going to the wrong places and spent in ways congress didnt intend. A bail out for the Automotive industry would be intended to do one thing....but would somehow end up being spent on others.

[VipFREAK]

Let them die...

[MSI Magus]

Before I go to play games just going to add to this too that I have seen a number of reports suggesting that foreign auto makers from places like Japan are already waiting in the background to sweep in if they crash too. I am curious as to how long that process might take....but also what effect it might have on American psyche if Japanese/Korean companies buy out a company like GM.

[Fragonard]

If we bail them out now, why would the be motivated to change anything? It's basically like telling them that its fine that they don't adapt to the times and make fuel efficient cars. Oh, you don't know how to manage your company and make shitty cars at the same time? Sure, I'd love to give you billions of dollars to repeat the process all over again.

Let them fail. It will be better for everyone in the long run.

[elprincipe]

OTOH, I'd have one less reason to sneer at Manchester United if they had a different sponsor on their jerseys.

There are SO many different reasons though, AIG is really the drop in the bucket on that one.

But anyway, let these jokers go into bankruptcy. They ran their businesses in idiotic ways. Remember, like Sony, they once were dominant in their field - the "Big Three" once had dominant market share in the U.S. Let them reorganize themselves if they can, and if they die so be it. We're already doing enough stupid things in propping up other companies that should have died/been sold off and don't need another boondoggle. A few weeks ago $25 billion, now $34 billion, next month $50 billion, then later next year another $50 billion is where I see this going if the doofuses who keep giving away our money to idiots who deserve to be prosecuted have their way.

[RAMSTORIA]

i say let them fail.

but ya know what, we already handed out trillions to companies that shoudl fail as well, just give them the money and shut them up and they can fail again in a few more years. the 30 billion they want is a small dent in the hole that the government has created the past few months with the bailouts. fuck it.

[ITDEFX]

ok...can someone tell me how the fuck can the auto industry fail just like that? Big oil won't stand for it!

[JolietJake]

I'm torn on the issue personally. From a business stand point, they can burn for all i care, the US auto industry has been in decline for years, this is just the culmination of their bad decisions.

On the other hand, a lot of people are employed by these companies and i don't really want all of those people to lose their jobs. Of course, the unions aren't willing to negotiate either, so i guess these people would rather lose their jobs outright than take a cut in pay.

[JolietJake]

Has anyone else thought about how strange it would be to have these companies gone?These are very old american companies that have survived tough times before, to have them no longer exist would seem so strange.

It'd be like Coke going out of business, an icon of american business would be gone.

[CaseyRyback]

I can't stomach how anyone would want to see these companies fail. They didn't fail because of lack of innovation, they failed because American's stopped buying cars and because they are competing at a heavy disadvantage. Let's not forget that they all have to pay massive amounts in health care and pensions as opposed to all these other auto makers, they have a much older work force than any of the other auto makers, they are not getting the tax breaks that many of these companies are getting for their plants in the south, etc.

Also when Chrysler got bailed out almost 30 years ago the taxpayers ended up making money.

[JolietJake]

Eh, american automobiles have been pretty stale for a while, seems like the foreign companies are the ones always taking chances on new things and the american companies just follow suit.

[docvinh]

Before I go to play games just going to add to this too that I have seen a number of reports suggesting that foreign auto makers from places like Japan are already waiting in the background to sweep in if they crash too. I am curious as to how long that process might take....but also what effect it might have on American psyche if Japanese/Korean companies buy out a company like GM.

This is an interesting point. Even if the American car companies go bankrupt, other global companies would still be around to buy up the pieces, which would still probably save some jobs, right?

[VipFREAK]

I can't stomach how anyone would want to see these companies fail. They didn't fail because of lack of innovation, they failed because American's stopped buying cars and because they are competing at a heavy disadvantage.

My main beef is with GM... You build one car and then make 4 others by slapping on a different badge. Then they make predominately SUVs and think they're golden for the rest of the time. Yeah... FAIL and they deserve to go down.

[dmaul1114]

ok...can someone tell me how the fuck can the auto industry fail just like that? Big oil won't stand for it!

It's not the auto industry. They're are plenty of the automakers doing better and ready to fill the void left if these failed.

So big oil has no cause for concern.

[thamaster24]

This is disturbing not because of the recession but also globalization. Of course, globalization is not disturbing, what is, is the way Honda, Nissan, and Toyota etc.. compete with American companies like Ford and Chevy. It only adds to the ridiculous amount of importing we do for products. this is resulted by our U.S. companies trying to find cheaper labor by going overseas or exporting jobs. I'm not talking about the car industry exporting but the whole state of tons of U.S. labor jobs.

I say the only way to give them the bailout is to have them guarantee a specific production amount of cars that are extremely fuel efficient by a certain date. Of course if they didn't meet the date I'm not sure what could be done. A big factor here is simply that these foreign cars are cheaper and most of the time more fuel efficient. So what can the U.S. companies do other than build new more fuel efficient cars with different fuel technology. If they fail, the U.S. car industry doesn't look too good. You can't just let a major segment of business fail, foreign companies would come in and create incredible high barriers of entry for anyone new trying to come and compete.

[MSI Magus]

You know one of the things I love about this is that congress for years has fought mandatory gas mileage law. They have voted down time and time again bill after bill that would require higher gas mileage in cars......now they have the nerve to stand up and talk down to the automotive industry that because they didnt raise efficiency they are failing.

[thrustbucket]

I can't stomach how anyone would want to see these companies fail. They didn't fail because of lack of innovation, they failed because American's stopped buying cars and because they are competing at a heavy disadvantage. Let's not forget that they all have to pay massive amounts in health care and pensions as opposed to all these other auto makers, they have a much older work force than any of the other auto makers, they are not getting the tax breaks that many of these companies are getting for their plants in the south, etc.

Also when Chrysler got bailed out almost 30 years ago the taxpayers ended up making money.

Well in many ways our own government has created an atmosphere, or, more like allowed one to be created, where the automakers can not really compete with foreign car company's. The unions have them by the short and curly's and they can't make any headway on any negotiations. Their only choice is to outsource more and more to mexico etc, but they know that they will get little government help if they do that. They are really in a no win situation, and even with bailout money they will likely still fail - unless the unions are somehow forced to make massive concessions.

There are plenty of auto plants in this country doing just fine (Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, etc), they just aren't American owned and they aren't in Michigan. So something is rotten in Denmark, so-to-speak. Something about the way American car company's choose, or are forced to, operate, just isn't working.

[freezedried74]

Good article from Mitch Albom, Detroit Free Press columnist.

OK. It's a fantasy. But if I had five minutes in front of Congress last week, here's what I would've said:


Good morning. First of all, before you ask, I flew commercial. Northwest Airlines. Had a bag of peanuts for breakfast. Of course, that's Northwest, which just merged with Delta, a merger you, our government, approved -- and one that, inevitably, will lead to big bonuses for their executives and higher costs for us. You seem to be OK with that kind of business.

Which makes me wonder why you're so against our kind of business? The kind we do in Detroit. The kind that gets your fingernails dirty. The kind where people use hammers and drills, not keystrokes. The kind where you get paid for making something, not moving money around a board and skimming a percentage.

You've already given hundreds of billions to banking and finance companies -- and hardly demanded anything. Yet you balk at the very idea of giving $25 billion to the Detroit Three. Heck, you shoveled that exact amount to Citigroup -- $25 billion -- just weeks ago, and that place is about to crumble anyhow.

Does the word "hypocrisy" ring a bell?

Protecting the home turf?

Sen. Richard Shelby. Yes. You. From Alabama. You've been awfully vocal. You called the Detroit Three's leaders "failures." You said loans to them would be "wasted money." You said they should go bankrupt and "let the market work."

Why weren't you equally vocal when your state handed out hundreds of millions in tax breaks to Mercedes-Benz, Hyundai, Honda and others to open plants there? Why not "let the market work"? Or is it better for Alabama if the Detroit Three fold so that the foreign companies -- in your state -- can produce more?

Way to think of the nation first, senator.

And you, Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona. You told reporters: "There's no reason to throw money at a problem that's not going to get solved."

That's funny, coming from such an avid supporter of the Iraq war. You've been gung ho on that for years. So how could you just sit there when, according to the New York Times, an Iraqi former chief investigator told Congress that $13 billion in U.S. reconstruction funds "had been lost to fraud, embezzlement, theft and waste" by the Iraqi government?

That's 13 billion, senator. More than half of what the auto industry is asking for. Thirteen billion? Gone? Wasted?

Where was your "throwing money at a problem that's not going to get solved" speech then?

Watching over the bankers?

And the rest of you lawmakers. The ones who insist the auto companies show you a plan before you help them. You've already handed over $150 billion of our tax money to AIG. How come you never demanded a plan from it? How come when AIG blew through its first $85 billion, you quickly gave it more? The car companies may be losing money, but they can explain it: They're paying workers too much and selling cars for too little.

