Christmas spirit waning as you get older?

[Fatesealer]

Do you still get excited for Christmas, including a Marioesque 'YIPPEE!!!'... or do you dread it and say 'meh, just another day...'?

[greydemise]

i still get really excited about it..i dno, its just me i guess, i get happy during the holiday season, ,my family is the same, so i guess it helps out too ya kno :)

[TheRaven]

I'm 25 and just as excited for XMas than ever. Not because I expect anything really for myself as I have no real wants or needs so am not asking for anything. But I absolutely cannot wait to give my gifts to my wife and 6 year old son. I also enjoy the time to spend with my family. It's just a special day set aside where we truly appreciate one another even more than we might on a normal day. That's what XMas has become for me at this stage in my life.

[AdamInPlaidum]

Different reasons, same great feelings. God I love this time of year.

[Admiral Ackbar]

I usually try to keep from pulling a Moe Szyslak.

Speaking of that, we need a smiley which pulls a gun and then proceeds to blow his brains out. All we have close to that is this... :fridge:

[Moxio]

Not necessarily a "Ugh Christmas are ovrrat3d" attitude, but I do enjoy the holidays other than the presents. A warm, cheerful atmosphere is what we need.

[Trakan]

I enjoy celebrating the holiday, but it seems like it's just another day to me now as I get older.

[basketkase543]

Definately not as excited as I used to be though I still like it.

[Fatesealer]

Oh yeah... I love some Little Debbie Christmas Tree cakes... and I know somehow, I'm going to get a candy cane to eat... I'm a sucka for holiday only treats... well.......... except for Pepsi Holiday Spice, which I liken to drinking muddy water... if there's any PEPSI in it, I sure couldn't taste it...

[bignick]

I'm 25 and just as excited for XMas than ever. Not because I expect anything really for myself as I have no real wants or needs so am not asking for anything. But I absolutely cannot wait to give my gifts to my wife and 6 year old son. I also enjoy the time to spend with my family. It's just a special day set aside where we truly appreciate one another even more than we might on a normal day. That's what XMas has become for me at this stage in my life.

Same here, except for the wife and kid. I enjoy giving my parents things that they would never buy for themselves. Its my way of saying thanks for all of the sacrifices they made for me all of these years.

[Weedy649]

lol as you get older...havent any of you seen elf! I would never see it as another day though. It depends on whether you see it as a religious time, spending time with those you love or if you see it as spending money and presents. In that case those people hate it when they are older because you get presents when your young but have to shell out the cash for it when your older and you dont get much in return.

[Greetard]

I'd be excited...if I didn't have to go to a midnight mass at our church. I'll be there until 2, and then help put presents out. Yippie :?

[Magician]

I still love Christmas, and not just for the presents. Its just the atmosphere and spirit that seems to only appear near the holidays. The presents don't hurt, either, but I enjoy giving them as much as I do receiving them.

[rabbitt]

I still get pretty excited. I love the snow, the food, the presents.

[Greetard]

Now that I think about it...staying up late isn't that bad.....especially when you have that special morning to look forward to.

[el bobo]

I'm 14 and get excited for it, and I don't think I will ever not get excited for Christmas.

[Moxio]

I still get pretty excited. I love the snow, the food, the presents.

You're luckly. We don't get snow for crap down here.

[road3283]

A few years back my family stopped giving each other gifts. It makes the holidays much more enjoyable not to have all that stress. However, if there were little kids I could still see the fun in giving them presents.

[x0thedeadzone0x]

Last year it was sorta eh... although I still enjoyed it. This year will be the same if not better.

[BlueWingX]

I want to enjoy it, but most of my family just gets depressed about finances around the holidays, and it just seems to bring everything down. I'm going to make an effort to enjoy it this year, though. Wish me luck...

[dustyeff]

I enjoy the holidays. We usually have a Christmas party a couple days before Christmas (the 23rd) (my friends and I) that involves caroling (and freezing our ASSES off) as well as some really kick ass food and movies late into the night. Then, on Christmas Eve (day) I'm going to the Packers vs. Vikings game, and then Christmas Eve/Christmas are always fun to just sit around and watch "A Christmas Story" 12 times in a row.

[Drocket]

Just my own personal observation:

For most people, it seems, there's usually somewhat of a dip in their enjoyment of Christmas that usually happens in the late teens/early 20's. At that point, they're usually too old to get all hyped up about getting gifts, but too young to fully understand the fun of giving, and the sheer joy of being with the people you love. If this describes you, don't worry: in a few years, you'll understand all the sappy crap the holiday shows are filled with.

Another group that tends to not enjoy the holidays is a lot of women (usually ones married with children) who become too stressed out about the 'implementation' of Christmas. To them I would have to say: relax, calm down. When they grow up, your children are NOT going to remember that you made 17 different types of cookies, all perfectly shaped and decorated. They WILL remember how much fun you all had when you made the giant mess while you were all baking sugar cookies together, and Santa came out looking like he was bleeding to death.

[The Shiznit]

Being married with children the holidays are great. Take a little time off of work to enjoy it with them. Also, nothing better than seeing the kids open up presents on Christmas.

[catacasa]

I hate christmas.

[Slipknot9762]

i get excited because its like getting free stuff

[evilpenguin9000]

I used to get really depressed and pissy at X-Mas. It just annoyed me. Then I had a couple of X-mases (what's the plural of X-Mas?) that didn't totally suck, so now I just kinda let it ride and look forward to seeing my friends.

Basically things don't suck as much as I expect so I'm pleasantly surprised. It's the cynics way.

[TheGreat2nd]

Christmas is cool.
Everything is white, close to a fresh start in a New Year, and everybody is generally smiling (especially in the cement jungle of Manhattan =/)
Different kind of atmosphere...of course, a few weeks into January, everyone is pissed off again and cursing at each other.
Theeenn...we wait for the next Christmas :P

[Gothic Walrus]

For most people, it seems, there's usually somewhat of a dip in their enjoyment of Christmas that usually happens in the late teens/early 20's. At that point, they're usually too old to get all hyped up about getting gifts, but too young to fully understand the fun of giving, and the sheer joy of being with the people you love. If this describes you, don't worry: in a few years, you'll understand all the sappy crap the holiday shows are filled with.

I sure hope so...because that describes me perfectly right now. Almost. I really do understand the "fun of giving" aspect - more from my experiences with my friends than anything else - but I'm just not exicted and haven't been for a few years now.

At least I know for a fact that I'll have a shiny new console to play with after the 25th...

[jimbodan]

I'm definately pretty jaded about Christmas. I think the feeling started once I stopped being a kid and stopped getting presents from everyone. When I was a kid all my relatives would buy me presents, and I had to give pretty much nothing, usually just some arts and crafts stuff I made in school. My biggest hassle was just hoping my family didn't screw up my christmas list, I never had to worry about lines or spending money on gifts. Now however that's changed, I only get presents from my grandparents and parents and a few friends. Instead of paying them back with free homemade arts projects I now have to spend actual cash on them. It adds up really fast and just makes Christmas suck. I'd rather just save all that money and buy the presents for myself. Luckily my parents do get me a lot and I always end up getting more in gifts then I spend. I guess I started losing my Christmas spirit when Christmas went from being all about to me to being all about everyone else.

[willardhaven]

I like giving gifts and getting games I can't afford... I do enjoy the time leading up to Christmas a lot more than the actual holiday itself.

[JSweeney]

I think it's actually kind of funny that people are discussing a religious holiday, and yet religion hasn't even been mentioned in the thread yet.

Beyond that, there are a few people in the thread making great points about the joy of giving, and a couple people sounding like spoiled children.

[tornadomann]

i still get really excited for christmas!

[PhrozenFire]

Yeah, I'm not near as excited as I was, say, 10 years ago about getting stuff but I'm more excited about the season in general, than ever. If it's only about presents to you, that's gonna happen, and you deserve it for being so greedy and materialistic.

[bignick]

I think it's actually kind of funny that people are discussing a religious holiday, and yet religion hasn't even been mentioned in the thread yet.

I was thinking the same thing. The only thing that bugs me is when people say Xmas, CHRISTmas. There is a reason its call CHRISTmas.

[sblymnlcrymnl]

Yes, because now that I'm older I buy myself everything I want. Also I don't trust my gift picking abilities. All in all I don't enjoy the process much anymore.

[x0thedeadzone0x]

Being the atheist I am, I don't particularly emphasize the christ part of christmas.

[sblymnlcrymnl]

Being the atheist I am, I don't particularly emphasize the christ part of christmas.

Same here.

[JSweeney]

That doesn't change the fact that the festival and it's symbology is all religious in nature...
and it's not even just the Christian religions.

In fact, a great deal of the symbology related to christmas was co-opted from pagan religions and later asymilated into the Christan festival of Christmas. Save for the practicioners of the Christan religions and those who see Christmas as a time for displays of friendship and fellowship, Christmas is becoming a commerical holiday... in which sense, of course it's going to feel hollow and empty... without a religous or ethical basis (friendship, fellowship, etc) for the celebration, it becomes nothing else but another out for material excess.
Heck, even the modern interpretation of Santa Claus is nothing but a modified version of a corporate icon designed by the Coca-Cola corporation.

[CaptainObviousXl]

I'm 14 and get excited for it, and I don't think I will ever not get excited for Christmas.
well i turn 16 in december and i got excited about it up untill last year, idk if its cause of the lack of money coming into the house, a new found state of constant depresion, or just that i am getting older. I still do like giving gifts even though i think i went to far last year.

[Inmate #10943]

Being a Christian I sort of get bummed out at Christmas. It's sort of lost its true meaning. Who thinks of Christ at Christmas anymore. You know it's: Circuit City, Saks, tree, ornaments, wrapping paper, obligatory Christmas cards, gift for the letter carrier, etc. etc. Spend spend spend!
It's good for the economy!

I think I'm going to find a new holiday and George Costanza's father had the right idea -
Happy Festivus Everybody!

[alongx]

Over the last 4-5 years, I've enjoyed buying gifts for my family more than even receiving gifts. This year I had some fun, because we're spending Christmas with some of my cousins who I did the shopping for.

[punqsux]

i do like the idea of xmas...but as ive grown older ive also grown cynical, and i hate the way xmas makes people act.

i do however love seeing people open gifts i get them...i kinda pride myself on getting people gifts that really tune in to who they are....also i love watching my baby cousin tear through about a million toys wrappings =o)

[evilmax17]

I'm all for taking the "Christ" out of Christmas. I absolutely love the holiday season, but the "holiday season" isn't exclusive to Christians. Every time christmas comes around, somebody will mention that "all of the religious meaning has been lost", and commercially it certainly has been. But where is the harm in that?

At this point, "Christmas" outright outranks Hannukah and Kwanza in the media. Until this changes, i think it's beneficial to take the "christ" out of christmas, and open it up to everybody else. You make it less offensive to non-christians by having "X-mas" commercials, sales, and advertising. It almost seems smug for christians to complain about the removal of religion from the holiday, especially since it's THEIR holiday that gets all of the attention. I don't mind keeping the religious aspect of the holiday private, reserved for those who choose to celebrate it for that reason.

I'm Roman Catholic by birth, but I don't celebrate christmas for Jesus. I use this time to be close with my family, and to show them thanks. Just a general time for celebration, and for being happy.

Has anybody seen the new Virgin commercial which makes the new holiday "ChristmaHanuKwanzica"? I like the idea.

[JSweeney]

I'm all for taking the "Christ" out of Christmas. I absolutely love the holiday season, but the "holiday season" isn't exclusive to Christians. Every time christmas comes around, somebody will mention that "all of the religious meaning has been lost", and commercially it certainly has been. But where is the harm in that?

At this point, "Christmas" outright outranks Hannukah and Kwanza in the media. Until this changes, i think it's beneficial to take the "christ" out of christmas, and open it up to everybody else. You make it less offensive to non-christians by having "X-mas" commercials, sales, and advertising. It almost seems smug for christians to complain about the removal of religion from the holiday, especially since it's THEIR holiday that gets all of the attention. I don't mind keeping the religious aspect of the holiday private, reserved for those who choose to celebrate it for that reason.

I'm Roman Catholic by birth, but I don't celebrate christmas for Jesus. I use this time to be close with my family, and to show them thanks. Just a general time for celebration, and for being happy.

Has anybody seen the new Virgin commercial which makes the new holiday "ChristmaHanuKwanzica"? I like the idea.

There seems to be something subtly evil about what you're saying.
It seems like you're rejecting your faith, throwing out any real faith or responsibility it asks of you, and using it only when it's beneficial to you.

Just because you're celebrating the secular aspect of the holiday season is no reason to overlook the spirtual aspect of it, regardless of your faith.
I have no issue with someone being an atheist or agnostic... they're free to believe what they wish. But to claim membership to a religion and then toss out the tenents of your religion "just because" seems disingenous at best. Of course, the level of this would all depend on what level of membership in the church you are... if you were baptised and recieved First Communion, I could understand somewhat if you grew away from the church... your membership was chosen by your parents, and if you don't accept the beliefs, you are not forced to stay...
If you're confirmed, it's worse, because you actually decided to be a member of the church community.

[Lootr2Core]

I'm all for taking the "Christ" out of Christmas. I absolutely love the holiday season, but the "holiday season" isn't exclusive to Christians.


You sir are a moron.

[punqsux]

I'm all for taking the "Christ" out of Christmas. I absolutely love the holiday season, but the "holiday season" isn't exclusive to Christians. Every time christmas comes around, somebody will mention that "all of the religious meaning has been lost", and commercially it certainly has been. But where is the harm in that?

At this point, "Christmas" outright outranks Hannukah and Kwanza in the media. Until this changes, i think it's beneficial to take the "christ" out of christmas, and open it up to everybody else. You make it less offensive to non-christians by having "X-mas" commercials, sales, and advertising. It almost seems smug for christians to complain about the removal of religion from the holiday, especially since it's THEIR holiday that gets all of the attention. I don't mind keeping the religious aspect of the holiday private, reserved for those who choose to celebrate it for that reason.

I'm Roman Catholic by birth, but I don't celebrate christmas for Jesus. I use this time to be close with my family, and to show them thanks. Just a general time for celebration, and for being happy.

Has anybody seen the new Virgin commercial which makes the new holiday "ChristmaHanuKwanzica"? I like the idea.

i agree with you fully, and thats why i call it xmas

i mean if its going to be a national holiday, it should be fair to all religions,

but yeah, i still dont like xmas Xop

[RAMSTORIA]

I usually try to keep from pulling a Moe Szyslak.



when i was a kid we called it being a scrooge....

[Lootr2Core]

I'm all for taking the "Christ" out of Christmas. I absolutely love the holiday season, but the "holiday season" isn't exclusive to Christians. Every time christmas comes around, somebody will mention that "all of the religious meaning has been lost", and commercially it certainly has been. But where is the harm in that?

At this point, "Christmas" outright outranks Hannukah and Kwanza in the media. Until this changes, i think it's beneficial to take the "christ" out of christmas, and open it up to everybody else. You make it less offensive to non-christians by having "X-mas" commercials, sales, and advertising. It almost seems smug for christians to complain about the removal of religion from the holiday, especially since it's THEIR holiday that gets all of the attention. I don't mind keeping the religious aspect of the holiday private, reserved for those who choose to celebrate it for that reason.

I'm Roman Catholic by birth, but I don't celebrate christmas for Jesus. I use this time to be close with my family, and to show them thanks. Just a general time for celebration, and for being happy.

Has anybody seen the new Virgin commercial which makes the new holiday "ChristmaHanuKwanzica"? I like the idea.

i agree with you fully, and thats why i call it xmas

i mean if its going to be a national holiday, it should be fair to all religions,

but yeah, i still dont like xmas Xop

you sir are a moron..

[Tromack]

I'm 25 and just as excited for XMas than ever. Not because I expect anything really for myself as I have no real wants or needs so am not asking for anything. But I absolutely cannot wait to give my gifts to my wife and 6 year old son. I also enjoy the time to spend with my family. It's just a special day set aside where we truly appreciate one another even more than we might on a normal day. That's what XMas has become for me at this stage in my life.

I agree. The giving is so much more rewarding. Sure it's nice to get stuff, but it isn't as if I wouldn't have gotten most of the things I get myself. But to actually make someone else happy, that is great.

[moiety]

As a kid, I'd always have a long list of things I wanted. I noticed that as the years went on, that list grew shorter and shorter. I just didn't care about opening lots of stuff anymore. I'm 22 now, and I'm not really asking for any material things this Christmas. It's funny how it changes...

Like punq said, I also enjoy watching other people open gifts I've gotten them. I get a lot more satisfaction from that than opening my own gifts.

What's more mindblowing to me is how the holiday season seems to come around quicker and quicker every year...

[RAMSTORIA]

Has anybody seen the new Virgin commercial which makes the new holiday "ChristmaHanuKwanzica"? I like the idea.

that is the stupidest idea in the world, cmon, the reason christmas is so big in america is because MOST AMERICANS ARE CHRISTIAN, not because people are excluded... christmas is not this big in many non-christian countries. and for the record anyone can celebrate christmas, i know plenty of athiests that do.

[punqsux]

I'm all for taking the "Christ" out of Christmas. I absolutely love the holiday season, but the "holiday season" isn't exclusive to Christians. Every time christmas comes around, somebody will mention that "all of the religious meaning has been lost", and commercially it certainly has been. But where is the harm in that?

At this point, "Christmas" outright outranks Hannukah and Kwanza in the media. Until this changes, i think it's beneficial to take the "christ" out of christmas, and open it up to everybody else. You make it less offensive to non-christians by having "X-mas" commercials, sales, and advertising. It almost seems smug for christians to complain about the removal of religion from the holiday, especially since it's THEIR holiday that gets all of the attention. I don't mind keeping the religious aspect of the holiday private, reserved for those who choose to celebrate it for that reason.

