November 2008: 533,000 cut jobs; Unemployment: 6.7%

[mykevermin]

December 6, 2008
Jobless Rate Rises to 6.7% as 533,000 Jobs Are Lost
By LOUIS UCHITELLE

With the economy deteriorating rapidly, the nation’s employers shed 533,000 jobs in November, the 11th consecutive monthly decline, the government reported Friday morning, and the unemployment rate rose to 6.7 percent.

The decline, the largest one-month loss since December 1974, was fresh evidence that the economic contraction accelerated in November, promising to make the current recession, already 12 months old, the longest since the Great Depression. The previous record was 16 months, in the severe recessions of the mid-1970s and early 1980s.

“We have recorded the largest decline in consumer confidence in our history,” said Richard T. Curtin, director of the Reuters/University of Michigan Survey of Consumers, which started its polling in the 1950s. “It is being driven down by a host of factors: falling home and stock prices, fewer work hours, smaller bonuses, less overtime and disappearing jobs.”

The job losses far exceeded the 350,000 figure that was the consensus expectation of economists.

Over all, the job losses since January now total more than 1.9 million, with most coming in the last three months as consumers and businesses cut back sharply in response to the worsening credit crisis.

“Business shut down in November,” said Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody’s Economy.com. “Businesses are in survival mode and are slashing jobs and investment to conserve cash. Unless credit starts flowing again soon, big job losses will continue well into next year.”

The report on Friday by the Bureau of Labor Statistics included sharp upward revisions in job-loss figures for October (to 320,000 from the previously reported 240,000) and for September (to 403,000 from 284,000).

A mass departure from the labor force helped to hold down the unemployment rate in November, which was up only two-tenths of a percentage point from October’s 6.5 percent.

More than 420,000 men and women who had been working or seeking work in October, left the labor force in November. Most presumably gave up looking for a job, the bureau’s report suggests. If they had continued that search, the unemployment rate in November would have been closer to 7 percent.

In addition, 70 percent of the job loss was in the service sector, particularly in retailing, temporary work and hotel and restaurant employment. Indeed, the only sectors adding jobs in November were health care and education.

“The service sector had been holding up relatively well into this downturn, but now the service sector is just imploding,” said Michael T. Darda, chief economist at the research firm MKM Partners. “As goes the service sector, so goes the U.S. economy."

The employment report increased the likelihood that Congress, with the support of President-elect Barack Obama, will enact a stimulus package by late January that could exceed $500 billion over two years.

Mr. Obama issued a statement on Friday morning that called the employment report “a dramatic reflection of the growing economic crisis we face,” saying it was further evidence that “we need an economic recovery plan that will save or create at least 2.5 million more jobs over two years while we act decisively to maintain the flows of credit on which so many American families and American businesses depend.”

Under the stimulus plan, more than half the money would probably be channeled into public infrastructure spending. Many economists consider such investments an effective way to counteract, through federally financed employment, the layoffs and hiring freezes spreading through the private sector.

“Basically $100 billion of public investment in such things as roads, bridges and levees would generate two million jobs,” Robert N. Pollin, an economist at the University of Massachusetts, said. “That would offset the two million jobs that we are now on track to lose by early next year.”

The manufacturing sector has been particularly hard hit, losing more than half a million jobs this year. That is nearly half the 1.2 million jobs lost since employment peaked in December and, in January, began its uninterrupted decline. The cutbacks seem likely to accelerate as the three Detroit automakers close more factories and shrink payrolls even more as they try to qualify for the federal loans they asked Congress this week to approve.

While manufacturing has led the way, the job cuts are rising in nearly every sector of the economy. “My sense is there is just a collapse in demand,” said Marc Levinson, research director for the union Unite Here, whose 450,000 members are spread across apparel manufacturing, hotels, casinos, industrial laundries, airport concessions and restaurants. “Our members are being laid off big time,” Mr. Levinson said.

The latest jobs report came during a week of compelling evidence that the American economy is falling precipitously. On Monday, the National Bureau of Economic Research ruled that a recession — the 12th since the Depression — had begun last December, even earlier than many people had thought.

That news was followed by fresh reports of cutbacks or declines in construction spending, home sales, consumer spending, business investment and exports. And companies in every industry sector announced layoffs this week, including AT&T, the telecommunications company, with 12,000 job cuts; DuPont, the chemical company, 2,500; and Viacom, the media company, 850.

Even retail sales in the Christmas season were off sharply. The International Council of Shopping Centers on Thursday described November sales at stores open at least a year as the weakest in more than 30 years.

