XBOX2 article

[gaelan]

http://money.cnn.com/2005/01/06/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/index.htm?cnn=yes

not too much definitive info. i do like the "better than average chance of backwards compatibility". i don't like the $5 to $10 more per game title or the $300-$400 price tag for next gen console. I don't know what to make of Gate's vision of making XBL play compatible with Online PC gamers.

[doubledown]

Yeah, not sure how keen I am on buying a launch day XBOX 2. We'll see how good it REALLY is when it REALLY is released. Although, if they stop supporting XBOX, and a majority of games go to the next-gen systems.....then it will be tough not to switch over.

[evilmax17]

I won't get one at launch, but I will eventually. If they come in different models as was said at one time, I'm getting an HDD in mine.

[Jaxcomet]

http://money.cnn.com/2005/01/06/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/index.htm?cnn=yes

not too much definitive info. i do like the "better than average chance of backwards compatibility". i don't like the $5 to $10 more per game title or the $300-$400 price tag for next gen console. I don't know what to make of Gate's vision of making XBL play compatible with Online PC gamers.

$300-$400 seems about right to me. Come on, they'll be getting $200 for the PSP! It's a hand-held system! I don't care how good it looks. The game price rise has already begun on the PC side so it's just a matter of time.

[gaelan]

http://money.cnn.com/2005/01/06/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/index.htm?cnn=yes

not too much definitive info. i do like the "better than average chance of backwards compatibility". i don't like the $5 to $10 more per game title or the $300-$400 price tag for next gen console. I don't know what to make of Gate's vision of making XBL play compatible with Online PC gamers.

$300-$400 seems about right to me. Come on, they'll be getting $200 for the PSP! It's a hand-held system! I don't care how good it looks. The game price rise has already begun on the PC side so it's just a matter of time.

They are leaning more towards $400 now. I will get it, but not at launch. As a general rule, I usually don't buy 1st gen electronics. There are usually bugs to be worked out such as xbox's thompson drive problems. Anyways, I don't see the current xbox becoming obsolete the way some systems have in the past when a new model comes out. For one they have several quality games planned for release well into 2005. The XBL community will continue to game online. Halo2 is going strong, and I think it will continue due to Halo fans and Bungie's intense involvement with the online community.

There are always those that HAVE to have the latest and greatest of any gaming/electronic device. I am too cheap and poor to be on the cutting edge, so I settle for what I can afford. Also, by the time I can afford to take a technology leap, the price has usually dropped and the bugs have been worked out giving me more bang for my buck.

[CapAmerica]

I don't know some of this info seems a bit weird to me.
1st MS has said they want to launch the Xbox2 at a LOW price a price that would match Nintendo. $300-$400 doesn't seem like it would match Nintendo infact that close to what the PS3 might be.
2nd Backwards compatibility, I still think this is very unlikely. First its totaly differnt hardware. second MS has more money to gain my doing SE of their few hits then making the Xbox2 Backwards compatibility. Just think about all the copies of Halo 2 SE that will sell if you don't have Backwards compatibility.

I do think some game studios will be jacking up their price on games, but I have a feeling this is going to hurt them in the long run. Just look at all us CAG =P

Being able to play PC vs Xbox2 would be totaly cool, 1 problem thou, Hackers. The PC versions of the games will be full of hacks and Mods which has been something Xbox live has been trying to keep out, when you put Xbox live on the PC it just opens the flood gates.

[epobirs]

This repeated rumor of using a networked PC in place of a internal hard drive or flash memory is utter nonsense. I cannot believe how many clueless people keep repeating this without considering the problems.

A game console must be self-contained for it's primary functions. Anything that forces developers to consider the value of a subset of the installed base is problematic. If Xbox2 relied on home networks for caching data, it would first of all have horrible performance. The best case scenario is that Microsoft includes a gigabit Ethernet port. This won't have significant penetration in homes for several more years, much longer than can be regarded as offering a useful base for the game console. This leaves our more realistic scenario as 100 Mb Ethernet. Assuming the PC in question doesn't have other things keeping it busy, this is going to be a major performance downgrade from an internal ATA66 device as seen in the existing Xbox. (The new machine would likely use Serial ATA for a number of good reasons, including 1.5 GB speed.) This would allow for the benfits of mass storage of downloaded data but the caching which has so distinguished Xbox usage would be lost. Go to wireless and things get much worse.

This would only be viable for secondary applications. For instance, the current Xbox can be used as a display terminal for a Media PC system. The next Xbox would carry this concept further but it would be suicidal to make a home network an out of box requirement for a game system.

