View Full Version : Randy Smith FIRED from Ion Storm by Warren Spector!
Scrubking
04-03-2004, 06:26 PM
Randy was one of the big guys behind the Thief legacy and now he has been fired due to dissagreeing with Warren Spector. He was one of the few people working on Thief: Deadly Shadows that actually cared about protecting the Thief legacy, and now he has been fired from his project leader postiion.
Warren Spector is indeed on a mission to dumb down games for the masses, and Randy was a casualty of his personal crusade.
http://cheapassgamer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10935
http://66.193.119.177/index.php?showtopic=209337
http://66.193.119.177/index.php?showtopic=209329
PsyClerk
04-03-2004, 06:41 PM
Warren Spector is a moron, and Ion Storm is seemingly cursed. To hell with them.
CaseyRyback
04-03-2004, 06:52 PM
why does Warren Spector want so badly to become the next John Romero?
Scrubking
04-03-2004, 06:59 PM
If that news wasn't bad enough take a look at what the next Deus Ex game will be called.
DEUS EX: CLAN WARS
http://games.slashdot.org/games/04/04/02/2339220.shtml?tid=127&tid=186&tid=211&tid=212
That is one of the most flamingly gay titles I have ever heard.
Mr. Anderson
04-03-2004, 07:32 PM
I'm surprised their making a third game, after how badly DX:IW sold.
Scrubking
04-03-2004, 07:45 PM
I'm surprised their making a third game, after how badly DX:IW sold.
It's funny cause for some reason they think that if they continue to make games like IW, which flopped, they will somehow break through and make millions. Those people have seriously lost their minds.
daphatty
04-04-2004, 12:39 AM
Ion who?
CaseyRyback
04-04-2004, 12:51 AM
Ion who?
lol
Ion who?
How could you forget the people who unleashed Daikatana upon the world?
CaseyRyback
04-04-2004, 01:03 AM
Ion who?
How could you forget the people who unleashed Daikatana upon the world?
that was Dallas not austin though.
SneakyPenguin
04-04-2004, 01:09 AM
i liked ion storm. deus ex and anachronox were some of my favorite games. why do good companies have to go bad?
i liked ion storm. deus ex and anachronox were some of my favorite games...
I agree with that. Anachronox, it's been too long.
XboxMaster
04-04-2004, 01:09 PM
Wait, I thought DE:IW was supposed to be good. I played it and it was more than fairly decent. Anyway, explain more of what the guy that got fired did for the company please.
Wait, I thought DE:IW was supposed to be good. I played it and it was more than fairly decent. Anyway, explain more of what the guy that got fired did for the company please.
Well, he'd generally come in at least fifteen minutes late, ah, he'd use the side door--that way Spector couldn't see him, heh--after that he'd sorta space out for an hour. He'd just stare at his desk, but it looked like he was working. He'd do that for probably another hour after lunch too, I'd say in a given week he'd probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work.
Scrubking
04-04-2004, 10:44 PM
You guys should check out the spin capaign going over at the ion storm forums.
The new ion manager, Trey, started posting and now he's got everyone eating out of his hands. They are trying SO hard to draw attention away from the Randy firing it is hilarious. In fact not long after the news one of the devs started a question thread and had plenty of time to answer questions when before he would only answer 1 or 2 per day.
They still haven't answered any questions about Randy, and they continue being vague in everything they say.
CaseyRyback
04-05-2004, 02:25 AM
It just pisses me off that he can't take a hint. PC players do not want streamlined experiences thats a console gamers territory
I play both and there is an obvious difference between the two. Why not make a T3 for the PC market and then a console version? Ubi did it and thats why RS3 sold so well
Scrubking
04-05-2004, 02:30 AM
Why not make a T3 for the PC market and then a console version?
Cause they are greedy bastards who have lost sight of making quality games, and only care about the bottom line.
If you actually do some research and study Warren's interviews you will see the huge difference between his philosphy then and now. It's almost like Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hyde
A few points.
1. There's nothing wrong with "streamlining" a gaming experience. Deus Ex 1 was needlessly complicated in parts, especially the menus (ie, the little item juggling Tetris mini-game or having to open the menu and drop the combat knife every time you looted a soldier's body.)
2. You can't blame them for developing for consoles first (or exclusively, which I predict they'll eventually do.) Consoles are easier to make a game for since you only have to program for one configuration, so costs are cut there. And it's not like consoles are a little niche market. Games like GTA3 can come out of nowhere and sell millions of copies. I'm sure Ion Storm aims for that goal.