I'm Roman Catholic by birth, but I don't celebrate christmas for Jesus. I use this time to be close with my family, and to show them thanks. Just a general time for celebration, and for being happy.

Has anybody seen the new Virgin commercial which makes the new holiday "ChristmaHanuKwanzica"? I like the idea.

i agree with you fully, and thats why i call it xmas

i mean if its going to be a national holiday, it should be fair to all religions,

but yeah, i still dont like xmas Xop

you sir are a moron..

little redundant there burnsey ^^
mind sharing why im a moron?

[Tromack]

I'm all for taking the "Christ" out of Christmas. I absolutely love the holiday season, but the "holiday season" isn't exclusive to Christians. Every time christmas comes around, somebody will mention that "all of the religious meaning has been lost", and commercially it certainly has been. But where is the harm in that?

At this point, "Christmas" outright outranks Hannukah and Kwanza in the media. Until this changes, i think it's beneficial to take the "christ" out of christmas, and open it up to everybody else. You make it less offensive to non-christians by having "X-mas" commercials, sales, and advertising. It almost seems smug for christians to complain about the removal of religion from the holiday, especially since it's THEIR holiday that gets all of the attention. I don't mind keeping the religious aspect of the holiday private, reserved for those who choose to celebrate it for that reason.

I'm Roman Catholic by birth, but I don't celebrate christmas for Jesus. I use this time to be close with my family, and to show them thanks. Just a general time for celebration, and for being happy.

Has anybody seen the new Virgin commercial which makes the new holiday "ChristmaHanuKwanzica"? I like the idea.

i agree with you fully, and thats why i call it xmas

i mean if its going to be a national holiday, it should be fair to all religions,

but yeah, i still dont like xmas Xop

you sir are a moron..

Agree'd.

For all of you morons who believe that Xmas is a blasphemy against Christmas, learn some history. The Xmas is taken from the Greek shorthand for Christmas. It was only later, more ignorant, Christians who didn't know Greek that said it was a travesty. Xmas is the same as Christmas.

Same goes for that retarded bitch Christina Aguilera. Calling her self Xtina (despite the fact that it should be Xina, but I digress) because she wants to take the "Christ" out is just stupid.

[hulk409]

"i mean if its going to be a national holiday, it should be fair to all religions"

Holy hell people, what is wrong with you? This is Christmas. This is when we celebrate the birth of Christ. If you simply want to celebrate the secular part of it, that's fine, but to say "it should be fair to all religions" is idiotic.

[Lootr2Core]

[quote=evilmax17]I'm all for taking the "Christ" out of Christmas. I absolutely love the holiday season, but the "holiday season" isn't exclusive to Christians.

Ya, and lets take the thanks out of thanksgiving what is that all about? and the veterans out of veterans' day, and the memory out of memorial day.. and lets take the indepenance out of indepandance day... and lets take Labor out of Labor day..


you sir, are a moron.......

[punqsux]

I'm all for taking the "Christ" out of Christmas. I absolutely love the holiday season, but the "holiday season" isn't exclusive to Christians. Every time christmas comes around, somebody will mention that "all of the religious meaning has been lost", and commercially it certainly has been. But where is the harm in that?

At this point, "Christmas" outright outranks Hannukah and Kwanza in the media. Until this changes, i think it's beneficial to take the "christ" out of christmas, and open it up to everybody else. You make it less offensive to non-christians by having "X-mas" commercials, sales, and advertising. It almost seems smug for christians to complain about the removal of religion from the holiday, especially since it's THEIR holiday that gets all of the attention. I don't mind keeping the religious aspect of the holiday private, reserved for those who choose to celebrate it for that reason.

I'm Roman Catholic by birth, but I don't celebrate christmas for Jesus. I use this time to be close with my family, and to show them thanks. Just a general time for celebration, and for being happy.

Has anybody seen the new Virgin commercial which makes the new holiday "ChristmaHanuKwanzica"? I like the idea.

i agree with you fully, and thats why i call it xmas

i mean if its going to be a national holiday, it should be fair to all religions,

but yeah, i still dont like xmas Xop

you sir are a moron..

Agree'd.

For all of you morons who believe that Xmas is a blasphemy against Christmas, learn some history. The Xmas is taken from the Greek shorthand for Christmas. It was only later, more ignorant, Christians who didn't know Greek that said it was a travesty. Xmas is the same as Christmas.

Same goes for that retarded bitch Christina Aguilera. Calling her self Xtina (despite the fact that it should be Xina, but I digress) because she wants to take the "Christ" out is just stupid.

yeah, i know this..when it was against the laws to be christian, people marked their doors with an X as a symbol of christ...(and later as a symbol of straight edge ^^)

dont think i care about the history of it at all...i just dont think a religious holiday should be a national holiday...bottom line.

[Ledhed]

Has anybody seen the new Virgin commercial which makes the new holiday "ChristmaHanuKwanzica"? I like the idea.

I pray that is sarcasm. This is the non-sensical side of political correctness shining through. I find the idea of a combination holiday along the lines of what you just mentioned ridiculously offensive, and I don't even follow any of those religions. There is no need to call the Holidays that.

[JSweeney]

i agree with you fully, and thats why i call it xmas
That's rude, self-important, and entirely disrespectful of a large portion of the society.

i mean if its going to be a national holiday, it should be fair to all religions

That's utter bullshit. Just because the government wants to make a national holiday out of a festival that is deeply important to my religion they now get naming rights on it?

,but yeah, i still dont like xmas
Yet you see fit to be disrespectful of the belief structure of the majority of the the American society because it conflicts with your delicate sensiblities?

[evilmax17]

If you're confirmed, it's worse, because you actually decided to be a member of the church community.

I always hate it when people take a single sentence from somebodys post and focus on that, so I apologize for doing it right now.

Yes, I was confirmed. There were about 40 kids in the class, 39 of which didn't want to be there (including myself). I think it would be interesting to see the numbers on kids who freely chose their religious beliefs, and kids who had religion forced upon.

If i were given the CHOICE to be confirmed, I wouldn't have went to a single class. But the thing is that most kids (from where I'm from anyway, I don't know if this is universal) were forced by their parents to go to CCD, confirmation, and church (to a lesser degree).

So really, being "confirmed" isn't really a matter of choice. The rule around my house was "you can do whatever you want when you're 18, but until then, you have to do what we say." Take that for what it's worth.

[Lootr2Core]

I'm all for taking the "Christ" out of Christmas. I absolutely love the holiday season, but the "holiday season" isn't exclusive to Christians. Every time christmas comes around, somebody will mention that "all of the religious meaning has been lost", and commercially it certainly has been. But where is the harm in that?

At this point, "Christmas" outright outranks Hannukah and Kwanza in the media. Until this changes, i think it's beneficial to take the "christ" out of christmas, and open it up to everybody else. You make it less offensive to non-christians by having "X-mas" commercials, sales, and advertising. It almost seems smug for christians to complain about the removal of religion from the holiday, especially since it's THEIR holiday that gets all of the attention. I don't mind keeping the religious aspect of the holiday private, reserved for those who choose to celebrate it for that reason.

I'm Roman Catholic by birth, but I don't celebrate christmas for Jesus. I use this time to be close with my family, and to show them thanks. Just a general time for celebration, and for being happy.

Has anybody seen the new Virgin commercial which makes the new holiday "ChristmaHanuKwanzica"? I like the idea.

i agree with you fully, and thats why i call it xmas

i mean if its going to be a national holiday, it should be fair to all religions,

but yeah, i still dont like xmas Xop

you sir are a moron..

Agree'd.

For all of you morons who believe that Xmas is a blasphemy against Christmas, learn some history. The Xmas is taken from the Greek shorthand for Christmas. It was only later, more ignorant, Christians who didn't know Greek that said it was a travesty. Xmas is the same as Christmas.

Same goes for that retarded bitch Christina Aguilera. Calling her self Xtina (despite the fact that it should be Xina, but I digress) because she wants to take the "Christ" out is just stupid.

yeah, i know this..when it was against the laws to be christian, people marked their doors with an X as a symbol of christ...(and later as a symbol of straight edge ^^)

dont think i care about the history of it at all...i just dont think a religious holiday should be a national holiday...bottom line.

Why do you believe a religious holiday should be a national holiday? ALso I would like to know what your reference is to the X as a symbol of CHrist...

EDIT--the only time X was a part of Christianity was with the CHI---- todays P.... CHI-RHO- P/x combined.

[Mafia]

Bah mother fucking humbug. Since I just started working at Target, I don't even get paid for it this year, and at this point it's just another day off to me, except for passing somewhat fake wishes of joy to those who do not normally get them.

That, and working retail. It might be different if I didn't work retail, but dealing with the assiest of assholes for some fucking $97 camera just annoys me and makes me want to do very not nice things to them....

[manofpeace20]

I still get excited about Christmas and get in the spirit, but its not the same as when i was a kid because of the great white lie. When I eventually have my own family with children, I can see myslef getting even more excited about Christmas. Plus, with my line of work I plan to get in (teaching), I will forever get a Christmas break!

[JSweeney]

For all of you morons who believe that Xmas is a blasphemy against Christmas, learn some history. The Xmas is taken from the Greek shorthand for Christmas. It was only later, more ignorant, Christians who didn't know Greek that said it was a travesty. Xmas is the same as Christmas.

While that is true, as it was symbolic of the cross, the use of that symbology fell out of favor... that is neither the reasoning nor the intent of most that use that shorthand... especially when you see the context in which one is using it.
If someone were using it, it is an innocuous oversight.
However, many use it with a more malicious intent.

[Tromack]

I'm all for taking the "Christ" out of Christmas. I absolutely love the holiday season, but the "holiday season" isn't exclusive to Christians. Every time christmas comes around, somebody will mention that "all of the religious meaning has been lost", and commercially it certainly has been. But where is the harm in that?

At this point, "Christmas" outright outranks Hannukah and Kwanza in the media. Until this changes, i think it's beneficial to take the "christ" out of christmas, and open it up to everybody else. You make it less offensive to non-christians by having "X-mas" commercials, sales, and advertising. It almost seems smug for christians to complain about the removal of religion from the holiday, especially since it's THEIR holiday that gets all of the attention. I don't mind keeping the religious aspect of the holiday private, reserved for those who choose to celebrate it for that reason.

I'm Roman Catholic by birth, but I don't celebrate christmas for Jesus. I use this time to be close with my family, and to show them thanks. Just a general time for celebration, and for being happy.

Has anybody seen the new Virgin commercial which makes the new holiday "ChristmaHanuKwanzica"? I like the idea.

i agree with you fully, and thats why i call it xmas

i mean if its going to be a national holiday, it should be fair to all religions,

but yeah, i still dont like xmas Xop

you sir are a moron..

Agree'd.

For all of you morons who believe that Xmas is a blasphemy against Christmas, learn some history. The Xmas is taken from the Greek shorthand for Christmas. It was only later, more ignorant, Christians who didn't know Greek that said it was a travesty. Xmas is the same as Christmas.

Same goes for that retarded bitch Christina Aguilera. Calling her self Xtina (despite the fact that it should be Xina, but I digress) because she wants to take the "Christ" out is just stupid.

yeah, i know this..when it was against the laws to be christian, people marked their doors with an X as a symbol of christ...(and later as a symbol of straight edge ^^)

dont think i care about the history of it at all...i just dont think a religious holiday should be a national holiday...bottom line.

Why do you believe a religious holiday should be a national holiday? ALso I would like to know what your reference is to the X as a symbol of CHrist...

EDIT--the only time X was a part of Christianity was with the CHI---- todays P.... CHI-RHO- P/x combined.

This looks legitimate enough. http://www.bartleby.com/61/80/X0008000.html

[JSweeney]

Tromack, did you read the usage notes on that which you just qouted?

[EddieBelfour]

christmas sucks, just ask jc.

[punqsux]

i agree with you fully, and thats why i call it xmas
That's rude, self-important, and entirely disrespectful of a large portion of the society.

i mean if its going to be a national holiday, it should be fair to all religions

That's utter bullshit. Just because the government wants to make a national holiday out of a festival that is deeply important to my religion they now get naming rights on it?

,but yeah, i still dont like xmas
Yet you see fit to be disrespectful of the belief structure of the majority of the the American society because it conflicts with your delicate sensiblities?

1)fuck society. simple as that. ive never agreed with the way 90% of everything is done, from school to work to politics, so i dont care about respecting society. people are too closed-minded and stubborn.

2)no one said renaming christmas. please dont put words in my mouth. its unfair for our government to favor one religious holiday over another. anyone of any religion can celebrate whatever they want, i dont care, but a gov./religious holiday is just wrong.

3)i dont see it as being disrespectful, because i call it that dosent mean you cant call it anything you would like.

[CaptainObviousXl]

If you're confirmed, it's worse, because you actually decided to be a member of the church community.

I always hate it when people take a single sentence from somebodys post and focus on that, so I apologize for doing it right now.

Yes, I was confirmed. There were about 40 kids in the class, 39 of which didn't want to be there (including myself). I think it would be interesting to see the numbers on kids who freely chose their religious beliefs, and kids who had religion forced upon.

If i were given the CHOICE to be confirmed, I wouldn't have went to a single class. But the thing is that most kids (from where I'm from anyway, I don't know if this is universal) were forced by their parents to go to CCD, confirmation, and church (to a lesser degree).

So really, being "confirmed" isn't really a matter of choice. The rule around my house was "you can do whatever you want when you're 18, but until then, you have to do what we say." Take that for what it's worth.
hell i paid for my ds using my confermation money so was it worth it... yes

[Lootr2Core]

I'm all for taking the "Christ" out of Christmas. I absolutely love the holiday season, but the "holiday season" isn't exclusive to Christians. Every time christmas comes around, somebody will mention that "all of the religious meaning has been lost", and commercially it certainly has been. But where is the harm in that?

At this point, "Christmas" outright outranks Hannukah and Kwanza in the media. Until this changes, i think it's beneficial to take the "christ" out of christmas, and open it up to everybody else. You make it less offensive to non-christians by having "X-mas" commercials, sales, and advertising. It almost seems smug for christians to complain about the removal of religion from the holiday, especially since it's THEIR holiday that gets all of the attention. I don't mind keeping the religious aspect of the holiday private, reserved for those who choose to celebrate it for that reason.

I'm Roman Catholic by birth, but I don't celebrate christmas for Jesus. I use this time to be close with my family, and to show them thanks. Just a general time for celebration, and for being happy.

Has anybody seen the new Virgin commercial which makes the new holiday "ChristmaHanuKwanzica"? I like the idea.

i agree with you fully, and thats why i call it xmas

i mean if its going to be a national holiday, it should be fair to all religions,

but yeah, i still dont like xmas Xop

you sir are a moron..

Agree'd.

For all of you morons who believe that Xmas is a blasphemy against Christmas, learn some history. The Xmas is taken from the Greek shorthand for Christmas. It was only later, more ignorant, Christians who didn't know Greek that said it was a travesty. Xmas is the same as Christmas.

Same goes for that retarded bitch Christina Aguilera. Calling her self Xtina (despite the fact that it should be Xina, but I digress) because she wants to take the "Christ" out is just stupid.

yeah, i know this..when it was against the laws to be christian, people marked their doors with an X as a symbol of christ...(and later as a symbol of straight edge ^^)

dont think i care about the history of it at all...i just dont think a religious holiday should be a national holiday...bottom line.

Why do you believe a religious holiday should be a national holiday? ALso I would like to know what your reference is to the X as a symbol of CHrist...

EDIT--the only time X was a part of Christianity was with the CHI---- todays P.... CHI-RHO- P/x combined.

This looks legitimate enough. http://www.bartleby.com/61/80/X0008000.html]


Yes, and everyone in the US know greek. even in the early days of Christianity Jesus was never spelled as X--- NEVER in the New Testament was Christ spelled as X---- CHRISTOS--yes but not X...PX(CHI RHO came into favor after emporer Constantine had his army draw that symbol on their shield after a dream of divine inspiration.

X--was NEVER shorthand for Christians..

[punqsux]

I'm all for taking the "Christ" out of Christmas. I absolutely love the holiday season, but the "holiday season" isn't exclusive to Christians. Every time christmas comes around, somebody will mention that "all of the religious meaning has been lost", and commercially it certainly has been. But where is the harm in that?

At this point, "Christmas" outright outranks Hannukah and Kwanza in the media. Until this changes, i think it's beneficial to take the "christ" out of christmas, and open it up to everybody else. You make it less offensive to non-christians by having "X-mas" commercials, sales, and advertising. It almost seems smug for christians to complain about the removal of religion from the holiday, especially since it's THEIR holiday that gets all of the attention. I don't mind keeping the religious aspect of the holiday private, reserved for those who choose to celebrate it for that reason.

I'm Roman Catholic by birth, but I don't celebrate christmas for Jesus. I use this time to be close with my family, and to show them thanks. Just a general time for celebration, and for being happy.

Has anybody seen the new Virgin commercial which makes the new holiday "ChristmaHanuKwanzica"? I like the idea.

i agree with you fully, and thats why i call it xmas

i mean if its going to be a national holiday, it should be fair to all religions,

but yeah, i still dont like xmas Xop

you sir are a moron..

Agree'd.

For all of you morons who believe that Xmas is a blasphemy against Christmas, learn some history. The Xmas is taken from the Greek shorthand for Christmas. It was only later, more ignorant, Christians who didn't know Greek that said it was a travesty. Xmas is the same as Christmas.