With all this in mind, and particularly the shrinking employment rolls, economists are estimating that the gross domestic product is contracting at an annual rate of 4 percent or more in the fourth quarter, after a decline of 0.3 percent in the third quarter.

“Our G.D.P. forecast for 2009 is now minus 1.8 percent, rather than minus 1 percent,” HIS Global Insight, a forecasting and data gathering service, informed its clients in an e-mail message this week, explaining that all the latest bad news left it no choice but to issue a sharp downward revision.

“We see the unemployment rate at 8.6 percent by the end of 2009,” Global Insight said.

John E. Silvia, chief economist at Wachovia, said the new unemployment data suggested that economic growth is falling at a rate of 5 percent in the fourth quarter. “There’s no quick fix here," he said. “There’s no quick rebound.”

Jack Healy contributed reporting.

Merry Christmas!

[SpazX]

I blame blacks and gays.

[gareman]

I blame blacks and gays.
Don't forget about the Mexicans!;)

[MSI Magus]

Don't forget about the Mexicans!;)

Screw it our Economy is back in the 30s anyways so lets blame Jews and communists too!

[speedracer]

Those numbers are retarded big.

Every day I wonder what the numbers would have to get to before we have that "oh snap" moment and realize we're all fucked. Maybe it'll be when Detroit eats it, the CDS's come due on them, and the financial system and manufacturing base of the north midwest crash in the same week.

That'll be the week I buy seeds and canned food for the long winter ahead.

[Dead of Knight]

Ruh roh.

Great Depression Part 2: Electric Boogaloo.

[MSI Magus]

Those numbers are retarded big.

Every day I wonder what the numbers would have to get to before we have that "oh snap" moment and realize we're all fucked. Maybe it'll be when Detroit eats it, the CDS's come due on them, and the financial system and manufacturing base of the north midwest crash in the same week.

That'll be the week I buy seeds and canned food for the long winter ahead.

My fiancee thinks I am crazy because I have been buying extra canned goods and Ramen Noodles. I mean Christ their like $0.18 and $0.60 and I am just buying a few extra here and there on the off chance that jokes like the ones you and Dead just made become reality.

Also was looked at as crazy over Thanksgiving when people were talking about what they would do if they won the lottery. I said good economy or bad I would do the same thing as any other time invest some, splurge by buying a bunch of games and my only other splurge would be to build a fully stocked bomb shelter. Thats where the crazy comes in and I just don't understand why people think its crazy. I am not saying I think we are going to hit a horrid depression, nor that terrorists will hit the US with a biological weapon, or that bird flu will happen. Just that on the off(but growing) chance that something like that does happen I think it would be nice to have a bomb shelter that's fully stocked.

[mykevermin]

Every day I wonder what the numbers would have to get to before we have that "oh snap" moment and realize we're all fucked. Maybe it'll be when Detroit eats it, the CDS's come due on them, and the financial system and manufacturing base of the north midwest crash in the same week.

We don't "feel" numbers. That breaks my heart as a statistician (;); my dissertation research used a scale of "concentrated disadvantage" (layman's terms: how fucked up your neighborhood is ecomically). But do people "feel" 2.5 standard deviations below the mean of concentrated disadvantage? Nope. Neither do I. So when I went to the major city in the county I was studying in (to ref roller derby, of course), I was standing at a window high in the building, looking out at buildings falling apart, at buildings so fucked up nobody even bothered to board up the windows, at cars parked in a chain-link fence w/ razor-wire on top, and none on the side streets. I saw a block with condemned housing except for a typical inner-city tiny convenience store. I saw people drive out of their way to look for safe parking so their car wouldn't get broken into when we went to the bar afterwards. That's what people know, not a number or measure.

And a car was broken into anyway.

My fiancee thinks I am crazy because I have been buying extra canned goods and Ramen Noodles. I mean Christ their like $0.18 and $0.60 and I am just buying a few extra here and there on the off chance that jokes like the ones you and Dead just made become reality

THIS is what the numbers mean. This is what people will feel. They don't feel 533,000 jobs lost, but when their weekly grocery budget buys far less than it did before (a gallon of milk is $3.fucking20 in Athens, OH right now), when they go to the store and find that there's no sugar on the shelves - THAT is when we'll feel it, and how we'll feel it. And it's coming.

[Dead of Knight]

I mean Christ their like $0.18 and $0.60 and I am just buying a few extra here and there on the off chance that jokes like the ones you and Dead just made become reality.

Unfortunately, I wasn't really joking.

