Sign at pro-choice abortion rally in DC

[CheapyD]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040425/capt.sge.kix59.250404184733.photo00.default-289x400.jpg
http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/nws/th/afp_lo_1.gif

Abortion rights activists wave placards as they participate in the March for Women's Lives in Washington, DC. Thousands of activists have converged on the US capital in a show of force designed to stave off any election-year assault on women's right to choose. The March for Women's Lives was expected to attract anywhere between 500,000 and 750,000 participants, according to its organizers -- and go down in history as one of the largest and most colorful displays of unity in support for legalized abortion.(AFP/Paul J. Richards)

[Starky27]

M..Mom? :shock:

[Quackzilla]

Thats good that people are becomming more active in politics instead of bending over and taking it like communist peasants.

I hope this doesn't become another "Tiananmen square".

[DrunkTigerWoods]

Good for them, they deserve the right to choose. Its either this or its back to coat hangers and falling down stairs.

[WildWop]

I like that sign about as much as I liked the one I saw awhile back:

BUSH + DICK = FU.CK.ED (minus the .'s, so it doesn't say shaq-fued)

[E-Z-B]

My sister works at one of those gyno offices (forget what they're called). Anyway, she told me over the weekend that a soon-to-be mother who was already in her third tri-mester came into the office seeking medical help for the first time. They did some tests, and found that the baby she was carrying didn't have a brain. But because of Bush passing the "Late Term Abortion" ban, she had no choice but to deliver the baby. Needless to say, the baby eventually died sometime after birth. But this is another clear indication of our country going down the wrong path.

[snotknocker]

Touchy subject ............. I can't go there

[ZForce915]

It is a very touchy subject. But as a man I think I should say this.

We (men) cannot be making these type of decisions for women. If for no other reason than because we cannot comprehend childbirth. We think we can, but we can't.

[Steve Dave]

It is a very touchy subject. But as a man I think I should say this.

We (men) cannot be making these type of decisions for women. If for no other reason than because we cannot comprehend childbirth. We think we can, but we can't.

So the man has no say in if his child is born or not? I believe that the choice should be there but it should include the father.

If the women wanted total control over her body then she should have kept her legs closed, once she spread them I think the dad has some say in if his child should be born or not.

[JimmieMac]

On the subject of vagina,

Yes please.

That is all.

[dtcarson]

I don't necessarily agree with that comment.
Politicians and citizens make decisions and have opinions all the time about things we 'can't comphrehend.'
I have an opinion on slavery, but I'm white.
I have an opinion on abortion, and I'm male.
I have an opinion on sports, and I am definitely not a jock.
I have an opinion on murderers, but I've never murdered anyone.
I have an opinion on politics, but I'm not a politician.
We have opinions on Iraq, and Afghanistan, and the Taliban and Al Qaeda, but I am not an Iraqi, an Afghani, or a Taliban/AlQaedi.

And I can comprehend certain aspects of childbirth--i supported my wife during the nine months she carried our son, and I was in the operating room when he was born, and it was the most incredible experience I've ever had. And he's turned out to be the most important thing in our life. Yes, I think I can have an opinion on abortion.

[XboxMaster]

Aw, come on, we're not gonna have another serious back and forth thread, are we? God, these are starting to get on my nerves.......

[bmulligan]

Aw, come on, we're not gonna have another serious back and forth thread, are we? God, these are starting to get on my nerves.......

Then don't post here, DUH!

[bmulligan]

Actually, I think that woman would have a hard time finding anyone who would WANT to go in her bush.

[PsyClerk]

Abortion is one area where I disagree with the Republicans. It appears the stance stems from religion and that's one reason I don't like it.

[E-Z-B]

If the women wanted total control over her body then she should have kept her legs closed, once she spread them I think the dad has some say in if his child should be born or not.

What if it's rape? You're telling her that being a victim of that evil act wasn't enough? That now she has to carry and deliver the child as well? Hasn't her torture been enough?

[ZForce915]

I don't necessarily agree with that comment.
Politicians and citizens make decisions and have opinions all the time about things we 'can't comphrehend.'
I have an opinion on slavery, but I'm white.
I have an opinion on abortion, and I'm male.
I have an opinion on sports, and I am definitely not a jock.
I have an opinion on murderers, but I've never murdered anyone.
I have an opinion on politics, but I'm not a politician.
We have opinions on Iraq, and Afghanistan, and the Taliban and Al Qaeda, but I am not an Iraqi, an Afghani, or a Taliban/AlQaedi.

And I can comprehend certain aspects of childbirth--i supported my wife during the nine months she carried our son, and I was in the operating room when he was born, and it was the most incredible experience I've ever had. And he's turned out to be the most important thing in our life. Yes, I think I can have an opinion on abortion.

Maybe I should have been clearer. I'm not saying you can't have an opinion. You have every right to have that opinion and believe in it fully. I just think that all of your other opinions (sports, murderers...) most can grasp that situation at least a little bit. We'll (men) never understand childbirth though.

Oh and I fully support having opinions, as long as you don't make it your life goal to impose it on others. (like the religous folk that hand out pamphlets...like that is gonna change anyones view... :roll: :lol: )

[Theenternal]

Yea, this is a very touchy subject...I believe Men and Women should both have a say in the creation of life, even though men are not actually given birth. I believe in abortion in extreme cases, like the one above with the kid with no brain... However things where a woman is raped and was pregnet. Its sorta touch. I believe the Child has a right to live as its not his/her fault he was put there. But this would most likly drive the mother crazy... Id rather just pretend it doesnt happen :P

[dtcarson]

I agree, I think men and women should both have a say in it. After all, except for one alleged instance 2000+ years ago, it does take both a man and woman [or at least, certain 'donations' from each of them] to make a baby. Certainly a pregnant rape victim and a husband/wife expecting are entirely different scenarios, and in the case of rape, I'm of the opinion the rapist should no longer have many rights, including the right to keep his ****. But to lump a rape victim in the same bucket as a voluntarily promiscuous and careless woman is unfair to both.

You mean these flyers aren't doing anything? Maybe I should change the orange robe? ; )
I don't necessarily want to 'impose' my view on anyone, and really, since I am not a politician or judge, I can't.

My abortion stance doesn't come from religion. Almost any religion can be, and has been, bent to say whatever the ruling class [be it kings, presidents, clergy, etc] wants the peons to believe at that time.
I think the abortion issue has a core concept that isn't really defined--when does a 'fetus' become a 'person?' Many definitions of that are, I think, flawed--live on its own [nope, lots of people need some level of medical help to survive, include iron lungs or personal feeders, not to mention conjoined twins]; brain activity [nope--I think the Cruzan case, was it, stated brain death doesn't equal true death. Of course, I don't keep up anymore, so that might have changed with recent decisions.]
Personally, I think there is one thing that uniquely identifies every person who does, has, or ever will lived on the planet, that is only his/hers and never will be replicated--their DNA. Once the male and female cells meet, the DNA recombines into a new strand/pattern, andI think that's when 'life' beings. Not viable life, to be sure, but a separate life.

[judyjudyjudy]

Oooh... very touchy subject...

Pro-choice here, though I don't like late term abortions (except for extreme cases like dangerous births or cases like what E-Z-B mentioned). I mean, if you can't figure out you need to get an abortion in the first couple months...?

Though I admit that it can suck for a guy: a woman can have his child without his choice (since she determines whether or not she takes her birth control or gives birth). But I'd prefer having that downside over a man forcing a woman to have a baby.

[PittsburghAfterDark]

I never drank enough in my life or smoked enough pot in my life to ever want a piece of that skank. That's one ugly bitch. You know just the thought of seeing that barbed wire undergrowth she calls a bush would be enough to make most decent men hurl. I would guess the smell would charitably called "skanky" as well.

[jmcc]

This isn't a touchy subject at all. The answer is: abortions for some, miniature American flags for others.

[CTLesq]

I never drank enough in my life or smoked enough pot in my life to ever want a piece of that skank. That's one ugly bitch. You know just the thought of seeing that barbed wire undergrowth she calls a bush would be enough to make most decent men hurl. I would guess the smell would charitably called "skanky" as well.

Amen.

CTL

[-Never4ever-]

Yea, this is a very touchy subject...I believe Men and Women should both have a say in the creation of life, even though men are not actually given birth. I believe in abortion in extreme cases, like the one above with the kid with no brain... However things where a woman is raped and was pregnet. Its sorta touch. I believe the Child has a right to live as its not his/her fault he was put there. But this would most likly drive the mother crazy... Id rather just pretend it doesnt happen :P

I too am against abortion. Regardles of what any doctor tells you it's still murder.

[Steve Dave]

If the women wanted total control over her body then she should have kept her legs closed, once she spread them I think the dad has some say in if his child should be born or not.

What if it's rape? You're telling her that being a victim of that evil act wasn't enough? That now she has to carry and deliver the child as well? Hasn't her torture been enough?

Didn't think we were discussing rape. But I do like as your reason for taking away the choice of millions of dads is some very isolated incidents. So because a women may get raped and pregnant all other fathers should have no say in if their child is born or not.

If a women spreads her legs for a guy and she gets pregnant it is no longer just her choice. If she wants to keep total control over her body which she has the right too then she need to keep her legs shut. Rape being excluded.

To cut off your next argument no the father shouldn't have a say when it comes to incest either.

