Fans boycotting Left4Dead 2

[plasticbathmonki]

http://pc.ign.com/articles/992/992283p1.html

UK, June 8, 2009 - Fans of 2008 first-person smash Left 4 Dead (http://pc.ign.com/objects/818/818215.html) have reacted strongly to last week's news of a sequel, calling for a boycott to the new game in response to Valve's perceived lack of commitment to the original game.

At the time of writing some 15,000 fans have registered their disdain on a Steam Community Group (http://steamcommunity.com/groups/L4D2boycott), (thanks, videogaming24/7 (http://www.vg247.com/2009/06/06/protest-group-forms-over-left-4-dead-2-has-11002-members/)) asking that 'Left 4 Dead 2 (http://pc.ign.com/objects/143/14352245.html) not be released as a stand-alone, full-priced sequel but as either a free update to Left 4 Dead or an expansion with full compatibility with basic Left 4 Dead owners.'

The news of a sequel for Left 4 Dead goes against Valve's typical practice, wherein titles are often in gestation for long periods and given extensive post-release support.

Valve's VP of Marketing Doug Lombardi reacted to the news in an interview late last week, telling RockPaperShotgun, (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/06/04/valve-on-l4d2-trust-us-a-little-bit/) 'There's more content coming for Left 4 Dead in the fairly near term, that I think will sort of add to this picture and hopefully change some people's opinions of what's happening right now.'

Left 4 Dead was one of 2008's highlights, earning a 9.2 when reviewed back in November. (http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/930/930754p1.html) The sequel relocates the action to the Deep South, as well as adding frying pans and chainsaws into the mix - which all sounds like an awful lot of fun. (http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/988/988161p1.html)

Personally, I have no problem with Valve selling L4D2 simply because I enjoyed L4D enough to know that I got my money's worth out of it. But because both Mills Lane and I like a good clean fight, I thought I'd post it here to get a good debate going.

Here is the boycott group on steam. Over 17,000 members already:
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/L4D2boycott?action=join

[Reality's Fringe]

So let's recap:

Valve takes a long time to produce games,people bitch.
Valve releases a quick sequel to one of its most popular releases,people bitch.

"Gamers" are such fucking Primadonnas. They always want a ton a free stuff, even though for their $50 they got HUNDREDS of hours of entertainment.

[Sc4rfac3]

i'm still buying L4D2. L4D was a great a game and this one looks even better. I really dont understand all the hurt feelings over this.

[ChernobylCow]

Oh, I thought the boycott was going to be about another "zombie" game that gives you an excuse to slay black people en masse. Fucking New Orleans? I am from Texas and I know if my friend from Rochester saw me killing "zombies" in Louisiana all of his secessionist fears would be confirmed.

In defense of Valve's choice of setting, I do believe that for a while New Orleans easily had a post-apocalyptic thing going on without any sort of zombie holocaust. I'm not sure that makes it PC.

[SynGamer]

I got the Left 4 Dead Game of the Year edition two days before they announced L4D2. Just unloaded it on Goozex (phew!).

[guinaevere]

If, as an existing owner of Left 4 Dead, if I had to pay more for the additional content on the GotY edition, I'd be a little miffed. But I dont.


I'm trying to understand why any one is thinking they're entitled to a free copy of L4D2 when it comes out. But I dont.

[Sir_Fragalot]

I have NO problem with L4D 2 (in fact it is my most anticipated game of 09), but I will be kinda pissed if I have to launch L4D1 to play those maps. If they made it where Valve sees you owns L4D1 and has the ability to play LFD1 maps on LFD2, I would be happy.

[Hydro2Oxide]

I'm in that Steam Group thanks to this article bringing it to my attention.

Before you bitch at me, read all the things in that steam group. I don't expect it to be free, I expect to get what I payed for which is consistent content additions. And with this coming out, it fucks over the people who bought the game on that hope. It also splits the community like Lost Planet did. All I'm asking for is make it heavily discounted to those who already own L4D.

This also goes against everything Valve has ever done which blows my mind. I didn't expect L4D to become the next Madden or Call of Duty.

[Salamando3000]

Should it be free? No. There's a lot of work that seems to be going into it. I'm just curious as to how feasible an expansion pack version would be. Considering how closely the two are being released, I can't imagine there being any system overhauls. As a PC gamer, it just seems odd that it's a standalone.

[ToadallyAwesome]

It is not different enough to warrant a new and separate game (especially for $60). When this is released will there only be 2 multiplayer maps as well?

This honestly seems like it would work best as a reasonably priced expansion so you do not lose the original maps/characters. If it has 4 new maps/new melee weapons/etc - I would easily pay $20 for it.

[help1]

Can you edit the OP? These people boycotting the game aren't "fans."

[Sir_Fragalot]

Now that I think of it they kinda backed themselves into a hole, I mean unlike a TF2 map which is just a map they have to make 4 maps with the AI director, add in Versus and survival. That's a ton of more work than just a map.

I think they wont throw free content out just because of the work involved. I also believe they are calling it L4D 2 because the content is probably too big as x-box live downloads and they can't really do expansions on the 360 like a PC can.

I think if there was no 360 version then Valve would probably make it cheaper but because they can charge $60 on it for the 360 and make money, well... sigh.