[MSI Magus]

Man do you 2 really think we are heading towards another great depression? I will be suprised if things get that bad. I can see something like 15% unemployment and stagflation.....but I dont see people waiting in line to buy bread. The last depression didnt have kids running around buying the luxory toys of the time just a month or two before it set in like we see now.

[mykevermin]

Here's a more in-depth analysis of the bleak picture from the NYT:

According to the Labor Department, the number of unemployed workers rose by 251,000 in November. But the number of people who were outside of the labor force — that is, neither working nor looking for work — rose by much more: 637,000. These people aren’t counted as unemployed in the government’s statistics, because they are not looking for work. Many of them, presumably, have stopped looking for work because they didn’t think they could find a good job.

If you take a broader measure — one that tries to account for them — you see a darker picture of the labor market. The share of all men ages 16 and over who are working is now at its lowest level since the government began keeping statistics in the 1940s. The share of women with jobs has fallen almost two percentage points from the peak it reached in 2000; at no other point in the past 50 years has the share of employed women has fallen so much from its peak.

Even among those who still have jobs — who, of course, make up a huge majority of the population — the news wasn’t good. The number of people working a part-time job because they couldn’t find a full-time job rose by 621,000 last month. These people count as employed, but obviously many of them are struggling.

"Unemployment" is always a tricky measure, since it accounts for people *looking for work* but not employed. So if you're so down on the way things are that you're not looking for work at all, you're not counted among the unemployed. And many people are really down in the shit right now, so the figures above (the massive increase in part-time jobs, the massive increase in the unemployed, and the massive increase in people outside the labor force) really paint a picture of just how fucked we are.

I do predict bread lines, honestly.

[MSI Magus]

Here's a more in-depth analysis of the bleak picture from the NYT:



"Unemployment" is always a tricky measure, since it accounts for people *looking for work* but not employed. So if you're so down on the way things are that you're not looking for work at all, you're not counted among the unemployed. And many people are really down in the shit right now, so the figures above (the massive increase in part-time jobs, the massive increase in the unemployed, and the massive increase in people outside the labor force) really paint a picture of just how fucked we are.

I do predict bread lines, honestly.

If you predict bread lines then why arnt you stock piling food? Why haven't you reacted this way for some time? Also heres a question, how many people do you know that have been without work for some time and probably just didn't want to work....yet now blame the bad economy for not being able to find work? I know a lot of men in the 18-30 range that simply do not WANT to work and are using the economy as an excuse. My brother and a lot of his friends are that way as is my fiancees sisters boyfriend. They all have been without work for 2 or 3 years and half assed looking for a job(read: done just enough to make it seem like they are looking when they are not)but now claim oooo I cant find work because of the economy.

The baby boomers will also work in our favor for turning this around. Many will hold off on retiring now, but many will still retire which will create some jobs over the next few years.

[mykevermin]

Also heres a question, how many people do you know that have been without work for some time and probably just didn't want to work....yet now blame the bad economy for not being able to find work? I know a lot of men in the 18-30 range that simply do not WANT to work and are using the economy as an excuse.

I know some, but not many. The thing is, you can look at trendlines in the "out of the workforce" numbers to see how they change over time; that would balance out people who are 'lazy' on one hand from those who are just so jaded about the economy that they're no longer looking for work on another.

Yay statistics!

[MSI Magus]

I know some, but not many. The thing is, you can look at trendlines in the "out of the workforce" numbers to see how they change over time; that would balance out people who are 'lazy' on one hand from those who are just so jaded about the economy that they're no longer looking for work on another.

Yay statistics!

Well lets hope for all our sakes your wrong. I dont think this generation will do well in a depression and living off bread lines. My guess is crime will run rampant and I could see the goverment of the US, UK, France, Canada and many others being overthrown.

[mykevermin]

That will all happen, 'cept for the government overthrow part. Maybe in Italy, where it's a time-honored tradition. But not here.

[MSI Magus]

You have several generations of very spoiled people. The older ones are used to their SUVs, expensive coffes and dinners out while the younger ones are used to new video games and HDTVs all the time. Take that away from them then tell them they have to wait in line for bread.........ya it aint going to be pretty.

[thrustbucket]

And out of this will be born a cry for help from the downtrodden masses for the government to come to the rescue as the pain and grief culminate. This all echoes of something before in the history books. Could it be that the dawn of the new Socialist USA is coming.

Four years ago I'd have said it was lunacy, but having just had the most socialist administration since Woodrow Willson (and that's from so-called CONSERVATIVES, mind you), with no end in sight, it seems a forgone conclusion.

