4 Teens Could Spend 120 Years in Prison for Violent Rape/Sodomy

[HotShotX]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/04/florida.sexual.assault/index.html

Four teenage boys in Tampa, Florida, were charged as adults Wednesday on allegations of sexually assaulting a 13-year-old boy. Charged with four counts each of sexual battery were Randall John Moye, 14; Raymond A. Price-Murray, 14; Lee Louis Myers, 14; and Diamante J. Roberts, 15. CNN is naming the defendants because they were charged as adults.

Hillsborough County prosecutors allege the four boys raped the 13-year-old victim multiple times over two months with a broomstick and hockey stick.
At a bond and arraignment hearing, the defendants appeared before Hillsborough County Judge Wayne Timmerman to hear the counts against them read in court.

Prosecutor Kimberly Hindman described to the court how two defendants held down the victim while the other two defendants violently sodomized him with the sticks. "The victim screamed and cried, telling them to stop," Hindman said.
The prosecutor said the victim's screams could be heard outside the boys' locker room at Walker Middle School, in southern Tampa, where the allegedly assaults took place.

Multiple people witnessed the attacks, but no one reported the incidents, including the victim, Hindman said.

The school began an investigation after a fight that began on the football field and continued until a coach broke it up in the locker room, said the prosecutor. During the fight, the victim said, "I'm tired of them getting on me," Hindman said.

When school officials questioned the defendants, all four admitted in a written statement sexually assaulting the victim.

The defendants "all implicated themselves in a sexual-battery incident," Hindman said.

The victim did not acknowledge the attacks until questioned. School officials contacted authorities, who initially charged the four as minors with sexual assault and false imprisonment.

Several students witnessed the incidents over the two months, said the prosecutor, who added that she could not understand why no one reported the attacks.

The victim made a statement in court, telling the judge how his father was angry and his mother couldn't stop crying when they heard about the attacks.

Defense attorneys told the judge their clients were good students and had never been in trouble before. Attorney Tim Taylor, representing Randall Moye, said his client's family is among the finest in the community.

Taylor presented six character witnesses, including his client's mother, Jeanne Myers, who said her son wants to attend college. The prosecutor asked her about her son's written statement about the attacks. Myers said her son described clowning around in the locker room with a hockey stick. She added that he told her about holding down the victim for a few seconds.

The victim finished the academic year at home instead of returning to school, authorities said.

The judge set bond for each defendant at $15,000, with ankle monitors for all but one, who has left the area. The four boys were taken into custody in court and booked into the adult jail. The judge warned the four to have no contact with one another, the victim or any witnesses in the case.

The defendants could spend up to 120 years in prison if convicted on all four counts.

I'm not sure what kind of debate is going to spawn from this, but wow, just wow.

~HotShotX

[Jimbo Slice]

Wow.... that is one of the most fucked up things I've ever read

[SpeedyG]

Sweet let them be the one's getting things jammed in their anal cavities for a bit

[mykevermin]

14-year olds.

Self-implication.

Still tried as adults.

What a wonderful criminal justice system we have.

[Hydro2Oxide]

Life in prison for shoving a stick up a kids ass seems like overkill. I mean that's totally messed up but kids are stupid, I'd say 5-10 and possibly a psych evaluation. You have to be pretty messed up to do that for 2 months constantly.

[DarkSageRK]

14-year olds.

Self-implication.

Still tried as adults.

What a wonderful criminal justice system we have.

When I was 14, I knew what I was doing. It's not like these guys are 5.

[lilboo]

That's pretty messed up.
I mean, yeah, when I was 13, 14 I was taking tennis rackets up the poop shoot..but it's consent god damnit.

Though, as fucked up as it is..120 years? :lol: Def need to be put away somewhere..maybe 20 years or something.

[speedracer]

Ow.

[fatherofcaitlyn]

Lilboo, since you may be probable expert on these matters ... Wouldn't those actions with a broomstick ... um, generate a large blood stain?

[lilboo]

Well, of course you could put a condom on the broomstick for protection against splinters or anything else...since, um, they most likely did not...yeah, this kid probably poops and doesn't even know it. :cry:

[Snake2715]

Sweet let them be the one's getting things jammed in their anal cavities for a bit


They should get a free copy of the new Mario and Luigi Bowsers inside story, as a parting gift to prison.

[XxFuRy2Xx]

Man, what a bunch of messed up little bastards. I think that combined they'll serve 120 years, not 120 years each. So 30 years a piece sounds good to me.

Also, I don't think they should take it easy on them because they're 14. When you're 14 you know the difference between right and wrong, and you definitely know you can't go around sodomizing people against their will. 14 year olds are allowed to make mistakes and mess up, but this is beyond that.

[kube00]

Let the punishment fit the crime, bring on nasty torture devices, make the guilty scream!

That would be better then prison...

[lilboo]

Why not locked away in prison for 5-7 years WITH pedophiles and rapists? :lol:

[HowStern]

They are probably charging them as adults because if they charged them as minors then the max they can put them away for is 6 years.

IMO they desrve more than that, hence why they are being charged as adults. One time incident, maybe minor. But this went on for 2 months,

[fatherofcaitlyn]

Scene: A father in his mid forties is sitting on a porch steps with his son in his early teens. The boy is visibly upset.

Father: Hey, Sport, what the problem?

Son: Nuthin'.

Father: Really? I mean, your pants have been covered in blood. Every time you walk past, it sounds like a standing ovation. You watch that scene in Pulp Fiction with the rednecks and the black guy over and over again. Are you sure?

Son: <Sigh> I'm sure.

Father: OK. Would you like a coke?

<Father hands Son a bottle of coke.>

<Son put bottle up his ass and twists it open.>

EDIT: 6-7 years would be adequate. They're minors, not adults. Now, about suing the school ...

[HowStern]

I would say keep them out of society, not necessarily in prison the entire time, for 10 years. They will be 25 when they get out. This gives them plenty of time to finish school(most of which will be done in custody) and still have a family and future.

But the 120 years thing in the headline is just meant to be sensational. No judge will give them that.

[GuilewasNK]

And they wonder why shit like Columbine happens (not to condone that sort of actvity at all).

They said several people saw this and did nothing. Apathy is a big problem with bullying of any kind. This just happens to be more heinous.

I hate to say it, but sometimes I think the only way some of these stupid ass people that do stuff like this will learn is the "eye for an eye" method. Of course if they knew the "golden rule" it wouldn't come to that.

I have no problem with whatever time these kids get. The only reason it stopped was because the victim finally had the courage to speak up, not because the perpetrators came to the realization that a human being shouldn't be treated like that.

[mykevermin]

I hate to say it, but sometimes I think the only way some of these stupid ass people that do stuff like this will learn is the "eye for an eye" method.

Based on what evidence?

[itachiitachi]

Based on what evidence?
I believe the institution of a death penalty reduces the rate of premeditated murder.

[mykevermin]

murder rates have increased since Gregg v Georgia.