[fcw3]

Funny. No one b*tches when the annual Madden Train shows up at the station. It ends up being a top selling game with its yearly update. Now EA is doing the same thing w/L4d and suddenly it is a federal case ?

Sheesh. Why would anyone be surprised ?

[xycury]

Can you edit the OP? These people boycotting the game aren't "fans."


Probably the best thing I've read ^^^

I'd be all over sequels, means the game is still going, hopefully better priced, but it's good news that they are still continuing it.

If only they would release an SDK...

[Ryukahn]

These boycotters are hilarious. While they make several valid points in their 'mission statement' (namely worried the community will be either split or the first game will become obsolete when 2 hits), they utterly fail when they even suggest the possibility of the L4D2 content being free. Not to mention the fact that the game doesn't have a lot of info out on it yet. It should really be more a list of concerns or whatnot instead of a boycott based on assumptions that may or may not be true.

[Lone_Prodigy]

I definitely won't buy L4D2 until it's $20-30. Until then, I'll be playing L4D1 and messing with the SDK.

[crystalklear64]

Meh. Don't care. I'll be buying it when its 50% off.

[Kapwanil]

If I had a nickel for every time a publisher or developer made claims about their games that they simply could not muster (release dates, content, add-ons, sequels, translations, bug fixes, customer support, etc.) since the days of the Atari 2600 I could buy L4D2 about five times over (assuming $59.99 MSRP).

If I were to base it solely on Molyneux and Working Designs, I could probably buy a copy from those nickels alone.

But such is life. Expectations are dashed every day. It's not fun but, at least in this case, it certainly isn't the end of the world.

[Kaijufan]

Funny. No one b*tches when the annual Madden Train shows up at the station. It ends up being a top selling game with its yearly update. Now EA is doing the same thing w/L4d and suddenly it is a federal case ?

Sheesh. Why would anyone be surprised ?
Valve is an independent company and EA doesn't have any influence over them, they are just their retail distribution partner.

I think most people are mad because Gabe Newell said (http://www.videogamer.com/news/valve_details_post_left_4_dead_launch_plans.html)t hat they would go the TF2 lots of free content route with Left 4 Dead and they didn't really do that. Though apparently they are going to announce new content for L4D soon.

I imagine that Valve will be cool and give people who already have Left 4 Dead on their Steam account a discount on L4D2.

[Richard Longfellow]

Good Lord college kids have too much spare time.

[opterasis]

I got the Left 4 Dead Game of the Year edition two days before they announced L4D2. Just unloaded it on Goozex (phew!).

lolwut?

[Frogurt.man]

It should really be more a list of concerns or whatnot instead of a boycott based on assumptions that may or may not be true.

A Left4Dead2 Concerns List just doesn't have the oomph to get your point across.

Threaten a boycott and then even the corporate suits might have to take a look at the community complaints for fear of losing da munie$.

[Kaijufan]

Good Lord college kids have too much spare time.
Yeah it really does take a long time to make or join a Steam group.

[Kaijufan]

A Left4Dead2 Concerns List just doesn't have the oomph to get your point across.

Threaten a boycott and then even the corporate suits might have to take a look at the community complaints for fear of losing da munie$.

Valve seems to be one of the few companies that really listens to their fans. I have a feeling they understand what people are feeling and will do something about it.

[Hydro2Oxide]

What a lot of people seem to be missing in this thread is:

A) This isn't just any company, this is Valve. You know, those people who still update games made in 2004?
B) Not everyone expects it to be free, only the really loud obnoxious people. Again, read the statements in the steam group.
C) They said they would continue to support it like TF2 and to the guy who said lots of developers don't fulfill promises, refer to point A.

@Ryu, for a game that was just announced they've shown ~2 levels, a bunch of new weapons, all of the synopsis, 1 of the 3 new SI, talked about pretty much all the additions and design goals (I could go on but I won't) That's a hell of a lot more than most people release. Not to mention they made all this in ~9 months, they probably don't have much more to announce, only to show.

[PhrostByte]

Looks like I'm the only one who didn't like Left 4 Dead.

[KingDox]

Yeah, I didn't by L4D at launch since the demo didn't impress me and I knew the content in the game was limited. Then the price droped down to 30 bucks durring a sale and I said "that's a good, price plus Valve always puts out tons of extra stuff with their games post release".

Well that doesn't look like its the case any more. So I can see why people are mad.

All I know is I won't be buying L4D2 for anything more then 10 bucks. It looks like more of the same, and don't have any clue how they plan on having the game be as sucessful as the first one with all the negative buzz. Just like DRM big companies don't have a clue what the fans want untill they start really bitching. I'm glad they are all bitching.

[Ryukahn]

What a lot of people seem to be missing in this thread is:

A) This isn't just any company, this is Valve. You know, those people who still update games made in 2004?
B) Not everyone expects it to be free, only the really loud obnoxious people. Again, read the statements in the steam group.
C) They said they would continue to support it like TF2 and to the guy who said lots of developers don't fulfill promises, refer to point A.

A) They've said they will keep updating L4D, yet people are still complaining. Do they have a magic ball that tells them they won't?
B) I read the statements in the steam group and they have plain as day that they expect it all to either be free or at least cheaper than $50.
C) Again, why do people assume that they won't support it?


