cspan video game conference last night...

[weimerwanger]

i managed to catch this by chance, but there was a conference with the usual old white men complaining about video games (lieberman) at one point they showed a clip of the most violent / suggestive games to come out this year, and it included the usual gta:sa, complete with uncensored black people screaming "f-this" and "kill this $$$$a", and also had "the guy game", and the newest leisure suit larry. HOLY CRAP! leisure suit larry has actual sex (between some cartoon object and sorority girls) and the other game, "the guy game," was just a collection of videos of girls stripping (they didnt censor a damn thing on cspan!). while i have no qualms with adult games being made, NONE of the games there had an adult rating even though they fullfilled nearly all the requirements. its pretty shocking to see how easy it is for a 13 year old kid to get any of these games too, statistically, they only get id'd 50% of the time.
did anyone else catch this?

[dafoomie]

No game has ever had an adult rating, so thats not exactly news. Its the equivalent of an NC-17 or an X. Those games are rated M, which is comparable to R.

Parents just don't want to take responsibility for their children, plain and simple. They'll find anything else to blame but themselves. Who is going to give a 13 year old kid $50 to spend on a videogame? Their parents.

[weimerwanger]

its not exactly feasible to keep all money away from your kids, and as soon as they have the cash, they need look no further than two stores and they'll be able to purchase any game they want.
even if a parent could theoretically keep all money away from them and watch over every game that they buy, the kid would only have to walk next door and play his neighbors copy of said game or borrow it from a schoolmate.

[int80h]

Wait until they get a hold of Sega Virtual Cunnilingus for the DS...

[CappyCobra]

No game has ever had an adult rating, so thats not exactly news. Its the equivalent of an NC-17 or an X. Those games are rated M, which is comparable to R.

Not true. I remember when I worked at EB back in '96 there was a company called ' MacDaddy Software' they had quite a few 'Adult Only' games. There was also 'Riana Rouge' game I recall. Not to mention the Playboy 'Interactive' Videos.

- And yes I carded people.
- And no I'm not a pr0n freak

[sblymnlcrymnl]

No game has ever had an adult rating, so thats not exactly news. Its the equivalent of an NC-17 or an X. Those games are rated M, which is comparable to R.

Not true. I remember when I worked at EB back in '96 there was a company called ' MacDaddy Software' they had quite a few 'Adult Only' games. There was also 'Riana Rouge' game I recall. Not to mention the Playboy 'Interactive' Videos.

- And yes I carded people.
- And no I'm not a pr0n freak

I'm guessing those games were never actually rated and the publisher just slapped the AO label on there to help sell them.

[Othergods]

its not exactly feasible to keep all money away from your kids, and as soon as they have the cash, they need look no further than two stores and they'll be able to purchase any game they want.
even if a parent could theoretically keep all money away from them and watch over every game that they buy, the kid would only have to walk next door and play his neighbors copy of said game or borrow it from a schoolmate.Wow you are right, we should ban all portable forms of media that may contain sex and violence since it is impossible for parents to raise their children in a society that has these things available. We need to be come more sexually repressed as a country. Look at the disaray that the European countries are in now and the acts of sinceless violence and attacks from sexual deveints. This can all be blamed on the nudity that they have on TV in the Commercials.

[Ugamer_X]

No game has ever had an adult rating, so thats not exactly news. Its the equivalent of an NC-17 or an X. Those games are rated M, which is comparable to R.

Not true. I remember when I worked at EB back in '96 there was a company called ' MacDaddy Software' they had quite a few 'Adult Only' games. There was also 'Riana Rouge' game I recall. Not to mention the Playboy 'Interactive' Videos.

- And yes I carded people.
- And no I'm not a pr0n freak

I'm guessing those games were never actually rated and the publisher just slapped the AO label on there to help sell them.
No, there have been a handful Ao rated games for the PC...But not on consoles...

I'm waiting for C-span to put the internet feed up for this one.

[Javery]

Take control of your damn kids. It's simple. Well, actually it's kind of hard but that's part of being a parent. Peaple are so freaking lazy these days.

[CappyCobra]

No game has ever had an adult rating, so thats not exactly news. Its the equivalent of an NC-17 or an X. Those games are rated M, which is comparable to R.

Not true. I remember when I worked at EB back in '96 there was a company called ' MacDaddy Software' they had quite a few 'Adult Only' games. There was also 'Riana Rouge' game I recall. Not to mention the Playboy 'Interactive' Videos.

- And yes I carded people.
- And no I'm not a pr0n freak

I'm guessing those games were never actually rated and the publisher just slapped the AO label on there to help sell them.

