CAGcast #211: Very Controversial

[CheapyD]

15060[/IMG-L]Controversy abound with discussion on Mafia 2, Metroid Other M, used games, Xbox Live price hike, the latest game shopping and industry news, your CAGbag (http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71382) and Twitter (http://www.twitter.com/cheapyd) questions and so much more.

120
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Show Linkage/Notes (click the button below to expand):
Intro: Contact 00 - Plump DJs (http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/contact-00/id275516852?i=275517272)

The Video Game Release List of 8/28 - 9/3 (http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/65360)

CAG Community Lists (http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/../list.php)

Pre-owned 'cheats developers' - THQ (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=261330) - Penny Arcade Responds (http://www.penny-arcade.com/2010/8/25/)

Mafia 2 faces Jimmy's Vendetta on September 7 (http://www.joystiq.com/2010/08/31/mafia-2-faces-jimmys-vendetta-on-september-7/)

Microsoft to Raise Xbox Live Subscription Fee, Says Pacther (from 2009) (http://www.1up.com/news/microsoft-raise-xbox-live-subscription)
Microsoft shows off new controller, with transforming D-pad - Play & Charge Required (http://feeds.arstechnica.com/%7Er/arstechnica/gaming/%7E3/xn4HKcaf64w/microsoft-shows-off-new-controller-with-transforming-d-pad.ars)

Nintendo Drops Price on DSi And DSi XL (http://feedproxy.google.com/%7Er/MultiplayerBlog/%7E3/ZSyxQ9b3UaQ/)

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Outro: Fun with Tai
(http://twitpic.com/1921lx)

[ChuckNoLuck]

Cheapy wants me to flunk college by always staying up for a new CAGcast. oh well

[paintball745]

Cant wait to listen to it thanks again cheapy.

[xlaxparkax]

Listening.

[bebop]

Boredom Solved!

[muzras]

I luvz cagzcastz ^_^. downloading 2 listenz. :D

[Velo214]

Great show as always! Thanx for making the funniest and coolest podcast around :)

[bobthecat23]

Sounds like the chipmunks when I download off of iTunes one my iPhone :(

[Bluntsly]

Another night shift without boredom thanks to the cagcast

[drew327]

iPods are sold at Best Buy so they can sell you a service plan and 5 accessories (that is where the $$ is). Big Box retailers don't necessarily need disc-based games to make money (hardly make any on them), as long as there are accessories to sell.

[meager]

Unfortunately, we are already trending towards disc-less gaming as a whole. Retailers are selling cards for downloadable games in B&M stores, and would probably be quite happy to be rid of the bulky, high-theft media. I'm still waiting for them to implement barcode reading into console cameras so I don't have to type in the stupid codes.

This does not bode well for consumers, however. Seeing as how much trouble it is to transfer downloaded content from one console to another of the same generation... what's the likelyhood that they will make these saves transferable to (and compatible with) future consoles? Not likely, since they can charge you again for new versions and just call you sol for less popular games they don't feel are worthy to update.

[AleetPanda]

I worked in retail for a period and I can say for a fact that there is very little margin on video games and even less on ipods.

[Sarang01]

Cheapy why don't you look at what Klipsch and Nakamichi have to offer over Yamaha? You'll get better sound quality and authentic surround sound. You'll likely be able to easily mount them if that's what you end up having to choose from too.
Seriously don't pay for simulated surround sound when you can afford quality brands.

[Fjordson]

Hell yes, CAGcast this early in the week is too good.

[Bezerker]

$10 says Wombat says something that makes ppl dislike him.

[crunchewy]

First I should note I haven't listened to the podcast. I'm responding to some comments here. I hardly play any of my disc based games on the current consoles as it is. On my Xbox it's almost all XBLA and Indie downloads, though there are exceptions (Blur I play a fair amount, and Deathsmiles). On the Wii I do play more disc-based games, but that's because of the lack of demos for their download games. I'd play a lot more download games if they had demos for all downloads. Mostly, though, I play games on my iPhone, and that's obviously all download.

So, for me, a switch away from disc-based games wouldn't be a big deal, in fact would be welcome, but they've got to realize that a download game can't cost more then $15, and there has to be a demo available. Since you can't resell a download game, you've got to be sure it's for you, and that means demos. For similar reasons the price can't be too high since there's no resell value in the future. The exception to the must-have-demo rule is super-cheap games that you might take a chance on even without a demo, as long as the reviews are good. See good 99c games on the iPhone, like Monster Dash. Or games you know you're going to like, such as Carcassonne and Reiner Knizia's Samurai, in my case. The latter two suck up most of my gaming time these days.

[ObiBen]

I just want to thank Wombat for saying that buying used games does not make you a bad person. After some comments on the Joystiq Podcast last week I was feeling like scum for even thinking about buying a used game.

[Shakey Steve]

Soooo cute at the end...Tai has a Japanese accent :D

[MannishBoy]

Bose does do well at marketing. As to Shipwreck's comment that nobody offers small speakers that are comparable size wise, that is not true. There are lots of other and better small speakers available. Energy, Klipsch, maybe Aperion, etc.

The old, old, joke is "No highs, no lows....must be Bose".

A good place to research is avsforums.com

[mastermind]

Came in here to see if Cheapy posted his ringtones or not and was sad when I didn't find any info about the first one he played. I want that as my ringtone!

[RichMeisterMan]

Soooo cute at the end...Tai has a Japanese accent :D

Well imagine that! A half Japanese kid growing up in Japan has a Japanese accent!

...sorry, I couldn't resist. I'm an asshole.

[shipwreck]

It's not only the speaker size, it's the size of the receiver that makes Bose an attractive option to me. I don't want a bulky receiver and I haven't seen many other low-profile receivers. To be honest, the AVS forums have always had too much info for me. I often leave that site with more questions than I had to begin with.

[mik]

We just finished our basement and I had been investigating surround systems when I became quite enamored of soundbars. Those Yamaha models you mentioned are really nice, Cheapy. I think you'd be more than pleased with one of those. I decided on an even smaller model, because my room is just not all that big. I got the Sony HTCT 150, which is <$300 and pumps out a ridiculous amount of sound. The surround effect is decent, but not on par with the Yamahas--but the sound quality is stellar. The other thing I love about the soundbar solution is the lack of wires. I run four HDMIs into the subwoofer and a single HDMI out to the TV, and that's it. And the HDMI handshake makes it so I control the volume of the system with my TV remote--even though they're different brands--without programming it to do so. Pretty sweet. Oh, and the HTCT is also fully 3D compatible if it matters to you (it did to me--you are right about Motorstorm in 3D. It's amazing). Here are some pics to show just how small the little bastard is:

http://i36.tinypic.com/2cifyvq.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/6o1xk7.jpg

[easper]

The whole brouhaha about not being able to use abilities in Metroid could have been avoided. All they had to do was replace the "you don't have permission" concept with Samus's suit getting damaged at the beginning of the game and it taking a certain period of time for the various weapons and abilities to come back online. I agree with Ship, its just a game convention. But they should have come up with a better excuse, if only to keep players from focusing on something so trivial.

[smoger]

In regards to retailers not supporting digitally distributed consoles.. I have to disagree with Wombat.

Ship made a great example with the iPods.. the store profits on their sale but not necessarily on the media for them.. I haven't even seen stores try to push cd's as a way to fill ipods.

Here's another example: record players. You can buy them in any Target, and a lot of other electronic stores, and yet you'll never find a single record(or any parts for them) without stepping foot into a specialty or hipster shop. Record players are certainly not as popular as game consoles or ipods, and yet target feels ok devoting half an aisle to them in every store.

I think a *mostly* digitally distributed future will be here before we know it, and I think publishers would love that and will help that come to fruition.

I also think Cheapy is right in saying that seeing a title on the shelf in a store is a great way to create awareness.. so certainly they'll need to consider that as we move through this transition. Steam proves that it's possible.

======

In regards to Red Dead's collection quests: I wouldn't call them fun, but i didn't mind completing them on the road to 100%. Plus, I quickly discovered that if you park your horse so it's standing over top of the dead animal, you skip the skinning animation altogether! The perks you get for finishing the challenges aren't entirely useless either.

[CheapyD]

mik, your basement looks awesome!

Cheapy why don't you look at what Klipsch and Nakamichi have to offer over Yamaha?
Those brands aren't sold here. In fact, a vast majority of stuff that is available in America (especially HTIB stuff) is just not sold here.
Also, I don't remember if I mentioned it on the show, but my proximity to Tokyo Tower tends to cause speaker wire to transform into radio antennas.

Came in here to see if Cheapy posted his ringtones or not and was sad when I didn't find any info about the first one he played. I want that as my ringtone!
It's in a pack of 50 for $3.99
Wheel A
http://rcptones.com/Ringtones1.0.html

[Duck in a Pond]

Can't wait to listen!

[Broken Cage]

Digital Distribution doesn't work because Publishers overcharge for it, constantly. Look at Civilization Revolution, it costs $15 used at Amazon, $19 new at Amazon, and $29 for the digital version on Games on Demand. $10 MORE despite no manufacturing expenses. Publishers are Publishers, I wouldn't call them good retailers, and taking the competition of actual retailers from the equation will see games MORE overpriced than they are now. Mark my words.

As for the difference between used and Piracy, it's this. Used is singular. You can buy A used game, you can make a THOUSAND copies of a game. If Wombat buys a game, and I purchase it after him, there's still only one game. If Wombat uploads a game, and I download it, that game is still there for a million other people to download after me. To not see that simple equation makes the Penny Arcade guys seem awfully ignorant.

A single used game floating in the market is always traded for a value, whether it be a trade in for a store credit, or money that Gamestop uses to purchase an inventory of new games. A pirated game is always distributed freely, it never feeds back into any section of the industry, whether it be developers or game retailers.

There are also a hundred other variables to go along with destroying the used market. What happens to all the "used" games people don't want if they can't resell? They'd go in the garbage. More waste for the planet, but better for Publisher's bottom line. What about the employees of Gamestop? What about the Mom and Pop local stores? They get laid off and go out of business, but better for Publisher's bottom line. At some point, the big picture has to outweigh corporate greed.

As for the way to make up the money from Used games, Capcom just did it. $5 dollars for a full on game, with its own demo, that people can enjoy EARLY to help offset the cost of development. Improved DLC that isn't just Weapons/Skins or an extra mission with no narrative. Brand loyalty, not "fuck you if we don't get your money." Better business sense, not just "release any garbage we can for $60.00, and hope we make money." Honestly, do the math, how many games are released each year by Publishers, and how many are quality games worth the $60.00 price tag?

Sorry for the rant.

[ZombieJeebus]

About halfway through, great show as usual.

Ship, thanks for bringing up Ipod to blow Wombat's argument out of the water. Wombat has brought this up before, and every time I end up shouting "what about mp3 players then?"

His counter argument about it only can happen if you are an iconic brand like an ipod is weak too. Last I checked Target, Walmart and Best Buy all had dozens of different mp3 players. And the retailers can't even make extra money off of those with iTunes cards to sell.

Sooner or later (I'm guessing toward the end of this console gen) MS or Sony will put a major game out for download on day 1 with it coming out on retail. That is 60 bucks that goes straight into their pocket instead of having to share it with a retailer. Why would they not want to do that?

[rogXue]

I forgot I posted a review for you guys on the 25th. I couldn't copy/paste so I didn't bother putting it in here. Under rogXue in most recent if you want to waste the time to track it down.

[rogXue]

Mik,

How does that connect to your receiver. If it is mimicking full surround sound wouldn't it need different channels? I've always been intrigued by soundbars but have never actively looked into them.

[mik]

It is the receiver, essentially. Everything goes in and out of the subwoofer. The bar has an array of speakers that are pointed in different directions to bounce the sound around and simulate surround.