@Ryu, for a game that was just announced they've shown ~2 levels, a bunch of new weapons, all of the synopsis, 1 of the 3 new SI, talked about pretty much all the additions and design goals (I could go on but I won't) That's a hell of a lot more than most people release. Not to mention they made all this in ~9 months, they probably don't have much more to announce, only to show.

If you could go on, then it sounds like there is a lot of content coming in L4D2, thus I don't see what the problem is. My statement about assuming things had to do with their main gripe that the community is going to suffer in L4D without any knowledge about any possible link between the 2 games to prevent this from happening and also that they won't do any updates for L4D when they have no idea if they will or not. I was not referring to the new content at all. The preview I read on IGN said they were considering putting all of the content from L4D on the L4D2 disc, which makes me believe they are trying to keep the community together. I'm more interested in how that is going to work, if it makes it in, more than anything else at this point.

[georox]

So let's recap:

Valve takes a long time to produce games,people bitch.
Valve releases a quick sequel to one of its most popular releases,people bitch.

"Gamers" are such fucking Primadonnas. They always want a ton a free stuff, even though for their $50 they got HUNDREDS of hours of entertainment.

This. I have no idea how many hours L4D 1 sucked in of my life, but it's too many. I will hate to see how many 2 will suck up. I more than got my moneys worth, hell, I bought it on PC and 360 I got so much out of it, and I don't regret either, even with the sequel.

[bardockkun]

I Just wonder how people would react if each of the five new scenarios in L4D2 were released sepreatly for $10 each as DLC for L4D1. Would we still be complaining on how Valve is no longer being Valve or would we applaud that they're continuing to support their games through such means?

[dsrtstorm]

Can you edit the OP? These people boycotting the game aren't "fans."

Don't have to be a fan to realize how stupid it is when Valve personally said they were going to expand the first game, only to come out and release an entirely new game. Like say compared to Team Fortress 2, which gets free updates up to this day after its release. Instead they are telling people to fork over even more cash for minor upgrades.

Yeah, guess only a fan would be stupid enough not to see this.

[seanr1221]

Just buy it when it drops in price. Problem solved, no bitching needed.

[xycury]

Don't have to be a fan to realize how stupid it is when Valve personally said they were going to expand the first game, only to come out and release an entirely new game. Like say compared to Team Fortress 2, which gets free updates up to this day after its release. Instead they are telling people to fork over even more cash for minor upgrades.

Yeah, guess only a fan would be stupid enough not to see this.


I'm sorry but all the "updates" to TF2 are mainly balances and fixes... not content.

L4D2 will come with content. That's why it's a sequel and not a free DLC or even expansion.

Would love it to be a standalone expansion at best... give us a discount for being owners of the first.

Really I won't get this till 50% off anyways... when they have a sale. Why wouldn't anyone else???

[dyeknom]

I'm sorry but all the "updates" to TF2 are mainly balances and fixes... not content.


Im sorry, but you are 100% wrong on this. Initially they were minor tweaks, but they've added maps, class upgrades and achievements. That's content, no matter how you swing it.

[Hydro2Oxide]

Im sorry, but you are 100% wrong on this. Initially they were minor tweaks, but they've added maps, class upgrades and achievements. That's content, no matter how you swing it.

Don't forget three new game modes, 100's of extra dialogue lines, friggin' HATS!

This is why I'm complaining about L4D2. The free updates TF2 have gotten seem about on par (Maybe a bit less) of what L4D2 is getting, on top of the fact that I'll have spent $100 dollars on L4D and 10 on TF2 (Orange Box)

I'm not slapping Valve on the wrist for raising expectations due to TF2, it's mostly the fact that TF2 is considerably cheaper than L4D and that there is no new engine in L4D2.

[TC]

So let's recap:Valve takes a long time to produce games,people bitch.
Valve releases a quick sequel to one of its most popular releases,people bitch.

:applause: I'd rather have them bring out a sequel every year or so and have the choice not to buy it instead of waiting 3-5 years for something.

Looks like I'm the only one who didn't like Left 4 Dead.

Its the only game that ever gave me motion sickeness. Couldn't play it for more than a few minutes.

[draven1089]

ok so here is why I'm pissed about the L4D2 treatment. We just recently got all 4 boards for vs. and they had just released the GOTY edition. I feel kinda cheated even tho I got my copy of L4d pretty early on. I mean give L4d some more DLC. That's really my biggest issue with this. I mean one year later and we have a sequal to a game that was just recently completed. I will also say that I'll more then likly end up picking up l4d2 but not until it's around the $20 mark.

[dyeknom]

Don't forget three new game modes, 100's of extra dialogue lines, friggin' HATS!

This is why I'm complaining about L4D2. The free updates TF2 have gotten seem about on par (Maybe a bit less) of what L4D2 is getting, on top of the fact that I'll have spent $100 dollars on L4D and 10 on TF2 (Orange Box)

I'm not slapping Valve on the wrist for raising expectations due to TF2, it's mostly the fact that TF2 is considerably cheaper than L4D and that there is no new engine in L4D2.

I never thought L4D was anything special, anyway. I also hate TF2, but there's no denying it that TF2's free updates are extremely impressive. L4D2 early impressions appear to be a clear case of the cash-ins. It's not done, so there is probably plenty of new things that merit a new game, but nobody will find out until some real hands-on test runs. I personally felt that L4D never really deserved the 50-60$ price tag that it received, either.... but that's just me.