Same goes for that retarded bitch Christina Aguilera. Calling her self Xtina (despite the fact that it should be Xina, but I digress) because she wants to take the "Christ" out is just stupid.

yeah, i know this..when it was against the laws to be christian, people marked their doors with an X as a symbol of christ...(and later as a symbol of straight edge ^^)

dont think i care about the history of it at all...i just dont think a religious holiday should be a national holiday...bottom line.

Why do you believe a religious holiday should be a national holiday? ALso I would like to know what your reference is to the X as a symbol of CHrist...

EDIT--the only time X was a part of Christianity was with the CHI---- todays P.... CHI-RHO- P/x combined.

the markings on the door i picked up from an art history class, and yes i know the p goes through it, i just didnt know the name of the symbol.

a religious holiday should not be a national holiday because that makes it seem like the gov. endorses that religion, which the gov. never should do. its imposing on people who are not of that religion but feel the need to conform to society.

[moiety]

Kala Xristouyena! :lol:

(I'm Greek)

[JSweeney]

shaq-fu society. simple as that. ive never agreed with the way 90% of everything is done, from school to work to politics, so i dont care about respecting society. people are too closed-minded and stubborn.

Yep, because right now your looking like the pinacle of open mindedness and respect of other's beliefs, right?

no one said renaming christmas. please dont put words in my mouth. its unfair for our government to favor one religious holiday over another. anyone of any religion can celebrate whatever they want, i dont care, but a gov./religious holiday is just wrong.

So you malign a religious holiday because some polictians decided to make it a national holiday? Exactly how that make sense?


i dont see it as being disrespectful, because i call it that dosent mean you cant call it anything you would like

So it's ok to throw around loaded words just because you don't think they are disrespectful? So if you don't think it's dispectful to call a person of a racial group a slur directed at that group, it's ok to do it, right?

[Lootr2Core]

i agree with you fully, and thats why i call it xmas
That's rude, self-important, and entirely disrespectful of a large portion of the society.

i mean if its going to be a national holiday, it should be fair to all religions

That's utter bullshit. Just because the government wants to make a national holiday out of a festival that is deeply important to my religion they now get naming rights on it?

,but yeah, i still dont like xmas
Yet you see fit to be disrespectful of the belief structure of the majority of the the American society because it conflicts with your delicate sensiblities?

1)shaq-fu society. simple as that. ive never agreed with the way 90% of everything is done, from school to work to politics, so i dont care about respecting society. people are too closed-minded and stubborn.

2)no one said renaming christmas. please dont put words in my mouth. its unfair for our government to favor one religious holiday over another. anyone of any religion can celebrate whatever they want, i dont care, but a gov./religious holiday is just wrong.

3)i dont see it as being disrespectful, because i call it that dosent mean you cant call it anything you would like.

About point 2.. no one said renaming christmas.. I think when you said, "i agree with you fully, and thats why i call it xmas" that was implied.

[sj41]

The best part of Christmas will be Cheapy's avatar as himself being Santa Claus. :lol:

[Lootr2Core]

I'm all for taking the "Christ" out of Christmas. I absolutely love the holiday season, but the "holiday season" isn't exclusive to Christians. Every time christmas comes around, somebody will mention that "all of the religious meaning has been lost", and commercially it certainly has been. But where is the harm in that?

At this point, "Christmas" outright outranks Hannukah and Kwanza in the media. Until this changes, i think it's beneficial to take the "christ" out of christmas, and open it up to everybody else. You make it less offensive to non-christians by having "X-mas" commercials, sales, and advertising. It almost seems smug for christians to complain about the removal of religion from the holiday, especially since it's THEIR holiday that gets all of the attention. I don't mind keeping the religious aspect of the holiday private, reserved for those who choose to celebrate it for that reason.

I'm Roman Catholic by birth, but I don't celebrate christmas for Jesus. I use this time to be close with my family, and to show them thanks. Just a general time for celebration, and for being happy.

Has anybody seen the new Virgin commercial which makes the new holiday "ChristmaHanuKwanzica"? I like the idea.

i agree with you fully, and thats why i call it xmas

i mean if its going to be a national holiday, it should be fair to all religions,

but yeah, i still dont like xmas Xop

you sir are a moron..

Agree'd.

For all of you morons who believe that Xmas is a blasphemy against Christmas, learn some history. The Xmas is taken from the Greek shorthand for Christmas. It was only later, more ignorant, Christians who didn't know Greek that said it was a travesty. Xmas is the same as Christmas.

Same goes for that retarded bitch Christina Aguilera. Calling her self Xtina (despite the fact that it should be Xina, but I digress) because she wants to take the "Christ" out is just stupid.

yeah, i know this..when it was against the laws to be christian, people marked their doors with an X as a symbol of christ...(and later as a symbol of straight edge ^^)

dont think i care about the history of it at all...i just dont think a religious holiday should be a national holiday...bottom line.

Why do you believe a religious holiday should be a national holiday? ALso I would like to know what your reference is to the X as a symbol of CHrist...

EDIT--the only time X was a part of Christianity was with the CHI---- todays P.... CHI-RHO- P/x combined.

the markings on the door i picked up from an art history class, and yes i know the p goes through it, i just didnt know the name of the symbol.

a religious holiday should not be a national holiday because that makes it seem like the gov. endorses that religion, which the gov. never should do. its imposing on people who are not of that religion but feel the need to conform to society.

Religious holiday shouldn't be national holiday eh? Well simply go to work on that day. So with your logic there should be no holidays then right?

[moiety]

When I eventually have my own family with children, I can see myslef getting even more excited about Christmas.

Yeah, I'm excited about that too! Knowing how my parents felt giving me Christmas's, I think that will be a great time in my life.

[Ledhed]

Religious holiday shouldn't be national holiday eh? Well simply go to work on that day. So with your logic there should be no holidays then right?

He's saying no religion should be held with precedence in the eyes of the gov't. National Holidays that acknowledge important religious days and the idea of a favored religion in gov't are two completely different things.

[Lootr2Core]

Religious holiday shouldn't be national holiday eh? Well simply go to work on that day. So with your logic there should be no holidays then right?

He's saying no religion should be held with precedence in the eyes of the gov't. National Holidays that acknowledge important religious days and the idea of a favored religion in gov't are two completely different things.


so can you name a national holiday that doesn't favor an organized religion?

[JSweeney]

I always hate it when people take a single sentence from somebodys post and focus on that, so I apologize for doing it right now.

Yes, I was confirmed. There were about 40 kids in the class, 39 of which didn't want to be there (including myself). I think it would be interesting to see the numbers on kids who freely chose their religious beliefs, and kids who had religion forced upon.

If i were given the CHOICE to be confirmed, I wouldn't have went to a single class. But the thing is that most kids (from where I'm from anyway, I don't know if this is universal) were forced by their parents to go to CCD, confirmation, and church (to a lesser degree).

I blame your parents then. You ARE supposed to be given choice on that, as without you going into the ceremony of free will and desire to do so, it's just a sham, kept up for appearence.

So really, being "confirmed" isn't really a matter of choice. The rule around my house was "you can do whatever you want when you're 18, but until then, you have to do what we say." Take that for what it's worth.

I blame your parents, mostly, and you somewhat, for not standing up for yourself. While at the age you were, I know that is difficult, but being confirmed is supposed to be a deep spiritual thing, where you make the decision that you do want to live the Catholic lifestyle.

While it doesn't make you blameless, It does make your viewpoint make a bit more sense. I feel deeply sorry for you that you parents forced you into something you didn't believe yourself ready for or want.

[punqsux]

shaq-fu society. simple as that. ive never agreed with the way 90% of everything is done, from school to work to politics, so i dont care about respecting society. people are too closed-minded and stubborn.

Yep, because right now your looking like the pinacle of open mindedness and respect of other's beliefs, right?

no one said renaming christmas. please dont put words in my mouth. its unfair for our government to favor one religious holiday over another. anyone of any religion can celebrate whatever they want, i dont care, but a gov./religious holiday is just wrong.

So you malign a religious holiday because some polictians decided to make it a national holiday? Exactly how that make sense?


i dont see it as being disrespectful, because i call it that dosent mean you cant call it anything you would like

So it's ok to throw around loaded words just because you don't think they are disrespectful? So if you don't think it's dispectful to call a person of a racial group a slur directed at that group, it's ok to do it, right?

1) i was confronted by numerous people here and called a moron, of course im on the defensive here! i am a very open minded person, and i dont care what people believe in, im not trashing any religion here, just saying i disagree with the fact that xmas is a national holiday

2) im making it into a holiday i dont mind celebrateing. make of it anything you like, i dont see how me calling it something else changes what the holiday means to you on a personal level.

3)what loaded words have i thrown around? why are you trying to make me sound like im a prejudice person? ive already stated i dont care what people believe!!

[CaseyRyback]

I did all the Cristmas shopping last year.


I have a deep respect for people who have to do it every year. It is a huge pain in the ass

[punqsux]

About point 2.. no one said renaming christmas.. I think when you said, "i agree with you fully, and thats why i call it xmas" that was implied.

thats why i call it xmas.
i never said the holiday should be changed to be called that

[Jaket]

im jewish.... the spirit is already winding down after day 3 or 4 ;)

[evilmax17]

JSweeney, why did you edit your post? I thought you made a great point in seperating the HISTORICAL meaning of the holiday and the SECULAR meaning.

Historically, the first "thanksgiving" likely didn't even happen. The whole smallpox on blankets thing kind of sours the deal. However, secularly, Thanksgiving is about eating turkey and being thankful. Secular > Historical in this case.

Historically, Christmas is about celebrating the birth of Jesus the Christ. Now for whichever reason (most probably that the majority of America is christian), Christmas has become the "national" December holiday. That is a reality. While I would much rather see the holiday season become completely non-discriminatory, we have to deal with the state of it as it stands. The solution to this is commercialization. In stead of seeing Jesus commercials, you see Santa Claus. So the secular meaning of Christmas has taken the form of giving presents, and showing loved ones that you care for them. I don't think that its a horrible trade.

This is not selfish. Christian's who use their religious majority to try and enforce the historical significance are only looking out for themselves. Again, I agree that the nationalization of Christmas is wrong, but it happened. Commercializing the holiday somewhat fixes this error. If you'd like the religion inserted back into christmas, then do it yourselves, in your own homes. Don't force it onto other people, regardless if the majority of people in America follow your beliefs. Don't forget, the majority of Americans are caucasian also, but that doesn't mean you can pander everything to them.

Also, I liked the IDEA of "ChristmaHanukwanzika", not the name. The name sucks. The idea does not.

Sumation: If you're going to put christmas EVERYWHERE, you had better make it accessible to EVERYONE. If you don't want to sacrifice the meaning of the holiday in the process, then don't put it everywhere. However, since it already IS everywhere, I don't see commercialization as a bad temporary solution to the problem.

[bignick]

You guys never cease to amaze me! So, there should be no religious holidays, no presidents day because some people may take offended by things they may have done, no colombus day becasue he was mean to the indians, no Martin Luther King Jr day becasue some people dont like blacks. We shouldnt teach our kids about the declaration of independance because it has references to God in it. Anything else?

[punqsux]

Religious holiday shouldn't be national holiday eh? Well simply go to work on that day. So with your logic there should be no holidays then right?

will you guys try and see what im saying instead of twisting around words i have not said?

i feel ive typed the same thing 4 or 5 times over and still no one gets what im saying...

veterans day is a national holiday, its there to remember people who have serverd time, and people who have given their lives for our country. something all american can relate to or be thankful for (mans i know you guys are going to tear apart that line...)

christmas is no such holiday, its a religious holiday.

[Ledhed]

Religious holiday shouldn't be national holiday eh? Well simply go to work on that day. So with your logic there should be no holidays then right?

He's saying no religion should be held with precedence in the eyes of the gov't. National Holidays that acknowledge important religious days and the idea of a favored religion in gov't are two completely different things.


so can you name a national holiday that doesn't favor an organized religion?

That isn't the point. Of course individual holidays recognize individual religions. The point is there should be no religion favored over others, or no religion favored period. How would you feel if your gov't was acknowledging many important days for someone else's religion, but not acknowledging any of yours? You'd see it as favoritism, wouldn't you? That is the point of what I was saying.

EDIT:You guys never cease to amaze me! So, there should be no religious holidays, no presidents day because some people may take offended by things they may have done, no colombus day becasue he was mean to the indians, no Martin Luther King Jr day becasue some people dont like blacks. We shouldnt teach our kids about the declaration of independance because it has references to God in it. Anything else?

Who the hell said we shouldn't acknowledge those holidays? The point is that no one thing should be favored over others.

[Lootr2Core]

shaq-fu society. simple as that. ive never agreed with the way 90% of everything is done, from school to work to politics, so i dont care about respecting society. people are too closed-minded and stubborn.

Yep, because right now your looking like the pinacle of open mindedness and respect of other's beliefs, right?

no one said renaming christmas. please dont put words in my mouth. its unfair for our government to favor one religious holiday over another. anyone of any religion can celebrate whatever they want, i dont care, but a gov./religious holiday is just wrong.

So you malign a religious holiday because some polictians decided to make it a national holiday? Exactly how that make sense?


i dont see it as being disrespectful, because i call it that dosent mean you cant call it anything you would like

So it's ok to throw around loaded words just because you don't think they are disrespectful? So if you don't think it's dispectful to call a person of a racial group a slur directed at that group, it's ok to do it, right?

1) i was confronted by numerous people here and called a moron, of course im on the defensive here! i am a very open minded person, and i dont care what people believe in, im not trashing any religion here, just saying i disagree with the fact that xmas is a national holiday

2) im making it into a holiday i dont mind celebrateing. make of it anything you like, i dont see how me calling it something else changes what the holiday means to you on a personal level.

3)what loaded words have i thrown around? why are you trying to make me sound like im a prejudice person? ive already stated i dont care what people believe!!

why 'celebrate' something you don't believe in? You don't see how calling it something else is offensive? In response 1 you confess that you are being responsive because of being called a moron.. so words matter eh? Why are you offended or defensive if I call you a moron instead of punxsuqs? Likewise you have no problem celebrating Christmas as long as its not called that... YOu certainly sound like you are trashing a religion..

[Lootr2Core]

Religious holiday shouldn't be national holiday eh? Well simply go to work on that day. So with your logic there should be no holidays then right?

will you guys try and see what im saying instead of twisting around words i have not said?

i feel ive typed the same thing 4 or 5 times over and still no one gets what im saying...

veterans day is a national holiday, its there to remember people who have serverd time, and people who have given their lives for our country. something all american can relate to or be thankful for (mans i know you guys are going to tear apart that line...)

christmas is no such holiday, its a religious holiday.

So veterans day is a national holiday with no religious mention? Methinks you need you read some of Abraham Lincoln's speeches again.

[xenoman80]

wait what there no santa. huh no easter buny mickey mouse is mexican whats the word cumming to

[JSweeney]

i was confronted by numerous people here and called a moron, of course im on the defensive here! i am a very open minded person, and i dont care what people believe in, im not trashing any religion here, just saying i disagree with the fact that xmas is a national holiday

I don't disagree with you on the fact that Christmas should not be recognized as a goverment holiday, if you are one that maintains believes in the strict application of consitutional law. Of course, in that case, you'd also be opposed to many of the constitution amendments.

im making it into a holiday i dont mind celebrateing. make of it anything you like, i dont see how me calling it something else changes what the holiday means to you on a personal level.

That's fine, I'm glad you can create a holiday that is meaningful to you.
But its' not fair to trample the feelings and beliefs of a group of people by bastardizing the name of thier holiday (Christmas has been the accepted name of the Christain holiday, and Xmas has fallen out of favor, as it refers more now to the commercialized bastardization of that holiday.)

what loaded words have i thrown around? why are you trying to make me sound like im a prejudice person? ive already stated i dont care what people believe!!

Xmas is a loaded word. While not originally intented to, it represents almost the antithesis of what Christmas stands for... it directly refers to the commericalized bastardization of the Christian holiday, creating a consumer driven holiday that has no moral or ethical basis.

[moiety]

i feel ive typed the same thing 4 or 5 times over and still no one gets what im saying...


It's probably cuz they don't want to 'get' what you're saying.

It feels like this topic is going in circles....

[6669]

wait what there no santa. huh no easter buny mickey mouse is mexican whats the word cumming to

Allow me to translate:
"Wait, what? There isn't a Santa? Huh? No Easter Bunny? Mickey Mouse is Mexican? What's the world coming to?

PS What's wrong about Mickey Mouse being Mexican?

[Lootr2Core]

i feel ive typed the same thing 4 or 5 times over and still no one gets what im saying...


It's probably cuz they don't want to 'get' what you're saying.

It feels like this topic is going in circles....

please summarize what he is trying to say then...

[punqsux]

why 'celebrate' something you don't believe in? You don't see how calling it something else is offensive? In response 1 you confess that you are being responsive because of being called a moron.. so words matter eh? Why are you offended or defensive if I call you a moron instead of punxsuqs? Likewise you have no problem celebrating Christmas as long as its not called that... YOu certainly sound like you are trashing a religion..

i celebrate xmas for 2 reasons.
1)traditions, i was raised in a christian family.
2)my already stated enjoyments of the holiday.

i do not celebrate christmas in its real meaning.
me celebrating it has nothing to do with jesus being born, it has to do with sharing gifts with people i care about. i dont think it would be fair to the actual meaning of christmas for me to call it that as it would disrespect the meaning, which i do respect to for people that do believe it.

did i say that words dont matter? obviously words can be offensive, i dont believe i ever said anything that said they couldnt be...

[bignick]

Here is a list of the holidays we need to ban ASAP.