[drone8888]

Yeah, I was present through my son's birth, all the way.

That doesn't make it the most beautiful thing to everyone. Just the select few, who feel similar. It doesn't speak for the masses.

Just like Jesus. He isn't in everyones heart. Only too the few, who allow him in.

Me, I'm not Christian, but I've been solicited my whole life. Every time I turn one Christian away, another is right there to pick up the slack.

Its THEIR opinion, and THEIR belief, so I respectfully listen. That doesn't mean that it affected me in any way.

The same as if I tried to explain to them, my thoughts, and beliefs.

As for who we are, we did it to ourselves. We chose the President. We chose which people could sit in our Senate, and Congress.
As a matter of fact, we still have all of the power.

We just have never used it. We allow a representative, to harness all of our rage, and ideals, and use the power, we generate, to alter documents, and convince others, that what he/she speaks on behalf of we the people.

One day, we will rise up against the deceptive seniority. Even though we gave them the GIANT heads. We gave them the power, that created the massive egos, that swell, and dominate the human mind. Leaving only a bloated jackal, to do as they wish.

We will cast them back into obscurity, where they see us. Its funny. Its like the creation who is blind to the creator.

All of the movies you see, where society reaches the boiling point, and them continues to bubble over, into total maelstrom. That, will one day, become reality.

Every opressed being, eventually rises up. Animals, plants, man, and even cosmic bodies.
This world is ready to pop.

Homosexuals, feminists, nazis, black panthers, animal rights activists, all of the extremists, religious, cultural and racial, will all rise up.
Against the common man/woman.

It will be wonderful.



Anyways, that girl in the yellow shirt is Shaqing HOT!! The only one wearing a yellow shirt. SO HOT!!

[Theenternal]

Once the male and female cells meet, the DNA recombines into a new strand/pattern, andI think that's when 'life' beings. Not viable life, to be sure, but a separate life. - AGREED


I also believe in abortion choice of the mother in the case where she may die if she gives birth.

[PsyClerk]

There are no women in that photo that are even remotely hot. But hey, the rest of your post was wacko too, so it's all good.

[nikkai]

Prenatal care. It's there, use it. Freakin, I don't understand why women wait till the THIRD trimester to see if anything's wrong.

[Steve Dave]

Once the male and female cells meet, the DNA recombines into a new strand/pattern, andI think that's when 'life' beings. Not viable life, to be sure, but a separate life. - AGREED


I also believe in abortion choice of the mother in the case where she may die if she gives birth.

Yes if the mother is going to die then an abortion is a choice that should be made, but right now if the mom gets a headache during childbirth that is consider harm to the health of the mother and she can have an abortion. Yes if the mom is going to die, by all means she should have one.

[judyjudyjudy]

If a women spreads her legs for a guy and she gets pregnant it is no longer just her choice. If she wants to keep total control over her body which she has the right too then she need to keep her legs shut. Rape being excluded.


Is it the woman's fault if the condom breaks? So who makes the decision on whether or not the pregnancy goes through? A woman doesn't lose the right to her body just because she had sex (whether or not she gets pregnant). Also, sex is more than just the spreading of a woman's legs. (I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds your wording a tad bit offensive.)

Childbirth may be beautiful and all that, but the guy also doesn't have to go through the physical labors of childbirth.

[Steve Dave]

Is it the woman's fault if the condom breaks? So who makes the decision on whether or not the pregnancy goes through? A woman doesn't lose the right to her body just because she had sex (whether or not she gets pregnant). Also, sex is more than just the spreading of a woman's legs. (I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds your wording a tad bit offensive.)

Childbirth may be beautiful and all that, but the guy also doesn't have to go through the physical labors of childbirth.

Awww childbirth is just so painful, poor you. I can name you one think that is definatly more painful than childbirth and that is burying your son or daughter.

It is no ones fault the condom broke but if that is that risk you aren't willing to take then don't sleep with the guy. It is quite easy to avoid getting pregnant. People act like it is this situation that is totally beyond the womens control.

If a women gets pregnant(with the exception of rape and incest) it isn't just her choice anymore. The father has just as much right to the child as she does. If neither of them think it is a good idea to have the baby or they can't care for it then they should be able to have an abortion. My problem with the current situation is that a women believes she has the right to kill someones child just because she doesn't want it.

[E-Z-B]

Didn't think we were discussing rape. But I do like as your reason for taking away the choice of millions of dads is some very isolated incidents. So because a women may get raped and pregnant all other fathers should have no say in if their child is born or not.

If a women spreads her legs for a guy and she gets pregnant it is no longer just her choice. If she wants to keep total control over her body which she has the right too then she need to keep her legs shut. Rape being excluded.

To cut off your next argument no the father shouldn't have a say when it comes to incest either.

Rape incidents aren't as "isolated" as you think. And I love how you make women sound like sluts when guys are just as bad, if not worse.

The statistics show that most unwanted pregnancies happen outside of marriage. The problem is that "millions of fathers" won't be there when their child is born. They won't be there to pay for child support either. Statiscally, these unwanted children will never do well in school, they will have family problems and run-ins with the law. So unless society changes, and fathers actually care, then perhaps abortion wouldn't be such a big issue.

[E-Z-B]

If a women gets pregnant(with the exception of rape and incest) it isn't just her choice anymore.

What about the case where a woman is raped by someone she knows, maybe even a friend? But the friend just says it was "consentual". Again, your stereotypes are just making you sound like a sexist, and you're not helping your side at all.

[judyjudyjudy]

Awww childbirth is just so painful, poor you. I can name you one think that is definatly more painful than childbirth and that is burying your son or daughter.

It is no ones fault the condom broke but if that is that risk you aren't willing to take then don't sleep with the guy. It is quite easy to avoid getting pregnant. People act like it is this situation that is totally beyond the womens control.


There are a lot of things more painful than childbirth, but that doesn't mean I want go through it. When (or if) I have children, I sure as hell want my painkilling drugs! (Men who say women should go through natural childbirth are out of their minds.) And I'm not bitching about how childbirth hurts, I'm just saying the guy doesn't have to go through it.

It is also quite easy to get pregnant. And a woman IS taking control by terminating it early.

[Gothic Walrus]

It is a very touchy subject. But as a man I think I should say this.

We (men) cannot be making these type of decisions for women. If for no other reason than because we cannot comprehend childbirth. We think we can, but we can't.

Agreed.

Still...if anyone were to ask me, I'd be pro-choice. If they want to, fine. If they don't want to, let them have the kid. It's really the only solution that seems like it would work. Then again, I'm a guy, and I don't really know anything...

[Steve Dave]

Rape incidents aren't as "isolated" as you think. And I love how you make women sound like sluts when guys are just as bad, if not worse.

The statistics show that most unwanted pregnancies happen outside of marriage. The problem is that "millions of fathers" won't be there when their child is born. They won't be there to pay for child support either. Statiscally, these unwanted children will never do well in school, they will have family problems and run-ins with the law. So unless society changes, and fathers actually care, then perhaps abortion wouldn't be such a big issue.

Rape happens all the time never said it didn't but it isn't the largest reason for abortions. And rape doesn't matter. If you get raped then you should have an abortion, we are agreeing but you keep debating the point with me.

The rest of you statement makes sense. If the farther isn't going to take care of the child and the mother isn't and they don't want it then they should have an abortion. But just because the mother doesn't want it doesn't mean she has the right to kill some farthers child. Just like that father has no right to go make the mother have an abortion if she wants the child.

As for the whole slut argument what is the point? Yes some women are sluts and some men are sluts? We can agree on that what are getting at besides trying to find something else to nit pick about?[/quote]

[Steve Dave]

If a women gets pregnant(with the exception of rape and incest) it isn't just her choice anymore.

What about the case where a woman is raped by someone she knows, maybe even a friend? But the friend just says it was "consentual". Again, your stereotypes are just making you sound like a sexist, and you're not helping your side at all.

You are kidding right?

Men go to jail for rape don't they? And I am willing to bet that a huge number of those men who raped a women said that they didn't rape the women. You can prove that raped has taken place. So if the women was raped then she should have an abortion.

[Steve Dave]

There are a lot of things more painful than childbirth, but that doesn't mean I want go through it. When (or if) I have children, I sure as hell want my painkilling drugs! (Men who say women should go through natural childbirth are out of their minds.) And I'm not bitching about how childbirth hurts, I'm just saying the guy doesn't have to go through it.

It is also quite easy to get pregnant. And a woman IS taking control by terminating it early.

Then take painkilling drugs. Yes the guy doesn't give birth. What is the point of this post? How does that give a women a right to kill the fathers child?

[judyjudyjudy]

Men go to jail for rape don't they? And I am willing to bet that a huge number of those men who raped a women said that they didn't rape the women. You can prove that raped has taken place. So if the women was raped then she should have an abortion.

Another touchy subject... No, men don't always go to jail for rape, and you can't always prove a rape occurred. As E-Z-B mentioned before, whether or not something was consensual is difficult to prove, like with date-rape drugs. (An example is, dare I say, the Kobe Bryant case.) Then there's all the rapes that go unreported...

[CTLesq]

Every opressed being, eventually rises up. Animals, plants, man, and even cosmic bodies.
This world is ready to pop.