[UjnHunter]

Somebody call the Waaahhmbulance! I'll be playing L4D2 and having fun thanks! Maybe not at launch... but after the first price drop? Sign me up!

[guinaevere]

It is not different enough to warrant a new and separate game (especially for $60).So don't buy it till its cheap enough for you to justify the purchase, or dont buy it at all.

:applause: I'd rather have them bring out a sequel every year or so and have the choice not to buy it instead of waiting 3-5 years for something.

Its the only game that ever gave me motion sickeness. Couldn't play it for more than a few minutes.If it gives you motion sickness and you can't play it, why would you be interested in sequals?

[xycury]

Im sorry, but you are 100% wrong on this. Initially they were minor tweaks, but they've added maps, class upgrades and achievements. That's content, no matter how you swing it.

They also released an SDK for TF2... have they done that for L4D?

Maps are free, not content specific, because of the SDK.

Class upgrades they could have charged for, but didn't, still, a minor upgrade.

And achivements?!? You gotta be friggin kidding....


I would guess that the AI Director is nothing then? I'd assume that Vavle had already tried to see if they could roll this out? couldn't so scraped it for L4D2?

Benefit of the doubt would be helpful.... it's not even out yet, nor near any release of notes by Vavle themselves.

I would cry foul for no SDK, but maybe it won't work for L4D2 which will be stupid.

Plus what's the argument here...people paid $50, didn't think they got $50 worth, bitch and moan because Valve is making another $50 product.

That little piggy went whaa whaa whaa all the way home.

Personally I wanted L4D, but waited till it dropped to $25, it was easly worth that, and the release of the rest of the campaings vs, and survival mode completes it, now only if they can get an SDK, we'd be all set.


Final Thought... or question then thought: Are we seeing this on the console side or PC? It might be the fact that there is a console side that they could be releasing a sequel. Far easier to incorporate new things to a solid medium. I don't own one so I will stop there, but maybe we'd see a different path for L4D2 if the console version did not exist.

[itachiitachi]

I can understand the outrage, the game isn't even a year old they are planning a full price sequel. I haven't played L4D but it seems like there is still plenty of value to be had that wont be realized if they release on early squeal. I agree they should release a super update for $20-$40 dollars.

[AceSXE]

I'm in that Steam Group thanks to this article bringing it to my attention.

Before you bitch at me, read all the things in that steam group. I don't expect it to be free, I expect to get what I payed for which is consistent content additions. And with this coming out, it fucks over the people who bought the game on that hope. It also splits the community like Lost Planet did. All I'm asking for is make it heavily discounted to those who already own L4D.

This also goes against everything Valve has ever done which blows my mind. I didn't expect L4D to become the next Madden or Call of Duty.

I dont know because I havent followed it past this article, but your saying you expected to get what you payed for and consistent content additions. But were consistent content additions promised to you upon buying the game? Again I am asking because I don't know. But if you just assumed you were going to get that, can't really blame the developer here can you.

Eh PS: When did we start buying games feeling like we are owed extra content, all that is promised to us is the product we receive when we pay, right?

[cannibalgirl]

As long as people are willing to pay, which they are, of course Valve is going to make a speedy sequel and of course charge full price for it. I'm willing to pay for it and even happy to, since L4D was worth it.

[Hydro2Oxide]

I dont know because I havent followed it past this article, but your saying you expected to get what you payed for and consistent content additions. But were consistent content additions promised to you upon buying the game? Again I am asking because I don't know. But if you just assumed you were going to get that, can't really blame the developer here can you.

Eh PS: When did we start buying games feeling like we are owed extra content, all that is promised to us is the product we receive when we pay, right?

Somewhere in this thread someone has the link but to paraphrase, one of the developers said how much they liked the update formula TF2 has and that they wanted to go the same course with L4D.

We are owed it when we are lured in to buying a game because of it.

EDIT: Just noticed this post

They also released an SDK for TF2... have they done that for L4D?

Maps are free, not content specific, because of the SDK.

Class upgrades they could have charged for, but didn't, still, a minor upgrade.

And achivements?!? You gotta be friggin kidding....


I would guess that the AI Director is nothing then? I'd assume that Vavle had already tried to see if they could roll this out? couldn't so scraped it for L4D2?

Benefit of the doubt would be helpful.... it's not even out yet, nor near any release of notes by Vavle themselves.

I would cry foul for no SDK, but maybe it won't work for L4D2 which will be stupid.

Plus what's the argument here...people paid $50, didn't think they got $50 worth, bitch and moan because Valve is making another $50 product.

That little piggy went whaa whaa whaa all the way home.

Personally I wanted L4D, but waited till it dropped to $25, it was easly worth that, and the release of the rest of the campaings vs, and survival mode completes it, now only if they can get an SDK, we'd be all set.


Final Thought... or question then thought: Are we seeing this on the console side or PC? It might be the fact that there is a console side that they could be releasing a sequel. Far easier to incorporate new things to a solid medium. I don't own one so I will stop there, but maybe we'd see a different path for L4D2 if the console version did not exist.