Jan 1 New Year's Day Ban it becasue not everyone celebrates the same start of the new year
Jan 19 Martin Luther King Day Ban it, not all people like blacks
Feb 14 Valentine's Day Ban it, everyone isnt in love

Feb 16 President's Day Ban it, everyone doesnt like them
Apr 9 Good Friday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Apr 11 Easter Sunday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Apr 12 Easter Monday (Christian) Ban it, religious
May 9 Mother's Day Ban it, not everyone has a mother
May 31 Memorial Day Ban it, some of those soldiers died in a war that someone didnt like
Jun 20 Father's Day Ban it, not everyone has a fater
Jul 4 Independence Day Ban it, it may be offensive to other nations
Sep 6 Labor Day Keep it
Oct 11 Columbus Day Ban it, he was mean to the Indians
Oct 31 Halloween Ban it, ghosts are scary to some people
Nov 11 Veterans Day Ban it, they fought in wars that some people didnt agree with
Nov 25 Thanksgiving Day Ban it because it is mean to animals
Dec 25 Christmas Day Ban it, religious

[6669]

Here is a list of the holidays we need to ban ASAP.



Jan 1 New Year's Day Ban it becasue not everyone celebrates the same start of the new year
Jan 19 Martin Luther King Day Ban it, not all people like blacks
Feb 14 Valentine's Day Ban it, everyone isnt in love

Feb 16 President's Day Ban it, everyone doesnt like them
Apr 9 Good Friday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Apr 11 Easter Sunday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Apr 12 Easter Monday (Christian) Ban it, religious
May 9 Mother's Day Ban it, not everyone has a mother
May 31 Memorial Day Ban it, some of those soldiers died in a war that someone didnt like
Jun 20 Father's Day Ban it, not everyone has a fater
Jul 4 Independence Day Ban it, it may be offensive to other nations
Sep 6 Labor Day Keep it
Oct 11 Columbus Day Ban it, he was mean to the Indians
Oct 31 Halloween Ban it, ghosts are scary to some people
Nov 11 Veterans Day Ban it, they fought in wars that some people didnt agree with
Nov 25 Thanksgiving Day Ban it because it is mean to animals
Dec 25 Christmas Day Ban it, religious

But a lot of those give us days off of school.

[Lootr2Core]

why 'celebrate' something you don't believe in? You don't see how calling it something else is offensive? In response 1 you confess that you are being responsive because of being called a moron.. so words matter eh? Why are you offended or defensive if I call you a moron instead of punxsuqs? Likewise you have no problem celebrating Christmas as long as its not called that... YOu certainly sound like you are trashing a religion..

i celebrate xmas for 2 reasons.
1)traditions, i was raised in a christian family.
2)my already stated enjoyments of the holiday.

i do not celebrate christmas in its real meaning.
me celebrating it has nothing to do with jesus being born, it has to do with sharing gifts with people i care about. i dont think it would be fair to the actual meaning of christmas for me to call it that as it would disrespect the meaning, which i do respect to for people that do believe it.

did i say that words dont matter? obviously words can be offensive, i dont believe i ever said anything that said they couldnt be...

so why do you celebrate something you don't believe in? so what is the 'actual meanin of christmas' that you don't wan't to disrespect? If you don't believe in it how can you disrespect it? I don't believe in Friday the 13th.. so I don't mark that day by being afraid or steering clear of it..

[sblymnlcrymnl]

Here is a list of the holidays we need to ban ASAP.

Apr 9 Good Friday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Apr 11 Easter Sunday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Apr 12 Easter Monday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Dec 25 Christmas Day Ban it, religious

I can agree with those.

[punqsux]

Here is a list of the holidays we need to ban ASAP.

Apr 9 Good Friday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Apr 11 Easter Sunday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Apr 12 Easter Monday (Christian) Ban it, religious

i agree with that as well...i understand what you were saying was a joke, but i hope you realized how ridiculous you sounded outside of how ridiculous you actully were trying to sound

[moiety]

i feel ive typed the same thing 4 or 5 times over and still no one gets what im saying...


It's probably cuz they don't want to 'get' what you're saying.

It feels like this topic is going in circles....

please summarize what he is trying to say then...

Exactly my point! :lol:

[JSweeney]

Historically, the first "thanksgiving" likely didn't even happen. The whole smallpox on blankets thing kind of sours the deal. However, secularly, Thanksgiving is about eating turkey and being thankful. Secular > Historical in this case.

Historically, Christmas is about celebrating the birth of Jesus the Christ. Now for whichever reason (most probably that the majority of America is christian), Christmas has become the "national" December holiday. That is a reality. While I would much rather see the holiday season become completely non-discriminatory, we have to deal with the state of it as it stands. The solution to this is commercialization. In stead of seeing Jesus commercials, you see Santa Claus. So the secular meaning of Christmas has taken the form of giving presents, and showing loved ones that you care for them. I don't think that its a horrible trade.

I don't either, so long as someone doesn't try to completely remove the obvious religious overtones and symbology of the holiday.
People can celebrate the holiday however they see fit... but when they try to completely remove the religious significance of the holiday because it gets in the way of the consumerism of the holiday (which is exactly what I see calling the holiday "Xmas" as (which is an accepted viewpoint... look at the usage notes of the source Tromack quoted earlier).

This is not selfish. Christian's who use their religious majority to try and enforce the historical significance are only looking out for themselves. Again, I agree that the nationalization of Christmas is wrong, but it happened. Commercializing the holiday somewhat fixes this error. If you'd like the religion inserted back into christmas, then do it yourselves, in your own homes. Don't force it onto other people, regardless if the majority of people in America follow your beliefs. Don't forget, the majority of Americans are caucasian also, but that doesn't mean you can pander everything to them.

I don't mind that there is a secular aspect to the holiday. But when that secular aspect tries to completely remove the religious aspect that it grew from, that vexes me to no end.

Also, I liked the IDEA of "ChristmaHanukwanzika", not the name. The name sucks. The idea does not.

I don't like the idea, as again it minimalizes religions. I have no problems with secular holidays, and a secular holiday season wouldn't bother me at all. Remove the idea of it including the religious festivals of Channuka and Christmas, and I don't have a problem with it... until they expect us to render tribute unto a world government or some secular idol.

Sumation: If you're going to put christmas EVERYWHERE, you had better make it accessible to EVERYONE. If you don't want to sacrifice the meaning of the holiday in the process, then don't put it everywhere. However, since it already IS everywhere, I don't see commercialization as a bad temporary solution to the problem.

The thing is, it isn't the Church putting Christmas everywhere. It's corporations... it's yet another huge advertising promotion to them.. they get to push thier products. In fact, I can't remember the last time I've actually seen any commericals from the Pope trying to drive up participation during the Christmas Season.

[CrimGhost]

Too bad im Buddhist :cry:

[CaseyRyback]

Christianity is still big in America, and if 1/2 the workforce skips work, what is going to get done?

[punqsux]

so why do you celebrate something you don't believe in? so what is the 'actual meanin of christmas' that you don't wan't to disrespect? If you don't believe in it how can you disrespect it? I don't believe in Friday the 13th.. so I don't mark that day by being afraid or steering clear of it..

CAN YOU NOT READ?! i just told you why i celebrate it!!

the meaning of christmas was ment to mean people who actully practice the holiday as a religious and spitual day. i dont want to disrespect that because i wouldnt want them disrespecting me for what i believe in (tho from this thread it dosent look like i get off so easy :wink:)

you analogy to friday the 13th makes no sence, the date on the calendar does exist, as christmas does exist.

i didnt mean i dont believe in christmas as in christmas dosent exist, i ment it in i dont believe in the religious foundations of the holiday.

[jmcc]

Aren't we forgetting the true meaning of the day: the birth of Santa?

edit: PS: my holiday spirit has already worn off. Them pushing it before Thanksgiving was the last straw for me this year. And boy, do I ever have pity on any retail employees this time of year, not for the extra work they have to do, but for the constant Christmas music playing for all the hours they work. I'd blow my brains out after a couple days of that and they have a month to go...

[Lootr2Core]

Here is a list of the holidays we need to ban ASAP.



Jan 1 New Year's Day Ban it becasue not everyone celebrates the same start of the new year

or that is has been for over 1500 years a Chriistian holiday

Jan 19 Martin Luther King Day Ban it, not all people like blacks

Nor do people like the idea that Rev. Kings message was about Christian Justice.


Feb 14 Valentine's Day Ban it, everyone isnt in love

A Christian Martyr

Feb 16 President's Day Ban it, everyone doesnt like them

2 Christian Presidents--Lincoln and Washington.


Apr 9 Good Friday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Apr 11 Easter Sunday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Apr 12 Easter Monday (Christian) Ban it, religious

I'd agree actually on banning this one.. no religious precedent.. there is no "Easter Monday"

May 9 Mother's Day Ban it, not everyone has a mother

OK to ban however it does mark "honor thy father and mother."

May 31 Memorial Day Ban it, some of those soldiers died in a war that someone didnt like

Read Abe Lincolns proclamation...


Jun 20 Father's Day Ban it, not everyone has a fater
Jul 4 Independence Day Ban it, it may be offensive to other nations


Sep 6 Labor Day Keep it

Keeping the sabbath


Oct 11 Columbus Day Ban it, he was mean to the Indians
\
In SOuth Dakota it is Native American Day.. In North Dakota it is ."Remember Leif Eriicson discovered america hundreds of years before columbus.."


Oct 31 Halloween Ban it, ghosts are scary to some people

ALl Hallows Eve---religious holliday..
Nov 11 Veterans Day Ban it, they fought in wars that some people didnt agree with

Religious holiday..


Nov 25 Thanksgiving Day Ban it because it is mean to animals
Read all the proclamations--christian holiday..


Dec 25 Christmas Day Ban it, religious

duh

[Lootr2Core]

[quote=Lootr2Core]


i didnt mean i dont believe in christmas as in christmas dosent exist, i ment it in i dont believe in the religious foundations of the holiday.

That quote is probably the dumbest thing I've read since DLF! So you say Christmas 'exists' yet don't want to mention the religious foundations which is the only reason of the holliday.. So what Exactly do you celebrate on Christmas and WHY!???

[bignick]

Here is a list of the holidays we need to ban ASAP.

Apr 9 Good Friday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Apr 11 Easter Sunday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Apr 12 Easter Monday (Christian) Ban it, religious

i agree with that as well...i understand what you were saying was a joke, but i hope you realized how ridiculous you sounded outside of how ridiculous you actully were trying to sound

Hey, if people want religion out, then its all or nothing. As JSweeny called several people on, its only ok when it benefits you. How fucked up is that.

[jmcc]

As JSweeny called several people on, its only ok when it benefits you. How shaq-fued up is that.

TOTALLY UNEXPECTE'D!

[punqsux]

[quote=Lootr2Core]


i didnt mean i dont believe in christmas as in christmas dosent exist, i ment it in i dont believe in the religious foundations of the holiday.

That quote is probably the dumbest thing I've read since DLF! So you say Christmas 'exists' yet don't want to mention the religious foundations which is the only reason of the holliday.. So what Exactly do you celebrate on Christmas and WHY!???

dude i swear you must just type random replys without reading the posts you quote.

christmas exists...there is no way around that fact.
i dont believe in the religious foundations of the holiday.
my disbeleif does not make the holiday non-existant.

i already told you what i celebrate on xmas and why, and i already told you i already told you.

[punqsux]

Here is a list of the holidays we need to ban ASAP.

Apr 9 Good Friday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Apr 11 Easter Sunday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Apr 12 Easter Monday (Christian) Ban it, religious

i agree with that as well...i understand what you were saying was a joke, but i hope you realized how ridiculous you sounded outside of how ridiculous you actully were trying to sound

Hey, if people want religion out, then its all or nothing. As JSweeny called several people on, its only ok when it benefits you. How shaq-fued up is that.
how does it benefit me?

[evilmax17]

Here is a list of the holidays we need to ban ASAP.

Apr 9 Good Friday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Apr 11 Easter Sunday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Apr 12 Easter Monday (Christian) Ban it, religious

i agree with that as well...i understand what you were saying was a joke, but i hope you realized how ridiculous you sounded outside of how ridiculous you actully were trying to sound

Hey, if people want religion out, then its all or nothing. As JSweeny called several people on, its only ok when it benefits you. How shaq-fued up is that.

I agree, all or nothing. Yet, Jewish holidays are RARELY seen on tv, and jewish holidays are increasingly not being observed by schools. I think that the schools in my area excuse the Jewish kids on these days, but the rest of us have class.

So as it stands, all CHRISTIAN holidays are being observed, and thats about it. So which is it, all or nothing?

[jmcc]

i didnt mean i dont believe in christmas as in christmas dosent exist, i ment it in i dont believe in the religious foundations of the holiday.

That quote is probably the dumbest thing I've read since DLF! So you say Christmas 'exists' yet don't want to mention the religious foundations which is the only reason of the holliday.. So what Exactly do you celebrate on Christmas and WHY!???

dude i swear you must just type random replys without reading the posts you quote.

christmas exists...there is no way around that fact.
i dont believe in the religious foundations of the holiday.
my disbeleif does not make the holiday non-existant.

i already told you what i celebrate on xmas and why, and i already told you i already told you.

What did you do to the quote tags? And what's this all about?

edit: fixed god's cruelest mistake: the unclosed quote tag.

[moiety]

Aren't we forgetting the true meaning of the day: the birth of Santa?


http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005M2FC.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[Lootr2Core]

[quote=Lootr2Core]


i didnt mean i dont believe in christmas as in christmas dosent exist, i ment it in i dont believe in the religious foundations of the holiday.

That quote is probably the dumbest thing I've read since DLF! So you say Christmas 'exists' yet don't want to mention the religious foundations which is the only reason of the holliday.. So what Exactly do you celebrate on Christmas and WHY!???

dude i swear you must just type random replys without reading the posts you quote.

christmas exists...there is no way around that fact.
i dont believe in the religious foundations of the holiday.
my disbeleif does not make the holiday non-existant.

i already told you what i celebrate on xmas and why, and i already told you i already told you.

And you must not think about what you are typing before you type it.

So in your mind Christmas exists... but you don't believe in it.. Don't you realize that is like me stating that ' I don't believe in the Roman Calander.. but I know this is November 27!?

The holiday is non-existant in your eyes... and it sounds like you are trying to make your belief (or rather disbelief) true in my eyes.

[punqsux]

I agree, all or nothing. Yet, Jewish holidays are RARELY seen on tv, and jewish holidays are increasingly not being observed by schools. I think that the schools in my area excuse the Jewish kids on these days, but the rest of us have class.

So as it stands, all CHRISTIAN holidays are being observed, and thats about it. So which is it, all or nothing?

:applause:

[Lootr2Core]

Here is a list of the holidays we need to ban ASAP.

Apr 9 Good Friday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Apr 11 Easter Sunday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Apr 12 Easter Monday (Christian) Ban it, religious

i agree with that as well...i understand what you were saying was a joke, but i hope you realized how ridiculous you sounded outside of how ridiculous you actully were trying to sound

Hey, if people want religion out, then its all or nothing. As JSweeny called several people on, its only ok when it benefits you. How shaq-fued up is that.

I agree, all or nothing. Yet, Jewish holidays are RARELY seen on tv, and jewish holidays are increasingly not being observed by schools. I think that the schools in my area excuse the Jewish kids on these days, but the rest of us have class.

So as it stands, all CHRISTIAN holidays are being observed, and thats about it. So which is it, all or nothing?

Whats the most popular movie duriing easter/passover? Could it be the 10 commandments starring Charlton Heston. According to Punxsux.. that Jewish stuff shouldn't be seen either ( I would disagree)

[sblymnlcrymnl]

Wow. I didn't know people could be this stupid, but I guess religion just brings this side out.

[punqsux]

And you must not think about what you are typing before you type it.

So in your mind Christmas exists... but you don't believe in it.. Don't you realize that is like me stating that ' I don't believe in the Roman Calander.. but I know this is November 27!?

The holiday is non-existant in your eyes... and it sounds like you are trying to make your belief (or rather disbelief) true in my eyes.

ok i am no longer replying to anything you say in this thread because you are unable to grasp the point im trying to get across no matter how clearly i try and state that point, over and over, your posts are made with no other reason than to incite and im not here for a fight im here for a discussion (heated though it may be, a discussion)

^^

[Lootr2Core]

I agree, all or nothing. Yet, Jewish holidays are RARELY seen on tv, and jewish holidays are increasingly not being observed by schools. I think that the schools in my area excuse the Jewish kids on these days, but the rest of us have class.

So as it stands, all CHRISTIAN holidays are being observed, and thats about it. So which is it, all or nothing?

:applause:

You applaud yet if more Jewish holidays were celebrated would your arguement change?

[Lootr2Core]

And you must not think about what you are typing before you type it.

So in your mind Christmas exists... but you don't believe in it.. Don't you realize that is like me stating that ' I don't believe in the Roman Calander.. but I know this is November 27!?

The holiday is non-existant in your eyes... and it sounds like you are trying to make your belief (or rather disbelief) true in my eyes.

ok i am no longer replying to anything you say in this thread because you are unable to grasp the point im trying to get across no matter how clearly i try and state that point, over and over, your posts are made with no other reason than to incite and im not here for a fight im here for a discussion (heated though it may be, a discussion)

^^

good grief I was thinking the same thing about your thoughts.