[mykevermin]

You have several generations of very spoiled people. The older ones are used to their SUVs, expensive coffes and dinners out while the younger ones are used to new video games and HDTVs all the time. Take that away from them then tell them they have to wait in line for bread.........ya it aint going to be pretty.

We're too lazy to overthrow the government. That's what I'm sayin'.

[GuilewasNK]

My fiancee thinks I am crazy because I have been buying extra canned goods and Ramen Noodles. I mean Christ their like $0.18 and $0.60 and I am just buying a few extra here and there on the off chance that jokes like the ones you and Dead just made become reality.


You know, Glenn Beck was mentioning stockpiling food on his radio show. Regardless of anyones political leanings, I think it's a good idea.

Man do you 2 really think we are heading towards another great depression? I will be suprised if things get that bad. I can see something like 15% unemployment and stagflation.....but I dont see people waiting in line to buy bread. The last depression didnt have kids running around buying the luxory toys of the time just a month or two before it set in like we see now.

People were surprised when gas was $4.00 a few months ago and are suprised it's under $2.00 now. They were also surprised at the market woes and unemployment. Instead of being surprised we need to be prepared for the worst. Then if it isn't so bad it's no big loss. It's kind of like the person who proudly proclaims, "I never lock my door!", then someone steals from them and they seem shocked.

[dmaul1114]

I don't see much need to stockpile food since my job is secure through August and my new job to start then is secure as well. Plus not much point in stockpiling shit when I'll be moving in the summer anyway.

But it probably is a good idea for people who work in less secure jobs.

[GuilewasNK]

I don't see much need to stockpile food since my job is secure through August and my new job to start then is secure as well. Plus not much point in stockpiling shit when I'll be moving in the summer anyway.

But it probably is a good idea for people who work in less secure jobs.


What kind of job do you have?

[dmaul1114]

What kind of job do you have?

Currently working on a research grant that's budgeted through August (may even get it extended as we have a few thousand we budgeted and didn't spend) while finishing my Ph D.

Then moving to a tenure-track assistant professor position that I recently accepted. So that's secure up to the tenure review in year 6, and secure there after as long as you get tenure.

[GuilewasNK]

Currently working on a research grant that's budgeted through August (may even get it extended as we have a few thousand we budgeted and didn't spend) while finishing my Ph D.

Then moving to a tenure-track assistant professor position that I recently accepted. So that's secure up to the tenure review in year 6, and secure there after as long as you get tenure.


Yeah, the education field isn't going away barring WWIII. I'm a college bookstore manager so my job should be fairly recession proof, but I certainly don't want to do this for too much longer unless I absolutely have to.

[mykevermin]

^ You got a good thing goin' dmaul, but there was a time, last about 40 years ago, where academic institutions were bad enough that tenure-line faculty were laid off. Not in large numbers, mind, and not nationwide, but (1) it is possible, and (2) this is already the worst economic crisis we've dealt with since the great depression, and we're quite uncertain of where the "bottom" is.

Is it likely things will go sour for you? Not at all. Is it possible? Yeah, kinda. My colleagues in their first year on their tenure lines here are scared to death. I wouldn't be, but I'd totally be concerned about it. Esp. public institutions; Ohio's neck deep in shit as it is.

[thrustbucket]

I don't see much need to stockpile food since my job is secure through August and my new job to start then is secure as well. Plus not much point in stockpiling shit when I'll be moving in the summer anyway.

But it probably is a good idea for people who work in less secure jobs.

I never really considered stockpiling food having much, if anything, to do with preparing for unemployment. The government gives more than enough food stamp type stuff to keep people from starving (hopefully).

The reason to stockpile food, especially with an economy and dollar on a trampoline, is because food prices could skyrocket. Even minus the economy, all it takes is a conflict or natural disaster in asia or south america and prices of a lot of food will skyrocket. After this year nobody should balk at the idea of a 'perfect storm' of conditions to create breadlines and cut supply.

Regardless, there are plenty of reasons to stockpile food that have nothing to do with employment.

[dmaul1114]

I suppose. I've just never been one of those paranoid/pessimistic people that worry about worst case scenario stuff to the point I'd stock pile food etc. I just make sure to have a nice savings set aside in case shit happens. Thus far that's been pretty modest since I've never made a ton of money, but I'm pretty frugal and always have a bit saved up and will have more when I get done with my degree and start making real money.

And Myke, I'm pretty much with you there. I worry about it a bit, but not much since I have much less to worry about in academia than most other fields. No job is ever 100% secure.