Again, TF2 has had more than just maps and weapons. The extra game modes are a big deal because they required revisions of Hammer, new VO lines, new HUD work, tons of coding, modeling, texture work etc. so don't downplay what the additions have been to TF2.

As you point out yourself though, seems like a lot of things in here are things that couldn't be done by the expected time of L4D1 and are being put in to this whcih is why it shouldn't be a whole new game, it should be DLC or updates. I'll give you that we can't be 100% sure about anything until closer to release and this may be very knee-jerk reactionish but it still seems totally out of character.

As for your comment/question, this also wouldn't surprise me. Not to go all PC elitist on everyone but console ports of PC games generally cause the PC counterpart to suffer. This may be one of those cases much like I imagine it will be with Crysis 2. I don't blame the developers though, the console is the cashcow at the moment.

[plasticbathmonki]

Valve's response, plus some facts I didn't know about L4D2, but perhaps I'm just ill informed.

Amid protests, Valve's Chet Faliszek says game is "a single, cohesive thing."



The announcement of Left 4 Dead 2 (http://www.1up.com/do/gameOverview?cId=3171224) following so closely after the first game has certainly had people talking. Steam members quickly started a boycott group (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3174667), which already has over 17,000 members promising not to buy the game. But Valve has been consistent in claiming that the sequel isn't simply an attempt at quick cash, and rather a large upgrade from the first game that couldn't be done via downloadable content. Valve's Chet Faliszek told (http://www.videogamer.com/news/valve_and_lsquo_ton_and_rsquo_of_content_makes_l4d 2_too_big_to_be_dlc.html) Videogamer.com that the project was originally called "this big thing," and that the sheer amount of content simply couldn't be handled by giving it out in small doses. "It was like, OK, this is big enough that this isn't DLC, we're not going to be able to leak it out," he said, "it's a cohesive, single thing. It's Left 4 Dead 2. Our focus is always on what we're putting in the box, put as much as we can in the box. With the five campaigns, all of them out of the box, playable Versus, co-op, Survival and the new mode, there's just a ton of content in there." He went on to state that the original game won't be abandoned, saying they "still aren't done with it" and have updates coming.
Finally, Faliszek addressed the fear that Left 4 Dead will become a franchise with annual iterations. "We do it once in a year and everyone's like, oh my God! Let's do this one," he said. "Let's worry about this and then we'll see." Obviously that's not an outright denial of annual iterations, but it sounds like they're committed to only making sequels when they're worthwhile.

[Dead of Knight]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQe4tlsfRbY
I'm a sucker for these videos.

[Hydro2Oxide]

Yeah, that sums it up for me :applause:

[Tsukento]

Half-Life 2 has episodes that weren't released as DLC for the main game, yet no one complained.

People keep using TF2 as an example of receiving updates, but even that's a poor example because TF2 and L4D are NOT similar titles. Yeah, they both are online FPS', but that's where the similarities end there. Especially when L4D is also a single player title and a co-op storymode title, aside from offering a versus mode.

Honestly, they're mostly bitching because they're so accustomed to getting everything in the form of free DLC, when this is nothing new to console gamers. They're also forgetting that they're supporting the 360 and it'd be a stretch to put it as DLC on the console as well as making it free, seeing as MS would likely step in and say "This is too big a change. We want money for this."

[blitz6speed]

I think valve got their ego inflated and thought they could do whatever they pleased. Glad its backfiring on them.

[Hydro2Oxide]

But Tsu, here's the difference. Half-Life 2: Ep1 was $20 at release. L4D is 2.5 times that. But I'll give you that Episode one was one of Valve's weaker titles.

Episode 2 on the other hand is a whole different story. Alone it was either 20 or 30 (10 with the Orange Box) I can't remember. However, it overhauled the source engine with motion blur, soft particles, dynamic lighting, the third iteration of their face modeler, and one hell of a single player experience.

[Lone_Prodigy]

I posted this on the 360 board:

Even if Valve continued to support L4D1, all the attention will be on L4D2. The simple fact that it's a sequel means it's better than the first one (weather effects, more weapons, new SI, new game mode), and who wants to play an inferior, older game? Yes it may still retain the hardcore community ala CS 1.6/CoD2/etc., but L4D is not a "hard" game by any means (it's really random), and when you only have expert players on L4D1, that drives away new players.

So unless you love the original four or want to spend a lot of time with mods, then yes L4D1 will continue to thrive. Otherwise, everyone's jumping to L4D2 come November.

[diddy310]

17,000 of those people signed, 16,500 of them will buy the game anyway when it comes out

[xycury]

I posted this on the 360 board:

Even if Valve continued to support L4D1, all the attention will be on L4D2. The simple fact that it's a sequel means it's better than the first one (weather effects, more weapons, new SI, new game mode), and who wants to play an inferior, older game? Yes it may still retain the hardcore community ala CS 1.6/CoD2/etc., but L4D is not a "hard" game by any means (it's really random), and when you only have expert players on L4D1, that drives away new players.

So unless you love the original four or want to spend a lot of time with mods, then yes L4D1 will continue to thrive. Otherwise, everyone's jumping to L4D2 come November.


I think what we got here is a seperation of PC vs Console.

the above post references CS and COD2... while I think the rest of the crowd is mainly bitching on the Console side of things.