There were ratings back then, but I think it was on a voluntary basis. I think it's still voluntary, but now it's pretty much industry standard to get your game ESRB rated. It may have been something to do with the Retailers demanding that all games be rated to avoid customer confrontation/confusion that all games are rated now.

[zewone]

i managed to catch this by chance, but there was a conference with the usual old white men complaining about video games (lieberman) at one point they showed a clip of the most violent / suggestive games to come out this year, and it included the usual gta:sa, complete with uncensored black people screaming "f-this" and "kill this $$$$a", and also had "the guy game", and the newest leisure suit larry. HOLY CRAP! leisure suit larry has actual sex (between some cartoon object and sorority girls) and the other game, "the guy game," was just a collection of videos of girls stripping (they didnt censor a damn thing on cspan!). while i have no qualms with adult games being made, NONE of the games there had an adult rating even though they fullfilled nearly all the requirements. its pretty shocking to see how easy it is for a 13 year old kid to get any of these games too, statistically, they only get id'd 50% of the time.
did anyone else catch this?

And how many R-rated movies do you think the same kids have seen? Its hard to stop kids from playing GTA:SA at a friends house or watching Showgirls at another friend's. Its a parents responsibility to make sure their 13 year old doesn't see or play a mature game/movie, not the goverments.

[Wshakspear]

Leisure Suit Larry has been uncensored for a newer PC version, and that ver. is rated AO. There is also a pretty popular european game that is now stateside Called singles (sim like, odly enough) that is rated AO.

The other part of my rant would be about parents responsibility and how much lieberman is a tool, but i'll leave you with this instead:

http://www.gamersnook.com/blog/archives/LiebermanPalpatine.jpeg

[Ugamer_X]

I'm completely against any censorship or "restrictions" placed by the federal or state government regarding games. However, I support stores who make it their policy to refuse selling M-rated games to minors.

[CappyCobra]

http://www.gamersnook.com/blog/archives/LiebermanPalpatine.jpeg[/quote]

That is and DISTURBING resemblence. :shock:

[willardhaven]

Wshakspear that is priceless.

[howlinmad]

its pretty shocking to see how easy it is for a 13 year old kid to get any of these games too, statistically, they only get id'd 50% of the time.

No, what's pretty shocking is the number of parents who refuse to be "parents" outside the literal sense that they did the naked wrestle to have the kid in the first place.

There are ratings on these games for a reason, true, they could be enforced at the retail counter better. But do you really need another copout other than TV not raising your kids properly? Look at what your kids are doing, know where they are. Go in their rooms. I don't know how many times I've heard the excuse of it being "their personal space." The parent is paying the house note....

I was raised, not thrown up. I was taught right from wrong, and you know what? I wasn't as hugely censored about what I could see as people think is the solution to all the problems now. I was actually taught what should and shouldn't be done, what was real, and what was some fantasy played out on TV and in books.
The end result? I've managed to not turn into a drug addict criminal, I somehow managed to support myself, and be a responsible adult. Imagine that.

I've actually SEEN parents return, and demand refunds, for GTA and the like, because they did not know it was so violent, and get upset at the clerk who sold it to her. Try actually paying attention to what you bought for your little darling.

[Othergods]

Leisure Suit Larry has been uncensored for a newer PC version, and that ver. is rated AO. There is also a pretty popular european game that is now stateside Called singles (sim like, odly enough) that is rated AO.

The other part of my rant would be about parents responsibility and how much lieberman is a tool, but i'll leave you with this instead:

http://www.gamersnook.com/blog/archives/LiebermanPalpatine.jpegLieberman is the reason that I did not vote for Gore back in 2000! I did not vote for Bush either since I am a Democrat, but I did not support the parties choice base on him and Tipper Gore getting that close to the White House.

[goergegavin]

Where does the trust part come in? I am 14 and I have played my share of violent video games and seen R movies. I must admit I am not a violent person or am I sexually active. And that's not because of my parents, they don't really keep tabs on what I do. The people who commit acts of violence and use video games as an excuse are crazy. What happened to people just being plain-old crazy? This is outrageous, I have never attempted to swing from one building to another just because I have watched the Spider-man cartoons and movies. Htis manifests from people's lack of responsibility and that's it.

[camoor]

... its pretty shocking to see how easy it is for a 13 year old kid to get any of these games too, statistically, they only get id'd 50% of the time.
did anyone else catch this?

Oh no a 13 year old saw a boob! Now he might become one of those degenerates that enjoy sex! We must repress this before it goes any farther!!

