CAGcast #270: Man Down

[CheapyD]

15060[/IMG-L]Wombat hatches Kickstarter schemes, Shipwreck looks to take home the gold, and CheapyD doesn't have to sniff underwear. Also, Kingdoms of Amalur talk and discussion on the worst job in the gaming industry.

Get your questions or topics answered on future shows via CAGbag (http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71382) or Twitter (http://www.twitter.com/cheapyd).


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Intro/Outro: atom - plus 1 - Mulatto Butts (Archer)

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[Bezerker]

Best way to start a Friday when you sit in a cubicle for 8 hours

[BradGrenz]

Dude, Wombat, you've got to think about the timing of this Double Fine Kickstarter project. It launched while Tim Schaefer was attending DICE. It's pretty clear this was intended to be some kind of experiment/proof of concept. It doesn't really have anything to do with whether they could have independently funded the project themselves. It was about discovering how viable crowd-sourcing could be as a potential avenue to obtain funding for themselves, and other developers of a similar size and pedigree.

Maybe next time they won't have to sign an exclusivity deal with Microsoft to get something like Trenched made, or need a wealthy fan to make PC ports of games like Stacking and Costume Quest.

With fans basically acting like venture capital, big questions remain about whether "contributors" ought to in fact be considered investors with the right to share in potential profits, but this particular project has clearly gone far past everyone's expectations. Over time Kickstarter will probably have to evolve into something like Kiva with funding caps and returns on investment, but this is a really fascinating first step down this road.

[Hobotalk]

Hey wombat,

In regards to Double Fine's Kickstarter; I would say they have a lot of incentive to produce a good game. The immediate financial risk may not be there but there would be a monumental backlash from fans who contributed money to this project if they did spend $100K making a shit game.

I would also consider that the reason this is working for Double Fine is because they have a reputation (to their fans) of making good games and people trust them to make this point and click adventure game. If they mess up it could very well cause the demise of Double Fine, loss of jobs and certainly loss of any trust or enthusiasm people hold for the company. I'm sure Tim Schafer would pull through but things would definitely take a turn for the worse.

Just my thoughts. I think it's pretty good that they're doing this as my current understanding of the industry is that publishers may have too much influence on certain parts of game production.

[LiK]

Man, I would love to see Shippy coaching in action.

About Kickstarter, I think it was a combination of experimentation and also seeing the interest in the game as well. We have to remember that they're doing this for a point-and-click adventure game which isn't hugely profitable these days. And asking fans to back them, allows them a lot more freedom without pressure from the publishers. I understand Wombat's point but maybe he was too critical about it. I don't think Double Fine knew they would get such a huge amount of money for it. Their original goal was $400k after all.

I think other companies have done something similar. For example, Telltale allows people to preorder their adventure games on their site when they're not even made or completed. Remember that they allow you to preorder full seasons like their Monkey Island and BTTF games and you'll get bonuses like DVD versions and special packaging. It's not all that different than the bonuses offered from people on Kickstarter.

Btw, I think Cheapy should check out KoA: Reckoning. While I agree that the game isn't quite as charming or funny as characters in Fable or Skyrim, I really enjoy the combat and some sidestories. It's a pretty game too. I love the look of it. Oh yea Shippy, the game allows you to experiment with different powers and weapons so if you find the combat a grind, switch up the weapons, they're a lot of fun. I've been messing around with various skills and they really mix them up quite well.

[Porksta]

Here is a good site for XBL whiners:

http://whywasibanned.com/

[Lightning War]

What exactly do you mean by categorizing the Internet celebrities? Almost everyone I saw on the thread did. Not giving the DLC away when you said you were is kind of a dick move.

Also, sorry the show thread didn't please you Wombat. I don't know what you expect in a feedback thread where you're giving shit away. Of course people are going to hear that and just bullshit it to try to get free stuff. Posting a new thread for a giveaway is probably your best bet.

On a slightly leas negative note I do indeed want to see a montage of Shipwreck coaching, ideally narrated by you three.

Finally, fuck yes to Tiny Wings Wombat. I love that shit.

[mkernan]

To Wombat's views on the Double Fine Kickstarter project:

I think the key thing to keep in mind is that this shows that crowd-funding a game is entirely possible. If you look out across the landscape of gaming today, you have a handful of well-funded AAA titles and a bustling indie scene, but "the middle" is becoming increasingly sparse. The risks of making games is all too clear, with reports of studio closures and publisher woes becoming more and more common. Granted, Double Fine is an established studio with a well-known studio head, but the most intriguing element of this experiment is that it shows that games can be made without publisher involvement. Seems like a pretty promising proof of concept to me.

Another thing Wombat should keep in mind is that the entire studio most likely won't be working on this single crowd-funded adventure game. The past year or two has made it pretty obvious that Double Fine's staff breaks into smaller teams and works on multiple titles concurrently.

[pete_brasler]

Just picked up Kingdoms of Amalur today - before listening to the podcast. Dammit - I'm still looking forward to it!

[Sgt Barone]

Just downloaded!

[shipwreck]

Just picked up Kingdoms of Amalur today - before listening to the podcast. Dammit - I'm still looking forward to it!

It's a good game, it just needs a little extra to make it great.

[Curufinwe]

It's a good game, it just needs a little extra to make it great.

If it just had awful combat and tons of bugs it could be as good as Skyrim. :)

[dreamparacite]

Wombat, the game double fine was trying to make is a classic adventure game so of course its going to be risky. That alone is great justification to kickstart the project so those who are interested can fund the niche game they want. I thinly Wombat may be a tad jealous :\

[Thomas96]

Great a new show! HAND DOWN! MAN DOWN!