AIG lost hundred of billions in credit default swaps -- which no one can explain and which make nothing, produce nothing, employ no one and are essentially bets on failure.

And you don't demand a paragraph from it?

Look. Nobody is saying the auto business is healthy. Its unions need to adjust more. Its models and dealerships need to shrink. Its top executives have to downsize their own importance.

But this is a business that has been around for more than a century. And some of its problems are because of that, because people get used to certain wages, manufacturers get used to certain business models. It's easy to point to foreign carmakers with tax breaks, no union costs and a cleaner slate -- not to mention help from their home countries -- and say "be more like them."

But if you let us die, you let our national spine collapse. America can't be a country of lawyers and financial analysts. We have to manufacture. We need that infrastructure. We need those jobs. We need that security. Have you forgotten who built equipment during the world wars?

Besides, let's be honest. When it comes to blowing budgets, being grossly inefficient and wallowing in debt, who's better than Congress?

So who are you to lecture anyone on how to run a business?

Ask fair questions. Demand accountability. But knock it off with the holier-than-thou crap, OK? You got us into this mess with greed, a bad Fed policy and too little regulation. Don't kick our tires to make yourselves look better.

[mykevermin]

You know one of the things I love about this is that congress for years has fought mandatory gas mileage law. They have voted down time and time again bill after bill that would require higher gas mileage in cars......now they have the nerve to stand up and talk down to the automotive industry that because they didnt raise efficiency they are failing.

This is an important and relevant point.

They didn't fail because of lack of innovation, they failed because American's stopped buying cars and because they are competing at a heavy disadvantage.

Let's spread blame where it's due. Like MSI's point, I drove past a dealership the other day and saw a Ford Shitmobile (like whatever they make now that's around a Focus or cheaper) with "34 MPG!" marked on the windshield. That tells me all I need to know about innovation in the US auto industry. I bought my current car in 2001. It gets 32 city and 36/37 highway. It's a Honda Civic, mid-range (and MT, which I *think* helps the mileage). But it's a 7 year old car (150K shy of the 250K I plan on putting on it). And Ford's just now getting around to competing with 2001 foreign autos with their low-end cars. This aspect has nothing to do with the current economy.

American automakers banked their futures (wrongly, we see) on SUVs and pick'mup trucks. Big Freudian Dickmobiles. HIGHLY profitable dickmobiles, but their financial security was premised on the American peoples' willingness to abandon any concern about energy usage and environmental destruction. And they were right; until that environmental destruction came with a marginally higher economic cost in high gas prices. Suddenly, the big 3 weren't selling autos much at all, but more importantly, they weren't selling their high-profit dickmobiles. Which is where their innovation was focused, primarily.

GM's HUGE announcement this year was the "Volt." 12 gallons = 400 miles in this car (in a hybrid). Again, that's not innovation. That's being able to run a 4 minute mile, but being the 5,000th person to do it, and doing it 40 years after the first person to do it. Impressive? Maybe. But it's not 'innovation' by any stretch of the imagination. It's playing catch up, and doing so poorly.

Let's not forget that they all have to pay massive amounts in health care and pensions as opposed to all these other auto makers, they have a much older work force than any of the other auto makers, they are not getting the tax breaks that many of these companies are getting for their plants in the south, etc.

An argument I ask students in my intro class (while discussing globalization) is to tell me what an "American automobile" is (if I get that teaching job in Detroit I may give up this part of my lecture ;)). Toyota and Honda employ thousands (tens of?) in the Ohio/Indiana/Kentucky area. Most Toyotas sold in the US are made in the US. GM builds a large number of autos in Mexico, and their parts are manufactured elsewhere. What's it mean to "buy American" in this day and age? To keep Robert Nardelli fat and happy by buying a lunk of shit Chrysler? Or to keep Billy Bob in southern Kentucky employed by buying a Toyota Camry?

But do you think that those people building Camrys are paid less, or have fewer benefits?

Also when Chrysler got bailed out almost 30 years ago the taxpayers ended up making money.

You got me there. In 7th/8th grade I read and presented on a biography of Lee Iacocca (I told y'all I had a sordid past as a conservative republican. I just happened to be 13.). He did turn around Chrysler magnificently during that time. Can they do it again? I don't know; we need to rekindle some of that rah-rah screw-the-japs buy-american-autos sentiment that we had in the 1980's in order to do so. And since they employ so many Americans, I don't see that happening.

But maybe we'll get a remake of the film "Gung Ho" out of it. Which is cool, I guess.

[thrustbucket]

Interesting article.

He dances around the real answer though, but doesn't seem to want to accept it; that Congress works for the banks, and has since before any of us were born. So there should be no real surprise to anyone, at the double standard.

[freezedried74]

GM's HUGE announcement this year was the "Volt." 12 gallons = 400 miles in this car (in a hybrid). Again, that's not innovation. That's being able to run a 4 minute mile, but being the 5,000th person to do it, and doing it 40 years after the first person to do it. Impressive? Maybe. But it's not 'innovation' by any stretch of the imagination. It's playing catch up, and doing so poorly.


I think your thinking is a bit off on the Volt. Can any other mass produced vehicle drive 40 miles without using a drop of gas? I know with my commute I would never need to go to the pump again if I had a Volt.

[MSI Magus]

I think your thinking is a bit off on the Volt. Can any other mass produced vehicle drive 40 miles without using a drop of gas? I know with my commute I would never need to go to the pump again if I had a Volt.

Fiancee and her company have also been very impresed with the Volt(they recently were given contracts to manufacture parts for it). They are a Canadian owned company run out of Ohio and most of her bosses are canucks. They have a lot of bad to say about GM....but everyone seems to be truly impressed with the volt.

[Renaissance 2K]

ok...can someone tell me how the fuck can the auto industry fail just like that? Big oil won't stand for it!
Big Oil can bail them out, then. The Big Three provided them with the cushy gas prices that bought their mansions and jets, so it's only fair.

[mykevermin]

I think your thinking is a bit off on the Volt. Can any other mass produced vehicle drive 40 miles without using a drop of gas? I know with my commute I would never need to go to the pump again if I had a Volt.

Fair enough. So it's quite useful if you never drive more than 40 miles b/w charges. A good start, I suppose.

[thrustbucket]

Is the chevy volt really ever going to be mass produced?

[mykevermin]

Is the General Motors EV1 really ever going to be mass produced?

fixed.

I want one of these:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Think_City_2007.jpg/759px-Think_City_2007.jpg

Norway: the new dominant force in the auto industry.

And GM owns Vauxhall? Who the fuck buys Vauxhalls these days?

[plasticbathmonki]

This is an important and relevant point.

An argument I ask students in my intro class (while discussing globalization) is to tell me what an "American automobile" is (if I get that teaching job in Detroit I may give up this part of my lecture ;)). Toyota and Honda employ thousands (tens of?) in the Ohio/Indiana/Kentucky area. Most Toyotas sold in the US are made in the US. GM builds a large number of autos in Mexico, and their parts are manufactured elsewhere. What's it mean to "buy American" in this day and age? To keep Robert Nardelli fat and happy by buying a lunk of shit Chrysler? Or to keep Billy Bob in southern Kentucky employed by buying a Toyota Camry?



Here is an interesting video from the most advanced Ford plant even constructed:

http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

Ford is also building a plant in Mexico to build a variety of new models, including the Fiesta ECOnetic, a sub-compact diesel gas-saver, which isn't slated for the US market. The tab for this new plant: $3 billion.

[BillyBob29]

Well one thing that the big 3 have said would come from this next round or restructuring is a move toward a global product lineup, as opposed to how they operate now where they all sell different autos in each global marketplace.

I believe the Volt is slated for "production" in 2010 but from what I've heard that production won't be anywhere close to the levels of your average family sedan like the Accord or something. In the grand scheme of things, it will probably still be a relatively low volume auto for many years and the first model years are likely to depreciate like crazy since I think we will see dramatic improvements in battery life over the next few years.

[xycury]

Geo made a fantastic car, back before Chevy bought and destroyed them. My '95 Prizm is about 14 years old, still getting 30+/gallon.. sure it's tiny and not much of a family vehicle, but i've had so little repairs and I'm getting to 150k on it.

I couldn't say the same to my 94 Escort, which litterly suicided/fried it's own alternator and took down every wire in a 3 foot radius while it was OFF in the parking lot...

The big 3 failed to innovate, and they deserve to get punished.


I think the Government should hold that 25.. err wait now 34 billion and put it in bailing out the workers that now have no jobs. Let them go bankrupt. They can't continue to operate as they are, and they are too big, time to shrink.