3. They're not talking about Randy Smith because they have professionalism. I'm sure lots of people want them to air their dirty laundry, but in the world of business it's just not something you do.
Scrubking
04-05-2004, 03:30 AM
A few points.
1. There's nothing wrong with "streamlining" a gaming experience. Deus Ex 1 was needlessly complicated in parts, especially the menus (ie, the little item juggling Tetris mini-game or having to open the menu and drop the combat knife every time you looted a soldier's body.)
2. You can't blame them for developing for consoles first (or exclusively, which I predict they'll eventually do.) Consoles are easier to make a game for since you only have to program for one configuration, so costs are cut there. And it's not like consoles are a little niche market. Games like GTA3 can come out of nowhere and sell millions of copies. I'm sure Ion Storm aims for that goal.
3. They're not talking about Randy Smith because they have professionalism. I'm sure lots of people want them to air their dirty laundry, but in the world of business it's just not something you do.
1. Complexity is a good thing because it usually means more gaming options. People tend to incorreclty equate complexity with difficulty - those two things are not the same. Would you rather have a simple options menu with 3 configurable items or a complex options menu with many configurable items? Deus Ex was an intelligent game for intelligent gamers - if someone couldn't handle the easy inventory system then they probably shouldn't have been playing it in the first place. The knife issue was a design flaw that had nothing to do with the inventory system.
2. Console gamers are not idiots. They don't need special ed treatment when making a game for them. So the whole "streamlinging is good" argument is pointless. If ISA wants to make easy dumbed down games fine, but they should not have tried to turn an intelligent series into a dumb one. If you are a console gamer you should be angry at the fact that ISA thinks you are an idiot and can't handle an intelligent complex game. Even worse they didn't even bother to make the pc version of IW pc friendly - that speaks volumes about their quality ethic.
3. There is a difference between wanting gossip and wanting to hear a decent non-spun explanation for what happened with Randy. Randy Smith practically IS Thief, and to fire him only shows how little ISA cares for the games legacy and fanbase. What truly is unprofesional is taking a quality series such as Thief and turning it into baby food in hopes of getting some more money.
ISA's new philosophy has already failed with Invisible War so people can defend it all they want, but it's still a failure. And I am sure it will continue to fail as long as they keep sacrificing quality in hopes of striking it rich.
punqsux
04-05-2004, 03:32 AM
soo, who here thinks warren spector has been killed and his position taken over by an evil robot that hates games?
1. Complexity is a good thing because it usually means more gaming options. People tend to incorreclty equate complexity with difficulty - those two things are not the same. Would you rather have a simple options menu with 3 configurable items or a complex options menu with many configurable items? Deus Ex was an intelligent game for intelligent gamers - if someone couldn't handle the easy inventory system then they probably shouldn't have been playing it in the first place. The knife issue was a design flaw that had nothing to do with the inventory system.
2. Console gamers are not idiots. They don't need special ed treatment when making a game for them. So the whole "streamlinging is good" argument is pointless. If ISA wants to make easy dumbed down games fine, but they should not have tried to turn an intelligent series into a dumb one. If you are a console gamer you should be angry at the fact that ISA thinks you are an idiot and can't handle an intelligent complex game. Even worse they didn't even bother to make the pc version of IW pc friendly - that speaks volumes about their quality ethic.
3. There is a difference between wanting gossip and wanting to hear a decent non-spun explanation for what happened with Randy. Randy Smith practically IS Thief, and to fire him only shows how little ISA cares for the games legacy and fanbase. What truly is unprofesional is taking a quality series such as Thief and turning it into baby food in hopes of getting some more money.
ISA's new philosophy has already failed with Invisible War so people can defend it all they want, but it's still a failure. And I am sure it will continue to fail as long as they keep sacrificing quality in hopes of striking it rich.
No, complexity isn't a good thing. Simplicity and intuitiveness are what you aim for in design, game or otherwise. Lots of options are fine, but they need to be easily accessable to the user without requiring them to read a hundred page manual to understand them. It holds especially true for an action based games like the DX series.
Most console gamers aren't idiots, I'll agree with that, but the rapidly expanding market is the casual gamer and they're by definition not as obsessive about playing as gamers of the past have been. They're not going to want to dedicate a lot of time to learning all the nuances of the various systems a game can throw at them, they just want to pick up and play with as little hassle as possible. That's not a bad thing. Checkers didn't kill chess, afterall.