PS I a-heard you can find nekkid ladies on the internets. Will somebody PLEASE think of the children.

[camoor]

Lieberman is the reason that I did not vote for Gore back in 2000! I did not vote for Bush either since I am a Democrat, but I did not support the parties choice base on him and Tipper Gore getting that close to the White House.

Me too dude. I passed on Palpatine, and instead got Darth Vader. D'oh! #-o

[chickenhawk]

No game has ever had an adult rating, so thats not exactly news.


I don't think that is an accurate statement. I believe there are some PC games that have been designated as AO (Adult Only). Of course, I don't know for sure and have no examples. I'll try and find some though.

EDIT: I guess I need to read the entire thread before I post next time. Seems a few people beat me to it. :oops:

[weimerwanger]

I'm completely against any censorship or "restrictions" placed by the federal or state government regarding games. However, I support stores who make it their policy to refuse selling M-rated games to minors.
i totally agree, my stance used to be "fuck censorship" we should all be able to do what we want, but since college ive been able to differentiate opinion from fact. most people's opinion is that they can handle violence and sex in different forms of media, but statistics show otherwise. cities with boxing matches have a significantly higher number of murders during that weekend (and thats just boxing, jeez), and pornography sales per state are directly correlated to rapes per state. being able to watch violent movies and play violent games as a kid doesnt make you mature, it makes you unable to see the changes that are going on in your own friggin brain

[dafoomie]

No game has ever had an adult rating, so thats not exactly news.


I don't think that is an accurate statement. I believe there are some PC games that have been designated as AO (Adult Only). Of course, I don't know for sure and have no examples. I'll try and find some though.

EDIT: I guess I need to read the entire thread before I post next time. Seems a few people beat me to it. :oops:
I meant for consoles, which was the focus of the discussion.

[Othergods]

What happened to people just being plain-old crazy? That is the problem with our society, the average person can not fathom that someone would kill his wife and kids for no reason other than being old fashion crazy. They need to find something to blame it on as a sort of security blanket. If they can not find something to blame that they do not do (like video games) then what is to stop this from happening to them? This is mentality of weak minded and unfortunitly they are in the majority.

[camoor]

I'm completely against any censorship or "restrictions" placed by the federal or state government regarding games. However, I support stores who make it their policy to refuse selling M-rated games to minors.
i totally agree, my stance used to be "shaq-fu censorship" we should all be able to do what we want, but since college ive been able to differentiate opinion from fact. most people's opinion is that they can handle violence and sex in different forms of media, but statistics show otherwise. cities with boxing matches have a significantly higher number of murders during that weekend (and thats just boxing, jeez), and pornography sales per state are directly correlated to rapes per state. being able to watch violent movies and play violent games as a kid doesnt make you mature, it makes you unable to see the changes that are going on in your own friggin brain

Come on man, you really think a 13 year old is ready for the awesome responsibility of seeing the almighty BOOB. You have to be 18, or else the shock will cause your heart to explode.

[dafoomie]

There was a story about a 13 year old that killed his brother for stealing his fish. What do you think was the cause of that? Was it TV, or videogames, or movies?

[Othergods]

most people's opinion is that they can handle violence and sex in different forms of media, but statistics show otherwise. cities with boxing matches have a significantly higher number of murders during that weekend (and thats just boxing, jeez), and pornography sales per state are directly correlated to rapes per state. being able to watch violent movies and play violent games as a kid doesnt make you mature, it makes you unable to see the changes that are going on in your own friggin brainAre you trying to tell me that watching porn on tv has a negative impact on adults causing them to rape people? But the act of sex has no impact at all? I do not want to get mean but it sounds like you were hand fed some statistics you took them to be the gospel. One thing I have learned from Life is you make number (statistics) show anything you want them to show.

Ok lets look at this- Texas buys more porn than Wyoming and Texas has more rapes. Did you ever think that maybe this happens because there are more people in Texas?

Lets say that Porn sales for last year were like $900,000,000 You have to realize that there are not 100,000 people buying $9,000 in porn a year is it 18,000,000 people buying $50 in porn a year. So you can not link porn sales to rape.

Besides Rape is not about sex, it has nothing to do with sex or nudity, it is about power and lack of control in ones own life.

[Othergods]

There was a story about a 13 year old that killed his brother for stealing his fish. What do you think was the cause of that? Was it TV, or videogames, or movies?Internet based fish snuff films :?