I think if they are really throwing that much into it, L4D2 will be better than L4D, thus we'd WANT to go that way anyways.

Again sucks for everyone that didn't get it cheap... but hey... you obviously justified the payment.

L4D is a new IP and should be treated differently, not comparing it to TF2.

I think we can look at UT04 as a great example of everlasting, even now it's trumping UT3 which has been re-released.

Why? because of the home user created content, by what? Epics/Atari's SDK that's easy to create maps.

I think if we can get an SDK, that works on both console and PC, then alot of the bitching will end.

Afterall, I think of L4D as Map/Users/AI Director... that's it. Otherwise it's just a FPS.

[Tsukento]

Again sucks for everyone that didn't get it cheap... but hey... you obviously justified the payment.
Honestly, I'm laughing at the people paying for the Game of the Year editions. You're actually paying $10 more for what's basically free DLC with the normal versions.

Regular L4D on PC - $29.99
Regular L4D on 360 - $49.99

GotY L4D on PC - $39.99
GotY L4D on 360 - $59.99

Seriously, the only things in the GotY editions that aren't in the regular ones are all of the updated gameplay and Survival mode; all of which can easily be obtained by patching and downloading.

[The Color Chris]

That video is awesome

[bigdaddybruce44]

So let's recap:

Valve takes a long time to produce games,people bitch.
Valve releases a quick sequel to one of its most popular releases,people bitch.

"Gamers" are such fucking Primadonnas. They always want a ton a free stuff, even though for their $50 they got HUNDREDS of hours of entertainment.

Topic should have been closed right after that. I never really got into L4D, but damn, I know people have sunk a ton of time into it. That should be the end of the discussion. They released a game that kept people entertained for a long, long time, but now the "fans" (my ass) want the sequel to be free? Go fuck yourself.

[TC]

If it gives you motion sickness and you can't play it, why would you be interested in sequals?

Was referring other Valve follow ups or sequels in general.

[Raconteur]

Bunch of crybabies.

I'll be playing the updated L4D, enjoying it while the " whinny fans" are sitting there crying about it. :P

Deals are always online, it'll be $40 on the net somewhere, and that's worth it for me.

[Blackout]

I'll be playing the original. I'll get the second one when it's cheap. It's not worth full price to me.

[evanft]

I agree with everything said by the boycotters. This is bullshit.

[Salamando3000]

I think what we got here is a seperation of PC vs Console.

This is the issue here. I'm willing to bet a large number of people okay with this change play it on the 360, where their no stranger to the yearly sequel. However, put on your PC hats for a moment. In the PC-World, this type of stuff has never flown. For smaller additions (and even some big ones), we're quite accustomed to free content packs. For larger ones, that's what expansion packs were designed for. Entirely new games? That is just a ludicrous concept. Can anyone really name any other PC games that follow a new game after one year concept?

Now, I can understand why they need to do a Left 4 Dead 2 on the 360. With the filesize limits on both DLC and Patches, it would be near-impossible. On the PC-side of things, what's preventing them from doing limited content patches and/or an expansion pack? That's all I really want to know.

[kainzero]

i remember the good old days when people would protest with their wallets and not with their mouths.

[benjamouth]

i remember the good old days when people would protest with their wallets and not with their mouths.

:applause:

[msdmoney]

It seems like a lot of people have misguided expectations.

I can understand the concerns over splitting the community, but I don't understand peoples expectation that Valve is somehow obligated to continue providing free content, or the implication that it was somehow part of the deal when they bought the first game. Purchase games at the price you feel is fair for the content available at the time of purchase (with obvious exceptions for games based on user generated content like Little Big Planet)

[Chibi_Kaji]

I'm wondering just how many of those protesters will buy L4D2 anyway...

[dwhelan]

They also released an SDK for TF2... have they done that for L4D?

Maps are free, not content specific, because of the SDK.

Class upgrades they could have charged for, but didn't, still, a minor upgrade.

And achivements?!? You gotta be friggin kidding....


I would guess that the AI Director is nothing then? I'd assume that Vavle had already tried to see if they could roll this out? couldn't so scraped it for L4D2?

Benefit of the doubt would be helpful.... it's not even out yet, nor near any release of notes by Vavle themselves.

I would cry foul for no SDK, but maybe it won't work for L4D2 which will be stupid.

Plus what's the argument here...people paid $50, didn't think they got $50 worth, bitch and moan because Valve is making another $50 product.

That little piggy went whaa whaa whaa all the way home.

Personally I wanted L4D, but waited till it dropped to $25, it was easly worth that, and the release of the rest of the campaings vs, and survival mode completes it, now only if they can get an SDK, we'd be all set.


Final Thought... or question then thought: Are we seeing this on the console side or PC? It might be the fact that there is a console side that they could be releasing a sequel. Far easier to incorporate new things to a solid medium. I don't own one so I will stop there, but maybe we'd see a different path for L4D2 if the console version did not exist.

They released the SDK last month - http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Authoring_Tools/SDK_(Left_4_Dead)

As for the argument about it being to soon or to much or a money grab, it is to late now, make your decision by purchasing or not purchasing, the game is coming either way.

[RudyPants]

I'm still going to buy it ... a new Left 4 Dead is a new Left 4 Dead. I can see why people are upset, but they're going to buy it anyway.