[GamerInterface]

Great show, great show. I get Wombat's point on DF, but I think the response is that going to Kickstarter has advantages *besides• the fundraising. It's almost like having a focus group that pays you to respond to pre-release gameplay descriptions.

And Cheapy, be a mensch and go help your boy clean up after a mess. I think Wombat and Shipwreck can hold their own for a few minutes while you go help him out.

[polly]

/pause cagcast

Wow, only Wombat would bitch about something as awesome as the Double Fine kickstarter news. Wombat, why do you think dev studios even go to publishers in the first place? Because they need funding. That was seriously like 10 minutes of Wombat ranting out of his ass. I feel dumber now for listening. An iconic dev literally making a game for the fans and you still have to find something to complain about. You small bitter cynical man.

/resume cagcast

[Porksta]

/pause cagcast

Wow, only Wombat would bitch about something as awesome as the Double Fine kickstarter news. Wombat, why do you think dev studios even go to publishers in the first place? Because they need funding. That was seriously like 10 minutes of Wombat ranting out of his ass. I feel dumber now for listening. An iconic dev literally making a game for the fans and you still have to find something to complain about. You small bitter cynical man.

/resume cagcast

He raised some good points. Wombat I mean.

I think Double Fine and maybe Valve would be the only companies that could pull this off. Could you imagine Activision doing this for MW4?

[HungryButcher]

I agree with most everything Wombat said about Double Fine. I do think it's a good way to raise money, but it does feel a tad desperate. That's just my opinion. :)

[Fuzi0n]

All the Wombat hate tells me this is going to be a good episode (they always are), can't wait to listen.

[meager]

My main problem with Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning is that it plays like a fanfic. It takes a bunch of pieces from other RPGs and doesn't really build anything on top of it. In fact, they were so insistant on mimicing their favorite games that they didn't bother to try and evolve with the genre like those other franchises have. For example, they still use the antiquated item repair that Elder Scrolls has dropped; and interacting with people is not dynamic, you have to wait for them to stand up before they start talking. It just makes the game feel dated.

And Ship, why didn't you talk about what you did for your birthday? Now I have to make something up for the Boatcrash Chronicles, and who knows how that will turn out...

[testudo]

Honestly this was one of the worst episodes ever, wombat actually did a valiant job to try to resuscitate it... and you didn't even answer my cagbag question!?!?

yeah the double fine thing is totally marketing. People do kickstarter to spread the word about their product/event, not because they need the money.

[polly]

He raised some good points. Wombat I mean.


He made, literally, no good points.

Shipwreck: "I think it's pretty clear Wombat doesn't know what he's talking about."

Truth.

[basston3s]

ok. I don't really have issues with Wombat's comments on Kickstarter. I do have issues with him claiming he has a story on Tim Schaefer and then saying "oh but I can't say it here." You went so far as to say he is a douche, might as well take the plunge in the name of entertainment. Besides, it's not like he would hunt you down to kick your ass. I'm sure he has had many a tale told on his douche baggery.

[Wombat]

ok. I don't really have issues with Wombat's comments on Kickstarter. I do have issues with him claiming he has a story on Tim Schaefer and then saying "oh but I can't say it here." You went so far as to say he is a douche, might as well take the plunge in the name of entertainment. Besides, it's not like he would hunt you down to kick your ass. I'm sure he has had many a tale told on his douche baggery.

I would love to tell the story, but honestly it is not my place to tell and it would hurt others that I do care about. But yes, I should not have brought it up.

[guardian_owl]

To some extent I agree with Wombat, kickstarter should be used by people who legitimately have few if any options to raise funding for their project(s). A large % of the cash raised is likely from Double Fine fans who specifically went onto kickstarter to fund the project, but I am sure some portion of the cash is money from regular kickstarter visitors which was not spent on one of the other projects whose sole option for funding is kickstarter.

The extreme metaphor would be a person who makes a decent living, but periodically dresses up in ratty clothes and goes down to the soup kitchen for a free meal. Leave the free meal to those who need it.

[Curufinwe]

Tim Schaefer sold poison milk to schoolchildren.

yeah the double fine thing is totally marketing. People do kickstarter to spread the word about their product/event, not because they need the money.

Some people may do it for publicity, but other people really do need the money. The Double Fine kickstarter is for one particular game that they probably wouldn't have made without getting funded by fans because point and click adventures aren't popular with publishers anymore. It's not the only game the studio is going to be working on in 2012.

[miqspot]

Wow, I've been an avid listener since about episode 50 or so. I've been on this wagon for quite a long time and never have I found Wombat to be so angry, confused, mislead, wrong, etc.....

First of all if you are going to play devils advocate then please don't immediately follow that up with an "I feel" statement. Clearly if you feel that the whole Doublefine Kickstarter project is crap that's not really playing devils advocate. When playing devils advocate you should really be pointing out legitimate issues, not feelings. Good God!

Oh wait, if I didn't already feel dumber for having to listen to Wombats viewpoint on the Doublefine Kickstarter project I then get to hear him talk about the super exciting world of inventory management in Kingdoms of Amular. Let me say that again, INVENTORY MANAGEMENT. Really?

Holy shit Wombat, I love you and I'm going to chalk this one up to you not feeling well so please, for the sake of the Cagcast, please get well soon.

[jbug617]

Double Fine's smaller games seem to me they have a little Brutal Legend in them.

[billyok]

Sour grapes city, Wombat. Good lord.

[Hobotalk]

Double Fine's smaller games seem to me they have a little Brutal Legend in them.

I'm pretty sure all of their smaller XBLA releases were built using the Brutal Legend Engine.

[4thHorseman]

If it just had awful combat and tons of bugs it could be as good as Skyrim. :)

Lol. Every complaint about KOA:R that Ship made about the game could be slung at Skyrim too.