[itachiitachi]

murder rates have increased since Gregg v Georgia.
Is that premeditated murder rates? I can't find any statistics on premeditated murder rates.
But according to Biology and Human Behavior - The Neurological Origins of Individuality Capital punishment has been shown to decrease premeditated murder while doing nothing to impulsive murder.

[mykevermin]

I'll be happy to compare UCR data - but ask me again in a day or so. balls deep in term papers.

[fatherofcaitlyn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_(legal_term)

[Koggit]

When I was 14, I knew what I was doing. It's not like these guys are 5.
then should the age of consent be 14? or 13, like one of the kids? should a 13 year old girl be able to decide whether or not she wants to sleep with a 30 year old man? after all, when you were 14 you knew what you were doing, and girls develop faster than boys, so. . .

they're kids dude.. they're still developing.. they need punishment but not the rest of their life in prison.

I would say keep them out of society, not necessarily in prison the entire time, for 10 years. They will be 25 when they get out. This gives them plenty of time to finish school(most of which will be done in custody) and still have a family and future.
that's sorta the idea behind juvy, a detention center for juveniles, as the kids' mistakes don't warrant prison and exposure to prisonwould likely turn them to life-long criminals, the big problem there is juvy's not much better and would likely do the same thing.

[SpeedyG]

then should the age of consent be 14? or 13, like one of the kids? should a 13 year old girl be able to decide whether or not she wants to sleep with a 30 year old man? after all, when you were 14 you knew what you were doing, and girls develop faster than boys, so. . .

they're kids dude.. they're still developing.. they need punishment but not the rest of their life in prison.


that's sorta the idea behind juvy, a detention center for juveniles, as the kids' mistakes don't warrant prison and exposure to prisonwould likely turn them to life-long criminals, the big problem there is juvy's not much better and would likely do the same thing.
They tortured and sexually abused another boy several times... The least they deserve is life in prison

[JolietJake]

Defense attorneys told the judge their clients were good students and had never been in trouble before. Attorney Tim Taylor, representing Randall Moye, said his client's family is among the finest in the community.

So how the fuck do you go from never having been in trouble, to raping somebody up the ass with a stick? Something doesn't smell right, and it isn't the stick.

[Koggit]

They tortured and sexually abused another boy several times... The least they deserve is life in prison
they are children

[HowStern]

then should the age of consent be 14? or 13, like one of the kids? should a 13 year old girl be able to decide whether or not she wants to sleep with a 30 year old man? after all, when you were 14 you knew what you were doing, and girls develop faster than boys, so. . .

they're kids dude.. they're still developing.. they need punishment but not the rest of their life in prison.


that's sorta the idea behind juvy, a detention center for juveniles, as the kids' mistakes don't warrant prison and exposure to prisonwould likely turn them to life-long criminals, the big problem there is juvy's not much better and would likely do the same thing.


Turn them into criminals? After a 2 month rape spree they are criminals. It doesn't get much worse than that.

Juvenile hall is for short term. The average Juvy sentence is 2 weeks.

[GuilewasNK]

Based on what evidence?

Well, experiencing something brings greater understanding of that act, regardless if it is good or bad. For example, that is why people are getting on Hannity for not doing the waterboarding. Perhaps if he had, he'd truly understand the act and what it can do to a person.

That being said, I don't think it is a good (or legal) idea to perpetrate a criminal act on someone just so they can understand. All I am saying is some people are so ridiculously stupid or mentally challenged that being on the receiving end of their act is the only way they can truly understand the pain they inflicted. I don't mean it as a means of punishment for a crime.

[Koggit]

Turn them into criminals? After a 2 month rape spree they are criminals. It doesn't get much worse than that.

Juvenile hall is for short term. The average Juvy sentence is 2 weeks.
do you honestly believe these kids understand rape? do you honestly think they thought of it much differently than just beating the kid up? even a large portion of adults don't understand the implications of rape, i have a very hard time accepting even the possibility that these kids fully understand what they've done, and to send them to prison for it would be an abomination.

my step bro was in juvy for 6 mo and when we went visit him it was terrible, just like a prison

[RAMSTORIA]

do you honestly believe these kids understand rape? do you honestly think they thought of it much differently than just beating the kid up?

yes and yes.

that being said 120 years is over the top, but they need to be locked away for a good amount of time.

[Koggit]

do you fully understand rape?

i can honestly say i didn't really get why rape was worse than assault/torture until i was in my late teens.. not that i'd given a lot of thought, but i def think it's not something children can understand. that's the whole reason we have statutory rape laws. children do not possess the capacity to understand sexual acts.

[docvinh]

they are children

This. What they did was wrong, and I'm sure if I was the parents of the kid I would want the same thing, but seriously, if you want to charge minors as adults, shouldn't we just change the age limit for minors then? What the hell is the age limit for if you can just bypass it?

[DarkSageRK]

then should the age of consent be 14? or 13, like one of the kids? should a 13 year old girl be able to decide whether or not she wants to sleep with a 30 year old man? after all, when you were 14 you knew what you were doing, and girls develop faster than boys, so. . .


This isn't really relevant to the topic, but w/e.

I think puberty is a good enough time for consent. It's better than the arbitrary "Oh, 18/17/16 is good enough." You know what? I checked on the day before/after each my birthdays and nothing was different. I didn't suddenly gain a magical amount of wisdom from the last time the Earth rotated on its axis.

Puberty is at least a sensible benchmark, and you know what? It's a natural one. When one is able to have children, one is obviously ready for sex. Equate it to whatever you want, but if it's natural it must be there for a reason, right? Don't bitch at me. Blame your god for not thinking like you do.

[dafoomie]

Juvy isn't that bad. And I would expect a 14 year old to understand.

7 to 10 each. Their lives will be far from over once they leave prison at 21-24 years of age, and coming from the "finest" (richest) families in town, I expect they'll have ample opportunity to do whatever they want afterwards.


Above poster is probably in between puberty and age of consent from the way he talks.

[kube00]

rape is about power over another person.

[HowStern]

do you honestly believe these kids understand rape? do you honestly think they thought of it much differently than just beating the kid up? even a large portion of adults don't understand the implications of rape, i have a very hard time accepting even the possibility that these kids fully understand what they've done, and to send them to prison for it would be an abomination.

my step bro was in juvy for 6 mo and when we went visit him it was terrible, just like a prison


I don't think they understand what they did at all. Which is exactly why they need to be put away for a good amount of time. To make damn sure they adequately realize the full seriousness of the crime they committed before they are free to roam society again.

6 months is one of the lenghiest juvy stays most people get. You usually go for a month at max and then are transferred to a home for 6-12 months. I grew up in a shitty area I know all about it.

They should not be completely free of the justice system until they are 21+. This would give time for puberty and adolescence to run it's course. I would say prison until 18, halfway house til 21, probation until 25.