[Admiral Ackbar]

There was a story about a 13 year old that killed his brother for stealing his fish. What do you think was the cause of that? Was it TV, or videogames, or movies?

I blame the fish.

[spyhunterk19]

There was a story about a 13 year old that killed his brother for stealing his fish. What do you think was the cause of that? Was it TV, or videogames, or movies?

What ever happened to just being CRAZY!-Chris Rock

[punqsux]

Take control of your damn kids. It's simple. Well, actually it's kind of hard but that's part of being a parent. Peaple are so freaking lazy these days.

no way dude...thats what the government is for :wink:

[dafoomie]

Ackbar was closer... the kid's name was Temujin, who went on to become Genghis Khan.

Theres been violence throughout the history of mankind. There were a lot more murders and rapes by children and overall back then than there are now. People somehow think that there are more of them today than there ever were. They're wrong. We will never be a perfect society free of all crime. There will always be irrational people, and there will always be other people who blame something else besides the person that actually did it.

The only thing we've lost throughout the ages is personal responsibility.

[weimerwanger]

do not want to get mean but it sounds like you were hand fed some statistics you took them to be the gospel
i didnt exactly get them from the christian coalition website, theyre from my social psychology text book
the purpose of the class isnt to install morals, it's to gain an understanding of how the mind works

[camoor]

most people's opinion is that they can handle violence and sex in different forms of media, but statistics show otherwise. cities with boxing matches have a significantly higher number of murders during that weekend (and thats just boxing, jeez), and pornography sales per state are directly correlated to rapes per state. being able to watch violent movies and play violent games as a kid doesnt make you mature, it makes you unable to see the changes that are going on in your own friggin brainAre you trying to tell me that watching porn on tv has a negative impact on adults causing them to rape people? But the act of sex has no impact at all? I do not want to get mean but it sounds like you were hand fed some statistics you took them to be the gospel. One thing I have learned from Life is you make number (statistics) show anything you want them to show.

Ok lets look at this- Texas buys more porn than Wyoming and Texas has more rapes. Did you ever think that maybe this happens because there are more people in Texas?

Lets say that Porn sales for last year were like $900,000,000 You have to realize that there are not 100,000 people buying $9,000 in porn a year is it 18,000,000 people buying $50 in porn a year. So you can not link porn sales to rape.

Besides Rape is not about sex, it has nothing to do with sex or nudity, it is about power and lack of control in ones own life.

True dude, and in Texas they tried to lock up that woman for selling sex toys to friends who asked her for them. No wonder in that repressive bible belt society there are so many secret pron fiends.

In Japan, where the government censors pron and there is a repressive attitude towards sex, people have developed weird fetishes and unhealthy sex attitudes. Same thing happened in Victorian England.

So to all the sexually repressive Joes and Janes out there, keep repressing it and see what happens. Pretty soon you'll be paying to get kicked in the crotch with a stiletto.

[jrutz]

No game has ever had an adult rating, so thats not exactly news. Its the equivalent of an NC-17 or an X. Those games are rated M, which is comparable to R.

There are a few AO games out on the market right now, including Singles and the Leisure Suit Larry Uncut and Uncensored version.

It's not too common, but they come out on the PC. I know for sure MS has a policy it will not approve any AO titles, probably the same for Sony. Nintendo is a no-brainer.

Jeremy

[dafoomie]

No game has ever had an adult rating, so thats not exactly news. Its the equivalent of an NC-17 or an X. Those games are rated M, which is comparable to R.

There are a few AO games out on the market right now, including Singles and the Leisure Suit Larry Uncut and Uncensored version.

It's not too common, but they come out on the PC. I know for sure MS has a policy it will not approve any AO titles, probably the same for Sony. Nintendo is a no-brainer.

Jeremy
Did you read my follow up? I was referring to consoles only.

[Javery]

Take control of your damn kids. It's simple. Well, actually it's kind of hard but that's part of being a parent. Peaple are so freaking lazy these days.

no way dude...thats what the government is for :wink:

yeah, because the only way to move forward as a society is to censor everything so we don't shock the minors and soccer moms. :P

[Ugamer_X]

do not want to get mean but it sounds like you were hand fed some statistics you took them to be the gospel
i didnt exactly get them from the christian coalition website, theyre from my social psychology text book
the purpose of the class isnt to install morals, it's to gain an understanding of how the mind works
Gah, that worries me...If there's anything your psychology book should be telling you, it's that pornography is healthy and viewing it won't cause someone to rape a person. I hope the graph shown was just for curiosity's sake, rather than backup for an argument.

Out of curiosity, is this a college level book that you took the graph from?