- Quests where you "go here, get this, bring it back". Then having a lot of them that don't link.
- Combat that gets old and just trying to get to the next quest point.
- Bad storytelling
- Grabbing items for quests but they don't tell you what for.

Every. Single. Complaint.

[casamh]

Does the Kingdoms of Amalur have a fake blood on your ankle power up?

[apathylad]

Someone could make another issue of Bullsh** Quarterly with all the comments Wombat made. I'm usually not bothered by Wombat, but to claim he's playing Devil's Advocate and then say, "I hear Tim Schafer is a douche"? Even CheapyD and Shipwreck seemed put off by the comment.

[shipwreck]

Lol. Every complaint about KOA:R that Ship made about the game could be slung at Skyrim too.

- Quests where you "go here, get this, bring it back". Then having a lot of them that don't link.
- Combat that gets old and just trying to get to the next quest point.
- Bad storytelling
- Grabbing items for quests but they don't tell you what for.

Every. Single. Complaint.

Skyrim's storytelling is leaps and bounds above Amalur's. And one of the main reasons that Skyrim's quest structure is so much more interesting to me is that Skyrim is an incredible world to explore. Amalur is a flat overworld with predetermined pathways that never give me any sense of discovery. Combat in Skyrim also progresses much nicer as you become stronger and better at the various attack methods and strategy can come into play more. Enemies in Skyrim are more varied and level with your character. This isn't really the case in Amalur as enemy levels are dictated by the region you are in and the enemies' abilities aren't as seemingly random as they are in Skyrim. I could write a thesis on every way that Skyrim is the superior game, but Skyrim is probably my favorite game of all time. Amalur is okay, but it's not as good as all the games it was cobbled together from: World of Warcraft, Fable II, Torchlight, and Skyrim.

[markingsmart]

I know Wombat was playing devil's advocate to some degree in regards to the Double Fine/Kickstarter situation, but Shipwreck and Cheapy's slowly growing contempt for Wombat since the "Great E3 debacle" really showed itself with Shipwreck's comment; "I think it's pretty clear that you don't know what you're talking about here, but keep going."

http://i39.tinypic.com/2qk78s4.jpg

PS: Love the show!!!

[CheapyD]

And Cheapy, be a mensch and go help your boy clean up after a mess. I think Wombat and Shipwreck can hold their own for a few minutes while you go help him out.
there wasn't any mess. It was just a little pee pee in his underwear, not a full piss load.

[lokizz]

the end is near because wombat actually made sense. all he was saying is because that company raised the money for their game the way they did these no risk involved all they have to do is complete it and thats it.

who really knows how much it costs to make a game and more than that from here in they could change their mind on what type or size of game they want to make and do the bare minimum to satisfy their end of the deal ( giving those who paid 15 bucks a free copy of the game) and walk away with whats left and any money they make on sales is a cherry on top.

[billyok]

So even though running around shooting people in confined maps in Call of Battlefield is the most popular thing going in gaming right now, doing the same thing in a car, a la Twisted Metal, is somehow 10 years obsolete and out of touch with gamers today.

Makes sense to me!

[AsteriskCGY]

Well between the Kickstarter announcement and now I've read at least 4 different articles articulating this position, the biggest one being "developers don't make money off sales." As popular as Double Fine's games could be, all their money is made from the upfront investment by the publisher, who then recoup that investment through sales. And depending on the contract only after that does the developer make money from each sale.

The big issue I take is that people do not need a financial incentive to do nice things. They need a financial incentive to do something so as to not starve, but how good it is does not directly scale with value invested. Yes there are some things that more money can bring, but that is only magnified by the talent, it does not attribute to it.

/unpause podcast

[GOTA]

Good luck with the big game Shipwreck. Coaching kids is one those great things that everyone should try at least once.

[snakemaster2389]

I dont really care about the whole Kickstarter thing because Double Fine is just making a point and click game. I don't like those kinda of games but if the game they were making instead of a point and click, like a cool action platformer but made for the xbla i would probably put in $15. As for Twisted Metal goes, its probably not gonna sell well, hell even Resistance 3 didn't sell good but that game was the best of the Resistance series. Twisted Metal maybe should be $40 or $50 instead of $60 but this game is made for the fans and its not gonna turn you into a fan if you never liked the franchise, but I am going to support Jaffe and I think he is brilliant and unique and I hope he continues to make games.

Love the show and I listen every week.

[Just-Joe]

So even though running around shooting people in confined maps in Call of Battlefield is the most popular thing going in gaming right now, doing the same thing in a car, a la Twisted Metal, is somehow 10 years obsolete and out of touch with gamers today.

Makes sense to me!

I know right? The thing with the demo is that it didn't feel like a complete representation of Twisted Metal being that one of the main attractions to the games are the characters and the storyline(s) of which the demo doesn't show. It has one map, two modes, and about half of the vehicles the game offers. I actually did enjoy the demo and I've been a fan of the series since 2 so I'm looking forward to this game.

As for the whole Double Fine thing does this make someone like the AVGN a bad person for e-begging people so he can make his movie? Isn't it basically the same?

[metallicoholic]

Wombat, I just got over being sick so I'm going to attribute your Double Fine/Kickstarter rant to not feeling well. Otherwise, they're not taking money out of your pocket and/or ruining the industry so I don't see what the big deal is. I can usually get behind your whole "devil's advocate" role but no one else was really taking a stand on the issue, so I'm not sure which "side" you were really playing to.

I do wholeheartedly agree with all the thoughts on the XBL dashboard. I know the dash update has received a lot of criticism already but filing through the latest DLC releases is a hassle. It's just pages and pages of Rock Band. Every day. Instead of a car commercial, how about a link to Rock Band DLC on the dash? That will at least be valuable to some people. You know it's bad when the PSN store is better organized.