Your idea of prison turning them into hardened criminals is ludicrous. They already committed a heinous crime. It doesn't get much "harder." That argument belongs to kids going to jail for dealing pot or stealing. Not raping someone for 2 months straight.

[Koggit]

uhg, the internet is stupid, i quit, i quit the internet

[JolietJake]

Regardless of age, i can't believe these kids didn't know that having a stick shoved up your ass could hurt. It doesn't take much thought to figure it out.

[Koggit]

we dont send kids to prison for hurting other kids

[GuilewasNK]

do you honestly believe these kids understand rape? do you honestly think they thought of it much differently than just beating the kid up? even a large portion of adults don't understand the implications of rape, i have a very hard time accepting even the possibility that these kids fully understand what they've done, and to send them to prison for it would be an abomination.

my step bro was in juvy for 6 mo and when we went visit him it was terrible, just like a prison

They understood what was happening when they shoved a hockey stick in that boy's anus for two months while he cried out for them to stop.

What did your step-brother do to be in juvenile detention?

[Quillion]

uhg, the internet is stupid, i quit, i quit the internet
The Internet wishes it knew how to quit you.

[Koggit]

(1) They understood what was happening when they shoved a hockey stick in that boy's anus for two months while he cried out for them to stop.

(2) What did your step-brother do to be in juvenile detention?

1) the whole argument is absolutely stupid on two levels. if you believe these kids should be tried as adults then you mustn't believe the law should discriminate by age -- or for that matter, by sanity, mental retardation, etc. their lack of capacity for understanding their action (necessary for crime) is indisputable for two reasons.

a) it is impossible for kids to understand sexual assault. if you disagree, then you don't think statutory should be a crime, since a child's lack of understanding is the whole basis of statutory rape. i really doubt many, if anyone, thinks kids should be allowed to decide whether or not they're ready for sex. the exact same reasoning applies here.

b) even if it they understood the severity, the whole reason kids are tried as kids and adults are tried as adults is because children mostly will not and are not expected to, as HowStern put it, "realize the full seriousness of the crime" -- and even if they did, their frontal lobes are woefully underdeveloped and thereby cannot understand the consequences of their actions (not just punishment -- they cannot understand the effect of what they're doing).


2) it was sort of a string of actions, fights / theft / vandalism / etc. the straw that finally broke something or other was stealing my dad's credit card and ordering a bunch of car stereo stuff.

[JolietJake]

I can say with a fair amount of certainly, that at that age, if i were doing that to someone and they were crying out in pain, i'd probably realize i was hurting them.

I think people underestimate some of these kids, they aren't all naive little innocents.

[Koggit]

if you know that you're doing something you should be criminally responsible for it? that's the only requirement?

okay... guess all kids can be tried as adults now.

[Friend of Sonic]

Koggit. How about the fact they're doing adult activities? This isn't stealing candy from the store. This is some deep, dark activities they're doing that typically only adults engage in (though I'm sure there's more cases than just these teens). I could gather 100 14 year olds who could tell you rape is wrong, and I bet I'll be damn close to having an unanimous agreement of "WTF-- dude!"

[Koggit]

so none of you think we should treat kids any differently than adults.. okay..

[HowStern]

Koggit, you have a very skewed view of the justice system. I don't know where you got the idea that a punishment should vary depending on whether or not the perpetrator knew what they were doing was wrong.

Punishments are meant to teach people what they did was wrong. Before you get all riled up chill out and I'll give you a perfect example.

My daughter is 3. She knows she isn't supposed to jump on the furniture. My wife and I have told her a thousand times. But when she gets all full of energy it isn't long before she becomes spider-man and the couch and chair are buildings just like every kid. She's only 3 so she genuinely gets caught up in the moment and forgets what she is doing is wrong and doesn't understand the full seriousness of it that she could get get hurt. So should my wife and I let her get away with it?
No. We give her a time out she gets upset, gets over it, and it helps teach her and gives her time to realize and remember what she did was wrong so she isn't as likely to do it again.

[GuilewasNK]

1) the whole argument is absolutely stupid on two levels. if you believe these kids should be tried as adults then you mustn't believe the law should discriminate by age -- or for that matter, by sanity, mental retardation, etc. their lack of capacity for understanding their action (necessary for crime) is indisputable for two reasons.



You posed the question of whether or not the kids understood rape, and I answered it 100% correctly that they did understand rape. To argue otherwise is asinine. No place in my response was I responding to the right and wrongs of charging them as adults.

[fatherofcaitlyn]

Sadly, Koggit is right.

I know we really want to punish these 4 boys, but how about the dozens of witnesses who saw or heard the repeated sexual assaults? Free pass or not?

[Autumn Star]

Koggit, you have a very skewed view of the justice system. I don't know where you got the idea that a punishment should vary depending on whether or not the perpetrator knew what they were doing was wrong.

Punishments are meant to teach people what they did was wrong. Before you get all riled up chill out and I'll give you a perfect example.

My daughter is 3. She knows she isn't supposed to jump on the furniture. My wife and I have told her a thousand times. But when she gets all full of energy it isn't long before she becomes spider-man and the couch and chair are buildings just like every kid. She's only 3 so she genuinely gets caught up in the moment and forgets what she is doing is wrong and doesn't understand the full seriousness of it that she could get get hurt. So should my wife and I let her get away with it?
No. We give her a time out she gets upset, gets over it, and it helps teach her and gives her time to realize and remember what she did was wrong so she isn't as likely to do it again.

First of all, I'd like to point out that I actually agree with Koggit for once on an issue.

HowStern, your daughter is a perfect example. The severity of their situation is far more serious, but it still a relativity good example. Though, think about what you said. You give her a time out, and it helps her learn not to do it again. If you send these boys to jail for 120 years, how will they ever learn not do it again? Well, maybe they'll learn, but they'll never be able to apply what they learned from this experience. They deserve to be punished, that's a given, but they're still children. The beauty of being a child is being able to fuck up and still be given a second chance. They stuck a stick up some boys ass. It's horrible and cruel, but they can still be productive members of society. I'm sure they just thought it was funny, and I'm also sure they knew it was wrong. They'll learn their lesson while they're in jail for 5-20 years, but there's no need to have an excessive punishment such as 120 years. That just puts more (and may I add, unnecessary) burden on the prison system.

[billyrox]

Regardless of age, i can't believe these kids didn't know that having a stick shoved up your ass could hurt. It doesn't take much thought to figure it out.


seriously, wtf...:roll: even a 5 yo kid would know that causes serious pain to another

[Koggit]

nice 100% correct assessment of some kids you read a short article about


stern: why are you still babbling, you think we should charge all children as criminal adults for their acts, hold them responsible, okay, fine, i acknowledge your irrational opinion

[JolietJake]

if you know that you're doing something you should be criminally responsible for it? that's the only requirement?

okay... guess all kids can be tried as adults now.
....I'm...not even sure what that is supposed to mean, but based on my understanding of what i think you mean, then yeah.

