Morality...

[Kayden]

Its a well known fact that some of our favorite older games are becoming quite costly...

So... where to do yous stand on the issue of copies? Do you think we should be forced to pay 100+ for games we might not even like? Do you think emulators and mod chips are ok when used for games that are unreasonably priced on ebay?

[polaricecaves]

or just out of print

[evilmax17]

It depends. I have absolutely no qualms with somebody downloading or obtaining a burned copy of Suikoden 2 to play it. Yeah yeah legality whatever, I shouldn't have to pay some eBay gouger $200 to experience a game. If the game company is no longer receiving a proffit from it's sale, then game on.

But if you're downloading Splinter Cell or something, then you got trouble.

[dcfox]

Why are you going around buying $100 games that you might not like in the first place?

I think using emulators and copies of games are okay if you have the game but don't want to damage it. But using emulators to play games so you don't have to fork over the money for it is not so much immoral but wrong in some sense.

[dtcarson]

Define "unreasonably priced."
It's all relative.
To me 150 bucks for Super Bowl tickets is *way* "unreasonably priced," does that mean I can get them for free, if I counterfeited them and didn't steal someone elses seat?
No one is 'forcing' you to buy anything.
Ebay charges what the market will bear. Pirating/copying super-rare Suikoden II versus brand-new game NFL2k5 is the exact same thing, the only difference is the dollar limit before you turn into a pirate.

[Kayden]

Why are you going around buying $100 games that you might not like in the first place?

I think using emulators and copies of games are okay if you have the game but don't want to damage it. But using emulators to play games so you don't have to fork over the money for it is not so much immoral but wrong in some sense.

The last person I thought would speak up on morals... =)

So you're saying we should pay double retail for a used game that the original creator stopped making and will not see any profit from?

[javeryh]

If the game company is no longer receiving a proffit from it's sale, then game on.

This is exactly my POV.

[polaricecaves]

as soon as information is created it's up for grabs

[Kayden]

Define "unreasonably priced."
It's all relative.
To me 150 bucks for Super Bowl tickets is *way* "unreasonably priced," does that mean I can get them for free, if I counterfeited them and didn't steal someone elses seat?
No one is 'forcing' you to buy anything.

but they still make super bowl tickets... and you can watch it for free at home...

They don't make Star Ocean 2, Suikoden 1&2, Chrono Trigger, and all those anymore...

[MaxBiaggi3]

Nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.

[dtcarson]

Seller sells item for X$.
Buyer is willing to pay Y$.
If X <= Y, then a sale may occur.
If X > Y, the sale probably doesn't occur. That doesn't mean it's okay to pirate the item.
Heck, Shadow Hearts was sold out everywhere except on Ebay for a bit there, does that mean it's okay to pirate it? World of Warcraft was sold out, I guess I can copy away.

You should pay whatever a game is worth to you, that you can get it for.

Polaricecaves: Okay. Send me your most recent term papers, and any creative writing you've written ever. Any game reviews you've written as well. Don't worry, I'll pay you--nothing.

[dtcarson]

Define "unreasonably priced."
It's all relative.
To me 150 bucks for Super Bowl tickets is *way* "unreasonably priced," does that mean I can get them for free, if I counterfeited them and didn't steal someone elses seat?
No one is 'forcing' you to buy anything.

but they still make super bowl tickets... and you can watch it for free at home...

They don't make Star Ocean 2, Suikoden 1&2, Chrono Trigger, and all those anymore...

No, but I could buy them. Regardless of who gets the money.

And they don't make $10,000 bills anymore, so it's okay to counterfeit them?

[Kayden]

So you two think its ok for people on Ebay to charge both arms and legs?

[rockhero]

If someone makes something, and you decide that you need to have it, then you should pay for it.

[dtcarson]

Why the hell not? You don't have to pay it, and if no one pays an arm and a leg, either the item won't sell, or the price will eventually go down. Personally I think 50 bucks is too much to pay for Madden 2005, but that doesnt' stop someone from buying it.

Kurt Cobain is dead. Since he was an integral part of Nirvana, and is no longer profiting from the music, does that mean it's okay for me to pirate all the Nirvana MP3s I want? How about Elvis? Or the written works of Shakespeare, Dickens, TS Eliot?

[dcfox]

Define "unreasonably priced."
It's all relative.
To me 150 bucks for Super Bowl tickets is *way* "unreasonably priced," does that mean I can get them for free, if I counterfeited them and didn't steal someone elses seat?
No one is 'forcing' you to buy anything.

but they still make super bowl tickets... and you can watch it for free at home...

They don't make Star Ocean 2, Suikoden 1&2, Chrono Trigger, and all those anymore...

Using a similar example, what if I wanted to go to a concert but it was sold out. Somebody was auctioning off tickets at double the price. Should I pay the extra cash to buy the tickets or would it be alright if I just snuck in or used a counterfeit ticket?

[evilmax17]

I don't think we're argueing legality here. If a corporate attourney was present in your living room as you downloaded Suikoden II, and then watched you burn it and play it on your PSX, you'd most assuredly be prosecuted.

That isn't the issue here.

We're talking about videogames, more specifically ones that can no longer be obtained from retail markets. Who gets hurt if I play a burned copy of a rare game? The greedy eBay seller trying to make a huge profit (and you know what, that doesn't bother me at all). We're not talking about money, and we're not talking about superbowl tickets. We're talking about being gamers, and not wanting to pay $200 to experience a game that originally retailed for $50 (and probably could be found for cheaper).

Is it illegal? Yes, certainly. But is it morally objectionable? That's up to you, but I certainly don't think so.

[Kayden]

Define "unreasonably priced."
It's all relative.
To me 150 bucks for Super Bowl tickets is *way* "unreasonably priced," does that mean I can get them for free, if I counterfeited them and didn't steal someone elses seat?
No one is 'forcing' you to buy anything.

but they still make super bowl tickets... and you can watch it for free at home...

They don't make Star Ocean 2, Suikoden 1&2, Chrono Trigger, and all those anymore...

No, but I could buy them. Regardless of who gets the money.

And they don't make $10,000 bills anymore, so it's okay to counterfeit them?

Thats a little different... Forging government bills and copying a video game are very disimilar...

If you're going to counterfit money that generally means you plan on spending it. If you're not, I'm sure there are places that sell licenced knockoffs for a dollar or two...

If you copy an out of print game for personal use you aren't really hurting the company or the economy. If you were going to sell the copies for personal gain, that would be a no no, though.

[Kayden]

Why the hell not? You don't have to pay it, and if no one pays an arm and a leg, either the item won't sell, or the price will eventually go down. Personally I think 50 bucks is too much to pay for Madden 2005, but that doesnt' stop someone from buying it.

Kurt Cobain is dead. Since he was an integral part of Nirvana, and is no longer profiting from the music, does that mean it's okay for me to pirate all the Nirvana MP3s I want? How about Elvis? Or the written works of Shakespeare, Dickens, TS Eliot?

Think a little first, please. Their works are still in production... You can walk into almost any walmart or target and find a new Elvis CD.

Hell, Tupac is dead and hes still making new albums.

You don't have to worry about paying $5000 for an original pressing or many many thousands for an original print of a 200 year old book... These items are still being produced.

[dtcarson]

not wanting to pay $200 to experience a game that originally retailed for $50 (and probably could be found for cheaper).
.

Here's the key phrase, and what makes it into an issue of morality. BY saying this, you are saying it's preferred to make an illegal copy of a game so that you can benefit, because you're too cheap to pay whatever is being asked for it. If it's worth pirating, it's worth trying to buy. Plus I've always found you get more enjoyment out of something you have to work for, rather than something that is easily-gotten or ill-gotten.

Regardless of 'whom it hurts'. Some people have morals whether or not someone is harmed by them. No one is hurt by paying 200 bucks for Suikoden 2 either.

Please clarify:
" Who gets hurt if I play a burned copy of a rare game? The greedy eBay seller trying to make a huge profit (and you know what, that doesn't bother me at all). "

Do you mean it doesnt' bother you if the 'greedy Ebay seller' gets 'hurt'? or it doesn't bother you that he's trying to make a huge profit?

If the latter: Why is everyone so against making a profit? If you had an item you paid 20 bucks for, and you could sell it easily for 100, wouldn't you do it? How is he greedy? If wanting to maximize your profit *by charging what the market will bear*, since it takes a buyer and a seller to make a transaction, is greedy, then color me greedy.

I can see a sort of fuzzy area if you were to, say, download a ROM and play it on an emulator for a couple days to see if the game was something you'd like, then decide to buy or not buy. That's probably technically still illegal, but in the end, if you buy or not buy and delete the rom, you are doing both the moral thing and the wise thing [for your wallet]. Anything else is simply an admission that "I'm a cheap bastard and don't want to pay what the seller is asking."

[Kayden]

Define "unreasonably priced."
It's all relative.
To me 150 bucks for Super Bowl tickets is *way* "unreasonably priced," does that mean I can get them for free, if I counterfeited them and didn't steal someone elses seat?
No one is 'forcing' you to buy anything.

but they still make super bowl tickets... and you can watch it for free at home...

They don't make Star Ocean 2, Suikoden 1&2, Chrono Trigger, and all those anymore...

Using a similar example, what if I wanted to go to a concert but it was sold out. Somebody was auctioning off tickets at double the price. Should I pay the extra cash to buy the tickets or would it be alright if I just snuck in or used a counterfeit ticket?

Concerts usually have multiple playing areas, KISS went around the country like 18 times before they buggered off...

But even if you miss the very last concert, you can still probably buy a boot leg copy of it, or get their CD at Kmart for $15.

Missing a concert is grounds for pirating because there are still reasonably priced alternatives. Its not like theyre going to stop making concerts after that one....

[polaricecaves]

everything i've ever made I've kept for myself

If i were to "Release" something, it takes on a life of its own

now that we have the internet the information is out there and it isn't what it started as.. just 1s and 0s now

[dtcarson]

Your arguments vary:
first it's 'The original creator no longer profits.' I believe I've proven that argument is fallacious.
then it's 'No one else is hurt.' Some things are wrong even if no one's hurt.
all that remains is 'The price that's being asked is more than I want to pay' to which my response is very fatherly: If it's worth it to you, save your money and buy it. if it's not, don't.

"Forging government bills and copying a video game"

Not really, no. In each case you are copying something that has a value, that is no longer being created. If you copy and spend a 10k bill, who does that harm? Assuming you don't get caught, no one. Seller gets a bill, you get stuff when you use it. How is that different? [apart from,of course, the obvious federal anti-counterfeiting laws.]

[dtcarson]

everything i've ever made I've kept for myself

If i were to "Release" something, it takes on a life of its own

now that we have the internet the information is out there and it isn't what it started as.. just 1s and 0s now

Now that we have paper, it isn't what it started as, it's all just A through Z now.

[Kayden]

Not everyone has $200 for a game that originally retailed for $50. There are a lot of rich people... but, surprisingly... not everyone has $200 that they can just toss down on a game. And by being too cheap to pay what is asked... What is being asked is 4 times retail value... You don't think thats rediculous?

not wanting to pay $200 to experience a game that originally retailed for $50 (and probably could be found for cheaper).
.

Here's the key phrase, and what makes it into an issue of morality. BY saying this, you are saying it's preferred to make an illegal copy of a game so that you can benefit, because you're too cheap to pay whatever is being asked for it. If it's worth pirating, it's worth trying to buy. Plus I've always found you get more enjoyment out of something you have to work for, rather than something that is easily-gotten or ill-gotten.

Regardless of 'whom it hurts'. Some people have morals whether or not someone is harmed by them. No one is hurt by paying 200 bucks for Suikoden 2 either.

Please clarify:
" Who gets hurt if I play a burned copy of a rare game? The greedy eBay seller trying to make a huge profit (and you know what, that doesn't bother me at all). "

Do you mean it doesnt' bother you if the 'greedy Ebay seller' gets 'hurt'? or it doesn't bother you that he's trying to make a huge profit?

If the latter: Why is everyone so against making a profit? If you had an item you paid 20 bucks for, and you could sell it easily for 100, wouldn't you do it? How is he greedy? If wanting to maximize your profit *by charging what the market will bear*, since it takes a buyer and a seller to make a transaction, is greedy, then color me greedy.

I can see a sort of fuzzy area if you were to, say, download a ROM and play it on an emulator for a couple days to see if the game was something you'd like, then decide to buy or not buy. That's probably technically still illegal, but in the end, if you buy or not buy and delete the rom, you are doing both the moral thing and the wise thing [for your wallet]. Anything else is simply an admission that "I'm a cheap bastard and don't want to pay what the seller is asking."

[dtcarson]

Let me ask this:

If Suikoden II [for example] was a game you were interested in, and it cost 5.00, mint, shipped on Ebay [or anywhere else], would you buy it?

If Suikoden II was a game you were interested in, and it cost 200.00, mint, shipped on Ebay [or anywhere else], would you buy it? If not, would you pirate it?

Actually, I would think you'd *support* things like ebay. 10-15 years ago, if you wanted a 'rare' game, you've have to travel to conventions, put out ads, look for ads, etc. Now it's relatively easy to find virtually anything--if you're willing to pay the price. Which is the way it is in most cases.

[dcfox]

Define "unreasonably priced."
It's all relative.
To me 150 bucks for Super Bowl tickets is *way* "unreasonably priced," does that mean I can get them for free, if I counterfeited them and didn't steal someone elses seat?
No one is 'forcing' you to buy anything.

but they still make super bowl tickets... and you can watch it for free at home...

They don't make Star Ocean 2, Suikoden 1&2, Chrono Trigger, and all those anymore...

Using a similar example, what if I wanted to go to a concert but it was sold out. Somebody was auctioning off tickets at double the price. Should I pay the extra cash to buy the tickets or would it be alright if I just snuck in or used a counterfeit ticket?

Concerts usually have multiple playing areas, KISS went around the country like 18 times before they buggered off...

But even if you miss the very last concert, you can still probably buy a boot leg copy of it, or get their CD at Kmart for $15.

Missing a concert is grounds for pirating because there are still reasonably priced alternatives. Its not like theyre going to stop making concerts after that one....

Buying a cd doesn't recreate the experience of being at the concert. Thats like reading a review of a game instead of playing it. And saying that they're not going to stop having concerts is like me saying they're not going to stop making games. If you want to play Suikoden II but don't want to fork over the money, go play something made by the same developer or something similar.

And your argument that pirating out of print games doesn't hurt anybody isn't exactly true either. Don't forget that retailers such as eb, gamestop, BB, FYE are in the used game market. If you pirate Suikoden II then thats' one less person who will go out and buy Suikoden II from eb. Less sales = less profits= hurting somebody.

[evilmax17]

Here's the key phrase, and what makes it into an issue of morality. BY saying this, you are saying it's preferred to make an illegal copy of a game so that you can benefit, because you're too cheap to pay whatever is being asked for it. If it's worth pirating, it's worth trying to buy. Plus I've always found you get more enjoyment out of something you have to work for, rather than something that is easily-gotten or ill-gotten.

Agreed, if it were still available in a retail store. I think of "buying" as buying it from a retail store (who had previously bought it from the company). In my mind, the only negative thing about videogame piracy is that it takes money away from the industry (thus hindering future game development), and that doesn't happen if you buy it from somebody on eBay.


Regardless of 'whom it hurts'. Some people have morals whether or not someone is harmed by them. No one is hurt by paying 200 bucks for Suikoden 2 either.

Please clarify:
" Who gets hurt if I play a burned copy of a rare game? The greedy eBay seller trying to make a huge profit (and you know what, that doesn't bother me at all). "

Do you mean it doesnt' bother you if the 'greedy Ebay seller' gets 'hurt'? or it doesn't bother you that he's trying to make a huge profit?

If the latter: Why is everyone so against making a profit? If you had an item you paid 20 bucks for, and you could sell it easily for 100, wouldn't you do it? How is he greedy? If wanting to maximize your profit *by charging what the market will bear*, since it takes a buyer and a seller to make a transaction, is greedy, then color me greedy.


I meant that I didn't care if it hurt the eBay seller. The seller isn't in the videogame industry, and the future of the industry isn't affected AT ALL by independent eBay sales. In terms of "hurting" this seller, you aren't even really doing that. As people have said "if you don't want to pay that much for it, then don't", so I'm not. If I downloaded a rom of Suikoden II (the example I like using in this situation), I'm not even hurting the eBay seller (because I wasn't going to pay that much for it anyway).

I'm not against making a profit either. If I found a sealed copy of Suikoden II in some Mom and Pop shop, you can damn well bet that it would be on eBay that night. But by the same token, I would know that the person buying my game would either be a collector or a "sucker". I wouldn't want people to pity me if I couldn't sell my game for rediculous profit, and I would rather not get paid and have more people experience the game than otherwise.

[Kayden]

Your arguments vary:
first it's 'The original creator no longer profits.' I believe I've proven that argument is fallacious.

Huh? How? How have you proven that Working Designs profits when a used copy of Lunar 2 sells for $150?


"Forging government bills and copying a video game"

Not really, no. In each case you are copying something that has a value, that is no longer being created. If you copy and spend a 10k bill, who does that harm? Assuming you don't get caught, no one. Seller gets a bill, you get stuff when you use it. How is that different? [apart from,of course, the obvious federal anti-counterfeiting laws.]

If you want to get technical, the entire population is hurt. That influx of money will cause inflation, granted, 10k is a drop in the bucket. However, if you got away with it once, I'm sure someone would try again. Also, how long could that bill be passed before its found to be fake? Someone will get hurt because they exchanged 10k of goods and services for funny money.

If you copy a PSX game for your own personal use, the only persont hat gets 'hurt' would be the ebayer charging 10X what he probably paid for it.

[fragmanslayer]

One could argue a bootleg is like renting a game. When you are done with it, destroy it. If you want to play/own the original, buy it. I dont see a problem with playing bootlegs if 1) no one is making a profit 2) its a temporary fix 3) one buys games to support more good games (eventually if everyone stops buying videogames, there will be no new games)

Take this example. You buy a game. Copy said game. Trade said game. You are supporting the industry by the initial purchase. You lose money by trading it = no profit. You have a copy of the game should you want to play it again. Similar to renting a game from megaripoffrentalbuster, except you arent paying to play the game at an outrageous rental fee.

[dtcarson]

Not everyone has $200 for a game that originally retailed for $50. There are a lot of rich people... but, surprisingly... not everyone has $200 that they can just toss down on a game. And by being too cheap to pay what is asked... What is being asked is 4 times retail value... You don't think thats rediculous?

[

Not at all. I've seen people pay 40-80k for a car that had a 'retail value' of 20k. While I wouldn't do it, I have no problem with them doing it. I myself paid close to 200,000 two years ago for a bunch of wood, metal and wires. I didn't 'toss it down', I saved some and financed the rest because what I purchased was worth it to me. That item was probably 30k more than it's 'retail value,' so according to you, I should have offered to only pay retail value.
It doesn't matter what 'retail value' is, once you're out of the retail market. All that matters is Buyer's willingness to buy and Seller's asking price. That's capitalism. If the item is important to you, you should have either bought it when it was MSRP, or save up for it.

I also don't have a problem with being too cheap to pay what is asked. I don't buy soft drinks at restaurants, I'm not going to pay 1.75 for .12 worth of Mt Dew. That's the beauty of being a consumer, we can choose what is worth it to us to buy. But I also don't ask them to refill my own cup that I brought..

Let's say my next door neighbour has a wireless broadband connection. Why, 45 bucks is way too much for me to spend on internet. Is it moral, okay, correct, for me to wirelessly jack in to his connection? After all, I'm not downloading huge files, no one's getting hurt except the big bad cable company, who's trying to make that evil Profit.

[Kayden]

Let me ask this:

If Suikoden II [for example] was a game you were interested in, and it cost 5.00, mint, shipped on Ebay [or anywhere else], would you buy it?

If Suikoden II was a game you were interested in, and it cost 200.00, mint, shipped on Ebay [or anywhere else], would you buy it? If not, would you pirate it?

Actually, I would think you'd *support* things like ebay. 10-15 years ago, if you wanted a 'rare' game, you've have to travel to conventions, put out ads, look for ads, etc. Now it's relatively easy to find virtually anything--if you're willing to pay the price. Which is the way it is in most cases.

Not really valid for me, I picked my Suikoden II for $15 at target years ago.
As for the price difference, there are few things I'd pay 200 for. And if the only place I could find it was one were it was grossly overpriced, hell yes I would get a free copy for me only...

[dtcarson]

Here's the key phrase, and what makes it into an issue of morality. BY saying this, you are saying it's preferred to make an illegal copy of a game so that you can benefit, because you're too cheap to pay whatever is being asked for it. If it's worth pirating, it's worth trying to buy. Plus I've always found you get more enjoyment out of something you have to work for, rather than something that is easily-gotten or ill-gotten.

Agreed, if it were still available in a retail store. I think of "buying" as buying it from a retail store (who had previously bought it from the company). In my mind, the only negative thing about videogame piracy is that it takes money away from the industry (thus hindering future game development), and that doesn't happen if you buy it from somebody on eBay.