I'm assuming you guys gave out that DLC and just didn't say who won but if not, that really sucks. The last show's comment thread was just chalked full of exactly what you asked for Cheapy.

[Ozonekill]

I know right? The thing with the demo is that it didn't feel like a complete representation of Twisted Metal being that one of the main attractions to the games are the characters and the storyline(s) of which the demo doesn't show. It has one map, two modes, and about half of the vehicles the game offers. I actually did enjoy the demo and I've been a fan of the series since 2 so I'm looking forward to this game

Online is the focus of this Twisted Metal. I don't think CheapyD played online at all because of the matchmaking errors. Wombat calling the game "Calling All Cars 2" is completely stupid and shows he's ignorant to the depth. Seemed like they were talking a lot about a game they didn't know anything about, which tends to happen on this show. Love you guys!

I liked the demo and it only got better the more I played it. The depth of the game will not come across in the early hours of play.

[XXXplosive1]

I agree with Wombat about Double Fine and Kickstarter. This move reeks of desperation from Double Fine.

Psychonauts was the first and best game produced by the studio, Brutal Legend was crap and as a result the studio could not get anymore publishing deals. That essentially turned them into a XBLA/PSN games developer that tend to get good reviews from journalists who cannot seperate the Lucas Arts-era Tim Schafer from the one who is churning out mediocre digital games. Despite the critical handjobs these game get, the gaming public is largely apathetic to their output.

Tim Schafer used the goodwill he earned in the 90's to bait nostalgic gamers who have largely ignored his 00's output to fund his next project. That goes against the spirit of Kickstarter, which is intended for people with no viable way of funding an idea, not established businesses that have pretty much failed over the past ten years and are desperate to remain relevant.

[Toss]

Wombat do you illicit this type of reaction from people in real life?

[Porksta]

When 3DO needed money: Trip Hawkins gave them a loan
When Double Fine needs money: Tim Schafer panhandles

[MSUHitman]

What pissed me off about the TM demo is that I saw Cheapy having all the issues connecting online and David Jaffe talk about them being fixed last week, then when I tried to play it Wednesday it was already locked and you couldn't play it at all.

[K_G]

To some extent I agree with Wombat, kickstarter should be used by people who legitimately have few if any options to raise funding for their project(s). A large % of the cash raised is likely from Double Fine fans who specifically went onto kickstarter to fund the project, but I am sure some portion of the cash is money from regular kickstarter visitors which was not spent on one of the other projects whose sole option for funding is kickstarter.

The extreme metaphor would be a person who makes a decent living, but periodically dresses up in ratty clothes and goes down to the soup kitchen for a free meal. Leave the free meal to those who need it.

No, that would be extremely flawed metaphor. This project raised a tremendous amount of cash in 24 hours, which means it was completely demand driven. It is not like people wake up each morning, turn on their computers and then try to figure what kickstart project they are going to fund today. You might as well say amazon or starbucks or the red cross are also starving other kickstarter projects as well, since people spend money at those places....money that could be spent on kickstarter projects.

It seems like alot of the griping about this sounds like 'oh, double fine isn't indy enough' to be using kickstarter, which just strikes me as petty bullshit. It isn't like EA is doing this to fund Madden kergillion. If anything, this thing probably introduced the kickstarter concept to whole lot more people, which likely means more backers and more projects in the future.

Wombat seemed to focus on the 'easy money' aspect, but the key thing in my mind is less the access to capital but rather the clear indication of demand for the product, which is an ADVENTURE GAME. No publisher is going to touch an adventure game in this day and age (I believe Telltale self-publishes their own works), and given Double Fine's past problems with publishers on Psychonauts and Brutal Legend, it isn't surprising they might want see if there were other options out there. And while they probably could get the capital to finance it via more traditional ways, this route clearly shows they have an audience for the product right out of the gate....it may not be a massive audience (they have about 40K+ backers at the moment) but it is sufficiently motivated audience to put their money into the product ahead of time. At a basic level, this isn't really too far removed from gamestop taking a pre order on something, outside of the fact that it cuts out all the middlemen between the producer and the end consumer and that it didn't cost Double Fine a penny in marketing costs.

[Porksta]

this route clearly shows they have an audience for the product right out of the gate

Yup, 40,000 people want to play it. That is enough of an audience for me to create a game.

You know what else shows that they have an audience? Game sales. How much did Psychonauts sell?

[polly]

I agree with Wombat about Double Fine and Kickstarter. This move reeks of desperation from Double Fine.

I just don't understand how anyone who considers themselves a gamer and wants to actually support the devs could ever take issue with the Double Fine Kickstarter campaign.

Brutal Legend was crap and as a result the studio could not get anymore publishing deals. That essentially turned them into a XBLA/PSN games developer that tend to get good reviews from journalists who cannot seperate the Lucas Arts-era Tim Schafer from the one who is churning out mediocre digital games. Despite the critical handjobs these game get, the gaming public is largely apathetic to their output.

Brutal Legend wasn't crap. It, and pretty much every game they've made so far scores on average a 7.5 to 8.5 out of 10 (critic and user scores.) That is pretty consistent quality, whether or not one or many of their games wasn't your cup of tea.

And if they could not get anymore publishing deals, why the hell not go to Kickstarter?

Tim Schafer used the goodwill he earned in the 90's to bait nostalgic gamers who have largely ignored his 00's output to fund his next project. That goes against the spirit of Kickstarter, which is intended for people with no viable way of funding an idea, not established businesses that have pretty much failed over the past ten years and are desperate to remain relevant.