Ion Storm isn't explaining and Randy Smith himself isn't saying anything. I think that speaks that either a) their split was amicable and neither wants to speak ill of the other or b) Randy was in the wrong and doesn't want to get himself blacklisted from the industry. If he was totally blameless and it was just Warren Spector going on an insane firing spree wouldn't Randy want to clear the air and say "hey, look here, game industry, I'm a good designer whose ideas have been heralded in the past as being revolutionary. My old boss fired me because he's a nut, so I'm more than happy to spruce up your game stable?"
As to DX:IW being a failure, I'm not sure how you figure that. It gameranks only marginally lower, so critics liked it well enough and it's sales numbers aren't great, I'm sure, but it was released in a real loaded holiday season. There were quite a few good games that got overlooked. BG&E for example. As far as I'm concerned DX2 was a lot more fun to actually play than DX1. Maybe because it took less than half the amount of time to play, I'm not sure. I didn't like the way the story of the second one unfolded as much as the first one, but gameplay wise it was miles ahead.
Mr. Anderson
04-05-2004, 04:24 AM
1. Complexity is a good thing because it usually means more gaming options. People tend to incorreclty equate complexity with difficulty - those two things are not the same. Would you rather have a simple options menu with 3 configurable items or a complex options menu with many configurable items? Deus Ex was an intelligent game for intelligent gamers - if someone couldn't handle the easy inventory system then they probably shouldn't have been playing it in the first place. The knife issue was a design flaw that had nothing to do with the inventory system.
2. Console gamers are not idiots. They don't need special ed treatment when making a game for them. So the whole "streamlinging is good" argument is pointless. If ISA wants to make easy dumbed down games fine, but they should not have tried to turn an intelligent series into a dumb one. If you are a console gamer you should be angry at the fact that ISA thinks you are an idiot and can't handle an intelligent complex game. Even worse they didn't even bother to make the pc version of IW pc friendly - that speaks volumes about their quality ethic.
3. There is a difference between wanting gossip and wanting to hear a decent non-spun explanation for what happened with Randy. Randy Smith practically IS Thief, and to fire him only shows how little ISA cares for the games legacy and fanbase. What truly is unprofesional is taking a quality series such as Thief and turning it into baby food in hopes of getting some more money.
ISA's new philosophy has already failed with Invisible War so people can defend it all they want, but it's still a failure. And I am sure it will continue to fail as long as they keep sacrificing quality in hopes of striking it rich.
No, complexity isn't a good thing. Simplicity and intuitiveness are what you aim for in design, game or otherwise. Lots of options are fine, but they need to be easily accessable to the user without requiring them to read a hundred page manual to understand them. It holds especially true for an action based games like the DX series.
I gotta agree with jmcc on this one, you want it as simple as possible, but it seems complex. Lots of options, but easily accessible.
Scrubking
04-05-2004, 02:59 PM
No, complexity isn't a good thing. Simplicity and intuitiveness are what you aim for in design, game or otherwise. Lots of options are fine, but they need to be easily accessable to the user without requiring them to read a hundred page manual to understand them. It holds especially true for an action based games like the DX series.
The fact is that there have been games with hundred page manuals (NWN), and they sold extremely well.
Another example is the game I recently bought, Culdcept (PS2). It is very complex, but easy to play and get into.
I will say it again for the last time:
Complexity /= difficulty
And complex games offer more gamer options than simple games, and more gamer options = better gameplay = better game.
The fact is that there have been games with hundred page manuals (NWN), and they sold extremely well.
Another example is the game I recently bought, Culdcept (PS2). It is very complex, but easy to play and get into.
I will say it again for the last time:
Complexity /= difficulty
And complex games offer more gamer options than simple games, and more gamer options = better gameplay = better game.
Complexity should arise in the way you play, not the way you're forced to play by the game. To cite classical games again: look at Go. It has an extremely limited amount of options compared to NWN, yet it's possible that you could play it for a lifetime and never have the exact same game come up twice. The idea that you can't have a free game experience without being buried under menus and stats is limited thinking.
Scrubking
04-05-2004, 03:33 PM
The idea that you can't have a free game experience without being buried under menus and stats is limited thinking.
Um, I never said that. :wink:
The idea that you can't have a free game experience without being buried under menus and stats is limited thinking.
Um, I never said that. :wink:
Well, I was aiming it more at developers, but I think I can quote you as having said it. No one will question ellipses between every letter of your quote, right?
Scrubking
04-05-2004, 03:48 PM
Since you don't seem to understand what I am saying I will repeat for the very last time.