[Othergods]

do not want to get mean but it sounds like you were hand fed some statistics you took them to be the gospel
i didnt exactly get them from the christian coalition website, theyre from my social psychology text book
the purpose of the class isnt to install morals, it's to gain an understanding of how the mind worksYou misunderstood the phrase "Took them to be the gospel." It does not refer to any christian group, it means that you belived the statistics based on blind faith as those who follow christianity believe in the bible based on blind faith. So in no way did I imply that you got them from the christian coalition website. Just that you belived the statistics blindly without ever considering that they were manipulated to prove the point that they want to get across so that you feel morally the way the class wants you to feel.

[punqsux]

Take control of your damn kids. It's simple. Well, actually it's kind of hard but that's part of being a parent. Peaple are so freaking lazy these days.

no way dude...thats what the government is for :wink:

yeah, because the only way to move forward as a society is to censor everything so we don't shock the minors and soccer moms. :P

finally we see things on the same level ^^

[Sartori]

Keep a tab, censorship kills.

[weimerwanger]

do not want to get mean but it sounds like you were hand fed some statistics you took them to be the gospel
i didnt exactly get them from the christian coalition website, theyre from my social psychology text book
the purpose of the class isnt to install morals, it's to gain an understanding of how the mind worksYou misunderstood the phrase "Took them to be the gospel." It does not refer to any christian group, it means that you belived the statistics based on blind faith as those who follow christianity believe in the bible based on blind faith. So in no way did I imply that you got them from the christian coalition website. Just that you belived the statistics blindly without ever considering that they were manipulated to prove the point that they want to get across so that you feel morally the way the class wants you to feel.
i got the phrase you implied, you missed the point that i am not getting my information from a group that would be radically opinionated.
considering the focus of the textbook is on true, non goal oriented statistics and how to avoid bias, im going to have to side with my text book, which in fact went opposite to what i would normally assume about these types of media.
Gah, that worries me...If there's anything your psychology book should be telling you, it's that pornography is healthy and viewing it won't cause someone to rape a person. I hope the graph shown was just for curiosity's sake, rather than backup for an argument.

Out of curiosity, is this a college level book that you took the graph from?
yes it was a college level book, and a high level one at that.
and psychology is a matter of opinions, theories, and beliefs, EXCEPT for social psychology, which really deals with fact and statistics, and it tells that pornography is in fact unhealthy, especially if you're in a relationship with someone.

[Bivensra]

There was a story about a 13 year old that killed his brother for stealing his fish. What do you think was the cause of that? Was it TV, or videogames, or movies?

I bet that kid played Pokemon. Gotta get them all.

[help1]

i hate cspan 1 2 and 3.....

[Othergods]

do not want to get mean but it sounds like you were hand fed some statistics you took them to be the gospel
i didnt exactly get them from the christian coalition website, theyre from my social psychology text book
the purpose of the class isnt to install morals, it's to gain an understanding of how the mind worksYou misunderstood the phrase "Took them to be the gospel." It does not refer to any christian group, it means that you belived the statistics based on blind faith as those who follow christianity believe in the bible based on blind faith. So in no way did I imply that you got them from the christian coalition website. Just that you belived the statistics blindly without ever considering that they were manipulated to prove the point that they want to get across so that you feel morally the way the class wants you to feel.
im going to have to side with my text book, which in fact went opposite to what i would normally assume about these types of media.
Just like i said Blind Faith. If you honestly believe that the purchase of porn is directly linked to the number of Rapes then you are an idiot!

Rape has nothing to do with Sex or Nudity, it is about power and lack of control in ones life.

How can watching sex be more harmful than having sex? You might as well blame rape on the number of condoms and birth control that is purchased.

[dafoomie]

do not want to get mean but it sounds like you were hand fed some statistics you took them to be the gospel
i didnt exactly get them from the christian coalition website, theyre from my social psychology text book
the purpose of the class isnt to install morals, it's to gain an understanding of how the mind worksYou misunderstood the phrase "Took them to be the gospel." It does not refer to any christian group, it means that you belived the statistics based on blind faith as those who follow christianity believe in the bible based on blind faith. So in no way did I imply that you got them from the christian coalition website. Just that you belived the statistics blindly without ever considering that they were manipulated to prove the point that they want to get across so that you feel morally the way the class wants you to feel.
i got the phrase you implied, you missed the point that i am not getting my information from a group that would be radically opinionated.
considering the focus of the textbook is on true, non goal oriented statistics and how to avoid bias, im going to have to side with my text book, which in fact went opposite to what i would normally assume about these types of media.
Gah, that worries me...If there's anything your psychology book should be telling you, it's that pornography is healthy and viewing it won't cause someone to rape a person. I hope the graph shown was just for curiosity's sake, rather than backup for an argument.