Regardless of 'whom it hurts'. Some people have morals whether or not someone is harmed by them. No one is hurt by paying 200 bucks for Suikoden 2 either.

Please clarify:
" Who gets hurt if I play a burned copy of a rare game? The greedy eBay seller trying to make a huge profit (and you know what, that doesn't bother me at all). "

Do you mean it doesnt' bother you if the 'greedy Ebay seller' gets 'hurt'? or it doesn't bother you that he's trying to make a huge profit?

If the latter: Why is everyone so against making a profit? If you had an item you paid 20 bucks for, and you could sell it easily for 100, wouldn't you do it? How is he greedy? If wanting to maximize your profit *by charging what the market will bear*, since it takes a buyer and a seller to make a transaction, is greedy, then color me greedy.


I meant that I didn't care if it hurt the eBay seller. The seller isn't in the videogame industry, and the future of the industry isn't affected AT ALL by independent eBay sales. In terms of "hurting" this seller, you aren't even really doing that. As people have said "if you don't want to pay that much for it, then don't", so I'm not. If I downloaded a rom of Suikoden II (the example I like using in this situation), I'm not even hurting the eBay seller (because I wasn't going to pay that much for it anyway).

I'm not against making a profit either. If I found a sealed copy of Suikoden II in some Mom and Pop shop, you can damn well bet that it would be on eBay that night. But by the same token, I would know that the person buying my game would either be a collector or a "sucker". I wouldn't want people to pity me if I couldn't sell my game for rediculous profit, and I would rather not get paid and have more people experience the game than otherwise.

But that seller on Ebay, that money he was going to get from selling his copy of the game, perhaps he would buy three more games with it, or put it in his kid's college account, or take his family out to dinner with. Now he can't because you pirated the game and no longer wanted to buy it. No one's hurt?
Oh, so if you found the game, you'd be the evil seller charging 4x retail?
Who ever mentioned pity? I don't pity an ebay seller for not making a sale, I'm saying if piracy is the reason he's not making a sale, the piracy is wrong [and not just because of him not making a sale, but because piracy is wrong.]

So basically you're okay with pirating stuff, if the price of the stuff is more than you're willing to pay. Got it.

[Kayden]

Ok... I think you're arguing this into the realm of what-the-hell-are-you-thinking territory..
Its a house... a FREAKING HOUSE... You can't pirate a house... Are you going to ebay a house from Hong Kong only to find out they used macaroni for the floor instead of tile?

Please be reasonable.

Something like a house is a necessity... the car deal is stupid... but they obviously have a shitload of money...
My point was what if you can't affort/don't have that kind of money to spend on a game.

I didn't ask if you were super rich and could buy everything would you pirate stuff to be a cheap prick.


Not everyone has $200 for a game that originally retailed for $50. There are a lot of rich people... but, surprisingly... not everyone has $200 that they can just toss down on a game. And by being too cheap to pay what is asked... What is being asked is 4 times retail value... You don't think thats rediculous?

[

Not at all. I've seen people pay 40-80k for a car that had a 'retail value' of 20k. While I wouldn't do it, I have no problem with them doing it. I myself paid close to 200,000 two years ago for a bunch of wood, metal and wires. I didn't 'toss it down', I saved some and financed the rest because what I purchased was worth it to me. That item was probably 30k more than it's 'retail value,' so according to you, I should have offered to only pay retail value.
It doesn't matter what 'retail value' is, once you're out of the retail market. All that matters is Buyer's willingness to buy and Seller's asking price. That's capitalism. If the item is important to you, you should have either bought it when it was MSRP, or save up for it.

I also don't have a problem with being too cheap to pay what is asked. I don't buy soft drinks at restaurants, I'm not going to pay 1.75 for .12 worth of Mt Dew. That's the beauty of being a consumer, we can choose what is worth it to us to buy. But I also don't ask them to refill my own cup that I brought..

Let's say my next door neighbour has a wireless broadband connection. Why, 45 bucks is way too much for me to spend on internet. Is it moral, okay, correct, for me to wirelessly jack in to his connection? After all, I'm not downloading huge files, no one's getting hurt except the big bad cable company, who's trying to make that evil Profit.

[cheapass Gundam]

So you two think its ok for people on Ebay to charge both arms and legs?

If the price is unreasonable, nobody will bid and people on eBay won't make their sales. They are free to ask for a million bucks, you don't have to bid on their auctions. Just wait for someone to put one up at a lower starting bid.

[dtcarson]

One could argue a bootleg is like renting a game. When you are done with it, destroy it. If you want to play/own the original, buy it. I dont see a problem with playing bootlegs if 1) no one is making a profit 2) its a temporary fix 3) one buys games to support more good games (eventually if everyone stops buying videogames, there will be no new games)

Take this example. You buy a game. Copy said game. Trade said game. You are supporting the industry by the initial purchase. You lose money by trading it = no profit. You have a copy of the game should you want to play it again. Similar to renting a game from megaripoffrentalbuster, except you arent paying to play the game at an outrageous rental fee.

Um, no. Renting a game [or movie, or dvd, or library book] is a valid, acceptable method of 'borrowing' a single copy of an item to review it or use it for a temporary amount of time. Copying that item, illegally and immorally duplicates that item. And gives you ownership, granted of a copy, of the intellectual property that was on the disk, where your rental contract only allowed you a temporary rental.

Oh, and so now, 6.50 is an 'outrageous' rental fee for up to two weeks of a game rental? "Cheapass" isn't even the right word.

[Wshakspear]

Technically that e-bay seller IS a part of the market. If it wasnt for the fact people collect games, there wouldnt be a market in the first place. Everything would be on-demand downloads for certain periods of time (Phantom?). No, that "$200" for Suikoden 2 will not go to the company that made the game, but it will get word of mouth about its value, thus giving said comapny free publicity, which is about the only reason i can see that a 4th was made (IMO...i just HAD to throw something like that in to piss someone off :) )

On the other hand...i PERSONNALY, wether illegal/legal or right/wrong, like to play emu's or burned copies of hard to find games. some available from a foriegn country, others just WAY too expensive, to the point it would be monetarily unavailable to me.

To get to the point: Its wrong, no one should do it, it does effect the industry, but not exactly in pocketbook form. And i like playing a burned copy of Evil Twin for DC

[evilmax17]

So basically you're okay with pirating stuff, if the price of the stuff is more than you're willing to pay. Got it.

Its really shades of gray, with a few unchangable points. If you can find it NEW in a fair amount of retail stores, then its wrong to pirate it. No bones about it.

In regards to "more than I'm willing to pay". Eh, kinda sorta, but I think that common sense yields when a videogame is severely overpriced. Looking at Suikoden II as a videogame to play (disregarding collectability), $200!? When you pirate the game, you're not inheriting it's collectable value. You also aren't getting the box and manual, or the official disk. You're not "stealing" the game, you're pirating it. Again, shades of gray, but i think that it's important.

On "what if the seller uses the money to buy more games" etc: please. If it's and buts were candy and nuts, we'd allllllllllll have a merry christmas!

About EB and Gamestop: I have NO moral qualms with doing damage to this company (in regards to used games). They've been ripping people off for years, and use horrible busines practices in general. I don't mind hurting their used game sales because they're evil enough as it is. Its like giving Satan a wedgie...

[Kayden]

Now you're warping my words and trying to make me look like a dick so you can win an argument.

Ok, (this can go to dcfox too) say the guy on ebay has X game for $200.... I want X game... but I dont want to pay $200... So I decide not to buy the game... uh... what happens then? Gee, maybe someone else buys it. Now say I further decide to pirate a copy of the game... does the ebayer's copy magically combust and vanish from existance... hell no... he winds up selling it to someone else with a lot more disposable income than me... so... how did he get hurt by me pirating the copy? If it means that somewhere a long the line my extra copy means that 1 person wont be able to sell their copy for $200 I don't think the game must be all that rare... in which case it probably wouldn't sell for $200, nor would this argument have any point...

Now, there will probably always be a finite number of game X. It will probably sell for more and more as time goes on because copies will get destroyed, as this spiral continues the price will further climb out of the comfortable range of most gamers. Eventually only collectors will be buying them to look at, the game will never be played again as that would lower its value. Granted... now I'm projecting... but its feasible.
Here's the key phrase, and what makes it into an issue of morality. BY saying this, you are saying it's preferred to make an illegal copy of a game so that you can benefit, because you're too cheap to pay whatever is being asked for it. If it's worth pirating, it's worth trying to buy. Plus I've always found you get more enjoyment out of something you have to work for, rather than something that is easily-gotten or ill-gotten.

Agreed, if it were still available in a retail store. I think of "buying" as buying it from a retail store (who had previously bought it from the company). In my mind, the only negative thing about videogame piracy is that it takes money away from the industry (thus hindering future game development), and that doesn't happen if you buy it from somebody on eBay.


Regardless of 'whom it hurts'. Some people have morals whether or not someone is harmed by them. No one is hurt by paying 200 bucks for Suikoden 2 either.

Please clarify:
" Who gets hurt if I play a burned copy of a rare game? The greedy eBay seller trying to make a huge profit (and you know what, that doesn't bother me at all). "

Do you mean it doesnt' bother you if the 'greedy Ebay seller' gets 'hurt'? or it doesn't bother you that he's trying to make a huge profit?

If the latter: Why is everyone so against making a profit? If you had an item you paid 20 bucks for, and you could sell it easily for 100, wouldn't you do it? How is he greedy? If wanting to maximize your profit *by charging what the market will bear*, since it takes a buyer and a seller to make a transaction, is greedy, then color me greedy.


I meant that I didn't care if it hurt the eBay seller. The seller isn't in the videogame industry, and the future of the industry isn't affected AT ALL by independent eBay sales. In terms of "hurting" this seller, you aren't even really doing that. As people have said "if you don't want to pay that much for it, then don't", so I'm not. If I downloaded a rom of Suikoden II (the example I like using in this situation), I'm not even hurting the eBay seller (because I wasn't going to pay that much for it anyway).

I'm not against making a profit either. If I found a sealed copy of Suikoden II in some Mom and Pop shop, you can damn well bet that it would be on eBay that night. But by the same token, I would know that the person buying my game would either be a collector or a "sucker". I wouldn't want people to pity me if I couldn't sell my game for rediculous profit, and I would rather not get paid and have more people experience the game than otherwise.

But that seller on Ebay, that money he was going to get from selling his copy of the game, perhaps he would buy three more games with it, or put it in his kid's college account, or take his family out to dinner with. Now he can't because you pirated the game and no longer wanted to buy it. No one's hurt?
Oh, so if you found the game, you'd be the evil seller charging 4x retail?
Who ever mentioned pity? I don't pity an ebay seller for not making a sale, I'm saying if piracy is the reason he's not making a sale, the piracy is wrong [and not just because of him not making a sale, but because piracy is wrong.]

So basically you're okay with pirating stuff, if the price of the stuff is more than you're willing to pay. Got it.

[dtcarson]

Ok... I think you're arguing this into the realm of what-the-hell-are-you-thinking territory..
Its a house... a FREAKING HOUSE... You can't pirate a house... Are you going to ebay a house from Hong Kong only to find out they used macaroni for the floor instead of tile?

Please be reasonable.

Something like a house is a necessity... the car deal is stupid... but they obviously have a shitload of money...
My point was what if you can't affort/don't have that kind of money to spend on a game.

I didn't ask if you were super rich and could buy everything would you pirate stuff to be a cheap prick.




I'm illustrating absurdity by being absurd. I'm using the same logic you have used. The house example was regarding 'MSRP' and 'resale markup'. Valid for housing, valid for video games. If I thought the price was too high for this house, I would have looked elsewhere-either the price would eventually go down, or someone else would have bought it. Just like for games.

"Something like a house is a necessity.
My point was what if you can't affort/don't have that kind of money to spend on a game."

That makes it even worse. You'd steal IP, commit piracy, admit you're selling out for a few hundred bucks, for a *luxury item*? Even the guy in Les Miserables stole bread to feed his family.

I was unclear: Certainly in many cases of resale, the original creator does not profit directly.
First: Why does that matter? If that's the logic for piracy, then again, let's pirate Elvis records-he's dead, he's not profiting. The main thought when making a purchase shouldn't be 'who's making money off this,' it should be 'is this item worth X to me?'
Second: Tangentally, the creator, or the industry, or another industry, does profit. The economy is interrelated. If I sell a DVD for 20, buy a game for 30, sell it for 40, that money floats around in the economy and does profit others, possibly even the original creator down the line.

[Kayden]

Its like giving Satan a wedgie...

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Technically that e-bay seller IS a part of the market. If it wasnt for the fact people collect games, there wouldnt be a market in the first place. Everything would be on-demand downloads for certain periods of time (Phantom?). No, that "$200" for Suikoden 2 will not go to the company that made the game, but it will get word of mouth about its value, thus giving said comapny free publicity, which is about the only reason i can see that a 4th was made (IMO...i just HAD to throw something like that in to piss someone off Smile )

Wouldn't pirating it have the same effect? You'd still play the game and find out its a great game and then tell your friends its a great game... but if its a bad game you'll tell the it sucked and its value should lower... Which would be good, because shitty games being worth a lot just because their aren't a lot of them is bad...

[_heretic]

Define "unreasonably priced."
It's all relative.
To me 150 bucks for Super Bowl tickets is *way* "unreasonably priced," does that mean I can get them for free, if I counterfeited them and didn't steal someone elses seat?
No one is 'forcing' you to buy anything.

but they still make super bowl tickets... and you can watch it for free at home...

They don't make Star Ocean 2, Suikoden 1&2, Chrono Trigger, and all those anymore...

They actually do make Star Ocean and Chrono Trigger still.

[dtcarson]

Now you're warping my words and trying to make me look like a dick so you can win an argument.

Ok, (this can go to dcfox too) say the guy on ebay has X game for $200.... I want X game... but I dont want to pay $200... So I decide not to buy the game... .[/quote]

Then that is where it should end. Piracy is making an illegal [and in my opinion, immoral] copy of something that's not yours. If you're okay with that, if 200 bucks is more important to you than a sense of morality or ethics, than obviously we disagree.

Maybe he sells it to some kid who worked all summer mowing lawns, saving money, to buy the game. Or an adult collector who cashed out his 401k. The argument that 'i shouldn't have to pay 200 bucks for this game because I don't have that much disposable income' is, well, totally self-centered and wrong. You couldn't save up 200 bucks? Ever? Birthdays, Christmases, ebaying some of your other stuff? Or does it come down to, like I said earlier, "200 bucks is more than I want to spend on that item [for whatever reason], so I think pirating it is okay instead." That's what your argument boils down to, as far as I can tell. If that's the case, then so be it. I wholeheartedly disagree, but that's your opinion.

Arguing 'well, who would be hurt by it' is a McGuffin. It doesn't matter, it's irrelevant to the crux of the discussion.

[PsyClerk]

Couple of points to consider, one pro, one con (hey, I like to stir the pot):

-Who's to say the game you pirate, in this case Suikoden 2, won't see a re-release? Retro-gaming is getting pretty large lately, and it's not outside the realm of possibility. By pirating it, you have directly hurt the developer, because that's at least one sale they probably won't make.

-On the other side of the same coin, I think there is a valid point about items no longer being available. What about a case of demand with NO supply? I want to play Extremely Obscure Arcade Game X. It was never translated to a console, and the company that made it went out of business a long time ago. It's likely that, due to a low production run, no cabinets or PCBs for this game exist anymore. The one known PCB was used to dump the ROM, then was lost/destroyed in the mail. What then? (I realize this is an extreme)

[fragmanslayer]

If the market determines a price for an object and it is too high for your tastes you have the option to figure out how to afford it or wait til the pricepoint is in your range and then buy it.

I was using the rental as an example. $8 is too much for me to rent a game for a week (not using the damn end-of-late-fees exploit) when I can buy games for cheaper. I prefer to borrow games from friends and let them borrow my games. Simple solution to having to pay MSRP for anything. I guess you pay that premium in order to OWN said merchandise in this case a videogame.

You dont own a bootleg, you own the media its on, but not the data that is on the media. Thats where the illegality comes into play. If there were no such thing as bootlegs though, people would not get to experience as much because they wouldnt be able to legitimately afford it.

Could fansubs be compared to bootlegging games? I personally wouldnt mind saving money here and there by copying a game, but in the long run, it wouldnt be worth it. Fines, lawsuits, criminal activity, etc just wouldnt be worth it. IF you get caught.

Getting back to morality. Its only moral if you believe its not hurting anyone. Morals are a personal thing all in your mind. You can believe you are moral while others believe you are morally corrupt. It all depends on who is looking through the microscope.

[dtcarson]

About EB and Gamestop: I have NO moral qualms with doing damage to this company (in regards to used games). They've been ripping people off for years, and use horrible busines practices in general. I don't mind hurting their used game sales because they're evil enough as it is. Its like giving Satan a wedgie...

Ripping people off? Allowing people to buy games, for a while return them, and sell their used games for a mutually-agreed upon price? Helping to make gaming mainstream, offering sales and promos, offering a wide selection of new and used games? That's ripping people off, that makes them evil?

Like I said earlier: No one's forcing you to buy or sell there. If NO ONE bought or sold there, they would either go out of business or change their practices.
Do you have any evidence of other 'horrible business practices', like beating their employees, stealing credit card numbers, things like that?

[Kayden]

Ok... I think you're arguing this into the realm of what-the-hell-are-you-thinking territory..
Its a house... a FREAKING HOUSE... You can't pirate a house... Are you going to ebay a house from Hong Kong only to find out they used macaroni for the floor instead of tile?

Please be reasonable.

Something like a house is a necessity... the car deal is stupid... but they obviously have a shitload of money...
My point was what if you can't affort/don't have that kind of money to spend on a game.

I didn't ask if you were super rich and could buy everything would you pirate stuff to be a cheap prick.




I'm illustrating absurdity by being absurd. I'm using the same logic you have used. The house example was regarding 'MSRP' and 'resale markup'. Valid for housing, valid for video games. If I thought the price was too high for this house, I would have looked elsewhere-either the price would eventually go down, or someone else would have bought it. Just like for games.

"Something like a house is a necessity.
My point was what if you can't affort/don't have that kind of money to spend on a game."

That makes it even worse. You'd steal IP, commit piracy, admit you're selling out for a few hundred bucks, for a *luxury item*? Even the guy in Les Miserables stole bread to feed his family.

I was unclear: Certainly in many cases of resale, the original creator does not profit directly.
First: Why does that matter? If that's the logic for piracy, then again, let's pirate Elvis records-he's dead, he's not profiting. The main thought when making a purchase shouldn't be 'who's making money off this,' it should be 'is this item worth X to me?'
Second: Tangentally, the creator, or the industry, or another industry, does profit. The economy is interrelated. If I sell a DVD for 20, buy a game for 30, sell it for 40, that money floats around in the economy and does profit others, possibly even the original creator down the line.

Stop using the dead artist analogy! It doesn't work! Elvis is dead, YES... but his music is still owned by family and record lables... "wtf, how is that different than pirating a game?'

Well, the record company still offers the music at a resonable price in a convient fashion. $15 at Wal*mart... Ok, you're getting what you want legally and supporting the manufacturer. Granted, buying the CD wont make Elvis record anymore songs, but it will show the owners you're still interested in further items. GH compilations, box sets, what ever...

"well if Konami sees Suikoden II selling for $200 on ebay they'll release it / make new games" Well... some validity... but then those with the loudest voice are those with the games already, they played it and loved it and want more. The biggest craze for a sequel is generally right after the lastest entry is released, before its a collectors item. People bought the game when it came out to play it. they beat it and want the story to continue. So they clammor for the next part. The ebay resellers only come into play after the game has become rare... years later... if Developer X hasn't atleast started thinking about a new version, people hoarding on ebay will have little effect, most likely. Further more, those dinking on ebay are out for money... any rerelease would hurt orignal sales.

[Kayden]

Define "unreasonably priced."
It's all relative.
To me 150 bucks for Super Bowl tickets is *way* "unreasonably priced," does that mean I can get them for free, if I counterfeited them and didn't steal someone elses seat?
No one is 'forcing' you to buy anything.

but they still make super bowl tickets... and you can watch it for free at home...

They don't make Star Ocean 2, Suikoden 1&2, Chrono Trigger, and all those anymore...

They actually do make Star Ocean and Chrono Trigger still.

Smart ass... I don't mean the 3rd one or the psx copy.

I was refering to the original SNES copy. :P

[evilmax17]

There's a lot of really good points being made by both sides, and I loves me some intelligent discussion, so I'll hang out here for a little while.

Couple of points to consider, one pro, one con (hey, I like to stir the pot):

-Who's to say the game you pirate, in this case Suikoden 2, won't see a re-release? Retro-gaming is getting pretty large lately, and it's not outside the realm of possibility. By pirating it, you have directly hurt the developer, because that's at least one sale they probably won't make.