[Broken Cage]

Ship, thanks for bringing up Ipod to blow Wombat's argument out of the water. Wombat has brought this up before, and every time I end up shouting "what about mp3 players then?"

His counter argument about it only can happen if you are an iconic brand like an ipod is weak too. Last I checked Target, Walmart and Best Buy all had dozens of different mp3 players. And the retailers can't even make extra money off of those with iTunes cards to sell.


That's Apples and Oranges, just as it was when Shipwreck made the comment. Here is why, there is and never has been a physical media to use with the Ipod. It, and all MP3 players, have always been exclusively digital. There was never a market for Ipods and other MP3 players to take away from retailers. (Also MP3s are the result of extreme compression which can be detrimental to sound quality, thus many people still insist on buying the actual albums.)

Consoles, on the other hand, have ALWAYS had a physical media that retailers stocked and sold. To suddenly remove that revenue from the retailers only to improve their own cut could certainly lead to a backlash.

Edit: and before the argument that "mp3s hurt CD sales" comes up, that had nothing to do with Ipods or any other MP3 player on the market.

[Falion]

I'm happy to hear Shipwreck defending Other M. I shared his love for Ninja Gaiden and disappointment for Ninja Gaiden 2, so I'm really hoping I agree with his feelings for Metroid.

[dubbfoolio]

Tycho is so full of fucking shit. I would never buy a $60 game without it having some sort of resale value. I think we're full aware that game companies (and industry leaches thereabout) would like for us to give more of our money to their cause. Fact is the ability to resale and transfer license of the software is already built into the price tag. If they want to go down the downloadable/drc/user license route they are going to run into a harsh reality that consumers are not willing to spend nearly as much on what essentially boils down to a game rental (See the app store). I'll echo Wombat's sentiment: "Go fuck yourself richie rich."

[JadedJedi]

When discs are gone, there will be no more sales, since the purpose of sales is to move old product out to make room for new product. The games will just be files on a network server and you can just add more space. How many sales has Microsoft had on their games on demand? I don't ever remember them lowering a price on any of them. Who will sell the systems if there is no software? The manufacturer themselves. I don't know about you but if this happens and/or every future system generation is motion control only, I will stop playing new games. I should not be charged the same amount of money in store for a digital download. Take Starcraft 2 for instance, both the boxed version and dd are $60. With the dd I dont get a pretty box or a manual that I can read on the can. It should be at the most $50. This will be the end of freedom as we know it.

[mik]

Someone should remind Tycho that a person who gets a game for free from the publisher is no different to the developer than a person who pirates the game.

[dc_fortythree]

regarding the topic of MS increasing the yearly subscription price for LIVE i think the point isnt that CAGs dont have to pay full price, its that the final price after any discount applied to MSRP will now be higher. for example if the currnet deal price of a 12 month card is $40, that equates to a 20% discount. applying the same discount to the new price come November the net price has risen to $48. personally i dont have any interest in accessing Netflix streaming, ESPN ocho, or facebook on my 360 so to me im paying more for the same thing, the ability to play online.

[Monsta Mack]

Like what was said - XBL and PSN games are download only because they are CHEAP AND EFFECTIVE. Good luck having a $50-$60 title released only PSN/XBL succeed. People are comfortable spending $10-$20 on a XBL/PSN title with DLC, but I bet money no one is gonna throw down $60 on a download only title *unless * it has the names of: Mario, Gran Turismo or Halo - and that would be a very risky move on the publishers part.

[ZombieJeebus]

That's Apples and Oranges, just as it was when Shipwreck made the comment. Here is why, there is and never has been a physical media to use with the Ipod. It, and all MP3 players, have always been exclusively digital. There was never a market for Ipods and other MP3 players to take away from retailers. (Also MP3s are the result of extreme compression which can be detrimental to sound quality, thus many people still insist on buying the actual albums.)

Consoles, on the other hand, have ALWAYS had a physical media that retailers stocked and sold. To suddenly remove that revenue from the retailers only to improve their own cut could certainly lead to a backlash.

Edit: and before the argument that "mp3s hurt CD sales" comes up, that had nothing to do with Ipods or any other MP3 player on the market.

Wombat's core argument is that retailers make their money off of the software sales, and that without that they have no reason to sell hardware. This is false. Ipod argument stands.

[Wombat]

Wombat's core argument is that retailers make their money off of the software sales, and that without that they have no reason to sell hardware.

no it wasn't

[4nik8tor]

Wombat.. where did you buy your xbox live sub?

[Wombat]

Wombat.. where did you buy your xbox live sub?

If you have auto-renew, call 1-800-4-my-xbox. Tell them you want to cancel your auto-renew, they will offer you 800 ms points to keep it on.

[eataburger]

There were 2 points in the podcast where I actually felt like I would say the SAME THING if I were on the show.

1. Nobody needs to pay full price for XBOX Gold anyways. There's always deals to be had.

2. Chippy D didn't just happen out of nothing. As Chris Rock says "As a father your ONLY goal is to keep your daughter off the pole".

[Broken Cage]

Wombat's core argument is that retailers make their money off of the software sales, and that without that they have no reason to sell hardware. This is false. Ipod argument stands.

It really doesn't. Here's why: the MP3 player arrived after MP3s had already boomed. There was no available software to sell because there was an existing market of people already using that software. MP3s existed before the Ipod, and people were using them. Back when Winamp popped up in 97, through Napster, all of it hit before the Ipod existed. So it makes no sense to argue that they wouldn't sell Ipods because they can't sell MP3s. The MP3s were already there, the software was free flowing all over the internet. The hardware was where the money was.

The Ipod was invented in response to the software. Whereas the Xbox's software is created in response to the hardware. It's two completely different avenues. Apple nor any MP3 manufacturer had a foothold on MP3s to cut out other retailers, video games on the other hand are completely proprietary and retailers have the leverage to say "Hey, don't cut us out of your software or we won't carry your hardware."

[Ltor]

your gonna have to wait cag cast, steve jobs has to tell me why i need new ipods first.

[eataburger]

your gonna have to wait cag cast, steve jobs has to tell me why i need new ipods first.

Cause you're a sucker? ;)

[Sarang01]

mik, your basement looks awesome!


Those brands aren't sold here. In fact, a vast majority of stuff that is available in America (especially HTIB stuff) is just not sold here.
Also, I don't remember if I mentioned it on the show, but my proximity to Tokyo Tower tends to cause speaker wire to transform into radio antennas.


Are you sure about Nakamichi? It's a Japanese brand. I could see that with Klipsch but not Nakamichi.

Shame to hear that about the speaker wire. Isn't there a way to shield that from radio signals? At least I would hope so.

Oh and shippy you really should look at some of the brands mannish and I mentioned. Klipsch has some fairly small speakers and there is definitely some raving about their quality going on.

[AwRy108]

Wow, terrific podcast yet again, guys.

I absolutely loved hearing your opinions on the whole "Used Games Are Evil" subject: it's great to hear well-respected people actually offer a realistic argument on this matter, which is something that not even sites like Penny Arcade can offer up any more. The discussion amongst the three of you was one for the ages, and I really wish that all the other "popular" media outlets would listen to your conclusions, rather than just see things from such a black and white perspective. If publishers all truly have such an "anti-used" stance, then why don't they make more effort to lower the MSRP of games, rather than, say, shoe-horn in crappy multiplayer to try and justify a $60 sale price? Or why not sell the "Collector's Edition" of their titles at $60 and the normal editions at $50, rather than ask $70-$80 for what amounts to pennies worth of plastic? Consumers are generally pretty quick to realize when they're being ripped off (well, other than Halo fans and their cat helmets), so why do publishers keep finding new ways to creep the game prices up and then bitch about people buying used to save money? Sounds like a vicious cycle to me.

Couple quick things:
1) Anyone know what GameStop.com's run of good deals was such a short run? I was hoping to see them do more to compete with Wal*Mart, Amazon, and K*Mart for the Q4 pre-orders. What gives?

2) I'd strongly urge against the sound bar concept if you're looking for ture surround sound: I'm sure they work great in a pre-determined retail layout, but how well is the "sound reflecting" technology going to work in your personal spaces, taking into account both room size and barriers to proper reflectance? If you want an amazing set of small, balanced 5.1 speakers w/o paying Bose prices, check these out: Klipsch HD Theater 1000 5.1 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001R70ZMI/ref=ord_cart_shr) ...combined with an Onkyo HD receiver (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002DSMNPC/ref=ord_cart_shr) you're still spending less than if you were just to buy a comparable set of Bose speakers.

3) It amazes me to hear the media's mixed reaction to the sweeping changes seen in Metroid - Other M, especially considering that most of the media felt like the FPS style of the Prime series was getting old. Just goes to show that, no matter what, you can't make people happy if their minds are made up ahead of time.

[Curufinwe]

When discs are gone, there will be no more sales, since the purpose of sales is to move old product out to make room for new product. The games will just be files on a network server and you can just add more space. How many sales has Microsoft had on their games on demand?

Are you really that ignorant that you don't know about all the amazing sales on Steam?

[RichMeisterMan]

To touch on the whole thing about fighting as the Taliban in Medal of Honor...

A lot of people say it's too soon, or the fact that it is recent means it's bad and it should be shunned. Well, my grandpa was a POW in a Japanese prison camp during World War II and we play as the Japanese in some WWII games. So how is this any different? Other than the fact that time has limited our ability to appreciate just how grave the situation is.

Killing Americans as the Taliban in Medal of honor is no worse than being the Japanese team and killing the Americans in any WWII title.

Are you really that ignorant that you don't know about all the FUCKING AMAZING sales on Steam?

Fixed!

[TheResistance]

It'd be nice if they had a 'phone in session' once a month or so... and get views from the British!

[Jon F]

I'm curious what other people think of the sound bars. I haven't had the opportunity to demo one yet. I have been to a Bose demo room and thought it sounded fine. The problem with Bose to me is that the bass is a little on the weak side. I have a 7.1 system in a dedicated theater in one of my spare bedrooms that I use for movies and console gaming. I understand why people don't want their living rooms to be filled with intrusive electronics and speakers - I crammed it all in a bedroom instead. ;) I bought most of the speakers off of Craigslist and eBay from a series of Acoustic Research speakers built around 2000. I built the sub boxes myself.

Screen is in 16:9 mode (92" diagonal).

http://i590.photobucket.com/albums/ss344/jfurst81/Home%20Theater/K20D5220.jpg

[MaxBiaggi3]

As a general rule, I try to buy most of my games new. I can appreciate the developer/publisher getting paid for their work, even if it isn't a top-tier title.

Unfortunately, many new release games aren't worth full retail price to me, so I either wait for the inevitable price drop(s) or buy used if the price is reasonable. (Note to Gamestop: a used game for $2 below the retail price of a new copy is not reasonable.)

Most of the games I buy used are old enough that finding a new copy would be difficult anyway. I don't feel guilty buying older used games. For recent releases, I'll watch for a sale on a new copy rather than risk a scratched disc, worn case or missing manual on a used model for just a few bucks less.

[Adamu Kuezada]

Cheapy your ringtones sucks.

[apathylad]

Personally, I think G4's attacks on Metroid being "sexist" are just silly. What's ironic is that G4 isn't exactly what I call a classy network in their portrayal of women.

On the subject of used games, I never understood the hostility on the subject matter. People buy/rent used products all the time, such as books, movies, cars, etc. Furthermore, if developers and publishers don't like the way GameStop does business, why does GameStop always get exclusive preorder bonuses?