[Dead of Knight]

And out of this will be born a cry for help from the downtrodden masses for the government to come to the rescue as the pain and grief culminate. This all echoes of something before in the history books. Could it be that the dawn of the new Socialist USA is coming.


http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9947/hitlernw2.jpg
Approves.

[jaykrue]

I suppose. I've just never been one of those paranoid/pessimistic people that worry about worst case scenario stuff to the point I'd stock pile food etc. I just make sure to have a nice savings set aside in case shit happens. Thus far that's been pretty modest since I've never made a ton of money, but I'm pretty frugal and always have a bit saved up and will have more when I get done with my degree and start making real money.

But you've got to remember one thing - money is only as good as the institution that backs it. If, for some reason, the global trust of the dollar is lost (which doesn't seem ridiculously impossible in the current economy), those savings you've set aside will be worth less than the paper its printed on.

There's the story (or urban legend, dunno if it's been verified) in the early 1920s of the German mark equal to one trillionth of a dollar (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheights/shared/minitext/ess_germanhyperinflation.html). Yeah, that's not a typo. One trillionth. It was so bad that a wheelbarrow full of money couldn't buy a loaf of bread and thieves would rather steal the wheelbarrow and dump the paper since they could sell the wheelbarrow's parts and make more money than the supposed total value of the pile of paper money they left behind!

With the move to digital banking and all you're moving around are 1s and 0s, where's your money's secured value? There isn't. If you check out that link above, it's scarily close to what's happening around the world now where governments are simply printing money but have no backing for it. History repeats itself if true.

I'm just glad I'm an employer w/ a small staff so I don't have the stress most people have. I don't envy anyone who got laid off and hope they'll get through this shithole of an economy.

[MSI Magus]

But you've got to remember one thing - money is only as good as the institution that backs it. If, for some reason, the global trust of the dollar is lost (which doesn't seem ridiculously impossible in the current economy), those savings you've set aside will be worth less than the paper its printed on.

There's the story (or urban legend, dunno if it's been verified) in the early 1920s of the German mark equal to one trillionth of a dollar (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheights/shared/minitext/ess_germanhyperinflation.html). Yeah, that's not a typo. One trillionth. It was so bad that a wheelbarrow full of money couldn't buy a loaf of bread and thieves would rather steal the wheelbarrow and dump the paper since they could sell the wheelbarrow's parts and make more money than the supposed total value of the pile of paper money they left behind!

With the move to digital banking and all you're moving around are 1s and 0s, where's your money's secured value? There isn't. If you check out that link above, it's scarily close to what's happening around the world now where governments are simply printing money but have no backing for it. History repeats itself if true.

I'm just glad I'm an employer w/ a small staff so I don't have the stress most people have. I don't envy anyone who got laid off and hope they'll get through this shithole of an economy.

I have already thought of this and its another reason why I seriously am going to start stock piling food. No I am not going to put all of my money in food.....but it doesnt hurt to spend an extra $100 a month on Ramen, Soup and other cheap long lasting foods. I dont think there will be a crash, but if there is one atleast I have food. And if there is no crash then guess what.....my grocery bills just wont be as big!

Its terrifying to think that not only could money become amazingly devaluated....but also we could have no access to it.

[jaykrue]

I have already thought of this and its another reason why I seriously am going to start stock piling food. No I am not going to put all of my money in food.....but it doesnt hurt to spend an extra $100 a month on Ramen, Soup and other cheap long lasting foods. I dont think there will be a crash, but if there is one atleast I have food. And if there is no crash then guess what.....my grocery bills just wont be as big!

Its terrifying to think that not only could money become amazingly devaluated....but also we could have no access to it.

I'm actually learning how to grow my own vegetables as I think it will be an invaluable skill in the future (even living in downtown Chicago :lol:). And I've no qualms about killing livestock as my grandmother showed me how to do that as a child in the Philippines. That way, I figure, even if money loses its value, I won't starve.8-) I've always lived by the philosophy of "buy a man a fish, and he lives another day; teach a man to fish, and he lives a lot longer".

[thrustbucket]

Hire me, jaykrue.

[looploop]

But you've got to remember one thing - money is only as good as the institution that backs it. If, for some reason, the global trust of the dollar is lost (which doesn't seem ridiculously impossible in the current economy), those savings you've set aside will be worth less than the paper its printed on.

There's the story (or urban legend, dunno if it's been verified) in the early 1920s of the German mark equal to one trillionth of a dollar (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheights/shared/minitext/ess_germanhyperinflation.html). Yeah, that's not a typo. One trillionth. It was so bad that a wheelbarrow full of money couldn't buy a loaf of bread and thieves would rather steal the wheelbarrow and dump the paper since they could sell the wheelbarrow's parts and make more money than the supposed total value of the pile of paper money they left behind!