I realize that I can't speak for everybody, so I'll speak for myself and hope that I represent a good chunk of the gaming community. I bought MMAC and Sonic Mega Collection at launch, and I own the originals for all of the games that are contained on them. Hopefully things like bonus content (and sheer convenience) would influence people to buy the rerelease. I think that the "game" and the whole product (packaging, presentation) are two different animals.

Ripping people off? Allowing people to buy games, for a while return them, and sell their used games for a mutually-agreed upon price? Helping to make gaming mainstream, offering sales and promos, offering a wide selection of new and used games? That's ripping people off, that makes them evil?

Like I said earlier: No one's forcing you to buy or sell there. If NO ONE bought or sold there, they would either go out of business or change their practices.
Do you have any evidence of other 'horrible business practices', like beating their employees, stealing credit card numbers, things like that?

Awww bro, you missed my big point. But I'll address this first.

I'm referring to things like selling used games as new, selling display copies for the sealed price, and giving somebody $0.50 for a game and turning around and selling it for $10. Yes, I realize that this is all PERFECTLY legal, but I don't agree with it morally. That's just me.

My big point was that when you pirate the game, you don't inherrit any of the benefits of the real mccoy. Your burned disk is worth approximately squat, and you don't get the box and manual. Alot of that $200 pricetag on eBay is collectability, and you aren't getting that when you download it. Look at Re2 and Re3 for GCN on eBay. Do you think people are paying $150 for the data on the disk? Or for the whole package?

[dtcarson]

If the market determines a price for an object and it is too high for your tastes you have the option to figure out how to afford it or wait til the pricepoint is in your range and then buy it..

Absolutely.


I was using the rental as an example. $8 is too much for me to rent a game for a week (not using the damn end-of-late-fees exploit) when I can buy games for cheaper. I prefer to borrow games from friends and let them borrow my games. Simple solution to having to pay MSRP for anything. I guess you pay that premium in order to OWN said merchandise in this case a videogame.

Again, I'm cool with that. I don't generally like renting either, because I could usually find a game for around 20 bucks or less, so I might as well just buy it. [And using their policy isn't an 'exploit.'] Borrowing/lending/trading, sounds good too.


You dont own a bootleg, you own the media its on, but not the data that is on the media. Thats where the illegality comes into play. If there were no such thing as bootlegs though, people would not get to experience as much because they wouldnt be able to legitimately afford it.

Correct on all counts. But your final argument is misleading--honest people don't get to experience as much as thieves, because thieves just take what they want while honest people wait till they legimitately afford it. Does that excuse thievery? No.


Could fansubs be compared to bootlegging games? I personally wouldnt mind saving money here and there by copying a game, but in the long run, it wouldnt be worth it. Fines, lawsuits, criminal activity, etc just wouldnt be worth it. IF you get caught.


Fansubbing could definitely be compared to pirating games, with one addition: most fansubs are stuff that haven't been released over here. Where's the motivation for Geneon or whoever to release it over here, if there's already a lot fansubs floating around, for free?


Getting back to morality. Its only moral if you believe its not hurting anyone. Morals are a personal thing all in your mind. You can believe you are moral while others believe you are morally corrupt. It all depends on who is looking through the microscope.

Hmm..I disagree slightly with this. Morality is not the absence of harm, it's the presence of virtue. Not quite the same thing.
"Its only moral if you believe its not hurting anyone." This sounds more like the legal definition of insanity, "at the time of the commission of the acts, the defendant, was unable to appreciate the nature and quality or the wrongfulness of his acts. ' IE, he believed it didnt' hurt anyone.

[PsyClerk]

Smart ass... I don't mean the 3rd one or the psx copy.

I was refering to the original SNES copy. :P

That's not a valid counterpoint. The game is available. Just because it's in a different format doesn't count as 'no longer in production.'

A ROM of Chrono Trigger would be in a different format from the original SNES as well.

[Kayden]

Couple of points to consider, one pro, one con (hey, I like to stir the pot):

-Who's to say the game you pirate, in this case Suikoden 2, won't see a re-release? Retro-gaming is getting pretty large lately, and it's not outside the realm of possibility. By pirating it, you have directly hurt the developer, because that's at least one sale they probably won't make.

-On the other side of the same coin, I think there is a valid point about items no longer being available. What about a case of demand with NO supply? I want to play Extremely Obscure Arcade Game X. It was never translated to a console, and the company that made it went out of business a long time ago. It's likely that, due to a low production run, no cabinets or PCBs for this game exist anymore. The one known PCB was used to dump the ROM, then was lost/destroyed in the mail. What then? (I realize this is an extreme)

Both great points... BUT, I have to disagree with the first one. I have a pirated copy of Valkyrie Profile. Yet, the first thing I did when Amazon posted some was order a copy. Now... $40 is a bit for an old game... but seeing how I did pirate it already, I can give a little more. However... if amazon wanted to sell it at 200... I'd say they could shove it.


Could fansubs be compared to bootlegging games? I personally wouldnt mind saving money here and there by copying a game, but in the long run, it wouldnt be worth it. Fines, lawsuits, criminal activity, etc just wouldnt be worth it. IF you get caught.

Good point... fan subs of DBZ were around for years before Philips and Funimation got their crap together... is it wrong to get a copy of a show to watch in your native language?

[fragmanslayer]

I guess the pro side of piracy being moral is a losing battle.

If you want item X so badly but cant afford it you should not be AMERICAN and go into debt acquiring it. Inflated sales and what not are the reason why the majority of this great nation is up to their ears in debt. And because of the fact that they have no impulse control keeps them from organizing their lives and gettin out of debt. Just say no.

Back on topic, piracy hurts videogames ONLY if copies are still available/being made. If a game is sitting on a shelf, no one wants to buy it at that price. Eventually the price will come down (liquidation) to a point you want to buy it. If a game is no longer being made and you cant find a copy for sale at a reasonable price (big range here) then you will see piracy.

[dtcarson]

Awww bro, you missed my big point. But I'll address this first.

I'm referring to things like selling used games as new, selling display copies for the sealed price, and giving somebody $0.50 for a game and turning around and selling it for $10. Yes, I realize that this is all PERFECTLY legal, but I don't agree with it morally. That's just me.

Okay, selling used as new I can have a question about, selling display as sealed as well [although the price is for 'new' not necessarily 'sealed'.] And the used-as-new argument can be used lots of other places--that 'new' car you just bought, already has 125 miles on it. That shirt you tried on, just got returned. Buying for .50 and selling for 10, I don't have a problem with--the trader-in doesn't have to accept the .50, and obviously the .50 is worth more to him than the game.


My big point was that when you pirate the game, you don't inherrit any of the benefits of the real mccoy. Your burned disk is worth approximately squat, and you don't get the box and manual. Alot of that $200 pricetag on eBay is collectability, and you aren't getting that when you download it. Look at Re2 and Re3 for GCN on eBay. Do you think people are paying $150 for the data on the disk? Or for the whole package?

This is absolutely true. they're wanting the 'real thing', and certainly as complete as possible. But you using this to condone piracy, or speak against it, or just as a random factoid? I guess I don't get your point. In your original post you mentioned 'severely overpriced,' but again, that is a totally subjective measurement. 150 would be overpriced by any account for a homeburned CDR copy of any game, but for a legit complete game? Depends onthe buyer.

[PsyClerk]

I'm referring to things like selling used games as new, selling display copies for the sealed price, and giving somebody $0.50 for a game and turning around and selling it for $10. Yes, I realize that this is all PERFECTLY legal, but I don't agree with it morally. That's just me.

But both parties involved in the last two example you give agree to the transaction, thus no wrong is done. If I agree to buy an old tire from you for $1000, as long as we agree to the transaction, there is no wrongdoing. It's stupid on my part, but stupid and wrong are two different things.

As for the selling used games as new, you have legal means to gain satisfaction should that occur (for all the talk of it, I have personally not seen it, but regardless...). And as stated before, you can always shop elsewhere. That is how it's supposed to work.

[Kayden]

Smart ass... I don't mean the 3rd one or the psx copy.

I was refering to the original SNES copy. :P

That's not a valid counterpoint. The game is available. Just because it's in a different format doesn't count as 'no longer in production.'

A ROM of Chrono Trigger would be in a different format from the original SNES as well.

*sigh*... fine, wanna nit pic?

Star Ocean 1... Japanese Not even release here
Super Mario RPG - Snes
EarthBound - snes
A Boy and His Blob - NES
MegaMan soccer- SNES
Trebble & Bass - Snes
... ...
well.. there are a lot of catridge only games with only one version.... Tons of games that can hardly be found... :P

[PsyClerk]

Both great points... BUT, I have to disagree with the first one. I have a pirated copy of Valkyrie Profile. Yet, the first thing I did when Amazon posted some was order a copy. Now... $40 is a bit for an old game... but seeing how I did pirate it already, I can give a little more. However... if amazon wanted to sell it at 200... I'd say they could shove it.

This goes back to the earlier point of "it's not piracy if it's out of my price range." If demand drives the price of an item out of your reach, then welcome to capitalism, my friend.

[dtcarson]

I guess the pro side of piracy being moral is a losing battle.

If you want item X so badly but cant afford it you should not be AMERICAN and go into debt acquiring it. Inflated sales and what not are the reason why the majority of this great nation is up to their ears in debt. And because of the fact that they have no impulse control keeps them from organizing their lives and gettin out of debt. Just say no.

Back on topic, piracy hurts videogames ONLY if copies are still available/being made. If a game is sitting on a shelf, no one wants to buy it at that price. Eventually the price will come down (liquidation) to a point you want to buy it. If a game is no longer being made and you cant find a copy for sale at a reasonable price (big range here) then you will see piracy.

Paragraph 1: Save your money till you can afford it. Yes, you're right, part of the problem as to the massive consumer debt is the same tthinking that leads to piracy: "I want this now, and I don't want to wait [until the price drops or I save money." So I use credit [not necessarily a bad thing], or pirate it [a bad thing.]

Paragraph 2: It doesnt' matter if piracy hurts video games/industry [which it does, regardless if the game is new, old, OOP, etc]. What matters is that piracy, taking someone else's IP illegally and immorally, is wrong, and everything else is a side issue.

[Kayden]

I think were also starting to stretch too far from my idea...

I was asking about rare games that aren't made anymore.

Then things like houses, cars, clothes, forging... all came into play.

Being raped by property taxes and trying to get a rare game are very separate entities.

When you bring in piracy as a whole you get people ripping everything the second it comes out just to save money on retail.

I have nothing against waiting for the retail price to sink after a while... but when the price is only going up and I just want to play the game and not make an 'investment' ...

My point was to simply ask about what you guys thought about getting rare games to play for free. Not about fraud, imbezzlement, or any other fellony.

[PsyClerk]

*sigh*... fine, wanna nit pic?

Star Ocean 1... Japanese Not even release here
Super Mario RPG - Snes
EarthBound - snes
A Boy and His Blob - NES
MegaMan soccer- SNES
Trebble & Bass - Snes
... ...
well.. there are a lot of catridge only games with only one version.... Tons of games that can hardly be found... :P

And once again I point to my earlier post and ask who are you to say those games will not be re-released? If they were produced by a now-defunct company whose game rights were not purchased, then you might have a case. However, those you listed are owned by active companies. Find one that's not and we'll discuss it.

Also, there is a supply of those games out there. Now, when all copies of a game cartridge have degraded to no longer work, you might have a case. Unless the company that owns the game has the code somewhere, with plans for a re-release...etc etc.

[Kayden]

Paragraph 2: It doesnt' matter if piracy hurts video games/industry [which it does, regardless if the game is new, old, OOP, etc]. What matters is that piracy, taking someone else's IP illegally and immorally, is wrong, and everything else is a side issue.

So... you're saying that by playing BaseWars on an emulator... someone is hurting Nintendo?

[fragmanslayer]

This was a good conversation with good arguments and examples. Good brain exercises.

One last point I would like to raise. Do you think people who lie, cheat, steal, commit crimes, etc can live with themselves because of what they do? Is that because they are not moral or is that because they are really bad people.

Arent morals pushed on us by society. If society believes piracy is ok, then it is ok. As of right now, the corporations who believe and keep telling us that piracy is wrong means that it is wrong. They are only bitching because they THINK they are losing money when in fact they are making more money because more people are being exposed through piracy and purchasing NEW stuff. Goes for music, movies, possibly videogames. The money is all going to F'ing lawyers (aka asshats, sharks, good for nothing POS mofos).

[onetrackmind]

Its a well known fact that some of our favorite older games are becoming quite costly...

So... where to do yous stand on the issue of copies? Do you think we should be forced to pay 100+ for games we might not even like? Do you think emulators and mod chips are ok when used for games that are unreasonably priced on ebay?

you just opened up a huge can of worms bro...

[Kayden]

*sigh*... fine, wanna nit pic?

Star Ocean 1... Japanese Not even release here
Super Mario RPG - Snes
EarthBound - snes
A Boy and His Blob - NES
MegaMan soccer- SNES
Trebble & Bass - Snes
... ...
well.. there are a lot of catridge only games with only one version.... Tons of games that can hardly be found... :P

And once again I point to my earlier post and ask who are you to say those games will not be re-released? If they were produced by a now-defunct company whose game rights were not purchased, then you might have a case. However, those you listed are owned by active companies. Find one that's not and we'll discuss it.

Also, there is a supply of those games out there. Now, when all copies of a game cartridge have degraded to no longer work, you might have a case. Unless the company that owns the game has the code somewhere, with plans for a re-release...etc etc.

*sigh*.... If they made a rerelease for a game I had pirated I would probably be tempted to buy it unless they messed it up ala MegaMan for GC... (I do own the ps2 version tho)

But again, I'm not arguing legality... I don't care if Capcom might release a crappy port of MegaMan Soccer in 20 years, I want to play it now and not play $100. I know its illegal, but I think all this intelectual property stuff is retarded... 'you cant use that, we might possibly think about considering using that idea later...

Hold your horses... Im saying its rediculous in the sense of sexual harasment or political correctness. A little is a good thing... Don't grab her boobies, don't call him a "slow or stupid person" (think N), and don't take credit for other peoples ideas... good principles... but now you cant lick your lips in the presence of a woman, arrest a minority without it being 'racial profiling' or make a mod or a homebrew game with your favorite characters because the owners want to squat on the rights. (Lucas arts stopped a bunch of people from making mods and what not because they featured Sam and Max (fully credited) because they planned on maybe making a game sometime later.... which they cancelled anyways)

This is a nation founded by great ideas executed by freaking morons that fuck everything up.

[Kayden]

This was a good conversation with good arguments and examples. Good brain exercises.

One last point I would like to raise. Do you think people who lie, cheat, steal, commit crimes, etc can live with themselves because of what they do? Is that because they are not moral or is that because they are really bad people.

Arent morals pushed on us by society. If society believes piracy is ok, then it is ok. As of right now, the corporations who believe and keep telling us that piracy is wrong means that it is wrong. They are only bitching because they THINK they are losing money when in fact they are making more money because more people are being exposed through piracy and purchasing NEW stuff. Goes for music, movies, possibly videogames. The money is all going to F'ing lawyers (aka asshats, sharks, good for nothing POS mofos).

There is no right and wrong... just what is socially acceptable and what is not.

[Kayden]

Its a well known fact that some of our favorite older games are becoming quite costly...

So... where to do yous stand on the issue of copies? Do you think we should be forced to pay 100+ for games we might not even like? Do you think emulators and mod chips are ok when used for games that are unreasonably priced on ebay?

you just opened up a huge can of worms bro...

Don't I know it... I'm trying to stomp the lid back on... but they just keep crawling out... oh the wiggling!

[Kayden]

Hmmm... I hate to make 4 posts in a row, but I'm headed to Game crazy to scope some deals...

[doodle777_98]

as soon as information is created it's up for grabs

Damn straight. Information, sound, sights. Let's keep the rich from getting richer and the poor from getting poorer.

[javeryh]

The money is all going to F'ing lawyers (aka asshats, sharks, good for nothing POS mofos).

I resent that. No one is forcing anyone to file any lawsuits. Lawyers can't even really advertise (it used to be illegal but even today it is still heavily regulated). Attorneys fees are high because you are getting a service that cannot be performed by anyone else. What happened to the "if it's not worth it don't buy it" mentality that is all over this thread?

Being called a mofo is fine with me but if you want to be more accurate, please, say "rich mofo" instead... \:D/

[goergegavin]

The money is all going to F'ing lawyers (aka asshats, sharks, good for nothing POS mofos).

I resent that. No one is forcing anyone to file any lawsuits. Lawyers can't even really advertise (it used to be illegal but even today it is still heavily regulated). Attorneys fees are high because you are getting a service that cannot be performed by anyone else. What happened to the "if it's not worth it don't buy it" mentality that is all over this thread?

Being called a mofo is fine with me but if you want to be more accurate, please, say "rich mofo" instead... \:D/

:lol:

[PsyClerk]

*sigh*.... If they made a rerelease for a game I had pirated I would probably be tempted to buy it unless they messed it up ala MegaMan for GC... (I do own the ps2 version tho)

But again, I'm not arguing legality... I don't care if Capcom might release a crappy port of MegaMan Soccer in 20 years, I want to play it now and not play $100. I know its illegal, but I think all this intelectual property stuff is retarded... 'you cant use that, we might possibly think about considering using that idea later...

If it was YOUR intellectual property that had made millions of dollars, you would think differently. Therein lies the problem. Too many people cannot put themselves on the opposite end of their argument. You might say "well, if I made a game and it sold a billion copies, I would eventually let it go for free through emulation or whatever." You think that NOW. Once you've actually produced something, be it a game, a novel, a movie, just an idea, and that thing makes money for you, your perception WOULD change. This is why there are so many games where the dev(s) have asked that it NOT be distributed freely.

Hold your horses... Im saying its rediculous in the sense of sexual harasment or political correctness. A little is a good thing... Don't grab her boobies, don't call him a "slow or stupid person" (think N), and don't take credit for other peoples ideas... good principles... but now you cant lick your lips in the presence of a woman, arrest a minority without it being 'racial profiling' or make a mod or a homebrew game with your favorite characters because the owners want to squat on the rights. (Lucas arts stopped a bunch of people from making mods and what not because they featured Sam and Max (fully credited) because they planned on maybe making a game sometime later.... which they cancelled anyways)

Making a homebrew game and pirating a commercially available game are two different things, and arguments about the former have no bearing on the original topic.

This is a nation founded by great ideas executed by freaking morons that shaq-fu everything up.

Not sure what that has to do with the original topic.

The question we should ask is "Why hasn't JSweeney or epobirs (or even CornfedWB) weighed in yet?"

[dtcarson]

This was a good conversation with good arguments and examples. Good brain exercises.

One last point I would like to raise. Do you think people who lie, cheat, steal, commit crimes, etc can live with themselves because of what they do? Is that because they are not moral or is that because they are really bad people.

Arent morals pushed on us by society. If society believes piracy is ok, then it is ok. As of right now, the corporations who believe and keep telling us that piracy is wrong means that it is wrong. They are only bitching because they THINK they are losing money when in fact they are making more money because more people are being exposed through piracy and purchasing NEW stuff. Goes for music, movies, possibly videogames. The money is all going to F'ing lawyers (aka asshats, sharks, good for nothing POS mofos).

Society--and morals--and corporations--all have one thing in common. They all originate from people. "Society" isn't some third party thing.
I think piracy is wrong, regardless if anyone is 'hurt' by it, because in my mind it is akin to stealing, ie, taking what is not yours, and that also is wrong.

I have no problem with 'the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer' [even though right now the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting richer as well] if the rich are doing it legally and morally through hard work or creativity or offering something in demand, be it tangible or not.

And about the question:
"So... where to do yous stand on the issue of copies? Do you think we should be forced to pay 100+ for games we might not even like? Do you think emulators and mod chips are ok when used for games that are unreasonably priced on ebay?"

Piracy is wrong. You're not 'forced' to buy anything. If something is 'unreasonably priced' save up or wait for the price to drop or deal without it. None of that condones piracy. Someone else brought in the 'Wel, it doesn't hurt anyone argument, which, again, is irrelevant to the core issue.

I have no problem with 'trying to get a rare game' or book or dvd or video. I have a problem with the apparently widespread thinking, "Since I don't want to pay 50-200 bucks for it, it's ok to pirate it."

[evilmax17]

Alright, I'm going to bring up what I said earlier again to see what people think. When looking at rare OOP games, it can be safe to say that a good amount of the money they garner is because of collectibility and not necessarily because of their content (RE2/3 on GCN anybody?). This isn't to say that games like Suikoden II aren't good, but their value comes from their scarcity, and thus, collectibility.

When you download a ROM from the internet, you're gaining the ability to play the game. That's it. You don't get the case, box art, manual, official disks, none of it. You don't "own" Suikoden II after you burn the ROM onto a disk, you simply gain the ability to play the game.

Your burnt copy is worth the cd that its printed on. It has NO collectors value, or any of the value that you would associate eBay with. Alot of people have been making the arguement that this is taking a "sale" away from somebody else. How so?

How is this any different than borrowing the game from a friend? You'd get the same amount of play time, and the same gameplay experience. At the end of both situations, you still don't own the game, yet you've played it and beat it through.