Edit: IS IT NO WONDER I CAN"T MAKE SENSE OF YOUR POSTS---such wonderful typing/grammar. CAN YOU NOT READ?! i just told you why i celebrate it!!

the meaning of christmas was ment to mean people who actully practice the holiday as a religious and spitual day. i dont want to disrespect that because i wouldnt want them disrespecting me for what i believe in (tho from this thread it dosent look like i get off so easy Wink)

you analogy to friday the 13th makes no sence, the date on the calendar does exist, as christmas does exist.

i didnt mean i dont believe in christmas as in christmas dosent exist, i ment it in i dont believe in the religious foundations of the holiday.

[moiety]

Wow. I didn't know people could be this stupid, but I guess religion just brings this side out.

If history has shown anything at all, it's that no one can agree when it comes to religion.

[JSweeney]

Here is a list of the holidays we need to ban ASAP.

Apr 9 Good Friday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Apr 11 Easter Sunday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Apr 12 Easter Monday (Christian) Ban it, religious

i agree with that as well...i understand what you were saying was a joke, but i hope you realized how ridiculous you sounded outside of how ridiculous you actully were trying to sound

Hey, if people want religion out, then its all or nothing. As JSweeny called several people on, its only ok when it benefits you. How shaq-fued up is that.

I agree, all or nothing. Yet, Jewish holidays are RARELY seen on tv, and jewish holidays are increasingly not being observed by schools. I think that the schools in my area excuse the Jewish kids on these days, but the rest of us have class.

So as it stands, all CHRISTIAN holidays are being observed, and thats about it. So which is it, all or nothing?

Talk to the corporations and unions... they were the ones that force through most of the paid vacations and holidays.

[bignick]

I agree, all or nothing. Yet, Jewish holidays are RARELY seen on tv, and jewish holidays are increasingly not being observed by schools. I think that the schools in my area excuse the Jewish kids on these days, but the rest of us have class.

So as it stands, all CHRISTIAN holidays are being observed, and thats about it. So which is it, all or nothing?

:applause:

Since the USA is mostly Christian, wouldnt it make sence to celebrate Christian holidays? So Israel shouldnt celebrate Jewish holidays?

[punqsux]

Wow. I didn't know people could be this stupid, but I guess religion just brings this side out.

:rofl: you just summed up what ive been thinking for the past hour

[Lootr2Core]

I agree, all or nothing. Yet, Jewish holidays are RARELY seen on tv, and jewish holidays are increasingly not being observed by schools. I think that the schools in my area excuse the Jewish kids on these days, but the rest of us have class.

So as it stands, all CHRISTIAN holidays are being observed, and thats about it. So which is it, all or nothing?

:applause:

Since the USA is mostly Christian, wouldnt it make sence to celebrate Christian holidays? So Israel shouldnt celebrate Jewish holidays?


No I guess you can't bring that up as religion is bad in some peoples' eyes.

[CaseyRyback]

I agree, all or nothing. Yet, Jewish holidays are RARELY seen on tv, and jewish holidays are increasingly not being observed by schools. I think that the schools in my area excuse the Jewish kids on these days, but the rest of us have class.

So as it stands, all CHRISTIAN holidays are being observed, and thats about it. So which is it, all or nothing?

:applause:

You applaud yet if more Jewish holidays were celebrated would your arguement change?

what about buddist, hindu, rastafarian, satanists?

Christianity is still dominant here in America, if another religion started to challenge Christianity in terms of popularity, then I would assume that their holidays would also be celebrated

EDIT: I guess me, Big Nick, and Loot all see eye to eye on this one

[jmcc]

Wow. I didn't know people could be this stupid, but I guess religion just brings this side out.

:rofl: you just summed up what ive been thinking for the past hour

That's focused thinking.

[punqsux]

I agree, all or nothing. Yet, Jewish holidays are RARELY seen on tv, and jewish holidays are increasingly not being observed by schools. I think that the schools in my area excuse the Jewish kids on these days, but the rest of us have class.

So as it stands, all CHRISTIAN holidays are being observed, and thats about it. So which is it, all or nothing?

:applause:

Since the USA is mostly Christian, wouldnt it make sence to celebrate Christian holidays? So Israel shouldnt celebrate Jewish holidays?

this country was founded on the basis of freedom of religion.
the country recognizing one religious holiday over others is wrong.

like you said, all or nothing as far as national religious holidays go.

[bignick]

I agree, all or nothing. Yet, Jewish holidays are RARELY seen on tv, and jewish holidays are increasingly not being observed by schools. I think that the schools in my area excuse the Jewish kids on these days, but the rest of us have class.

So as it stands, all CHRISTIAN holidays are being observed, and thats about it. So which is it, all or nothing?

:applause:

You applaud yet if more Jewish holidays were celebrated would your arguement change?

what about buddist, hindu, rastafarian, satanists?

Christianity is still dominant here in America, if another religion started to challenge Christianity in terms of popularity, then I would assume that their holidays would also be celebrated

EDIT: I guess me, Big Nick, and Loot all see eye to eye on this one

I would be cool with a national rastafarian day. Say April 20th.

[JSweeney]

Wow. I didn't know people could be this stupid, but I guess religion just brings this side out.

:rofl: you just summed up what ive been thinking for the past hour

Yes, because everyone who has agreed with you has been nothing but polite, logical and reasonable, right?

Please.

In fact, that's probably one of the most ridiculously rude and short sighted things I've ever seen sblymnlcrymnl write. I've yet to see anyone chastise him for being athiest, but it's fine to play take a cheapshot on the Christians, right?

What's next, maybe a couple of lions?

[sblymnlcrymnl]

I agree, all or nothing. Yet, Jewish holidays are RARELY seen on tv, and jewish holidays are increasingly not being observed by schools. I think that the schools in my area excuse the Jewish kids on these days, but the rest of us have class.

So as it stands, all CHRISTIAN holidays are being observed, and thats about it. So which is it, all or nothing?

:applause:

You applaud yet if more Jewish holidays were celebrated would your arguement change?

what about buddist, hindu, rastafarian, satanists?

Christianity is still dominant here in America, if another religion started to challenge Christianity in terms of popularity, then I would assume that their holidays would also be celebrated

EDIT: I guess me, Big Nick, and Loot all see eye to eye on this one

I don't believe that any holiday from any religion should be celebrated or even acknowledged by the government. End of story.

[Lootr2Core]

I agree, all or nothing. Yet, Jewish holidays are RARELY seen on tv, and jewish holidays are increasingly not being observed by schools. I think that the schools in my area excuse the Jewish kids on these days, but the rest of us have class.

So as it stands, all CHRISTIAN holidays are being observed, and thats about it. So which is it, all or nothing?

:applause:

Since the USA is mostly Christian, wouldnt it make sence to celebrate Christian holidays? So Israel shouldnt celebrate Jewish holidays?

this country was founded on the basis of freedom of religion.
the country recognizing one religious holiday over others is wrong.

like you said, all or nothing as far as national religious holidays go.

should one toss out the declaration of independance as well?

[jmcc]

I agree, all or nothing. Yet, Jewish holidays are RARELY seen on tv, and jewish holidays are increasingly not being observed by schools. I think that the schools in my area excuse the Jewish kids on these days, but the rest of us have class.

So as it stands, all CHRISTIAN holidays are being observed, and thats about it. So which is it, all or nothing?

:applause:

You applaud yet if more Jewish holidays were celebrated would your arguement change?

what about buddist, hindu, rastafarian, satanists?

Christianity is still dominant here in America, if another religion started to challenge Christianity in terms of popularity, then I would assume that their holidays would also be celebrated

EDIT: I guess me, Big Nick, and Loot all see eye to eye on this one

Me too. Christmas is a time when people of all religions come together to worship Jesus Christ.

[jmcc]

Wow. I didn't know people could be this stupid, but I guess religion just brings this side out.

:rofl: you just summed up what ive been thinking for the past hour

Yes, because everyone who has agreed with you has been nothing but polite, logical and reasonable, right?

Please.

In fact, that's probably one of the most ridiculously rude and short sighted things I've ever seen sblymnlcrymnl write. I've yet to see anyone chastise him for being athiest, but it's fine to play take a cheapshot on the Christians, right?

What's next, maybe a couple of lions?

Yeah, but he'll get his in hell. Blasphemers always do.

[Lootr2Core]

I agree, all or nothing. Yet, Jewish holidays are RARELY seen on tv, and jewish holidays are increasingly not being observed by schools. I think that the schools in my area excuse the Jewish kids on these days, but the rest of us have class.

So as it stands, all CHRISTIAN holidays are being observed, and thats about it. So which is it, all or nothing?

:applause:

You applaud yet if more Jewish holidays were celebrated would your arguement change?

what about buddist, hindu, rastafarian, satanists?

Christianity is still dominant here in America, if another religion started to challenge Christianity in terms of popularity, then I would assume that their holidays would also be celebrated

EDIT: I guess me, Big Nick, and Loot all see eye to eye on this one

amen amen

[evilmax17]

What's next, maybe a couple of lions?

Hey homie, you guys are in the majority. The Christians don't have that underdog thing going for them anymore.

[bignick]

I agree, all or nothing. Yet, Jewish holidays are RARELY seen on tv, and jewish holidays are increasingly not being observed by schools. I think that the schools in my area excuse the Jewish kids on these days, but the rest of us have class.

So as it stands, all CHRISTIAN holidays are being observed, and thats about it. So which is it, all or nothing?

:applause:

Since the USA is mostly Christian, wouldnt it make sence to celebrate Christian holidays? So Israel shouldnt celebrate Jewish holidays?

this country was founded on the basis of freedom of religion.
the country recognizing one religious holiday over others is wrong.

like you said, all or nothing as far as national religious holidays go.

should one toss out the declaration of independance as well?

You have to, it has refrences to God in it.

[sblymnlcrymnl]

Wow. I didn't know people could be this stupid, but I guess religion just brings this side out.

:rofl: you just summed up what ive been thinking for the past hour

Yes, because everyone who has agreed with you has been nothing but polite, logical and reasonable, right?

Please.

In fact, that's probably one of the most ridiculously rude and short sighted things I've ever seen sblymnlcrymnl write. I've yet to see anyone chastise him for being athiest, but it's fine to play take a cheapshot on the Christians, right?

What's next, maybe a couple of lions?

Maybe it came out slightly worse than I meant it, but my point was that religion brings out the worst on all sides. From what I've seen punq has stated his position very clearly but many here don't seem to get it or just don't want to accept it. This is one of those areas where everyone should just agree to disagree and leave it.

[bignick]

Wow. I didn't know people could be this stupid, but I guess religion just brings this side out.

:rofl: you just summed up what ive been thinking for the past hour

Yes, because everyone who has agreed with you has been nothing but polite, logical and reasonable, right?

Please.

In fact, that's probably one of the most ridiculously rude and short sighted things I've ever seen sblymnlcrymnl write. I've yet to see anyone chastise him for being athiest, but it's fine to play take a cheapshot on the Christians, right?

What's next, maybe a couple of lions?

Maybe it came out slightly worse than I meant it, but but point was that religion brings out the worst on all sides. From what I've seen punq has stated his position very clearly but many here don't seem to get it or just don't want to accept it. This is one of those areas where everyone should just agree to disagree and leave it.

If everyone agreed to disagree, things would suck, big time.

[Lootr2Core]

Wow. I didn't know people could be this stupid, but I guess religion just brings this side out.

:rofl: you just summed up what ive been thinking for the past hour

Yes, because everyone who has agreed with you has been nothing but polite, logical and reasonable, right?

Please.

In fact, that's probably one of the most ridiculously rude and short sighted things I've ever seen sblymnlcrymnl write. I've yet to see anyone chastise him for being athiest, but it's fine to play take a cheapshot on the Christians, right?

What's next, maybe a couple of lions?

Maybe it came out slightly worse than I meant it, but but point was that religion brings out the worst on all sides. From what I've seen punq has stated his position very clearly but many here don't seem to get it or just don't want to accept it. This is one of those areas where everyone should just agree to disagree and leave it.

has he agreed to leave the 'other side' alone? seems like he spoke against CHRISTmas and didn't leave it alone and let folks opinions be there own..

[JSweeney]

I agree, all or nothing. Yet, Jewish holidays are RARELY seen on tv, and jewish holidays are increasingly not being observed by schools. I think that the schools in my area excuse the Jewish kids on these days, but the rest of us have class.

So as it stands, all CHRISTIAN holidays are being observed, and thats about it. So which is it, all or nothing?

:applause:

You applaud yet if more Jewish holidays were celebrated would your arguement change?

what about buddist, hindu, rastafarian, satanists?

Christianity is still dominant here in America, if another religion started to challenge Christianity in terms of popularity, then I would assume that their holidays would also be celebrated

EDIT: I guess me, Big Nick, and Loot all see eye to eye on this one

I don't believe that any holiday from any religion should be celebrated or even acknowledged by the government. End of story.

That'd be nice. You can expect that to happen when the White House and both houses of Congress are inhabited by robots. Since Christianity is still a majority of the religious make up of the US, it only makes sense that the same would be true for Congress. As there must be a quorum in place for legislation to go forth, and since those practicioners of a religion would take those holidays of, and a qourum could not be met.
It only makes sense for it to be a holiday for all the members, as since the quorum would not be met, no business would be transacted anyway.

You can't compel those members to not take that holiday, as that would be abridging the free exercise of thier religion.

[punqsux]

Maybe it came out slightly worse than I meant it, but but point was that religion brings out the worst on all sides. From what I've seen punq has stated his position very clearly but many here don't seem to get it or just don't want to accept it. This is one of those areas where everyone should just agree to disagree and leave it.

thank you, i have done my best to be civil and clear in this topic, but all i end up getting from people are smartass contradicting statements that have nothing to do with anything

i was starting to question my sanity
...now im questioning yours as well :wink:

[sblymnlcrymnl]

If everyone agreed to disagree, things would suck, big time.
No one will ever agree on this issue, and no progress will be made if we continue this way.

has he agreed to leave the 'other side' alone? seems like he spoke against CHRISTmas and didn't leave it alone and let folks opinions be there own..

As I see it, he really didn't speak against christmas and "let folks opinions be there own" is exactly what he's trying to do.

[Lootr2Core]

If everyone agreed to disagree, things would suck, big time.
No one will ever agree on this issue, and no progress will be made if we continue this way.

has he agreed to leave the 'other side' alone? seems like he spoke against CHRISTmas and didn't leave it alone and let folks opinions be there own..

As I see it, he really didn't speak against christmas and "let folks opinions be there own" is exactly what he's trying to do.

by stating he wants to take CHRIST out of Christmas is not not 'letting folks opiinion be there own' but speaking against Christ..which is unbelievable !

[evilmax17]

by stating he wants to take CHRIST out of Christmas is not not 'letting folks opiinion be there own' but speaking against Christ..which is unbelievable !

The fact that you "can't believe" that not EVERYBODY would agree with your religious viewpoint is a testament to your intelligence.

[jmcc]

If everyone agreed to disagree, things would suck, big time.
No one will ever agree on this issue, and no progress will be made if we continue this way.

has he agreed to leave the 'other side' alone? seems like he spoke against CHRISTmas and didn't leave it alone and let folks opinions be there own..

As I see it, he really didn't speak against christmas and "let folks opinions be there own" is exactly what he's trying to do.

by stating he wants to take CHRIST out of Christmas is not not 'letting folks opiinion be there own' but speaking against Christ..which is unbelievable !

Unbelievable?

[sblymnlcrymnl]

That'd be nice. You can expect that to happen when the White House and both houses of Congress are inhabited by robots. Since Christianity is still a majority of the religious make up of the US, it only makes sense that the same would be true for Congress. As there must be a quorum in place for legislation to go forth. Since those practicioners of a religion would take those holidays of, and a qourum could not be met, it only makes sense for it to be a holiday for all the members, as since the quorum would not be met, no business would be transacted anyway.

You can't compel those members to not take that holiday, as that would be abridging thier free exercise of thier religion.

I have no problem with people taking days off to celebrate their own beliefs, and it is true that the country would pretty much stop working anyway. Still, I find governmental support of any belief system to be fundamentally wrong. Like nick said, all or none.

thank you, i have done my best to be civil and clear in this topic, but all i end up getting from people are smartass contradicting statements that have nothing to do with anything

i was starting to question my sanity
...now im questioning yours as well :wink:
:lol:

[punqsux]

The legitimate powers
of government extend to such acts
only as are injurious to others.
But it does me no injury
for my neighbor to say
there are twenty gods, or no God.
It neither picks my pocket
nor breaks my leg.

[Lootr2Core]

If everyone agreed to disagree, things would suck, big time.
No one will ever agree on this issue, and no progress will be made if we continue this way.

has he agreed to leave the 'other side' alone? seems like he spoke against CHRISTmas and didn't leave it alone and let folks opinions be there own..

As I see it, he really didn't speak against christmas and "let folks opinions be there own" is exactly what he's trying to do.

by stating he wants to take CHRIST out of Christmas is not not 'letting folks opiinion be there own' but speaking against Christ..which is unbelievable !

Unbelievable?

unbelievable==hyprocasy,

[sj41]

Here is a list of the holidays we need to ban ASAP.