With the move to digital banking and all you're moving around are 1s and 0s, where's your money's secured value? There isn't. If you check out that link above, it's scarily close to what's happening around the world now where governments are simply printing money but have no backing for it. History repeats itself if true.

I'm just glad I'm an employer w/ a small staff so I don't have the stress most people have. I don't envy anyone who got laid off and hope they'll get through this shithole of an economy.

You don't need to go back a century to see an abysmal currency. Just take a gander at Zimbabwe.:
Zimbabwe Knocks 10 Zeroes Off Currency (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/31/zimbabwe)
Zimbabwe Inflation Hits 231,000,000% (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7660569.stm)

[jaykrue]

Hire me, jaykrue.

Sorry, just like most other companies, we're in a hiring freeze. :cry:

[Koggit]

I'm selling my car now because nobody will be able to afford it in a couple months

[mykevermin]

You don't need to go back a century to see an abysmal currency. Just take a gander at Zimbabwe.:
Zimbabwe Knocks 10 Zeroes Off Currency (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/31/zimbabwe)
Zimbabwe Inflation Hits 231,000,000% (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7660569.stm)

They have Mugabe's don't-give-a-shit-about-the-plebes attitude to deal with there.

Argentina's economy was in a similar spot in this decade as well, if memory serves.

[Friend of Sonic]

I'd like to thank our government.

[VioletArrows]

I sure picked a fine time to graduate.
And quit drinking.
And stop smoking.
And snorting coke.

[BigT]

They have Mugabe's don't-give-a-shit-about-the-plebes attitude to deal with there.

Argentina's economy was in a similar spot in this decade as well, if memory serves.

Looks like Mugabe's plan to kick white farmers out of Zimbabwe is going really well! Now everyone gets to starve... that'll show them!
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2007-11/2007-11-12-voa14.cfm?CFID=75177730&CFTOKEN=63482825

[dmaul1114]

But you've got to remember one thing - money is only as good as the institution that backs it. If, for some reason, the global trust of the dollar is lost (which doesn't seem ridiculously impossible in the current economy), those savings you've set aside will be worth less than the paper its printed on.


That's true of course. But like I said I'm just not one of those worry wart pessimists and just can't live life worrying about and preparing for worst case scenarios. If people want to stockpile food etc., that's perfectly fine. I'm just not willing to worry about shit to that level. I'm well educated and pretty resourceful, short of world war III I think I'll make it through any recessions or depressions just fine. If not, I'll deal with it then. Carpe diem.

[JolietJake]

My fiancee thinks I am crazy because I have been buying extra canned goods and Ramen Noodles. I mean Christ their like $0.18 and $0.60 and I am just buying a few extra here and there on the off chance that jokes like the ones you and Dead just made become reality.

Also was looked at as crazy over Thanksgiving when people were talking about what they would do if they won the lottery. I said good economy or bad I would do the same thing as any other time invest some, splurge by buying a bunch of games and my only other splurge would be to build a fully stocked bomb shelter. Thats where the crazy comes in and I just don't understand why people think its crazy. I am not saying I think we are going to hit a horrid depression, nor that terrorists will hit the US with a biological weapon, or that bird flu will happen. Just that on the off(but growing) chance that something like that does happen I think it would be nice to have a bomb shelter that's fully stocked.People did the same thing when everyone thought that the Y2K bug would be the end of the world.

[fatherofcaitlyn]

Carpe diem.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/romefallarticles/a/fallofrome.htm

...

It is a shame you won't have children so that your descendants might tell my descendants how well things worked out.

[MSI Magus]

People did the same thing when everyone thought that the Y2K bug would be the end of the world.

I am not talking about drawing all of my money out the banks though or buying enough food for the next 3 years. I am just talking about buying a few extra packs of Ramen Noodles here and there. I bought like 130 packs toda and it cost me like $20 or something like that and I had the extra kitchen space anyways. So wahts the harm in buying a little extra food? As I stated if nothing happens then cool, the world goes on like usual and I can still eat this food anyways?

[JolietJake]

130 packs of ramen? Fucking hell. If the zombie apocalypse happens, i'm raiding your kitchen.

[lilboo]

Everyone should shop at Aldi ^_^
It usually lasts us about 2 weeks (minus perishables) and today's bill as $67! Nice!