It may have a rolling affect, but we can't continue to let them fail as such, they should have changed, they should have made the right choices, Bankrupcy is the option to making bad choices.

I say Ford should swallow GM and let them fire people, hopefully all upper management. It's not the workers in the factory that got them there, it was the fucking idiots above them that did.

We should have been getting hybrid vehicles since Toyota and Honda did... but we didn't. We're america and we made the damn car and we couldn't innovate and develope better tech before another company could have...

it's embarrassing, and they don't deserve a bailout. They don't deserve a hand out.

It's time to realize that the big three should have had to start doing something long time ago, they knew it, but they thought they too were like banks and could be rescued.

[dmaul1114]

Fair enough. So it's quite useful if you never drive more than 40 miles b/w charges. A good start, I suppose.

Yeah, we've had discussions on this here several times. Electric cars will probably never appeal to me due to the limited ranges. Especially these early one's with such small ranges.

I like the peace of mind of being able to drive however far I want and knowing there's tons of gas stations along the way to refuel. Electric cars/quick charging/battery swapping etc. is a long way from offering the same kind of convenience/accessibility if they ever get there.

Now decent plug in hybrids I'd be interested in for sure. Could use no gas on my commute to and from work, but can drive however far I want on gas at other times.

[xycury]

Yeah, we've had discussions on this here several times. Electric cars will probably never appeal to me due to the limited ranges. Especially these early one's with such small ranges.

I like the peace of mind of being able to drive however far I want and knowing there's tons of gas stations along the way to refuel. Electric cars/quick charging/battery swapping etc. is a long way from offering the same kind of convenience/accessibility if they ever get there.

Now decent plug in hybrids I'd be interested in for sure. Could use no gas on my commute to and from work, but can drive however far I want on gas at other times.

So what they need to do is make this electric car cheap enough for everyone to buy into, and this becomes your work vehicle. Other times, you can drive whatever you're driving now.

I really can't see why they couldn't do this years ago, unless the cost of the car would be too huge. I would love a vehicle that just runs on pure battery to go from work and home... that's all I do, every day.

[dmaul1114]

So what they need to do is make this electric car cheap enough for everyone to buy into, and this becomes your work vehicle. Other times, you can drive whatever you're driving now.

I really can't see why they couldn't do this years ago, unless the cost of the car would be too huge. I would love a vehicle that just runs on pure battery to go from work and home... that's all I do, every day.

I'd still prefer to just have one car and have it be a plug in hybrid that would be electric only for my work commute and gas otherwise.

Silly to have to cars and pay insurance on both, have to find parking for both (easy for some, harder if you're in a city and live in a building that only gives you one spot or has no parking and your paying monthly at a garage etc.).

Now I'm not saying they shouldn't make such cars. Just that I have no interest in them as convenience comes first for me.

[willardhaven]

They're failing because everyone is buying foreign (better) cars. Capitalism is a bitch, but if we're going socialist, let's bailout the dudes starving in the streets via public works and invest in education. What a novel idea...

Due to factory assembly and manufacturing I believe it's currently better for the environment to just drive a used 25 MPG sedan.

[CaseyRyback]

Well in many ways our own government has created an atmosphere, or, more like allowed one to be created, where the automakers can not really compete with foreign car company's. The unions have them by the short and curly's and they can't make any headway on any negotiations. Their only choice is to outsource more and more to mexico etc, but they know that they will get little government help if they do that. They are really in a no win situation, and even with bailout money they will likely still fail - unless the unions are somehow forced to make massive concessions.

There are plenty of auto plants in this country doing just fine (Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, etc), they just aren't American owned and they aren't in Michigan. So something is rotten in Denmark, so-to-speak. Something about the way American car company's choose, or are forced to, operate, just isn't working.

All those other auto makers are doing fine in America because they have been given massive tax breaks and numerous other advantages. States built the infastruture, educated the work force, and did everything short of sucking dick to get these companies here. They are part of the problem. They got all this shit handed to them and then they wonder why others can't compete.

And anyone hating on them for making SUV's needs to look in the mirror. These auto makers understood that the profit margins on these vehicles was greater and so the public ate them up. Solely blaming them when we as a culture have a fascination with heavy duty vehicles doesn't make much sense to me.

[mykevermin]

It's not my fault, or any Joe Public's fault, for the big three not having mechanisms in place to remain profitable on sales of automobiles that weren't SUVs. I'm with you: fuck the recklessness of people who buy SUVs and giant trucks. I've said that for over a decade now. Fuck 'em with a hybrid 10-foot pole.

But if people stop buying them, the company has to have plans to remain profitable by other means, or die. Not to not have a plan and then get government funding to avoid the death they deserve.

But, hey, I'm not against the bailout, really. Everyone should be bailed out. Give the big 3 $70 billion, twice their asking price. Should keep them alive for 8 more months. Give every American $250,000 in a bailout. I could pay off my student loans and debts, and also buy a nice sized house. I'll be economically solvent. Why does GM deserve it when I don't? We're ultimately, like we have been for 28 years now, spending money we don't have and don't care about paying back (remember how Bush became popular as a candidate because of Clinton's success, by taking the budget surplus we had and offering back to the public, who felt they deserved it, instead of beginning to pay back the $5.80 Trillion in debt we had accumulated since 1980?). Dick Cheney was right: deficits don't matter. Keep printing money. Bail me out. Bail GM out. Bail the Olmstead public school district out. Bail AIG out. Keep printing money. Keep adding to the deficit. It doesn't matter anyway. Keep printing money. Bail out and bring back the Cincinnati Stingers hockey team. Keep printing money. Bail everyone out for everything. Bail me out for that crappy "World Wrestling All-Stars" PPV I bought back in 2000. That show was total bullshit, and I made a mistake buying it. Gimmie my $20 back.

[MSI Magus]

All those other auto makers are doing fine in America because they have been given massive tax breaks and numerous other advantages. States built the infastruture, educated the work force, and did everything short of sucking dick to get these companies here. They are part of the problem. They got all this shit handed to them and then they wonder why others can't compete.

And anyone hating on them for making SUV's needs to look in the mirror. These auto makers understood that the profit margins on these vehicles was greater and so the public ate them up. Solely blaming them when we as a culture have a fascination with heavy duty vehicles doesn't make much sense to me.

I never owned an SUV and looked down on those that owned them while they were a fad. They tore up the fucking roads, cost way too much and were gas guzzlers. Just because America is fascinated with something doesnt mean the rest of us who realize how stupid it is should be punished whenever the fascination ends and they realize they owned an SUV and were bopping their heads to Britney Spears and thinking Eminem was hard.

[speedracer]

I'm sick and fucking tired of people blaming the unions as if it's their fault. When capital congregates and works together, it gets fucking worshiped. when labor does the same, it's the fucking anti-christ.

And of course it's labor's fault that capital signed a shit contract. Yep, let's all blame labor for all Detroit's problems.

If only there were unions to blame at Enron, Worldcom, AIG, Fannie, Freddie, the S&Ls, Bear Sterns, Wachovia, Washington Mutual, IndyMac, Ameribank, Lehman, and all the recipients of the $350 billion bailout, all would be right in our fascism-lite corporatist little worlds.

[MSI Magus]

I'm sick and fucking tired of people blaming the unions as if it's their fault. When capital congregates and works together, it gets fucking worshiped. when labor does the same, it's the fucking anti-christ.

And of course it's labor's fault that capital signed a shit contract. Yep, let's all blame labor for all Detroit's problems.

If only there were unions to blame at Enron, Worldcom, AIG, Fannie, Freddie, the S&Ls, Bear Sterns, Wachovia, Washington Mutual, IndyMac, Ameribank, Lehman, and all the recipients of the $350 billion bailout, all would be right in our fascism-lite corporatist little worlds.

But a big chunk of it IS labors fault. Just because big business is fucking up doesn't mean the American consumers and unions are not as well. The union was getting like $75-$100 per hour per worker when you take benefits into consideration which is just insane. You cant expect a business to run long with shit like that happening. Again my fiancee works in automotive and her company predicted this some time ago because of the insane benefits the union guys get....they just thought it would happen a few years from now.

[xycury]

I never owned an SUV and looked down on those that owned them while they were a fad. They tore up the fucking roads, cost way too much and were gas guzzlers. Just because America is fascinated with something doesnt mean the rest of us who realize how stupid it is should be punished whenever the fascination ends and they realize they owned an SUV and were bopping their heads to Britney Spears and thinking Eminem was hard.

Indeed, SUVs are the bane of the roads, that and monster trucks... people made awful choices and it's not my fault.

I can understand Minivans, but not Dualie Trucks on the road/highways... or 1 person People buses that they like to call SUV...

I'm sick and fucking tired of people blaming the unions as if it's their fault. When capital congregates and works together, it gets fucking worshiped. when labor does the same, it's the fucking anti-christ.