As for Wombat and Shipwreck's Digital vs. Physical debate, that's a trickier subject. The problem with digital games is that games tend to be larger than the average XBLA title. The thought of downloading a PS3 Blu-Ray to my console sounds like it would be time consuming and frustrating. Also, with Nintendo appealing to the casual market this generation, and Sony & Microsoft trying to match that audience, I'm not convinced casual crowds would be interested in exclusively digital titles.

[shipwreck]

2) I'd strongly urge against the sound bar concept if you're looking for ture surround sound: I'm sure they work great in a pre-determined retail layout, but how well is the "sound reflecting" technology going to work in your personal spaces, taking into account both room size and barriers to proper reflectance? If you want an amazing set of small, balanced 5.1 speakers w/o paying Bose prices, check these out: Klipsch HD Theater 1000 5.1 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001R70ZMI/ref=ord_cart_shr) ...combined with an Onkyo HD receiver (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002DSMNPC/ref=ord_cart_shr) you're still spending less than if you were just to buy a comparable set of Bose speakers.


While I'm sure the quality of those speakers and receiver are excellent... they are bulky compared to Bose. The Klipsch satellite speakers are 189.2 cubic inches each while the Bose satellite speakers are 32.9 cubic inches each. That's 5.75 times the volume. The Onkyo receiver is 1758 cubic inches while the Bose receiver is 463 cubic inches. That's 3.8 times the volume.

I'm trying to keep things compact and simple while still sounding good.

[lokizz]

$10 says Wombat says something that makes ppl dislike him.


thats easy money lol seriously to say its backwards to own a ps3 before having an hd tv is retarted. i waited to get a ps3 until i could get a bc model at a decent price and then i waited to get an hd tv until i knew more about them and could get one at a decent price.

for someone who loves to haggle over everything they purchase its kinda assanine to throw out a statement like that but its what he does best so hes at least living up to low expectations.

and that shit about laurence fishburne being responsible for his kid being in porn is bs to. shit happens an regardless of what a parent says or does for their kids guess what some kids will do whatever the fuck they want.
the chick even said shes doing it to become famous because unfortunately alot of people have made themselves famous doing that shit. being the father of a daughter yourself you should be careful of how you pass judgement on someone elses parenting skills.

and then youve got cheapy saying the gta stories werent any good but mafia 2 was amazing. he didnt even finish san andreas , which had the best gta story imo, so how can he even begin to judge the game? its obvious the guy cant focus on a game unless its easy enough for him to plow through or its got cheesy shit for him to enjoy.

sr2 was a fun game but that game had one of the worst stories ive ever seen in a game and compared to gta sa is a very shitty game.

man and did you hear the pain in cheapys voice when he had to admit the 3d in motorstorm 2 was fun and worked well but then quickly went on to say its still not worth buying lol.

[Droogs]

I just wanted to give some helpful tips on the back hair issue. I used to have my girlfriend do it, but that ended long ago. I then did an internet search and found a funny looking product that allows you to do it yourself. You just stick a razor in it and voila. Funny story...I had it hanging in my shower hanging from a hook and when my mom came over to visit, she saw it and asked me what it was. Me being the awkward person that I am, told her that it's a sex toy.

Link: http://www.amazon.com/Razorba-War-Hammer-Back-Shaver/dp/B002MUAP5G/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=hpc&qid=1283375891&sr=8-3

[ZombieJeebus]

no it wasn't

From the 45:13 mark:

Wombat: Financially speaking, Best Buy would stop selling consoles if they had no games to sell with them. And if BB, Target, Walmart etc all of a sudden said "we're not selling your consoles anymore, if you don't start releasing some disc based games", then they're not going to sell consoles anymore.

Ship: Well what about ipods then?

Wombat: ahhhhhhh...
=============================

The implication is that without software to supplement them, the margins for selling consoles is so thin that it is not worth it for retailers to sell them.

I don't buy this. Hardware has a much much longer shelf life than software, which in today's market goes in the crapper after the first week unless it is a AAA title.

I agree with your assertion the retail market will always be there. Retailers still reserve some space for CDs and DVDs.

I disagree in the amount of pull you think retailers have on MS and Sony's plans for digital content. They couldn't stop music going digital, they didn't even have the awareness to try. Games are no different.

[Achuba Nanoia]

Interest show, though for some reason it seemed that only CheapyD was really interested in it! Anyway, looking forward to the next one!

[Fjordson]

Great episode, duders.

But consider my mind blown at the negative comments about Rockstar's story, dialogue and characters. Obviously liking or disliking Rockstar-made games is a matter of personal preference, but I'm shocked you hold Mafia II in such positive regard by comparison. I enjoyed all of the aforementioned stuff in Mafia II also when I saw it on TV late one night years and years ago. It was called Goodfellas.

I find it surprising that Cheapy doesn't find anything interesting in the production values of the Grand Theft Auto Games, and I suppose by extension Red Dead Redemption. I could spend hours listing all of the clever and satirical jokes, commercials and characters throughout the series. Not to mention the comedic talk radio hosts, the quality soundtracks with actual period appropriate music (a decent number of tracks in Mafia II are completely anachronistic) and so on and so forth. I just feel like Rockstar's games pack an infinitely bigger and more original punch than most open world games, Mafia II included.

With all of that being said, I don't hate Mafia II by any means. It looks gorgeous on the PC and I enjoy the gun combat. I just keep noticing this strange, subtle aversion to Rockstar in the last few months.

Alright, end of rant. I suppose I should brace myself for the incoming Rockstar fanboy accusations. Despite the above paragraphs, 'twas truly a quality episode. An eruption of laughter almost made me spit my soda all over my monitor, caused by Wombat's "Fuck you for judging" response to Tycho.

[xlaxparkax]

Great show, as usual. I just wanted to express my opinion on the whole Xbox Live controversy, especially since I've got a different take on how this affects me as a customer who lives in a U.S. Territory..

I guess I'm still mad at the Xbox Live price hike, but mainly because they're adding features I won't be able to enjoy. I can't watch anything on Hulu since it's region locked (and I'm in Puerto Rico, go figure), and I guess I could care less about ESPN, since I'm not into sports, and it will probably be region locked too. At least the improved audio quality sounds promising, but it's hardly something to get stoked about. We'll see how low and how often those Live cards will be on sale from now on, and if they will be available at the same price range we're used to get them ($30.00-$35.00). Personally, I think they should get rid of Facebook, Last FM, Zune, Twitter, and all that, since it's pretty pointless to have half-assed access to those sites. They could just put a somewhat practical Internet browser on Xbox Live, maybe work on the whole infrastructure of Live (better matchmaking, improved connections), and somehow deal with all the stupidity and nonsense that comes with connecting to their service. I have my privacy settings set to friends only on Xbox Live, and I have a 50-something percent of bad reviews of people accusing me of being overtly aggressive, having a disruptive voice, or whatever, which is funny because I don't even use a mic when I'm not in a party with my friends. I'm pretty sure I;'m going to get banned, or get that Code Of Conduct thing on my profile very soon thanks to all the rage-quitters and dweebs who get mad at you because you're not listening to them while they call you $$$$er/jew/spic/$$$, or because you beat them fair and square at some game. What really sucks is that i would still have to play to use Live because it's the most convenient way to play with my friends when we cannot get together for a few rounds of Super Streets Fighter or whatever game we want to play, and because the silver membership is as useful as a third thumb.

I would gladly pay full price for Xbox Live if I didn't have to deal with my privacy settings because of the assholes who ruin the whole online experience for those of us who just want to have fun. I would be very stoked if i could watch some shitty television show on Hulu without worrying about living in a Third World Country, meaning that I don't have the intellectual capacity to watch enthralling, thought-provoking movies like The Expendables, according to Hulu (and other streaming sites, YouTube included in some occasions), or because everyone who doesn't live in the United States is a pirate or a counterfeiter, as the whole copyright bullshit that appears on every region locked site makes you think. I would be thrilled if having better audio quality over Live didn't meant that I would have to listen to some immature, ignorant, racist piece of shit from who-the-fuck-knows, who's not even old enough to wipe his ass by himself, calling everyone names on Xbox Live to fill the void in his already pointless life.

Yeah, it sucks to be Major Nelson right now, but it is not as bad as having to deal with this price hike and knowing you won't be able to take advantage of the majority of the things featured on Xbox Live.

[Wombat]

From the 45:13 mark:

Wombat: Financially speaking, Best Buy would stop selling consoles if they had no games to sell with them. And if BB, Target, Walmart etc all of a sudden said "we're not selling your consoles anymore, if you don't start releasing some disc based games", then they're not going to sell consoles anymore.

Ship: Well what about ipods then?

Wombat: ahhhhhhh...
=============================
.

I missed the part where I said games had a high profit margin, cause I didn't. But games bring people to the store.

[visorman30]

hey guys great show. I did want to comment on the Live discussion. I know Cheapy was pretty much saying that if you do a little bit of homework, you shouldn't have to pay full price for Live so not really as big of a deal for the CAG community. Thing is, I think what you're referring to is largely an American perspective. Amazon.com = great, Amazon.ca = garbage for deals (main reason why Goomba on the forums does well, and he deserves it).
I'm pretty new to the 360 (my first is the new Slim) and I had a very tough time scrounging for deals on Live. This summer has been pretty brutal with no deals really reaching a mind-blastingly status (some decent ones), so it's not a surprise that Live hasn't been on sale for a while.
Anyways, I just wanted to say good show, and with regards to Live, not all regions have the same options for deals as the States.

[Swoxx]

Wombat, I think you're forgetting about a very important aspect about the digital software only future.
GameStop have already begun preparing for this. Game boxes with just a code inside already exist, and is what will replace the discs, and codes can't be sold back if they're used. This way they still get shelf space, retailers can sell and make a profit on the codes and so forth. You just recently did this at GameStop remember?

Cheers

[Broken Cage]

I missed the part where I said games had a high profit margin, cause I didn't. But games bring people to the store.

According to Forbes retailers pull in about $12.00 a disc. (I may be reading this wrong. It might be only a dollar in actual profit.)

Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo make $7.00 per disc. (Also why stores hold sway over MS/Sony/Nintendo, more consoles means more games, which means more licensing fees. Developers will not cut out physical media as long as there is a market to buy it, just like CDs.)


http://www.forbes.com/2006/12/19/ps3-xbox360-costs-tech-cx_rr_game06_1219expensivegames.html

[LiK]

Cheapy, Yamaha is a great brand. My old surround setup was a Yamaha 5.1 setup and the sound is warm and sounds good. If that soundbar sounded great to you, I think you should go for it. You can return it if you're not satisfied, right?

Also, I like Cheapy's idea for ship to ship interactions in ME3. Maybe in addition to space battles, you can do diplomacy or other sidemissions that involve ship to ship combat. Similar to the Star Trek TV shows, I guess.

[Leggo]

Someone should remind Tycho that a person who gets a game for free from the publisher is no different to the developer than a person who pirates the game.


Not exactly. They're effectively giving them free promotion. If they had offered to just send Penny Arcade $60 for kind words said, that would be insulting for most outlets. A "free" game though, and suddenly hundreds of thousands of laser-targeted consumers hear about their product.

I agree with Tycho on the used debate, he's not wrong. To the developer, it is the same as piracy. It's not a moral judgment.

I also agree with Wombat in that many times, developers don't benefit directly, as is the case when the entire studio is fired after a game is released.

I think we can all agree that buying new is preferred when possible if you want to show your support. The biggest problem is used sales and piracy within a month of release, since that generally really is a lost sale and lost revenue for publishers and developers. Do what you're going to do, but ultimately keep in mind you're always voting with your dollars, so if you really like a game and want to see more, maybe just buy the greatest hits / platinum hits version when that shows up instead of getting it used, or use goozex. Just don't encourage Gamestop, they make enough money as is.