Out of curiosity, is this a college level book that you took the graph from?
yes it was a college level book, and a high level one at that.
and psychology is a matter of opinions, theories, and beliefs, EXCEPT for social psychology, which really deals with fact and statistics, and it tells that pornography is in fact unhealthy, especially if you're in a relationship with someone.
There are no statistics that *directly* correlate pornography purchases with rapes. Pornography is a healthy way to exercise your sexual desires. Rape is not. Its a lot safer than promiscuity, and more mentally healthy can repression. I'd like to see these "statistics" for myself, its very easy to throw numbers out there when they don't have to be scrutinized. I have a feeling they cherrypicked their examples... Have to look at all of the data in full context.

[Scorch]

There is also a pretty popular european game that is now stateside Called singles (sim like, odly enough) that is rated AO.

Actually, for some reason, it was knocked down to M.

But seriously.. take control of your kids. It's not that hard. I saw mothers walking in with 6 year olds and buying San Andreas. Unreal.

[dafoomie]

Here's an actual study. It begins by noting that there is no correlation between rape and pornography in both the U.S. and England. Then it does an in-depth study of Japan, since Japan rapidly went from extremely prudish to more permissive in a relatively short period of time. The number of rapes went steadily down while the amount, availability, and explicitness of pornography went steadily up.

http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/online_artcls/pornography/prngrphy_rape_jp.html

[beerguy961]

I think there has to be responsibility of game stores and such to try to stop kids who aren't supposed to buy these games from getting them. I would like to see it fashioned after the movie industry, where theaters card people when they watch movies. Other than that, parents need to be resposible and know who their kids are hanging out with.

Personally, I think it's fine and parents don't need to be so damn protective of their kids. As though seeing a breast on TV will scar somebody for life...

[camoor]

do not want to get mean but it sounds like you were hand fed some statistics you took them to be the gospel
i didnt exactly get them from the christian coalition website, theyre from my social psychology text book
the purpose of the class isnt to install morals, it's to gain an understanding of how the mind worksYou misunderstood the phrase "Took them to be the gospel." It does not refer to any christian group, it means that you belived the statistics based on blind faith as those who follow christianity believe in the bible based on blind faith. So in no way did I imply that you got them from the christian coalition website. Just that you belived the statistics blindly without ever considering that they were manipulated to prove the point that they want to get across so that you feel morally the way the class wants you to feel.
im going to have to side with my text book, which in fact went opposite to what i would normally assume about these types of media.
Just like i said Blind Faith. If you honestly believe that the purchase of porn is directly linked to the number of Rapes then you are an idiot!

Rape has nothing to do with Sex or Nudity, it is about power and lack of control in ones life.

How can watching sex be more harmful than having sex? You might as well blame rape on the number of condoms and birth control that is purchased.

I don't think you understand. He saw it in a textbook

[dafoomie]

do not want to get mean but it sounds like you were hand fed some statistics you took them to be the gospel
i didnt exactly get them from the christian coalition website, theyre from my social psychology text book
the purpose of the class isnt to install morals, it's to gain an understanding of how the mind worksYou misunderstood the phrase "Took them to be the gospel." It does not refer to any christian group, it means that you belived the statistics based on blind faith as those who follow christianity believe in the bible based on blind faith. So in no way did I imply that you got them from the christian coalition website. Just that you belived the statistics blindly without ever considering that they were manipulated to prove the point that they want to get across so that you feel morally the way the class wants you to feel.
im going to have to side with my text book, which in fact went opposite to what i would normally assume about these types of media.
Just like i said Blind Faith. If you honestly believe that the purchase of porn is directly linked to the number of Rapes then you are an idiot!

Rape has nothing to do with Sex or Nudity, it is about power and lack of control in ones life.

How can watching sex be more harmful than having sex? You might as well blame rape on the number of condoms and birth control that is purchased.

I don't think you understand. He saw it in a textbook
His point is that Textbooks are not the word of god here, I've seen many, many textbooks with a blatant political bias, the worst is in science textbooks. Even in college textbooks. Textbook companies will cater to the particular slant that the school wants.

I just linked a study that contradicts what he said entirely. Also, many times pornography is a symptom and not a cause. I've seen no study in my life that proves cause and effect on this.