<3 Aldi <3

[crystalklear64]

Ramen, multivitamins, prunes, and water.

gogo college diet.

[integralsmatic]

there is nothing wrong with Ramen...especially at that price. Who cares, I still eat that stuff any chance i get.

[level1online]

"The government totally sucks, you mother fucker

the government totally suuuuuuuucks...."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1kq0eL-ly8

"you callin me a mother fucker?"

[MSI Magus]

130 packs of ramen? Fucking hell. If the zombie apocalypse happens, i'm raiding your kitchen.

Think about it though. 130 packs and there are 2 of us. Thats only 65 packs each. That means if something did happen with rationing a pack a day we would only have enough for 2 months roughly. Again sounds paranoid buying that much but realistically it aint shit.

Also was that Tenacious D from the Pick of Destiny? I have seen the movie but totally dont recall that scene if so.

[JolietJake]

Think about it though. 130 packs and there are 2 of us. Thats only 65 packs each. That means if something did happen with rationing a pack a day we would only have enough for 2 months roughly. Again sounds paranoid buying that much but realistically it aint shit.

Also was that Tenacious D from the Pick of Destiny? I have seen the movie but totally dont recall that scene if so.
That's if you're only eating the ramen though, you have other stuff too didn't you say?

I know a woman who stocked up like crazy because she thought the world would end on Jan 1 2000. She had so much food to eat, she was trying to offload it on other people.

Of course around here people raid the grocery stores every time someone mentions snow.

[dmaul1114]

http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/romefallarticles/a/fallofrome.htm

...

It is a shame you won't have children so that your descendants might tell my descendants how well things worked out.

Now now. I'm not saying I have no regard for the future. You don't get a Master's and Ph D with a 100% live for today attitude as that's a long term time investment with a very delayed gratification. :D

I just can't be all paranoid and pessimistic and worry about worse case scenarios all the time. I just life my life, do the best I can to make future secure, but in the end of the day it's all pointless if you're not doing as much as you reasonably can to enjoy daily life.

[thrustbucket]

I agree with you dmaul. Everyone needs to still enjoy life, to some extent. That's why all this is ultimately pretty personal. But I do think that people should be making SOME changes in their habits in these times, although it will depend on the person, like you pointed out, just how extreme they are comfortable with.

[dmaul1114]

I agree with you dmaul. Everyone needs to still enjoy life, to some extent. That's why all this is ultimately pretty personal. But I do think that people should be making SOME changes in their habits in these times, although it will depend on the person, like you pointed out, just how extreme they are comfortable with.

Exactly. And it varies by each person's financial situation. Someone like MSI Magus should be concerned and making changes since he's disabled and his fiancee works in the auto industry and her job is dependent on GM.

I just signed a good job contract for next year, and will probably move in with my girlfriend in the summer so I'll be making a lot more money and having less expenses (though student loan payments will balance that out). We'll have a combined income of around $125,000 next year so I'm not worried about affording food in the short term so no need to stock up.

But I can understand for sure why someone in tougher circumstances would be taking more precautions as I'm very lucky and very fortunate to be doing so well in todays economy.

[thrustbucket]

I won't lie to you dmaul, I just flat out enjoy survival paranoia :). I like reading about how to survive different disasters. I like bargain shopping for bulk non-perishable food. I really enjoy saving up for generators and I often daydream about life that is something between now and Fallout 3. I know, crazy. But it's true. For some reason I think my life would have far more purpose in such a scenario. So even when the economy was fine, I still did it. It's just fun to me (and perhaps to FOC too, it seems).

So what I'm really saying is - it's not always about fear. I think some people are just born to be into this stuff and they really shine when things get shitty for most people. Other than that, I'm not really sure what my point was..... :)

[MSI Magus]

That's if you're only eating the ramen though, you have other stuff too didn't you say?

I know a woman who stocked up like crazy because she thought the world would end on Jan 1 2000. She had so much food to eat, she was trying to offload it on other people.

Of course around here people raid the grocery stores every time someone mentions snow.

Not much, most of its just to get ate here and there. Picked up some extra Tuna and some extra soup but 90% of its Ramen and ill keep buying mostly Ramen here and there because its $0.16 for Ramen vs other stuff is 3x that much.

[dmaul1114]

Well, one problem with that is a diet of straight ramen (assuming the worst happens and you're left eating just that) isn't going to do much for your health.

It's just carbs, very little vitamins, protein etc. So if you're going to be paranoid try to stock up some canned meat, vegatables and fruit too. :D

[lilboo]

Canned Meat ?!?!?!?