I mean for fuck sake man, they weren't stringing the kid up by his underwear, they anally raped the kid. I thought i had it bad in school, but that goes beyond anything i've ever heard of. Where the hell do you draw the line between typical school bullying and a criminal act?

If they really don't understand what they did and why it was bad, maybe they should be shown, at least then they'll understand what they did to this poor kid. I guarantee it would be an experience they'd never forget, i know the victim certainly won't.

[HowStern]

First of all, I'd like to point out that I actually agree with Koggit for once on an issue.

HowStern, your daughter is a perfect example. The severity of their situation is far more serious, but it still a relativity good example. Though, think about what you said. You give her a time out, and it helps her learn not to do it again. If you send these boys to jail for 120 years, how will they ever learn not do it again? Well, maybe they'll learn, but they'll never be able to apply what they learned from this experience. They deserve to be punished, that's a given, but they're still children. The beauty of being a child is being able to fuck up and still be given a second chance. They stuck a stick up some boys ass. It's horrible and cruel, but they can still be productive members of society. I'm sure they just thought it was funny, and I'm also sure they knew it was wrong. They'll learn their lesson while they're in jail for 5-20 years, but there's no need to have an excessive punishment such as 120 years. That just puts more (and may I add, unnecessary) burden on the prison system.

I totally agree. Check out my other post above, I said 10 years would be a perfect sentence. It would give them time to learn their lesson and still have a future when they get out. 120 years is nuts and probably just used by the papers to make good headlines.

Koggit, with his irrational view of the justice system, thinks we should let them roam free without even a 5 year sentence because they are kids. So, basically if things were his way, kids could go around comitting atrocities like Hitler upon each other and since they are kids we should let them do it because we dont send kids to prison for hurting other kids according to him.
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k50/K1RO/Eric_Cartman_by_Thomeeczech.jpg"ha ha ha ha ha made you eat your parents!" "ha ha ha ha ha butt raped you for 2 months!"

[Friend of Sonic]

I smell a cartoon there. Hitler Jr.
"Mein kampf, mein kampf, did I do that?!"

[SpazX]

Alright then.

1. That's fucked up, yay bystander effect.
2. I don't understand why there are any juvenile sentences if minors are just going to be tried as adults (if the problem is that they're "adult" crimes, then why are there juvenile sentences for them?).
3. Man that one kid's mom is a bitch. I wonder why things like this happen.
4. Attorney Tim Taylor, awesome.

[Koggit]

Koggit, with his irrational view of the justice system, thinks we should let them roam free without even a 5 year sentence because they are kids.

that's totally what i said while advocating we try children as children..

awesome reading comprehension. ace job.

[HowStern]

that's totally what i said while advocating we try children as children..

awesome reading comprehension. ace job.

Well, please do exlpain what you find to be a fit sentence.
So far all you have said is that they shouldn't go to prison. Elaborate.

[Koggit]

Well, please do exlpain what you find to be a fit sentence.
So far all you have said is that they shouldn't go to prison. Elaborate.
do i look like judge dredd

no

i'm way more buff

children should be treated as children, our legal system (for good reason) treats children differently, it's moronic to arbitrarily say "i really don't like what you did, so i'm gonna pretend you're an adult for a little while"

[HowStern]

We can't just let them roam free while they contemplate why what they did was wrong though. It puts more innocent children at risk. We need to show them that they can't act like that. How do we do that?
I say 10 years in custody is fair. Maybe a few in prison, a few in a halfway house, last few on probation. In order to do that they have to be tried as adult because if tried as minors the max punishment is 6 years.
I believe that 6 years isn't enough time as they will be out right around the age 20. Possibly still too young to understand what they did was wrong and probably feeling hostile, instead of repentant, for being put away.

[Koggit]

oh, so you're judge dredd

stfu

[HowStern]

So, the same person that thinks fantasy rape games should be banned doesn't think actual 2 month long physical rape should be punished?


1.) If they charged these kids as minors we lose track of them at 18, 21 at the latest. The prosecutor is charging as adult because that is clearly not a long enough sentence. Should they give the whole 120 year sentence? No. Will they? No. 10 years is sufficient and fair but not possible if charged as minors.

2.) By suggesting they should be charged as minors you are suggesting they are free in 4 years. Hardly enough time to make them realize they can't act like that, and on top of that it sends a message to other kids that they will barely do any time if they want to butt rape some kid for 2 months.

Yes, that is exactly what I said, they should receive no punishment at all ever, I totally said that, you're awesome at reading, really great, you should go proSweet sentence structure.

[Koggit]

Yes, that is exactly what I said, they should receive no punishment at all ever, I totally said that, you're awesome at reading, really great, you should go pro

[RAMSTORIA]

koggit, i think what people what to know is what you think is a fair sentence for children. youve said that we should treat them differently. ok, but what does that entail... no sentence? 6 months in juvy and a year probation? juvy until theyre 18? im a bit curious myself what you think is just.

[GuilewasNK]

Yes, that is exactly what I said, they should receive no punishment at all ever, I totally said that, you're awesome at reading, really great, you should go pro

You aren't one to talk after you put words in my mouth.

At any rate you need to tell us what you would do as punishment/rehabilitation in this situation. So far, all you have done is the Helen Lovejoy "won't someone think of the children" thing.

[Koggit]

koggit, i think what people what to know is what you think is a fair sentence for children. youve said that we should treat them differently. ok, but what does that entail... no sentence? 6 months in juvy and a year probation? juvy until theyre 18? im a bit curious myself what you think is just.

there's no solution i'd really like to see. it's an unfortunate situation. what i think is just is irrelevant because that's for a juvenile court to decide, but to humor you i do not feel 6mo in juvy and 1yr probation would be too lenient. i wouldn't feel the situation was just -- there's no fit punishment for children who do something like this. it's like trying to sentence a retard for murder. the punishment, instead of correction and deterrence as we seek in adult court, should be to teach and shape as they develop... it's nearly impossible to administer, and no legal system in the world has come up with a good solution.

i suppose if i were judge dredd i'd force the parents to administer the punishment, which would vary depending on the child, and i don't know anywhere near enough psychology to speculate on what it'd entail.


the overall point isn't whether a sentence is too lenient or too strict, but rather, they are children and we must treat them accordingly regardless of how abhorrent adults find their behavior. we distinguish juvenile from adult for very good reason, children are still developing, and to arbitrarily throw that out because a particular act is exceptionally offensive is extremely irrational. if you think these children should be tried in adult court, then you must be against juvenile court in general, there is no in between of "these kids are responsible for their actions as adults but other kids for other crimes are not".. it's all so ludicrous.

note by "you" i don't necessarily mean you i just mean people

[lilboo]

No, these are teenagers.. NOT kids.
Teenagers are assholes and they know right from wrong and should be treated as such. Fuck, I was a prick when I was 14 years old. Should I have been able to do and say what I wanted? Fuck know. I knew what I was doing.