Would you argue that borrowing videogames from friends is wrong? How is this any different? Could you consider the internet as a "universal" friend that you continually borrow games from?

Some food for thought.

[Hereticked]

If it was YOUR intellectual property that had made millions of dollars, you would think differently. Therein lies the problem. Too many people cannot put themselves on the opposite end of their argument. You might say "well, if I made a game and it sold a billion copies, I would eventually let it go for free through emulation or whatever." You think that NOW. Once you've actually produced something, be it a game, a novel, a movie, just an idea, and that thing makes money for you, your perception WOULD change. This is why there are so many games where the dev(s) have asked that it NOT be distributed freely.

Making money is all fine and good, but the larger issue thats not being discussed here is "How long should copyrights last?"

Corporate lobbyists have been pushing for longer and longer terms over the last 30 years and the end result is that all intellectual property is "owned" forever.... which is ridiculous.

Where would Disney be without the original Grimm Brothers tales? Should we not be allowed to create our own interpretations of the work of previous artists without having to be worried about being sued for copyright infringement?

Eventually copyrights must die and intellectual property must join the commons where it can be used freely by the populace and the next generation of artists. We can debate whether that should be 25 years or 50 years, but its an essential part of culture that is now being threatened in the name of greed.

[cheapass Gundam]

Alright, I'm going to bring up what I said earlier again to see what people think. When looking at rare OOP games, it can be safe to say that a good amount of the money they garner is because of collectibility and not necessarily because of their content (RE2/3 on GCN anybody?). This isn't to say that games like Suikoden II aren't good, but their value comes from their scarcity, and thus, collectibility.

When you download a ROM from the internet, you're gaining the ability to play the game. That's it. You don't get the case, box art, manual, official disks, none of it. You don't "own" Suikoden II after you burn the ROM onto a disk, you simply gain the ability to play the game.

Your burnt copy is worth the cd that its printed on. It has NO collectors value, or any of the value that you would associate eBay with. Alot of people have been making the arguement that this is taking a "sale" away from somebody else. How so?

How is this any different than borrowing the game from a friend? You'd get the same amount of play time, and the same gameplay experience. At the end of both situations, you still don't own the game, yet you've played it and beat it through.

Would you argue that borrowing videogames from friends is wrong? How is this any different? Could you consider the internet as a "universal" friend that you continually borrow games from?

Some food for thought.

Try the same argument with the RIAA and see how they like it. When you download music from P2P networks, you don't get the jewel case, you don't get the silkscreened disc, no insert booklet. Didn't stop them from taking Napster to the cleaners.

When you "borrow" from the universal friend that is the internet, no one suffered the loss of access to their copy, BTW.

[dtcarson]

Even if it's 25 years, that is still far longer than any video game release, so that part of the discussion is irrelevant to this thread. And there's a difference between the idea of, say, a Snow White hanging out with 7 dwarfs falling into public domain, and the ability to copy the thousands/millions of lines of code that were written to create the specific entity known as "Donkey Kong" or "Suikoden II'.
Borrowing/renting is not the same as burning your own copy. There is still only one 'copy' of the work, and the owner of the *media* [not the work] can do what he wants with it--give it away, sell it, smash it, etc. When he lends or sells it, ownership of that 'copy' is transferred temporarily. Borrowing transfers ownership from one person to another, the internet allows one copy be cloned indefinitely.

[evilmax17]

Try the same argument with the RIAA and see how they like it. When you download music from P2P networks, you don't get the jewel case, you don't get the silkscreened disc, no insert booklet. Didn't stop them from taking Napster to the cleaners.

When you "borrow" from the universal friend that is the internet, no one suffered the loss of access to their copy, BTW.

Again, i've already said that we're not argueing about legality. It's illegal, no bones about it. I'm not argueing about that. We're talking about if there's anything intrinsically wrong with it.

And again, I'm only talking about OOP games that you can't find in retail stores. I think that when you talk about piracy on current games, you start going down a very dark and dangerous road. With your RIAA analogy, you're talking about music that's widely and readily available. That's piracy for the WRONG reasons. I'm hypothesizing that there can be a RIGHT reason to pirate.

"Suffering the loss of access". I think this point is extremely moot. We have Suikoden II, that my friend has already beat and is letting me have for an undetermined amount of time. Really, is that you're only arguement for it?

[evilmax17]

Borrowing/renting is not the same as burning your own copy. There is still only one 'copy' of the work, and the owner of the *media* [not the work] can do what he wants with it--give it away, sell it, smash it, etc. When he lends or sells it, ownership of that 'copy' is transferred temporarily. Borrowing transfers ownership from one person to another, the internet allows one copy be cloned indefinitely.

You're right, millions of "copies" could be created. But none of these copies is of any worth. You could have a billion burned copies of RE2/3 for the GCN, and I seriously doubt that their eBay value would drop any. I think you're confusing the actual content, the actual game, with the physical product. You're right, when borrowing, there is only one PHYSICAL LEGIT copy (box manual etc). What does that have to do with somebody else playing it (burned or not).

[Hereticked]

Even if it's 25 years, that is still far longer than any video game release, so that part of the discussion is irrelevant to this thread.

No, its not.... especially since the videogame industry is about that old now.

Furthermore, it wont be that long until we're thinking of playstation games the way we think of nes and snes now.


And there's a difference between the idea of, say, a Snow White hanging out with 7 dwarfs falling into public domain, and the ability to copy the thousands/millions of lines of code that were written to create the specific entity known as "Donkey Kong" or "Suikoden II'.

Again... no there's not. Not when we're talking about who profits on the original work, which eventually should be nobody. (Especially once the original authors/creators are dead)

[Survivor Charlie]

I don't believe in playing 'backups' for modern systems. That said, I don't care if someone uses MAME or an NES emulator. Doesn't hurt the industry one bit. Midway Arcade Treasures has sold well, which shows that MAME doesn't hurt sales. NES Classics for the Gameboy all sell well, even Super Mario 1, which shows NES emulation doesn't hurt Nintendo. For many people, emulation is the only way they will ever be able to play Japanese games. Check my collection, I own thousands of games and yet I still use Nester DC for the Dreamcast because it's the most effective way to play famicom games that never reached America.

I do believe Emulation is a good way to keep old games from fading into the sunset. That said, I think it's awful that websites have ROMs for GBA games. I think it's awful that people get mod chips for the sake of playing bootleg PS2 games. That hurts the industry. Why steal Grand Theft Auto 3 when it's only $20? That's my feelings on it. I use emulation because games like Eggerland Mystery Revival never came out in the United States. But if they came out tomorrow, I would buy it and never play the emulator again. If I found a used copy of it for sale, I would buy it. Emulation should be a means to playing a game you could otherwise never play. Only in that instance is it acceptable.

[dtcarson]

Someone could *always* profit on the original work, as was stated by the pro-pirates above [see: my music references.]

That is irrelevant.

Some things are wrong, even if no one is directly harmed.

And the difference I meant in that example was one of general versus specific, that is, Snow White and the 7 Dwarfs, is an ancient fairy tale. Certain *appearances* and dialog of the girl and dwarves are IP, but the idea is not. The idea of Donkey Kong is inherently attached to the code that creates the game.

I believe there is no 'right' reason to pirate. Virtually everything you would want to pirate, can be found if you're willing to pay the price.
And yes, pirating games even those that are OOP can have an effect on the purchasing of current games. How many people here find themselves having trouble paying 40-50 for a game because you're so good at getting them for 5-15? Now imagine if every game you wanted, you could download for free. You might have more money, but you'd have less time to play them or any you'd buy, and you'd have 'trouble' buying games when you got them 'for free.'

So to summarize:
The only pro-piracy arguments are:
Piracy is ok if it's for games that are not released new and are too expensive for my cheap ass.
Piracy is ok if, man, you know, it's *really* hard to find that game.

[dtcarson]

I don't believe in playing 'backups' for modern systems. That said, I don't care if someone uses MAME or an NES emulator. Doesn't hurt me one bit. Midway Arcade Treasures has sold well, which shows that MAME doesn't hurt sales. For many people, emulation is the only way they will ever be able to play Japanese games. Check my collection, I thousands of games and yet I still use Nester DC for the Dreamcast because it's the most effective way to play famicom games that never reached America.


So it's okay, since it doesn't affect you?

I do believe Emulation is a good way to keep old games from fading into the sunset. That said, I think it's awful that websites have ROMs for GBA games. I think it's awful that people get mod chips for the sake of playing bootleg PS2 games. That hurts the industry. Why steal Grand Theft Auto 3 when it's only $20?

Because 0 is less than 20, and as we've seen here, it's all about the dollar, even from those who constantly rail about evil Ebay or evil EB. The difference between 20 bucks and 200 bucks is one of quantity, not of kind.

That's my feelings on it. I use emulation because games like Eggerland Mystery Revival never came out in the United States. But if they came out tomorrow, I would buy it and never play the emulator again. If I found a used copy of it for sale, I would buy it. Emulation should be a means to playing a game you could otherwise never play. Only in that instance is it acceptable.

You can always find a way to play. Lik-Sang, Buy-Rite, PlayAsia, many other places sell imported games and systems. And again, the internet has made it quite possible to find these things very easily, whereas only 10 yeras ago, you might have to know someone who lives or goes to Japan.

[Hereticked]

Someone could *always* profit on the original work, as was stated by the pro-pirates above

*bzzzzt*

Wrong.

Once a work becomes part of the commons, that is no longer a problem.

Do you see any books of Shakespeares works going for hundreds of dollars?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074347712X/qid=1107383877/sr=8-2/ref=pd_csp_2/103-5698973-9527028?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

"Washington Square Press" isnt profiting off of Shakespeares work, they're merely providing a service so you can own a copy of something that you could just as easily get off the internet for free or borrow from the library.

And thats the way it should be.


If the copyright on Suikoden II died, everyone would be able to legally get a copy and there would be no way to profit off it anymore.

[evilmax17]

dt:

Or you could borrow it for free from your friend. Or the internet. Go back and see my post about "value" as it pertains to burned games.

I equate imports with OOP games. As far as the game companies are concerned, we're never supposed to know that imported games even exist. They aren't released here, and they've designed their consoles to stop us from playing them. Your "you can find a way to play" arguement, that would include modding your console no? How is this OK? Wouldn't burning a copy of a game that "isn't available to you" finding a way to play?

But really, see my post about the value of burned games.

[dtcarson]

They're making *absolutely* no money off it? I find that difficult to believe. 4.99 is probably still more than their costs. It doesn't have to be 'hundreds of dollars' to be a profit.
If I'm getting it from the library, hate to tell you, it's not free. My 11000 in annual property taxes go to fund that library.
And I said someone 'could' always profit, not 'does' always profit.

[Hereticked]

They're making *absolutely* no money off it? I find that difficult to believe. 4.99 is probably still more than their costs. It doesn't have to be 'hundreds of dollars' to be a profit.
If I'm getting it from the library, hate to tell you, it's not free. My 11000 in annual property taxes go to fund that library.
And I said someone 'could' always profit, not 'does' always profit.

They are making a small profit (obviously), but its from the service they are providing, not the content of the work.

The fact that the content is now free prevents them from making money off Shakespeares corpse.

[dtcarson]

Or you could borrow it for free from your friend. Or the internet. Go back and see my post about "value" as it pertains to burned games.

I equate imports with OOP games. As far as the game companies are concerned, we're never supposed to know that imported games even exist. They aren't released here, and they've designed their consoles to stop us from playing them. Your "you can find a way to play" arguement, that would include modding your console no? How is this OK? Wouldn't burning a copy of a game that "isn't available to you" finding a way to play?

But really, see my post about the value of burned games.

But they do exist. And AFAIK, it's not illegal to play an import. You are buying a product that is for sale [assuming it's legitimately for sale, not produced by the Hong Kong mafia or whatever]. I'm sorry, after 'you can find a way to play' should be inferred 'without piracy or stealing.' Sure, the console manufacturers try to place roadblocks in the way of imports. As is their right. You don't have to buy their console, you can buy the Japanese or UK version if you want.
Value doesn't matter, except as it pertains to the buyer and the seller.

[dtcarson]

They're making *absolutely* no money off it? I find that difficult to believe. 4.99 is probably still more than their costs. It doesn't have to be 'hundreds of dollars' to be a profit.
If I'm getting it from the library, hate to tell you, it's not free. My 11000 in annual property taxes go to fund that library.
And I said someone 'could' always profit, not 'does' always profit.

They are making a small profit (obviously), but its from the service they are providing, not the content of the work.

The fact that the content is now free prevents them from making money off Shakespeares corpse.

Hate to tell you, they are making money off Shakespeare's corpse. If I buy Much Ado About Nothing from them, they're printing it, Willie Shakes wrote it. Hence, they are profiting from him. I never said it was from the content or the service, but if I'm interested in Shakespeare and only Shakespeare, and buy from them, obviously they are profiting off his work.

[Survivor Charlie]

You can always find a way to play. Lik-Sang, Buy-Rite, PlayAsia, many other places sell imported games and systems. And again, the internet has made it quite possible to find these things very easily, whereas only 10 yeras ago, you might have to know someone who lives or goes to Japan.

Your argument is that we should go to Buy-Rite, the biggests thieves and con artists in the history of video game retail. Sorry, that's not a good way to make your point.

[dtcarson]

You can always find a way to play. Lik-Sang, Buy-Rite, PlayAsia, many other places sell imported games and systems. And again, the internet has made it quite possible to find these things very easily, whereas only 10 yeras ago, you might have to know someone who lives or goes to Japan.

Your argument is that we should go to Buy-Rite, the biggests thieves and con artists in the history of video game retail. Sorry, that's not a good way to make your point.

The point is still valid. I chose Buy Rite because I know they sell imports, I don't do imports, so I don't know where else they could be bought. The fact they aren't a very good business has nothing to do with what they sell. How aboutLikSang? PlayAsia?
My argument was that there are legitimate sources to easily buy import games and systems. If BuyRite are crooks, and they sell US games as well, your 'logic' implies we shouldn't buy any games at all because one vendor of them is crooked. I got sick once off eating seafood, so I shouldn't eat food at all, by your logic.

Fine. Erase BuyRite and insert in its place
Tronixweb
VideoGameDepot
NCSX
TheRage
Jandaman
NewAgeConsoles

Thanks, you proved my point. A five second Google turned up multiple places where these imports are easily available.

And if the original question is morality, not legality [which it is], I personally thinking buying imports is more moral than pirating games, new or old, standard or OOP.

[Kayden]

Someone could *always* profit on the original work, as was stated by the pro-pirates above [see: my music references.]

That is irrelevant.

Some things are wrong, even if no one is directly harmed.

And the difference I meant in that example was one of general versus specific, that is, Snow White and the 7 Dwarfs, is an ancient fairy tale. Certain *appearances* and dialog of the girl and dwarves are IP, but the idea is not. The idea of Donkey Kong is inherently attached to the code that creates the game.

I believe there is no 'right' reason to pirate. Virtually everything you would want to pirate, can be found if you're willing to pay the price.
And yes, pirating games even those that are OOP can have an effect on the purchasing of current games. How many people here find themselves having trouble paying 40-50 for a game because you're so good at getting them for 5-15? Now imagine if every game you wanted, you could download for free. You might have more money, but you'd have less time to play them or any you'd buy, and you'd have 'trouble' buying games when you got them 'for free.'

So to summarize:
The only pro-piracy arguments are:
Piracy is ok if it's for games that are not released new and are too expensive for my cheap ass.
Piracy is ok if, man, you know, it's *really* hard to find that game.


When I was a poor confused middle schooller I used to pirate PSX games. Now I find myself buying the games I already have copies of because I want to actually own them. I beat a copy of Wild Arms 4 years ago... Two days ago I just bought it. I enjoyed the game so much, I bought Wild Arms III as soon as it came out. A purchase I probably wouldn't have made with out the pirated copy. Playing a copy of a game makes me more willing to buy the game than had I not played it at all... unless of course I hated it... In which case I shattered the CD. ...I'm looking at you Alundra...

I downloaded StarCraft years ago. As soon as I finished the first campain I ran right out and bought it and the expansion. I still have it today and love it to death....

Sure, it's about saving money... Its like an enhanced, full featured demo. Pirating games may hurt the industry... but in the case of Tomb Raider... I don't think thats a bad thing. Almost every game I've pirated and kept I've purchased. The ones I didn't like I got rid of. There is also a game I cant find anywhere called Metal Fatigue (7+ years old)... I finally found it for download somewhere... come to find out, the game wont run for beans. So I deleted the download. Not only did it save me from losing money... but it kept me from supporting crap.

[Hereticked]

Hate to tell you, they are making money off Shakespeare's corpse. If I buy Much Ado About Nothing from them, they're printing it, Willie Shakes wrote it. Hence, they are profiting from him. I never said it was from the content or the service, but if I'm interested in Shakespeare and only Shakespeare, and buy from them, obviously they are profiting off his work.

No, they are profitting from the service, not the content.

The fact that anyone can publish it negates the ability to profit off the work itself. The product will always be driven down to at cost, or barely above cost. Therefore they are profitting off some pages, ink and a cover, not the content of the work.

[Survivor Charlie]

I own authetic copies of over 100 imported games for a wide range of systems. If I can find it, I buy it. Some games you will never find no matter how hard you look. And I support emulation only for classic machines and arcade machines. Midway Arcade Treasures, Activision Anthology, Atari Anthology, and Namco Classics all sold well, along with those plug-and-play controllers. That's all the proof you need that MAME doesn't hurt the industry. If anything, it helps it.

[dtcarson]

Hate to tell you, they are making money off Shakespeare's corpse. If I buy Much Ado About Nothing from them, they're printing it, Willie Shakes wrote it. Hence, they are profiting from him. I never said it was from the content or the service, but if I'm interested in Shakespeare and only Shakespeare, and buy from them, obviously they are profiting off his work.

No, they are profitting from the service, not the content.

The fact that anyone can publish it negates the ability to profit off the work itself. The product will always be driven down to at cost, or barely above cost. Therefore they are profitting off some pages, ink and a cover, not the content of the work.

They are *absolutely* profiting off Shakespeare. I don't buy from them because of the cool cover, I buy from them because of the content. If I don't want to read Shakespeare, I'm not going to buy their book no matter how nice the printing is or how black the ink is. Without Shakespeare, they would not have that item for sale. Assuredly, they would sell some other titles, so it's more accurate to say they are profiting off Shakespeare and Dickens and Wilde etc, they vary their offerings, but without those authors, they would have nothing to sell.
And again, the issue of 'does the original creator profit' does not affect the question 'is piracy moral'.
And the amount or percent of profit, again, is irrelevant. A profit is a profit, and all businesses [and people] want to maximize their profit/dollar.

[evilmax17]

I own authetic copies of over 100 imported games for a wide range of systems. If I can find it, I buy it. Some games you will never find no matter how hard you look. And I support emulation only for classic machines and arcade machines. Midway Arcade Treasures, Activision Anthology, Atari Anthology, and Namco Classics all sold well, along with those plug-and-play controllers. That's all the proof you need that MAME doesn't hurt the industry. If anything, it helps it.

Just out of curiousity, why do YOU think that is? Why would MAT and NC still do well despite MAME, but that principle wouldn't apply to old (or hell, even current) console games?

Just curious?

[Kayden]

You can always find a way to play. Lik-Sang, Buy-Rite, PlayAsia, many other places sell imported games and systems. And again, the internet has made it quite possible to find these things very easily, whereas only 10 yeras ago, you might have to know someone who lives or goes to Japan.

Your argument is that we should go to Buy-Rite, the biggests thieves and con artists in the history of video game retail. Sorry, that's not a good way to make your point.

Now, no one ever said doing the 'right' thing was cheap...


dtcarson... are you some kind of... ... I don't even know how to say it... moral zealot? You're so ferverant about this its like your parents were killed by pirates... The Hong Kong kind... not the eye patch 'arrrrggg' kind...

[dtcarson]

I own authetic copies of over 100 imported games for a wide range of systems. If I can find it, I buy it.

Good for you. [serious, not sarcastic].

ISome games you will never find no matter how hard you look. .

I find this difficult to believe. Do you mean 'some games you will never find for a cheap price no matter how hard you look.'

IAnd I support emulation only for classic machines and arcade machines. Midway Arcade Treasures, Activision Anthology, Atari Anthology, and Namco Classics all sold well, along with those plug-and-play controllers. That's all the proof you need that MAME doesn't hurt the industry. If anything, it helps it.

MAME, though big on the internet, I believe has a much smaller active fanbase than the potential audience for those games-in-a-controller sets, or the anthology disks. I would be interested in seeing relative numbers on sales/downloads of each, and if the userbases bisected or not.

[Kayden]

Hate to tell you, they are making money off Shakespeare's corpse. If I buy Much Ado About Nothing from them, they're printing it, Willie Shakes wrote it. Hence, they are profiting from him. I never said it was from the content or the service, but if I'm interested in Shakespeare and only Shakespeare, and buy from them, obviously they are profiting off his work.