[epobirs]

I don't know some of this info seems a bit weird to me.
1st MS has said they want to launch the Xbox2 at a LOW price a price that would match Nintendo. $300-$400 doesn't seem like it would match Nintendo infact that close to what the PS3 might be.
2nd Backwards compatibility, I still think this is very unlikely. First its totaly differnt hardware. second MS has more money to gain my doing SE of their few hits then making the Xbox2 Backwards compatibility. Just think about all the copies of Halo 2 SE that will sell if you don't have Backwards compatibility.

I do think some game studios will be jacking up their price on games, but I have a feeling this is going to hurt them in the long run. Just look at all us CAG =P

Being able to play PC vs Xbox2 would be totaly cool, 1 problem thou, Hackers. The PC versions of the games will be full of hacks and Mods which has been something Xbox live has been trying to keep out, when you put Xbox live on the PC it just opens the flood gates.

The primary hurdle in offering backward compatibility isn't hardware, it's NVIDIA's intellectual property. Microsoft doesn't own the technology inside the two chips NVIDIA supplies tot he Xbox. They have exclusive rights to those specific iterations but they cannot just hand over the internal details to ATI to allow them to produce a chip that understand the XGPU microcode or can fake it fast enough as not to matter.

There is a lot of speculation that a software approach was one of the motivations for their purchase of Connectix, a company with ample experience in emulation. The server side of this purchase is already out ther in Beta form but many believe that wasn't the sole motive behind the acquisition. Emulation, however, doesn't solve all of the legal issues involved but it does reduce the hardware design burden.

[javeryh]

I will not pay more than $200 for ANY next-gen system especially when I have a stack of AAA sealed games that I don't have time for right now...

[maxflight]

I will not pay more than $200 for ANY next-gen system especially when I have a stack of AAA sealed games that I don't have time for right now...

perhaps the revolution would launch at $200 :D

[CapAmerica]

Virtual PC has never been that great even on a High end Power Mac G5. It can emulate a PC so-so Its good for doing anything non-graphic intence or CPU intence. Virtual PC has been a good tool if you need to do basic office work stuff or slow server side stuff. Graphics and CPU speed have always been problems for Connectix's Virtual PC. Over time they have been able to slowly fix the CPU speed problem, but Graphics have always been the Biggest problems and it just seems very unlikely that even with MS's help they would be able to fix that problems.

[vherub]

speaking of live, any words on how ms will be handling balancing both xbox2 and xbox games on the system?
will subscriptions carry over?
if the system is backwards compatible, will live be backwards compatible?
if not, how does ms plan to build its live subscriber base at the same time it is leaving xbox for xbox2?
or will they follow sega not just i launching first, but balancing multiple systems at once?

[epobirs]

Activision has already taken to premium price for games that have a maximum number of suckers lined up. Look at the $55 release price of Doom 3. Now, just a few months later you can easily find it for $30.

Jacking up prices is not a good strategy. While ticket prices over the years have steadily risen it still remains that I pay the same to see a $20 million comedy as I do to see $150 million FX laden epic. The epic cost a hell of a lot more but it also expects to draw a vastly larger audience, many of who will show up just for the sheer spectacle even if it isn't a decent screenplay. Bigger budgets are supposed to be their own reward.

If they cannot produce games that justify their budgets through greater sales, then they need to reconsider how they produce their product.

[epobirs]

speaking of live, any words on how ms will be handling balancing both xbox2 and xbox games on the system?
will subscriptions carry over?
if the system is backwards compatible, will live be backwards compatible?
if not, how does ms plan to build its live subscriber base at the same time it is leaving xbox for xbox2?
or will they follow sega not just i launching first, but balancing multiple systems at once?

This would go hand in hand with their desire to make Live available across multiple platforms. If they offer backward compatibility then Live would be part of that. Live already support portability of the account so it wouldn't be a big deal for your ID to be replicated on the portions of the local storage used by Xbox mode as well as on that used by Xbox2 mode. Some of Microosft's past roadmaps for Live have suggested that Xbox is just the starting point and that it would eventually encompass all possible platforms from cellphones to PCs. The first step is thing like Instant Messaging for sending alerts and invites.

[Morrigan Lover]

I don't know what to make of Gate's vision of making XBL play compatible with Online PC gamers.

The Dreamcast version of Quake 3 was online compatible with the PC version. The Dreamcast users had to play with the Dreamcast keyboard/mouse to be competitive.