[SuxoR]

Pretty sad that once again gamers are the one making themselves look foolish, instead of praising Valve for making a great game and rewarding them by purchasing their games

they boycott them and make them think twice about their "fans"

sad man...stop complaining and buy the damn game OR don't simple

[Tsukento]

Can anyone really name any other PC games that follow a new game after one year concept?
Call of Duty: World at War came out a year after Call of Duty 4. While not technically the same game, still a sequel to the CoD series that's on the PC. There's also Crysis being released in '07, with Crysis Warhead in '08, and this year we were shown Crysis 2.

Pretty sad that once again gamers are the one making themselves look foolish, instead of praising Valve for making a great game and rewarding them by purchasing their games

they boycott them and make them think twice about their "fans"

sad man...stop complaining and buy the damn game OR don't simple
What's funny is how these people are bitching and moaning as if Valve has a history of this and pretend the company's never gone above and beyond for the fanbase before.

[Genocidal]

I think what we got here is a seperation of PC vs Console.

the above post references CS and COD2... while I think the rest of the crowd is mainly bitching on the Console side of things. 17,000 users in a Steam community, you know, Valve's online distribution system for PC games, probably aren't all that concerned about the console side of things.


Again sucks for everyone that didn't get it cheap... but hey... you obviously justified the payment.Again, many people purchased the game, justifying it by Valve's past track record of game updates and the promises that were made of long-term support for Left 4 Dead.

L4D is a new IP and should be treated differently, not comparing it to TF2.TFC, the last game in the "series" came out 10 years ago and really doesn't have a ton in common with TF2. You can pretty much treat it as a new IP as well.

I think we can look at UT04 as a great example of everlasting, even now it's trumping UT3 which has been re-released.

Why? because of the home user created content, by what? Epics/Atari's SDK that's easy to create maps.UT2k4 is also the better game... UT3 received middling reviews, to say the least.[/QUOTE]

i remember the good old days when people would protest with their wallets and not with their mouths.Kind of hard to do when the game isn't out yet, and with so many developers blaming lowered sales on piracy or the economy without actually stopping to think about it, it's good to let them know why you aren't buying their game. I know I'll be protesting with both my wallet and my mouth.

[Thomas96]

They should have boycotted L4D1

[howlinmad]

You forget that the internet is full of entitlement driven assholes. Next they will start an uproar that they should be able to download any copyrighted work off of the internet for free....oh wait.

Has Valve actually said they will stop supporting L4D1? Maybe they did or didn't, I'm actually asking.
I did enjoy the single player of L4D, so I'm looking forward to 2, and I do not regret the purchase at full price with or without multiplayer.

It seems like a lot of people have misguided expectations.

I can understand the concerns over splitting the community, but I don't understand peoples expectation that Valve is somehow obligated to continue providing free content, or the implication that it was somehow part of the deal when they bought the first game. Purchase games at the price you feel is fair for the content available at the time of purchase (with obvious exceptions for games based on user generated content like Little Big Planet)

[Ziv]

Fuck them. I'm boycotting it because it's nots being called Left5Dead like the true sequel should be.

Also, it took like 8 or more years for TF2 to come out. Do you really want to wait that long in between games?

[Raconteur]

http://hurleysashimi.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/crying-baby-party-56800676.jpg

[Salamando3000]

Call of Duty: World at War came out a year after Call of Duty 4. While not technically the same game, still a sequel to the CoD series that's on the PC. There's also Crysis being released in '07, with Crysis Warhead in '08, and this year we were shown Crysis 2.

What's funny is how these people are bitching and moaning as if Valve has a history of this and pretend the company's never gone above and beyond for the fanbase before.

World at War and Call of Duty 4 were sequels, but each was done by a different development studio and had different people involved. Crysis Warhead, from everything I can find about it, retailed at launch for 30 bucks. So, while I'll yield that this concept isn't that ludicrous, I still maintain that yearly installments of games is something that is still fairly uncommon to PC gaming.

And for all those people who say people should shut up and protest by not buying, what kind of bend-over-and-take-it mentality is that? If we protest then, it will be too late to change how the game gets released. All that would do is cause them to ask "if you had such a problem with it before, why not bring it up?" We complain now, there's still a chance they can change something, or do something, or explain something, such that all who want to play the game don't have to protest.

[howlinmad]

Some people just like the idea of a good protest.

Maybe Valve will team up with Blizzard, that make everybody happy? You will get to play the sequel about the time you collect SS.

[Monsta Mack]

i remember the good old days when people would protest with their wallets and not with their mouths.

Agreed. If this game sells anywhere close to the estimated 2 million copies the first sold (just on XBox 360 alone, Valve would have a better idea of PC sales) then this boycott is just as pointless. Actually even if it gets over 200k sigs you have to factor in that some people are most likely angry PS3 owners who won't see this on their system at all.

I'm guessing for every 2-3 Modern Warfare 2s that are sold a L4D2 will be sold.

Maybe Valve will be nice and lower the price to $40 to tempt the naysayers.

[Hydro2Oxide]

This is the issue here. I'm willing to bet a large number of people okay with this change play it on the 360, where their no stranger to the yearly sequel. However, put on your PC hats for a moment. In the PC-World, this type of stuff has never flown. For smaller additions (and even some big ones), we're quite accustomed to free content packs. For larger ones, that's what expansion packs were designed for. Entirely new games? That is just a ludicrous concept. Can anyone really name any other PC games that follow a new game after one year concept?