[LiK]

Cheapy, just wanted to say that even though people can get the Live Gold cards for a cheaper price on Amazon and other stores, when the Live Gold is $60, it means the discounts will probably go up $10 as well. For example, I bet Amazon will start charging the Gold subscription card from $40 right now to $50 after the hike goes into effect. It's a lose-lose for all consumers no matter what deals you can find in the future, imo.

[Stryffe2004]

I just want to thank Wombat for saying that buying used games does not make you a bad person. After some comments on the Joystiq Podcast last week I was feeling like scum for even thinking about buying a used game.

I agree with you. Wombat was very inciteful. I like Joystiq but they are way off on this one. They keep saying that it is just saving $5, but if you have the Edge card, you get 10% more off. In addition, there are plenty of 25% of used games sales that bring the price down even further. I rarely buy full priced games. I looked for intact and clean used games or wait for price drops. If it is not on Amazon with a credit, I will generally not buy it for full price.

Lastly, my 10 year old son got a $25 Gamestop gift card for his birthday. If he didn't have the option to buy used, there would be very little for him to buy. As it turned out, he found a used copy of Spore Hero and is really enjoying it.

[Stryffe2004]

By the way Cheapy, check Amazon, Dell and Buy.com (if you can get shipping to Japan). All three of them have had the Yamaha soundbars as "deals." Amazon had a Gold Box deal on one that dropped it 50% ($1,600 down to $799 if I remember correctly). I ended up with a cheap Sony in a box soundbar, but it gets the job done for what I need.

[Evilsean]

Why are new games still $60! Its been like 5 years since Xbox 360 hit the streets. You're telling me in 5 years they haven't found ways to make the average game cheaper? Cut corners somewhere and give us a fuckin break.

[mik]

Not exactly. They're effectively giving them free promotion. If they had offered to just send Penny Arcade $60 for kind words said, that would be insulting for most outlets. A &quot;free&quot; game though, and suddenly hundreds of thousands of laser-targeted consumers hear about their product.
I was just being cheeky. I think it's funny to see people who get their games for free criticizing the spending practices of those who don't.

[Dzamboni]

Retailers make lots of bank off of Ipod accessories. Thats were all the profit comes in. All those ear buds, cases,protective screens,bling,adapters,recharge stations,alarm stations, ect. Thats were the money is. On a console theres lots of accessories, but in gerneral most people are probably only buying a few at most, but people are always replacing their ear buds.

[Leggo]

I was just being cheeky. I think it's funny to see people who get their games for free criticizing the spending practices of those who don't.

Well

1) They do pay for a lot of games for personal use. They don't get most of them free because they don't actually review titles, but I'm sure Publishers like Ubisoft (who they've worked for a lot in the past with commissioned comics) probably give them freebies.

2) They also buy TENS OF THOUSANDS of games for their Child's Play. None of those are used, as far as I know.

3) They're game devs, technically, and as such are entirely within their rights to speak as game devs when they say the used game industry effectively the same as piracy when it comes to them.

Cheek notwithstanding.

[mik]

I bought Penny Arcade Adventures used.

[Curufinwe]

Well

1) They do pay for a lot of games for personal use. They don't get most of them free because they don't actually review titles, but I'm sure Publishers like Ubisoft (who they've worked for a lot in the past with commissioned comics) probably give them freebies.

Hence PA taking a load of crap when Assassin's Creed got deservedly low scores from some outlets.


I always try to buy games new to support the publisher (and hopefully the developer). The only PS3 game I've bought used since I got my Slim a year ago is RE 5. I bought that used from Gamestop for $22.48 in February so I could buy and play the DLC which cost $14.

I probably would have bought RE 5 Gold new if it had been priced at $40 rather than $50.

[JoeX111]

I guess Womabat hasn’t been in a 7-Eleven recently. The future isn’t flying cars and microchips in the brain, but in little cardboard tags that give you downloadable codes for your games. You don’t need disk based media if you can sell people a scrap of paper with a little design on it. That costs next to nothing to produce, takes up very little shelf space and can be stocked in almost any kind of store: Perfect example, you can buy Xbox Live Arcade games at 7-Eleven. Just like how now you see iTunes gift cards almost everywhere, I wouldn’t be surprised, in 10 years time, to see must disk-based media replaced by download code cards that you redeem online to download your product. It’s not so far fetched. It’s happening even now.

[KillerRamen]

One of the worst things to come out of this generation is patches and system updates. I have this weird thing about expecting to be able to put in a game and just play, but instead I often have to wait for 30 minutes to an hour to be able to play. It sucks!

I do not want digital distribution to become the standard for consoles... I really don't want to wait over 2 days to download a next generation Final Fantasy, over a day for Metal Gear Solid 4 or almost 8 hours for Mass Effect... (God damn DSL) 50 GBs and 2.046 Mbps, 25 GBs and 2.046 Mbps, 7 GBs and 2.046 Mbps http://www.numion.com/Calculators/Time.html

If one console is DD only and one supports retail games, I'm buying the one that supports retail games and avoiding the DD console like it's a PSP Go.

[TheResistance]

Good show but really didn't agree to the comments about Rockstars storys... they're usually the best parts of the game.. I mean GTA IV/ TLatD / TBoGT.. all very good stories and in my personal opinion much better than Mafia 2...

However, good show though.. enjoyed it.

[TheResistance]

One of the worst things to come out of this generation is patches and system updates. I have this weird thing about expecting to be able to put in a game and just play, but instead I often have to wait for 30 minutes to an hour to be able to play. It sucks!

I do not want digital distribution to become the standard for consoles... I really don't want to wait over 2 days to download a next generation Final Fantasy, over a day for Metal Gear Solid 4 or almost 8 hours for Mass Effect... (God damn DSL) 50 GBs and 2.046 Mbps, 25 GBs and 2.046 Mbps, 7 GBs and 2.046 Mbps http://www.numion.com/Calculators/Time.html

If one console is DD only and one supports retail games, I'm buying the one that supports retail games and avoiding the DD console like it's a PSP Go.


I do love a good box.. and limited edition if I must admit, and the bands I really love... I still buy their CD's... I think there will always be a place for physical formats but DigiDownloads I can see coming up as #1 just as digital singles have completely killed Physical music singles...

If the DigiGames were a ton cheaper and not a rip off like Microsoft's games on demand then maybe I would buy them but you can pick up a copy of Mirrors Edge preowned for like $7... so why pay $20+?

[Z_meista]

Digital game downloads for all games is still far away. Remember, not all parts of the world have decent internet access. A full length game will take an extended period of time to download. Heck, it takes hours on PSN to download games and demos for example.

[Leggo]

One of the worst things to come out of this generation is patches and system updates. I have this weird thing about expecting to be able to put in a game and just play, but instead I often have to wait for 30 minutes to an hour to be able to play. It sucks!

Sounds like someone is a PS3 owner. ;)

[PoorRichard]

The problem with flying cars is that a crash will always be lethal. It would be a problem for the people walking underneath too.

[Broken Cage]

The problem with flying cars is that a crash will always be lethal. It would be a problem for the people walking underneath too.

Walking? Can you imagine if a car fell on your roof?

[Kuromimi]

Man I want a 5.1 surround sound alarm clock. Great show guys.

[Leggo]

I have a clocky alarm clock. It's a true surround sound alarm clock. Mainly because it jumps off your nightstand and rolls around your bed until you hunt it down to turn it off.

[RichMeisterMan]

Digital game downloads for all games is still far away. Remember, not all parts of the world have decent internet access. A full length game will take an extended period of time to download. Heck, it takes hours on PSN to download games and demos for example.


http://laughingsquid.com/wp-content/uploads/internet-speeds-costs-20091026-224733.jpg (http://laughingsquid.com/wp-content/uploads/internet-speeds-costs-20091026-224733.jpg)

The parts of the world that consume this stuff have fast enough internet. As you can see we here in America are certainly not the standard. Plus, anyone that buys their PC games digitally download full games already via their connection. We have the resources to do this.

[Clintos]

as your biggest and probably only fan from Malta, i tend to agree with wombat with regards to the power large retailers have. As you also mentioned during the cagcast large retailers are also a form of marketing for the game developers. That fact further compounds to the retailers power and ability to resist a total digital distribution market.

[eJohnny]

regarding the topic of MS increasing the yearly subscription price for LIVE i think the point isnt that CAGs dont have to pay full price, its that the final price after any discount applied to MSRP will now be higher. for example if the currnet deal price of a 12 month card is $40, that equates to a 20% discount. applying the same discount to the new price come November the net price has risen to $48. personally i dont have any interest in accessing Netflix streaming, ESPN ocho, or facebook on my 360 so to me im paying more for the same thing, the ability to play online.

Not to mention the new "features" Microsoft have added either require an additional subscription (Netflix) or are already free (Facebook). I don't care about sports yet here we go again subsidizing the cost of ESPN just like with Cable TV. If Microsoft wants to charge more for these "features" then they need to move to a tiered service, a lower price for gaming only vs. a higher priced for all the other crap.

BTW I'm trying to be a good consumer and vote w/ my wallet. I bought a PS3 last week and let my XBL account expire down to silver.

Also, for a show supposedly based around cheap gaming, Cheapy, Wombat, and Shipwreck are always quick to say "I don't see a problem" with price increases.

[lowgear26]

Retailers make lots of bank off of Ipod accessories. Thats were all the profit comes in. All those ear buds, cases,protective screens,bling,adapters,recharge stations,alarm stations, ect. Thats were the money is. On a console theres lots of accessories, but in gerneral most people are probably only buying a few at most, but people are always replacing their ear buds.

+1

Retailers offer all these products to get our asses into the stores. Why would everyone go digital? If stores like Wal-Mart and Target offered non physical ways to sell all of your games, they would cut their own throats by reducing foot traffic in their business.

On another topic, as a family man, I can't buy every new game I want. I have other responsibilities in life and a $60 game is not always reasonable for me. I used to be the type to always buy something day 1 when I could afford to but people who only have to look after their own self can have more disposable income for gaming.

If people were forced to shell out for only NEW games, gaming would never be as popular as it has become.

[Z_meista]

http://laughingsquid.com/wp-content/uploads/internet-speeds-costs-20091026-224733.jpg (http://laughingsquid.com/wp-content/uploads/internet-speeds-costs-20091026-224733.jpg)

The parts of the world that consume this stuff have fast enough internet. As you can see we here in America are certainly not the standard. Plus, anyone that buys their PC games digitally download full games already via their connection. We have the resources to do this.

Yet we still don't have it. Not everyone has access to high-speed internet, even here in the good USA. Besides, isn't it easier to just buy the game at the store, pop the game in your console and play?

[KillerRamen]

Yet we still don't have it. Not everyone has access to high-speed internet, even here in the good USA. Besides, isn't it easier to just buy the game at the store, pop the game in your console and play?

I think we'll see more retail games become downloadable as an option, but I do not understand the persistence of some for digital distribution as a standard. I like owning things, I like sales and I like having a game collection.

If a console were to be dd only, the console maker would have a monopoly over the sale of games on their console (unlike downloadable PC games), so that would only ensure super high prices. If you don't believe me, you have to look no further than Xbox Games on Demand and the PSP Go.

I think developers should try both and let the market decide. I think they will find that more people prefer retail games. Like Sony did with the PSP Go. :lol:

[bickle]

That's Apples and Oranges, just as it was when Shipwreck made the comment. Here is why, there is and never has been a physical media to use with the Ipod.

*BZZZZT* Wrong. CD's.

[Calinks]

Alright. I got a few points to make.

First of all. I have only listened to about the last 4 of these cagcast but I must say, they are great entertainment. Thank you for putting these out every week. I listen to them when I go to the gym and it's like I'm not even working out becasue I am being so entertained. Great stuff.