Homosexuals, feminists, nazis, black panthers, animal rights activists, all of the extremists, religious, cultural and racial, will all rise up.
Against the common man/woman.

It will be wonderful.



I look forward to repelling you at the barricade.

And after this rabble is defeated I promise we will shoot you all.

CTL

[drone8888]

It all comes down to how you feel about the human experience.

If you think of everyone as an individual, then of course, you'll have no problem banning abortion.

If you see us all as the same, united soul, you probably won't mind an abortion.

We all get recycled, but some people think that this life is a ride, that needs to be ridden. If you've already established, that you are enjoying the ride, it may be hard to imagine anything besides your body, and all that it can do. Mainly Christians.

If you can see beyond this dream, to your whole self, then you know that there is total love, waiting to embrace you. Because, you, are not you. You are me, and I am you. We are all together now, as we will be when this dream, called life, is over.


Child or adult, they each have the capacity to feel, while in this dream. It is up to the individual, though, to make the decision, as that is the great hoax. Can we speak for everyone, through an individual person..?

We are all similar to advertisement billboards. We market a common will, whether it be through religion, morality, comedy, or whatever.

Just be sypathetic. You only agree or disagree, because you haven't heard the right bullshit story yet. Just wait, its coming.

[E-Z-B]

whether or not something was consensual is difficult to prove, like with date-rape drugs. Then there's all the rapes that go unreported...

Exactly.

[Steve Dave]

whether or not something was consensual is difficult to prove, like with date-rape drugs. Then there's all the rapes that go unreported...

Exactly.

So your abortion argument is based on the cases when a women is given a date rape drup and is then treated very kind and lovingly by the man who is raping her, so there will be no proof that he did it. Which then leads to her getting pregnant and the rapist coming forward and then saying that it was consensual sex and he wants to care for the child.

How many rapist return to claim their unborn child?

And because of that situation which I am sure happens all the time. Hundreds of thousands of kids should be aborted and their fathers given no chance to care for them.

[E-Z-B]

whether or not something was consensual is difficult to prove, like with date-rape drugs. Then there's all the rapes that go unreported...

Exactly.

So your abortion argument is based on the cases when a women is given a date rape drup and is then treated very kind and lovingly by the man who is raping her, so there will be no proof that he did it. Which then leads to her getting pregnant and the rapist coming forward and then saying that it was consensual sex and he wants to care for the child.

How many rapist return to claim their unborn child?

And because of that situation which I am sure happens all the time. Hundreds of thousands of kids should be aborted and their fathers given no chance to care for them.

?

:-k

[judyjudyjudy]

So your abortion argument is based on the cases when a women is given a date rape drup and is then treated very kind and lovingly by the man who is raping her, so there will be no proof that he did it. Which then leads to her getting pregnant and the rapist coming forward and then saying that it was consensual sex and he wants to care for the child.


Claiming it's consensual != I want the baby. People claim something is consensual to avoid a felony rape charge. Date rape just means she knows the person, and using a date rape drug means she had no physical control over the situation (and therefore couldn't say no). Date rape doesn't mean the woman is "treated very kind and lovingly by the man who is raping her" and therefore there is no proof. I can't get over how off target that interpretation of date rape was. It disgusts me.

[E-Z-B]

So your abortion argument is based on the cases when a women is given a date rape drup and is then treated very kind and lovingly by the man who is raping her, so there will be no proof that he did it. Which then leads to her getting pregnant and the rapist coming forward and then saying that it was consensual sex and he wants to care for the child.


Claiming it's consensual != I want the baby. People claim something is consensual to avoid a felony rape charge. Date rape just means she knows the person, and using a date rape drug means she had no physical control over the situation (and therefore couldn't say no). Date rape doesn't mean the woman is "treated very kind and lovingly by the man who is raping her" and therefore there is no proof. I can't get over how off target that interpretation of date rape was. It disgusts me.

Is that what he meant? Ohhhhhhh boy.

[Quackzilla]

Anti-choice people disgust me.

They are the same people that want to ban stem cell research, which have the potential to be the cure to alzheimers, parkinsons, and even cancer!
Organs can be grown from stem cells!


To deny someone the right to terminate a pregnancy on the grounds that religious fanatic says its wrong is a crime against humanity.

[judyjudyjudy]

I dunno, maybe... Maybe I'm just getting too fired up on the topic :)

"Date rape doesn't mean the woman is "treated very kind and lovingly by the man who is raping her" and therefore there is no proof. I can't get over how off target that interpretation of date rape was. "

Replace "date rape" with "cases involving date rape drugs", that probably makes more sense too.

[Steve Dave]

No what I meant was that your reason for justifing abortions could be non existant.

Everytime something is said you come back with something even more unlikey to happen to try to bolster your argument. What I typed above was now your current sitution that may happen to OK abortions.

[Steve Dave]

To deny someone the right to terminate a pregnancy on the grounds that religious fanatic says its wrong is a crime against humanity.

Very True.

JudyJudyJudy you read that all wrong. I know you are fired up but settle down just a bit. I was not giving a defintion of date rape and I pointing out what would have to be done for there to be no signs of date rape.

This is not my defintions, this is what has to happen to make your abortion arguemnt make sense. Everytime I would say something you and others would come back with another situation basically taking it to a situation which may never even happen to OK abortion.

I said it just isn't the womens decision which I got the response of what about rape? I agree if there is rape then there should be an abortion. I then got the response what about date rape or what if you can't prove it, or etc. I came back with other opinons and ideas and then it was another reason each one more unlikely then the one before it. What follows is just the situtation that it has come to so you can OK rape.

So your abortion argument is based on the cases when a women is given a date rape drup and is then treated very kind and lovingly by the man who is raping her, so there will be no proof that he did it.(Not the definiton of date rape but what would have to happen in order for there to be no phsyical harm to the woman. The world nicest date rapest.) Which then leads to her getting pregnant and the rapist coming forward and then saying that it was consensual sex and he wants to care for the child.

That is the situation now that you are using to OK rape.

[Quackzilla]

I get it, the perfect crime.

Like using __________ ________________ to kill someone.

[E-Z-B]

Everytime something is said you come back with something even more unlikey to happen to try to bolster your argument..

Here's some statistics for you:

Every 45 seconds someone in the United States is sexually assaulted.

1 out of every 7 women currently in college has been raped, however, 9 out of 10 women raped on campus never tell anyone about the rape.

More than 80% of rapes are never reported to law enforcement.

Approximately 28% of rape victims are raped by their husbands, 35% by an acquaintance, and 5% by a relative other than spouse.

80% of sexual assaults are perpetrated by assailants known to the victim.

1 in 15 rape victims become pregnant as a result of being raped.

[judyjudyjudy]

Steve Dave, it's clear that neither one of us are anti-abortion (so we obviously agree on something). I think it's just your wording on points we disagree on that keeps me hitting that "Post Reply" button.

[Steve Dave]

1 in 15 rape victims become pregnant as a result of being raped.

And they should have an abortion. I don't see what our disagreement is.

[defender]

Having 4 kids is really tough and after the 3rd we thought we were done. When it turned out that we were pregnant again we were rather upset. We had plans and we really couldnt afford another kid. So we considered the options.

After about 2 months of thinking about it we knew that the right thing to do was to have the baby no matter what it cost us. And trust me...it cost us dearly. We are rather poor now in comparison to how we were. Abortion is simply wrong. Its unnatural. Killing a baby (even unborn) is still killing a baby. Its a life created by 2 people and NOT 1. Its not a choice that most men get and thats not cool at all. If my wife went out and got an abortion behind my back I would leave her in a heartbeat. Personally I think men should be able to sue the women that kill their unborn child. Who is to say that the man doesnt want to raise the kid? The problem is that we arent given that choice in todays laws.

Abortion wasnt always legal and there will be a day when its illegal again. It will happen. There is enough good birth control products available in the marketplace to prevent a pregnancy.


BTW- I am SUPER happy with my decision to have my 4th daughter and i feel she is the greatest gift that I have ever recieved.

[Steve Dave]

Steve Dave, it's clear that neither one of us are anti-abortion (so we obviously agree on something). I think it's just your wording on points we disagree on that keeps me hitting that "Post Reply" button.

Then lets go back to square one what is it that you and I are not seeing eye to eye on?

[E-Z-B]

Also, you say that abortion is ok when rape is involved. But must a woman prove that a pregnancy is a result of rape? What if she's ashamed that her family will find out, and wishes to keep quiet about it? Even if she did file a police report against an acquaintance, the guy can always say it was consensual. So now she's stuck with the unwanted child?

[defender]

It all comes down to how you feel about the human experience.

If you think of everyone as an individual, then of course, you'll have no problem banning abortion.

If you see us all as the same, united soul, you probably won't mind an abortion.

We all get recycled, but some people think that this life is a ride, that needs to be ridden. If you've already established, that you are enjoying the ride, it may be hard to imagine anything besides your body, and all that it can do. Mainly Christians.

If you can see beyond this dream, to your whole self, then you know that there is total love, waiting to embrace you. Because, you, are not you. You are me, and I am you. We are all together now, as we will be when this dream, called life, is over.


Child or adult, they each have the capacity to feel, while in this dream. It is up to the individual, though, to make the decision, as that is the great hoax. Can we speak for everyone, through an individual person..?

We are all similar to advertisement billboards. We market a common will, whether it be through religion, morality, comedy, or whatever.