1. Games don't have to be dumbed down to work on consoles
2. Complex games can sell just as well as simple games
3. Complexity does not equal difficulty
4. Complex games offer players more options than simple games.
Example of a simple game: A fighting game where you just mash the buttons and the game does the combos for you
Example of a complex game: A fighting game where you have to input the combos manually.
Since you don't seem to understand what I am saying I will repeat for the very last time.
1. Games don't have to be dumbed down to work on consoles
2. Complex games can sell just as well as simple games
3. Complexity does not equal difficulty
4. Complex games offer players more options than simple games.
Example of a simple game: A fighting game where you just mash the buttons and the game does the combos for you
Example of a complex game: A fighting game where you have to input the combos manually.
Well, your fighting game analogy isn't really valid, since I'm not arguing for automation, but rather purity and simplicity in the gaming experience. It's good that you think all that, though. I mean, the game market is going to bear my side of this argument out, so you'll either adapt to a style of play that's based on how you think and not how many enemies you can repetatively kill/items you can horde/number of times you can mechanically perform a combo/etc. or you'll stop gaming altogether, but it's good that you have convictions.
JimmieMac
04-05-2004, 04:11 PM
Least he wasn't STABBED to death by PHIL SPECTER
Least he wasn't STABBED to death by PHIL SPECTER
Ion Storm has neither confirmed nor denied that, actually.
oneirotekt
04-05-2004, 04:15 PM
Scrubking, one thing you might be forgetting is that complexity also doesn't mean *depth*. You can have relatively few options in a game yet the combinations of those options, in different contexts, create a lot of possibilities even though there's not a lot of up-front complexity. Go is easily the best example of this - it has only one piece to chess's six and its rules are considerably less complicated, but its emergent complexity arguably surpasses that of chess. They're both godlike games; one gains depth through elegance and the other through more complex, interconnected rules.
I think we can all agree though that making a game simpler, and more importantly more SHALLOW, because you think your audience is stupid, is a bad move and I certainly don't hope that trend continues.
I reeeally hope Eidos doesn't somehow manage to ruin ION but things are starting to look that way. I blame a lot of DX2's problems on its tight development schedule - 2 years for an essentially new engine AND an epic RPG?!? With DX1 they made minimal modifications to the first-gen Unreal engine and *still* had to cut stuff out.
Great hearing people talk about game design! I'm a hardcore indie designer myself and it's basically all I think about :)
msdmoney
04-05-2004, 04:21 PM
Wait, I thought DE:IW was supposed to be good. I played it and it was more than fairly decent. Anyway, explain more of what the guy that got fired did for the company please.
Well, he'd generally come in at least fifteen minutes late, ah, he'd use the side door--that way Spector couldn't see him, heh--after that he'd sorta space out for an hour. He'd just stare at his desk, but it looked like he was working. He'd do that for probably another hour after lunch too, I'd say in a given week he'd probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work. :lol:
CaseyRyback
04-05-2004, 04:24 PM
Since you don't seem to understand what I am saying I will repeat for the very last time.
1. Games don't have to be dumbed down to work on consoles
2. Complex games can sell just as well as simple games
3. Complexity does not equal difficulty
4. Complex games offer players more options than simple games.
Example of a simple game: A fighting game where you just mash the buttons and the game does the combos for you
Example of a complex game: A fighting game where you have to input the combos manually.
I agree with Scrubking all the way on this one. NVN is not a complex game. DX(the first) is not a complex game. If you sit and play it for an hour things become second nature. The only thing complex about these games is the way you want to play them as a person. These games though do reqire more keys as inventory management and other attributes can not be done with a controller(I know DX came out for the PS2, and I have never played it but the inventory system had to awful)
The most complex games are the ones that are pick up and play(like fighting games as Scrubking pointed out). Sure someone with no skill may get lucky, but the person with skill who has mastered the moves and knows how to do the combos is going to win more often than not.
Also the point was brought up that IW ranked around the same as DX. Granted it did, but sometimes the most revolutionary and best games of all time get crapped on score wise(Shenmue is an easy example right off the top of my head).
Scrubking
04-05-2004, 04:28 PM
Since you don't seem to understand what I am saying I will repeat for the very last time.
1. Games don't have to be dumbed down to work on consoles
2. Complex games can sell just as well as simple games
3. Complexity does not equal difficulty
4. Complex games offer players more options than simple games.
Example of a simple game: A fighting game where you just mash the buttons and the game does the combos for you
Example of a complex game: A fighting game where you have to input the combos manually.