Now, I can understand why they need to do a Left 4 Dead 2 on the 360. With the filesize limits on both DLC and Patches, it would be near-impossible. On the PC-side of things, what's preventing them from doing limited content patches and/or an expansion pack? That's all I really want to know.

Totally agreed with this. I'm both a console and PC gamer but 80% PC, 20% 360 if not more on the PC side. But even though the 360 has limits what's stopping them from doing a L&tD or an oblivion type expansion for 20-30 and also releasing it in stores? Seemingly nothing as this still runs on what appears to be an unchanged Source Engine (4?)

Regardless, arguing this here is of no benefit because Valve won't see this and I'm obviously not going to change minds. I'm really surprised though, I wouldn't imagine CAGs of all people to accept this.

[crystalklear64]

I'm really surprised though, I wouldn't imagine CAGs of all people to accept this.
You're too focused on the principle rather than the bottom line.

At the end of the day, a CAG is interested in getting the content (ie. game, l4d 2) at a low price. This may be a few months down the line, when steam holds their 75%, or 50% off sale, but its pretty much a sure thing if you wait longer enough. All your complaining about the principle or having to pay full retail at launch means absolutely nothing, because we simply won't buy it until it becomes cheap.

That sends the exact same message as boycotting the game does, without going to the stupid extremes of saying, "I will not buy this game, period." It tells Valve that whatever their initial price is (assuming its near retail) is too high for the majority of customers.

Maybe I'm supporting Valve doing this sort of thing by buying it, even at a severely discounted price, but I don't give a shit. I'll be getting it anyway and getting it cheap.

[xycury]

You're too focused on the principle rather than the bottom line.

At the end of the day, a CAG is interested in getting the content (ie. game, l4d 2) at a low price. This may be a few months down the line, when steam holds their 75%, or 50% off sale, but its pretty much a sure thing if you wait longer enough. All your complaining about the principle or having to pay full retail at launch means absolutely nothing, because we simply won't buy it until it becomes cheap.

That sends the exact same message as boycotting the game does, without going to the stupid extremes of saying, "I will not buy this game, period." It tells Valve that whatever their initial price is (assuming its near retail) is too high for the majority of customers.

Maybe I'm supporting Valve doing this sort of thing by buying it, even at a severely discounted price, but I don't give a shit. I'll be getting it anyway and getting it cheap.

Even Valve knows this too. They had a very deep dicussion and study on game pricing soon after L4D released.

I'd love to see the numbers of who bought what and when... that first time Amazon was selling it, I missed out, that was near Jan or so, but then they came out again on a Steam special for half off.

Quickly I did buy it then.

I think if Valve puts out as much effort as they say thay are in L4D2, then everyone needs to quit bitching and accept it that you're getting a sequel.

[guinaevere]

Was referring other Valve follow ups or sequels in general.Ah, thank you for clarifying.

i remember the good old days when people would protest with their wallets and not with their mouths.You mean, do something effective?!? What a silly notion.

<pic>That picture made me laugh. =)

[Lone_Prodigy]

I was playing L4D1 last night. Hunter hitboxes were off, Boomer vomit wouldn't hit, and I discovered a new corner to camp in DA3 crescendo. Now I know every game at launch has its glitches and bugs (hence why I rarely ever buy a game at launch anymore), but a little part in the back of my mind wonders whether these problems would still exist had Valve fully committed itself to L4D1 rather than secretly start work on L4D2. The Survival pack was nice, but DA and DT really needed more tweaking to be balanced Versus maps, and Survival was pretty bugged at first.

Maybe we would already have the SDK. Maybe the game would be better balanced and more fun to play. Maybe the matchmaking would already be better. Who knows what L4D1 would be like if L4D2 wasn't already in the works. IMO it's this knowledge that has disappointed me.

On a slightly related note, I think it would be nice if the Charger was patched into L4D1.

[Irukandji]

I'll buy L4D2 but I want half of my money back that I spent on the first L4D.

[guinaevere]

Okay (http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224104).

[TheMoniter]

I wouldn't expect a huge expansion for L4D without having to pay for it. I don't mind paying for a decent sized expansion that I know will be good since it's from Valve. What I don't want is a sequel to be released with content that would be better delivered in an expansion. Granted, we have not seen alot of what the new game is going to be like, but I'm sure most of it would be better off added on to the original. I mean, what new content did they actually add in that ONE mini-expansion? They made two maps playable in versus that should already have been playable in versus at launch. They added a new game mode that I don't play a whole lot, nor does anyone I know. And they added that Last Stand map which, let's be honest, is pretty small and probably didn't take that long to create. Don't get me wrong though, I will be buying Valve games for years. The games they release are ALWAYS good and they keep new content flowing to the community that supports them. They are the exact opposite of EA. EA games lose their playability in less than a year; in a few weeks for some. Valve on the other hand, releases games that go for YEARS due to the new content and just the fact that the games are fun. I don't agree with the decision to release a sequel to a game that hasn't run it's Valve-lengthed course yet and I think this boycott from the Steam Community will help keep Valve sharp.