Just be sypathetic. You only agree or disagree, because you haven't heard the right bullshit story yet. Just wait, its coming.

This is some rather strange babble if you ask me.

[Quackzilla]

Abortion wasnt always legal and there will be a day when its illegal again. It will happen. There is enough good birth control products available in the marketplace to prevent a pregnancy.


BTW- I am SUPER happy with my decision to have my 4th daughter and i feel she is the greatest gift that I have ever recieved.

What if your daughter gets raped at the age of 16? Will you make her have the baby or give HER the CHOICE to terminate the abortion.
And the time for contraceptives has run out, its 2 weeks after the incident.

[E-Z-B]

Having 4 kids is really tough and after the 3rd we thought we were done. When it turned out that we were pregnant again we were rather upset. We had plans and we really couldnt afford another kid. So we considered the options.

After about 2 months of thinking about it we knew that the right thing to do was to have the baby no matter what it cost us. And trust me...it cost us dearly. We are rather poor now in comparison to how we were. Abortion is simply wrong. Its unnatural. Killing a baby (even unborn) is still killing a baby. Its a life created by 2 people and NOT 1. Its not a choice that most men get and thats not cool at all. If my wife went out and got an abortion behind my back I would leave her in a heartbeat. Personally I think men should be able to sue the women that kill their unborn child. Who is to say that the man doesnt want to raise the kid? The problem is that we arent given that choice in todays laws.

Abortion wasnt always legal and there will be a day when its illegal again. It will happen. There is enough good birth control products available in the marketplace to prevent a pregnancy.


BTW- I am SUPER happy with my decision to have my 4th daughter and i feel she is the greatest gift that I have ever recieved.

Defender, your situation is a little different from what we're talking about. Your child is coming into a family, with a father who's there to provide for their children. Many, many pregnancies happen to women where the father is nowhere to be found or heard from again, or are a result of rape in one way or another. Until men step up and act like men, and provide for their children, abortion should be an option for women.

[Steve Dave]

Also, you say that abortion is ok when rape is involved. But must a woman prove that a pregnancy is a result of rape? What if she's ashamed that her family will find out, and wishes to keep quiet about it? Even if she did file a police report against an acquaintance, the guy can always say it was consensual. So now she's stuck with the unwanted child?

And at what point exactly is the rapist going to come forward and claim the child?

Again go back to my statement that you posted the ?'s mark about. In order for that situtation to happen she would have had to have been treat nicely during that rape so that is couldn't be proven and then the rapist would have to come forward and say that it was consensual and that he wanted to care for this child. I will give you a chance to google search and find all the times that has happened.

[ZForce915]

This isn't a touchy subject at all. The answer is: abortions for some, miniature American flags for others.

Best response in this topic ever.

I too am against abortion. Regardles of what any doctor tells you it's still murder.

What is worse, bringing a child into the world you don't want and not giving him/her the attention he/she needs or just never bringing him/her into the world?

[judyjudyjudy]

Then lets go back to square one what is it that you and I are not seeing eye to eye on?

Just look at all the previous posts.

I think the main point we disagree on (and I'm sure a lot of fathers on this board will disagree too), that if there's a disagreement between a woman and a man on whether or not to terminate a pregnancy, the woman should have the overriding decision because, in the end, it is her body that has to go through with the pregnancy or abortion. (And I mean for consensual relationships.) Opinions on this idea are very polar (like religion and when does "life" begin), so I think I will stop at that.

Plus I need to eat lunch :P

[CTLesq]

Having 4 kids is really tough and after the 3rd we thought we were done. When it turned out that we were pregnant again we were rather upset. We had plans and we really couldnt afford another kid. So we considered the options.

After about 2 months of thinking about it we knew that the right thing to do was to have the baby no matter what it cost us. And trust me...it cost us dearly. We are rather poor now in comparison to how we were. Abortion is simply wrong. Its unnatural. Killing a baby (even unborn) is still killing a baby. Its a life created by 2 people and NOT 1. Its not a choice that most men get and thats not cool at all. If my wife went out and got an abortion behind my back I would leave her in a heartbeat. Personally I think men should be able to sue the women that kill their unborn child. Who is to say that the man doesnt want to raise the kid? The problem is that we arent given that choice in todays laws.

Abortion wasnt always legal and there will be a day when its illegal again. It will happen. There is enough good birth control products available in the marketplace to prevent a pregnancy.


BTW- I am SUPER happy with my decision to have my 4th daughter and i feel she is the greatest gift that I have ever recieved.

Defender, your situation is a little different from what we're talking about. Your child is coming into a family, with a father who's there to provide for their children. Many, many pregnancies happen to women where the father is nowhere to be found or heard from again, or are a result of rape in one way or another. Until men step up and act like men, and provide for their children, abortion should be an option for women.

I agree with abortion rights. But it is a poor defense of them to argue that unless a child's family life will be perfect abortion should be a choice.

The two have nothing to do with one another.

[E-Z-B]

Also, you say that abortion is ok when rape is involved. But must a woman prove that a pregnancy is a result of rape? What if she's ashamed that her family will find out, and wishes to keep quiet about it? Even if she did file a police report against an acquaintance, the guy can always say it was consensual. So now she's stuck with the unwanted child?

And at what point exactly is the rapist going to come forward and claim the child?

Again go back to my statement that you posted the ?'s mark about. In order for that situtation to happen she would have had to have been treat nicely during that rape so that is couldn't be proven and then the rapist would have to come forward and say that it was consensual and that he wanted to care for this child. I will give you a chance to google search and find all the times that has happened.

This is still confusing me. Are you saying that the rapist is entitled to an opinion on whether or not the fetus should live, just because he treated her "nicely" during the rape?

[Steve Dave]

Then that is where we do disagree.


I feel a women has no more or less power in deciding if the child is born or not then the man does in a consensual realationship. The women knew the risks when she slept with the man. If you aren't willing to deal with those risks then don't sleep with the man.

[JohnHam]

This whole thread brings up the larger problem of moral relativism.

It's wrong, but what if she was raped?

The point is, if you have REAL morals, then you have to realize that if something is wrong for a person to do, it is wrong for ALL people to do.

Whether it was your choice to have a baby or not it doesn't change the fact that you're pregnant and abortion is murder. Getting raped doesn't give you a "Kill one baby free" card.

I realize this entire post likely seems really awful and insensitive, but I feel strongly that you can't give any gray area in moral situations.

What's wrong is wrong, and will be wrong regardless of context.

[jmcc]

1. I don't think current abortion laws are equitable to men. If the mother decides she wants to give birth to the child and the father doesn't want that he should be given the choice to opt out, legally, so that he bears no responsibility, financial or otherwise, for the kid. Women can have the final say in their kid's life and death, but they can accept all the responsibility that comes with that choice also, I say.

2. I believe, within 50 years, technology will catch up with this issue and enable women who don't want to carry a fetus to term to have it removed and still have it live outside of it's mother's body. Whether this is in the form of some mechanical system or tranplanting into another woman's body, I'm not sure, but I have absolute faith in medical technology that abortions will become obsolete within my lifetime.

[E-Z-B]

Having 4 kids is really tough and after the 3rd we thought we were done. When it turned out that we were pregnant again we were rather upset. We had plans and we really couldnt afford another kid. So we considered the options.

After about 2 months of thinking about it we knew that the right thing to do was to have the baby no matter what it cost us. And trust me...it cost us dearly. We are rather poor now in comparison to how we were. Abortion is simply wrong. Its unnatural. Killing a baby (even unborn) is still killing a baby. Its a life created by 2 people and NOT 1. Its not a choice that most men get and thats not cool at all. If my wife went out and got an abortion behind my back I would leave her in a heartbeat. Personally I think men should be able to sue the women that kill their unborn child. Who is to say that the man doesnt want to raise the kid? The problem is that we arent given that choice in todays laws.

Abortion wasnt always legal and there will be a day when its illegal again. It will happen. There is enough good birth control products available in the marketplace to prevent a pregnancy.


BTW- I am SUPER happy with my decision to have my 4th daughter and i feel she is the greatest gift that I have ever recieved.

Defender, your situation is a little different from what we're talking about. Your child is coming into a family, with a father who's there to provide for their children. Many, many pregnancies happen to women where the father is nowhere to be found or heard from again, or are a result of rape in one way or another. Until men step up and act like men, and provide for their children, abortion should be an option for women.

I agree with abortion rights. But it is a poor defense of them to argue that unless a child's family life will be perfect abortion should be a choice.

The two have nothing to do with one another.

Is it worth ruining two lives? Or at least salvage one?

[E-Z-B]

This whole thread brings up the larger problem of moral relativism.

It's wrong, but what if she was raped?

The point is, if you have REAL morals, then you have to realize that if something is wrong for a person to do, it is wrong for ALL people to do.

Whether it was your choice to have a baby or not it doesn't change the fact that you're pregnant and abortion is murder. Getting raped doesn't give you a "Kill one baby free" card.

I realize this entire post likely seems really awful and insensitive, but I feel strongly that you can't give any gray area in moral situations.

What's wrong is wrong, and will be wrong regardless of context.

You try telling that to yourself when your 13-year-old daughter is raped by some child predator in your neighborhood.