Sour grapes. The mere fact that, as of right now, some 40,000 fans kicked in $1.5 million for this project says just how much people believe in the studio and Schafer. Double Fine should be applauded for going directly to the fans, and not being beholden to the publishers who fuck things up every chance they get. I guess they should make a Kickstarter+ which would be only for well known names/studios, so people wouldn't give them shit for taking the spotlight away from the little guys.

Judging from his tweets, Wombat is pretty much just trolling to stir up controversy anyways, which is the epitome of douchiness. At least there's a story you CAN talk about on the CAGcast.

[mclovin77]

I think Double Fine does it just the right way. I remember the whole community cry for a rerelease of "Psychonauts" and they brought it to the Marketplace - guess what really did not so well!!!
The thing is people like to cry out loud a lot if they demand something, but thats all they do. The psychonauts example and the CoD:MW 2 -"Boykott" showed this very well
there is always dumbass manager on the publisher side that will talk into the developer to change this and that in the game or come with " and here .... some online pass.... and here: take this part out of the game - it would make a good download episode".
They ensure their freedom in the design of the game. Also they ensure that there is some interest in this game.
I prefer to crowdfund games over being fucked by developers via online-pass and other cheap tricks to suck more money out of gamers (some overpriced and mostly recycled CoD-MapPacks, anyone ... no... maybe an overpriced statistic system that shows how often you farted in the sweet camperspot). Not to mention the people who bought Batman Arkham City but can not play as Catwoman because they have no Internet-Connection to suck the 200 MB File, while it was always advertised as a part of the game.

[Curufinwe]

Yup, 40,000 people want to play it. That is enough of an audience for me to create a game.

You know what else shows that they have an audience? Game sales. How much did Psychonauts sell?

Psychonauts didn't sell well. What does that have to do with Double Fine having fans of point & click adventures games directly fund a new point & click adventure game thru kickstarter?

[Chase]

Here is a good site for XBL whiners:

http://whywasibanned.com/


Hilarious website. I am wowed by the ridiculousness of the offenders. Xbox Live Enforcer seems like a fun job for the first four to six weeks. Definitely not something I'd want to do for any long amount of time.

—

In regards to the Double Fine Kickstarter adventures, it's interesting to see a developer kick the publisher out of the equation. Publishers do still have relevancy, tho. What Double Fine raised is nice for a point-and-click adventure game, but they'll still need real money to produce high-level games and for marketing and production costs.

While production costs will plummet when digital distribution takes over, I think marketing costs would have to increase—especially if companies implement systems into the next generation of consoles that discourage and prohibit friends sharing games with friends. Outside of storing games on discs, what the physical copy does is market and get that game out there in the public. People visit places like Wal-Mart and Target, and browse the video game aisle for their kids, grandkids, nieces and nephews. Remove that section, and game titles, not video games, will lose exposure. A good example: The Imagine series. I imagine many not-quite-so-video-game-savvy parents and grandparents bought those games while just browsing the store.

Times will be interesting when video game consoles evolve to where physical media is dropped in favor of digital distribution or streaming. However, that won't be any time soon. There have been recent news polls that state around 40-percent of people in the U.S. don't have broadband internet. I think technology adoption will improve to where the next-next generation will be ready for digital distribution and streaming-based consoles.

[meager]

I think Double Fine's Kickstarter method might hurt their chances of getting traditionally funded in the future.

They'll be giving out thousands of free codes to download this game, as per the arrangement with their Kickstarter donators. Surely these free code downloads are tracked and counted seperately than paid downloads, right? How do they determine if the code user was an early supporter, or just a guy who won the code in a contest?It wouldn't make sense for industry watchers to count 100,000 downloads of a normally for-pay product as the same as 100,000 downloads of a free CAGcast.

And since 40,000 of their small, but loyal, fanbase will be getting their game for free instead of buying a copy straight up, it's going to look like a sales dip in Double Fine's track record.

Plus, publishers might feel slighted by the fact that DF went this route in the first place, and could very well hold a petty grudge against them in the future.

And any disappointment in the final product this time around will definitely be remembered by supporters during DF's next Kickstarter attempt.

So, unless Double Fine really knocks it out of the park and produces a game that redefines the Point & Click genre, their independent funding success could really hurt them down the road.

[Porksta]

Psychonauts didn't sell well. What does that have to do with Double Fine having fans of point & click adventures games directly fund a new point & click adventure game thru kickstarter?

If you want to show support for a company, you buy their games. Nobody bought Psychonauts, which means not many people support Double Fine.

[K_G]

I think Double Fine's Kickstarter method might hurt their chances of getting traditionally funded in the future.

They'll be giving out thousands of free codes to download this game, as per the arrangement with their Kickstarter donators. Surely these free code downloads are tracked and counted seperately than paid downloads, right? How do they determine if the code user was an early supporter, or just a guy who won the code in a contest?It wouldn't make sense for industry watchers to count 100,000 downloads of a normally for-pay product as the same as 100,000 downloads of a free CAGcast.


XBLA sales numbers are often not disclosed to the public.....Steam sales figures are also often not disclosed to the public . This isn't anything new in digital distribution. If the game is successful, it will show in the double fine's balance sheets, which future funding sources will be far more concerned with than what the public thinks their sales numbers were.

If you want to show support for a company, you buy their games. Nobody bought Psychonauts, which means not many people support Double Fine.

If the Wikipedia page it to be believed, in physical retail copies (ie, non-digtial), Psychonauts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychonauts) sold 400K by 2007. That is quite a lot of "nobody". Now was that enough to cover their production costs? Almost assuredly no. But I guess they are the odd man out in the industry, given that absolutely no one else lost money on a game. I mean, come on, everyone bought Shenmue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenmue) back in the day, didn't they?