And of course it's labor's fault that capital signed a shit contract. Yep, let's all blame labor for all Detroit's problems.

If only there were unions to blame at Enron, Worldcom, AIG, Fannie, Freddie, the S&Ls, Bear Sterns, Wachovia, Washington Mutual, IndyMac, Ameribank, Lehman, and all the recipients of the $350 billion bailout, all would be right in our fascism-lite corporatist little worlds.

indeed, it's not the laborers fault for making SUVs that drink gas like it's water.

Though the unions that think they get 100/hour with the benefits need to look at it.... and that's probably the reason of why some plants ship to MEXICO...

it's time I think the Gov to step in and fire the top 1/3 and start with the guy right below them... make them smaller.

[Sporadic]

Save Chrysler and Ford...fuck GM

I'm sick and fucking tired of people blaming the unions as if it's their fault. When capital congregates and works together, it gets fucking worshiped. when labor does the same, it's the fucking anti-christ.

And of course it's labor's fault that capital signed a shit contract. Yep, let's all blame labor for all Detroit's problems.

If only there were unions to blame at Enron, Worldcom, AIG, Fannie, Freddie, the S&Ls, Bear Sterns, Wachovia, Washington Mutual, IndyMac, Ameribank, Lehman, and all the recipients of the $350 billion bailout, all would be right in our fascism-lite corporatist little worlds.

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/433/gmtoyotawagecomparedt9.jpg

[thrustbucket]

Shit I need to get a job with GM after they get bailout money.

Nobody is blaming the Unions for everything, speedracer. But they are not guiltless in this mess either. It's a multi-faceted problem. And it could be argued that the government ultimately created the problem with the banks by forcing them to give risky loans, just as it can be argued that the government ultimately helped create the problems for the auto makers through all their meddling.

There is blame to go around in every direction here. The question is, what, if anything, should be done about it.

[Renaissance 2K]

So, everybody's guilty.

Consumers are guilty for their obsession with SUVs despite the consequences.
Labor is guilty for demanding high salaries and benefits despite limited growth and improvement.
Capital is guilty for not adapting to changing markets.
Government is guilty for trying to make an example of automakers without addressing the issues.

We're so damn fucked.

[The Mana Knight]

Agreed. It's really damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I'd rather just let them fail. If they didn't want to be in this situation they shouldn't have been making cars that were inferior to foreign auto makers (I didn't even bother going to any of these dealer's when shopping for my last two cars--bought a Subaru in 1999 and a Mazda last year, as nothing caught my eye on their sites or the review sites) and been smarter with their money.

But it's a lot of jobs lost, effects suppliers of parts to their factories etc. etc. so they may well be too big to fail.Pretty much.

I'll admit I'm very upset with GM and other automakers and feel they deserve to fail.

However, many people in my area are employed by GM. There are also many plants in my area and surrounding area that make parts for GM. If GM goes under, my entire area goes down the drain (with tons of GM job losses) and all other companies who make stuff for GM would go under. There are a lot of companies in my state that tie in with the auto industry, and them failing would put us in the biggest depression ever. One of my old friends is a Mechanical Engineer at GM, and I'd be really sad to see him lose his job.

[Koggit]

"Too big to fall" is 100% legit

"They're shit at their job, fuck them over" is 100% legit

The solution is to take over their companies, kick out the worthless sacks of shit, nullify their golden parachutes, fine them, bust the unions and start fresh. Break shit. Break everything. But don't just let it fall, the US auto industry cannot be allowed to fall, it is not an option.

[elprincipe]

I liked this article:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/12/get_back_in_your_jets_and_go_a.html

[willardhaven]

The solution is to take over their companies, kick out the worthless sacks of shit, nullify their golden parachutes, fine them, bust the unions and start fresh. Break shit. Break everything. But don't just let it fall, the US auto industry cannot be allowed to fall, it is not an option.


There's something I can agree with.

[speedracer]

Shit I need to get a job with GM after they get bailout money. Nobody is blaming the Unions for everything, speedracer. But they are not guiltless in this mess either.
See, this is the part I don't get. If I pay you to do work and I as the business owner screw the pooch, is it your fault my business sucks?

And those Toyota numbers are shit for a number of reasons, not the least of which... surprise! Management. Toyota was chosen for comparison rather than a composite of foreign producers because its management has been arguably the best of the last 20 years. Their transition to just-in-time across all their business processes are the model for the entire business world in virtually all facets. They slashed their costs even as they produced more product through their techniques.

So yea, keep those garbage ass charts and data out of this thread unless it's put in context and relevant. I wonder why the chart didn't use Mitsu, or Kia.

And since it's the gold standard, how is Toyota doing? It's lost half its market cap in the last twelve months and its bonds were just down graded two weeks ago.

Nice chart though.

The solution is to take over their companies, kick out the worthless sacks of shit, nullify their golden parachutes, fine them, bust the unions and start fresh. Break shit. Break everything. But don't just let it fall, the US auto industry cannot be allowed to fall, it is not an option.

Given the fact you were arguing that America was going to get its money back on the AIG deal, I have to say I have difficulty taking your "bust the unions" (or any of the rest of your righteous indignation) seriously. Where was this when AIG was hat in hand?

Nobody's hands are clean here, but we're looking at (what everyone agrees is) three of the worst managed firms in America (outside of the financial industry) and we can't help but demand that the guy with the screw driver on the shop floor eat some crow. I don't get it.

[VipFREAK]

I wonder why the chart didn't use Mitsu, or Kia.

lool, Because they both suck.

[Koggit]

Given the fact you were arguing that America was going to get its money back on the AIG deal, I have to say I have difficulty taking your "bust the unions" (or any of the rest of your righteous indignation) seriously. Where was this when AIG was hat in hand?

Nobody's hands are clean here, but we're looking at (what everyone agrees is) three of the worst managed firms in America (outside of the financial industry) and we can't help but demand that the guy with the screw driver on the shop floor eat some crow. I don't get it.

AIG is infinitely better run than GM, and volatility of the company would have no impact on other businesses

AIG needs to remain stable and is in fine shape, GM can stand to be shaken up and needs a fresh slate

It's pretty sad that I've got to spell out the difference for you

[speedracer]

AIG is infinitely better run than GM, and volatility of the company would have no impact on other businesses

AIG needs to remain stable and is in fine shape, GM can stand to be shaken up and needs a fresh slate

It's pretty sad that I've got to spell out the difference for you
Quoted for lollers. AIG > GM = Hilarious.

[Richlough]

fixed.

I want one of these:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Think_City_2007.jpg/759px-Think_City_2007.jpg

Norway: the new dominant force in the auto industry.



Go ahead and drive your kids around in that . Be real careful not to get hit by an SUV when you're driving it . ;)

Save Chrysler and Ford...fuck GM

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/433/gmtoyotawagecomparedt9.jpg

Wow , do you know how many retirees GM has compared to Toyota ?
Check out their legacy costs in comparison .

And as far as what an American car is , I'd say it's one that is sold by a company that is listed in the U.S. stock market .

[Koggit]

Quoted for lollers. AIG > GM = Hilarious.

Yes, that is correct: AIG > GM and GM = hilarious

[BillyBob29]

Screw Ford and GM......Ferrari only sold 92 cars last month, down from an average of 600. With the US market being their primary market, they should apply for bailout funds as well with the promise of making 4 or 5 hybrid F430's a year.;)

The exotic car market is falling off a cliff and needs our taxpayer dollars!

[speedracer]

Yes, that is correct: AIG > GM and GM = hilarious
Please, please, please explain to me how AIG is a better run company than GM. Please include references to the $135b already invested in AIG, the taxpayers' "stock" in AIG dropping $9bil since the infusion (you remember that stock, it's the one you said we'd make money on right?), and the credit default swaps still sitting on AIG's books.

Thanks in advance.

[BillyBob29]

To be fair, no one said anything about making money on AIG right away. This was not a short term investment. The theory is that over the next 10-15 years AIG will prove to be a profitable investment and obviously it is way to early to say this has been a failed investment.

[MSI Magus]

To be fair, no one said anything about making money on AIG right away. This was not a short term investment. The theory is that over the next 10-15 years AIG will prove to be a profitable investment and obviously it is way to early to say this has been a failed investment.

I think the automotive industry can be just as profitable if not more so.....but the car guys need to start moving forward. America is still number 1 despite Globalization and will be for some time because of what we invest in science and technology(even if its not enough we still doing more). However the car industry has been one of the industries that hasn't moved forward. The American auto industry has rested on its name, its clout and the fact that when it comes to cars for some reason Americans have this idea that we must buy American. This has meant that foreign car companies have not only passed the US ones but pretty much lapped them.