[JohnHam]

Having 4 kids is really tough and after the 3rd we thought we were done. When it turned out that we were pregnant again we were rather upset. We had plans and we really couldnt afford another kid. So we considered the options.

After about 2 months of thinking about it we knew that the right thing to do was to have the baby no matter what it cost us. And trust me...it cost us dearly. We are rather poor now in comparison to how we were. Abortion is simply wrong. Its unnatural. Killing a baby (even unborn) is still killing a baby. Its a life created by 2 people and NOT 1. Its not a choice that most men get and thats not cool at all. If my wife went out and got an abortion behind my back I would leave her in a heartbeat. Personally I think men should be able to sue the women that kill their unborn child. Who is to say that the man doesnt want to raise the kid? The problem is that we arent given that choice in todays laws.

Abortion wasnt always legal and there will be a day when its illegal again. It will happen. There is enough good birth control products available in the marketplace to prevent a pregnancy.


BTW- I am SUPER happy with my decision to have my 4th daughter and i feel she is the greatest gift that I have ever recieved.

Defender, your situation is a little different from what we're talking about. Your child is coming into a family, with a father who's there to provide for their children. Many, many pregnancies happen to women where the father is nowhere to be found or heard from again, or are a result of rape in one way or another. Until men step up and act like men, and provide for their children, abortion should be an option for women.

I agree with abortion rights. But it is a poor defense of them to argue that unless a child's family life will be perfect abortion should be a choice.

The two have nothing to do with one another.

Is it worth ruining two lives? Or at least salvage one?

So, let's kill one person, so two can be comfortable?

That makes no sense what-so-ever.

[Steve Dave]

[quote]This is still confusing me. Are you saying that the rapist is entitled to an opinion on whether or not the fetus should live, just because he treated her "nicely" during the rape? [quote]

No. Everytime I say a sitution in which in abortion should be stopped you and others come back with another less likey situation.

I said abortion should only happen if both the man and women want it. Others said "What about rape?"

I have no problem with an abortion being done after a rape, others then said "What if it can't be proven." Then others said "What if the rapist said it was consensual to get out of trouble?"

Which then leads me to the following statement.

The situation that now needs to happen for you to prove that abortion should happen no matter what is:

A women must be date raped. She must the be treated nicely and lovingly.(Because if she isn't then you can prove that there was rape and she can have the abortion) Then the rapist after being accused of the rape has to say it was consensual and then he has to want to take care of the child.

Again what rapists are coming forward to take care of the child he helped create during the rape. Even if he was claiming it to be consensual he would still need to want the child. ]

If that did happen yes it would cause a problem but it is so unlikely that I don't feel millions of dads should lose their right to their child because of a situation has probably never happen and will never happen.

[JohnHam]

This whole thread brings up the larger problem of moral relativism.

It's wrong, but what if she was raped?

The point is, if you have REAL morals, then you have to realize that if something is wrong for a person to do, it is wrong for ALL people to do.

Whether it was your choice to have a baby or not it doesn't change the fact that you're pregnant and abortion is murder. Getting raped doesn't give you a "Kill one baby free" card.

I realize this entire post likely seems really awful and insensitive, but I feel strongly that you can't give any gray area in moral situations.

What's wrong is wrong, and will be wrong regardless of context.

You try telling that to yourself when your 13-year-old daughter is raped by some child predator in your neighborhood.

You act like I'm some kind of rape advocate, I'm NOT.

The point is, an abortion is WRONG, according to my morals, and to qualify something's moral quality by context is idiotic and cheapens the morals themselves.

Because something horrible happened to you does not give you the right to murder.

[E-Z-B]

Having 4 kids is really tough and after the 3rd we thought we were done. When it turned out that we were pregnant again we were rather upset. We had plans and we really couldnt afford another kid. So we considered the options.

After about 2 months of thinking about it we knew that the right thing to do was to have the baby no matter what it cost us. And trust me...it cost us dearly. We are rather poor now in comparison to how we were. Abortion is simply wrong. Its unnatural. Killing a baby (even unborn) is still killing a baby. Its a life created by 2 people and NOT 1. Its not a choice that most men get and thats not cool at all. If my wife went out and got an abortion behind my back I would leave her in a heartbeat. Personally I think men should be able to sue the women that kill their unborn child. Who is to say that the man doesnt want to raise the kid? The problem is that we arent given that choice in todays laws.

Abortion wasnt always legal and there will be a day when its illegal again. It will happen. There is enough good birth control products available in the marketplace to prevent a pregnancy.


BTW- I am SUPER happy with my decision to have my 4th daughter and i feel she is the greatest gift that I have ever recieved.

Defender, your situation is a little different from what we're talking about. Your child is coming into a family, with a father who's there to provide for their children. Many, many pregnancies happen to women where the father is nowhere to be found or heard from again, or are a result of rape in one way or another. Until men step up and act like men, and provide for their children, abortion should be an option for women.

I agree with abortion rights. But it is a poor defense of them to argue that unless a child's family life will be perfect abortion should be a choice.

The two have nothing to do with one another.

Is it worth ruining two lives? Or at least salvage one?

So, let's kill one person, so two can be comfortable?

That makes no sense what-so-ever.

No, your post doesn't make sense. You end the pregnancy so that at least the mother can rebuild her life. That's what I meant by salvaging one life. I don't know what you mean by "so two can be comfortable". 1 content life is better than 0.

[JohnHam]

Having 4 kids is really tough and after the 3rd we thought we were done. When it turned out that we were pregnant again we were rather upset. We had plans and we really couldnt afford another kid. So we considered the options.

After about 2 months of thinking about it we knew that the right thing to do was to have the baby no matter what it cost us. And trust me...it cost us dearly. We are rather poor now in comparison to how we were. Abortion is simply wrong. Its unnatural. Killing a baby (even unborn) is still killing a baby. Its a life created by 2 people and NOT 1. Its not a choice that most men get and thats not cool at all. If my wife went out and got an abortion behind my back I would leave her in a heartbeat. Personally I think men should be able to sue the women that kill their unborn child. Who is to say that the man doesnt want to raise the kid? The problem is that we arent given that choice in todays laws.

Abortion wasnt always legal and there will be a day when its illegal again. It will happen. There is enough good birth control products available in the marketplace to prevent a pregnancy.


BTW- I am SUPER happy with my decision to have my 4th daughter and i feel she is the greatest gift that I have ever recieved.

Defender, your situation is a little different from what we're talking about. Your child is coming into a family, with a father who's there to provide for their children. Many, many pregnancies happen to women where the father is nowhere to be found or heard from again, or are a result of rape in one way or another. Until men step up and act like men, and provide for their children, abortion should be an option for women.

I agree with abortion rights. But it is a poor defense of them to argue that unless a child's family life will be perfect abortion should be a choice.

The two have nothing to do with one another.

Is it worth ruining two lives? Or at least salvage one?

So, let's kill one person, so two can be comfortable?

That makes no sense what-so-ever.

No, your post doesn't make sense. You end the pregnancy so that at least the mother can rebuild her life. That's what I meant by salvaging one life. I don't know what you mean by "so two can be comfortable". 1 content life is better than 0.

You say "end the pregnancy" which makes me laugh because I find it funny the ways people make it less than murder.

Anyway, I may have misread your post, but let me get it straight...

A man gets a woman pregnant and leaves her. You say that the woman should have the right to "end the pregnancy" so that she can live her life as she wishes.

Hmm...let me check. Yes, you're still wrong.

Why not let someone adopt her child? Or put it into the care of the state so that he/she can grow up in a safe environment?

Why is abortion the first considered and most viable option?

The jist is this, you say, take one life (the unborn child's) so that the mother can live how she pleases.

That is idiotic.

[Quackzilla]

Abortion wasnt always legal and there will be a day when its illegal again. It will happen. There is enough good birth control products available in the marketplace to prevent a pregnancy.


BTW- I am SUPER happy with my decision to have my 4th daughter and i feel she is the greatest gift that I have ever recieved.

What if your daughter gets raped at the age of 16? Will you make her have the baby or give HER the CHOICE to terminate the abortion.
And the time for contraceptives has run out, its 2 weeks after the incident.

[E-Z-B]

This whole thread brings up the larger problem of moral relativism.

It's wrong, but what if she was raped?

The point is, if you have REAL morals, then you have to realize that if something is wrong for a person to do, it is wrong for ALL people to do.

Whether it was your choice to have a baby or not it doesn't change the fact that you're pregnant and abortion is murder. Getting raped doesn't give you a "Kill one baby free" card.

I realize this entire post likely seems really awful and insensitive, but I feel strongly that you can't give any gray area in moral situations.

What's wrong is wrong, and will be wrong regardless of context.

You try telling that to yourself when your 13-year-old daughter is raped by some child predator in your neighborhood.

You act like I'm some kind of rape advocate, I'm NOT.

The point is, an abortion is WRONG, according to my morals, and to qualify something's moral quality by context is idiotic and cheapens the morals themselves.

Because something horrible happened to you does not give you the right to murder.

I'm not saying you're a rape advocate. I'm saying that before saying that abortion is wrong no matter what the situation, try imagining a situation like the rape & pregnancy of your daughter, then come back to us and say that you still support a ban on abortion no matter what.

[JohnHam]

This whole thread brings up the larger problem of moral relativism.

It's wrong, but what if she was raped?

The point is, if you have REAL morals, then you have to realize that if something is wrong for a person to do, it is wrong for ALL people to do.