If this was like.. a bunch of 7-8 year olds ...theeennn this would be different. WAY different. But of course, since they are all minors it wouldn't matter..right? :roll:

[Koggit]

brass tax time, add a third if i'm wrong but there are only two reasons to support trying them as adults:

(a) you believe juvenile court should offer stricter punishments than they do --> valid enough opinion, how strict is too strict? and if no limit, then why distinguish between juvenile court and adult court at all?

(b) you believe 14+ year olds are criminally responsible for rape --> if they're responsible for rape, they're responsible for anything they do ergo all 14+ year olds should be tried in adult court.

[Magehart]

Have them serve the sentence until they're 18 then make them register as sex offenders. Nothing is more punishing than being registered as a sex offender.

[camoor]

uhg, the internet is stupid, i quit, i quit the internet

Oh gods let this be true!

[JJSP]

brass tax time, add a third if i'm wrong but there are only two reasons to support trying them as adults:

(b) you believe 14+ year olds are criminally responsible for rape --> if they're responsible for rape, they're responsible for anything they do ergo all 14+ year olds should be tried in adult court.
I'll go with the latter. Try them as an adult, let them serve out their sentence in a juvenile facility until they're 18, at which point transfer them to gen pop. Darwinism will handle things, and they'll be eliminated from society in approximately six months.

At 14, you're old enough to know better.

[shelisheli]

these kids are old enough to know right from wrong. i think that laws protecting teens need revision. even though i agree that each case is different i believe that kids who commits certain crimes MUST be charged as adults. (rape, murder and attempted murder being a few) teens shouldnt be given lighter sentences just because of their ages. rape is still rape no matter who did it.

i wonder what else those sickos were up to..

[Koggit]

these kids are old enough to know right from wrong. i think that laws protecting teens need revision. even though i agree that each case is different i believe that kids who commits certain crimes MUST be charged as adults. (rape, murder and attempted murder being a few) teens shouldnt be given lighter sentences just because of their ages. rape is still rape no matter who did it.

i wonder what else those sickos were up to..

but why on earth would you give special treatment for something like theft but not more severe crimes? why distinguish?

imo it should be all or nothing.. they either have the same responsibility for their actions as an adult or they do not.

these 14 year olds are tried as adults for rape now, and tomorrow a 16 year old will be tried as a child for stealing a car -- it makes no sense...

[gareman]

Kroggit is 100% correct on this.

THESE ARE KIDS.

1. 14 year olds that are capable of doing this to a boy definitely do not need to spend their entire adolescence and early adulthood in a prison being labeled child rapists. I would almost prefer, if one takes out of the equation the boys as human beings, to them being locked up for life as opposed to the 6-10 years most people are screaming for.

2. Kids under the age of 16 (believe it or not the age of consent is not completely arbitrary) brains cannot comprehend the complex issues of sex and especially sexual assault. Their brains literally are not developed enough to understand the meaning they or the other person involved is experiencing. This is why girls 17 and under (sometimes even older) often think that any guy likes them if they fooled around with them or the girl thinks they need to have sex just to make the guy like them. The reason is that usually girls, especially under the age of 16 or 17, are almost incapable of separating sex from relationships and general affection from lust.

3. While the kids knew it was wrong that is not an issue. I am sure they knew it was wrong, but when your brain isn't fully developed right and wrong is not what is difficult (I would almost argue that is easy as the world seems more black and white). The issue is if the boys understood the implications and long term mental-physical damage that their actions could do to themselves, and the 13 year old. I used to punch my sister when I was young-- I KNEW it was wrong but I didn't understand that if I hit her in the right spot I could have killed her, or how these actions could be an underlying cause of anxieties later on in her life. Yes, adults try to explain things to kids and direct them certain ways and away from other things as "good" and "bad" but we as adults we (hopefully) realize that we don't teach these things because we live in that black and white but that these issues are far too complex to explain to them--why something is "good" and something is "bad", that is why we as adults can understand what makes them bad or good and use that to help them to do the "good" and steer them away from the "bad" not just because something inherently right or wrong, but explaining it is something they need realize themselves and is far too complex for a kid/tween to understand. I think i made my point coherent enough?

It feels like some people don't want to learn from these horrible actions and events, but rather; just ignore everyone involved-- lock these disturbed boys away, and tell the younger boy that "justice is served", and go on without understanding what/why this happened and pretend like nothing did happened.

Then in 2 years when something like this happens again we all throw our hands in the air, and say I don't know why this keeps happening...oh well, lock that kid up forever along with the others.

[JJSP]

They're not kids. They're monsters.

If you beat, rape, and repeatedly sodomize another student with a hockey stick or broomhandle, you're a fucking monster. The chances of them being completely normal, unaffected "adults" are miniscule at best - this isn't an isolated incident, this shit went on for two months because these sick bastards enjoyed what they were doing.

Sorry, but you forfeit your rights as a decent human being when you stop being a decent human being. They showed no compassion and no remorse for what they did, nor should they be shown any for their actions.

I'm not the leading advocate of corporal punishment, but these four are the poster children for why parents should keep an eye on their kids and do anything within their power to keep them in line. I don't blame the parents completely, but they and everyone else needs to face the fact that these four are severely damaged individuals and need to be kept away from situations where this sort of thing can happen again.

[GuilewasNK]

2. Kids under the age of 16 (believe it or not the age of consent is not completely arbitrary) brains cannot comprehend the complex issues of sex and especially sexual assault. Their brains literally are not developed enough to understand the meaning they or the other person involved is experiencing. This is why girls 17 and under (sometimes even older) often think that any guy likes them if they fooled around with them or the girl thinks they need to have sex just to make the guy like them. The reason is that usually girls, especially under the age of 16 or 17, are almost incapable of separating sex from relationships and general affection from lust.

Dude, you just contradicted your own comment.

[camoor]

but why on earth would you give special treatment for something like theft but not more severe crimes? why distinguish?

I would submit that you are the one who is still a child and does not understand the situation. The victim is under a life sentence, I'm no psychologist but I'm willing to bet he's going to have emotional scars from this for the rest of his life. The excuse that the perpetrators are under 18 by a few years and therefore are the real victims at the hands of the judicial system hold no water for me.

As an adult I can separate out victims and criminals.

[slidecage]

got to love the people who say the boys should go to jail , but if it was their kid they would be screaming they should be put to death.

got to wonder how many murders you would see if they would take the people on death row and just hang them within 6 months of proving they did it. (got to love how someone can kill someone with 50 people watching then have the balls to say

I did not do it and then get to live in a nice jail cell for 20 years before getting put to death if even at all)


just like the show was on the other night.. two teenagers was throwing rocks off an overpass playing some sort of stupid stripping game.... They have them on camera doing it but then plead they did not do it even though they are saying they are sorry they did it... WTF right there is what is wrong with the legal system.

person kills someone at the point of the sentance the judge hits a button.. floor gives away to a swamp of gators... i think you would see the murder rate fall very quickly. : )

[itachiitachi]

we distinguish juvenile from adult for very good reason, children are still developing, and to arbitrarily throw that out because a particular act is exceptionally offensive is extremely irrational.