Jan 1 New Year's Day Ban it becasue not everyone celebrates the same start of the new year
Jan 19 Martin Luther King Day Ban it, not all people like blacks
Feb 14 Valentine's Day Ban it, everyone isnt in love

Feb 16 President's Day Ban it, everyone doesnt like them
Apr 9 Good Friday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Apr 11 Easter Sunday (Christian) Ban it, religious
Apr 12 Easter Monday (Christian) Ban it, religious
May 9 Mother's Day Ban it, not everyone has a mother
May 31 Memorial Day Ban it, some of those soldiers died in a war that someone didnt like
Jun 20 Father's Day Ban it, not everyone has a fater
Jul 4 Independence Day Ban it, it may be offensive to other nations
Sep 6 Labor Day Keep it
Oct 11 Columbus Day Ban it, he was mean to the Indians
Oct 31 Halloween Ban it, ghosts are scary to some people
Nov 11 Veterans Day Ban it, they fought in wars that some people didnt agree with
Nov 25 Thanksgiving Day Ban it because it is mean to animals
Dec 25 Christmas Day Ban it, religious:rofl:

I like this one the best:

Oct 31 Halloween Ban it, ghosts are scary to some people

:rofl:

[Lootr2Core]

The legitimate powers
of government extend to such acts
only as are injurious to others.
But it does me no injury
for my neighbor to say
there are twenty gods, or no God.
It neither picks my pocket
nor breaks my leg.


sounds like you are claiming that Christmas breaks your leg and picks your pocket.. why argue so much against CHRISTmass?

[sblymnlcrymnl]

by stating he wants to take CHRIST out of Christmas is not not 'letting folks opiinion be there own' but speaking against Christ..which is unbelievable !

He did not say that so quit acting as though he did. Obviously you just don't want to accept his personal beliefs, and that's fine, but please stop acting (I hope) like you don't understand what he's said here.

[punqsux]

lootr, i would like to say that you are a very vindictive person. i stated that i would not be replying to your further statements on the issues, and for some reason you saw this as an open invitation to bash me and the things i said, seriously, fuck you.

i was being the bigger man and admitting that we would most likley never understand each others views on the topic, and i accepted that, and all you did was continue posting shit about me, its very sad that you cant accept the fact that we think diffrentl;y, that you would have to continue attacking me after i said i was done with the issue with you.

[jmcc]

It would take some kind of hella sensative and timely picture to defuse this heated argument. Here we go:

http://www.uprightcitizens.org/10/images/satan.jpg

[Lootr2Core]

by stating he wants to take CHRIST out of Christmas is not not 'letting folks opiinion be there own' but speaking against Christ..which is unbelievable !

He did not say that so quit acting as though he did. Obviously you just don't want to accept his personal beliefs, and that's fine, but please stop acting (I hope) like you don't understand what he's said here.
hmmm so when he said, "

Post Posted: November 27, 2004, 12:44 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

evilmax17 wrote:
I'm all for taking the "Christ" out of Christmas.

i agree with you fully, and thats why i call it xmas




that was taken out of context eh?

[bignick]

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!

Im out.

[Lootr2Core]

lootr, i would like to say that you are a very vindictive person. i stated that i would not be replying to your further statements on the issues, and for some reason you saw this as an open invitation to bash me and the things i said, seriously, shaq-fu you.

i was being the bigger man and admitting that we would most likley never understand each others views on the topic, and i accepted that, and all you did was continue posting shit about me, its very sad that you cant accept the fact that we think diffrentl;y, that you would have to continue attacking me after i said i was done with the issue with you.

Where was this that you said you would not be replying? Where was it you said you were 'done with the issue?"

[sblymnlcrymnl]

evilmax17 wrote:
I'm all for taking the "Christ" out of Christmas.

i agree with you fully, and thats why i call it xmas

He also said that PERSONALLY he makes a decision to "take the 'Christ'" out of Christmas BUT he doesn't disrespect other's beliefs by expecting them to do the same.

This is a PERSONAL decision which affects his life only, why do you have such a problem with that?

EDIT:
Where was this that you said you would not be replying? Where was it you said you were 'done with the issue?"

Well, you've just proven who the bigger man is here.

Hint: Not you.

[punqsux]

lootr, i would like to say that you are a very vindictive person. i stated that i would not be replying to your further statements on the issues, and for some reason you saw this as an open invitation to bash me and the things i said, seriously, shaq-fu you.

i was being the bigger man and admitting that we would most likley never understand each others views on the topic, and i accepted that, and all you did was continue posting shit about me, its very sad that you cant accept the fact that we think diffrentl;y, that you would have to continue attacking me after i said i was done with the issue with you.

Where was this that you said you would not be replying? Where was it you said you were 'done with the issue?"

ok i am no longer replying to anything you say in this thread because you are unable to grasp the point im trying to get across no matter how clearly i try and state that point, over and over, your posts are made with no other reason than to incite and im not here for a fight im here for a discussion

i did not word for word say i was done discussing this with you, but i do believe its painfully obvious from the post.

[Lootr2Core]

evilmax17 wrote:
I'm all for taking the "Christ" out of Christmas.

i agree with you fully, and thats why i call it xmas

He also said that PERSONALLY he makes a decision to "take the 'Christ'" out of Christmas BUT he doesn't disrespect other's beliefs by expecting them to do the same.

This is a PERSONAL decision which affects his life only, why do you have such a problem with that?


SO why do you and Punx have such problems with me calling your beliefs on Christmas stupid? after all its only my beliefs and it doesn't really harm you right?

[Lootr2Core]

lootr, i would like to say that you are a very vindictive person. i stated that i would not be replying to your further statements on the issues, and for some reason you saw this as an open invitation to bash me and the things i said, seriously, shaq-fu you.

i was being the bigger man and admitting that we would most likley never understand each others views on the topic, and i accepted that, and all you did was continue posting shit about me, its very sad that you cant accept the fact that we think diffrentl;y, that you would have to continue attacking me after i said i was done with the issue with you.

Where was this that you said you would not be replying? Where was it you said you were 'done with the issue?"

ok i am no longer replying to anything you say in this thread because you are unable to grasp the point im trying to get across no matter how clearly i try and state that point, over and over, your posts are made with no other reason than to incite and im not here for a fight im here for a discussion

i did not word for word say i was done discussing this with you, but i do believe its painfully obvious from the post.

how is it painfully obvious?

[JSweeney]

evilmax17 wrote:
I'm all for taking the "Christ" out of Christmas.

i agree with you fully, and thats why i call it xmas

He also said that PERSONALLY he makes a decision to "take the 'Christ'" out of Christmas BUT he doesn't disrespect other's beliefs by expecting them to do the same.

This is a PERSONAL decision which affects his life only, why do you have such a problem with that?

So, if I personally made the decision to call all African Americans the well known slur typically uttered against them, but didn't expect others to do the same, it would be ok and completely unoffensive, right?

I consider Xmas to be a slur against the Christmas holiday, as they are two radically different things...
one is a secular commercialized celebration, and one is a solemn religous occasion celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ.

[sblymnlcrymnl]

SO why do you and Punx have such problems with me calling your beliefs on Christmas stupid? after all its only my beliefs and it doesn't really harm you right?

Your beliefs don't, but when you put words in someone's mouth they tend to want to set the record straight. You just won't drop it.

[Lootr2Core]

SO why do you and Punx have such problems with me calling your beliefs on Christmas stupid? after all its only my beliefs and it doesn't really harm you right?

Your beliefs don't, but when you put words in someone's mouth they tend to want to set the record straight. You just won't drop it.

How have I put words in someone's mouth?

[sblymnlcrymnl]

evilmax17 wrote:
I'm all for taking the "Christ" out of Christmas.

i agree with you fully, and thats why i call it xmas

He also said that PERSONALLY he makes a decision to "take the 'Christ'" out of Christmas BUT he doesn't disrespect other's beliefs by expecting them to do the same.

This is a PERSONAL decision which affects his life only, why do you have such a problem with that?

So, if I personally made the decision to call all African Americans the well known slur typically uttered against them, but didn't expect others to do the same, it would be ok and completely unoffensive, right?

I consider Xmas to be a slur against the Christmas holiday, as they are two radically different things...
one is a secular commercialized celebration, and one is a solemn religous occasion celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ.

I can understand that, but if you can easily seperate them like that when why would you take so much offense? He's made it clear which one he is talking about. If you look at it as two distinct holidays, then how has he attacked your beliefs?

[punqsux]

I consider Xmas to be a slur against the Christmas holiday, as they are two radically different things...
one is a secular commercialized celebration, and one is a solemn religous occasion celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ.

and i celebrate the commercial end of it. which you just defined as xmas.

however, if ive offended you, or anyone else, lootr excluded, i apologize, because i didnt mean to.

[Lootr2Core]

I consider Xmas to be a slur against the Christmas holiday, as they are two radically different things...
one is a secular commercialized celebration, and one is a solemn religous occasion celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ.

and i celebrate the commercial end of it. which you just defined as xmas.

however, if ive offended you, or anyone else, lootr excluded, i apologize, because i didnt mean to.


Dang... here I was hoping kind words...

[evilmax17]

evilmax17 wrote:
I'm all for taking the "Christ" out of Christmas.

i agree with you fully, and thats why i call it xmas

He also said that PERSONALLY he makes a decision to "take the 'Christ'" out of Christmas BUT he doesn't disrespect other's beliefs by expecting them to do the same.

This is a PERSONAL decision which affects his life only, why do you have such a problem with that?

So, if I personally made the decision to call all African Americans the well known slur typically uttered against them, but didn't expect others to do the same, it would be ok and completely unoffensive, right?

I consider Xmas to be a slur against the Christmas holiday, as they are two radically different things...
one is a secular commercialized celebration, and one is a solemn religous occasion celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ.

J, I can see how you're thinking what you are, but you fail to realize that you are in the majority (which makes a HUGE difference). For example, the n-word carries a much higher taboo factor than saying "whitey" or "cracka" (partly because of the history behind the n-word, but also because of the caucasian majority).

When a small group of people disagrees with the majority, it is favorable for the majority to "tolerate" the smaller groups beliefs.
The converse of this would be the majority bullishly trying to squelch the smaller group's beliefs, which looks tyranical.

Btw, there's something seriously skewed about relating the n-word and Xmas.

[punqsux]

Dang... here I was hoping kind words...

although i realize that was sarcasm, you had your chance.
i had no problem with you until i withdrew from your replys and you kept harassing me.
i dont see how i could have more clearly made some sort of peace between us than i attempted.
so again, fuck you.

[JSweeney]

I consider Xmas to be a slur against the Christmas holiday, as they are two radically different things...
one is a secular commercialized celebration, and one is a solemn religous occasion celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ.

and i celebrate the commercial end of it. which you just defined as xmas.

however, if ive offended you, or anyone else, lootr excluded, i apologize, because i didnt mean to.

I can live with that.
In fact, punqsux, all I really wanted you to see was that by referring to the celebration as a whole as Xmas that it could be offensive.
Other issues got entangled because of the multitudes of other posters throwing around other topics that added into the thread.

I respect that you only want to celebrate the secular end of the holiday.
At this point, we both see and agree on this.
Earlier, your posts read more to the effect that you ONLY saw the holiday as Xmas, which completely disregarded the entire Christian holiday...
that was my major point of contention with what you were saying.
There were other issues, but as I said before, most of those were introduced by other posters.

[Lootr2Core]

evilmax17 wrote:
I'm all for taking the "Christ" out of Christmas.

i agree with you fully, and thats why i call it xmas

He also said that PERSONALLY he makes a decision to "take the 'Christ'" out of Christmas BUT he doesn't disrespect other's beliefs by expecting them to do the same.

This is a PERSONAL decision which affects his life only, why do you have such a problem with that?

So, if I personally made the decision to call all African Americans the well known slur typically uttered against them, but didn't expect others to do the same, it would be ok and completely unoffensive, right?

I consider Xmas to be a slur against the Christmas holiday, as they are two radically different things...
one is a secular commercialized celebration, and one is a solemn religous occasion celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ.

The commercialized celebration is the worst thing, I'm not sure why so many complain about the ;relgious holidays' as most of them has me usurped by capitalism.. easter---easterbunny, christmast--santa clause-- epiphany---new years,

[Lootr2Core]

Dang... here I was hoping kind words...

although i realize that was sarcasm, you had your chance.
i had no problem with you until i withdrew from your replys and you kept harassing me.
i dont see how i could have more clearly made some sort of peace between us than i attempted.
so again, shaq-fu you.

please show me what I missed...

[JSweeney]

J, I can see how you're thinking what you are, but you fail to realize that you are in the majority (which makes a HUGE difference). For example, the n-word carries a much higher taboo factor than saying "whitey" or "cracka" (partly because of the history behind the n-word, but also because of the caucasian majority).

When a small group of people disagrees with the majority, it is favorable for the majority to "tolerate" the smaller groups beliefs.
The converse of this would be the majority bullishly trying to squelch the smaller group's beliefs, which looks tyranical.

Btw, there's something seriously skewed about relating the n-word and Xmas.

Most of what you are saying is moot, as I was only applying the logical argument of Reductio ad absurdum. Of course my argument was absurd. It was specifically that way to show the logic that sblymnl was using was not valid. As I obviously don't believe them to be corralaries, your arguments about that fall on deaf ears.

[punqsux]

please show me what I missed...

heres what you missed.

on page 5 i realized we would likley never have a common agreement on the subject, so i agreed to disagree and said i wouldnt debate the point any further with you.

on page 6:
-you prooved what a big man you were by attacking my spelling and grammar after i attempted a truce, neither of which i check when typing on message boards.
-you put the words in my mouth "religion is bad", which i dont feel, its just not for me.

on page 7:
-you accused me of not letting peoples opinions be their own, which i never said.
-you said that i said "CHRISTmas" hurts me, which i didnt.

back on page 5, i decided to no longer dispute the issue with you, and you took it as an open invitation to harass me to no end and put words in my mouth!

[jmcc]

So, I guess the universal points that can be drawn after all this catfighting are:

1. Commercialization of any spiritual event is bad.
2. The government really shouldn't meddle in religious stuff at all, but there's nothing that can be done about it at this point.

[x0thedeadzone0x]

WOAH guys. Just WOW. I come through this thread 9 pages long and expect to see a hell of a christmas spirit, and it's a full-scale flame war against someone who doesn't believe in what you do? Just because someone doesn't believe in Christ, the "true" meaning of Christmas (Which is Jesus) and that includes myself, I am an atheist and curse me all you like but that's what I believe, and my beliefs stand, doesn't mean that he's trying to degrade anything. Punq has done virtually nothing here besides state that he does not celebrate the birth of christ or take Christmas as a religious holiday but rather see it as a more widespread holiday for a time of rejoicing, GIVING and spending time with one another. Yet you all decide to flame him to no end.

I also don't see the point of trying to sound like he's demoralized Christmas simply by calling it Xmas. It's an abbreviation, and certainly not implied to be a horrid and vulgar slang term in which all Christians around the world cringe in utter loathing and disgust when someone says it. It's simply a word. Relating it to a white calling a black a n*gger is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. One is obviously inflammatory and hateful, the other is not. I personally have no problem with someone calling it Xmas. Jesus, you guys get your panties in a bunch way too easily. He's not bastardizing it for not emphasizing the Christ in Christmas. And if you have a problem with that, you have a problem with me and just about every other atheist, and even if you don't agree with us you're choosing to disrespect us and our wishes, making yourself a hypocrite.

I agree with sblymnl on this one, people get extremely uptight about religion, especially Christian fanboys who come and decide to take everything one says as literally as possible and then misinterpret or misquote them on what they stated. Punq, I'm sorry that you were dragged into this and I truly feel bad for you because I understand your perspective. Unfortunately others do not, and I probably dragged myself into this as well.

Since religion is such a strong topic, perhaps this should be moved to the VS mode?

[jmcc]

I can't stop laughing at "Christian fanboys." It's just funny for some reason.

[x0thedeadzone0x]

Well sure. I take the term Christian fanboys loosely though, as in this particular case I see it as a group of people associated with one religion pressing their beliefs onto others or ridiculing or misquoting someone else who they do not agree with.

[sblymnlcrymnl]

Well sure. I take the term Christian fanboys loosely though, as in this particular case I see it as a group of people associated with one religion pressing their beliefs onto others or ridiculing or misquoting someone else who they do not agree with.

http://img74.exs.cx/img74/9529/sf20010117.gif

[JSweeney]

WOAH guys. Just WOW. I come through this thread 9 pages long and expect to see a hell of a christmas spirit, and it's a full-scale flame war against someone who doesn't believe in what you do? Just because someone doesn't believe in Christ, the "true" meaning of Christmas (Which is Jesus) and that includes myself, I am an atheist and curse me all you like but that's what I believe, and my beliefs stand, doesn't mean that he's trying to degrade anything. Punq has done virtually nothing here besides state that he does not celebrate the birth of christ or take Christmas as a religious holiday but rather see it as a more widespread holiday for a time of rejoicing, GIVING and spending time with one another. Yet you all decide to flame him to no end.

You're being very hypocritical, here, deadzone. We are supposed to be respectful of your beliefs and traditions, yet it's fine for you (and others) to go in degrading mine because it's more commonplace and accepted?

I also don't see the point of trying to sound like he's demoralized Christmas simply by calling it Xmas. It's an abbreviation, and certainly not implied to be a horrid and vulgar slang term in which all Christians around the world cringe in utter loathing and disgust when someone says it. It's simply a word.

Technically, it isn't any more. Look at the bartleby source that Tromack gave a few pages back. It specifically mentions the distaste for the use of that abbreivation in it's usage notes. Words carry connotations with them... and XMAS no longer carries a postitive one.

Relating it to a white calling a black a n*gger is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. One is obviously inflammatory and hateful, the other is not. I personally have no problem with someone calling it Xmas. Jesus, you guys get your panties in a bunch way too easily. He's not bastardizing it for not emphasizing the Christ in Christmas.

A — He also said that PERSONALLY he makes a decision to "take the 'Christ'" out of Christmas BUT he doesn't disrespect other's beliefs by expecting them to do the same.

1-According to your statement, this belief is valid.
2-If this belief is valid, all beliefs of the same structure should be valid.
3-Thus, if I personally made the decision to call all African Americans the well known slur typically uttered against them, but didn't expect others to do the same, it would be ok.