Whether it was your choice to have a baby or not it doesn't change the fact that you're pregnant and abortion is murder. Getting raped doesn't give you a "Kill one baby free" card.

I realize this entire post likely seems really awful and insensitive, but I feel strongly that you can't give any gray area in moral situations.

What's wrong is wrong, and will be wrong regardless of context.

You try telling that to yourself when your 13-year-old daughter is raped by some child predator in your neighborhood.

You act like I'm some kind of rape advocate, I'm NOT.

The point is, an abortion is WRONG, according to my morals, and to qualify something's moral quality by context is idiotic and cheapens the morals themselves.

Because something horrible happened to you does not give you the right to murder.

I'm not saying you're a rape advocate. I'm saying that before saying that abortion is wrong no matter what the situation, try imagining a situation like the rape & pregnancy of your daughter, then come back to us and say that you still support a ban on abortion no matter what.

I do.

[E-Z-B]

That is idiotic.

That's how you know that someone is losing an arguement - when they start name-calling.

Sort of like how O'Reilley knew he lost an arguement to Al Franken - when he started yelling at him at the top of his lungs.

[Steve Dave]

I don't agree with that. If he would have started calling you an idiot or stupid then I would agree but that is how I would describe many of the opinions on the board. It is a very vaild way to describe someones ideas.

On a different subject I don't care for how O'Reilly gets in some peoples faces and tells them they are flat out wrong but the only think franken does is call people names.

[defender]

What is worse, bringing a child into the world you don't want and not giving him/her the attention he/she needs or just never bringing him/her into the world?
It's much worse to not give the child a chance.

Also I dont think anyone here thinks that rapist should be given a choice or that rape victims shouldnt be allowed to get an abortion. This shouldnt even be brought up but pro-choicers love to spin arguements around. Its obvious that rapist would have to go to trial and sure...it may become a legal issue the courts would decide on a per case basis...just like every rape. If someone is convicted of rape they would lose any rights to a baby and they most likely would get jail time...Problem solved. Is that so hard to understand.

We shouldnt be making anyone a victim. I am for the Death Penalty because the perpetrator is NOT a victim. I am pro-life because you victimize the unborn and KILL THEM. The government should stop allowing this practice. It would make sense. Fathers just dont have the proper rights. Many of you have never gotten a woman pregnant. So you really have little basis for your opinions other than what you hear, read, and think. To have first hand experience in the matter is important. When my wife first got pregnant I quickly realized that it was only HER choice, according to current laws, whether or not to have the baby. I really wanted it...but if she decided otherwise then I was screwed and the baby would be dead. How is this fair? A woman can easily protect herself from getting pregnant. Force the man to wear a condom, use gels, take a pill, and such.

[defender]

That is idiotic.

That's how you know that someone is losing an arguement - when they start name-calling.

Sort of like how O'Reilley knew he lost an arguement to Al Franken - when he started yelling at him at the top of his lungs.

he called the statement and arguement idiotic not the person...and O'Reiley always screams...

Al Franken is a dick.

[CTLesq]

Having 4 kids is really tough and after the 3rd we thought we were done. When it turned out that we were pregnant again we were rather upset. We had plans and we really couldnt afford another kid. So we considered the options.

After about 2 months of thinking about it we knew that the right thing to do was to have the baby no matter what it cost us. And trust me...it cost us dearly. We are rather poor now in comparison to how we were. Abortion is simply wrong. Its unnatural. Killing a baby (even unborn) is still killing a baby. Its a life created by 2 people and NOT 1. Its not a choice that most men get and thats not cool at all. If my wife went out and got an abortion behind my back I would leave her in a heartbeat. Personally I think men should be able to sue the women that kill their unborn child. Who is to say that the man doesnt want to raise the kid? The problem is that we arent given that choice in todays laws.

Abortion wasnt always legal and there will be a day when its illegal again. It will happen. There is enough good birth control products available in the marketplace to prevent a pregnancy.


BTW- I am SUPER happy with my decision to have my 4th daughter and i feel she is the greatest gift that I have ever recieved.

Defender, your situation is a little different from what we're talking about. Your child is coming into a family, with a father who's there to provide for their children. Many, many pregnancies happen to women where the father is nowhere to be found or heard from again, or are a result of rape in one way or another. Until men step up and act like men, and provide for their children, abortion should be an option for women.

I agree with abortion rights. But it is a poor defense of them to argue that unless a child's family life will be perfect abortion should be a choice.

The two have nothing to do with one another.

Is it worth ruining two lives? Or at least salvage one?

Salvage one? You presume there is something worth saving?

And what if the "worthless" child you would abort to save the "worthwhile" life of the mother would have found a cure to cancer?

Again, I support abortion rights. And just because I support them doesn't mean I think abortion is A-OK, lets have two because its Tuesday.

The justification you provided was a poor one. That doesn't mean that being stuck with two bad choices you can justify abortion using that example.

Very simply abortion cuts to the heart of a woman's ability to control her ability to reproduce. It is a fundamental right which belongs to women PERIOD.

And lets cut out the garbage about rape. Its like talking about people who get HIV through blood transfusions, terrible, but statistically not a good way to make policy.

CTL

[JohnHam]

That is idiotic.

That's how you know that someone is losing an arguement - when they start name-calling.

Sort of like how O'Reilley knew he lost an arguement to Al Franken - when he started yelling at him at the top of his lungs.

Another one, saying something completely off topic.

Regardless, I did not call you idiotic, only your argument. I respect you because you clearly are intellignt to some degree, and you believe in what you believe in. That is an honorable trait. Regardless, I believe you are wrong.

Moral relativism to a small degree can be tough to understand, but I'll give you an extreme example.

Say I have a REALLY bad day. I'm walking down the road, and to take out my anger, I just boot a dog as hard as I can. Now, obviously, that is a wrong thing to do. But, if you're acting as you are and bending morality, you can't say I was wrong for doing that. I had a bad day! You have no right to say what I did was wrong because you don't understand my context.

In morality, context is irrelevant. What is wrong, is invariably wrong. Regardless of circumstances.

[JohnHam]

Thank you for the support guys!

[E-Z-B]

Regardless, I did not call you idiotic, only your argument. I respect you because you clearly are intellignt to some degree, and you believe in what you believe in.

That's what I meant, name-calling at my arguements, not me personally. To categorically say the opposing arguments are "stupid", "idiotic", and "dumb" shows that your arguments must weak.

[JohnHam]

Yet you won't respond to my points....HMMM...

I think that shows more than calling your argument what it is.

If you'd like a better adjective, illogical works as well.

[E-Z-B]

And what if the "worthless" child you would abort to save the "worthwhile" life of the mother would have found a cure to cancer?

And what if the child grows up to be the next Hitler? The argument isn't valid.

[bignick]

What is worse, bringing a child into the world you don't want and not giving him/her the attention he/she needs or just never bringing him/her into the world?
It's much worse to not give the child a chance.

Also I dont think anyone here thinks that rapist should be given a choice or that rape victims shouldnt be allowed to get an abortion. This shouldnt even be brought up but pro-choicers love to spin arguements around. Its obvious that rapist would have to go to trial and sure...it may become a legal issue the courts would decide on a per case basis...just like every rape. If someone is convicted of rape they would lose any rights to a baby and they most likely would get jail time...Problem solved. Is that so hard to understand.

We shouldnt be making anyone a victim. I am for the Death Penalty because the perpetrator is NOT a victim. I am pro-life because you victimize the unborn and KILL THEM. The government should stop allowing this practice. It would make sense. Fathers just dont have the proper rights. Many of you have never gotten a woman pregnant. So you really have little basis for your opinions other than what you hear, read, and think. To have first hand experience in the matter is important. When my wife first got pregnant I quickly realized that it was only HER choice, according to current laws, whether or not to have the baby. I really wanted it...but if she decided otherwise then I was screwed and the baby would be dead. How is this fair? A woman can easily protect herself from getting pregnant. Force the man to wear a condom, use gels, take a pill, and such.

I knew there was a reason I liked you Defender. Abortion is murder.

[JohnHam]

And what if the "worthless" child you would abort to save the "worthwhile" life of the mother would have found a cure to cancer?

And what if the child grows up to be the next Hitler? The argument is valid.

What if you're a ****ing monkey? That doesn't give me the right to kill you. "What if"s and "could be"s don't either.

THAT is an idiotic argument THROUGH AND THROUGH.

[CTLesq]

And what if the "worthless" child you would abort to save the "worthwhile" life of the mother would have found a cure to cancer?

And what if the child grows up to be the next Hitler? The argument isn't valid.

Then think of all the really LATE term abortions that child would get to perform.

Based on the relativism being presented to me in making the choice between the value of the life of the mother and the potential value of the child it most certainly IS valid.

CTL

[evilmax17]

And what if the "worthless" child you would abort to save the "worthwhile" life of the mother would have found a cure to cancer?

And what if the child grows up to be the next Hitler? The argument is valid.

What if you're a ****ing monkey? That doesn't give me the right to kill you. "What if"s and "could be"s don't either.

THAT is an idiotic argument THROUGH AND THROUGH.

Man, you've got to be the biggest rape-advocate i've ever seen!

[E-Z-B]

Yet you won't respond to my points....HMMM...

I think that shows more than calling your argument what it is.