About Mafia 2. I have to agree with Cheapy on this one. Originally I was going to buy this game, the trailers looked great and I have always been a fan of those GTA-esque titles. I played the demo and I was a little disappointed.

Then I read the reviews and I decided not to buy the game. Instead, I gave the game a rent and although I am still happy I didn't drop $60 on it, I think the game overall is a great experience. I really enjoy the atmosphere and I don't mind the driving. The only thing I have a real problem with is the save system. It's a game that tells a compelling story and does a good job of putting you in that time. I do wish there was more to do but it's a great package as is. I wouldn't buy it but I would certainly tell people to play it.

Now about the whole charging for online thing on used games. I understand the developers want every dime they can get for their product. That's natural. At the same time I have to disagree with that method. Whenever you but any tangible product that has multiple uses, you can sell it. Those companies never see any profit.

If I sell my PC to a friend, Dell doesn't get anything. If I sell my Sean John shirt, Puff Daddy isn't going to bust in door asking for 5 bucks. It's how the market has been forever. I can totally understand why a company would want more money but it's not something I like as a consumer at all. Great points you guys about the possible benefits that used games can offer as well. I really disagree with anyone that looks at the used game market as "evil". Everybody does not find it feasible to buy nothing but new games all the time and not everybody who can afford will feel so inclined. If you are on the fence about a title you want to own, will you pay $60?

Lastly, I want to mention one other point that I NEVER see any sites or magizines talk about when discussing this issue. The whole online codes thing really screws over those gamers who rent games. I think there area lot of people that subscribe to a service like Gamefly or Gamerang where they rent games. I am a huge renter, I maybe purchase 5 games a year and I rent everything else. Renters wont be able to access these features that require codes. It would seem a lot of gamers will be affected by this.

[Indifference]

Great show, Wombat seemed to be on the right side of every discussion topic. Keep it up.

And Cheapy why all the Rockstar hate?

[Xeigrich]

I used to work in a Walmart electronics department. In an average day, we might sell 30+ games (that number varies wildly of course, based on new releases, sales, holidays, and so many other factors). Since Walmart doesn't sell anything used, all games are priced $20 to $60, with the exception of "budget" titles that pile up on a shelf to the side. The basic math there is $20 x 30 = $600, on an average day, easily exceeding that if customers are picking up newer titles or high profile titles like Halo or Call of Duty. That is the equivalent to selling 2 or 3 consoles minimum per day, when we typically sold only 2 or 3 home consoles per WEEK. For portables, I only recall a single customer purchasing a PSP, and it was a bundle; we'd probably sell a DS or a DSi every other day. I think part of this is that recently (I worked there last year), was due largely to the fact that most people who play games, already have the console(s) of their choice and are merely buying games for said console(s). This late in the generation, the hardware sale is heavily decreased, even with the revised consoles like PS3 Slim, the new 360, and the DSi on shelves, a lot of people are simply happy with their current hardware.

And as for accessories, you typically only need a few accessories unless you break/lose something or have an itch to try something new, but there are always new games coming out. How many controllers do you need for a PS3? Two on average, the console comes with one already. You might need 2 more if you have a 4 player game, but beyond that, you're not likely to buy another one. For portables, accessories are more of a seller... people lose DS styluii and come in looking for PSP screen protectors are the time, but the biggest sellers have always been the games. In fact, for the most part, the most expensive accessories -- special instrument controllers and wireless controllers -- usually top out in the $50 to $60 range, just like games, but how many Rock Band Drumsets are sold compared to copies of, say, Red Dead Redemption? (Note: these are just impromptu examples, I really have no idea how the sales stats compare).

[mrangrypants]

I can see big box stores selling download codes/cards for full games rather than disks. The down side to this would be mostly for the customers where you go to the store to get a game and you can't play it as soon as you get home you'll have to download it. That could be a reason that things won't go to a digital format anytime soon.

[WonkyToad]

Wombat - I was taken back when I heard you mention the WTF podcast. I have been a long time listener to Marc Maron as well as CAG and glad to see there are others like me.

[Broken Cage]

*BZZZZT* Wrong. CD's.

Sure, just link me to the Ipod that plays CDs...

And if you say people ripped CDs to make MP3s, you didn't read any of my post.

[RichMeisterMan]

Yet we still don't have it. Not everyone has access to high-speed internet, even here in the good USA. Besides, isn't it easier to just buy the game at the store, pop the game in your console and play?

Your argument was that highspeed internet access is playing a part in why more games aren't on demand or why digital distribution isn't more popular. The graph I posted shows otherwise, and that America is by no means the standard for highspeed internet. Cheapy can vouch for the lightning like speed of Japan's internet access; he's talked before about his downloads taking minutes for huge ass demos and what not.

I think the amount of people that are avid gamers and have current gen consoles and dial up is slim to none. As is current gen consoles practically require highspeed connection to be worth a damn with game updates and the like.

And, no. I do not think going to the store and having to physically put a disc in and out of a console is easier than just sitting in your easy chair, powering up the console, and purchasing the game, and waiting for a download while I make a sandwich or run some errands. Then for the future all I have to do is take a seat, fire up my console with the controller and pick from a list, no disc swapping required! This of course is splitting hairs, as I have no problem with going to the store to buy games or swapping stuff out of the disc tray, but it's certainly not easier.

Keep in mind though, that current console digital distribution is absolute garbage and no one should buy an xbox game or PS title digitally if there is a physical avenue for which to buy.

[Broken Cage]

I think the amount of people that are avid gamers and have current gen consoles and dial up is slim to none. As is current gen consoles practically require highspeed connection to be worth a damn with game updates and the like.

Are console manufacturers currently going after the avid gamer market or the casual gamer market? Is Move and Natal designed to bring in the avid gamer market?

Money is what matters, and having games on shelves, in front of people's faces, is better than locking them away on a proprietary console. Not to mention the benefit it has to actually selling consoles. Nobody buys an Xbox 360 to have an Xbox 360, they buy it to play Halo. If you couldn't see Halo until AFTER you bought the Xbox (or suddenly became an avid gamer on CAG), you'd never even care to touch a 360.

Edit: If you'd like to test this, ask any casual you know what their favorite game from the OnLive catalogue is.

[Ultramontane]

Screw Pachter, lets hear it for Wombat the business analyst!!!!!

Good discussion on the used game market. If you guys (or anyone in the community) could find a breakdown on revenue flow comparing purchasing a new game vs. a used game or even digital distribution, I think that would make for a great episode.

I've also asked myself where does my dollar finally split when buying a game online vs. large box store vs. a used game from wherever.. google please?

[syd411]

Unless you're getting the Wave Radio system (the alarm clock) which is actually good, avoid the tiny Bose cube speakers. They really don't sound good in most homes. Bose requires the displays at BestBuy and the like to have their stuff separate from any other speakers, so you can't do a direct comparison. Plus they put it in that cagey thing with the rear speakers 18 inches from your head, so of course they sound good. I had these for a while and was unimpressed. Plus you can't use your own speaker wire, just the crappy Bose branded wire, and the subwoofer on the Bose Home Theater systems is the size of a mid-tower PC case.

If you're going the Sound Bar route, the Yamaha is about as good as you can get, but the ones around the $800-1000 mark are pretty good too (that's you, Ship).

I would just get some nice 5.1 speakers (Mirage, Harman Kardon, or Klipsch) and a decent 12" Sub. Most 5.1 speakers are pretty damned small now, and you just mount them on the wall above where little humans can knock them over. Check out Vanns.com (or Crutchfield.com) they have really good selection and seem to know what they're talking about, then of course, buy them at Amazon.

[Gamer SDP]

so there's such a thing as peach juice?

[kashwashwa]

Shipwreck - forget that Bose receiver... if you're looking for a slim receiver that is actually decent, I highly doubt there's anything you'll find that could beat the Marantz slim receiver's for the price.

http://www.amazon.com/Marantz-NR1501-Slim-Theater-Receiver/dp/B002DUCO54

As far as speakers, even Klipsch uses shitty components in their mid-range stuff.

I don't really follow speakers you can buy off the shelf, I just know that you can build speakers that sound like $1k for around $200 worth of parts. And that's why I could never justify or recommend buying a speaker off the shelf.


Also... ringtone... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61NVdQw0TDU

[mrlogical]

Reading the Penny Arcade article you were discussing, (which it sounds like maybe not all of you had read? http://www.penny-arcade.com/2010/8/25/) I don't see them having judged anyone for buying used games. Tycho simply agreed with THQ (as did the three of you, I think) that it's okay for developers to use things like single use DLC codes to encourage people to buy their games new. The comparison of used game buyers to pirates wasn't a moral comparison, it was about the technical definition of the relationship between a used game purchaser and the developer. Sure, someone who buys used games probably buys other games new, and maybe buys more games than they would if not for used games (note all of that also may apply to pirates); but because there is no transaction between them and the developer for that game, developers are free to design in favor of people who buy their games new.

I don't disagree with many of your points about the used games industry, but it sounded to me like you also agreed with everything Tycho said before you told him to go fuck himself (which I understand was at least mostly a joke). As consumers, we are entitled to buy games however makes the most sense for us, and it's not our responsibility to make sure that developers make money for their games. At the same time, as long as we haven't given our money to a developer for a game, they don't have any obligation to care about whether we get what we want out of the game if we buy it used. There might be good reasons from a practical perspective for consumers to care about supporting developers or for developers to care about people who buy their games used, but I wouldn't condemn anyone for declining to care about the other.

Listening to your comments about the XBox Live price hike, I agree--it's annoying, and was poorly executed, but meh, it's $10, oh well. I was thinking, however, if there's not another reason behind this seemingly poorly-timed announcement: notice of an impending price increase means lots of us are going out and spending $30-50 on additional XBox Live subscriptions now when we otherwise might not spend that money for a year or so. In the short term, that money is all profit for Microsoft, particularly for those of us whose subscriptions weren't set to expire for months. Maybe as we're approaching the end of the year, MSFT was just looking for some extra cash in their financial reports? Maybe not, since they're probably on a fiscal year system instead of calendar year, and September sees the release of a game with Halo in its title, but you never know, I guess.

[Broken Cage]

As consumers, we are entitled to buy games however makes the most sense for us, and it's not our responsibility to make sure that developers make money for their games. At the same time, as long as we haven't given our money to a developer for a game, they don't have any obligation to care about whether we get what we want out of the game if we buy it used. There might be good reasons from a practical perspective for consumers to care about supporting developers or for developers to care about people who buy their games used, but I wouldn't condemn anyone for declining to care about the other.

The problem I have is that it's a strong arm tactic. THQ didn't develop a new game mode or a new business model, they just said, "Fuck it, if you're not paying us, we're taking our ball and going home." So as a customer, who has only ever purchased ONE THQ game used, I feel unsatisfied.

I don't like the idea that a company will just come along and say, "Hey, we're not making as much money as we used to, so instead of changing anything, we're just going to figure out how to punish this other market that didn't pay us." That attitude can be more detrimental to this industry than used games if it isn't checked. The gaming industry already had a "to hell with the customer, profit, profit, profit" mentality once, and it crashed the entire thing.

However, I can't form a winning argument here. Nobody seems to feel like publishers are the least bit responsible for their business models. It's not THQ's fault if they're not making a ton of money, it's the used games market, it's piracy, it's people waiting for sales. It's always something else.

Maybe if THQ didn't publish Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader?, Baby Pals, American Girl, Alex Rider, Bratz 4 Real, Bratz: Girlz Really Rock, Bratz: Super Babyz, and countless Nickelodeon/Pixar licensed games, they'd have some extra scratch to throw around.

I mean seriously, you can count THQ's notable IPs on one hand, but it's the used games industry's fault if they don't make enough money?