Carlos Mencia has a joke that when America and Russia went to the moon we realized we couldnt write in space with current pen technology. Russia said fuck it and used the pencil where as the US invested millions to make a pen that could write in space. Its funny and if true its sad......but this kind of thinking is what the automotive industry needs. If foreign car companies are going to invent a car that gets 70 MPG then we need to say up yours and invest enough to find a way to make it 100 mpg. If foreign car companies say cars that can hover are the wave of the future we need to say cars that can fly are the wave of the future. The American auto industry must start looking not just at what is selling but at what the competition is doing and then 1 up it.

[BillyBob29]

I agree but the problem is that these companies are facing getting this loan is the lack of faith that they will actually change anything.

We have watched these companies go through dozens of restructuring processes over the past decade and NOTHING has really changed as a result. They keep making the same mistakes over and over again and now we want guarantees of real change this time. We don't want to give them money to keep them operating as is for another year. The money needs to be used for dramatic and immediate change.

[MSI Magus]

I agree but the problem is that these companies are facing getting this loan is the lack of faith that they will actually change anything.

We have watched these companies go through dozens of restructuring processes over the past decade and NOTHING has really changed as a result. They keep making the same mistakes over and over again and now we want guarantees of real change this time. We don't want to give them money to keep them operating as is for another year. The money needs to be used for dramatic and immediate change.

They COULD put huge strings in place, demand new execs and all sorts of other stuff. Will they? Probably will claim to but in reality no.

[xycury]

I think the automotive industry can be just as profitable if not more so.....but the car guys need to start moving forward. America is still number 1 despite Globalization and will be for some time because of what we invest in science and technology(even if its not enough we still doing more). However the car industry has been one of the industries that hasn't moved forward. The American auto industry has rested on its name, its clout and the fact that when it comes to cars for some reason Americans have this idea that we must buy American. This has meant that foreign car companies have not only passed the US ones but pretty much lapped them.

Carlos Mencia has a joke that when America and Russia went to the moon we realized we couldnt write in space with current pen technology. Russia said fuck it and used the pencil where as the US invested millions to make a pen that could write in space. Its funny and if true its sad......but this kind of thinking is what the automotive industry needs. If foreign car companies are going to invent a car that gets 70 MPG then we need to say up yours and invest enough to find a way to make it 100 mpg. If foreign car companies say cars that can hover are the wave of the future we need to say cars that can fly are the wave of the future. The American auto industry must start looking not just at what is selling but at what the competition is doing and then 1 up it.


Indeed, it's embarrassing... we made the car yet we're fallen at least 10 years behind other companies outside the US.

If it wasn't for how big they are, they should just bite the dust.

But with clost to a million or so people, that initial hit to unemployment would bankrupt that and hurt job markets all over.

It's a horrific wave of utter failure... and if the big 3 can't produce a selling product, there isn't any hope.

They need to shrink, and get smaller to turn a profit.... no way around that.

[speedracer]

To be fair, no one said anything about making money on AIG right away. This was not a short term investment. The theory is that over the next 10-15 years AIG will prove to be a profitable investment and obviously it is way to early to say this has been a failed investment.
Ok. It's $9bil in the tank already but ok. Outside of the theory of it you really think this isn't going to be a failed investment? I mean hell, theoretically every investment makes money. Reality disagrees.

And their real liability, the credit default swaps, haven't even hit yet.

[redline]

Wow , do you know how many retirees GM has compared to Toyota ?
Check out their legacy costs in comparison .

And I think that's where the domestic car companies struggle to compete. How many thousands of dollars do retiree costs add to the price of each vehicle?

Public perception of poor quality has hurt them a lot too. They have made leaps and bounds in quality and reliability over the last decade, but people still think of the last POS American car they bought and won't even consider another. I have two GMs in my driveway that are 6 & 9 years old, and they have both been incredibly reliable. If GM manages to survive I won't hesitate to buy another one.

I don't want to see the taxpayers bail out these companies though. If they can't make it in the market then they need to restructure or liquidate, just like so many other publicly-held corporations have done before them.

[Dr Mario Kart]

The bailout as it is currently structured is basically the worst possible solution, in a scenario where there arent any particularly great solutions.

We're stringing them along when they are going to fail anyway, only we've thrown a lot of additional bad money after good. With that money we could've bought them outright.

In the bigger picture, there are tax, trade, social and fiscal policies of the country that are the problem. We can start by protecting our domestic industry again, and bringing in national health care for starters. Secondarily, pay at the top needs to not be loaded with stock, so they can start thinking like business owners again and not shareholders. Personal income tax on the top brackets needs to go back up to where it was when we had a strong manufacturing industry. It pushes people to keep money reinvested within the company rather than taking it for salary and moving it elsewhere.

[BillyBob29]

Ok. It's $9bil in the tank already but ok. Outside of the theory of it you really think this isn't going to be a failed investment? I mean hell, theoretically every investment makes money. Reality disagrees.

And their real liability, the credit default swaps, haven't even hit yet.

Like I said, its way to early to tell but I personally think that at best we will end with a breakeven situation in 10-15 years.

[62t]

I think the automotive industry can be just as profitable if not more so.....but the car guys need to start moving forward. America is still number 1 despite Globalization and will be for some time because of what we invest in science and technology(even if its not enough we still doing more). However the car industry has been one of the industries that hasn't moved forward. The American auto industry has rested on its name, its clout and the fact that when it comes to cars for some reason Americans have this idea that we must buy American. This has meant that foreign car companies have not only passed the US ones but pretty much lapped them.

Carlos Mencia has a joke that when America and Russia went to the moon we realized we couldnt write in space with current pen technology. Russia said fuck it and used the pencil where as the US invested millions to make a pen that could write in space. Its funny and if true its sad......but this kind of thinking is what the automotive industry needs. If foreign car companies are going to invent a car that gets 70 MPG then we need to say up yours and invest enough to find a way to make it 100 mpg. If foreign car companies say cars that can hover are the wave of the future we need to say cars that can fly are the wave of the future. The American auto industry must start looking not just at what is selling but at what the competition is doing and then 1 up it.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=fact-or-fiction-nasa-spen

They used pencil, but it was $128.89 mechanical pencils. Still an insane amount of money in the 60s.

[MSI Magus]

The bailout as it is currently structured is basically the worst possible solution, in a scenario where there arent any particularly great solutions.

We're stringing them along when they are going to fail anyway, only we've thrown a lot of additional bad money after good. With that money we could've bought them outright.

In the bigger picture, there are tax, trade, social and fiscal policies of the country that are the problem. We can start by protecting our domestic industry again, and bringing in national health care for starters. Secondarily, pay at the top needs to not be loaded with stock, so they can start thinking like business owners again and not shareholders. Personal income tax on the top brackets needs to go back up to where it was when we had a strong manufacturing industry. It pushes people to keep money reinvested within the company rather than taking it for salary and moving it elsewhere.

Most people are against the goverment owning major enterprises though. Dont get me wrong I say fuck it whatever means the most jobs and services for the least tax payer dollar I am happy with. Buy out the big 3 then restructure keeping jobs and then flip the companies later putting the money back in tax payer pockets, or dont but let tax payers enjoy the boom in stocks.

[Friend of Sonic]

I think MSI brings up a good point. I have been a staunch supporter of purchasing older, used cars outright with my money. I think it's the best bang for my buck, as long as you inspect the car carefully. But if these car companies had pulled their head out of their asses and gotten out of the bed with the oil companies and made a car that had 70-100 MPG, I'd buy a new car immediately.

[mykevermin]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/13/business/13auto.html?_r=1&hp

It's dead (or just sleeping).

$700 Billion to big banks? No questions asked. Rush that dude through.

$25/34/14 Billion to the auto industry? Kill it and blame the unions, and just the unions, for causing its demise.

[BillyBob29]

I wonder how the 2-3 million people in the US, whose jobs are literally hanging by a thread, feel about their elected leaders basically doing nothing but playing petty political games with their futures.

[MSI Magus]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/13/business/13auto.html?_r=1&hp

It's dead (or just sleeping).

$700 Billion to big banks? No questions asked. Rush that dude through.

$25/34/14 Billion to the auto industry? Kill it and blame the unions, and just the unions, for causing its demise.

Not to mention that the main point of the $700 billion bail out was that without it banks would stop lending to business. If the damn loan did what it was supposed to in the first place this bail out probably wouldn't even be an issue.

Edit - The one thing I will add though is that I would be interested to see what the steep cuts that Republicans demanded of salaries were though. If they said that Auto Wokers are makign like $20-$30 an hour now and maybe they should go down to $15ish I would compltly agree and understand. Though I would still be disgusted they didnt do the same for bank workers and demmand that the execs stop getting paid 300 gazalion a year. Pretty disgusting that they are always willing to make the common man take cuts(even if they are justified)but I cant recall the last time I heard of a Republican fighting to have a rich persons pay cut.