If you'd like a better adjective, illogical works as well.

Hey, if you're gung-ho on having your raped daughter have that baby, then more power to you. Perhaps most people aren't as dedicated as you. But to deny women the opportunity to forget what happened to them by taking away the right to end the pregnancy is cruel. And like what someone said earlier, they will go back to using coathangers if they have to.

[Wshakspear]

Hey, did any of you guys notice how Bush works both as the presidents last name AND as the female sex organs area?

Woah man, thats funny.

[E-Z-B]

And what if the "worthless" child you would abort to save the "worthwhile" life of the mother would have found a cure to cancer?

And what if the child grows up to be the next Hitler? The argument is valid.

What if you're a ****ing monkey? That doesn't give me the right to kill you. "What if"s and "could be"s don't either.

THAT is an idiotic argument THROUGH AND THROUGH.

:roll: I was contradicting the "what if" scenario that CTLesq provided. I think I'm done arguing with YOU.

[ZForce915]

What is worse, bringing a child into the world you don't want and not giving him/her the attention he/she needs or just never bringing him/her into the world?
It's much worse to not give the child a chance.

Also I dont think anyone here thinks that rapist should be given a choice or that rape victims shouldnt be allowed to get an abortion. This shouldnt even be brought up but pro-choicers love to spin arguements around. Its obvious that rapist would have to go to trial and sure...it may become a legal issue the courts would decide on a per case basis...just like every rape. If someone is convicted of rape they would lose any rights to a baby and they most likely would get jail time...Problem solved. Is that so hard to understand.

I think the big issue here is that no two situations are the same. I do think that sometimes everyone is better off with an abortion. I don't say that to be mean or make anyone mad, I just believe that. I think it's hard to deny that there couldn't be a case where an abortion would be the best for the mother, father and then ultamatly the child.

I know someone who was put in a situation where they had an abortion. His girlfriend (17) was diabetic and was told by her doctor that she would have a lot of complications if she tried to have this child at her age. In addition to all of that, she would have to put her life on hold (yes I'm aware that they should have considered that before doing the nasty, but telling him that wasn't going to make the situation better so I didn't). She was a smart kid, finished high school with a 4.0.

In this situation there was no chance they would have kept the child. Adoption was most definately a possiblity, but the risk of having the child at her age with her condition made it a decision they will have to deal with live with, but they don't regret.

[CTLesq]

Yet you won't respond to my points....HMMM...

I think that shows more than calling your argument what it is.

If you'd like a better adjective, illogical works as well.

Hey, if you're gung-ho on having your raped daughter have that baby, then more power to you. Perhaps most people aren't as dedicated as you. But to deny women the opportunity to forget what happened to them by taking away the right to end the pregnancy is cruel. And like what someone said earlier, they will go back to using coathangers if they have to.

If you think a woman will magically forget the trauma of being raped by having an abortion and won't continue to suffer the psychological effects of both the rape and the abortion you are not qualified to participate in this conversation.

Both are tramatic. And I have yet to hear anyone from the pro-abortion camp suggest that an abortion magically wipes away a rape.

Further the continued use of aborting a child concieved in rape is a very poor basis to justify abortion rights for society.

Care to provide statistics showing how many women who have abortions are doing so becuase they were impregnated during a rape?

CTL

[JohnHam]

Yet you won't respond to my points....HMMM...

I think that shows more than calling your argument what it is.

If you'd like a better adjective, illogical works as well.

Hey, if you're gung-ho on having your raped daughter have that baby, then more power to you. Perhaps most people aren't as dedicated as you. But to deny women the opportunity to forget what happened to them by taking away the right to end the pregnancy is cruel. And like what someone said earlier, they will go back to using coathangers if they have to.

If you think a woman will magically forget the trauma of being raped by having an abortion and won't continue to suffer the psychological effects of both the rape and the abortion you are not qualified to participate in this conversation.

Both are tramatic. And I have yet to hear anyone from the pro-abortion camp suggest that an abortion magically wipes away a rape.

Further the continued use of aborting a child concieved in rape is a very poor basis to justify abortion rights for society.

Care to provide statistics showing how many women who have abortions are doing so becuase they were impregnated during a rape?

CTL

People will go back to using coathangers, eh? I'm sure some will, but if abortion is made illegal, they will be tried for whatever crime abortion is legally defined as. And they should be.

Your argument here is "well, it's going to happen anyway, so why even acknowledge that it's wrong?"

Um, because it's the right thing to do?

EDIT: Spelling.

[alongx]

"A woman's body is her own fu cking business." - Jay and Silent Bob

[ZForce915]

Yet you won't respond to my points....HMMM...

I think that shows more than calling your argument what it is.

If you'd like a better adjective, illogical works as well.

Hey, if you're gung-ho on having your raped daughter have that baby, then more power to you. Perhaps most people aren't as dedicated as you. But to deny women the opportunity to forget what happened to them by taking away the right to end the pregnancy is cruel. And like what someone said earlier, they will go back to using coathangers if they have to.

If you think a woman will magically forget the trauma of being raped by having an abortion and won't continue to suffer the psychological effects of both the rape and the abortion you are not qualified to participate in this conversation.

Both are tramatic. And I have yet to hear anyone from the pro-abortion camp suggest that an abortion magically wipes away a rape.

Further the continued use of aborting a child concieved in rape is a very poor basis to justify abortion rights for society.

Care to provide statistics showing how many women who have abortions are doing so becuase they were impregnated during a rape?

CTL
Glad to know that we have a psychologist on the boards who can help us out. You are a doctor right, you sure seem to know what is "fact". If you are not, maybe you aren't qualified to be in this conversation.

Anytime anyone asks for "statistics" on these boards it's because you just don't want to believe it. And so far when statistics have been posted know one believes them.

[CTLesq]

Yet you won't respond to my points....HMMM...

I think that shows more than calling your argument what it is.

If you'd like a better adjective, illogical works as well.

Hey, if you're gung-ho on having your raped daughter have that baby, then more power to you. Perhaps most people aren't as dedicated as you. But to deny women the opportunity to forget what happened to them by taking away the right to end the pregnancy is cruel. And like what someone said earlier, they will go back to using coathangers if they have to.

If you think a woman will magically forget the trauma of being raped by having an abortion and won't continue to suffer the psychological effects of both the rape and the abortion you are not qualified to participate in this conversation.

Both are tramatic. And I have yet to hear anyone from the pro-abortion camp suggest that an abortion magically wipes away a rape.

Further the continued use of aborting a child concieved in rape is a very poor basis to justify abortion rights for society.

Care to provide statistics showing how many women who have abortions are doing so becuase they were impregnated during a rape?

CTL

People will go back to using coathangers, eh? I'm sure some will, but if abortion is made illegal, they will be tried for whatever crime abortion is legally defined as. And they should be.

Your argument here is "well, it's going to happen anyway, so why even acknowledge that it's wrong?"

Um, because it's the right thing to do?

EDIT: Spelling.

No.

I never argued that.

I clearly stated that I view this as a fundamental right for women to control their reproductive health.

Is your response the law is right because it is the law?

Maybe you would like to visit Selma Alabama circa 1950 as a black man and try to have lunch in a white only cafe. After all, once you are charged and convicted of that crime, what recourse do you have? It was the law.

What I am talking about is natural law. We are born with certain rights. They aren't granted and we can't give them up. Reproductive rights are such rights. That for 2,000+ years men have controlled women's health care choices does not make it right.

You aren't aware of this, but let me share this little nugget with you: I can get viagra paid for by my health insurance, my wife can't get birth control pills paid for. And I don't have sh itty insurance.

CTL

[bignick]

Considering the fact that many woman do not report being raped, it would be tough to get any real numbers.

[JohnHam]

Yet you won't respond to my points....HMMM...

I think that shows more than calling your argument what it is.

If you'd like a better adjective, illogical works as well.

Hey, if you're gung-ho on having your raped daughter have that baby, then more power to you. Perhaps most people aren't as dedicated as you. But to deny women the opportunity to forget what happened to them by taking away the right to end the pregnancy is cruel. And like what someone said earlier, they will go back to using coathangers if they have to.

If you think a woman will magically forget the trauma of being raped by having an abortion and won't continue to suffer the psychological effects of both the rape and the abortion you are not qualified to participate in this conversation.

Both are tramatic. And I have yet to hear anyone from the pro-abortion camp suggest that an abortion magically wipes away a rape.

Further the continued use of aborting a child concieved in rape is a very poor basis to justify abortion rights for society.

Care to provide statistics showing how many women who have abortions are doing so becuase they were impregnated during a rape?

CTL
Glad to know that we have a psychologist on the boards who can help us out. You are a doctor right, you sure seem to know what is "fact". If you are not, maybe you aren't qualified to be in this conversation.

Anytime anyone asks for "statistics" on these boards it's because you just don't want to believe it. And so far when statistics have been posted know one believes them.

You're right, how could we know rape or abortion is traumatic?

I bet at best it's just a mild tingling sensation.

Either that or it's one of the most painful experiences a woman can have.

I knew a woman who had an abortion once. She was a family friend. She cried for months afterward, and said it was the worst decision she ever made. She has night terrors. She says if she could ever change a thing about her life, it wouldn't be getting pregnant, it would be having the abortion.

[CTLesq]

Yet you won't respond to my points....HMMM...