Finally, I bought Darksiders new, I was supposed to get Red Faction for free, but because the NEW game sat on the shelf too long, the code didn't work. So I bought Red Faction used.

(and again, I'm sorry for the rant.)

Edit: And can we all agree that the publisher probably doesn't care if you get what you want out of a game even if you do pay them?

[Calinks]

Screw Pachter, lets hear it for Wombat the business analyst!!!!!

Good discussion on the used game market. If you guys (or anyone in the community) could find a breakdown on revenue flow comparing purchasing a new game vs. a used game or even digital distribution, I think that would make for a great episode.

I've also asked myself where does my dollar finally split when buying a game online vs. large box store vs. a used game from wherever.. google please?

Hey man, Love your avatar pic. That's from Carnivale right? Love that show!

[Z_meista]

Your argument was that highspeed internet access is playing a part in why more games aren't on demand or why digital distribution isn't more popular. The graph I posted shows otherwise, and that America is by no means the standard for highspeed internet. Cheapy can vouch for the lightning like speed of Japan's internet access; he's talked before about his downloads taking minutes for huge ass demos and what not.

I think the amount of people that are avid gamers and have current gen consoles and dial up is slim to none. As is current gen consoles practically require highspeed connection to be worth a damn with game updates and the like.

And, no. I do not think going to the store and having to physically put a disc in and out of a console is easier than just sitting in your easy chair, powering up the console, and purchasing the game, and waiting for a download while I make a sandwich or run some errands. Then for the future all I have to do is take a seat, fire up my console with the controller and pick from a list, no disc swapping required! This of course is splitting hairs, as I have no problem with going to the store to buy games or swapping stuff out of the disc tray, but it's certainly not easier.

High speed internet access is just one of the many factors why digital distribution is not popular yet. As some have stated earlier, it also comes down to personal preference. You also said that our high speed internet is not up to standard. This adds frustration to consumers. Let's say a new game is released. How long are you gong to wait for your next Halo, Mass Effect, or Call of Duty to download on your console? Wouldn't it be easier to buy the game on a disc and play it when you get home? You can also buy said games when you're running your errands (e.g. grocery).

Even the most avid of gamers start out as casual gamers. That's how Nintendo is making money.

[sinewav]

Thanks Cheapy for reading my CAGbag question on this podcast. Knowing that a mere mortal like me can contribute to the show in some way however small makes me glad to be a listener of your show.

And Shipwreck I'm very much liking your new Twitter war monger persona, look forward to the next battle of words.

[RichMeisterMan]

High speed internet access is just one of the many factors why digital distribution is not popular yet. As some have stated earlier, it also comes down to personal preference. You also said that our high speed internet is not up to standard. This adds frustration to consumers. Let's say a new game is released. How long are you gong to wait for your next Halo, Mass Effect, or Call of Duty to download on your console? Wouldn't it be easier to buy the game on a disc and play it when you get home? You can also buy said games when you're running your errands (e.g. grocery).

Even the most avid of gamers start out as casual gamers. That's how Nintendo is making money.
Services could offer a preinstall. Like on steam you can install a game days sometimes even a week or more before it's released so as soon as it's unlocked you can play!

Are console manufacturers currently going after the avid gamer market or the casual gamer market? Is Move and Natal designed to bring in the avid gamer market?

Money is what matters, and having games on shelves, in front of people's faces, is better than locking them away on a proprietary console. Not to mention the benefit it has to actually selling consoles. Nobody buys an Xbox 360 to have an Xbox 360, they buy it to play Halo. If you couldn't see Halo until AFTER you bought the Xbox (or suddenly became an avid gamer on CAG), you'd never even care to touch a 360.

Edit: If you'd like to test this, ask any casual you know what their favorite game from the OnLive catalogue is.

Cool story, bro!

My point was that digital distribution's lack of popularity isn't due to a lack of high speed internet around the world. So I don't know why you are taking a sentence out of my entire post, blowing it up into an issue and stating the obvious.

[Broken Cage]

Cool story, bro!

My point was that digital distribution's lack of popularity isn't due to a lack of high speed internet around the world. So I don't know why you are taking a sentence out of my entire post, blowing it up into an issue and stating the obvious.


He opens with douchey internet memes! I can tell this is going to go downhill quickly.

Z_Meista said,

Yet we still don't have it. Not everyone has access to high-speed internet, even here in the good USA.

You responded,

I think the amount of people that are avid gamers and have current gen consoles and dial up is slim to none. As is current gen consoles practically require highspeed connection to be worth a damn with game updates and the like.


and I responded,

Are console manufacturers currently going after the avid gamer market or the casual gamer market? Is Move and Natal designed to bring in the avid gamer market?


If your comment meant nothing, and shouldn't have been addressed, why did you even make it? Then again, judging from your "Cool Story, Bro!" you might just really enjoy saying a bunch of meaningless shit.

You commented about avid gamers and their internet connections in the context of your post responding to Z saying "not everyone has high speed internet", don't try to turn around and say "No no! I wasn't talking about that! I meant this!" just because it wasn't the entirety of your post.


Edit: And I'm having a total sense of deja vu. Have we had this argument before?

[RichMeisterMan]

It was a throw away sentence! You're letting too much ride on it. I'm sure even people that have just a wii and a copy carnival games probably have high speed internet.

My point remains the same. A lack of high speed internet is not the reason why publishers aren't more into digital distribution. I used the word avid, and I shouldn't have because really what I meant to say is that anyone that is hip enough to have any kind of current gen console has probably gone beyond booping and beeping their way to the internet.

As far as dejavu goes, I have talked about digital distribution in other cagcast show threads and usually it leads to disagreements and quarrels because digital distribution is a love or hate kind of thing; there is no in between. However, right now I am not talking about whether or not it's awesome or gay. Just that a lack of broadband is not a factor in it not being the cool kid at school.

Edit: Let's quit saying the word "avid". We used it too much; it's the kind of word we can just keep throwin' around.

[Broken Cage]

It was a throw away sentence! You're letting too much ride on it. I'm sure even people that have just a wii and a copy carnival games probably have high speed internet.

My point remains the same. A lack of high speed internet is not the reason why publishers aren't more into digital distribution. I used the word avid, and I shouldn't have because really what I meant to say is that anyone that is hip enough to have any kind of current gen console has probably gone beyond booping and beeping their way to the internet.

As far as dejavu goes, I have talked about digital distribution in other cagcast show threads and usually it leads to disagreements and quarrels because digital distribution is a love or hate kind of thing; there is no in between. However, right now I am not talking about whether or not it's awesome or gay. Just that a lack of broadband is not a factor in it not being the cool kid at school.

Fair enough.

I'll save the rest for when we are arguing the merits of digital distribution.

[quasicat]

Although I visit this site often, I rarely leave any comments; I do want to take this time to say that I really enjoy having Shipwreck on the show. The chemistry between Cheapy and Wombat has always been great, but since Ship has been on the show, I think you guys have really taken off with the quality of the discussions and topics.

I think everyone has their specific spots where they look at game reviews, CAG has recently become a big one for me that I check out on the main page.

Keep it up guys.

[Zaku77]

Never posted in here before. I love the show and look forward to listening to it in my boring warehouse full of hair care products! As far as your talk about the Medal Of Honor controversy overy playing as the towel heads. I see why people have an issue with it, and I think the difference comes down to time. Nazis were years and years ago. Most WW 2 vets aren't even alive anymore. The Taliban thing is not only recent but ongoing. It's a sore subject that hasn't even had time to rest yet as it is still going on. I think that it's in bad taste for right now, but will be acceptable in the future just like nazis and veotcong have become.

[Microshock]

Some issues here, first on GTA4. CheapyD, don't you know what cheats are fucking for? They're to help you have more fun. You could've used them 2 years ago to let you finish the game already.

The whole fun of GTA4 is fighting cops and fleeing from cops in an amazingly built city. Not that hard to get it.

Also, Shipwreck is so fucking blatant pro-Microsoft all the time it's just getting annoying. So you're saying Sony is at fault for Xbox Live being 60?
Xbox Live was a rip-off at 50 bucks. You got shitty voice chat, P2P MP, invites, in-game chat and like 3 websites for 50 a year.
Now it's even more of a rip-off and all you do is defend it. They touted Netflix as a feature! OH BOY, I GET TO PAY TO PAY TO WATCH NETFLIX!

I think little Shippy thinks hes funny for trying to be controversial like Wombat.

Oh and by the way, stop self-censoring yourself by saying the "N word" instead of the real one. It's your podcast and free speech should not be affected by some panzys.

In reference to this digital vs retail fight going on in this thread, retail always wins. Retail always provides better prices, better value, and full control over your product.
Plus, no one wants to get a freaking download code as a gift.

[Narynan]

Bose is a bit of a joke. So SOOOO much better stuff in the same price range. If you hook up a link as to WHAT you were looking at... I can get you an alternate offer.

Also realize that the 4000 model is a virtual 4 speaker system. 4100 has the subwoofer included. And 5/100 has the center speaker involved.

[combatrhombus]

We just finished our basement and I had been investigating surround systems when I became quite enamored of soundbars. Those Yamaha models you mentioned are really nice, Cheapy. I think you'd be more than pleased with one of those. I decided on an even smaller model, because my room is just not all that big. I got the Sony HTCT 150, which is <$300 and pumps out a ridiculous amount of sound. The surround effect is decent, but not on par with the Yamahas--but the sound quality is stellar. The other thing I love about the soundbar solution is the lack of wires. I run four HDMIs into the subwoofer and a single HDMI out to the TV, and that's it. And the HDMI handshake makes it so I control the volume of the system with my TV remote--even though they're different brands--without programming it to do so. Pretty sweet. Oh, and the HTCT is also fully 3D compatible if it matters to you (it did to me--you are right about Motorstorm in 3D. It's amazing). Here are some pics to show just how small the little bastard is:


Here are some nice small speakers that are not that one company(I don't want to MARKET them anymore), these Energy ones are mirco http://www.crutchfield.com/p_732RCMIC/Energy-RC-Micro-5-1.html?search=energy.

A sound bar sounds interesting and probably perfect for an apartment, I'm sick of have to turn my TV volume to 30-40 just so I can here the voices clearly. I would want something with HDMI switching so far I like this Sony one. I'm looking in the sub $400 range...a decent one below $300 would be awesome.

[blacksanta87]

Bose systems are for pompous douche bags.

[bombatomba]

So Bose is like Apple?

UPDATE: Lol at blacksanta87. I didn't read the last post before I posted. Unintentional, but very funny anyways. Also somewhat true.

[blacksanta87]

So Bose is like Apple?

haha You sure are right, bose is EXACTLY like apple. That's how they sucker people into buying their elegant crap for outrageous prices. 3 grand for a 5.1 system with satalite speakers??? No BLU ray??? Im insulted just looking at that price tag. It's like buying a $90 dollar pair of jeans, at the end of the day you're an idiot. (but hey, w/e it's your money.)

[FriskyTanuki]

The thing that bugs me about Metroid: Other M is that the story is so cheesy and full of odd Japanese touches. I didn't need Samus to all of a sudden start having internal monologues to explain things I didn't really care about in great detail. She was a teenage girl in the Galactic Federation (or whatever it's called) that played the rebellious teen role before leaving to make it big on her own to show all of the people that doubted her abilities. Then having her abilities/upgrades now being tied to the story so that her former commander has to approve their use rather than just finding them the normal way is an arbitrary explanation for a mechanic that didn't need it.