[weimerwanger]

::sigh:: i was hoping i wouldn't have to dig my book out of the closet
Neil Malamuth and James Check (1981) University of Manitoba: watching mild sexual violence makes men more accepting of violence against women.
Charles Mullin and Daniel Linz (1995): after watching slasher movies such as texas chainsaw massacre, subjects expressed less sympathy for domestic violence victims and they rated the victims' injuries as less severe; became progressively less bothered by raping and slashing.
i'll copy the following paragraph word for word from my text book:
Evidence also suggests that pornography may contribute to men's actual aggression toward women. Correlational studies raise that possibility. John Court (1985) noted that across the world, as pornography became more widely available during the 1960's and 1970's, the rate of reported rapes sharply increased - except in countries and areas where porngraphy was controlled. (The examples that counter this trend, such as Japan, where violent pornography is available but the rape rate is low, remind us that other factors are also important.) In Hawaii, the number of reported rapes rose ninefold between 1960 and 1974, dropped when restraints on pornography were temporarily imposed, and rose again when the restraints were lifted.
looking over the fact that japanese porn / rape rates are as unrelated to our country's rapes as the strength of the yen, these people are part of some goal based group, considering they are "the pacific center for sex and society," as opposed to real scientists. the pacific center for sex and society revolves around 1 man's reports, dr. milton diamond, hardly enough to disprove many studies, even if the study had anything to do with my point (which it doesnt)
A consensus statement by twenty-one leading social scientists sums up the results: "Exposure to violent pornography increases punitive behavior toward women"(Koop, 1987)
An FBI study also reports considerable exposure to pornography among serial killers, as does the Los Angeles Police Department among most child sex abusers (Bennet, 1991; Ressler & Others, 1988).
Repeated exposure to erotic films featuring quick, uncommited sex also tends to
- decrease attraction for one's partner;
- increase acceptance of extramarital sex and of women's sexual submission to men (Zillman, 1989);
- increase men's perceiving women in sexual terms
(Frable & others, 1994; Hansen & Hansen, 1988, 1990)
If any of you are unfamiliar with the scientific method, studies aren't published until they are rigorously tested, and when published, all details of how the experiment was constructed is included in the method, for the purpose of recreation by others.

[dafoomie]

looking over the fact that japanese porn / rape rates are as unrelated to our country's rapes as the strength of the yen, these people are part of some goal based group, considering they are "the pacific center for sex and society," as opposed to real scientists. the pacific center for sex and society revolves around 1 man's reports, dr. milton diamond, hardly enough to disprove many studies, even if the study had anything to do with my point (which it doesnt)
If you'd like to dismiss something that doesn't fit your argument, fine. But I would argue that Japanese pornography is in general much more violent, and rape is much more prevalent in it, but the rape rate there is one of the lowest in the world, and actually decreased as availabilty and the graphic level of pornography increased. But they don't count, because they're some kind of Asian master-race, immune to the supposed evil effects of pornography, right?

Neil Malamuth and James Check (1981) University of Manitoba: watching mild sexual violence makes men more accepting of violence against women.
Malamuth's studies have been criticized for several reasons. They demonstrate that under certain conditions, in the laboratory, that it CAN make men more accepting of violence, or more aggressive towards women, but not that it DOES, or that it will outside of the laboratory. And they only study short term effects, not long term. Here is a very unnecessarily long article about Malamuth's studies.
http://www.sfu.ca/~palys/court.htm

Charles Mullin and Daniel Linz (1995): after watching slasher movies such as texas chainsaw massacre, subjects expressed less sympathy for domestic violence victims and they rated the victims' injuries as less severe; became progressively less bothered by raping and slashing.
Here is some more information about this study.

"Mullin and Linz (1995) conducted an experiment by repeatedly showing sexually violent films to the participants and measuring their sensitivity to violence and sympathy for the victims. Repeated exposure and elapsed time (three days) produced less sympathy and perceived less severity of injuries by the experimental group than by the control group. However, five days after the final film exposure, the independent group’s sensitivity level had matched that of the comparison group’s. Unfortunately, physiological arousal was self-reported, but it was interesting to see that sensitivity to victims could be reestablished in observers, perhaps producing a more empathic society, albeit long after an incident. Could they have re-thought their answers or the images they saw?"

Again, I question the laboratory setting, and short-term vs long term. In fact, I would argue that this study has some evidence against long term effects, since the participants 'sensitivity' level matched the control group 5 days afterwards.