[BillyBob29]

Not to mention that the main point of the $700 billion bail out was that without it banks would stop lending to business. If the damn loan did what it was supposed to in the first place this bail out probably wouldn't even be an issue.

Edit - The one thing I will add though is that I would be interested to see what the steep cuts that Republicans demanded of salaries were though. If they said that Auto Wokers are makign like $20-$30 an hour now and maybe they should go down to $15ish I would compltly agree and understand. Though I would still be disgusted they didnt do the same for bank workers and demmand that the execs stop getting paid 300 gazalion a year. Pretty disgusting that they are always willing to make the common man take cuts(even if they are justified)but I cant recall the last time I heard of a Republican fighting to have a rich persons pay cut.

It is my understanding that there is roughly a $30 per hour difference between the average UAW worker for the Big 3 and the average worker for the foreign automakers. I believe the goal is to cut that difference in half. However, I do believe that $30 difference is not just salary but the combined value of salary + benefits.

[KingBroly]

They're going to get it. Don't believe the bullshit that the auto industry is doomed because they didn't get their money today. They'll get it by Monday. And it'll be just as bad as the big bailout bill. The reason why this one was held up was because of the whole 'must comply to all fuel emission standards' line that was added in so late (meaning they have to comply with State Regulations as well as Federal Regulations). But they'll never tell you who put that in there, but I know who it was.

People need to open their eyes. This is all Government is now. Tape, tape, tape. This isn't a phenomena. It's standard. As far as auto workers 'ruining companies' it's not the ones who are currently working. It's the legacy costs of all those retired workers. Those costs are what's hurting these companies.

[MSI Magus]

It is my understanding that there is roughly a $30 per hour difference between the average UAW worker for the Big 3 and the average worker for the foreign automakers. I believe the goal is to cut that difference in half. However, I do believe that $30 difference is not just salary but the combined value of salary + benefits.

Ya after figuring out their benefits as well its like $70-$100 an hour they are making. I completely agree as I said in my last post that they need to cut these guys pay/benefits by as much as half(though I think this should be a processe where they loose like 20% a year vs all at once). The problem I have is as I said that Republicans are always up for stuff like this or keeping the minumn wage nice and low. But where were they when it came to cutting CEO and Exec pay when all these banks were failing? Where were they years ago when we bailed out the auto industry? Where have they been at as Wall street groups make more and more? And where were they when they were voting to raise their own damn pay and reduce gifts they can take from lobbyists? Time and time again they stand up to fight for the rich and themselves and the only time they talk needed pay cut is when it comes to the common man and poor.

[MSI Magus]

They're going to get it. Don't believe the bullshit that the auto industry is doomed because they didn't get their money today. They'll get it by Monday. And it'll be just as bad as the big bailout bill. The reason why this one was held up was because of the whole 'must comply to all fuel emission standards' line that was added in so late (meaning they have to comply with State Regulations as well as Federal Regulations). But they'll never tell you who put that in there, but I know who it was.

People need to open their eyes. This is all Government is now. Tape, tape, tape. This isn't a phenomena. It's standard. As far as auto workers 'ruining companies' it's not the ones who are currently working. It's the legacy costs of all those retired workers. Those costs are what's hurting these companies.

Yes heaven forbid they have to make more fuel effiencent cars. Lets just keep pumping out the SUVs that no one is buying and that got them into this mess and America into the oil mess we have today! Again gotta love that Republican agenda!

[mykevermin]

I'd like to see how the $70-100 per hour wages are calculated. A few pages back, someone showed how much "health insurance" is built into a US car as opposed to a foreign auto made in the US. But the latter group doesn't have a legacy of benefits to pay out to retired workers - so it will be up there shortly. UAW workers are UAW, whether Ford or Honda, right?

[MSI Magus]

I'd like to see how the $70-100 per hour wages are calculated. A few pages back, someone showed how much "health insurance" is built into a US car as opposed to a foreign auto made in the US. But the latter group doesn't have a legacy of benefits to pay out to retired workers - so it will be up there shortly. UAW workers are UAW, whether Ford or Honda, right?

My fiancee works at an assembly plant that runs itself extreamly well and has bought out a few that didnt. She said that the figures break down to something like $20-$30 an hour as far as actual income but then when you figure in benefits its often an additional $50-$75 an hour meaning it costs like $70-$100 an hour for most of those guys.

Funny thing is one of the biggest ways that her factory cuts costs is through liberal policies that have been so opposed by conservatives and business alike. They do stuff like weight loss benefits(such as paying $20 less a month for their health insurance)and paying for people to stop smoking. They also give workers a cut of profit based on performance every 3 months.

[Msut77]

I'd like to see how the $70-100 per hour wages are calculated. A few pages back, someone showed how much "health insurance" is built into a US car as opposed to a foreign auto made in the US. But the latter group doesn't have a legacy of benefits to pay out to retired workers - so it will be up there shortly. UAW workers are UAW, whether Ford or Honda, right?

Apparently they reason the number is so high is that pension and healthcare etc. being paid out for those who are already retired are thrown into the calculation, which is fucked if you ask me.

[dmaul1114]

Yeah, I'd like to see the breakdown as well. Fringe benefits are always costly, I do a lot of budgeting for the reasearch grants I've worked on and hired people on.

Ours comes to around 30% of salary for people that have health insurance, retirment etc. and 8% for hourly people without those who are just getting social security and medicare contributions. And these are for people considered state employees, and the benefits are pretty decent.

So it's seems very sketchy to have the fringe benefits in these auto plants be great than 100% of their salaries. Though if pension etc. is included as Msut says, then that makes more sense. But that shouldn't be included in a figure of the hourly calculation of current employees.

Going forward, pensions should become totally a thing of the past, with employers just having 401ks and other retirment accounts available that they contribute to while the person is working for them. When the person retires they live off of that and social security rather than staying on the company's pay roll on a pension.

[SpazX]

There was a factcheck article on the worker payments today:

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/do_auto_workers_really_make_more_than.html

[docvinh]

I'd like to see how the $70-100 per hour wages are calculated. A few pages back, someone showed how much "health insurance" is built into a US car as opposed to a foreign auto made in the US. But the latter group doesn't have a legacy of benefits to pay out to retired workers - so it will be up there shortly. UAW workers are UAW, whether Ford or Honda, right?

I don't think the Japanese companies are unionized, are they?

[mykevermin]

Thanks for that factcheck article, spazx.

Countdown to the "factcheck has a liberal bias" from the right. Not from people here, but from the right blogosphere and Fox News.

[xycury]

I don't think the Japanese companies are unionized, are they?

I don't beleive so.

[BillyBob29]

No they are not.

[VipFREAK]

They are treated a lot better than here from what I hear, so efficiency stays up. Kinda like anyone working for Google I suppose.

[homeland]

This is the "action alert" letter that was talked about

From:
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:12 AM
To:
Subject: Action Alert -- Auto Bailout

Today at noon, Senators Ensign, Shelby, Coburn and DeMint will hold a press conference in the Senate Radio/TV Gallery. They would appreciate our support through messaging and attending the press conference, if possible. The message they want us to deliver is:

1. This is the democrats first opportunity to payoff organized labor after the election. This is a precursor to card check and other items. Republicans should stand firm and take their first shot against organized labor, instead of taking their first blow from it.

2. This rush to judgment is the same thing that happened with the TARP. Members did not have an opportunity to read or digest the legislation and therefore could not understand the consequences of it. We should not rush to pass this because Detroit says the sky is falling.


The sooner you can have press releases and documents like this in the hands of members and the press, the better. Please contact me if you need additional information. Again, the hardest thing for the democrats to do is get 60 votes. If we can hold the Republicans, we can beat this.





So, bail out wall street $700+ billion. Have a chance to screw over organized labor priceless.

[dopa345]

Lots of Republicans were against the financial bailout as well.

I say have each of the "Big 3" come up with a detailed plan justifying the money and it will be used to turn around their businesses and keep them competitive (not simply forestalling the inevitable). Bail out the two with the better, more feasible plans and let the other one file bankruptcy. Nothing says that a bailout has to be an all or nothing affair.

[JolietJake]

I'm pretty sure that Niassan is not unionized, i used to know someone who worked for a plant here and i think he said they weren't.

I remember reading an article years ago about Japanese auto plant efficiency. The part i remember the most was about how workers in Japanese plants were trained to basically do any job in the plant, instead of just the one they're assigned to. This made it possible for the employees to be moved around in jobs and kept them from getting too bored doing the same thing for years. It also helped keep efficiency up and also made it possible for any employee to fill in for any other employee, since they were all trained to do any job.

The Japanese did this long before any American plant.