Well, your fighting game analogy isn't really valid, since I'm not arguing for automation, but rather purity and simplicity in the gaming experience. It's good that you think all that, though. I mean, the game market is going to bear my side of this argument out, so you'll either adapt to a style of play that's based on how you think and not how many enemies you can repetatively kill/items you can horde/number of times you can mechanically perform a combo/etc. or you'll stop gaming altogether, but it's good that you have convictions.
Your patronizing tone is hilarious!
And my example is the crux of the matter within the context of this thread, or did you just come in here to argue philosophy without even looking at the context of the thread?
Here is another example. IS took out weapon reloading from IW thus simplifying the game, thus taking away a players option to reload when he wants to rather than when the game wants to.
Simplification = no reloading = 1 less gameplay option for the gamer
And the whole "I'm right cause the industry is behind me" is nonsense. Everyone knows that the industry is trying to simplify games more and more. In fact ISA wants to turn games into mini movies with less player interaction and only a few hours of play time.
The above does not change the fact that:
complexity = more gameplay options
and
Simplicity = less gameplay options
That is the argument here so get with the program or stop posting.
A few more points:
1. God, I love having rational discourse here. On Gamefaqs I don't believe this would be possible.
2. I'm not arguing for simplicity in the game. I'm saying that the interface doesn't need to be be complicated. Menus and stats and even button presses/keystrokes are products of imperfect hardware, not good game design. Imagine a future of gaming where interaction with the game world is as seamless as the real world in your day to day life. It wouldn't have to sacrifice options and flexibility to be easy to play.
Osh Kosh B'iotch
04-05-2004, 05:00 PM
That is the argument here so get with the program or stop posting.
Sheesh, lighten up!
Since you don't seem to understand what I am saying I will repeat for the very last time.
1. Games don't have to be dumbed down to work on consoles
2. Complex games can sell just as well as simple games
3. Complexity does not equal difficulty
4. Complex games offer players more options than simple games.
Example of a simple game: A fighting game where you just mash the buttons and the game does the combos for you
Example of a complex game: A fighting game where you have to input the combos manually.
Well, your fighting game analogy isn't really valid, since I'm not arguing for automation, but rather purity and simplicity in the gaming experience. It's good that you think all that, though. I mean, the game market is going to bear my side of this argument out, so you'll either adapt to a style of play that's based on how you think and not how many enemies you can repetatively kill/items you can horde/number of times you can mechanically perform a combo/etc. or you'll stop gaming altogether, but it's good that you have convictions.
Your patronizing tone is hilarious!
And my example is the crux of the matter within the context of this thread, or did you just come in here to argue philosophy without even looking at the context of the thread?
Here is another example. IS took out weapon reloading from IW thus simplifying the game, thus taking away a players option to reload when he wants to rather than when the game wants to.
Simplification = no reloading = 1 less gameplay option for the gamer
And the whole "I'm right cause the industry is behind me" is nonsense. Everyone knows that the industry is trying to simplify games more and more. In fact ISA wants to turn games into mini movies with less player interaction and only a few hours of play time.
The above does not change the fact that:
complexity = more gameplay options
and
Simplicity = less gameplay options
That is the argument here so get with the program or stop posting.
The context of the thread? The context of the thread is the firing of one guy from Ion Storm. Our discussion on gaming theory is completely outside the scope of the original post.
I'd ask for proof of your claim that Ion Storm wants to make movies out of their games and your equations on complexity and simplicity simply aren't true, as it's easily disproved (again, see my point on Chess or Go.)
edit: grammar correction.
Scrubking
04-05-2004, 05:35 PM
I'd ask for proof of your claim that Ion Storm wants to make movies out of their games
http://pc.ign.com/articles/502/502382p1.html?fromint=1
and your equations on complexity and simplicity simply aren't true, as it's easily disproved (again, see my point on Chess or Go.)
edit: grammar correction.
You have yet to disprove my equation, and although I admit it is pretty general is still stands. Simplifiying games removes gameplay options - period.
You can't remove the reloading feature from a game and claim that the game still gives the player the same amount of gameplay options. To say that would be to completely ignore the fact that now the player does not have to think about or engage in tactics that involve reloading their weapon ie ammo management, ammo conservation, best time to reload, etc.
wookieballz
04-05-2004, 05:38 PM
Randy Smith wasn't fired by Warren Spector; he quit.