No, they are profitting from the service, not the content.

The fact that anyone can publish it negates the ability to profit off the work itself. The product will always be driven down to at cost, or barely above cost. Therefore they are profitting off some pages, ink and a cover, not the content of the work.

They are *absolutely* profiting off Shakespeare. I don't buy from them because of the cool cover, I buy from them because of the content. If I don't want to read Shakespeare, I'm not going to buy their book no matter how nice the printing is or how black the ink is. Without Shakespeare, they would not have that item for sale. Assuredly, they would sell some other titles, so it's more accurate to say they are profiting off Shakespeare and Dickens and Wilde etc, they vary their offerings, but without those authors, they would have nothing to sell.
And again, the issue of 'does the original creator profit' does not affect the question 'is piracy moral'.
And the amount or percent of profit, again, is irrelevant. A profit is a profit, and all businesses [and people] want to maximize their profit/dollar.

I really think you're missing his point.

They aren't selling Shakespeare as their work for $40 a book. They are making money from his work, but they are not making cheap knock offs or gouging prices or stealing his work. The basis of their price is to recoupe the expense of the materials and to get some profit for the actual task.
To compare this to games...

CAG could get together and start copying old PSX games. We'd sell them for like $5 to cover disks, other materials, time, effort, etc. We wouldn't be saying we made Parasite Eve 2, we'd just be offering a copy of it... ofcourse, this would require Squeenix to be dead for about 1000 years... :roll:

[dtcarson]

dtcarson... are you some kind of... ... I don't even know how to say it... moral zealot? You're so ferverant about this its like your parents were killed by pirates... The Hong Kong kind... not the eye patch 'arrrrggg' kind...

I could flip the question, and ask if your parents were killed by evil capitalists or G-Men or something.
No, my parents taught me some things are right, some things are wrong, you shouldn't steal, and to respect the work of others.
I have beliefs, some of which are very strongly held, and while I generally don't try to 'force' them on others, in open discussions, especially where it was solicited, I certainly will try to debate and defend and support them as best I can.
I have pirated games before, I'm not a holy man. And much of what I said above applied to me as well [I bought fewer games, I enjoyed them less, I got real cheap for a long time, etc]. I never, however, thought I was doing the 'right' thing. I knew it was stealing/wrong, and admitted to myself that I was doing it because I was cheap.
That's what gets me, these defensive manuevers, these excuses, [It doesn't hurt anybody, No one's profiting, Poor me, I can't get the game any other way, etc], rather than just saying 'Hey, I want all the games I can get, so I'm going to pirate them.' That, again, is wrong, but at least it's 'honest.' That dishonesty, and they hypocricy of saying 'I want to stretch my dollar, but it's not ok for anyone else to maximise their profit.'

[dtcarson]

I really think you're missing his point.

They aren't selling Shakespeare as their work for $40 a book. They are making money from his work, but they are not making cheap knock offs or gouging prices or stealing his work. The basis of their price is to recoupe the expense of the materials and to get some profit for the actual task.
To compare this to games...

CAG could get together and start copying old PSX games. We'd sell them for like $5 to cover disks, other materials, time, effort, etc. We wouldn't be saying we made Parasite Eve 2, we'd just be offering a copy of it... ofcourse, this would require Squeenix to be dead for about 1000 years... :roll:

I don't even remember where WS came in, but his main argument seemed to be 'he's dead, no one's profiting off his work' which isabsolutely not true. Probably not a whole lot of profit, but there is profit., that would not be realized if they weren't selling Shakespeare [or a version therof.]

[evilmax17]

I'll say again that this topic has been a real treat in terms of discussion. There has been so little name calling or "sinking down" in 100 posts, which is pretty cool.

I have a question for dt:

I forget the name of it, but there was a fighting game for the Neo Geo that recently sold for over %$10,000 on eBay. I think they literally only made 5 or so copies. I think it might have been Kizuna Encounter.

Now, i'm not talking about legality. But would YOU personally consider it morally reasonable to "pirate" this game for your own home use?

[Hereticked]

They are *absolutely* profiting off Shakespeare. I don't buy from them because of the cool cover, I buy from them because of the content.

No, you buy it because you want a handy dandy pocket version of it to carry around or you want a copy for your shelf. Therefore, you are buying their service.

The content itself is free, both to the company publishing it and to you (if you so choose instead of buying that copy).


And again, the issue of 'does the original creator profit' does not affect the question 'is piracy moral'.

I never said it did. I said it was a more important issue and I bought it up because I get sick of people talking about ownership, profit, and the joys of capitalism without understanding the larger issues.

As far as piracy goes, of course its illegal as long as the copyright is still active. What we need to do is regulate those copyrights better.

Moral? Thats a matter of opinion.

[Kayden]

I own authetic copies of over 100 imported games for a wide range of systems. If I can find it, I buy it.

Good for you. [serious, not sarcastic].

ISome games you will never find no matter how hard you look. .

I find this difficult to believe. Do you mean 'some games you will never find for a cheap price no matter how hard you look.'

IAnd I support emulation only for classic machines and arcade machines. Midway Arcade Treasures, Activision Anthology, Atari Anthology, and Namco Classics all sold well, along with those plug-and-play controllers. That's all the proof you need that MAME doesn't hurt the industry. If anything, it helps it.

MAME, though big on the internet, I believe has a much smaller active fanbase than the potential audience for those games-in-a-controller sets, or the anthology disks. I would be interested in seeing relative numbers on sales/downloads of each, and if the userbases bisected or not.

As does pirating in general!

How many people know how to solder? Circumvent copy protection? Override hardware checks? Not much of the general population can do that. It takes a lot of effort to learn, and even after you know what you're doing, it's still easier to just fork out if its reasonably available.

Don't give me the crap about reasonable being an issue of point of view. I think we can all agree that $200 is rediculous for a single game.

Blah, blah, blah, Supply, blah, blah demand.... yea, We understand that people charge what some are willing to spend... well, say Billy Gates and all the other rich people decide to start buying toasters for $1000... the just really fucking love toast. It's not a lot to them, but since they can readily pay it and they have no shortage of money... That leaves us with a problem. Now all these vendors are demanding some of the cash supply. So they start making $1000 toasters. What happens to us? We get stuck with bread! Fairly unreasonable... but the principle is there. Just because some people have money shooting out their ass, doesn't mean we all do.

Does that mean we can steal what we can't afford? No, but just like $1000 is unreasonable for a toaster, $200 is unreasonable for a game.

[snotnose_colossal]

I dont see why people care this much either way. If I copy a game I dont care what people say since they arent going to stop me anyway. And if I pay $200 for a game I dont care either cause nobody gave me a better deal. So I wish people would stop all the whinning.

[dtcarson]

Unreasonable for you, perhaps. [Me too, I wouldn't pay a grand for a toaster.]
Who really needs a 5000-square-foot house that costs 675k? Certainly not an unmarried couple with no kids and no close family. Yet my coworker, in that precise situation, bought that exact house. Obviously she thought it was reasonable.
There are lots of 500k+ plus houses. There are also lots of 85-200k houses for those of us [me] who don't want nor can't afford that manse.
Reasonable-ness of cost is left to the invididual consumer. But that *does not excuse* piracy. They are two different issues. it's as wrong to pirate a 5 -buck game as it as a 10k game.
200 bucks--How much was Steel Battalion? Didn't the 3D0 sell for 700 bucks when it was first released?

Hereticked--I am buying their service, but i wouldn't buy it if it wasn't Shakespeare. Therefore, at least for my sale, I am buying Shakespeare.

evilmax: 10k game. Morally 'reasonable?' No. Tempting? If i liked the fighting genre, perhaps. It would be cool to have, certainly, even a burned copy. But I would still admit it was 'wrong.'
That rarity is part of why that game was 'worth' 10k for someone.

Oh, i agree, piracy is a pain in the ass to actually do. But again, that doesn't excuse it. Don't get bogged down in details. Very few people murder, but murder is still wrong.

[Kayden]

That's what gets me, these defensive manuevers, these excuses, [It doesn't hurt anybody, No one's profiting, Poor me, I can't get the game any other way, etc], rather than just saying 'Hey, I want all the games I can get, so I'm going to pirate them.' That, again, is wrong, but at least it's 'honest.' That dishonesty, and they hypocricy of saying 'I want to stretch my dollar, but it's not ok for anyone else to maximise their profit.'

I didn't start most of those reasons, I just argued on behalf of them. As for wanting all the games I can get... thats not why I copy a game. If I want a game and I can find it B&M or online for a good price (what I believe it to be worth) then I BUY it. Don't get me wrong, I love my Suikoden II... but I sure as hell would never pay anything over $100 for it. Also, I don't want to pay 100 for Valkyrie Profile... So I copied that. Thats not like saying if I want a BMW that retailed for $40K, but now goes for 60k and I cant afford $60k I should steal one. It sounds similar, but there are many makes and models of BMWs... all in all, I'd wind up driving my $1k 1993 Lumina. Conversely... its like wanting Suikoden II... but then getting Legend of Dragoon because I can afford it... LoD is... *shiver* horrible... it's... just not the same.

[Hereticked]

Hereticked--I am buying their service, but i wouldn't buy it if it wasn't Shakespeare. Therefore, at least for my sale, I am buying Shakespeare.

Nope.

The reason you're buying the service does not = what you are actually buying. The fact remains that you're paying for the service, not the content.

Since it is now part of the commons, the content is free for everyone. If it wasn't, they wouldn't be able to sell you a little copy of it for 4.99 and make a 50 cent profit on paper and ink.


I really think you're missing his point.

The basis of their price is to recoupe the expense of the materials and to get some profit for the actual task.

He'll get it eventually. :P

[cheapass Gundam]

Blah, blah, blah, Supply, blah, blah demand.... yea, We understand that people charge what some are willing to spend... well, say Billy Gates and all the other rich people decide to start buying toasters for $1000... the just really shaq-fuing love toast. It's not a lot to them, but since they can readily pay it and they have no shortage of money... That leaves us with a problem. Now all these vendors are demanding some of the cash supply. So they start making $1000 toasters. What happens to us? We get stuck with bread! Fairly unreasonable... but the principle is there. Just because some people have money shooting out their ass, doesn't mean we all do.

Does that mean we can steal what we can't afford? No, but just like $1000 is unreasonable for a toaster, $200 is unreasonable for a game.

That's a horrible example. I am sure some enterprising company will make "regular joe edition" toasters to fill the void, just like how we all drive rice rockets while Bill Gates flies in style.

If you put all that time and effort on whining into a 2nd job, you would have made enough money to buy yourself a copy of high-priced Suikoden II by now. :wink:

[Kayden]

Blah, blah, blah, Supply, blah, blah demand.... yea, We understand that people charge what some are willing to spend... well, say Billy Gates and all the other rich people decide to start buying toasters for $1000... the just really shaq-fuing love toast. It's not a lot to them, but since they can readily pay it and they have no shortage of money... That leaves us with a problem. Now all these vendors are demanding some of the cash supply. So they start making $1000 toasters. What happens to us? We get stuck with bread! Fairly unreasonable... but the principle is there. Just because some people have money shooting out their ass, doesn't mean we all do.

Does that mean we can steal what we can't afford? No, but just like $1000 is unreasonable for a toaster, $200 is unreasonable for a game.

That's a horrible example. I am sure some enterprising company will make "regular joe edition" toasters to fill the void, just like how we all drive rice rockets while Bill Gates flies in style.

If you put all that time and effort on whining into a 2nd job, you would have made enough money to buy yourself a copy of high-priced Suikoden II by now. :wink:

But I already have a mint copy I paid 15 for....

[evilmax17]

I think I understand dt's point of view now. It doesn't matter if piracy affects a great number of people, or even anybody at all. It's that the inherent action or pirating is wrong, and that even if it doesn't have any consequences, it's still wrong.

Not that I agree with it, but I think I get where you're coming from.

[Survivor Charlie]

Now, no one ever said doing the 'right' thing was cheap...


I didn't mean Buy-Rite is expensive. I mean they take your money and don't send you anything. For every good experience with them there are hundreds who have said they are terrible. Check the BBB rating on them. It's awful.

Just out of curiousity, why do YOU think that is? Why would MAT and NC still do well despite MAME, but that principle wouldn't apply to old (or hell, even current) console games?

Well, I think people like authetic releases. I play MAME, and have full ROM sets for it, but I also own MAT, Namco Museum, Atari Anthology, etc... personally I don't like playing games with my face a foot away from the monitor. There are also issues with authenticty that i think many gamers care about, and hence the brisk sales of MAT and the likes. It's hard to get a good game of Rampart going a maximum two feet away from a PC. It's much easier on a television, using wavebirds. That's just my opinion. I love having games like Tron or Burger Time on my PC, but if someone released them for a console I would snap them up. I always do.

The difference between emulating Atari, NES, Arcade machines, and other classic systems and coping PS2 and X-Box is really simple. When you buy a brand new game for the PS2, sony makes money off of it. The company that made it makes money. On the other hand, bidding and winning a $500 copy of Stadium Events for the NES nets Nintendo and Bandai a whopping $0.00. If the company that made it makes no money, is buying used games too taboo? Of course not.

If a person makes a bootleg copy of Grand Theft Auto 3, then I would consider that taking it too far. The game is still profitable, the company still makes royalties off of it, and it's avaible nationwide in any store. You can't walk into a Target and buy an arcade deck of Tron, or a famicom game. That's the difference, and it's just my opinion.

Survivor Charlie wrote:
ISome games you will never find no matter how hard you look. .


I find this difficult to believe. Do you mean 'some games you will never find for a cheap price no matter how hard you look.'


No, some games you will NEVER find. You will NEVER find a copy of California Raisens for the NES. Why? Because it never came out. Emulation gives people a chance to play it. You will NEVER find a copy of Video Life for the Atari 2600, a game that's worth thousands of dollars. And if you did, the company that made it, which has long since closed down, will not make any money off of it. You will NEVER IN YOUR LIFE see thousands of games, more then you will ever know. They will never appear on ebay. You will not find them in a garage sale. I don't see what the big deal is on playing an emulated version of them.

[epobirs]

That's what gets me, these defensive manuevers, these excuses, [It doesn't hurt anybody, No one's profiting, Poor me, I can't get the game any other way, etc], rather than just saying 'Hey, I want all the games I can get, so I'm going to pirate them.' That, again, is wrong, but at least it's 'honest.' That dishonesty, and they hypocricy of saying 'I want to stretch my dollar, but it's not ok for anyone else to maximise their profit.'

I didn't start most of those reasons, I just argued on behalf of them. As for wanting all the games I can get... thats not why I copy a game. If I want a game and I can find it B&M or online for a good price (what I believe it to be worth) then I BUY it. Don't get me wrong, I love my Suikoden II... but I sure as hell would never pay anything over $100 for it. Also, I don't want to pay 100 for Valkyrie Profile... So I copied that. Thats not like saying if I want a BMW that retailed for $40K, but now goes for 60k and I cant afford $60k I should steal one. It sounds similar, but there are many makes and models of BMWs... all in all, I'd wind up driving my $1k 1993 Lumina. Conversely... its like wanting Suikoden II... but then getting Legend of Dragoon because I can afford it... LoD is... *shiver* horrible... it's... just not the same.

If you copied Valkyrie Profile and are asking us after the fact whether it was wrong, I think you already know the answer and are trying to get others to let you off the hook. No absolution here, bud. You were flat out wrong. This wasn't the formula for a life-saving drug, this was a friggin' toy and you threw a tantrum because it was out of your reach.

If a product acquires an unacceptably high price due to limited supply but its originator could easily increase the supply for the original or lower price, there is only one correct course of action. You must appeal to the owner of the IP to produce more of the product, using the exhorbitant resale value of the item as evidence that this would be worthwhile investment for the IP owner. This has in fact happened in Japan where a new release of Valkyrie Profile is in the works.

Numerous games long out of print have been revivied or remade on newer systems. Dragon Force from the Saturn is also making a comeback in an upgraded form. Apparently some people are more honest and made their desires known to IP owners rather than behaving like grabby children.

[dtcarson]

That's a horrible example. I am sure some enterprising company will make "regular joe edition" toasters to fill the void, just like how we all drive rice rockets while Bill Gates flies in style.


Or the aftermarket will work in the opposite direction. You'll see 1000$ toasters going for 40 bucks on Ebay. Anyone ever bought a Rainbow vacuum? They want like 1000-2000 if you buy them new. They're on Ebay for hundreds less.

Oh, and we already have the Gates toaster:
http://www.i4u.com/article2731.html
1.1 million yen.

evilmax17: That is exactly it. I believe taking something that's not yours, without paying for it, is wrong, be that stealing a car, pickpocketing a wallet, or pirating a game. Everything else in this thread has struck me as 'Well, yeah, but....' excuses and rationalizations. The original question was, 'Do you believe it's moral to pirate games?' My answer: No.

Hereticked: sigh. The content is free [or public domain]. If I want to buy Shakespeare, and I buy it from them, I am buying it because it's Shakespeare and bound. Very few people would buy a book solely because of its binding, if htey weren't interested in the content. I like DVD's but I don't buy every dvd solely because of the format, I buy them for the content.
And actually, according to Ian Lancashire
Department of English, "the 1623 and three later folio editions, and all the quarto versions, of Shakespeare's plays and poems are still not available in un-copy-protected electronic texts on the network....hakespeare's works, altered silently or emended on explicit grounds, may be obtained commercially or freely in electronic form, but not the originals from which every one of these editions must flow. Trevor Howard-Hill's old-spelling versions in the Oxford Text Archive come closest to these originals, but a charge is still made for them, their copyright status is unclear, and they do not render the typography of the originals"

[help1]

I think emulation should be used as a demo.

[cheapass Gundam]

But I already have a mint copy I paid 15 for....

:applause: What are you here complaining about?! Put it on eBay and reap the profits already! Unless you question whether it's the right thing to do so after burning a copy for yourself...

[Kayden]

Oh damn... and I was so hoping youd forgive me and pardon all my other sins while you were at it...
Get over yourself, please. I have better things to do than seek approval. I was merely wondering what all of you think. Truth be told, I wasn't even thinking about my VP until the middle of the thread. I started this because I just thought of it while looking at the $200 game thread.

'Right' or 'wrong' I really don't care whether any of you deem it appropriet.

I know its illegal, such a horrible crime too... copying a game the creator doesn't even sell anymore... I'd like to think our government has better things to do rather than hastle nostolgic gamers... Like pedos... or compnanies that incorporate outside the US to get tax breaks...


If you copied Valkyrie Profile and are asking us after the fact whether it was wrong, I think you already know the answer and are trying to get others to let you off the hook. No absolution here, bud. You were flat out wrong. This wasn't the formula for a life-saving drug, this was a friggin' toy and you threw a tantrum because it was out of your reach.

If a product acquires an unacceptably high price due to limited supply but its originator could easily increase the supply for the original or lower price, there is only one correct course of action. You must appeal to the owner of the IP to produce more of the product, using the exhorbitant resale value of the item as evidence that this would be worthwhile investment for the IP owner. This has in fact happened in Japan where a new release of Valkyrie Profile is in the works.

Numerous games long out of print have been revivied or remade on newer systems. Dragon Force from the Saturn is also making a comeback in an upgraded form. Apparently some people are more honest and made their desires known to IP owners rather than behaving like grabby children.

[Kayden]

But I already have a mint copy I paid 15 for....

:applause: What are you here complaining about?! Put it on eBay and reap the profits already! Unless you question whether it's the right thing to do so after burning a copy for yourself...

No.... I love my Suikoden II... I'd put my first born on ebay first... probably get more too...

[dtcarson]

No, some games you will NEVER find. You will NEVER find a copy of California Raisens for the NES. Why? Because it never came out. Emulation gives people a chance to play it. You will NEVER find a copy of Video Life for the Atari 2600, a game that's worth thousands of dollars. And if you did, the company that made it, which has long since closed down, will not make any money off of it. You will NEVER IN YOUR LIFE see thousands of games, more then you will ever know. They will never appear on ebay. You will not find them in a garage sale. I don't see what the big deal is on playing an emulated version of them.

You won't find a legimitate copy of Thrill Kill, or the collected science fiction stories of Shakespeare either, because they don't exist. That's a slightly silly argument, and hardly representative of the bigger issue.
Five seconds on Google:
"Should anybody have an Odyssey 3 unit and software for trade: please contact me. I'd be willing to trade some very rare items for that one (for example: Video Life for Atari 2600)."

99% of them could be found, if you look long enough and have enough money. And again, it doesn't MATTER if the original company is going to make money off it.

Kayden: Some of us are of higher moral evolution, and believe some things are wrong, regardless if you get caught or not. Some of us, apparently, work on the lowest level of moral evolution [if I get caught/hurt, it's bad]. And if we do do them, at least we're honest and don't try to rationalize or make excuses for it. I guess that's what this thread has shown us.

Oh, and if the tax breaks are built in to the system, I applaud the company for [legally] taking advantage of them. I would think you would too, since theyr'e saying 'My tax bill is too high, I don't want to pay it.' Ironically, if they follow the laws,loopholes and all, they're more moral than you are.