I'll blow Wombat's mind right now and say that I do not have an HDTV while having owned an Xbox 360 and PS3 for about three years now. I do have a monitor I use for whenever I want to play games in HD, but SD is fine for most games. A lot of downloadable games even offer the ability to alter the screen size to better fit your HD or SD display, so developers need to better adapt their HUD and interfaces for multiple resolutions. I'll probably get an HDTV sometime this fall to get rid of this huge SDTV once and for all and to save some space in my set-up.

My biggest issue with the XBL price increase is that a lot of the features/apps they promote as a big part of the service require a separate subscription (Netflix, Hulu Plus, and some parts of last.fm) or aren't available depending on the ISP in the US (ESPN). If you're going to increase the cost, which will also increase the price of the sales, I expect more useful features that are useful to everyone with no added costs to even use them. I'd also like the dashboard to be overhauled and trimmed of the fat (long load times and bloated, random layout) so it feels like I'm paying for my experience with the system as a whole to be better because I pay for Gold. I would have liked to hear what Microsoft has in store for Xbox Live in the future to make the price increase make sense rather than being an out-of-nowhere increase that serves no purpose.

I'd get the new Xbox 360 controller if MS were offering it by itself and Amazon could sell it for $30 like the other wireless controllers they're selling right now.

Major Nelson is Microsoft's PR guy, so I don't feel bad for him whenever he has to post bad news on the official Xbox Live PR site. He's the main guy people bitch at for any bad news that Microsoft has to announce, so this is nothing new. He deals with it by ignoring them.

I don't think the Activison/Infinity Ward or the Star Wars: TFU situations are the norm for how publishers and developers deal with the bonuses/cuts for sales, as you don't hear about that stuff since that's a private thing between those companies and their people. I prefer to support developers by buying their games new whenever possible since even a little bit of my money going to them is better than nothing at all and I'd like to help the developers I like stay around to make more games.

Good show.

[Curufinwe]

Screw Pachter, lets hear it for Wombat the business analyst!!!!!

Wombat would be a much better business analyst than Pachter. Look at what he had to say about NetFlix a few years ago:

http://www.smartmoney.com/investing/stocks/whats-next-for-netflix-16905/

"Netflix is a worthless piece of crap with really nice people running it," says Michael Pachter, an analyst at Wedbush Morgan Securities in Los Angeles, who cut his target price to a merciless $3 a share and maintained the Sell rating with which he initiated coverage of the stock in September. "I don't mean that they're doing anything wrong. They have a wonderful idea, but it's not a sustainable business. I wish they would make it — they deserve to make it. But in the Internet, all the success stories tend to be multiple channels, [offer] multiple products, or have a brick-and-mortar component. At the end of the day, there's only one line of business going on at Netflix."

[URABAHN]

I read the oh-so-controversial Other M review by G4TV's Abbie Heppe and I found it refreshing. Many wondered what Metroid would be like with more story & more character development and it sounds like Team Ninja made poor choices. I don't think you can chalk this up to fanboys disliking this flavor of Metroid (you got story in MY Metroid!). Some fundamental story mistakes were made and some terrible gameplay through plot ideas were implemented. I bought a Gamecube just so I could play Metroid Prime. I don't think I'll buy a Wii for Other M.

[bmulligan]

As Cheapy was discussing his Xbox Live marketing strategy, I was coming to the same conclusion: Give the customer something of low cost and high perceived value when announcing a price increase. How about a free game a month like PSN +, or maybe a discount on low selling Arcade titles? I find it amazing that MS didn't have a roundtable with the PR reps to come to this same conclusion, and maybe bring up consumer backlash concerns. I guess MS has just taken their marketplace for granted and now feels they can do whatever the hell they feel like doing because it seems to have worked for Sony all these years.

Yeah, most CAGs swear by $30 Live deals, but something tells me that at $60, these deals will never be seen again, and $49.99 now sounds like a good deal. I'm also wondering if this price increase had anything to do with the Activision/ Kotick controversy. Are the major distributors now getting a piece of this coincidentally timed price increase?

[Davestation]

Just listened to both cagcasts and do not recall wich show talked about wich topics. Retail stores do not get a chance to return games for a credit, only on universal price drops. They only get to return music and movies. If retailers got to return video games we would not see Target clearancing games off up to 75% and Kmart clearancing them up to 90% off.

Also that mettacritic review for Laura Croft from the AV Club sounds like the onion newspaper. They have a section called the AV Club that reviews entertainment. If it is an Onion review it should not be on the site. That would explain why the writer said some of those comments.

[Stahlbrand]

On the subject of used games, and Penny Arcade's opinion:

It is always grating to hear Shipwreck (who I otherwise like) build an argument, on the spot, about something he knows nothing about, and then harp on it for another five minutes. He started off asking how the retail/publisher/developer split went on new game sales (which is complicated) and then decided that used games somehow still support the publisher, but not the developer, which is incorrect.

Used games sales go straight to the retailer, and neither the developer nor the publisher see a red cent. This really becomes an issue when you look at the number of used copies of new games available in the first week after release for $5 bucks less than the new game, which stay at $5 bucks under new for months to follow. Lots of people go to pick up a game in the first week of its release (and for months to follow) and think "fuck, I'll save five bucks" and buy a used copy - so that huge pile of sales at $54.99 end up staying with with the retailer, while only on the new sales do they see a cut.

People who buy the used copy for a whopping $5 savings are not putting any cash at all into the pockets of the publisher or developer; zero dollars. The retailer gets to pocket at least twice as much off of a used sale than a new sale, so they make out like bandits by paying shit small credits for used games and turning them around for nearly full retail price.

Those who get the games used, from the perspective of the publisher and developers, are no better than shoplifters or pirates. IMO, they could be seen as worse, because they are willing to pay almost then whole retail price, but not to the people who create or bankroll the creation and distribution of the game.

I think this 'project ten dollar' deterrent stuff is a fantastic response to the situation. People can go ahead and buy used games, but if they feel judged, put out, or ripped off by this kind of thing, they can go fuck themselves.

[smoger]

On the subject of used games, and Penny Arcade's opinion:

It is always grating to hear Shipwreck (who I otherwise like) build an argument, on the spot, about something he knows nothing about, and then harp on it for another five minutes. He started off asking how the retail/publisher/developer split went on new game sales (which is complicated) and then decided that used games somehow still support the publisher, but not the developer, which is incorrect.

Used games sales go straight to the retailer, and neither the developer nor the publisher see a red cent. This really becomes an issue when you look at the number of used copies of new games available in the first week after release for $5 bucks less than the new game, which stay at $5 bucks under new for months to follow. Lots of people go to pick up a game in the first week of its release (and for months to follow) and think "fuck, I'll save five bucks" and buy a used copy - so that huge pile of sales at $54.99 end up staying with with the retailer, while only on the new sales do they see a cut.

People who buy the used copy for a whopping $5 savings are not putting any cash at all into the pockets of the publisher or developer; zero dollars. The retailer gets to pocket at least twice as much off of a used sale than a new sale, so they make out like bandits by paying shit small credits for used games and turning them around for nearly full retail price.

Those who get the games used, from the perspective of the publisher and developers, are no better than shoplifters or pirates. IMO, they could be seen as worse, because they are willing to pay almost then whole retail price, but not to the people who create or bankroll the creation and distribution of the game.

I think this 'project ten dollar' deterrent stuff is a fantastic response to the situation. People can go ahead and buy used games, but if they feel judged, put out, or ripped off by this kind of thing, they can go fuck themselves.

The simple solution to all these alleged used copies being available the week that the game releases is.... for publishers to release games that people want to keep for more than a week. Is that a difficult concept for anyone to grasp? Seems obvious to me.

It's been said a million times, but used game sales are not a unique problem.. it's a "problem" in any non-consumable goods market, and yet somehow people have been profiting for decades selling electronics, books, cars, furniture, cd's, dvd's, etc.

Punishing the consumer is never the "right" answer. Just the easy one.

[shipwreck]

It is always grating to hear Shipwreck (who I otherwise like) build an argument, on the spot, about something he knows nothing about, and then harp on it for another five minutes. He started off asking how the retail/publisher/developer split went on new game sales (which is complicated) and then decided that used games somehow still support the publisher, but not the developer, which is incorrect.

I don't remember making this argument or asking that question. If I did, I certainly didn't mean that developers and publishers get a direct cut of used game sales. They can benefit from it less directly in several ways though: people buy new games because they know they can trade them in, people trade games in so they can afford new games, etc.

[Stahlbrand]

The simple solution to all these alleged used copies being available the week that the game releases is.... for publishers to release games that people want to keep for more than a week. Is that a difficult concept for anyone to grasp? Seems obvious to me.

It's been said a million times, but used game sales are not a unique problem.. it's a "problem" in any non-consumable goods market, and yet somehow people have been profiting for decades selling electronics, books, cars, furniture, cd's, dvd's, etc.

Punishing the consumer is never the "right" answer. Just the easy one.

Those games that are on the used pegs in the first weeks are there in large part because there are people who rip disc images for use with modded systems (a whole different can of worms), and to a lesser extent because of people who have more money than sense and short attention spans, maybe, I dunno.

Used software is distinct from the other examples because (prior to efforts like 'project ten dollars') the value of a game does not degrade when it has been 'used'. The new $60 dollar copy is functionally identical to the $55 used copy. A new $20 000 car is markedly more valuable than a 5 year old used car for $5 000, even a used book is a little shittier than a new one. There is a value trade off in buying used items in pretty much any case, except for games, unless the publishers incentivize new sales, creating an aspect of the item that will degrade with use - a consumable code for bonus content or online play in this case.

If I'm opening my wallet, I'm going to think about where the money goes - to a retail store that buys used games and turns them around at a ridiculous mark-up, or to the people who created and delivered the game? My stance is that the difference of $5 bucks is worth it to see the Biowares and Harmonixes of the world get rewarded for putting such great stuff together, and yes, even to the EAs and Activisions for putting up the bankroll to get those games made, rather than reward some slightly slimy business practice of a national retail franchise.

This kind of thing does nothing to punish consumers, as far as I can see. You can buy the game new, get the unique code for bonus content or online play and apart from punching in a code one time, live like you always have, or you can buy used and have to pay an extra $10 for the bonus content or online play - the choice is still yours, maybe the extra stuff isn't worth the money or of interest to you.


@Shipwreck

Well, perhaps I've got the name wrong, might it have been Wombat? I wrote that comment right after listening to that segment while washing the dishes, so the facts were fresh in my head, but I'm kinda bad with keeping which voice goes to which name straight in my head. My apologies if I called out the wrong co-host.

That is a point about people who ride the trade-in wave, hocking their most recent game to buy the next one, but if they're going from used game to used game rather than buying new it doesn't change anything about the situation.

Honestly the thought of that just makes me sad. I've played games since I was 5 with a brand new NES, and I've bought games since I had my own money, and the idea of pawning these things, even if I don't replay some games, is just depressing. I try to avoid clutter, but pitching the physical objects around which the memories and experiences of my youth are tied just to buy the next one is something I couldn't do. Its like when you ask a baby-boomer about the LPs they used to own.

[smoger]

Those games that are on the used pegs in the first weeks are there in large part because there are people who rip disc images for use with modded systems (a whole different can of worms), and to a lesser extent because of people who have more money than sense and short attention spans, maybe, I dunno.

And you think this tiny niche of consumers is enough to derail the profitability of these corporations? Why do you presume these people ripping games are buying retail and selling them back instead of renting them or simply downloading them? Are we to believe that people are also doing this with PS3 games, DS games, and PSP games?

Used software is distinct from the other examples because (prior to efforts like 'project ten dollars') the value of a game does not degrade when it has been 'used'. The new $60 dollar copy is functionally identical to the $55 used copy.

What about a cd or dvd degrades after it's been used? The "digital copy" that the movie industry wants you to think you don't have a right to create on your own?