[vlv723]

I guess Speedy's sig sums it all up:

http://buffalobeast.com/133/bigthree.jpg

[thrustbucket]

Yes. Yes it does.

[Richlough]

I have a Freestar .

[VipFREAK]

lmao

[speedracer]

Saw this in WaPo today, been chewing on this line and am curious what others think.

Even if the Big Three deserve to die, they shouldn't die now. Economic theory notwithstanding, it would be insanity to throw hundreds of thousands of auto company employees, and maybe a few million others in the supply and sales chains, out of work -- leaving them and their families at the mercy of an economy that has no replacement jobs for them. Public funds would end up supporting these people anyway, except that we would have lost our domestic auto industry -- which, despite its many failings, is the only domestic auto industry we've got.

[rickonker]

I guess Speedy's sig sums it all up:

http://buffalobeast.com/133/bigthree.jpg
This is great.

[rickonker]

Saw this in WaPo today, been chewing on this line and am curious what others think.

Yes, unfortunately taxpayer money is going to be wasted either way, but that doesn't mean the Big Three should be bailed out. What is the actual reason for wanting a domestic auto industry? Whatever it is, it doesn't justify theft on a grand scale.

[Dr Mario Kart]

The only legitimate economy is one based on manufacturing. Its the most effective way to create wealth (which is different from just making money).

A service based economy is fictional.

[rickonker]

The only legitimate economy is one based on manufacturing. Its the most effective way to create wealth (which is different from just making money).

A service based economy is fictional.

Creating wealth is certainly different from just making money; you're preaching to the choir there. But then I never said nobody should manufacture anything.

[elprincipe]

The only legitimate economy is one based on manufacturing. Its the most effective way to create wealth (which is different from just making money).

A service based economy is fictional.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/forbes_nabe_usmanufacturing_3-26-042.pdf

Check out the #6 chart. We've had dramatic increases in manufacturing output in this country, even while employment in manufacturing has fallen. This is because of automation and factories becoming much more productive. Are you referring to an economy based on manufacturing output or manufacturing employment?

[KingBroly]

I get the feeling that people who want the auto bailout are the same people who wanted the Wall Street bailout. It will only be after the fact that they'll say 'we didn't want THIS'. And the Government will try to say it's the best thing ever.

[rickonker]

I get the feeling that people who want the auto bailout are the same people who wanted the Wall Street bailout. It will only be after the fact that they'll say 'we didn't want THIS'. And the Government will try to say it's the best thing ever.
I think you're right in a lot of cases, but there are a lot of people who want the auto bailout and say, "Well we bailed out Wall Street, so why not people who actually make something?"

Of course both bailouts are stupid so that's not much of an argument.

[KingBroly]

But they're not bailing out the workers here, they're bailing out the corporation, who will in turn, take that money, and sit on it. Just like the companies did with the Wall Street bailout.

Another bad thing about the bailout is that NO ONE is talking about, or at least a cause for it happening, is the dollar slide. All this extra money printing isn't exactly good for it.

[rickonker]

But they're not bailing out the workers here, they're bailing out the corporation, who will in turn, take that money, and sit on it. Just like the companies did with the Wall Street bailout.

Another bad thing about the bailout is that NO ONE is talking about, or at least a cause for it happening, is the dollar slide. All this extra money printing isn't exactly good for it.
Preaching to the choir here. I'd be against the bailout even if they used it to make better cars.

[VipFREAK]

The funny thing about that is the "better" cars they would make if the bailout happened and they did use the money for it is that by the time they came out all the other imports would have made their 2nd gen versions of those "better" cars. lol

[MSI Magus]

Preaching to the choir here. I'd be against the bailout even if they used it to make better cars.

What about the fact that the 200-300 million people are going to draw $100s of billions more from the government and government programs such as food stamps and unemployment then the bail out would cost us in the first place.

[MSI Magus]

Well its official 17.4 billion to Automotives.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/aaclcgsegmjw

[KingBroly]

So who's honestly and genuinely shocked by this?

I'm not

[VioletArrows]

If I actually had any money to be taken away and given to these people, I might actually be angry.

[MSI Magus]

The crazy thing is that my fiancee said her boss was talking about even with the bail out GM is talking about closing its factories down for 3-4 months. If they close down for that long it means shutting down factories like her that produce for them for 6 months probaly. So even with the bail out its looking like they are going to pull down millions of jobs anyways since many of those factories wont last half a year without bussiness and you can damn well bet all those bars/restaurants and food wagons wont.

[KingBroly]

The Government will just give them another bailout then. You should already know this, and it'll be bigger next time.

These companies need to get rid of those legacy costs. They're the biggest factor in them not being competitive anymore with their car pricing.

[MSI Magus]

The Government will just give them another bailout then. You should already know this, and it'll be bigger next time.

These companies need to get rid of those legacy costs. They're the biggest factor in them not being competitive anymore with their car pricing.

I am not talking about the car companies I am talking about the companies that produce for said car companies. My fiancees plant is extremely lean, hell they got in trouble recently with the company that owns them for not having ENOUGH employees in certain departments.

[Snake2715]

Well its official 17.4 billion to Automotives.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/aaclcgsegmjw

Well it looks like the Freestar on the last page needs to come down since Ford is the strongest of the three here.

I absolutely cannot stand GM.

[GuilewasNK]

They should have made it interesting. They should have said only two of the big three will be bailed out and the two depends on who has the best plan for restructuring going forward.

[BillyBob29]

Of course they got the loan, it was always painfully obvious they were going to. All this does is push off the real decision about the future of the US auto industry until March. IMO, this will end with a pre-packaged bankruptcy that will result in a Chrysler and GM merger because there is nothing better than taking one crappy company and merging it with an even crappier company.;)

[Snake2715]

They should have made it interesting. They should have said only two of the big three will be bailed out and the two depends on who has the best plan for restructuring going forward.


yeah that would have been an idea for sure.

[KingBroly]

Oh, and by the way guys, in Congress's ever-lasting love and care for the country during these hard times, they raised their pay by $4,700 a year. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[VipFREAK]

The crazy thing is that my fiancee said her boss was talking about even with the bail out GM is talking about closing its factories down for 3-4 months. If they close down for that long it means shutting down factories like her that produce for them for 6 months probaly. So even with the bail out its looking like they are going to pull down millions of jobs anyways since many of those factories wont last half a year without bussiness and you can damn well bet all those bars/restaurants and food wagons wont.

Well, you do realize the magnitude of how bad they have fucked up. It was all over the news. I mean, the "bailout" would just be a drop in the bucket for them. They could still go under and were talking go under in say less than 6mo. kinda time period.

[MSI Magus]

Well, you do realize the magnitude of how bad they have fucked up. It was all over the news. I mean, the "bailout" would just be a drop in the bucket for them. They could still go under and were talking go under in say less than 6mo. kinda time period.

Duh

[VipFREAK]

What baffles me is how much they got in debt... I mean, it's on the same level of how the fuck does someone reach 400lbs. and their excuse is they are depressed. Someone would fucking notice wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy before 400... Or how the fuck does someone flip a car?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cul_t2mJL7w

[thrustbucket]

This is just the first step to nationalizing, I'm afraid. Let's see what we nationalize next.

We have the right administration coming just for that task.

[BillyBob29]

What baffles me is how much they got in debt... I mean, it's on the same level of how the fuck does someone reach 400lbs. and their excuse is they are depressed. Someone would fucking notice wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy before 400... Or how the fuck does someone flip a car?



Umm....people have been warning of the decline of the US auto industry for decades and there have been dozens of attempts to turn things around. GM, Ford and Chyrsler have gone through dozens of "turnaround" plans, they just haven't worked because they have all failed to change the fundamental problems of the industry.

[KingBroly]

Ford refuses short-term loan: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=081219150605.tto9ush5&show_article=1

[Snake2715]

Ford refuses short-term loan: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=081219150605.tto9ush5&show_article=1


About F'n time.

This is good news for them... watch people that are buying flock to their cars, if they can stay afloat.

[willardhaven]

This is just the first step to nationalizing, I'm afraid. Let's see what we nationalize next.

We have the right administration coming just for that task.


You are fixating on the wrong problem. The fair weather socialism that took place prior to the current crisis is what got the U.S. to where it is.

Aside from hick values vs. iPod people values, there are no differences between Republicans and Democrats.

The only real difference between Obama and McCain is that Obama will whine about big corporations before taking it in the rear from them.

On topic: these companies suck at making cars, let them crash now instead of chaining the citizens of the United States to them beforehand.

I don't want to hear some evening news sob story about the factory workers. It sucks for them and I wish they didn't work for such horrible companies, but sometimes jobs end.

[dmaul1114]

I don't want to hear some evening news sob story about the factory workers. It sucks for them and I wish they didn't work for such horrible companies, but sometimes jobs end.