[evilmax17]

I'd put my first born on ebay first... probably get more too...

PM'd

[Hereticked]

Hereticked: sigh. The content is free [or public domain]. If I want to buy Shakespeare, and I buy it from them, I am buying it because it's Shakespeare and bound. Very few people would buy a book solely because of its binding

You're paying for the service.... THE LABOR. Not just the binding.

The content is the reason you're buying it but not what you are actually paying for because the content is free to everyone.


Comparing it to DVDs is just silly because the copyrights on those DVDs haven't expired and thats the very essence of what we're discussing.

[zionoverfire]

I've never really cared about people copying old games, what I do care is that people keep that shit off the site. CAG is supported financially through affiliates like EB and GS, having topics and discussions on burning and copying may give them the wrong impression about this site and cause the affiliation to be terminated.

[Survivor Charlie]

dtcarson, then I seriously hope you do not own a VCR or TIVO, or have ever used Napster or any other file sharing program, because you are taking things that don't belong to you and using them for your own personal use.

Really, emulation is no different then using a VCR to taping the Super Bowl without the express writen concent of the NFL.

[evilmax17]

I've never really cared about people copying old games, what I do care is that people keep that shit off the site. CAG is supported financially through affiliates like EB and GS, having topics and discussions on burning and copying may give them the wrong impression about this site and cause the affiliation to be terminated.

:roll:

And the dozens of topics about how "EB is the devil for selling used games as new" or "Gamestop employees are the dumbest people on the planet" aren't? It's just a philosophical discussion, and not talking about it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Don't worry about it.

[dtcarson]

Hereticked: sigh. The content is free [or public domain]. If I want to buy Shakespeare, and I buy it from them, I am buying it because it's Shakespeare and bound. Very few people would buy a book solely because of its binding

You're paying for the service.... THE LABOR. Not just the binding.

The content is the reason you're buying it but not what you are actually paying for because the content is free to everyone.


Comparing it to DVDs is just silly because the copyrights on those DVDs haven't expired and thats the very essence of what we're discussing.

No it's not.
"where to do yous stand on the issue of copies? "
is what we are discussing. As I have stated, I believe making pirated copies of games, OOP or not, new or old, expensive or not, is wrong. Someone else brought up copyright, and profit, etc. Length of copyright is a whole other discussion.

The content is the reason I'm buying it. Yes. Thus, if that publisher didn't offer that content, *regardless how much, if anything, it cost them to get it*, I wouldn't buy from them. I wouldn't buy a blank book from them, no matter how hard they worked or how nice the binding was.

[epobirs]

It also should be noted that piracy screws over people with a legitimate interest in purchasing authentic releases from the IP holder.

IF a product released in a small quantity originally acquires a high resale value the publisher can take this as a n indication that bringing further units to market is warranted. Since many publishers of hard to find items are small and have little excess capital they have to be very sure the investment is merited. The high-priced traffic could tunr out to be a tiny group of consumer whose interest in the product is grossly out of proportion with nearly every other potential buyer in existence. So this can be very hard to track. Consumers notifying the publisher directly of their interest makes a difference.

Often the publisher has information not known to the consumers who cannot understand why they won't do a reissue. The original publication may have been very poorly received and heavily discounted by the publisher before the production was finally gone. A number of high priced 'rare' item did horribly in the retail channel. They would have had ample supplies in the form of further production orders if the initial run hadn't done so badly and required markdown just to be rid of.

When ever I see a list of games commanding high prices on eBay I always note that I'd purchased many of them at blowout prices new at retail. Suikoden I & II? Turkeys in the NA market. Got them both for well under $20 at TRU. Rhapsody? Horrible. Nobody cared until the company's later titles became cult hits. This didn't make Rhapsody retroactively good, it just made it desired by collectors. Wal-mart sold it to me for $10. I happily sold it for over $100 unopened after realizing it wasn't worth playing if I could sell it for enough to buy several much better games.

Private property is a critically important part of our society. Without it there is little certainty or security in life except at the government's whim. Respect for private property means you don't like your morals slip just because you see a shiny toy.

[Kayden]

No, some games you will NEVER find. You will NEVER find a copy of California Raisens for the NES. Why? Because it never came out. Emulation gives people a chance to play it. You will NEVER find a copy of Video Life for the Atari 2600, a game that's worth thousands of dollars. And if you did, the company that made it, which has long since closed down, will not make any money off of it. You will NEVER IN YOUR LIFE see thousands of games, more then you will ever know. They will never appear on ebay. You will not find them in a garage sale. I don't see what the big deal is on playing an emulated version of them.

You won't find a legimitate copy of Thrill Kill, or the collected science fiction stories of Shakespeare either, because they don't exist. That's a slightly silly argument, and hardly representative of the bigger issue.
Five seconds on Google:
"Should anybody have an Odyssey 3 unit and software for trade: please contact me. I'd be willing to trade some very rare items for that one (for example: Video Life for Atari 2600)."

99% of them could be found, if you look long enough and have enough money. And again, it doesn't MATTER if the original company is going to make money off it.

Kayden: Some of us are of higher moral evolution, and believe some things are wrong, regardless if you get caught or not. Some of us, apparently, work on the lowest level of moral evolution [if I get caught/hurt, it's bad]. And if we do do them, at least we're honest and don't try to rationalize or make excuses for it. I guess that's what this thread has shown us.

Oh, and if the tax breaks are built in to the system, I applaud the company for [legally] taking advantage of them. I would think you would too, since theyr'e saying 'My tax bill is too high, I don't want to pay it.' Ironically, if they follow the laws,loopholes and all, they're more moral than you are.

I really dont like the evolution conotation... I'd say moral elevation. I have morals, and I don't consider copying a game that is for the most part abbandoned against them.

I'm not trying to justify me copying a game, I'm giving you the reason I did it. I don't care if you deem it justifiable.

As for the corporate loopholes... crap like that is only instituted for the rich... Middle/lower class people try that and the IRS will nail their asses to the wall for tax evasion.

I know this is going to sound 'everyone's doing it' but why the hell should II care about who I potentially screw over? Thats what this country is all about. Half of this country would kick their mother for a dollar... the other half already has. Corporate involvement in government... corruption... I could bitch about this for hours... but thats a different thread all together.

[Survivor Charlie]

is what we are discussing. As I have stated, I believe making pirated copies of games, OOP or not, new or old, expensive or not, is wrong. Someone else brought up copyright, and profit, etc. Length of copyright is a whole other discussion.

Then you are against the use of the VCR. It's no different. Those copies of Sex in the City you taped off of TV are bootlegs. Your cheap ass could have bought the DVD. You took the money out of HBO's hands.

There is no way to not be hypocritical in this discussion. If you've ever used a VCR to tape anything but home movies shot with a camcorder, you've done the same thing anyone who copies a Playstation game for personal use has done. Would I personally copy a Playstation game? No, I would want the real game with the real book and real instructions, like anyother game on any system. I do my best (check my collection) but I'm only one man with a limited amount of money. I'm not going to get all holier then thou like you're acting.

I don't like the idea of bootlegging games that came out in this decade. I don't use emulation for any US released games, with the exception of MAME. Do I think it's wrong to bootleg Playstation games? Yes, to a certain degree. But I'm not going to act self-rightous over it. I'm no better then anyone else here.

People are cheap. It's in their nature. If a person makes bootleg PS games for personal use only, then let them live with it. Don't act like you're better then them. If you've ever taped a show off of TV, you're a hypocrite for acting self-rightous over someone else coping a Playstation game. Ever snuck into a movie? Hypocrite. Ever copied the text off a website onto an internet message board? Hypocrite. Ever watched a video tape copied off of TV? Hypocrite.

Bootlegs hurt the industry, but selling bootlegs is worse. And last I checked, this thread isn't about selling bootlegs.

[dtcarson]

dtcarson, then I seriously hope you do not own a VCR or TIVO, or have ever used Napster or any other file sharing program, because you are taking things that don't belong to you and using them for your own personal use.

Really, emulation is no different then using a VCR to taping the Super Bowl without the express writen concent of the NFL.

I certainly have used those things. Napster went to hell long ago, however. And I admit now, and did then, dl'ing things from Napster was illegal and immoral.

However, I love my DVR. It's certainly legal to use, as long as I don't recopy, manipulate, sell, etc.

"Technically it is legal for you to posses a copy of a TV program for non-commercial use as long as you paid for the medium that supplied it. "

"PVR companies are basing business plans on the Supreme Court Betamax case that allowed consumers to tape TV product for their private use"

And moral as well, I own [or lease] the media it's on [the DVR and thecable pipe], so I can watch it when I want.

[dtcarson]

is what we are discussing. As I have stated, I believe making pirated copies of games, OOP or not, new or old, expensive or not, is wrong. Someone else brought up copyright, and profit, etc. Length of copyright is a whole other discussion.

Then you are against the use of the VCR. It's no different. Those copies of Sex in the City you taped off of TV are bootlegs. Your cheap ass could have bought the DVD. You took the money out of HBO's hands.

There is no way to not be hypocritical in this discussion. If you've ever used a VCR to tape anything but home movies shot with a camcorder, you've done the same thing anyone who copies a Playstation game for personal use has done. Would I personally copy a Playstation game? No, I would want the real game with the real book and real instructions, like anyother game on any system. I do my best (check my collection) but I'm only one man with a limited amount of money. I'm not going to get all holier then thou like you're acting.

I don't like the idea of bootlegging games that came out in this decade. I don't use emulation for any US released games, with the exception of MAME. Do I think it's wrong to bootleg Playstation games? Yes, to a certain degree. Am I going to act like you, a self-rightous asshole? No. I'm no better or worse then anyone here.

Hey, I can degrade too.
Fuck off.
The difference is, I said I did it, and admitted it was wrong. Unlike you people who are trying to blame the evil moneymaker or those bad capitalists with lousy excuses which translate to 'I'm too cheap or lazy to look for the legit copy.'

And I don't watch Sex and the City.

[Kayden]

If the company doesn't release a greater volume then they only have their self to blame. After 5 years I think its a little late for Konami to say oh yea... that first batch was a test run... And if the title had poor market value and they didn't want to waste money producing more... then they're just aiding to the reason to copy it. Think about it... if they only released a few because they didn't think they'd sell well... and then found that the few they put out didn't sell well... do you think they're going to make an extra copy for one person? No. I'm not saying its the green flag to copy it, but if they decided to not sell anymore copies anyways, how are you really hurting them? You can still pester them to make more while playing your copy so you can get the full complete deliciousness.

It also should be noted that piracy screws over people with a legitimate interest in purchasing authentic releases from the IP holder.

IF a product released in a small quantity originally acquires a high resale value the publisher can take this as a n indication that bringing further units to market is warranted. Since many publishers of hard to find items are small and have little excess capital they have to be very sure the investment is merited. The high-priced traffic could tunr out to be a tiny group of consumer whose interest in the product is grossly out of proportion with nearly every other potential buyer in existence. So this can be very hard to track. Consumers notifying the publisher directly of their interest makes a difference.

Often the publisher has information not known to the consumers who cannot understand why they won't do a reissue. The original publication may have been very poorly received and heavily discounted by the publisher before the production was finally gone. A number of high priced 'rare' item did horribly in the retail channel. They would have had ample supplies in the form of further production orders if the initial run hadn't done so badly and required markdown just to be rid of.

When ever I see a list of games commanding high prices on eBay I always note that I'd purchased many of them at blowout prices new at retail. Suikoden I & II? Turkeys in the NA market. Got them both for well under $20 at TRU. Rhapsody? Horrible. Nobody cared until the company's later titles became cult hits. This didn't make Rhapsody retroactively good, it just made it desired by collectors. Wal-mart sold it to me for $10. I happily sold it for over $100 unopened after realizing it wasn't worth playing if I could sell it for enough to buy several much better games.

Private property is a critically important part of our society. Without it there is little certainty or security in life except at the government's whim. Respect for private property means you don't like your morals slip just because you see a shiny toy.

[epobirs]

dtcarson, then I seriously hope you do not own a VCR or TIVO, or have ever used Napster or any other file sharing program, because you are taking things that don't belong to you and using them for your own personal use.

Really, emulation is no different then using a VCR to taping the Super Bowl without the express writen concent of the NFL.

No, the Supreme Court ruled on this a long time ago. Time shifting of broadcast TV does not constitute piracy. You end up recordingt he commercials along with the show. It has absolutely no releation to the blatant taking of copyrighted material done on filesharing networks.

The reason broadcasters are vexed by TiVo isn't the time shifting aspect but rather the ease of skipping commericals, which is their revenue channel. My RePlayTV makes it even easier, skipping commercial automatically with fairly good accuracy. How broadcasters will evolve to deal with the growing popularity of DVRs is a story in progress. It is one of the reasons VOD has become so important to them.

Emulation does not resemble timeshifting in the least. If you have not purchased an embodiment of the software authorized by the IP owner you have zero right to use the software. No purchase, no license. It doesn't have to be a purchase directly from the publisher or their retailers but it has to be a disc or cart that was produced for that purpose.

[Kayden]

Hey, I can degrade too.
shaq-fu off.
The difference is, I said I did it, and admitted it was wrong. Unlike you people who are trying to blame the evil moneymaker or those bad capitalists with lousy excuses which translate to 'I'm too cheap or lazy to look for the legit copy.'


Hey... I said no such thing... I said I'm too cheap to BUY the legit copy... I'm plenty able to look =)

I'm not blaming the ebay bastards. I'd probably like to get every penny I could too... I'm poor. What I did say was that I am not willing to submit to THEIR outrageous pricing. :P

I'm bad, I'm cheap, what ever. I buy the games I like, and I don't feel bad about copying a game I might want to test it. If companies would actually finish games once in a while the customer wouldn't need to be so aprehensive... again, another issue.

[dtcarson]

No, some games you will NEVER find. You will NEVER find a copy of California Raisens for the NES. Why? Because it never came out. Emulation gives people a chance to play it. You will NEVER find a copy of Video Life for the Atari 2600, a game that's worth thousands of dollars. And if you did, the company that made it, which has long since closed down, will not make any money off of it. You will NEVER IN YOUR LIFE see thousands of games, more then you will ever know. They will never appear on ebay. You will not find them in a garage sale. I don't see what the big deal is on playing an emulated version of them.

You won't find a legimitate copy of Thrill Kill, or the collected science fiction stories of Shakespeare either, because they don't exist. That's a slightly silly argument, and hardly representative of the bigger issue.
Five seconds on Google:
"Should anybody have an Odyssey 3 unit and software for trade: please contact me. I'd be willing to trade some very rare items for that one (for example: Video Life for Atari 2600)."

99% of them could be found, if you look long enough and have enough money. And again, it doesn't MATTER if the original company is going to make money off it.

Kayden: Some of us are of higher moral evolution, and believe some things are wrong, regardless if you get caught or not. Some of us, apparently, work on the lowest level of moral evolution [if I get caught/hurt, it's bad]. And if we do do them, at least we're honest and don't try to rationalize or make excuses for it. I guess that's what this thread has shown us.

Oh, and if the tax breaks are built in to the system, I applaud the company for [legally] taking advantage of them. I would think you would too, since theyr'e saying 'My tax bill is too high, I don't want to pay it.' Ironically, if they follow the laws,loopholes and all, they're more moral than you are.

I really dont like the evolution conotation... I'd say moral elevation. I have morals, and I don't consider copying a game that is for the most part abbandoned against them.

I'm not trying to justify me copying a game, I'm giving you the reason I did it. I don't care if you deem it justifiable.

As for the corporate loopholes... crap like that is only instituted for the rich... Middle/lower class people try that and the IRS will nail their asses to the wall for tax evasion.

I know this is going to sound 'everyone's doing it' but why the hell should II care about who I potentially screw over? Thats what this country is all about. Half of this country would kick their mother for a dollar... the other half already has. Corporate involvement in government... corruption... I could bitch about this for hours... but thats a different thread all together.

I can't find a source, but I recall in HS we discussed the stages of moral evolution, and that's what they were called. Level one or two was 'I won't do this because it hurts or I get in trouble'
Here it is, Five Stages of Moral Development:

1 The earliest stage typifies the young infant who is good in order to insure mother's love. More generally, one is good because one depends on external rewards.
2 At the second stage, one is good in order to avoid punishment. Examples are the child who obeys just to avoid spankings and the church-goer who is good only to escape the everlasting torments of hell.
3 The primary motive at the third stage is social approval within one's primary group. The teenager who conforms to his or her own peer group standards of behavior makes an obvious example. Not much progress is achieved if this individual switches allegiance to specific adult groups at a later age.
4 The fourth stage shows a concern for social order or community stability. One might refrain from cheating on an income tax return because chaos would result if everyone cheated.
5 At the highest stage of moral development, individuals choose right actions because these satisfy intrinsic ideals of justice. An example might be the Buddhist saying: Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful. Mahatma Gandhi's principle of nonviolence suggests another example. Noteworthy at this stage is the fact that standards are held whether or not other people sit in judgment.

Second level, I'm sorry.

Tax loopholes? There are tax loopholes for everyone, I'm saving ~2k on taxes due to a 'loophole.' If you don't like them, tell your congresscritter, and don't forget to vote. A corporate loophole that helps my company, helps me in the long run.

I personally wouldn't screw over my mother for a dollar, or for many dollar.s

[Survivor Charlie]

I hate people like you dtcarson. You act so much holier then everyone else. When you do something that is wrong, it was an 'honest mistake' or "I was young" or "I was a bad person at the time" or "that is DIFFERENT" or "that was a long time ago".

No, it's not. You're a hypocrite. He copied a Playstation game? Well you used Napster at least once. It's the same exact thing. I'm glad you admit to it. Next all you have to do is admit that you're not better then anyone else and you will be on the right track. Meanwhile, let me know when Discs of Tron comes out for a console or handheld. Meanwhile, I'll be playing it on MAME, surrounded by my game collection that has cost me over $1,000,000 to put together while I cry to myself about how I've robbed the game industry.

[Hereticked]

"where to do yous stand on the issue of copies? "
is what we are discussing.

No, that's what you're discussing. Not I.

I brought up a seperate issue, although it does have some relevance to the overall topic when you view things in the long term.

If you can't handle two different discussions then don't engage in more than one at a time.

The content is the reason I'm buying it. Yes. Thus, if that publisher didn't offer that content, *regardless how much, if anything, it cost them to get it*, I wouldn't buy from them. I wouldn't buy a blank book from them, no matter how hard they worked or how nice the binding was.

The product is not theres to sell. They don't own it. They are providing you a service which you are paying for. When you buy that 4.99 copy of Shakespeare they are profiting off their own labor and whatever deal they were able to work for the cost of materials. Since the source of their profit is not coming from the work itself, but by providing a handy version of something that is otherwise free, you cannot say that they are profiting from the work.

Well, you can, but it's logically inconsistent.


Some of us are of higher moral evolution, and believe some things are wrong, regardless if you get caught or not. Some of us, apparently, work on the lowest level of moral evolution [if I get caught/hurt, it's bad]. And if we do do them, at least we're honest and don't try to rationalize or make excuses for it. I guess that's what this thread has shown us.

The only thing you've shown us in this thread (from that statement in particular) is that some people like to paint questions of morality in pure black and white.

"True" and "false" are absolutes, "right" and "wrong" are not.

Sorry, life's not that simple.

[Survivor Charlie]

"True" and "false" are absolutes, "right" and "wrong" are not.

Sorry, life's not that simple.

Exactly. I couldn't have put it better myself.

[fragmanslayer]

All this money put into videogames... how many of us would be well off had we put that money into savings/mutual funds... I know I would have at least 2-300K not taking into account compounding interest. Thats alot of F'ing money on plastic, electronics, and time spent on simple enjoyment.

[Kayden]

Actually... NO.
I'm not good to avoid punishment... that my view of a lot of society... but the things I do, I do because I believe in them. If heaven does exist I'd like to think I'd be judged more by the way I treated others fairly and respectfully, rather than the way I tried to save a few bills on a game by copying it when it was OOP for 10 years... Sorry, just because its legally wrong, I don't find anything morally wrong with it. If the President of Working Designs handed me a copy of Lunar I'd pay $100 to support their awesome work. However, I will not pay $200 to some ebayer looking to turn a quick profit.
~trimmed~

I can't find a source, but I recall in HS we discussed the stages of moral evolution, and that's what they were called. Level one or two was 'I won't do this because it hurts or I get in trouble'
Here it is, Five Stages of Moral Development:

1 The earliest stage typifies the young infant who is good in order to insure mother's love. More generally, one is good because one depends on external rewards.
2 At the second stage, one is good in order to avoid punishment. Examples are the child who obeys just to avoid spankings and the church-goer who is good only to escape the everlasting torments of hell.
3 The primary motive at the third stage is social approval within one's primary group. The teenager who conforms to his or her own peer group standards of behavior makes an obvious example. Not much progress is achieved if this individual switches allegiance to specific adult groups at a later age.
4 The fourth stage shows a concern for social order or community stability. One might refrain from cheating on an income tax return because chaos would result if everyone cheated.
5 At the highest stage of moral development, individuals choose right actions because these satisfy intrinsic ideals of justice. An example might be the Buddhist saying: Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful. Mahatma Gandhi's principle of nonviolence suggests another example. Noteworthy at this stage is the fact that standards are held whether or not other people sit in judgment.