These reason juveniles are not usually tried as adult is because there prefrontal cortexes(part of the brain responsible for moral choices, and thinking ahead) are not fully developed(this doesn't happen till the late one's 20). This mean teenagers will tend to make short term rash decisions like "let's steal my parents car", "we don't really need a condom", "I bet I can climb that water tower drunk" and other such stupid decisions young people are famous for. It's not responsible for "Let's anal rape someone until we get caught" that's not teenage stupidity, that's a complete lack of sympathy for others, which is more like psychopathy.

[HowStern]

I would submit that you are the one who is still a child and does not understand the situation. The victim is under a life sentence, I'm no psychologist but I'm willing to bet he's going to have emotional scars from this for the rest of his life. The excuse that the perpetrators are under 18 by a few years and therefore are the real victims at the hands of the judicial system hold no water for me.

As an adult I can separate out victims and criminals.


This. +1

I get the feeling Koggit, and anyone else who believes that since these kids are a couple years younger than 18 they shouldn't be severely punished, does not understand the seriousness of the situation.
Like camoor said the victim got a life sentence. At least these scum bag kids will get a fair trial. The victim did not get any trial in his locker room.

[Koggit]

So it's bloodlust motivating your irrationality. Okay. An eye for an eye. Okay sounds great.

[HowStern]

Wow, you are delusional if that's what you got out of what everyone is saying.

[GuilewasNK]

Wow, you are delusional if that's what you got out of what everyone is saying.

I honestly wouldn't even bother responding to him anymore. I don't know what "logic" he is using, but I seriously hope he never finds himself on a jury.

[fatherofcaitlyn]

I honestly wouldn't even bother responding to him anymore. I don't know what "logic" he is using, but I seriously hope he never finds himself on a jury.

Being on a jury is the safe place in the legal world.

[Friend of Sonic]

Note to self: Next time I want to be an asshole and break the law, give myself the appearance and fake documents that identify me as a 14 year old and have Koggit appointed as a judge for juvenile court.

[gareman]

Would somebody please respond to my arguments....

rather than find one time where I said people under 16 can LITERALLY not comprehend the complex emotions involved with sex and that from this,even when more mature, girls that are under 17 (believe it or not, is also under 16 as well) and sometimes beyond;cannot distinguish between love and lust.

It seems to me that after I make a decent well thought out argument people actually get upset that I am using logic on this issue, and then just mock everyone else who has and are dishonest about everything they think and what we have said.

"fine! just let kids do whatever they want!"

Even though all of you know that is not what Kroggit or I (or anyone else who said things in realm) are saying at all.

As for how much would murder and these things drop, if we got my "badass" "in your face" about publicly murdering citizens. It wouldn't a violent government and judicial system perpetuates a violent society. Its like how kids who grow up in a violent home where hitting and beating is a valid punishment then they more often than not, become violent themselves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyph_DZa_GQ

[itachiitachi]

2. Kids under the age of 16 (believe it or not the age of consent is not completely arbitrary) brains cannot comprehend the complex issues of sex and especially sexual assault.
They knew enough to know it would be more humiliating and painful than a normal beating.



Their brains literally are not developed enough to understand the meaning they or the other person involved is experiencing.
A 14 years brain is developed enough for sympathy(I believe this happens between ages 2-3), and knowing right from wrong, it's not developed enough to always control impulsive action they know are wrong.But raping someone for 2 months is not an impulsive action.


3. While the kids knew it was wrong that is not an issue. I am sure they knew it was wrong, but when your brain isn't fully developed right and wrong is not what is difficult (I would almost argue that is easy as the world seems more black and white). The issue is if the boys understood the implications and long term mental-physical damage that their actions could do to themselves, and the 13 year old. I used to punch my sister when I was young-- I KNEW it was wrong but I didn't understand that if I hit her in the right spot I could have killed her, or how these actions could be an underlying cause of anxieties later on in her life. Yes, adults try to explain things to kids and direct them certain ways and away from other things as "good" and "bad" but we as adults we (hopefully) realize that we don't teach these things because we live in that black and white but that these issues are far too complex to explain to them--why something is "good" and something is "bad", that is why we as adults can understand what makes them bad or good and use that to help them to do the "good" and steer them away from the "bad" not just because something inherently right or wrong, but explaining it is something they need realize themselves and is far too complex for a kid/tween to understand. I think i made my point coherent enough?
They may have not understood that the kid would possible be scared for life, but the were taking the actions to the next level they knew rape was worse than hitting, They probably had some idea how much more severally rape is punished than beating, and it was not an isolated incident where things got out of hand, but ongoing and likely premeditated.

[Koggit]

full circle yet again...

dude...

okay..

gonna be as clear as i can possibly be..

it is your belief that these children hold adult-responsibility for what they've done. okay? nobody can prove one way or the other, nothing's factual, you cannot say "this is justice", you cannot say "they most certainly understood what they did enough to face adult sentencing", none of that is fact, it's your belief and that's that.

now, the only problem with that belief is that if 14 year olds can understand rape and hold adult responsibility for it, then they can understand any crime and hold adult responsibility for it, sexual assault is quite possibly the most complex (morally) of criminal offenses, it is irrational to say these 14 year olds understood rape and are 100% adult responsible for it then turn around tomorrow and claim some 15 year old who stole a car should get juvenile treatment. if 14 year olds are old enough to hold adult responsibility for rape, anyone 14+ holds adult responsibility for any crime.

now if that's your belief and that's why you think they should be tried in adult court, fine, then your argument is either "try everyone 14+ in adult court" or "try everyone in adult court and use a sliding scale for leniency based on age", both of which are valid arguments but not directly applicable to the topic at hand, which is cherry-picking defendants to bear adult responsibility based not on the defendant's class, but rather on the abhorrence of the crime.

[HotShotX]

I'm curious, if the argument for these "kids" innocence was that they did not have a firm grasp of "rape" and "sodomy", and did not understand the full ramifications of their actions, then why wouldn't they keep shoving the hockey stick / broom stick into this poor kid until they either impaled him / ruptured something.

They had to have known what they were doing every time, and did it precise enough with a large/long object that the kid was not gushing blood out of his ass on each occasion, and did not have noticeable bruises on his arms from being held down.

On a side note, what happened to the old days when sick kids would just abuse small animals? Now they're shoving things into the rectums of other kids? What the fuck?

~HotShotX

[Koggit]

i dont think anybody argued that the kids were innocent or shouldn't be punished

[itachiitachi]

you cannot say "they most certainly understood what they did enough to face adult sentencing", none of that is fact, it's your belief and that's that.

Sure I can its called science.(The fact that teenagers don't have devolved prefrontal cortexes is the legal reason for them usually not being tried as an adult, raping some for two months is not explained by an underdeveloped prefrontal cortex.)

but rather on the abhorrence of the crime.
I think most of us are basing it on the fact that it went on for two months which takes way out of the realm of stupid teenager impulsiveness.