But I get it.. In your view, if you can't sell out stadiums, don't even bother to try. Jonathan Coulton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Coulton) should just hang it up already. I mean, $500K a year is just chump change. If you can't beat Transformers at the box office, you shouldn't be even in the film business at all.

And why do you even care in the first place? If you like Double Fine's style of kool aid, and want to buy some more, people can now do that....if you don't, don't buy it and move on....no one is trying to pour it down your throat.

[S0LIDARITY]

I know Cheapy and Wombat wanted more people to talk about the A/B/C/D rating of Internet celebrities. The problem is that fans and casual observers do not define these lists. There are actual lists put out by Hollywood talent agencies that categorize celebrities based on their marketability.

An A list celebrity is someone who is attractive, experienced, well-known, easy to publicize, eloquent, great during interviews, etc. A B list celebrity is one or two attributes removed from an A-Lister and C-Lister 3-4 steps away from an A-Lister. A D-Lister is not easily marketed.

I'm not that hip on Internet celebrities but I'll try to grade the CAGcasters accordingly.

CheapyD - B-list.
Moderately recognized, fairly attractive, experienced/trusted, interviews well.

Shipwreck - C-list.
Lacks recognition, fairly attractive, experienced/trusted, eloquent, interviews well.

Wombat - D-list.
Lacks recognition, polarizing figure, not always appropriate. (Truth be told, I respect wombat, he's just not very marketable)

My understanding of the celebrity grading system comes from Horace Dediu (http://www.asymco.com/) on the podcast The Critical Path (http://5by5.tv/criticalpath), episode "Below the (belt)line" (http://www.asymco.com/2012/01/04/5by5-the-critical-path-20-below-the-beltline/)

[Duke.Togo]

Wow Wombat, you must have been feeling like hell. I can't remember the last time I heard this much language from you. Get some rest, and I'm with you on the Kickstarted crap. I thought Kickstarter was out there for the little guys with great ideas, but oh well.

[Wombat]

I know Cheapy and Wombat wanted more people to talk about the A/B/C/D rating of Internet celebrities. The problem is that fans and casual observers do not define these lists. There are actual lists put out by Hollywood talent agencies that categorize celebrities based on their marketability.

An A list celebrity is someone who is attractive, experienced, well-known, easy to publicize, eloquent, great during interviews, etc. A B list celebrity is one or two attributes removed from an A-Lister and C-Lister 3-4 steps away from an A-Lister. A D-Lister is not easily marketed.

I'm not that hip on Internet celebrities but I'll try to grade the CAGcasters accordingly.

CheapyD - B-list.
Moderately recognized, fairly attractive, experienced/trusted, interviews well.

Shipwreck - C-list.
Lacks recognition, fairly attractive, experienced/trusted, eloquent, interviews well.

Wombat - D-list.
Lacks recognition, polarizing figure, not always appropriate. (Truth be told, I respect wombat, he's just not very marketable)

My understanding of the celebrity grading system comes from Horace Dediu (http://www.asymco.com/) on the podcast The Critical Path (http://5by5.tv/criticalpath), episode "Below the (belt)line" (http://www.asymco.com/2012/01/04/5by5-the-critical-path-20-below-the-beltline/)

really, I am not even fairly attractive?

[Curufinwe]

If you want to show support for a company, you buy their games. Nobody bought Psychonauts, which means not many people support Double Fine.

Enough people have bought recent Double Fine games like Trenched to keep them in business, and enough people wanted a new adventure game from Double Fine that they raised a million dollars in a day on kickstarter. Those are the facts, regardless of your bizarre obsession with a platform game they released seven years ago.

[turkeycat79]

Signed up for audible through your link.... i mean, how can anyone resist the way you guys advertise it!!!!

[Kosh]

Wombat running his mouth about something he knows nothing about? Must be a new episode of the Cagcast.

[Xevious]

Generally I enjoy listening to the show. But that rant that Wombat had against Kickstarter was a whole lotta nothing.

We should do a kickstarter program to buy a sock for his mouth.

[RedvsBlue]

Even though I tend to somewhat agree with his point about having the development already paid for gives them little incentive to work hard on the game, Wombat does have a tendency to rant and whine about things far too much.

I will say one thing though, if after releasing 3 games in the past year they don't have $400,000 in equity as a company, it begs the question of their longterm viability as a studio...

[Calinks]

I would love, LOVE if Sega came to the fans and spent a year or so collecting funds to make a game like Shenmue 3. I think if they did that for 12-18 months they would have enough backing to kick it off. I'd gladly put in $30. I wish more devs or fans would go to companies and help them make the obscure games a small segment of fans really want. Would love another AKI wrestling game,

[Curufinwe]

Independent developers like this guy have got more funding thanks to all the extra publicity kickstarter has received.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/564944684/pixel-sand/posts

http://motleycoder.com/wp-content/uploads/PixelSand.png

[donkeydrop]

Double Fine should be congratulated. After the whole Brutal Legend fiasco, with Activision pulling the funding, the lawsuit and then eventual release by EA to mediocre sales, I'm sure they were in financial trouble. Most developers would have been laying off staff; instead they took an aggressive strategy, split into four separate teams and manage to quickly push out some good quality downloadable games. Still, four downloadable games selling for a total less than one full release doesn't mean they are rolling in cash, so I really don't understand Wombat's attitude.

Most of the game industry works by publishers providing money up front so the developers can pay their staff during the development phase, but then the publisher takes the bulk of the sales revenue. Developers very rarely get to keep enough profit to be able to fund their own future projects. By using Kickstarter Double Fine now have a chance to fund the type of game that no big publisher would touch with a 10 foot pole, and to guarantee employees that they will still have a job when the game is done. And of course they still have motivation; if they give their Kickstarter supporters what they want - involvement in the development process, and a good game - they will have the potential to continue on with this model for years to come.