CaseyRyback
04-05-2004, 05:45 PM
Randy Smith wasn't fired by Warren Spector; he quit.
there is a thin line between someone being fired and quitting. I know my dad has quit many jobs when a boss became a tyrant and started firing everyone
Scrubking
04-05-2004, 05:46 PM
Randy Smith wasn't fired by Warren Spector; he quit.
Unless there is some new news no one really knows since ISA is not saying anything specific. I assume he was fired since I believe Randy would not just quit on his game so close to seeing it realized.
I'd ask for proof of your claim that Ion Storm wants to make movies out of their games
http://pc.ign.com/articles/502/502382p1.html?fromint=1
and your equations on complexity and simplicity simply aren't true, as it's easily disproved (again, see my point on Chess or Go.)
edit: grammar correction.
You have yet to disprove my equation, and although I admit it is pretty general is still stands. Simplifiying games removes gameplay options - period.
You can't remove the reloading feature from a game and claim that the game still gives the player the same amount of gameplay options. To say that would be to completely ignore the fact that now the player does not have to think about or engage in tactics that involve reloading their weapon ie ammo management, ammo conservation, best time to reload, etc.
That article says he wants a strong plot in stories and that there's a fine line between being able to realize that strong plot, but also give the player lots of choice at the same time, not that games should be movies.
Yes, I have disproved your equation, you just don't acknowledge that there there are games out there that have simple rules and techniques, yet at the same time present extremely deep gameplay.
As for reloading, I ask you how that effects the gameplay of IW. How would the game be significantly deeper with the addition of having to press a button to switch a clip instead of being able to fire until you run out of ammo completely?
Scrubking
04-05-2004, 06:11 PM
How would the game be significantly deeper with the addition of having to press a button to switch a clip instead of being able to fire until you run out of ammo completely?
I already answered that, but you chose to ignore it - just like the rest of my points.
How would the game be significantly deeper with the addition of having to press a button to switch a clip instead of being able to fire until you run out of ammo completely?
I already answered that, but you chose to ignore it - just like the rest of my points.
You can't remove the reloading feature from a game and claim that the game still gives the player the same amount of gameplay options. To say that would be to completely ignore the fact that now the player does not have to think about or engage in tactics that involve reloading their weapon ie ammo management, ammo conservation, best time to reload, etc.
The ammo system in IW is essentially one big clip. As such, ammo management and conservation still apply even without reloading. If you're at full ammo you don't want to pick up a clip on the ground if you can save it for later when you're down a charge or two. That would be the same with or without manual reloading.
As for the best time to reload, I don't see how manual reloading would get you anything other than killed more often. It's a subjective point anyway: you like to run to cover regularly to avoid taking hits while you reload; someone else may prefer the ability to stay out in the midst of the action to eliminate the enemy as quickly and efficiently as possible, an ability that not reloading affords them. You might think your approach is better because it's more tactical while they might think theirs is better because it requires quicker "on your feet" decision making. Neither one is inherently deeper or better than the other one.
CaseyRyback
04-06-2004, 10:18 AM
something is up as now Harvey Smith is leaving
http://xbox.gamespy.com/xbox/deus-ex-invisible-war/504144p1.html
BTW yes they did stick the interview in the Xbox section
daphatty
04-06-2004, 11:57 AM
Wow. All this about a crappy game developer.
PsyClerk
04-06-2004, 03:14 PM
Harvey Smith sounds like he needs to lay off the hard drugs.
Scrubking
04-06-2004, 03:18 PM
Harvey Smith sounds like he needs to lay off the hard drugs.
LOL
I agree.
punqsux
04-06-2004, 03:25 PM
Wow. All this about a crappy game developer.
yeah, you must miss getting 3do news huh?
Firebrand
04-06-2004, 04:05 PM
Games that are ostensibly simple in nature can be the most complex and rewarding of all. Don't be fooled by endless menus and options, for these can mask a very simple game.
By someone's flawed logic, most of Nintendo's games would suck simply because there aren't very many options in them. Play the games, feel the depth.
Scrubking
04-06-2004, 07:02 PM
By someone's flawed logic, most of Nintendo's games would suck simply because there aren't very many options in them.
:roll:
I love how people twist my argument into some kind of bullshit. You people really need to stop listening through your ass. Just the fact that you people won't get off the "options" issue in light of my other examples and points shows how dense you people are.
Simple games in and of themselves are not bad, but when you weight simplicity vs. complexity, complex games are better because they offer more gameplay options to the player. Both kind of games are capable of being fun and good, and both are capable of being boring and bad - it's up to how the developer puts the game together.