As point three is obviously absurd, the original statement cannot be logically true. I guess already saying it was intentionally absurd wasn't enough... I have to write out the proof.

And if you have a problem with that, you have a problem with me and just about every other atheist, and even if you don't agree with us you're choosing to disrespect us and our wishes, making yourself a hypocrite.

Yet, it's ok to continuously berate mine, eh?
Yep, "Christian fanboys" sounds like something someone respectful of one's beliefs would say.

I agree with sblymnl on this one, people get extremely uptight about religion, especially Christian fanboys who come and decide to take everything one says as literally as possible and then misinterpret or misquote them on what they stated. Punq, I'm sorry that you were dragged into this and I truly feel bad for you because I understand your perspective. Unfortunately others do not, and I probably dragged myself into this as well.

It's easy to agree with those who agree with you. Punqsux and I reached an understanding, and we began at complete opposite points. This is not trival. Your agreement with Sblymnl is. That would be like saying I agreed with BigNick or Loot2Core. Anyone who has the ability to read the passages can figure that out for themselves.
This thread actually HAD a useful conclusion, because Punqsux and I came to a loosely defined set of terms and agreement.

[Lootr2Core]

^^ nice post JSsweeny,

[x0thedeadzone0x]

You're being very hypocritical, here, deadzone. We are supposed to be respect of you your beliefs and traditions, yet it's fine for you (and others) to go in degrading mine because it's more commonplace and accepted?

I was simply stating that if you chose to demoralize our beliefs no matter how much you might disagree with them that you were being hypocritical yourself. I did not in any way degrade Christ, the true meaning of christmas or any other beliefs of yours. I do respect Christians and their decisions to believe in what they like, but that doesn't mean that I am inclined to believe everything they say myself.

Technically, it isn't any more. Look at the bartleby source that Tromack gave a few pages back. It specifically mentions the distaste for the use of that abbreivation in it's usage notes. Words carry connotations with them... and XMAS no longer carries a postitive one.

Please, Jsweeney... this is what I'm talking about. I'm sure even you can admit that when punq says "xmas" in abbreviation for christmas, he's not using it in malicious intent to get jibes at Christians nearby. It's just a common phrase and, if you think it offensive, that's your decision but generally it's not known to be a vulgar obscenity, so stop acting like he's corrupting the word christmas.

A — He also said that PERSONALLY he makes a decision to "take the 'Christ'" out of Christmas BUT he doesn't disrespect other's beliefs by expecting them to do the same.

1-According to your statement, this belief is valid.
2-If this belief is valid, all beliefs of the same structure should be valid.
3-Thus, if I personally made the decision to call all African Americans the well known slur typically uttered against them, but didn't expect others to do the same, it would be ok and completely unoffensive, right?

As point three is obviously absurd, the original statement cannot be logically true. I guess already saying it was intentionally absurd wasn't enough... I have to write out the proof.

I'm not quite understanding you here, JS. He has the right to do what he likes in the world, this is why the country is free, we have our independence and choices to believe in what we want if anything at all. By taking the christ out of christmas he most likely means not LITERALLY, but like me, he doesn't particularly emphasize that part of the holiday. He also said that he respects other peoples decisions TO emphasize that part of the holiday. Immoralizing holidays themselves is an entirely different subject, look at Easter. Parents have weaved magical fairy tales for their sons and daughters that a giant bunny hops from door to door delivering chocolate filled eggs. What exactly was the original purpose of that holiday, hmm? The point is, not every american chooses to celebrate holidays like they should, and it's his right to express his beliefs or non-beliefs how he likes. It is NOT meant to be inflammatory to Christians by not emphasizing Christ in christmas. It may be focused primarily on Jesus for everyone else, but not for atheists or non-believers in God/Christ/etc.

Yet, it's ok to continuously berate mine, eh?
Yep, "Christian fanboys" sounds like something someone respectful of one's beliefs would say.

Like I said, I used that term loosely. If this is going to be like punq and I have to constantly reiterate myself and my opinions I don't want a part of this. A constructive conversation and better understanding, sure, but not that.

And specifically I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to another certain individual on the board who likes to misquote punq, replace words that he said for something entirely different in meaning and jump to conclusions.

It's easy to agree with those who agree with you. Punqsux and I reached an understanding, and we began at complete opposite points. This is not trival. Your agreement with Sblymnl is. That would be like saying I agreed with BigNick or Loot2Core. Anyone who has the ability to read the passages can figure that out for themselves.
This thread actually HAD a useful conclusion, because Punqsux and I came to a loosely defined set of terms and agreement.

OK, but that still doesn't change the fact I agree with him. He is just a part of this thread as you are so don't dismiss my sentence that easily. You can say you agree with Bignick or lootr2core all you like.
And lootr2 wasn't quite finished in flaming punq or so I believed, so no, it did not come to a peaceful and happy resolution. I read the thread and decided to put my input into it.

[Lootr2Core]

OK, but that still doesn't change the fact I agree with him. He is just a part of this thread as you are so don't dismiss my sentence that easily. You can say you agree with Bignick or lootr2core all you like.
And lootr2 wasn't quite finished in flaming punq or so I believed, so no, it did not come to a peaceful and happy resolution. I read the thread and decided to put my input into it.


The only flame that I really saw was my (ill chosen words of 'You sir are a moron) for that I do apologize. I know that punxs is not a moron nor is evilmax. I really saw the rest of the thread as debate/arguement which is always more difficult to do online and not face to face. So punx, I apologize for calling you a moron I shouldn't have done that.


deadzone-- I don't think that disagreement is synonomous with flaming.

[x0thedeadzone0x]

That's what I was referring to. Ah well, I forgive you, hopefully punq does too, I'm glad you can say you're sorry and for that I do give you some respect.

[JSweeney]

I was simply stating that if you choosed to demoralize our beliefs no matter how much you might disagree with them that you were being hypocritical yourself. I did not in any way degrade Christ, the true meaning of christmas or any other beliefs of yours. I do respect Christians and their decisions to believe in what they like, but that doesn't mean that I am inclined to believe everything they say myself.

I've not been demoralizing your beliefs. Chiefly, I was explaining to Punqsux why what he said was offensive to mine. I've never gone ranting on about "atheist fanboys"...
You say you are respectful, but your tone and wording disagree.

Please, Jsweeney... this is what I'm talking about. I'm sure even you can admit that when punq says "xmas" in abbreviation for christmas, he's not using it in malicious intent to get jibes at Christians nearby.

At the begining, he unintentionally was. After a couple of pages of debate and discussion, he realized that he unintentionally was, and he appologized. I found that accpetable, and considered the issue closed, until other people decided they wanted to be the third man in on the argument. I


It's just a common phrase and, if you think it offensive, that's your decision but generally it's not known to be a vulgar obscenity, so stop acting like he's corrupting the word christmas.

If it weren't generally seen as offensive, bartleby wouldn't make it a point to add that fact into it's usage notes. I guess just because a belief isn't held by a majority it's invalid?


A — He also said that PERSONALLY he makes a decision to "take the 'Christ'" out of Christmas BUT he doesn't disrespect other's beliefs by expecting them to do the same.

1-According to your statement, this belief is valid.
2-If this belief is valid, all beliefs of the same structure should be valid.
3-Thus, if I personally made the decision to call all African Americans the well known slur typically uttered against them, but didn't expect others to do the same, it would be ok and completely unoffensive, right?

As point three is obviously absurd, the original statement cannot be logically true. I guess already saying it was intentionally absurd wasn't enough... I have to write out the proof.

I'm not quite understanding you here, JS. He has the right to do what he likes in the world, this is why the country is free, we have our independence and choices to believe in what we want if anything at all.


The fact that he can personally doesn't do it and doesn't expect others to doesn't free him from being offensive. He stated that if he was being offensive, it was unintentional, and thus it is a moot point now.

By taking the christ out of christmas he most likely means not LITERALLY, but like me, he doesn't particularly emphasize that part of the holiday. He also said that he respects other peoples decisions TO emphasize that part of the holiday. Immoralizing holidays themselves is an entirely different subject, look at Easter. Parents have weaved magical fairy tales for their sons and daughters that a giant bunny hops from door to door delivering chocolate filled eggs.

No actually it isn't. Calling Christmas Xmas is the PINACLE of the secularization of the holdiday. That was my point when I was discussing it with Punqsux. Again, since that issue is already resolved, further discussion on it is moot. If you wish to start a new dialoge on it, that would be something different, but Punqsux and I have come to terms, and I have no further desire to plumb the depths of his psyche.


What exactly was the original purpose of that holiday, hmm? The point is, not every american chooses to celebrate holidays like they should, and it's his right to express his beliefs or non-beliefs how he likes. It is NOT meant to be inflammatory to Christians by not emphasizing Christ in christmas. It may be focused primarily on Jesus for everyone else, but not for atheists or non-believers in God/Christ/etc.

Again, discussion on this is moot, as that issue is already resolved. Look to Loot2Core's issues with Punqsux or Sblymnl if you want to dredge something up. I'm done discussing any issues from this thread discussing or analyzing Punqsux... we've come to terms.

Yet, it's ok to continuously berate mine, eh?
Yep, "Christian fanboys" sounds like something someone respectful of one's beliefs would say.

Like I said, I used that term loosely. If this is going to be like punq and I have to constantly reiterate myself and my opinions I don't want a part of this. A constructive conversation and better understanding, sure, but not that.

So, would it not be offensive if I loosely used the term "pompous twit?"
You don't want to be part of this, yet you keep getting involved.
Your actions betray you, deadzone.

And specifically I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to another certain individual on the board who likes to misquote punq, replace words that he said for something entirely different in meaning and jump to conclusions.

If you're going to throw pointed allegations around, make sure you aim correctly... they have a tendency to stick, and wildly tossed ones will spark off arguments you don't want to have.

It's easy to agree with those who agree with you. Punqsux and I reached an understanding, and we began at complete opposite points. This is not trival. Your agreement with Sblymnl is. That would be like saying I agreed with BigNick or Loot2Core. Anyone who has the ability to read the passages can figure that out for themselves.
This thread actually HAD a useful conclusion, because Punqsux and I came to a loosely defined set of terms and agreement.

OK, but that still doesn't change the fact I agree with him.

And it shouldn't. But it doesn't change the fact that that goes without saying, is a trivial statement, and does nothing to further any argument.
From a utilitarian point of view, they are wasted words.

He is just a part of this thread as you are so don't dismiss my sentence that easily.
Yes I can. Agreeing with him does nothing to prove any point.
It's a trivial statement.

You can say you agree with Bignick or lootr2core all you like.
I don't need to. From the text of the argument, that is blatantly obvious.

And lootr2 wasn't quite finished in flaming punq or so I believed, so no, it did not come to a peaceful and happy resolution.
Then you should have attacked loot2cores postings and not mine.
My posts became non-issues as soon as an agreement was reached.

I read the thread and decided to put my input into it.

[CaptainObviousXl]

this thread realy exploded over night :hot:

[x0thedeadzone0x]

o_O

I didn't attack your postings at all. I didn't even target you at all, you decided to take the initiative and bold my posts in the beginning, so I countered to your responses. I was not referring to you at all, so don't assume things. Because you misinterpret them doesn't mean it's true.

It was my first post in the thread and I thought sblymnl made a good point, so I said that I had agreed with him. What is so horrible about that? You're making a big deal out of nothing.

You are being the epitome of a hypocrite, because this entire time you've considered xmas as an immoral and offensive term, yet you said just now that it's a moot point and you have come to an agreement with punq about it. Then why make such a big deal about it? And why say something like it is the "pinnacle of secularization"? That's your opinion, JS, and obviously you have a right to it but it doesn't make it a fact.
And also I said I didn't want to get involved if this would be a never-ending flame war, one where you would constantly bold my opinions and express the exact same things, for example: Xmas is a horrible derogatory term, bartleby says it so himself, and then a few sentences later say that you have no problem with the term or how he uses it. Why bother?

I never said you were demoralizing my beliefs, I just said if you were to. It was an example, don't take things so literally. I was not referring to you when I said christian fanboys, how many times do I need to say this? Christ, it was meant to be more of a joke then a serious statement, yet you take things so literally so I guess this will be moot as well.

Bartleby is not the focus of the world, because a website decides that a term like that is offensive to christians doesn't mean it's a fact. The thing is, it ISN'T a widespread "insult" like the term n*gger is to a black. More people think of it as an abbreviation of christmas then a derogatory term for it. But like you said you came to an agreement with punq about it so I guess that the word has no merit to you anymore, right?

Why all the hostility, JS? It seems you are sounding almost malicious in coming off in your posts, and half the things I say you take either too literally or too seriously.

And I didn't attack your postings at all, you decided to take this upon yourself by quoting and attacking me.

[Moxio]

this thread realy exploded over night :hot:

Whenever discussing religion, it's bound to happen eventually.

[peteloaf]

Um... Happy Holidays all?

[JSweeney]

I didn't attack your postings at all. I didn't even target you at all, you decided to take the initiative and bold my posts in the beginning, so I countered to your responses. I was not referring to you at all, so don't assume things. Because you misinterpret them doesn't mean it's true.
It was my first post in the thread and I thought sblymnl made a good point, so I said that I had agreed with him. What is so horrible about that? You're making a big deal out of nothing.


Try rereading your first post in the thread.. you're specifically attacking some of my posts. Just because you don't normally organize your attacks in the method i do doesn't mean they didn't happen.
As your primia facia case fails, the rest of your argument fails.




You are being the epitome of a hypocrite, because this entire time you've considered xmas as an immoral and offensive term, yet you said just now that it's a moot point and you have come to an agreement with punq about it.

For the scope of this argument it is.
As this thread began with that issue and a resolution has been had, I consider futher discussion of that section of the thread moot.


Then why make such a big deal about it? And why say something like it is the "pinnacle of secularization"? That's your opinion, JS, and obviously you have a right to it but it doesn't make it a fact.

Never said it did.


And also I said I didn't want to get involved if this would be a never-ending flame war, one where you would constantly bold my opinions and express the exact same things, for example: Xmas is a horrible derogatory term, barkley says it so himself, and then a few sentences later say that you have no problem with the term or how he uses it. Why bother?

I have a feeling you've never studied more formalized argumentation.
This is a silly little message board. Precious little said here will have any great effect on how anyone lives thier life. Thus, it really isn't a great forum for having deep philosophical discourses. Given that framework, it's only worthwhile for the discussion of simple propostions, and as soon as a resolution has reached, unless someone restates a proposition, anything following after degrades into white noise or useless flames.



I never said you were demoralizing my beliefs, I just said if you were to. It was an example, don't take things so literally. I was not referring to you when I said christian fanboys, how many times do I need to say this? Christ, it was meant to be more of a joke then a serious statement, yet you take things so literally so I guess this will be moot as well.

Bartley is not the focus of the world, because a website decides that a term like that is offensive to christians doesn't mean it's a fact. The thing is, it ISN'T a widespread "insult" like the term n*gger is to a black. More people think of it as an abbreviation of christmas then a derogatory term for it. But like you said you came to an agreement with punq about it so I guess that the word has no merit to you anymore, right?

I've explained that that was an exercise in reductio ad absurdum. Of course that point was ridiculous. It was intented to be. It's used to show the logical flaw in the orginal statement.


Why all the hostility, JS? It seems you are sounding almost malicious in coming off in your posts, and half the things I say you take either too literally or too seriously.

Thus is the peril of a discussion on in text. As you aren't framing them in the manner you intend them, they come off as completely different. I answer to that which you posted... not that which you intended to post.


And I didn't attack your postings at all, you decided to take this upon yourself by quoting and attacking me.

Reread your first post deadzone. You're wrong.

[JSweeney]

Um... Happy Holidays all?

Of course :)

Happy Holidays.
Joyeux Noel,
Feliz Navidad,
Happy Channukah,
Joyous Kwanza.

May all of your holidays, regardless of race, religion, or lack thereof be joyous and merry.

:D

[jmcc]

Of course, everyone is just making Jesus angrier and angrier by celebrating his birthday on the wrong day and, indeed, month. If only the church hadn't been so gung-ho about co-opting pagan holidays...

[x0thedeadzone0x]

OK, wow, someone's taking this a bit too harshly. I know my first post perfectly well, and I didn't attack you at all. I'm sorry if you can't see that, but for now, I'm out. I don't want someone pinning blame on me for something I DID NOT DO and attempt to make me feel bad.

Reread your first post deadzone. You're wrong.
You're starting to sound extremely immature, JS. After all, if this is just a silly little message board, you shouldn't take things too literally or seriously, am I correct?

In nearly everything I said, I was referring to Lootr2 and his responses to punq. I could tell that punq was starting to feel a bit desperate, because he reiterated his points in so many different ways that it just wasn't getting through.

In no way were you a part of that. I don't like to target you, because you make a point to bold posts of which you don't like and strip them down, then proceed to barrage them with a lot of fancy words and attack them. Nothing against you, I enjoy most of your posts, but on occasion you can cling on for just a little too long.

So, since you're starting to say slanderous remarks about me, I now wave goodbye, and have a merry holiday, whether you're christian, jewish, buddhist, or atheist.

[JSweeney]

Of course, everyone is just making Jesus angrier and angrier by celebrating his birthday on the wrong day and, indeed, month. If only the church hadn't been so gung-ho about co-opting pagan holidays...

Yep. Darn extant sun gods.

[JSweeney]

OK, wow, someone's taking this a bit too harshly. I know my first post perfectly well, and I didn't attack you at all. I'm sorry if you can't see that, but for now, I'm out. I don't want someone pinning blame on me for something I DID NOT DO and attempt to make me feel bad.