[gaelan]

Being able to play PC vs Xbox2 would be totaly cool, 1 problem thou, Hackers. The PC versions of the games will be full of hacks and Mods which has been something Xbox live has been trying to keep out, when you put Xbox live on the PC it just opens the flood gates.

...shouldn't the "secure" LIVE network alleviate this potential problem. If a PC user wanted to game against a xboxer over lIVE, it would seem likely they would have to log into the network and (hopefully) disable any "unauthorized" scripts or whatever is necessary to hack a game. I'm sure they wouldn't open that can of worms unless MS knew for sure that they could keep the gaming cheat free. So far, they've done pretty good on XBL.

[epobirs]

Virtual PC has never been that great even on a High end Power Mac G5. It can emulate a PC so-so Its good for doing anything non-graphic intence or CPU intence. Virtual PC has been a good tool if you need to do basic office work stuff or slow server side stuff. Graphics and CPU speed have always been problems for Connectix's Virtual PC. Over time they have been able to slowly fix the CPU speed problem, but Graphics have always been the Biggest problems and it just seems very unlikely that even with MS's help they would be able to fix that problems.

It's rather more involved than that. VPC had problems on the G5 because the chip lacked a bit of hardware that Motorola had long included on their PowerPC CPUs. This was a conversion function to mitigate the Big-endian and Little-endian difference between Intel and Motorola CPUs. Doing this in software is a major bit of heavy lifting, even for the G5. This is why VPC runs much faster on a G4 than on a G5 and recent version wouldn't run at all on the G5 because they required the conversion function in the CPU.

Likewise, graphics had been an issue due to IP. Connectix couldn't emulate specific popular chips like NVIDIA's because of the legal issues. So VPC used a generic form of graphics adapter based on VESA specs. This meant there was no way to map functions that really need hardware acceleration to the graphics chip in the Mac. More recent version offer better video chip targeting and the difference is quite considerable.

Those issues have almost no bearing on the needs of Xbox2. Unlike the PC in all its myriad variations, the Xbox is a fixed platform and an aging one at that. Most people running VPC for the first time foolishly expect it to be comparable to the Pentium 4 or Athlon XP they're accustomed to on the PC side. That is an unrealistic expectation but to emulate the performance of a 733 MHz Pentium III on the class of CPU(s) likely to be in the Xbox2 is no big deal. Emulating one fixed platform on another simplifies things greatly and allows for a great deal of performance tuning. In fact. there may be places where wait states are needed to prevent the greater performance for altering the behavior of games. (Unlike PC games that are designed to compensate for increased processor performance, Xbox developers have never needed to do this, so an emulator has to compensate.)

Likewise, the XGPU is a very specific target in this case. It is a given that the host system, the Xbox2, will have a DX 9 or 10 class GPU, so mapping most functions directly wn't be a problem so long as it doesn't get into the touchy IP issue. Again, the level of performance offered by what ATI is likely to deliver will mean some function will require limitations to prevent games from being altered.

[Kaijufan]

MS had better include a hard drive in the next Xbox. MS could buy so many of them at once that they would get massive discounts.

[epobirs]

MS had better include a hard drive in the next Xbox. MS could buy so many of them at once that they would get massive discounts.

They're already getting them as cheap as possible. The made million+ unit commitments to beoth Western Digital and Seagate with the added compensation that the low capacity requirements relative to the PC market allowed those companies to squeeze some added value out of existing production lines before they had to be revamped to produce drives using newer technology. Microsoft is the last volume customer on the planet for 3.5" drives of such capacity. It doesn't get any cheaper than the deals they cut.

But hard drives involve a lot of mechanical and material costs that never go any lower. The value may improve as capacity increases but the unit cost will never go below a certain mark. This is why Microsoft has enlisted M-Systems, a company specializing in flash memory substitutes for standard hard drives, to create a flash based solution for their next console. Unlike hard drives, flash memories follow the price curve of the silicon and thus the amount included in Xbox2 may be expensive for the first few million units but the cost will drop, eventually going much lower than the equivalent capacity hard drive.

If you're a longtime do-it-yourselfer with PCs you can see this at retail. Over the years the hard drive I've installed have gone tens of megabytes to hundreds of gigabytes but the best price for entry level units has never gotten below $30-40 in single quantity. In massive quantities the price is better but still has a significant bottom line cost. At the same time, flash memory has made huge strides. It may not have the sheer capacity of hard drives matched for cost but that level is way beyond console needs. It was just a few years ago we were amazed at the first gigabyte Compact Flash cards, never mind the nearly $1,000 price tag. Now those cards are around $50. The upcoming 8 gigabit generation of flash is going to bring 4 GB CF cards to that price and lower.