Second level, I'm sorry.

Tax loopholes? There are tax loopholes for everyone, I'm saving ~2k on taxes due to a 'loophole.' If you don't like them, tell your congresscritter, and don't forget to vote. A corporate loophole that helps my company, helps me in the long run.

I personally wouldn't screw over my mother for a dollar, or for many dollar.s

[Kayden]

All this money put into videogames... how many of us would be well off had we put that money into savings/mutual funds... I know I would have at least 2-300K not taking into account compounding interest. Thats alot of F'ing money on plastic, electronics, and time spent on simple enjoyment.

You only go around once... might as well have fun, eh? :beer: \:D/ :bouncy:

[epobirs]

If the company doesn't release a greater volume then they only have their self to blame. After 5 years I think its a little late for Konami to say oh yea... that first batch was a test run... And if the title had poor market value and they didn't want to waste money producing more... then they're just aiding to the reason to copy it. Think about it... if they only released a few because they didn't think they'd sell well... and then found that the few they put out didn't sell well... do you think they're going to make an extra copy for one person? No. I'm not saying its the green flag to copy it, but if they decided to not sell anymore copies anyways, how are you really hurting them? You can still pester them to make more while playing your copy so you can get the full complete deliciousness.

It also should be noted that piracy screws over people with a legitimate interest in purchasing authentic releases from the IP holder.

IF a product released in a small quantity originally acquires a high resale value the publisher can take this as a n indication that bringing further units to market is warranted. Since many publishers of hard to find items are small and have little excess capital they have to be very sure the investment is merited. The high-priced traffic could tunr out to be a tiny group of consumer whose interest in the product is grossly out of proportion with nearly every other potential buyer in existence. So this can be very hard to track. Consumers notifying the publisher directly of their interest makes a difference.

Often the publisher has information not known to the consumers who cannot understand why they won't do a reissue. The original publication may have been very poorly received and heavily discounted by the publisher before the production was finally gone. A number of high priced 'rare' item did horribly in the retail channel. They would have had ample supplies in the form of further production orders if the initial run hadn't done so badly and required markdown just to be rid of.

When ever I see a list of games commanding high prices on eBay I always note that I'd purchased many of them at blowout prices new at retail. Suikoden I & II? Turkeys in the NA market. Got them both for well under $20 at TRU. Rhapsody? Horrible. Nobody cared until the company's later titles became cult hits. This didn't make Rhapsody retroactively good, it just made it desired by collectors. Wal-mart sold it to me for $10. I happily sold it for over $100 unopened after realizing it wasn't worth playing if I could sell it for enough to buy several much better games.

Private property is a critically important part of our society. Without it there is little certainty or security in life except at the government's whim. Respect for private property means you don't like your morals slip just because you see a shiny toy.

Bullshit. You're using situational ethics.

What part of PRIVATE PROPERTY do you not understand?

You have no basis to go steal another's property, including IP with you supplying the molecules to embody it, just because you do not like the price. Konami could go around buying up and destroying every copy of Suikoden they could find and this would give you no moral basis for copying the game without Konami's express permission. It's theirs. They can keep it to themselves if they like and you can only complain but not decide that the rules don't apply just this one time.

Saying it 'isn't a green flag' is complete bull on your part since you've made it completely obvious that you do in fact believe this is acceptable. The fact is you wanted a toy you couldn't afford so you took it.

There is another alternative. If an IP owner does not wish to produce more of a product and does not regard it as having future value, they are free to place it in the public domain. At this point it can be freely copied and even sold but the formal declaration or a legal finding is require. If no IP owner can be produced within a set time frame most nations have rules by which the product then enters the public domain. (Much of the films used on MST3K fall under this condition.)

An IP owner choosing not to make their product available is not permission for wouldbe consumer to violate their ownership. Disney has a longrunning policy of releasing their classics and then cutting off production for several years. This was especially effective for VHS tapes since children tended to watch them many, many times. This tended to wear out the tapes and ensure there wasn't a flood of used copies competing with the next release of the movie by the time that occurred. Sometimes this meant it was impossible to find a copy of Snow White if the desire arose at the middle of a cycle. Does this give parents an excuse to make illegal copies of Snow White. Absolutely not.

[dtcarson]

Hey, I can degrade too.
shaq-fu off.
The difference is, I said I did it, and admitted it was wrong. Unlike you people who are trying to blame the evil moneymaker or those bad capitalists with lousy excuses which translate to 'I'm too cheap or lazy to look for the legit copy.'


Hey... I said no such thing... I said I'm too cheap to BUY the legit copy... I'm plenty able to look =)

I'm not blaming the ebay bastards. I'd probably like to get every penny I could too... I'm poor. What I did say was that I am not willing to submit to THEIR outrageous pricing. :P

I'm bad, I'm cheap, what ever. I buy the games I like, and I don't feel bad about copying a game I might want to test it. If companies would actually finish games once in a while the customer wouldn't need to be so aprehensive... again, another issue.

Fine. That's the first honest post from a pirate I've seen in this thread. While I won't pirate even if I can't afford the game, I can 'understand' that thinking while not condoning it.

Saying I did something that was wrong, and admitting it was wrong, makes me a holier-than-thou hypocrite? Wow, I thought that made me honest. And I have been discussing the basic question, not attacking any single person or calling names until I was attacked.

How can you say it's irrelevant what they are selling? If I'm buying Shakespeare, what they are selling is the MOST relevant thing in the world They will make no sales if they don't sell what people are willing to buy.

There are some absolutes in right and wrong. Like I said earlier, slavery, child molestation, stealing, murder. Are wrong. Sometimes they're the *least* wrong of possible choices, but they're still wrong. There is room for debate on many issues, but there are still some absolutes.

Why will you not pay 200 on Ebay? Is it because its 200, or because its Ebay? Would you pay 100 direct from Vic, or 75 on Ebay?

[epobirs]

Actually... NO.
I'm not good to avoid punishment... that my view of a lot of society... but the things I do, I do because I believe in them. If heaven does exist I'd like to think I'd be judged more by the way I treated others fairly and respectfully, rather than the way I tried to save a few bills on a game by copying it when it was OOP for 10 years... Sorry, just because its legally wrong, I don't find anything morally wrong with it. If the President of Working Designs handed me a copy of Lunar I'd pay $100 to support their awesome work. However, I will not pay $200 to some ebayer looking to turn a quick profit.
~trimmed~

I can't find a source, but I recall in HS we discussed the stages of moral evolution, and that's what they were called. Level one or two was 'I won't do this because it hurts or I get in trouble'
Here it is, Five Stages of Moral Development:

1 The earliest stage typifies the young infant who is good in order to insure mother's love. More generally, one is good because one depends on external rewards.
2 At the second stage, one is good in order to avoid punishment. Examples are the child who obeys just to avoid spankings and the church-goer who is good only to escape the everlasting torments of hell.
3 The primary motive at the third stage is social approval within one's primary group. The teenager who conforms to his or her own peer group standards of behavior makes an obvious example. Not much progress is achieved if this individual switches allegiance to specific adult groups at a later age.
4 The fourth stage shows a concern for social order or community stability. One might refrain from cheating on an income tax return because chaos would result if everyone cheated.
5 At the highest stage of moral development, individuals choose right actions because these satisfy intrinsic ideals of justice. An example might be the Buddhist saying: Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful. Mahatma Gandhi's principle of nonviolence suggests another example. Noteworthy at this stage is the fact that standards are held whether or not other people sit in judgment.

Second level, I'm sorry.

Tax loopholes? There are tax loopholes for everyone, I'm saving ~2k on taxes due to a 'loophole.' If you don't like them, tell your congresscritter, and don't forget to vote. A corporate loophole that helps my company, helps me in the long run.

I personally wouldn't screw over my mother for a dollar, or for many dollar.s

The question remains, why didn't you just buy the thing at reatil when it was readily available for a much lower price? I wouldn't give Vic Ireland a penny over the SRP he originally set for the product.

[dtcarson]

I personally thought Rhapsody was a pretty light, cute, fun game. Not FFT-level, but worth a rental. Had I known the demand would have skyrocketed, I would have bought it [hindsight is 20/20, they say[].

[Hereticked]

If the company doesn't release a greater volume then they only have their self to blame. After 5 years I think its a little late for Konami to say oh yea... that first batch was a test run... And if the title had poor market value and they didn't want to waste money producing more... then they're just aiding to the reason to copy it. Think about it... if they only released a few because they didn't think they'd sell well... and then found that the few they put out didn't sell well... do you think they're going to make an extra copy for one person? No. I'm not saying its the green flag to copy it, but if they decided to not sell anymore copies anyways, how are you really hurting them? You can still pester them to make more while playing your copy so you can get the full complete deliciousness.

Bullshit. You're using situational ethics.

What part of PRIVATE PROPERTY do you not understand?

You have no basis to go steal another's property, including IP with you supplying the molecules to embody it, just because you do not like the price. Konami could go around buying up and destroying every copy of Suikoden they could find and this would give you no moral basis for copying the game without Konami's express permission. It's theirs. They can keep it to themselves if they like and you can only complain but not decide that the rules don't apply just this one time.

Saying it 'isn't a green flag' is complete bull on your part since you've made it completely obvious that you do in fact believe this is acceptable. The fact is you wanted a toy you couldn't afford so you took it.

There is another alternative. If an IP owner does not wish to produce more of a product and does not regard it as having future value, they are free to place it in the public domain. At this point it can be freely copied and even sold but the formal declaration or a legal finding is require. If no IP owner can be produced within a set time frame most nations have rules by which the product then enters the public domain. (Much of the films used on MST3K fall under this condition.)

An IP owner choosing not to make their product available is not permission for wouldbe consumer to violate their ownership. Disney has a longrunning policy of releasing their classics and then cutting off production for several years. This was especially effective for VHS tapes since children tended to watch them many, many times. This tended to wear out the tapes and ensure there wasn't a flood of used copies competing with the next release of the movie by the time that occurred. Sometimes this meant it was impossible to find a copy of Snow White if the desire arose at the middle of a cycle. Does this give parents an excuse to make illegal copies of Snow White. Absolutely not.


Your argument is sound, but I hope you understand that you can be found equally (or more) repugnant for being so obsessed with "property" as anyone who makes an illegal copy of a videogame or movie.

Basing your morals on laws of property and finance is quite frankly..... mental illness, in my opinion.

[dtcarson]

I hate people like you dtcarson. You act so much holier then everyone else. When you do something that is wrong, it was an 'honest mistake' or "I was young" or "I was a bad person at the time" or "that is DIFFERENT" or "that was a long time ago".

No, it's not. You're a hypocrite. He copied a Playstation game? Well you used Napster at least once. It's the same exact thing. I'm glad you admit to it. Next all you have to do is admit that you're not better then anyone else and you will be on the right track. Meanwhile, let me know when Discs of Tron comes out for a console or handheld. Meanwhile, I'll be playing it on MAME, surrounded by my game collection that has cost me over $1,000,000 to put together while I cry to myself about how I've robbed the game industry.

Did I ever say I was better than everyone else? Thank you for inferring such, but I stated no such thing.

[Kayden]

*yawn*.... Really... do you read at all? I didn't say it was legal. What I said is they are more or less bringing it upon themselves. I didn't say I'm Robin Hood. Also, I really don't see how you link paying inflated ebay prices to supporting the developer. Buying used games does nothing for the developer.

So... take a deep breath, calm down, extinguish your little flaming booties and actually read what I say.

I know, me bad, bad Kayden, bad! Copying games... intelectual property.. yadda yadda. I'm not saying I'm right, nor that its ok. I'm saying I wont pay $200 for a used game.


Bullshit. You're using situational ethics.

What part of PRIVATE PROPERTY do you not understand?

You have no basis to go steal another's property, including IP with you supplying the molecules to embody it, just because you do not like the price. Konami could go around buying up and destroying every copy of Suikoden they could find and this would give you no moral basis for copying the game without Konami's express permission. It's theirs. They can keep it to themselves if they like and you can only complain but not decide that the rules don't apply just this one time.

Saying it 'isn't a green flag' is complete bull on your part since you've made it completely obvious that you do in fact believe this is acceptable. The fact is you wanted a toy you couldn't afford so you took it.

There is another alternative. If an IP owner does not wish to produce more of a product and does not regard it as having future value, they are free to place it in the public domain. At this point it can be freely copied and even sold but the formal declaration or a legal finding is require. If no IP owner can be produced within a set time frame most nations have rules by which the product then enters the public domain. (Much of the films used on MST3K fall under this condition.)

An IP owner choosing not to make their product available is not permission for wouldbe consumer to violate their ownership. Disney has a longrunning policy of releasing their classics and then cutting off production for several years. This was especially effective for VHS tapes since children tended to watch them many, many times. This tended to wear out the tapes and ensure there wasn't a flood of used copies competing with the next release of the movie by the time that occurred. Sometimes this meant it was impossible to find a copy of Snow White if the desire arose at the middle of a cycle. Does this give parents an excuse to make illegal copies of Snow White. Absolutely not.

[Kayden]

Did I ever say I was better than everyone else? Thank you for inferring such, but I stated no such thing.

That reminds me... Did I say that? I hope I did, because I want you all to know it! :lol:

As for why I didn't buy Valkyrie Profile when it came out, I didn't know about it. My Target didn't carry much for games and I was only ~15. I didn't have credit cards nor would my mom let me use hers if she had one. I didn't know of it, nor did I have a means to attain it. Is that a good enough reason?

Solid or not, epobirs's arguement is irrelavent, presumptuous and a tad offensive. Name calling and just a general badgering attitude. Also, no one said we were legally able to copy games... Hes on a tyraid whipping a dead horse about something we've already established. He's sitting in the corner screaming the sky is blue while we're trying to debate how hurricanes form.

[Survivor Charlie]

Going by his logic then we should all be ashamed for looking for the best deal for a game, instead of buying every game at full price. We're taking food out of the companies' mouths by buying a game on sale. We're such assholes.

I own somewhere around 3,000 games. The total number of those that are bootlegged are this: 3. All NES multicarts that I bought from a pawn shop in Longview, WA. Those multicarts contain games that I already own. Am I morally wrong in your book for buying a pirated game that I already own the legit version of, for the sake of enhancing my game collection?

Or what if (and I'm not saying I've done this, because I haven't)... I buy a used copy of a PS game at a garage sale and it doesn't work. It's scratched to hell and it will never work. Would making a bootleg copy that works be morally wrong, considering that I bought a non-working version for $1.00 at a garage sale? You can't give a right or wrong answer to that. It's not black and white.

[Kayden]

Actually, I can give a black and white answer to that.

I believe this is covered under the fair use act of *ahemsagrumble*
You are entitled to make any personal copies of items that you posses the original licensed copy of. Roms are perfectly legal, just as long as you own the licensed cart. As for the garagesale thing... should be covered. You have the disk, more power to ya.

And yes, we are all assholes. :lol: Just for widely varying reasons.

Going by his logic then we should all be ashamed for looking for the best deal for a game, instead of buying every game at full price. We're taking food out of the companies' mouths by buying a game on sale. We're such assholes.

I own somewhere around 3,000 games. The total number of those that are bootlegged are this: 3. All NES multicarts that I bought from a pawn shop in Longview, WA. Those multicarts contain games that I already own. Am I morally wrong in your book for buying a pirated game that I already own the legit version of, for the sake of enhancing my game collection?

Or what if (and I'm not saying I've done this, because I haven't)... I buy a used copy of a PS game at a garage sale and it doesn't work. It's scratched to hell and it will never work. Would making a bootleg copy that works be morally wrong, considering that I bought a non-working version for $1.00 at a garage sale? You can't give a right or wrong answer to that. It's not black and white.

[epobirs]

*yawn*.... Really... do you read at all? I didn't say it was legal. What I said is they are more or less bringing it upon themselves. I didn't say I'm Robin Hood. Also, I really don't see how you link paying inflated ebay prices to supporting the developer. Buying used games does nothing for the developer.

So... take a deep breath, calm down, extinguish your little flaming booties and actually read what I say.

I know, me bad, bad Kayden, bad! Copying games... intelectual property.. yadda yadda. I'm not saying I'm right, nor that its ok. I'm saying I wont pay $200 for a used game.



You still aren't facing the facts. We have laws protecting private property because it was seen as a very basic moral issue by the fiunders of this nation. Without security of property no other security could be assured. The laws are exact definitions for that moral stance.

It doesn't matter what the price is. You either pay it or do without. There is no middle ground for a toy, a luxury item. It makes no difference whether you are dealing with the IP owner or a reseller. In a seller's market the seller chooses the price.

In an earlier post you declared your poverty. How does this excuse anything? I've been poor more often than not in my life. Yet every game I ever wanted eventually turned up at a reasonable price. I'm talking $30 or less. I have a couple thousand games and only a handful of them cost me more than $20. All it took was patience. (Valkyrie Profile turned out to be much ado about nothing IMHO and I sold it for a profit. If a new release turned up for cheap I might give it another try but I've found that most rare games have a reason behind it. Their audience is rare, too.) If you cannot afford high priced luxury items, this isn't an excuse to grant yourself an exception from your normal rules and take it. If you can't afford it, work harder or learn how to perform a better paying job than you have now. If you're a kid and don't have an income, STFU. The world doesn't owe you games. If you're lusting after games with inflated prices you have too much time on your hands and need to work on school more or get a job.

[dtcarson]

As for why I didn't buy Valkyrie Profile when it came out, I didn't know about it. My Target didn't carry much for games and I was only ~15. I didn't have credit cards nor would my mom let me use hers if she had one. I didn't know of it, nor did I have a means to attain it. Is that a good enough reason?


Wow. No offense, but, um, no. Your mom wouldn't buy you something if you gave her the money? I assume you are older than 15 now. Now you can buy the game. There's lot ot stuff out there that I could buy now, that I couldn;t when I was 15, that would cost more now.

Regarding looking for deals: If a seller asks a price, and the buyer is willing to pay the price, there's no issue. Taking advantage of glitches or price errors, that's something else.

I have an emulator on my PC. I have ROMs for Sega games I have upstairs. More convenient to play on the PC [save state is excellent.]. Totally legal, and moral.

[Kayden]

Speaking of basic freedoms its people like you that make me regret the First...

Yes, I COPIED A GAME!

However, I have that very game on order as we speak. I'm not saying that I'm right, or I'm better, or more correct. I want to play the game, and I want to own it. For rareties such as this I don't really care if they happen at the same time, just so long as they both happen.

I didn't copy the game with the sole intented to leave it at that and not buy the game. I copied the game so I could 1] try it out to see if I liked it (if I didnt, I generally destroy them on the spot) 2] Have the game to play before I could own a retail copy and 3] Leave my copy sealled upon attaining it.

If I recall correctly, it is perfectly legal to have copies/roms/backups for a period of no more than 24 hours unless you own the original medium.

Do I have it for more than 24 hours? Yes... but I also have the game coming to me. Does that make it peachy? No, but is it a damnable sin? Not really... I'm not making hundreds of copies of games to sell on the street. I have a single copy of a game I want to play until I get the real deal. Look out America's Most Wanted... here comes Kayden. Not only did he copy a playstation game he will shortly own... but he also removed the tag off a matress!

Big Fucking Deal.

I'm not saying my income is justification for anything. Your knowledge of intelectual property doesn't justify you being a prick.

I say I'm poor because I'm a recent college grad and I'm between jobs, I'm not eating dirt and it is said more in jest.

*yawn*.... Really... do you read at all? I didn't say it was legal. What I said is they are more or less bringing it upon themselves. I didn't say I'm Robin Hood. Also, I really don't see how you link paying inflated ebay prices to supporting the developer. Buying used games does nothing for the developer.

So... take a deep breath, calm down, extinguish your little flaming booties and actually read what I say.

I know, me bad, bad Kayden, bad! Copying games... intelectual property.. yadda yadda. I'm not saying I'm right, nor that its ok. I'm saying I wont pay $200 for a used game.



You still aren't facing the facts. We have laws protecting private property because it was seen as a very basic moral issue by the fiunders of this nation. Without security of property no other security could be assured. The laws are exact definitions for that moral stance.

It doesn't matter what the price is. You either pay it or do without. There is no middle ground for a toy, a luxury item. It makes no difference whether you are dealing with the IP owner or a reseller. In a seller's market the seller chooses the price.

In an earlier post you declared your poverty. How does this excuse anything? I've been poor more often than not in my life. Yet every game I ever wanted eventually turned up at a reasonable price. I'm talking $30 or less. I have a couple thousand games and only a handful of them cost me more than $20. All it took was patience. (Valkyrie Profile turned out to be much ado about nothing IMHO and I sold it for a profit. If a new release turned up for cheap I might give it another try but I've found that most rare games have a reason behind it. Their audience is rare, too.) If you cannot afford high priced luxury items, this isn't an excuse to grant yourself an exception from your normal rules and take it. If you can't afford it, work harder or learn how to perform a better paying job than you have now. If you're a kid and don't have an income, STFU. The world doesn't owe you games. If you're lusting after games with inflated prices you have too much time on your hands and need to work on school more or get a job.