And for you morons, complexity is far more than just a damn options menu so pull your heads out of your asses and pay attention to what I am saying.
dcfox
04-06-2004, 07:21 PM
I guess what people are confusing is what exactly about the game is complex. A game with a simple presentation can still be complex. The best example I can come up with is trying to read a book like the Iliad or the Odyssey. Reading it in the original greek can be more pleasurable to those who know greek but translating it into English doesn't take away from the complexity of the story.
Scrubking
04-06-2004, 07:27 PM
My points are about GAMEPLAY, not about story, graphics,etc.
So if you pick up a game and like the story and want to say that it is deep and complex, fine, but I am talking about GAMEPLAY.
By someone's flawed logic, most of Nintendo's games would suck simply because there aren't very many options in them.
:roll:
I love how people twist my argument into some kind of bullshit. You people really need to stop listening through your ass. Just the fact that you people won't get off the "options" issue in light of my other examples and points shows how dense you people are.
Simple games in and of themselves are not bad, but when you weight simplicity vs. complexity, complex games are better because they offer more gameplay options to the player. Both kind of games are capable of being fun and good, and both are capable of being boring and bad - it's up to how the developer puts the game together.
And for you morons, complexity is far more than just a damn options menu so pull your heads out of your asses and pay attention to what I am saying.
Oh good, you've moved to insults, now I can discount your already laughable opinion on the subject.
Scrubking
04-06-2004, 07:44 PM
By someone's flawed logic, most of Nintendo's games would suck simply because there aren't very many options in them.
:roll:
I love how people twist my argument into some kind of bullshit. You people really need to stop listening through your ass. Just the fact that you people won't get off the "options" issue in light of my other examples and points shows how dense you people are.
Simple games in and of themselves are not bad, but when you weight simplicity vs. complexity, complex games are better because they offer more gameplay options to the player. Both kind of games are capable of being fun and good, and both are capable of being boring and bad - it's up to how the developer puts the game together.
And for you morons, complexity is far more than just a damn options menu so pull your heads out of your asses and pay attention to what I am saying.
Oh good, you've moved to insults, now I can discount your already laughable opinion on the subject.
Like I give a fuck! :D
And for the record you have been nothing but an arrogant ass completely closed minded to my argument - evidenced by your own admission above so don't pretend that you are just now not going to stop listening. And only a fool would discount someone's view because of the manner in which it was relayed. You may not like it, but it doesn't mean they are wrong.
Scrubking
04-06-2004, 07:49 PM
This is my last example for those smart enough to understand it.
Which version of Action bill would you prefer? This is a totally made up game.
Simple Version A, where you just side scroll shooting bad guys and fight bosses.
or
Complex Version B, where you side scroll AND jump AND switch weapons, AND switch ammo types and shoot bad guys and fight bosses.
It should be clear that the more complex version is better since it offers more gameplay options.
Have a nice day.
wookieballz
04-06-2004, 08:05 PM
"Unless there is some new news no one really knows since ISA is not saying anything specific. I assume he was fired since I believe Randy would not just quit on his game so close to seeing it realized."
http://xbox.gamespy.com/xbox/deus-ex-invisible-war/504144p1.html
His interview at GameSpy indicated that he quit, and that his departure wasn't (directly, at least) Warren Spector's doing.
Side note: Goddamn, this post was typo-city...and I only wrote one sentence!
jrutz
04-06-2004, 08:26 PM
Yes, I have disproved your equation, you just don't acknowledge that there there are games out there that have simple rules and techniques, yet at the same time present extremely deep gameplay.
As for reloading, I ask you how that effects the gameplay of IW. How would the game be significantly deeper with the addition of having to press a button to switch a clip instead of being able to fire until you run out of ammo completely?
Tetris anyone? :P
And if manual reloading made a game great, then go down to the arcade and play all the House of the Dead you want. I'll take DX:IW any day.
You have to remember, Scrubking, there is a fine line between being a fanboy and designing games that a lot of people want to buy (i.e., making a profit on investment). There is such a thing as simplifying techniques while rewarding the gamer with complex gameplay. As far as first person shooters are concerned, look at Goldeneye and Halo, two games which were "simplified" for console gamers yet are regarded as the two best FPS titles ever for the console market.