There is also the advantage of a much smaller physical volume and lower power requirements. With flash memory you don't have to think about powering down the drive to reduce power load. If you aren't reading or writing to the drive it doesn't draw any significant juice. This should help a lot in making the new console less bulky than its predecessor. Not only will the drive be smaller but also the power supply.

[-BigC-]

XBL and PC online play is baaaad news

Best thing about xbox is the fact you cant get hacks on your xbox.I mean you can but you get banned fast because its alot easier to detect cheats on xbox then a pc.

Plus controller vs mouse isnt fair it would be no contest for all but the best controller players

[gaelan]

Plus controller vs mouse isnt fair it would be no contest for all but the best controller players

considering this, MS will probably come out with Online Poker, Trivial Pursuit or Tetris that can be played by PC and Xbox together.

See we told you that our glorious vision would come true. Now PC gamers and Online gamers can enjoy online gaming together.

[CaseyRyback]

MS is setting themselves up to fail. Making the hardware cost that much, along with the fact that it will be much weaker than either SONY or Nintendo's system( a year leaves too much time to upgrade their systems to blow them out of the water) leaves them at a distinct advantage. Aside from Halo, and a couple of good racing games, they have no real first party support, and most of the developers they have that are supporting them are only doing so because they have the best hardware. TECMO will be begging to get at that new SONY or Nintendo system if it is the most powerful (Team Ninja= biggest graphics whore in the business).

[MrFriday18]

I say 300 would be the best thing for microsoft to do. Anything over 300 only intrests hardcore gamers and does not appeal to casual gamers, and parents that are buying something for their children. Im saying anything over 300 would be a mistake, not saying I wouldnt pay more b/c I would. Also games costing more I hardly dought it some people are stingy already about paying $50 for a game.

Id rather have Microsoft wait another year and have a three way battle with Sony or Nintendo. I don't mind playing my xbox for another 2 years, to be honest im not totally ready for a new system, but im willing to buy one at launch. Geez i need to start saving up.

[Scorch]

If it's not backwards compatible.. man, my XBox along with all the games = going up on ebay.. well, maybe. I dunno.

Plus controller vs mouse isnt fair it would be no contest for all but the best controller players

There's a keyboard/mouse adapter for xbox.

[dafoomie]

MS is setting themselves up to fail. Making the hardware cost that much, along with the fact that it will be much weaker than either SONY or Nintendo's system( a year leaves too much time to upgrade their systems to blow them out of the water) leaves them at a distinct advantage. Aside from Halo, and a couple of good racing games, they have no real first party support, and most of the developers they have that are supporting them are only doing so because they have the best hardware. TECMO will be begging to get at that new SONY or Nintendo system if it is the most powerful (Team Ninja= biggest graphics whore in the business).
I'm not convinced that Xbox 2 will be weaker graphically. Xbox launched 20 months after PS2 did, and PS2's graphics would be better if not for its poor design. Xbox 2 will launch in winter 05, PS3 will launch in Japan in Q1 06 (January-March). I don't see a huge time differential in terms of when the hardware gets done, but Xbox will gain an advantage in being first by far to launch in the US.

As for "no 1st party support", how about Halo 1/2, Mechassault 1/2, Crimson Skies, Forza, Blinx 1/2, Brute Force, Conker, Fable, Jade Empire, Kameo, Kingdom Under Fire, Kung Fu Chaos, Perfect Dark Zero, Project Gotham Racing 1/2, Sudeki, Phantom Dust, and Top Spin? Theres nothing wrong with Xbox's 1st party support, and it has excellent 3rd party support.

Tecmo is already signed on for some Xbox 2 titles. Xbox's hardware is one factor in Itagaki liking it, the other is Microsoft's developer support. They bend over backwards for developers and kiss their asses. They'll do anything for a developer. They have code available prewritten for a lot of functions, like Live, they'll send employees to assist developers. There was one recent game (I forgot which) where MS sent an employee to a Japanese developer to write their entire net code to get it on Live. I'm sure the CEO of Tecmo would love to get DOA on Sony's machine and get some sales in Japan, but Itagaki made that call. He doesn't have any "loyalty" towards MS though, and he'd probably love to go to Sony too if the hardware and support matched up.