If I'm opening my wallet, I'm going to think about where the money goes - to a retail store that buys used games and turns them around at a ridiculous mark-up, or to the people who created and delivered the game? My stance is that the difference of $5 bucks is worth it to see the Biowares and Harmonixes of the world get rewarded for putting such great stuff together, and yes, even to the EAs and Activisions for putting up the bankroll to get those games made, rather than reward some slightly slimy business practice of a national retail franchise.

..and that's fine.. but it's not a concern of the average consumer. I'm not even defending Gamestop here.. their $5 discount on used titles is an insult to consumers and I tend to avoid them entirely for the most part. In fact, since the industry itself is proving that the "every game is worth $60 model" does NOT work, by use of a site like this there is absolutely no reason to buy used most of the time, even to save money.

However, I will argue adamantly the consumers RIGHT to do so if they please.

This kind of thing does nothing to punish consumers, as far as I can see. You can buy the game new, get the unique code for bonus content or online play and apart from punching in a code one time, live like you always have, or you can buy used and have to pay an extra $10 for the bonus content or online play - the choice is still yours, maybe the extra stuff isn't worth the money or of interest to you.

..and what happens when i dig out my copy of Mass Effect 2 in 10 years and I can no longer complete the achievements because there is no way to download Zaaed?(just 1 example). To this day I still occasionally play games like Super Mario Bros(and SMB3), Zelda 3, etc.. and everytime i play them they are FULL experiences because they don't have to rely on servers to obtain content.

Also, there's the obvious problem of what if your console breaks or you buy a second one? I know ea links this content to an ea account so you are probably ok, but will every company jumping on this bandwagon do that? ..or will they take the easy route and tie the game to your console?

..and probably the most immediate problem is this.. once a lot of the initial batch of buyers leaves these games behind, the online servers could end up being ghost towns, and everyone who still wants to play online will have a much harder time finding matches. empty multiplayer servers could have people trading in those games even more than they do already.

[saunderscowie]

What would you guys think if Microsoft kept gold membership at the same price but added a completely new level of membership. "Platinum" say $100/£70 which contains "new exciting features" - such as the bigger friends list, earlier access to content, exclusive DLC and so on. And say if you upgrade from gold you get a % off the price.

Do you think that would be more successful than what they're currently doing right now? Do you think many people would upgrade? Would you guys upgrade?

[TooMuchCoolness]

Interesting, informative show, fellas. I like when you talk more about the game industry than the games itself.

[RichMeisterMan]

What would you guys think if Microsoft kept gold membership at the same price but added a completely new level of membership. "Platinum" say $100/£70 which contains "new exciting features" - such as the bigger friends list, earlier access to content, exclusive DLC and so on. And say if you upgrade from gold you get a % off the price.

Do you think that would be more successful than what they're currently doing right now? Do you think many people would upgrade? Would you guys upgrade?

I for one would not upgrade. What M$ offers in terms of a service for my 50 bucks is piss poor, and I used to actually defend the cost. At this point though we don't get enough. I don't feel like we are so much getting something for our 50 dollars as much as people that don't pay are having things taken away.

We get early access to a demo from time to time, some few and far between shitty discounts on games/content that you've either already bought or have zero interest in. Usually when you pay to be a member of something like this it pays for itself over time; xbox live does not do that. Everything costs money on XBL, even the shit publishers want to put out for free because M$ isn't a big fan of free.

For a year+ I have been really into PC gaming and as far as online play goes I do it on the PC now. I don't have to pay for "live" and I get dedicated servers. I play Battlefield: Bad Company 2 with more people and for less money and that's the bottom line. Games also look better. I would never renew my subscription at the new rate.

Keep in mind; I'm not lookin' to play Halo. If Halo is your cup of tea then I can understand the willingness to pay. Halo is pretty much the only game though that is worth a damn that you can't play else where.

[donkeydrop]

I don't remember making this argument or asking that question.

That's because you didn't; it was Wombat. I'm pretty sure that Wombat's point (that he never really got to because the discussion got off track) was that the publisher gets their money from a retailer not from the gamer who ultimately buys that "new" game. So by extension of the Penny Arcade logic, even the consumer of a new game is no better than a pirate, and Gamestop should just melt down all those new games rather than sell them.

Also, as you said publishers do benefit indirectly from used game sales. The most important way is that the ability to re-sell the game keeps the price of new games higher than it would be otherwise. If the ability to re-sell games magically disappeared overnight then basic economics makes it certain that the dollar amount of games sold would decrease by a corresponding amount. Which means either:

- less games sold, or
- games sell slower as more people wait for the price drop, or
- price of new games decreases

[donkeydrop]

Wombat's core argument is that retailers make their money off of the software sales, and that without that they have no reason to sell hardware. This is false. Ipod argument stands.

The Ipod really isn't a good argument for anything. As mentioned in the podcast many stores didn't sell iPods in the early days because Apple is like the Gestapo when it comes to controlling prices and gives retailers only the tiniest profit margin. In the electronics business retailers aren't use to getting grocery store price margins. Things changed because:

(a) Apple sells 100 million units a year (more than a whole lifetime of a console), and
(b) there are now lots of high profit accessories to sell

Game consoles just don't sell enough to justify the tiny retail margins unless there is the prospect of more profit from the games.

[WiresMcGee]

I've been listening to the CAGCast for about 3 years and its still the only podcast I never miss. These guys don't take themselves too seriously, yet they still share insightful commentary on everything from games to fatherhood to everyday experiences. My wife has been listening for about 2 months and she's hooked.

[donkeydrop]

Having just finished Mafia 2 I have to agree with Cheapy's positive comments. I also think that many reviewers give a false impression about the amount of driving. I actually drove a lesser percentage of the time than in GTA4 (about 20% and it would have been more like 15% if I didn't spend time doing some optional stuff for achievements).

I think most reviewers are used to the GTA model of driving top speed, metal soundtrack blaring, without regard to other vehicles, traffic laws, and mowing down pedestrians. Then you jump out and right away start blasting 50 bad guys. If that's your standard then maybe Mafia 2, with stopping to talk to the boss or your partner before a mission, just doesn't get to the shooting fast enough for the reviewers, and that makes them think of it as a "driving game". The driving model is better than GTA, the visuals are better, the soundtrack is great, there's none of that drive 10 mins back to the mission if you fail it, and as I said to start the actual amount of driving is no greater than GTA4. So I really can't see why the driving is an issue.

If I had any criticism it would be the lack of non-story related activities. But then in GTA4 I did each activity exactly once to try them and never went back, so it's not like the standard is set high. Saint's Row is the only similar game I can think of that actually did mini games that you want to replay.

[bgame2]

Cheapy, Wombat & Shipwreck:

I was a little late in finishing last week's podcast but I really wanted to bring up a point that is very relevant to the used game discussion.

The publishers seem to get incredilbly annoyed that people aren't buying their games new but in my opinion this completely overlooks the fact that one component of the price of a new game is that it will have some value once the buyer has completed it.

That is, part of the validity of a $60 price tag is the recognition in a gamer's mind that he can recoup a few of those $60 dollars back if he elects to sell or trade the game in upon completion.

The point is that while the publishers may need to sell the game for $60 in order to profit, one of the only reasons that they are able to sell it at that price is the purchaser's knowledge that he can sell it later. Without this, demand for games may only be such that people would purchase them new for $50 or even $45.

Hence the marketability of a $60 price is somewhat created by the ability to sell it used.

[john8686]

Sorry Wombat, I have to respectfully disagree with you on your outlook for "future gaming". I think, unfortunately it will go the way of digital. I'm not going into the pros and cons here.

With Steam you can purchase/download pc games from their website. xbl / psn / & wii all have games that are strictly DLC. They all have full retail versions available for download as well.
OnLive has launched and their entire catalog is digital only. Time will tell if Onlive will survive and if people will give up tangible software for the ease and convenience of digital goods.
Look at movies and music. Music being the prime example here. When was the last time you bought a cd? I went into BestBuy the other day and the shelves for cd were barren. On some racks there were cards that had instructions on how to purchase & Dl the song. It will be a long time from now, but I think that's where its headed.

The stores do not make any money on games. They barely make money on the systems. They make their money on accessories and service plans. If the games are being offered to download, people will need to get the systems and it accessories. Games would bring people into the store, but I don't think it would be a reason to force manufacturers to not digitize media. With all the ways to get stuff nowadays, B&M stores might go the way of the Dodo too! Besides, who's going to strong-arm Microsoft?

Fellow Long Islander.
Joe

[NamPaehc]

Thanks for the mention of the lists on the show. I was JUST thinking that I wished there was a place to find some of the titles or genres you guys talked about.

My tastes in games is a mix of CheapyD's and Wombat's.

CheapyD = "lets me just have fun blowing things up!"
Wombat = "Let me have fun, and look 'purdy' doing it!"

So I'll keep an eye on your lists to see what kind of stuff you guys enjoyed and rate in the future.

[TooMuchCoolness]

How do I write a review in iTunes, do I do it on their website or iTunes itself? And do I need to register ?

[Islington]

Hey Cheapy! Love the show, just wanted to let you know that I agree with your suggestions for the mass effect series. I personally thought that all the ship upgrades were kind of pointless considering that they did nothing till the end cutscenes and where is the fun in that? I thought they should have done a gunner position scene like in the first Knights of the Old Republic. I live in Edmonton, home of Bioware and have a friend who works there and have passed along your suggestions and mine. (he works in "quality assurance" and has been there for some time, so maybe the suggestions will go somewhere... maybe) Anyway, I just wanted to send a quick post and hope you guys don't get too much crap flung your way for what I consider to be a very entertaining show.

Brian

[jrutz]

Hey Cheapy-

I was the CAG who originally recommended the Yamaha Soundbridge via Twitter (my Twitter name is SpotAnime). I'm glad you were able to demo them out, they are a truly amazing piece of tech. The great thing about the Soundbridge is that it has an integrated amp, and the models you are checking out have video switching via HDMI, so you can ditch your receiver too and wall-mount this sucker.

The beam technology Yamaha employs on the Soundbridge line is the only way to go when considering a soundbar. Through the settings you set the beam location, so you can find the best places to aim on your walls. And from the pictures you've shown of your new apartment, you have a great setup for it. Having a deep room with the Soundbridge centered on the wall parallel to where the rear speakers will be is perfect. That way you can set the rear speakers behind where you are sitting, rather than right above your head. It's hard to explain in words, wish I could draw a picture.

The new models you are looking at come with a microphone and they autoconfigure based on the layout of your room. I have the first model, the YSP-1000, and had to do everything manually, but by doing so I understand it a lot better. You can configure the beams so that you can extend the front left and right, place the center so that it sounds like it's coming BEHIND the TV (yes, that's true) and when you set the rears, you measure the total distance the sound will travel, and then separately the distance from where the virtual speaker to your ears, so you can get the perfect sound.

The only thing I think are negatives are that there's not much bass, so if you want some depth to the sound you'll need a dedicated sub, but because you don't want to rumble your neighbors it might be fine for you. Also, I know the walls that face Tokyo Tower are all windows, and I don't know if you have to reflect the beam if it works off a window. But I've done things with mine like bounce the beam off the ceiling when I run out of quality wall space. The last thing is that since it has the amp built-in, once new sound technologies are introduced, you can't upgrade. My model is DD 5.1 and DTS, but it doesn't have the HD audio codecs, so I just have to downconvert to DTS or something.

Oh - one more thing. I have the Turtle Beach X4's, and the pass-through doesn't like DTS, and most likely the new audio codecs. So I just have a manual optical switch that I use, so when I'm not using the headphones I bypass the amp in the headset base.

Hope that helps. IM me or contact me at Twitter if you have any questions!