EDIT: GameSpot interview with HS up:
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/04/06/news_6092978.html
Looks like the parting was on good terms. He seems like a real wack job! :roll:
Jeremy
Firebrand
04-06-2004, 08:57 PM
This is my last example for those smart enough to understand it.
Which version of Action bill would you prefer? This is a totally made up game.
Simple Version A, where you just side scroll shooting bad guys and fight bosses.
or
Complex Version B, where you side scroll AND jump AND switch weapons, AND switch ammo types and shoot bad guys and fight bosses.
It should be clear that the more complex version is better since it offers more gameplay options.
Have a nice day.
You think much too highly of yourself and your flawed arguments, and to top things off, you resort to insulting people when your arguments are smashed to pieces.
Complexity doesn't make games better. Better level design and superior gameplay mechanics, etc...these are the things that can make better games.
A solid game of Tetris Attack (or any Tetris game for that matter) can make you appeciate the depth a seemingly simplistic game can provide. Depth isn't exclusive to complex games. That seems to be your argument, more or less. It has been shot down. Perhaps Simple Version A has a superior gameplay mechanic, or better level design?
CaseyRyback
04-06-2004, 09:53 PM
Yes, I have disproved your equation, you just don't acknowledge that there there are games out there that have simple rules and techniques, yet at the same time present extremely deep gameplay.
As for reloading, I ask you how that effects the gameplay of IW. How would the game be significantly deeper with the addition of having to press a button to switch a clip instead of being able to fire until you run out of ammo completely?
Tetris anyone? :P
And if manual reloading made a game great, then go down to the arcade and play all the House of the Dead you want. I'll take DX:IW any day.
You have to remember, Scrubking, there is a fine line between being a fanboy and designing games that a lot of people want to buy (i.e., making a profit on investment). There is such a thing as simplifying techniques while rewarding the gamer with complex gameplay. As far as first person shooters are concerned, look at Goldeneye and Halo, two games which were "simplified" for console gamers yet are regarded as the two best FPS titles ever for the console market.
EDIT: GameSpot interview with HS up:
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/04/06/news_6092978.html
Looks like the parting was on good terms. He seems like a real wack job! :roll:
Jeremy
Halo was a rushed hack job of a game for a platform that needed something that would sell games. I like the game, but placing it in the elite catagory of being one of the greatest of all time is wrong. Goldeneye was good at the time, but does not hold up. I am not a graphics whore but playing a game with one control stick in teh FP perspective blows.
NOLF 2, and UT(entire series) come to mind as much superior games.
Lets just face it. Warren Spector wanted to be like Liz Phair. Both betrayed the auidences to try and get the big dollars and failed miserably
jrutz
04-07-2004, 08:56 AM
The hardcore gamers thing they are the industry's target audience. What they fail to realize is that they are not - the mass, or casual, gamer is who the industry is targeting.
Make a game too complex and you've just eliminated a few hundred thousand potential customers. Games might be developed for the lowest common denominator (casual gamers), but that doesn't mean the games themselves have to suffer. It is the zen of game design when a title can be as complicated as the gamer wants it to be.
What people also fail to realize is Warren Spector works for a company who depends on profit to survive. His job is to make games that will sell, and in order to do that he needs to target the mass market. In the case of DX:IW, it still received high praise by the gaming press. It just didn't sell as well as projected because it was released late in the holiday season. In that sense, he didn't betray anyone.
Jeremy
oneirotekt
04-07-2004, 01:26 PM
Scrubking:
Take an existing design that is successful. Tetris Attack. Add more gameplay options - say, the ability to switch tiles vertically as well as horizontally.
Add an extra piece to Chess, or an extra move to the rook's vocabulary.
Add three extra weapons to Quake.
Is the result a better game?
Intrakitt
04-09-2004, 06:15 PM
Wait, I thought DE:IW was supposed to be good. I played it and it was more than fairly decent. Anyway, explain more of what the guy that got fired did for the company please.
Well, he'd generally come in at least fifteen minutes late, ah, he'd use the side door--that way Spector couldn't see him, heh--after that he'd sorta space out for an hour. He'd just stare at his desk, but it looked like he was working. He'd do that for probably another hour after lunch too, I'd say in a given week he'd probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work.
hahah what a great movie :)
Intrakitt
04-09-2004, 06:18 PM
On the subject: After they crapped out the newest Deus Ex and ruined my hopes for another good Deus Ex game I'm probably not going to get the next Thief in fear of it succumbing to the same fate.
I loved these games dearly from day one. Deus Ex was so much fun, and I had many nights of Thiefing fun with the originals.