[Velo214]

David Jaffe and Kickstarter
http://kotaku.com/5884350/outgoing-twisted-metal-creator-would-consider-kickstarter-funding-for-his-new-project-too
LOL
also my grrl loves to reward my gameplay performance with sexual favors. I get hj/bjs all the time for doing well in MW3, but she would just laugh and kick sand in my face if I 'let her win' a game. He just said that for some free PR. der

oh and EA/DoubleFine, EA is a bunch of douches for not releasing the Brutal Legend patch to fix the corrupt save data after 75% stat completion. I was working on the plat this weekend and couldnt get it and looked online and he has the patch ready to go but EA won't release it. assholes.

[casamh]

Coaching girls basketball, sniffing pissy underwear, contracting a stomach virus, and slowly increasing the curse per minute count. Sounds like the plot for Hangover 3.

[viiral]

More bad jokes from Wombat.. Seriously.. stop it >_>

Decent show.

[S0LIDARITY]

really, I am not even fairly attractive?
I asked my girlfriend to rate attractiveness for me. The best picture I could find for you was
http://twitpic.com/show/thumb/2ri9ee.jpg
she said you looked like a 'nerdy dad.' Upon further review, she came up with 'somewhat attractive.'

[usickenme]

The extreme metaphor would be a person who makes a decent living, but periodically dresses up in ratty clothes and goes down to the soup kitchen for a free meal. Leave the free meal to those who need it.



No, that would be extremely flawed metaphor.

It's a flawed metaphor (analogy) because the dude getting a free meal isn't giving anything back. Double Fine is providing a game. That is the difference.

and who is to say Double Fine doesn't have $$ in the bank? That doesn't mean they have to be opposed to alternative development sources. Wombat wasn't playing "devil's advocate", he was playing dumb.

I personally didn't know anything about kickstarter and now I do. That's a win for everyone.

[Ultramontane]

I asked my girlfriend to rate attractiveness for me. The best picture I could find for you was
http://twitpic.com/show/thumb/2ri9ee.jpg
she said you looked like a 'nerdy dad.' Upon further review, she came up with 'somewhat attractive.'

screw the kickstarter controversy, where did Solidarity find this 'nerdy dad' picture? And 'somewhat attractive'? That sounds horrible.

Post that picture on hotornot.com. In fact, get Ship and Cheapy up there. I want real numbers.

[Wingwright]

Why don't you make a Kickstarter to fund a proper CAGForeplay Finale?

[Archaic]

Yes, Wombat went on at pretty extraordinary length on this show about a topic I'm not even sure he cared about. But this was just a proportionally larger rendition of what he does on most of the episodes; he talks up topics to create interest. In this case, it was a rare misfire.

If he didn't do this, the show would lack momentum. Cheapy, though I like him, works best as a smartass, rhetorical foil, because he basically just dismisses any aspect of gaming/industry news that doesn't jive 100% with his interests...And Shipwreck works best as a dry reporter with the occasional, unexpected interjections of humor.

Every show would be a pretty dull 20 minutes if the 3 weren't on simultaneously. They're great together when they're in synch, but --given that this isn't their day job-- they're not all gonna be cohesive on every single episode. I'm just glad we get what we do from this bunch; it's my favorite podcast, without question.

[Kazaganthi]

Shipwreck should speak up more often. It sounded like he had something to say about kickstarter, but he keeps getting interrupted and gives up.

Love listening to the CAGcast. Keep up the gaming related debates; interesting to hear even if it is to get us to post feedback.

Cheapy should watch the TV Show "Chuck". Yvonne was in Mass Effect first (ME2 Miranda), and damned if she isn't in her underwear every other episode. Chobot Robot is old news. Wasn't she a failed G4 host like Olivia Munn and Candace Bailey?

[mrx001]

All internet celebrities are D list celebrities.

[joyce_181502]

Wombat's comments on the whole kickstarter thing are bizarre.

For someone who attends industry events, you'd think he'd actually understand more about how the industry works:

-Publishers are the ones who fund the majority of the games and tend to only fund games that they believe will sell / are low risk
-Small studios are small meaning they can usually only work on one game at a time
-The industry is reputation based such that you're really only as good as your last game

So Double Fine asking for money so they can make another game in parallel; a classic adventure game that a publisher would never fund, and actually use the money to make a good game instead of just take it and run shouldn't be seen as greed / a "surprise".

[triforcer]

I usually like Wombat playing devil's advocate, but Costume Quest and Stacking didn't cost $400k to make. The budget for each were around $2 million according to Tim Schafer and he's made it clear that no publisher would fund a point and click adventure game. That and they rather not have to pander to the wishes of a publisher to make the game more mainstream friendly. The point of the Kickstarter was to make a point and click adventure game and they only wanted to make it if people wanted it.

[MSUHitman]

Wombat you're not alone on the Double Fine/Kickstarter issue: Colin Moriarity from the IGN Playstation team shares your opinion on it and also is as strongly opinionated on it as you are.

[viiral]

I usually like Wombat playing devil's advocate, but Costume Quest and Stacking didn't cost $400k to make. The budget for each were around $2 million according to Tim Schafer and he's made it clear that no publisher would fund a point and click adventure game. That and they rather not have to pander to the wishes of a publisher to make the game more mainstream friendly. The point of the Kickstarter was to make a point and click adventure game and they only wanted to make it if people wanted it.