It does suck for them, no doubt. But at the same time they choose to take an unskilled job where they joined a company and learned how to perform one task.

It just shows the importance of making yourself needed by having marketable skills--be it getting an education in a high demand field or learning a skilled trade that's in high demand.

If you do unskilled labor, or do one specific task in a factor etc. you run a high risk of getting fucked if the company goes under. You lose your job and you aren't competitive for other jobs as you have no marketable skills.

[MSI Magus]

Again I keep hearing boo hoo automotive workers sorry you have to lose your job but we shouldnt have to put out money.....yet no one thinking about all the money we will lose if they do lose their jobs. $18 billion to keep them afloat isnt half as bad as what it will cost to give all those workers unemployment, medicare and food stamps.

[willardhaven]

Again I keep hearing boo hoo automotive workers sorry you have to lose your job but we shouldnt have to put out money.....yet no one thinking about all the money we will lose if they do lose their jobs. $18 billion to keep them afloat isnt half as bad as what it will cost to give all those workers unemployment, medicare and food stamps.


You raise a good point, but they'll be spending all they get so it's not like the U.S. will totally lose the money.

Unemployment is kind of crazy now, a friend of mine got fired years ago and he keeps getting renewed even though he's a dependent.

Plus, we're already paying into the social programs, just as these workers have. So it's not the same type of expense.

[thrustbucket]

You are fixating on the wrong problem. The fair weather socialism that took place prior to the current crisis is what got the U.S. to where it is.

Aside from hick values vs. iPod people values, there are no differences between Republicans and Democrats.

The only real difference between Obama and McCain is that Obama will whine about big corporations before taking it in the rear from them.


Oh I agree with you. I am certainly not saying McCain would have been better in this regard.

And I am on record as saying Bush is the most socialist president we have likely ever had (as far as increasing government power, at least since Wilson), now it's just a wait-and-see concerning Obama continuing the trend.

[MSI Magus]

You raise a good point, but they'll be spending all they get so it's not like the U.S. will totally lose the money.

Unemployment is kind of crazy now, a friend of mine got fired years ago and he keeps getting renewed even though he's a dependent.

Plus, we're already paying into the social programs, just as these workers have. So it's not the same type of expense.

Everything I have read has suggested that the cost of unemployment and other services will exceed $200 billion within a few months if the bail out fails. Its hardly close, and even if much of it gets spent on stuff like food most of it doesnt go back to the goverment or even the people but companies....and guess what many of these companies aint American anymore. That means this money largly will go to China.

[willardhaven]

Yeah now that I think about it, the government will just siphon the money from education and research. While they pay unemployed citizens and for a failed "war on terror" (or "enlightened" terrorism as I see it).

Yet people are still churning out babies while countless people are starving around the world. I would love to hear a religious person's take on the world at large.

[Dr Mario Kart]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/forbes_nabe_usmanufacturing_3-26-042.pdf

Check out the #6 chart. We've had dramatic increases in manufacturing output in this country, even while employment in manufacturing has fallen. This is because of automation and factories becoming much more productive. Are you referring to an economy based on manufacturing output or manufacturing employment?
Not output. Employment and wages. Wages should scale somewhat with worker productivity, but they arent anymore. Productivity is way up but wages are not. Its part of the transfer of wealth from the bottom to the top that has been going on over the last 30 years in particular.

[dmaul1114]

Everything I have read has suggested that the cost of unemployment and other services will exceed $200 billion within a few months if the bail out fails. Its hardly close, and even if much of it gets spent on stuff like food most of it doesnt go back to the goverment or even the people but companies....and guess what many of these companies aint American anymore. That means this money largly will go to China.

I think what many people are worried about is that even with a loan/bail out there still seems to be a solid chance at least one or two of the companies will still fail and where out the bail out funds and still stuck paying unemployment to a bunch of unskilled laborers.

I don't think the bailouts going to get them to stop making crappy cars that people will buy over Toyotas, Hondas, Mazdas, Subarus, etc. overnight.

[thrustbucket]

Yet people are still churning out babies while countless people are starving around the world. I would love to hear a religious person's take on the world at large.

I am sure you'll disagree, but I believe the population of the world is mostly irrelevant to suffering.

There will always roughly be the same percentage suffering, starving, and in poverty. It's required for the type of economic and social systems in place for most of the world.

The problem isn't population, it's the control mechanisms in place for the population.

[MSI Magus]

I think what many people are worried about is that even with a loan/bail out there still seems to be a solid chance at least one or two of the companies will still fail and where out the bail out funds and still stuck paying unemployment to a bunch of unskilled laborers.

I don't think the bailouts going to get them to stop making crappy cars that people will buy over Toyotas, Hondas, Mazdas, Subarus, etc. overnight.

If a bail out was done properly though they would stop making crappy cars and compete. Republicans balk at higher fuel standards and green tech being mandatory but if the industry would have adopted these standards a few years ago dont you think that cars might have sold a lot better these last 2 or 3 years? Honestly a bail out doesnt HAVE to be a bad thing....it will end up being a bad thing but it doesnt have to be.

[dmaul1114]

It could be a good thing if they given them money with the stipulation that so much of it has to be used to raise MPG, work on plug in hybrids, alternative fuels (Honda has a hydrogen car coming out soon) etc.

But like you said, the republicans are too stupid and stubborn to put a bill like that through.

[willardhaven]

I am sure you'll disagree, but I believe the population of the world is mostly irrelevant to suffering.

There will always roughly be the same percentage suffering, starving, and in poverty. It's required for the type of economic and social systems in place for most of the world.

The problem isn't population, it's the control mechanisms in place for the population.

I don't completely disagree since I was just kind of ranting, shooting from the hip there.

I completely disagree with accepting the economic and social status quo.

I don't want to derail the topic though, so forget that I brought it up.

Anyway, government bailouts are not an answer, they just put off the inevitable. DMK points out one of the major problems of the U.S. and the world at large: disproportionate earnings.

We need some kind of revolution...

[rickonker]

What about the fact that the 200-300 million people are going to draw $100s of billions more from the government and government programs such as food stamps and unemployment then the bail out would cost us in the first place.

I'm against that too and I'm sick of settling for the lesser of two evils.

[MSI Magus]

I'm against that too and I'm sick of settling for the lesser of two evils.

Too bad. Thats all you can do is settle for the lesser of 2 evils less you want to create a third lesser evil or are willing to do as Williard is suggesting and tear the system to pieces(which I am all up for but the US population as a whole is not yet).

[dmaul1114]

http://www.newsweek.com/id/174337

Interesting read from the latest Newseek talking about all the foreign car plants in the south and how they're doing better etc.

[rickonker]

Too bad. Thats all you can do is settle for the lesser of 2 evils less you want to create a third lesser evil or are willing to do as Williard is suggesting and tear the system to pieces(which I am all up for but the US population as a whole is not yet).

It's simple for me; I oppose both evil options. If you're suggesting I should advocate for the auto bailout to try to avoid another kind of bailout, I'd say that's a waste of time. I doubt willard and I would agree on the actual solution though.

[thrustbucket]

I think it's clear that the bailout is the worse of the two evils. Because you are rewarding, thus essentially planning for, failure and future failure.

Lots of people on unemployment sure will suck. But I have more faith in those people to find and/or create something good and useful and productive with their time than I do 3 corporate giants that have proven to be incompetent.

[willardhaven]

Lots of people on unemployment sure will suck. But I have more faith in those people to find and/or create something good and useful and productive with their time than I do 3 corporate giants that have proven to be incompetent.

Logic and basic human consideration have no place in a corporate government silly.

But yeah, I agree.

[KingBroly]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a423KVNUfxXY&refer=worldwide

Now Canada's giving GM and Chrysler money.

[BigT]

I am not against giving GM some help to prop them up, but they should be forced to renegotiate all union contracts and cancel or vastly reduce their programs where they pay union employees not to work. They should get rid of pensions, and get rid of health insurance for their retirees, etc... (I mean, who else, other than gov't employees gets such perks)... if they do these things it may be actually economically feasible for them to build smaller cars with less markup.

[thrustbucket]

I'd like to see a list of industries that are known to have those types of perks and stay a viable business.

[mykevermin]

I am not against giving GM some help to prop them up, but they should be forced to renegotiate all union contracts and cancel or vastly reduce their programs where they pay union employees not to work. They should get rid of pensions, and get rid of health insurance for their retirees, etc... (I mean, who else, other than gov't employees gets such perks)... if they do these things it may be actually economically feasible for them to build smaller cars with less markup.

Eliminating pensions ends up harming people who've done nothing wrong, nor contributed to the currently poor state of the auto industry.

It's akin to advocating that rape victims get chastity belts so they won't get raped again.

[elprincipe]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/12/bush_stretches_executive_power.html