[dmaul1114]

Canned Meat ?!?!?!?

Tuna?

Hell, and as nasty as spam and some of the other shit is, it would at least be protein in a worst case scenario. :D

[thrustbucket]

Well, one problem with that is a diet of straight ramen (assuming the worst happens and you're left eating just that) isn't going to do much for your health.

It's just carbs, very little vitamins, protein etc. So if you're going to be paranoid try to stock up some canned meat, vegatables and fruit too. :D

Hanging out with some koreans, I have discovered that using Ramen as a starting point you can make some really delicious dishes. Of course, you'll need a lot of other ingredients to do it, but I am pretty surprised just how good ramen can be.

Kimchi ftw.

[lilboo]

Tuna?

Hell, and as nasty as spam and some of the other shit is, it would at least be protein in a worst case scenario. :D

:-k
Didn't that about that! <3 Tuna <3
Tuna is pretty bad ass. How did I totally forget about that.

When I hear "canned meat" I'm thinking like "steak in a can" .. :rofl: ewww

You dont even need to stock up on JUST "Ramen". They have boxed stuff, like those boxed pasta side dishes for $.79...and they are pretty GOOD/TASTY. May not be the healthiest things.. but still.

Plus pasta is really cheap as hell, and making your own gravy for it is pretty easy.

If we have bread lines, I think I'll be ok. We haven't really been hit hard with any of this stuff. We are just spending too much money on Christmas.. but as for job security we are both "ok". I still get my 40 hours a week and my BF has been cut of overtime.. which is reasonable.

[Access_Denied]

Canned Meat ?!?!?!?

Sure. Everybody loves cheeseburger in a can.

http://www.doobybrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/cheeseburger-in-a-can-6.jpg

This is real BTW, not made up.

[mykevermin]

Well, one problem with that is a diet of straight ramen (assuming the worst happens and you're left eating just that) isn't going to do much for your health.

It's just carbs, very little vitamins, protein etc. So if you're going to be paranoid try to stock up some canned meat, vegatables and fruit too. :D

Don't forget the boatload of sodium in the 'sauce packets.'

[SpazX]

Don't forget the boatload of sodium in the 'sauce packets.'

You'll need the sodium to replace what you sweat out running from the mobs who found out you have a stockpile of food.

[QiG]

Yeah, I was going to mention that the level of sodium in most non-perishable food is 'very high'. Also.. make sure you have a good supply of water to go with that ramen or it will be useless. (clean water supplies will only last so long if it gets to the point that you're envisioning).

Otherwise, I talk to my friend who is in management at Dicks Sporting Goods and he shrugs everything off as, "I have yet to be affected by all this shit going on." I'm going to make a bold assumption that he doesn't have any type of 401k or investment portfolio. And then I take the time to read how people feel about everything and that's what gets me nervous. It wasn't a shock to hear the president of our company announce that there will be a freeze on pay raises indefinitely but I didn't think much of it until I read this thread. Needless to say I updated my resume midway through and am considering applying for a government job in hopes of stability.

[fatherofcaitlyn]

Even though I buy in bulk some weeks, I'm probably the most optimistic I've been about my personal economic situation since 2005 or maybe late 2002.

I don't think the world is going to end in 12 months.

Then again, where will we be in 12 months?

Will we be almost done in Iraq and back to ignoring Afghanistan since we really, really can't afford either war?

Will inflation be double digits since we have expanded the number of dollars in circulation or will people not notice the Federal government is buying its own bonds?

Will unemployment be in double digits due to the deaths of the Big 3 or will the government be propping them up as some sort of welfare program?

[fatherofcaitlyn]

Needless to say I updated my resume midway through and am considering applying for a government job in hopes of stability.

:lol:

I don't think any government position outside of military is stable and they're only stable as long as there are two wars going.

[QiG]

:lol:

I don't think any government position outside of military is stable and they're only stable as long as there are two wars going.

I'd be looking towards DFAS for work. I'd much rather count on world conflict for work than demand for vending machine service, parts, and equipment (my current company).

[MSI Magus]

:lol:

I don't think any government position outside of military is stable and they're only stable as long as there are two wars going.

Well and they have been cutting lots of government jobs too. I think there are only 2 safe goverment jobs at this point that I can think of. 1. Water treatment. My mom works at a water treatment plant and its something we are always going to need. 2. Defense/Security. Times get bad working in a prison or the army is a good place to be.

[thrustbucket]

:lol:

I don't think any government position outside of military is stable and they're only stable as long as there are two wars going.

Come on now, if you land a job at the IRS, you are gold for life.