This +1 .. :whee:

[Drclaw411]

Heard you guys mention my NBA Elite 11 blog in the cagcast. Just to clarify: yes, I paid $1000 for it. Also added that to the blog since many people asked. Only reason I left it off to begin with was to avoid flames. I'm happy with the buy but it is the internet, after all, and flames tend to happen there.

Also: from the research I did when I was gathering info on the game, there are about 15 known copies out there right now.

[trip1eX]

Cheapie says he wants to give money to support his favorite game by purchasing lame DLC, but I think all he is supporting is more lame DLC.

[Zacmanman]

He raised some good points. Wombat I mean.

I think Double Fine and maybe Valve would be the only companies that could pull this off. Could you imagine Activision doing this for MW4?

Valve? Really, Valve? They have more money than God. The only reason they have EA publish their games is to distribute them physically. Other than that, they're almost totally independent.

[Dee_Lucky]

Wombat when you announce you've got a great Tim Schafer story, and you can't share it, that's called bad radio.

Also the weight loss competition should be incorporated with kinect. I know both of you rarely use the device, this could be a good opportunity to use it. I personally recommend the Biggest Loser game. I can even imagine Microsoft taking notice to something like this. Regarding the rules for this bit, it should be simple. My only problem is that i don't trust Wombat or Cheapy to give an honest weigh in. So I'm going to need the both of you to take a picture with your feet on the scale. In the picture i need your weight, a current newspaper and dime for scale.

[Dee_Lucky]

Wombat when you announce you've got a great Tim Schafer story, and you can't share it, that's called bad radio.

Also the weight loss competition should be incorporated with kinect. I know both of you rarely use the device, this could be a good opportunity to use it. I personally recommend the Biggest Loser game. I can even imagine Microsoft taking notice to something like this. Regarding the rules for this bit, it should be simple. My only problem is that i don't trust Wombat or Cheapy to give an honest weigh in. So I'm going to need the both of you to take a picture with your feet on the scale. In the picture i need your weight, a current newspaper and a dime for scale.

[Backlash]

Hopefully y'all are still reading the show comments thread even though it's been almost a week, because I'd like to remark on something other than Wombat and the Kickstarted thing:

Cheapy D's bizarre inability to understand why some people like sequels to games he doesn't like. He has consistently remarked that the Vita's lineup isn't good because it's just "more of the same" for games that came out on consoles. But let's look at some of his favorite games from 2011: Forza 4 (4th in the series), Skyrim (5th in the series), Saint's Row the Third (3rd in the series). All "more of the same!"

I'm not getting a Vita, and I personally don't want more Wipeout, Hot Shots Golf, etc, etc, but I certainly understand why some people do. Handhelds vs consoles vs simple phone games is a whole other subject which I'll leave alone for now.

[Kazaganthi]

Hopefully y'all are still reading the show comments thread even though it's been almost a week, because I'd like to remark on something other than Wombat and the Kickstarted thing:

Cheapy D's bizarre inability to understand why some people like sequels to games he doesn't like. He has consistently remarked that the Vita's lineup isn't good because it's just "more of the same" for games that came out on consoles. But let's look at some of his favorite games from 2011: Forza 4 (4th in the series), Skyrim (5th in the series), Saint's Row the Third (3rd in the series). All "more of the same!"

I'm not getting a Vita, and I personally don't want more Wipeout, Hot Shots Golf, etc, etc, but I certainly understand why some people do. Handhelds vs consoles vs simple phone games is a whole other subject which I'll leave alone for now.

Wow, I agree. I hate Modern Warfare and Call of Duty shit, but I don't ask "Why is there a sequel to that dumb game?". I take that back, I do. Four hour campaign and slight updates doesn't sound like a new game.

One bad google search brought up: FFXIII sold 450,000 copies day one and 5,750,000 copies overall. And that's for what some deem as a "Failure to the series". Sure it's not the 9mil of MW3, but it's a different target audience. Just like the Wii has its (huge) audience.

Iphone sucks, bad Wombat!

[danchilders]

There are three problems with Wombats anti-Double Fine rant:

1) Mid level developers are struggling to survive in general. If they can't get publisher backing then their game generally has little chance nowadays because they get buried in the marketing and press attention AAA budget titles get. This has little to do with the quality of the game or even public interest. It is about mindshare. Those with the money can buy the mindshare. This kickstart move was a means for Doublefine to get some mindshare for their product despite the fact that they lack a publisher or the deep pockets necessary to provide a huge marketing blitz.

2) There are many many people whose motivation to do well has jack shit to do with money. Maybe Wombat finds this hard to believe, but people who follow their passion as career are not really motivated to do their best by money. If this were the case, they all would have become lawyers or doctors rather than musicians, artists, or teachers. They usually value the freedom to follow they passion more than they value money. As a college instructor, I can tell you flat out if you offered one job where I made half the salary but was allowed to structure my own courses and another where I made double but had to follow a set course structure, I would not only take the first option in a heartbeat, I would work a lot harder because I am passionate about my teaching. What is going to drive Schafer and crew is their newly found freedom to make the game they want to make. If you fear a developer half assing a game you should have far more fears about all the greenlit sequels teams are forced to continually make.

3) Regardless of the situition, it is pretty shitty to automatically condemn someone you don't know as a "douche." It is even more shitty to call them this in public without explaining. Maybe you are so naive that when someone tells you something, you assume they aren't trying to put themselves in a positive light, that there is no telephone game exaggeration effect happening, and that what you are being told is representative of the person being talked about. If so, grow up. Most of us learned how stupid, self serving, and false gossip is when we were in middle school. The only people who deserve to be subjected to immature gossip is the type of person who spreads it. So I hope someone out there knows the shittiest thing Wombat ever did and that they then exaggerate it and spread it to thousands of people. He deserves it. I heard he was a douche.