[epobirs]

Did I ever say I was better than everyone else? Thank you for inferring such, but I stated no such thing.

That reminds me... Did I say that? I hope I did, because I want you all to know it! :lol:

As for why I didn't buy Valkyrie Profile when it came out, I didn't know about it. My Target didn't carry much for games and I was only ~15. I didn't have credit cards nor would my mom let me use hers if she had one. I didn't know of it, nor did I have a means to attain it. Is that a good enough reason?

Solid or not, epobirs's arguement is irrelavent, presumptuous and a tad offensive. Name calling and just a general badgering attitude. Also, no one said we were legally able to copy games... Hes on a tyraid whipping a dead horse about something we've already established. He's sitting in the corner screaming the sky is blue while we're trying to debate how hurricanes form.

THe fact that your spelling is so inept suggest you need to spend less time playing games, regardless of how they're obtained. I'm supposedly whipping a dead horse but you're continuing to make the same insupportable arguments. You did something you plainly knew was wrong and then hd the nerve to be taken aback when the people you asked to verify that this was wrong said yes, it was. And I'm offensive?

And no, it's not a good enough reason. Not remotely. It's just more situational ethics. Were you illiterate at 15? The game was widely reviewed and previewed in magazines, and most mail order outlets will accept money orders. Your excuse comes down to you not paying attention at the time. How many other items of liited supply from the year 200 do you feel entitled to steal?

[Kayden]

A good enough reason to not buy the game, not to pirate it now =P

My mom was weird like that... she didn't want to give out info on the intrawebnet deallie... Even when I had the money on hand she would do it because they'd steal my everything...

Anyways... Yes, I'm 20 now, and guess what? I am buying the game! However, I'm still not paying $200. I'm paying the same $40 on Amazon that everyone else is.


As for why I didn't buy Valkyrie Profile when it came out, I didn't know about it. My Target didn't carry much for games and I was only ~15. I didn't have credit cards nor would my mom let me use hers if she had one. I didn't know of it, nor did I have a means to attain it. Is that a good enough reason?


Wow. No offense, but, um, no. Your mom wouldn't buy you something if you gave her the money? I assume you are older than 15 now. Now you can buy the game. There's lot ot stuff out there that I could buy now, that I couldn;t when I was 15, that would cost more now.

Regarding looking for deals: If a seller asks a price, and the buyer is willing to pay the price, there's no issue. Taking advantage of glitches or price errors, that's something else.

I have an emulator on my PC. I have ROMs for Sega games I have upstairs. More convenient to play on the PC [save state is excellent.]. Totally legal, and moral.

[epobirs]

Speaking of basic freedoms its people like you that make me regret the First...

Yes, I COPIED A GAME!

However, I have that very game on order as we speak. I'm not saying that I'm right, or I'm better, or more correct. I want to play the game, and I want to own it. For rareties such as this I don't really care if they happen at the same time, just so long as they both happen.

I didn't copy the game with the sole intented to leave it at that and not buy the game. I copied the game so I could 1] try it out to see if I liked it (if I didnt, I generally destroy them on the spot) 2] Have the game to play before I could own a retail copy and 3] Leave my copy sealled upon attaining it.

If I recall correctly, it is perfectly legal to have copies/roms/backups for a period of no more than 24 hours unless you own the original medium.

Do I have it for more than 24 hours? Yes... but I also have the game coming to me. Does that make it peachy? No, but is it a damnable sin? Not really... I'm not making hundreds of copies of games to sell on the street. I have a single copy of a game I want to play until I get the real deal. Look out America's Most Wanted... here comes Kayden. Not only did he copy a playstation game he will shortly own... but he also removed the tag off a matress!

Big shaq-fuing Deal.

I'm not saying my income is justification for anything. Your knowledge of intelectual property doesn't justify you being a prick.

I say I'm poor because I'm a recent college grad and I'm between jobs, I'm not eating dirt and it is said more in jest.

Somebody is forgetting who raised this question in the first place. You're getting honestly told what you already knew was true and that makes me the bad guy? Do we have acknowledgement or just whining?

No, it is not legal to copy a product for 24 hours. Whoever told you that was just peddling a rationale for piracy. On this basis it would be alright to obtain copies of virtually all movies on DVD just so long as you don't plan to watch them repeatedly.

As for trying out games before buying, there are countless sources of opinions you can consult and outlets that rent games, often with the option to apply your fee to purchasing the game if you like it.

If your poverty isn't an attempt at justification on your part, why did you bring it up? What other possible interpretation was there?

If you've already purchased the game your claim makes even less sense. Are you that much a slave to anticipation? That is kind of sad.

[epobirs]

A good enough reason to not buy the game, not to pirate it now =P

My mom was weird like that... she didn't want to give out info on the intrawebnet deallie... Even when I had the money on hand she would do it because they'd steal my everything...

Anyways... Yes, I'm 20 now, and guess what? I am buying the game! However, I'm still not paying $200. I'm paying the same $40 on Amazon that everyone else is.



So you found a decent price on the game but you're still whining about other people paying higher? Why do you care?

[Kayden]

Did I ever say I was better than everyone else? Thank you for inferring such, but I stated no such thing.

That reminds me... Did I say that? I hope I did, because I want you all to know it! :lol:

As for why I didn't buy Valkyrie Profile when it came out, I didn't know about it. My Target didn't carry much for games and I was only ~15. I didn't have credit cards nor would my mom let me use hers if she had one. I didn't know of it, nor did I have a means to attain it. Is that a good enough reason?

Solid or not, epobirs's arguement is irrelavent, presumptuous and a tad offensive. Name calling and just a general badgering attitude. Also, no one said we were legally able to copy games... Hes on a tyraid whipping a dead horse about something we've already established. He's sitting in the corner screaming the sky is blue while we're trying to debate how hurricanes form.

THe fact that your spelling is so inept suggest you need to spend less time playing games, regardless of how they're obtained. I'm supposedly whipping a dead horse but you're continuing to make the same insupportable arguments. You did something you plainly knew was wrong and then hd the nerve to be taken aback when the people you asked to verify that this was wrong said yes, it was. And I'm offensive?

And no, it's not a good enough reason. Not remotely. It's just more situational ethics. Were you illiterate at 15? The game was widely reviewed and previewed in magazines, and most mail order outlets will accept money orders. Your excuse comes down to you not paying attention at the time. How many other items of liited supply from the year 200 do you feel entitled to steal?

The year 200? I'll let that slide... Anyways...

The question was: Why didn't you pick up the game when it was offered retail?
My answer was: As for why I didn't buy Valkyrie Profile when it came out, I didn't know about it. My Target didn't carry much for games and I was only ~15. I didn't have credit cards nor would my mom let me use hers if she had one. I didn't know of it, nor did I have a means to attain it. Is that a good enough reason?

I didn't give that as my reason for pirating the game. So I was a poorly informed consumer when I was 15... point? Did you know every thing there was to know about every game coming out? As for my literacy, yes I was quite able to read you arrogant prick. I just couldn't afford all the magazines it was being reviewed in, nor did I frequent many review sites.

Oh wow... insulting my spelling... I think thats the last line of defense for trolls and flamers. So what? Spelling isn't my strongest point when I'm typing 50 words per minute. Look at your FIrst SEntance. NOone IS PErfect. HEy, I can INsuLt TYpoS TOOoO!

How am I making UNSUPPORTABLE arguments? To what are you even refering? The fact that I have the game on order? Do you want to see the email Amazon sent me? How about a screen capture? Do you claim that me saying I don't have a problem with copying this game and unsupportable arguement?

I, at no point, was surprised when people said they thought it was wrong. Nor was I seeking any sort of affirmation as to its legality or correctness. I know copying games is illegal, I however, was asking what people thought about copying a rare out of print game- not movies, new games or anything else.

Finally, yes, you are offensive. Your entire tone is belittling and belligerant. You can't seem to argue intelligently, so you argue loudly and abusively. Want proof? How many times have you insulted me? Either in form of character or purely name calling.

Not that I really care if my response appeases your righteousness... but if it doesn't you can shove it all the same.

[Kayden]

Somebody is forgetting who raised this question in the first place. You're getting honestly told what you already knew was true and that makes me the bad guy? Do we have acknowledgement or just whining?


I asked about what others considered to be the MORAL issues. You're blugeoning us forcefully with the legalities repeatedly... I already acknowledged the fact that you're right about it being illegal, what you are missing is the fact that I don't care.


No, it is not legal to copy a product for 24 hours. Whoever told you that was just peddling a rationale for piracy. On this basis it would be alright to obtain copies of virtually all movies on DVD just so long as you don't plan to watch them repeatedly.

Sorry, just like the rest of the human race, I only know what I hear and what I see. No one told me different.


As for trying out games before buying, there are countless sources of opinions you can consult and outlets that rent games, often with the option to apply your fee to purchasing the game if you like it.



You forget... I'm cheap. $8 to rent a game? Thats half the price I usually pay to own! Additionally, demos are too limited. I've played demos I loved and then hated the full game.



If your poverty isn't an attempt at justification on your part, why did you bring it up? What other possible interpretation was there?

I sense a patern of me needing to repeat myself to you. IT WAS SAID AS A JOKE! I'm not well off, but I'm not dumpster diving.


If you've already purchased the game your claim makes even less sense. Are you that much a slave to anticipation? That is kind of sad.

The fact that you're so vendictive about this is sad. Even after I acknowledge your opinion you still try to beat me senseless with it.
Firstly, I had the game copied about a month before I ordered it. I heard everyone here rave about it and decided I should pick it up. I looked at ebay and shit myself... Then I looked around and saw it was pretty rare. So i pirated it with the intent of purchasing it when I was able to get it at a reasonable price. Again, not to say it was legal, but I have no moral qualms with it seeing how I had every intent to buy it when I could. I can't control you believing me, but if I'm lying it's my soul, so why do you care? Even if I decided to pirate it after I bought it, it still makes perfect sense. I can play the game, have fun, legally own it and best of all, leave it sealed... Jez... I didn't think I was being overly cryptic. What's wrong with anticipation? Isn't it a good thing to have things to look forward to in life? Some people birdwatch... they watch tapes of the birds... they read books on the birds... Are they pathetic for being excited about actually getting to see the bird?



~~~~
Why do I care what others pay for the game?
Why do you care if I copy a game?

I don't care. The question wasn't "Why are you stupid enough to pay 200 for a game?"

I was just wondering what other people thought of copying rare games that are hard to aquire at a reasonable price.

In addition, there are other games that I don't have that cost a lot of money that I'd like. I didn't post this with any game in mind. I started using Suikoden II as a place holder, but then went to Valkyrie Profile because it is relavant to the copied rare game issue.... alteast for me.

[PsyClerk]

I asked about what others considered to be the MORAL issues. You're blugeoning us forcefully with the legalities repeatedly... I already acknowledged the fact that you're right about it being illegal, what you are missing is the fact that I don't care.

So in other words, you know it's illegal, you posted the topic knowing it's illegal, and in essence, wanted to know if others thought an illegal activity was moral? That's a bit foolish, and not what your very first post indicated.

Sorry, just like the rest of the human race, I only know what I hear and what I see. No one told me different.

You should have read the copyright laws. I'd take laws on the books over some warez site any day of the week. Like many members of the human race, you might suffer from 'selective memory.'

You forget... I'm cheap. $8 to rent a game? Thats half the price I usually pay to own! Additionally, demos are too limited. I've played demos I loved and then hated the full game.

Using this logic, why should you ever pay money for a game?

The fact that you're so vendictive about this is sad. Even after I acknowledge your opinion you still try to beat me senseless with it.

I believe it's 'vindictive,' and I don't believe that's what inspired epobirs to post. He generally knows his stuff, as evidenced by many other posts he's made. You seem to be taking it personally that he has a view diametrically opposed to yours, and that never ends well. Not on internet message boards at least.

Why do you care if I copy a game?

Because those that argue against piracy have a pretty good argument that piracy, in the end, hurts everyone, both the company that is pirated from and the regular consumers willing to pony up the dough for a normal transaction. Just ask punqsux.

I was just wondering what other people thought of copying rare games that are hard to aquire at a reasonable price.

And that's exactly what you got, people's thoughts on copying, better known as pirating. What's the problem? It always inspires strong opinions, especially on CAG. Always will, I'd wager.

Just a heads up, don't turn into one of the internet assholes who takes every opinion that's not his as a personal insult. I see the beginnings of that affliction, but you can fight it, Bayou Billy! AMERICA STILL NEEDS YOUR HELP!

[Reality's Fringe]

Point 1: Rhapsody had(has) some of the worst music I have ever heard.

Point 2: Asking if it's "ok" to bootleg old games rather than paying $200+ for them on a site called "Cheapassgamer" is akin to asking if masturbation is immoral on a porno messageboard. You'll get a few that know it's not the right direction, but aren't perfect and have done it before. However, for the most part, you get the people who want you to do it and do it often which brings me to

Point 3: I have SNES Roms on my computer, and I've burned a couple of cds before. I'm not trying to sugar-coat it or mask what it is. I don't have the cash, so I downloaded them. My problem is the fact that most of them are poor, poor transfers and end up being a mockery of the original version. Once I get the cahs, I'll proabbaly end up buying them, but then again, maybe not.

In closing, I find myself to be quite hypocritical in this situation. I have SNES roms, and a few burned cds, yet I hate it when people pirate new gen games and consistently burn cds. That's just the way it is.

[evilmax17]

So in other words, you know it's illegal, you posted the topic knowing it's illegal, and in essence, wanted to know if others thought an illegal activity was moral? That's a bit foolish, and not what your very first post indicated.

I just wanted to pop back in to say that illegal =/= immoral. Just because something is against the law in this country doesn't mean it's inherently bad. Remember prohibition?

[Kayden]

I asked about what others considered to be the MORAL issues. You're blugeoning us forcefully with the legalities repeatedly... I already acknowledged the fact that you're right about it being illegal, what you are missing is the fact that I don't care.

So in other words, you know it's illegal, you posted the topic knowing it's illegal, and in essence, wanted to know if others thought an illegal activity was moral? That's a bit foolish, and not what your very first post indicated.

Well... the tittle is Morality... :roll:
Abortion is legal... is it moral? Legal and moral are not the same, just similar.

Sorry, just like the rest of the human race, I only know what I hear and what I see. No one told me different.

You should have read the copyright laws. I'd take laws on the books over some warez site any day of the week. Like many members of the human race, you might suffer from 'selective memory.'

True for the most part... I just really hate legalese and fine print. :x
Not that its an excuse... I'm really just lazy.

You forget... I'm cheap. $8 to rent a game? Thats half the price I usually pay to own! Additionally, demos are too limited. I've played demos I loved and then hated the full game.

Using this logic, why should you ever pay money for a game?
Because I like owning the game... Paying half the game to try it for a week just isn't fiscally sound.

The fact that you're so vendictive about this is sad. Even after I acknowledge your opinion you still try to beat me senseless with it.

I believe it's 'vindictive,' and I don't believe that's what inspired epobirs to post. He generally knows his stuff, as evidenced by many other posts he's made. You seem to be taking it personally that he has a view diametrically opposed to yours, and that never ends well. Not on internet message boards at least.

Yes, my bad-vindictive. So insulting my hasty spelling and incinuating I am/was illiterate isn't a personal attack? His entire tone felt very belittling and personalized.

Why do you care if I copy a game?

Because those that argue against piracy have a pretty good argument that piracy, in the end, hurts everyone, both the company that is pirated from and the regular consumers willing to pony up the dough for a normal transaction. Just ask punqsux.

Piracy in the sense that take what ever you want when ever you can... yes, very damaging. I'm talking about the whole abandonware aspect of it. I'm not saying lets pirate Madden 2005 because its cheaper. The games have been out for 5-10+ years and the chances of rereleases are minimal. Just because it does happen in Japan doesn't mean it will happen stateside. They get A LOT of stuff we don't. What I'm wondering is who does it hurt when you make a copy of a game that the original maker doesn't even offer? Besides ebay resellers, I honestly can't tell. So far, no one can give a level headed and fair response. If everyone on this site had a pirate copy of... Croc, who would that hurt? Its a $2 game I wouldn't take if it was free. What damage would it do? Can anyone give me an answer? It has no resale value, no collectors value, and its out of print.

I was just wondering what other people thought of copying rare games that are hard to aquire at a reasonable price.

And that's exactly what you got, people's thoughts on copying, better known as pirating. What's the problem? It always inspires strong opinions, especially on CAG. Always will, I'd wager.

Just a heads up, don't turn into one of the internet assholes who takes every opinion that's not his as a personal insult. I see the beginnings of that affliction, but you can fight it, Bayou Billy! AMERICA STILL NEEDS YOUR HELP!

My problem is that epo came out really harshly. I thought I civily commented I was taking his posts personally and he offered no retraction. I just thought he was the kind that could offer his opinion, but had to force his opinion.

And I don't take posts personally unless I feel they're aimed at me. To me, his tone was very condesending.

P.S.... Bayou Billy was such a crap game! :lol: The one time I beat the driving part I lost on the boss and never played again.

P.P.S. Thanks, I appreciate you being level and objective.

[jimbodan]

I got no beef with anyone that emulates or plays backups of games. Let them do what they want.

As for myself, I think it's fair game to backup/mod/emulate any older stuff. Basically if the company isn't selling it new anymore then I have no qualms about buying a mod chip or downloading an emulator to play something rather then dropping big time cash on ebay.

Unfortunately for my pocketbook I do like to collect stuff from PS1 on so I don't have any mods/emulators for any of that. I pretty much refuse to collect old cartridge stuff due to their batteries eventually failing and I also refuse to pay the insane prices for Saturn stuff.

[PsyClerk]

Well... the tittle is Morality... :roll:
Abortion is legal... is it moral? Legal and moral are not the same, just similar.

I'm aware legal and moral are two different things. However, it's long been accepted on many web forums, including CAG, that pirating and emulation are generally Bad Things not to be spoken of except in very general discussion (I'm surprised this thread has lasted this long). Post a link to a site or ebay auction selling copies of games, or a link to a warez site offering ROMs. See how quickly it will be moderated. In other words, the answer to your question should be obvious.

Because I like owning the game... Paying half the game to try it for a week just isn't fiscally sound.

All financial transactions come with risk. You might pay $1 for a double cheeseburger at McDonalds, and end up not eating most of it because you find it repulsive. You can't expect your money back there. You might pay $8 to see Alone in the Dark and walk out when Tara Reid opens her mouth. The theater won't refund your money. You could always download the movie and see it for free, but there's that piracy thing again.

Yes, my bad-vindictive. So insulting my hasty spelling and incinuating I am/was illiterate isn't a personal attack? His entire tone felt very belittling and personalized.

I think part of that (which believe me...on CAG it could be a LOT worse) came from your apparent refusal to accept any of the arguments put forth. It's one thing to refute an argument, still another to simply say "no you're wrong" and offer no other reason.

Of course, you do know that you can ignore those parts that you feel are insulting or attacking you personally, right? Then again, skimming earlier posts, you weren't exactly Mr. Congeniality. (no relation to the Sandra Bullock vehicle of a similar name)

Piracy in the sense that take what ever you want when ever you can... yes, very damaging. I'm talking about the whole abandonware aspect of it. I'm not saying lets pirate Madden 2005 because its cheaper. The games have been out for 5-10+ years and the chances of rereleases are minimal. Just because it does happen in Japan doesn't mean it will happen stateside. They get A LOT of stuff we don't. What I'm wondering is who does it hurt when you make a copy of a game that the original maker doesn't even offer? Besides ebay resellers, I honestly can't tell. So far, no one can give a level headed and fair response. If everyone on this site had a pirate copy of... Croc, who would that hurt? Its a $2 game I wouldn't take if it was free. What damage would it do? Can anyone give me an answer? It has no resale value, no collectors value, and its out of print.

If you re-read the thread, I gave nearly the same argument in my first post. And I haven't been satsified with an answer yet either.

My problem is that epo came out really harshly. I thought I civily commented I was taking his posts personally and he offered no retraction. I just thought he was the kind that could offer his opinion, but had to force his opinion.

And I don't take posts personally unless I feel they're aimed at me. To me, his tone was very condesending.

I think epobirs might come off that way simply because he knows assloads of stuff and has a lot of experience. In his defense, however, it seems to me that you fanned the flames first. Maybe not a full on DenisDFat attack, but it was enough. Always best to just ignore stuff like that and focus on the issue being discussed (or attempting to be discussed).

Also be aware that you will not likely change anyone's mind. There are two billion examples of this on the Vs forum.

[Kayden]

*sigh*... It's not like it really matters at this point. I could say he started it.. but even if he did it would make me look juvenille all the same. So... screw it.
"Arguing online is like running in the special olympics... even if you win, you're still retarded."