A consensus statement by twenty-one leading social scientists sums up the results: "Exposure to violent pornography increases punitive behavior toward women"(Koop, 1987)
This particular "study" was a closed, weekend workshop, held to produce evidence for the Meese Commission, a group of political appointees who are basically there to rebut a previous presidential commission, the Commission on Obscenity and Pornography. The group of 'experts' in the workshop was handpicked, and only discussed the issue over a weekend. The final report by Koop was not even agreed upon by all of the participants.

"Neil Malamuth, one of the participants in the workshop, objected to the wording of the Surgeon General's report. Writing in American Psychologist, he said that, although the participants agreed "pornography that portrays sexual aggression as pleasurable for the victim increases the acceptance of coercion in sexual relations," they did not reach consensus that "this type of pornography is at the root of much of the rape that occurs today." Nor did they agree on other statements which Surgeon General Koop appended to their conclusions in his article. Malamuth concluded, "Obviously, the Surgeon General is entitled to his own opinions in this matter. However, it would be wrong to conclude that…they were endorsed by all of the workshop's participants."

An FBI study also reports considerable exposure to pornography among serial killers, as does the Los Angeles Police Department among most child sex abusers (Bennet, 1991; Ressler & Others, 1988)
Serial killers and child sex abusers look at a lot of porn? I don't see a causal relationship here. I would comment more but I can't find any information about this study. Does it even demonstrate that pornography exposure among them is higher than regular people? Even if it did, it does not show cause and effect.

Repeated exposure to erotic films featuring quick, uncommited sex also tends to
- decrease attraction for one's partner;
- increase acceptance of extramarital sex and of women's sexual submission to men (Zillman, 1989);
- increase men's perceiving women in sexual terms
(Frable & others, 1994; Hansen & Hansen, 1988, 1990)
Nothing about rape here. I can't find any of these studies or I would comment more.

Research your research before you form an opinion based on it. Nothing has ever shown a causal relationship between pornography and rape, and nothing has demonstrated long term effects of pornography on men's acceptance of violence towards women.

[weimerwanger]

great, so you can rebut some of the experiments with statements like "i question the settings of the experiment," or "certain scientists or authorities refute this or that statement," then conceed to the arguement by diverting the topic, saying that after long periods of time the mind set of the subjects reverts to a normal control group, so yes, the experiment is F-ing accurate, j*sus horse, how can you try to argue around that and not seem like a pathological scam artist
you're admitting to these as fact, but somehow they're null and void because they cant be correlated to different situations? give me a break.

[dafoomie]

great, so you can rebut some of the experiments with statements like "i question the settings of the experiment," or "certain scientists or authorities refute this or that statement," then conceed to the arguement by diverting the topic, saying that after long periods of time the mind set of the subjects reverts to a normal control group, so yes, the experiment is F-ing accurate, j*sus horse, how can you try to argue around that and not seem like a pathological scam artist
you're admitting to these as fact, but somehow they're null and void because they cant be correlated to different situations? give me a break.
So I can't rebut your examples, but you can rebut mine?

I do question the experiments to a degree, and I don't think you even had any idea what exactly these experiments were. You just took them for granted because they were cited by the allmighty textbook.

The experiments are not necessarily invalid, they just don't support or disprove your argument, that increased pornography leads to increased rapes. Your taking studies that say:

1. Men watching sexual violence may make them more accepting of it (in the short term). Malamuth himself says that these are only short term effects.

2. Men watching sexually violent films will percieve less sympathy for the victims within them for a short period of time.

3. A politically biased group that did no actual study, that only came to a "consensus statement" on a weekend, in which a leading scientist which you yourself has cited not only said that words were put into his mouth, but specifically stated that "they did not reach the consensus that this type of pornography is at the root of much of the rape that occurs today."

4. An FBI study that says serial killers and child sex abusers look at lots of porn (in comparison to who I would ask, and which no causal relationship was even sought)

5. Repeated exposure to porn that has casual sex may lead men to have a decreased appetite for their partner, more acceptance of extramarital sex and women's sexual submission, and men's increased perception of women in sexual terms. (these are actually conclusions drawn from a couple studies)

If you could take every single one of these studies at face value, without any doubt, then it still wouldn't support your thesis that increased porno leads to increased rapes. Its a logical leap at best. In the example that is the closest to your statement, the Meese Commission workshop (#3), the guy you cited specificially says that they did not reach the conclusion that you have.

[Ugamer_X]

Sorry for the bump, but the video is online at C-span now...

http://www.c-span.org/Search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryT ext=lieberman+video (explicit content)

I think you need to have Real Player, which I know most people will refuse to download...So, sorry.