[gareman]

They knew enough to know it would be more humiliating and painful than a normal beating.



A 14 years brain is developed enough for sympathy(I believe this happens between ages 2-3), and knowing right from wrong, it's not developed enough to always control impulsive action they know are wrong.But raping someone for 2 months is not an impulsive action.




They can think yea this is wrong and this sucks for this kid but if they have no foresight as to what this will actually do to the boy and themselves in the long term and understand the complexities of what they are doing then that sympathy means nothing more than "this probably sucks a lot worse then when we used to punch him!"

[itachiitachi]

They can think yea this is wrong and this sucks for this kid but if they have no foresight as to what this will actually do to the boy and themselves in the long term and understand the complexities of what they are doing then that sympathy means nothing more than "this probably sucks a lot worse then when we used to punch him!"
Do you think they cared what this will do to him, if before they started the victim was like "this will have lasting reprocutions throughout my adult life" they would have be like "really, oh well then you're free to go".

[Koggit]

Sure I can its called science.(The fact that teenagers don't have devolved prefrontal cortexes is the legal reason for them usually not being tried as an adult, raping some for two months is not explained by an underdeveloped prefrontal cortex.)
ty for making it clear you have absolutely no idea why our legal system treats kids differently

yes, primarily due to an underdeveloped frontal lobe (as i mentioned a few dozen posts ago, i believe), as it controls forethought and thereby capacity for judgment, it's precisely why we treat children differently, it's not as if their frontal lobe lets them 'understand' crime or anything, it influences they way they act, it has an enormous effect on empathy and consideration of consequences, it's precisely why this abhorrent act wasn't shocking to the conscious of their peers who witnessed it and it's precisely why, imo, they should not be treated differently

but, regardless, it's all beyond the scope of my point -- why on earth would you say these children understood what they do so they deserve adult punishment but a juvenile thief doesn't? or how about a kid that gets in fights a lot at school? at my school there were quite a few students who got in weekly fights and were eventually expelled -- they weren't sent to jail for several years as an adult would. why not? by your logic, they understood what they were doing, getting in fights like that, bullying others, why not send them to jail for years like we would an adult? why give them special treatment but not these kids?

I think most of us are basing it on the fact that it went on for two months which takes way out of the realm of stupid teenager impulsiveness.

its not about impulsiveness, that's retarded, impulse has nothing to do with age or our legal treatment of juveniles, we don't give lighter sentence to juvenile car thieves due to impulsiveness... come the fuck on, jesus christ i hate this thread

[gareman]

Do you think they cared what this will do to him, if before they started the victim was like "this will have lasting reprocutions throughout my adult life" they would have be like "really, oh well then you're free to go".


No I don't as I think their ability to "care" was little to none due to their immature brains as argued by both you and I. You seem to not think that should hold up in court and I think it does.

[gareman]

ty for making it clear you have absolutely no idea why our legal system treats kids differently

yes, primarily due to an underdeveloped frontal lobe (as i mentioned a few dozen posts ago, i believe), as it controls forethought and thereby capacity for judgment, it's precisely why we treat children differently, it's not as if their frontal lobe lets them 'understand' crime or anything, it influences they way they act, it has an enormous effect on empathy and consideration of consequences, it's precisely why this abhorrent act wasn't shocking to the conscious of their peers who witnessed it and it's precisely why, imo, they should not be treated differently




That is an interesting point--doesn't it follow from everyone arguing against us that all the kids that witness this over 2months should be tried as adults as well? I mean if someone was raping their daughter repeatedly in front of the mom for two months and she didn't stop it or notify authorities wouldn't the mom as an ADULT she be tried for nearly the same crimes? Since all these 14 year old knew it was wrong and said nothing/did nothing they should be tried as well.

[Koggit]

it doesn't matter what some random guy on a gaming forum thinks, the great legal minds of our nation have determined it does play a role in responsibility for self-action and that because of the underdevelopment a child cannot be held to the same standard as an adult, just as we lower the burden of responsibility and restrict sentencing on the insane and retarded

That is an interesting point--doesn't it follow from everyone arguing against us that all the kids that witness this over 2months should be tried as adults as well? I mean if someone was raping their daughter repeatedly in front of the mom for two months and she didn't stop it or notify authorities would as an ADULT she be tried for nearly the same crimes?

i honestly don't believe any of these children realized the severity of the act, i'd bet even the victim does not yet comprehend the offense, perhaps he does, and if not he surely will one day, but i fully do not believe a kid can understand rape.. it's very complex.. even with adults -- i bet i'd be hard pressed to find an adult who could tell me why sexual assault is a greater offense than assault.. much less a child.. i'd be surprised if 1/1000 14 year olds could tell you "sexual assault is more offensive because. . ."

but yeah, it really doens't even matter if they understand rape, because the point is children have a lesser burden of responsibility and it's lunacy to cherry-pick exceptions for certain acts and excuse others, 14 year olds are either fully responsible for everything or not

[gareman]

it doesn't matter what some random guy on a gaming forum thinks, the great legal minds of our nation have determined it does play a role in responsibility for self-action and that because of the underdevelopment a child cannot be held to the same standard as an adult, just as we lower the burden of responsibility and restrict sentencing on the insane and retarded



i honestly don't believe any of these children realized the severity of the act, i'd bet even the victim does not yet comprehend the offense, perhaps he does, and if not he surely will one day, but i fully do not believe a kid can understand rape.. it's very complex.. even with adults -- i bet i'd be hard pressed to find an adult who could tell me why sexual assault is a greater offense than assault.. much less a child.. i'd be surprised if 1/1000 14 year olds could tell you "sexual assault is more offensive because. . ."
if random gaming forum guy had his way apparently 50% of this school's (perhaps more--rumors spread) student body would be on trial as adults for not stopping this rape or notifying authorities.

[itachiitachi]

yes, primarily due to an underdeveloped frontal lobe (as i mentioned a few dozen posts ago, i believe), as it controls forethought and thereby capacity for judgment, it's precisely why we treat children differently, it's not as if their frontal lobe lets them 'understand' crime or anything,
No it's not they defiantly knew what they where doing was wrong

it influences they way they act, it has an enormous effect on empathy and consideration of consequences

Yes it basically prevents you from doing something you want to do right now because of social/long term benefits(aka suppressing impulsiveness). Having an underdeveloped one doesn't make you come up with the idea of anally raping someone, or see it as desirable.(personally, not matter how mad I've been up someone, did I ever think of anal rape)

but, regardless, it's all beyond the scope of my point -- why on earth would you say these children understood what they do so they deserve adult punishment but a juvenile thief doesn't? or how about a kid that gets in fights a lot at school? at my school there were quite a few students who got in weekly fights and were eventually expelled -- they weren't sent to jail for several years as an adult would. why not? by your logic, they understood what they were doing, getting in fights like that, bullying others, why not send them to jail for years like we would an adult? Fights are not usually premeditated, they are impulsive. If a teenager did something like bring a weapon to school specifically to use in a fight, then they should be put on trial.



its not about impulsiveness, that's retarded, impulse has nothing to do with age or our legal treatment of juveniles, we don't give lighter sentence to juvenile car thieves due to impulsiveness... come the fuck on, jesus christ i hate this thread
Actully I knew some kids who got caught stealing cars/breaking into houses, while 3 of the kids (including their leader) did this impulsivly and all got community service, a 4th who planned the breakins out went to jail.