Now you're amending what you said midstream, deadzone. First you said you didn't attack me or my posts... you've pared it back considerably now, and acting as if you hadn't.

You're starting to sound extremely immature, JS. After all, if this is just a silly little message board, you shouldn't take things too literally or seriously, am I correct?
Perils of a text based medium deadzone, especially when people don't clarify what they mean until after the fact.

In nearly everything I said, I was referring to Lootr2 and his responses to punq. I could tell that punq was starting to feel a bit desperate, because he reiterated his points in so many different ways that it just wasn't getting through.

Then your posts lacked clarity and were overreaching, as you started attacking others posts and such (mine included) in your postings.

In no way were you a part of that. I don't like to target you, because you make a point to bold posts of which you don't like and strip them down, then proceed to barrage them with a lot of fancy words and attack them. Nothing against you, I enjoy most of your posts, but on occasion you can cling on for just a little too long.

Tenacity is a virtue. It's also a well know tactic in aguments to wear down someone to a point where they lack either the support or the conviction to continue.

So, since you're starting to say slanderous remarks about me, I now wave goodbye, and have a merry holiday, whether you're christian, jewish, buddhist, or atheist.

Had to get in a parting shot, eh?
Oh well :)

[jmcc]

What holidays do atheists have, anyway?

[punqsux]

wow...i could swear sweeney and i put this topic to rest last ngiht...anyways id like to thank dz for backing up my position a bit

as for lootr's aplology, it was a start...a pitiful one. you can apologize for the name calling you did, but not for the personal attacks on my grammar, nor putting words in my mouth after i declared the issues with you to be moot?

what a half assed fucking apology. ive been using a bit of self restraint in this thread, because i didnt want to offend anyone else in this thread but you, and im sure if i had gone all out, most would be offended. to put an end to the matter.

i again say fuck you, that youre a very poor excuse for a person, and you have to worry about more than apologizing to me to correct this problem.

[Lootr2Core]

What holidays do atheists have, anyway?

festivus.

[Lootr2Core]

wow...i could swear sweeney and i put this topic to rest last ngiht...anyways id like to thank dz for backing up my position a bit

as for lootr's aplology, it was a start...a pitiful one. you can apologize for the name calling you did, but not for the personal attacks on my grammar, nor putting words in my mouth after i declared the issues with you to be moot?

what a half assed shaq-fuing apology. ive been using a bit of self restraint in this thread, because i didnt want to offend anyone else in this thread but you, and im sure if i had gone all out, most would be offended. to put an end to the matter.

i again say shaq-fu you, that youre a very poor excuse for a person, and you have to worry about more than apologizing to me to correct this problem.


Well, I won't hold that against you, all I can say again is sorry. Sorry for the tone of the discussion and sorry for some of the words, but I don't think I need to apogize for my views, nor do you need to scale back your opinions. I never through the thread 'judged'' you or said anything like.. cause you don't believe your going to hell, or just die or whatever. So you're an atheist... I don't like that but I'm not gonna hunt you down and shove a bible in your mouth, but I will argue against your point of view (as you were arguing against what I believe, and that is what I took your first posts as. Not that you were saying Christianity is stupid, but that you feel the religious thought shouldn't be marked as national holidays (nor celebrated secularly)

If you want to go off on me, please do so, I'd rather hear what you think than not.


p.s. I'm so glad to hear you have me all figured out as a person through 5 minutes of arguement.

[camoor]

Damnation.

If it's one thing I hate to miss, it's a discussion where I could have piled on with the kids pointing out how the Xians have just taken a Pagan holiday and moved around some dates in an attempt to make it their own (much like the Jews overemphasize a war victory against the Greeks around this time)

Mistletoe, Evergreen trees, celebration at the time of the Winter Solstice, it's all a celebration of everlasting life in the midst of death, and it's all Pagan.

[Inmate #10943]

Damnation.

If it's one thing I hate to miss, it's a discussion where I could have piled on with the kids pointing out how the Xians have just taken a Pagan holiday and moved around some dates in an attempt to make it their own (much like the Jews overemphasize a war victory against the Greeks around this time)

Mistletoe, Evergreen trees, celebration at the time of the Winter Solstice, it's all a celebration of everlasting life in the midst of death, and it's all Pagan.

BTW - Not all Christians celebrate Christmas on Dec. 25. There is a fairly large number of Christians, specifically Eastern Orthodox Christians who celebrate Christmas on January 7.

[camoor]

Damnation.

If it's one thing I hate to miss, it's a discussion where I could have piled on with the kids pointing out how the Xians have just taken a Pagan holiday and moved around some dates in an attempt to make it their own (much like the Jews overemphasize a war victory against the Greeks around this time)

Mistletoe, Evergreen trees, celebration at the time of the Winter Solstice, it's all a celebration of everlasting life in the midst of death, and it's all Pagan.

BTW - Not all Christians celebrate Christmas on Dec. 25. There is a fairly large number of Christians, specifically Eastern Orthodox Christians who celebrate Christmas on January 7.

Yes, that would be closer to the time that was mapped out in the stars by the three magi, right?

BTW, how do fundamentalists feel about astrology and magic, considering that their central religious figure was first discovered by three magicians who were following the signs of the heavens?

[Inmate #10943]

Yes, that would be closer to the time that was mapped out in the stars by the three magi, right?

BTW, how do fundamentalists feel about astrology and magic, considering that their central religious figure was first discovered by three magicians who were following the signs of the heavens?

Well I'm a Christian but not a fundamentalist.
But - I do have some doubts about when the Three Kings actually showed up to see Jesus. It was possibly much later after the Nativity.

The star that led them to Jesus was by Divine Intervention not astrology.
But if you're a non-believer then I guess it's astrology. And as far as the 3 Kings a.k.a. 3 Magi being MAGIcians...well I don't think so.

[JSweeney]

Damnation.

If it's one thing I hate to miss, it's a discussion where I could have piled on with the kids pointing out how the Xians have just taken a Pagan holiday and moved around some dates in an attempt to make it their own (much like the Jews overemphasize a war victory against the Greeks around this time)

Mistletoe, Evergreen trees, celebration at the time of the Winter Solstice, it's all a celebration of everlasting life in the midst of death, and it's all Pagan.

Well, duh.
Most religions/countries will adopt the symbology of the conquered nations so that the change from worshiping the land gods in a polytheistic society to the worship of a diety in a monothesistic society is less abrupt.
I'm not so dense as to suggest that never happened. Just about every conquering nation with it's own relgion has done this, as it helps placate the masses.

You have to remember.. religion is something perfect existing in an imperfect world, leading to most of the ills existing in it...
imperfect clergy, tyrants using the church as a cover for thier own desires for wealth/power, etc.

[camoor]

Yes, that would be closer to the time that was mapped out in the stars by the three magi, right?

BTW, how do fundamentalists feel about astrology and magic, considering that their central religious figure was first discovered by three magicians who were following the signs of the heavens?

Well I'm a Christian but not a fundamentalist.
But - I do have some doubts about when the Three Kings actually showed up to see Jesus. It was possibly much later after the Nativity.

The star that led them to Jesus was by Divine Intervention not astrology.
But if you're a non-believer then I guess it's astrology. And as far as the 3 Kings a.k.a. 3 Magi being MAGIcians...well I don't think so.

Yup, you have 3 wise men making a dangerous pilgrimage in the desert using the stars (or another type of unusual celestial event / supernatural light) to find the next great leader of the next big religion, a leader who will perform many miraculous mystical feats such as walking on water and coming back to life after seemingly dying, doesn't sound like magic at all to me :roll:

What kind of wise men would have taken signs from the heavens so seriously? Surely we couldn't taint the birth of the lord by having Zorastrian pilgrims present. Before the one true god? What blasphemy, they were kings I tell ya :wink:



*cough*Zoroasterians*cough*

[Inmate #10943]

Yup, you have 3 wise men making a dangerous pilgrimage in the desert using the stars (or another type of unusual celestial event / supernatural light) to find the next great leader of the next big religion, a leader who will perform many miraculous mystical feats such as walking on water and coming back to life after seemingly dying, doesn't sound like magic at all to me :roll:

Well, actually it was one star and it was an unusual celestial event with supernatural light. :D

Christ was not nor ever was considered a great leader of the next big religion. Although there is some differences of opinion among Christians on this, I believe the Apostle Paul (a.k.a. Saul) was the great leader who made Christianity what it is today.

As far as the walking on water and other magical "tricks" performed by Jesus, there is no reason why you should believe that any of these "illusions" were miracles. Why should you, in Christianity we have our own "Doubting Thomases "


What kind of wise men would have taken signs from the heavens so seriously? Surely we couldn't taint the birth of the lord by having Zorastrian pilgrims present. Before the one true god? What blasphemy, they were kings I tell ya :wink:

*cough*Zoroasterians*cough*

You got me there about "What kind of wise men would have......" I wasn't there and just don't know.
Don't think there were any Zoroastrians there as that religion was not founded until the 6th century in Persia. :wink:

[jmcc]

Yup, you have 3 wise men making a dangerous pilgrimage in the desert using the stars (or another type of unusual celestial event / supernatural light) to find the next great leader of the next big religion, a leader who will perform many miraculous mystical feats such as walking on water and coming back to life after seemingly dying, doesn't sound like magic at all to me :roll:

Well, actually it was one star and it was an unusual celestial event with supernatural light. :D

Christ was not nor ever was considered a great leader of the next big religion. Although there is some differences of opinion among Christians on this, I believe the Apostle Paul (a.k.a. Saul) was the great leader who made Christianity what it is today.

As far as the walking on water and other magical "tricks" performed by Jesus, there is no reason why you should believe that any of these "illusions" were miracles. Why should you, in Christianity we have our own "Doubting Thomases "


What kind of wise men would have taken signs from the heavens so seriously? Surely we couldn't taint the birth of the lord by having Zorastrian pilgrims present. Before the one true god? What blasphemy, they were kings I tell ya :wink:

*cough*Zoroasterians*cough*

You got me there about "What kind of wise men would have......" I wasn't there and just don't know.
Don't think there were any Zoroastrians there as that religion was not founded until the 6th century in Persia. :wink:

No, Zoroastrianism was around long before Jesus. You must be thinking of something else.

[JSweeney]

Christ was not nor ever was considered a great leader of the next big religion. Although there is some differences of opinion among Christians on this, I believe the Apostle Paul (a.k.a. Saul) was the great leader who made Christianity what it is today.

I'd have thought it was Peter, the "rock" upon which the Church was built, as well as the first Pope.

[camoor]

Yup, you have 3 wise men making a dangerous pilgrimage in the desert using the stars (or another type of unusual celestial event / supernatural light) to find the next great leader of the next big religion, a leader who will perform many miraculous mystical feats such as walking on water and coming back to life after seemingly dying, doesn't sound like magic at all to me :roll:

Well, actually it was one star and it was an unusual celestial event with supernatural light. :D

Christ was not nor ever was considered a great leader of the next big religion. Although there is some differences of opinion among Christians on this, I believe the Apostle Paul (a.k.a. Saul) was the great leader who made Christianity what it is today.

As far as the walking on water and other magical "tricks" performed by Jesus, there is no reason why you should believe that any of these "illusions" were miracles. Why should you, in Christianity we have our own "Doubting Thomases "


What kind of wise men would have taken signs from the heavens so seriously? Surely we couldn't taint the birth of the lord by having Zorastrian pilgrims present. Before the one true god? What blasphemy, they were kings I tell ya :wink:

*cough*Zoroasterians*cough*

You got me there about "What kind of wise men would have......" I wasn't there and just don't know.
Don't think there were any Zoroastrians there as that religion was not founded until the 6th century in Persia. :wink:

No, Zoroastrianism was around long before Jesus. You must be thinking of something else.

That's correct. Most scholars believe that Zoroastrianism grew considerably in the 6th century BC. BC as in "Before Christ". So there were plenty of Zorastrians in Persia at the time of the birth of Christ.

Source (http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Zoroastrim/zoroastrism.htm)

[camoor]

Christ was not nor ever was considered a great leader of the next big religion. Although there is some differences of opinion among Christians on this, I believe the Apostle Paul (a.k.a. Saul) was the great leader who made Christianity what it is today.

I'd have thought it was Peter, the "rock" upon which the Church was built, as well as the first Pope.

Wasn't it really Charlemagne who charted the course for Christianity?

[Inmate #10943]

Christ was not nor ever was considered a great leader of the next big religion. Although there is some differences of opinion among Christians on this, I believe the Apostle Paul (a.k.a. Saul) was the great leader who made Christianity what it is today.

I'd have thought it was Peter, the "rock" upon which the Church was built, as well as the first Pope.

Yeah I've always had problems with that "rock" thing. I kinda think Jesus was speaking figuratively as in, "You an apostle and you as apostles will be the rock upon which I will build my church". I dunno, I was brought up Catholic but still have a problem with that even though Peter was "considered" the first Pope.

The apostles were Jews and Peter wanted to keep the followers of Christ in Judaism and did not want to go off and form a new religion. Sort of like keep it a sect of Judaism.

Saul who never met Jesus in life (and later became Paul) was charged with the duty, by some Rabbis, of seeking out and persecuting Christians. He did a great job too until he had some kind of revelation. He then became a devout follower of Christ and an important missionary.

He met with Peter and insisted they break away from the Jewish faith. Peter fought the idea but in the end Paul won out. And if it wasn't for Paul Christianity today would be a sect in the Jewish faith.

[Inmate #10943]

No, Zoroastrianism was around long before Jesus. You must be thinking of something else.

Hey when you're "Right" you're "Right" :!:
And in this case - You're "Right" and I'm "Wrong" :oops:

Seems I failed to notice the 6th Century "B.C." part.

[camoor]

Damnation.

If it's one thing I hate to miss, it's a discussion where I could have piled on with the kids pointing out how the Xians have just taken a Pagan holiday and moved around some dates in an attempt to make it their own (much like the Jews overemphasize a war victory against the Greeks around this time)

Mistletoe, Evergreen trees, celebration at the time of the Winter Solstice, it's all a celebration of everlasting life in the midst of death, and it's all Pagan.

Well, duh.
Most religions/countries will adopt the symbology of the conquered nations so that the change from worshiping the land gods in a polytheistic society to the worship of a diety in a monothesistic society is less abrupt.
I'm not so dense as to suggest that never happened. Just about every conquering nation with it's own relgion has done this, as it helps placate the masses.

You have to remember.. religion is something perfect existing in an imperfect world, leading to most of the ills existing in it...
imperfect clergy, tyrants using the church as a cover for thier own desires for wealth/power, etc.

Yes, it's a comforting thought that at several times in the past, Christianity was willing to make concessions to a vocal minority. That's what I find particularly odious about this administration, they think that the Christian God's law is perfect and therefore Government law should be the same as the Christian God's law.

On topic however, I think Xmas has become a corporate holiday more then anything else. The message I see the most is "buy! buy! buy!". To be honest, I'd rather see alot more of the "Peace on Earth" angle. That's what it is to me, a chance to feast and celebrate friends/family in the midst of trying times.

[Inmate #10943]

On topic however, I think Xmas has become a corporate holiday more then anything else. The message I see the most is "buy! buy! buy!". To be honest, I'd rather see alot more of the "Peace on Earth" angle. That's what it is to me, a chance to feast and celebrate friends/family in the midst of trying times.

Holy smokes LORD, we may have a conversion here :wink:
I agree 100% with the above. That's exactly what bums me out at Christmas. it's all about corporate profits.

And I'll bet you between now and Christmas more people will give and be the recipient of the "Finger" than at any time during the year.

I second the "Peace on Earth" angle and the friends and family thing.
Phew! I hate to break it to you, but you have the true Christmas spirit.
Ooops! I mean the true Xmas spirit.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/Verewolf/Avatars%20-%202/beerchug.gif

[JSweeney]

Yes, it's a comforting thought that at several times in the past, Christianity was willing to make concessions to a vocal minority.
That's what I find particularly odious about this administration, they think that the Christian God's law is perfect and therefore Government law should be the same as the Christian God's law.

That is disturbing, because even different sects of the Christian Church disagree on many points, hence the break between Prodestant and Catholic.


On topic however, I think Xmas has become a corporate holiday more then anything else.

Xmas, yes.
That's why I don't like people trying to refer to the Christian festival of Christmas as Xmas. But, that point had been discussed to death earlier in the thread.


The message I see the most is "buy! buy! buy!". To be honest, I'd rather see alot more of the "Peace on Earth" angle. That's what it is to me, a chance to feast and celebrate friends/family in the midst of trying times.

Well, when you remove the religious basis from a religous holiday, it's kind of hard to keep it being corrupted by the most influental or powerful (it this case, corporations.)

[camoor]

Xmas, yes.
That's why I don't like people trying to refer to the Christian festival of Christmas as Xmas. But, that point had been discussed to death earlier in the thread.

I see your point, but I was trying to say there's a figurative celebration occurring at the same time as Christ's Birthday Anniversary, and it is a feast that's dedicated to enduring life at the time of the winter solstice. We're just glad that we are alive, we still have our life and our family, and that Spring is only a month and a half away. I really think people pick up on this, making this time of the year which would otherwise be depressing (less daylight, lower produce quality, getting colder) much more bearable, enjoyable even.

This meaning of Xmas has been hijacked by the corporations.

Not that the corporations have won. Every time a rotten materialistic movie like "Jingle all the Way" or "Kristmas with the Kranks" bombs, an angel (faerie/nymph/kami) gets it's wings :wink:

[camoor]

This guy is pretty entertaining, who knew Xmas was so decadent... :wink:

The Real Deal (http://www.rawstory.com/exclusives/xero/christmas_shroom_santa_claus_1122.htm)