[HowStern]

Absolutely anyone who knew this was going on to the extent it was and failed to report should 100% be charged as an accessory.

That is how you prevent this from happening again. That is how you get people to speak up next time, by punishing those who didn't.

[Friend of Sonic]

I wish Koggit and Gareman would leave the thread so that we could all unanimously agree, much like a jury, that shoving hockey sticks and brooms up anus(s) (Is the plural forum "Anai"?) is wrong and anyone who witnesses such an event and does not say anything is also guilty of wrongdoing. It's nothing against Koggit and Garemen personally, I usually like to read what they have to say.

[Koggit]

myke and foc agreed too, we've been split about 50/50, it's just they were smarter than me -- smart enough not to waste their time with this crap.. the opposition is more vocal but that doesn't make you a majority

[Friend of Sonic]

I think you tarnished-- not lose, mind you-- but tarnished your ability to call the rest of us stupid when you said that six months in Juvy and one year of probation would not be too lenient for the teens.

[camoor]

it doesn't matter what some random guy on a gaming forum thinks, the great legal minds of our nation have determined it does play a role in responsibility for self-action and that because of the underdevelopment a child cannot be held to the same standard as an adult, just as we lower the burden of responsibility and restrict sentencing on the insane and retarded

Have they now. Like it or not, you're now quoted so we can all evaluate your words later in the light of the eventual outcome.

myke and foc agreed too, we've been split about 50/50, it's just they were smarter than me -- smart enough not to waste their time with this crap.. the opposition is more vocal but that doesn't make you a majority

Unless I missed it Myke's main point was that the accused are minors and even taking that into account their confession was not recorded according to Miranda - meaning that this whole case could turn out to be an American variation of George Archer-Shee. I happen to be sympathetic to this point - the one thing that the accused actually deserve is their day in court at the hands of a fair and impartial jury, this is a serious crime and any official confession should either come forward unsolicited or at the hands of a trained officer of the law.

[Xevious]

That is one seriously fucked up school if all those kids witnessed that and no one said a thing.

[rickonker]

Another issue here is why stuff like this happens so much in the first place: the prison-like school system.

[willardhaven]

Maybe I watch too much Law & Order, but my first hunch was that a teacher abusing the kid and that the boys were coerced into confessing.

[gareman]

I wish Koggit and Gareman would leave the thread so that we could all unanimously agree, much like a jury, that shoving hockey sticks and brooms up anus(s) (Is the plural forum "Anai"?) is wrong and anyone who witnesses such an event and does not say anything is also guilty of wrongdoing. It's nothing against Koggit and Garemen personally, I usually like to read what they have to say.


I never said anyone was innocent.

[davo1224]

How exactly are they putting a hockey stick in there?

[naes]

They're not children. They're teenagers. They know what is right and what is wrong.

[Friend of Sonic]

Well, true, Gareman. The arguement here is how they should be held accountable for their clearly wrong actions.

I wrote my post in haste, dear friend.

[gareman]

Well, true, Gareman. The arguement here is how they should be held accountable for their clearly wrong actions.

I wrote my post in haste, dear friend.


I think they are guilty and should be evaluated extensively and be seen as juvenile's...because this is a juvenile crime (see what I did there) they were sticking hockey sticks and other things a young presumably nerdier kid's ass.
Slight joking aside

Its a horrible crime but these kids do not need to thrown in jail for years grow up in the jail system being know by cell-mates as child molesters, with little to no treatment then released back in to society labeled sex offenders...that is a horrible idea.

[Darrith]

Hard to believe anyone is actually sticking up for these kids. Sure they're not technically adults yet, but I certainly knew what I was doing at that age and that I'd be held responsible for my actions as well.

This is just sick. For two months, premeditated and repeatedly? It wasn't like they just screwed up once and then never did it again; they kept on and showed no remorse until they were caught.

If I was the presiding judge I doubt I could find it in myself to sentence them to 120 years, but I certainly wouldn't give them a free pass because of their age either. I hope the kid recovers from this eventually.

[Friend of Sonic]

They are sex offenders. Aren't they? Would anyone's opinion be changed if they got away with this, for say, a year? I am curious if anyone's opinion of how these kids should be sentenced is swayed by the relative "short" period of two months.

[Koggit]

bullies often bully indefinitely, i don't see how that makes a difference

[HowStern]

It makes a difference because it shows it is not a one time impulsive on the fly decision.

[Friend of Sonic]

It should change your opinion on how long these boys should be sentenced for their punishment, at least, no? Since it's the same crime, except going on for an additional 10 months.

[Koggit]

i'm glad you're saying "opinion" and not harping on about justice like others did for 3 pages.


you're right that it'd affect my sentencing if sentencing these kids were my responsibility, but i'm saying it doesn't make any difference at all in the juvenile/adult discussion.

[Friend of Sonic]

Is there an amount of time where you'd snap in anger, say "Fuck it, these kids were doing it for ___ years, sentence them as adults."
I am curious if there is an applicable number of years for your opinion to sway to treating them as adults. 2? 4? Or would it literally have to be all the way until they become adults and they can become fully responsible for their actions?

[Koggit]

i would never, under any circumstance, say that we should pretend one class is another just so that we can give them the desired treatment. they could rape a hundred people and murder them all, they should still be held to the same standard as other people of their class (14 year olds).

if consensus was that they deserve harsher punishment than legislation allows, which i would certainly agree with, then the argument should be for changing the legislation to allow for harsher punishment of their class. the solution is not to just pretend they're adults. it's nonsense. with such special cases it completely ruins the whole point of juvenile court and maximum sentences for juveniles. if people believe some juveniles 'deserve' higher sentencing, then the maximum should be higher. never should class distinction be made based on anything other than class.

[Friend of Sonic]

Do you disagree with all of the cases of minors being charged as adults?

[Koggit]

i don't know if i'd go that far, but i can comfortably say i disagree with all cases of 14 year olds being treated as if they were adults.

age is a sliding scale, i'm not gonna say someone born 17.999 years ago should be treated different than someone born 18.001 years ago... but that's a very separate issue from differentiating based on the crime.

[depascal22]

14 seems old enough to know that this was completely wrong and nasty.

[davo1224]

Exactly. Maybe saddling them with the label of sex offender for their entire lives is a bit extreme even though that's it exactly what happened, but they should definitely be tried as adults with something like "aggravated assault" or something having to do with premeditated harm.