I think that shows more than calling your argument what it is.

If you'd like a better adjective, illogical works as well.

Hey, if you're gung-ho on having your raped daughter have that baby, then more power to you. Perhaps most people aren't as dedicated as you. But to deny women the opportunity to forget what happened to them by taking away the right to end the pregnancy is cruel. And like what someone said earlier, they will go back to using coathangers if they have to.

If you think a woman will magically forget the trauma of being raped by having an abortion and won't continue to suffer the psychological effects of both the rape and the abortion you are not qualified to participate in this conversation.

Both are tramatic. And I have yet to hear anyone from the pro-abortion camp suggest that an abortion magically wipes away a rape.

Further the continued use of aborting a child concieved in rape is a very poor basis to justify abortion rights for society.

Care to provide statistics showing how many women who have abortions are doing so becuase they were impregnated during a rape?

CTL
Glad to know that we have a psychologist on the boards who can help us out. You are a doctor right, you sure seem to know what is "fact". If you are not, maybe you aren't qualified to be in this conversation.

Anytime anyone asks for "statistics" on these boards it's because you just don't want to believe it. And so far when statistics have been posted know one believes them.

I have a juris doctorate - hence ESQ.

When I ask for statistics its because your argument is meaningless without them. Particularly when you premise your argument on them.

I haven't seen any statistics. So clearly it would be a simple matter for you to provide a link....

CTL

[CTLesq]

Considering the fact that many woman do not report being raped, it would be tough to get any real numbers.

But the total number of women being raped isn't the issue.

The issue is the number of women being raped, who become pregant, who have abortions are report all the above.

If these numbers are significant relative to the total number of women having abortions, viola you have an argument.

If not, you don't.

CTL

[JohnHam]

Yet you won't respond to my points....HMMM...

I think that shows more than calling your argument what it is.

If you'd like a better adjective, illogical works as well.

Hey, if you're gung-ho on having your raped daughter have that baby, then more power to you. Perhaps most people aren't as dedicated as you. But to deny women the opportunity to forget what happened to them by taking away the right to end the pregnancy is cruel. And like what someone said earlier, they will go back to using coathangers if they have to.

If you think a woman will magically forget the trauma of being raped by having an abortion and won't continue to suffer the psychological effects of both the rape and the abortion you are not qualified to participate in this conversation.

Both are tramatic. And I have yet to hear anyone from the pro-abortion camp suggest that an abortion magically wipes away a rape.

Further the continued use of aborting a child concieved in rape is a very poor basis to justify abortion rights for society.

Care to provide statistics showing how many women who have abortions are doing so becuase they were impregnated during a rape?

CTL

People will go back to using coathangers, eh? I'm sure some will, but if abortion is made illegal, they will be tried for whatever crime abortion is legally defined as. And they should be.

Your argument here is "well, it's going to happen anyway, so why even acknowledge that it's wrong?"

Um, because it's the right thing to do?

EDIT: Spelling.

No.

I never argued that.

I clearly stated that I view this as a fundamental right for women to control their reproductive health.

Is your response the law is right because it is the law?

Maybe you would like to visit Selma Alabama circa 1950 as a black man and try to have lunch in a white only cafe. After all, once you are charged and convicted of that crime, what recourse do you have? It was the law.

What I am talking about is natural law. We are born with certain rights. They aren't granted and we can't give them up. Reproductive rights are such rights. That for 2,000+ years men have controlled women's health care choices does not make it right.

You aren't aware of this, but let me share this little nugget with you: I can get viagra paid for by my health insurance, my wife can't get birth control pills paid for. And I don't have sh itty insurance.

CTL
No, I'm not saying the law is right because it's the law. I'm also personally insulted that I would be equated to a racist. I'm saying that certain things are wrong because of HUMAN GENERAL MORALS.

Is murder wrong? Yes.

Morals are right because they are BY THEIR OWN NATURE.

[ZForce915]

Yet you won't respond to my points....HMMM...

I think that shows more than calling your argument what it is.

If you'd like a better adjective, illogical works as well.

Hey, if you're gung-ho on having your raped daughter have that baby, then more power to you. Perhaps most people aren't as dedicated as you. But to deny women the opportunity to forget what happened to them by taking away the right to end the pregnancy is cruel. And like what someone said earlier, they will go back to using coathangers if they have to.

If you think a woman will magically forget the trauma of being raped by having an abortion and won't continue to suffer the psychological effects of both the rape and the abortion you are not qualified to participate in this conversation.

Both are tramatic. And I have yet to hear anyone from the pro-abortion camp suggest that an abortion magically wipes away a rape.

Further the continued use of aborting a child concieved in rape is a very poor basis to justify abortion rights for society.

Care to provide statistics showing how many women who have abortions are doing so becuase they were impregnated during a rape?

CTL
Glad to know that we have a psychologist on the boards who can help us out. You are a doctor right, you sure seem to know what is "fact". If you are not, maybe you aren't qualified to be in this conversation.

Anytime anyone asks for "statistics" on these boards it's because you just don't want to believe it. And so far when statistics have been posted know one believes them.

You're right, how could we know rape or abortion is traumatic?

I bet at best it's just a mild tingling sensation.

Either that or it's one of the most painful experiences a woman can have.

I knew a woman who had an abortion once. She was a family friend. She cried for months afterward, and said it was the worst decision she ever made. She has night terrors. She says if she could ever change a thing about her life, it wouldn't be getting pregnant, it would be having the abortion.

And I know another, and she doesn't look back on it. Well she admits she thinks about it, but doesn't dissagree with her descison.

[ZForce915]

Yet you won't respond to my points....HMMM...

I think that shows more than calling your argument what it is.

If you'd like a better adjective, illogical works as well.

Hey, if you're gung-ho on having your raped daughter have that baby, then more power to you. Perhaps most people aren't as dedicated as you. But to deny women the opportunity to forget what happened to them by taking away the right to end the pregnancy is cruel. And like what someone said earlier, they will go back to using coathangers if they have to.

If you think a woman will magically forget the trauma of being raped by having an abortion and won't continue to suffer the psychological effects of both the rape and the abortion you are not qualified to participate in this conversation.

Both are tramatic. And I have yet to hear anyone from the pro-abortion camp suggest that an abortion magically wipes away a rape.

Further the continued use of aborting a child concieved in rape is a very poor basis to justify abortion rights for society.

Care to provide statistics showing how many women who have abortions are doing so becuase they were impregnated during a rape?

CTL
Glad to know that we have a psychologist on the boards who can help us out. You are a doctor right, you sure seem to know what is "fact". If you are not, maybe you aren't qualified to be in this conversation.

Anytime anyone asks for "statistics" on these boards it's because you just don't want to believe it. And so far when statistics have been posted know one believes them.

I have a juris doctorate - hence ESQ.

When I ask for statistics its because your argument is meaningless without them. Particularly when you premise your argument on them.

I haven't seen any statistics. So clearly it would be a simple matter for you to provide a link....

CTL

Well I can agree if your whole argument is based on a statistic, it might be a good idea to state your source. Maybe to some people it's common knowledge (not saying anything here has been, just maybe that is how some people think?)

[JohnHam]

Yet you won't respond to my points....HMMM...

I think that shows more than calling your argument what it is.

If you'd like a better adjective, illogical works as well.

Hey, if you're gung-ho on having your raped daughter have that baby, then more power to you. Perhaps most people aren't as dedicated as you. But to deny women the opportunity to forget what happened to them by taking away the right to end the pregnancy is cruel. And like what someone said earlier, they will go back to using coathangers if they have to.

If you think a woman will magically forget the trauma of being raped by having an abortion and won't continue to suffer the psychological effects of both the rape and the abortion you are not qualified to participate in this conversation.

Both are tramatic. And I have yet to hear anyone from the pro-abortion camp suggest that an abortion magically wipes away a rape.

Further the continued use of aborting a child concieved in rape is a very poor basis to justify abortion rights for society.

Care to provide statistics showing how many women who have abortions are doing so becuase they were impregnated during a rape?

CTL
Glad to know that we have a psychologist on the boards who can help us out. You are a doctor right, you sure seem to know what is "fact". If you are not, maybe you aren't qualified to be in this conversation.

Anytime anyone asks for "statistics" on these boards it's because you just don't want to believe it. And so far when statistics have been posted know one believes them.

You're right, how could we know rape or abortion is traumatic?

I bet at best it's just a mild tingling sensation.

Either that or it's one of the most painful experiences a woman can have.

I knew a woman who had an abortion once. She was a family friend. She cried for months afterward, and said it was the worst decision she ever made. She has night terrors. She says if she could ever change a thing about her life, it wouldn't be getting pregnant, it would be having the abortion.

And I know another, and she doesn't look back on it. Well she admits she thinks about it, but doesn't dissagree with her descison.

People are different. Ask her if she thinks it was a hard experience. She will probably say yes.

[bignick]

Considering the fact that many woman do not report being raped, it would be tough to get any real numbers.

But the total number of women being raped isn't the issue.

The issue is the number of women being raped, who become pregant, who have abortions are report all the above.

If these numbers are significant relative to the total number of women having abortions, viola you have an argument.

If not, you don't.

CTL

I was just being objective on this one. You are right that we would need to know all of those things, but Im sure there are a lot that are not reported or another reason is given for the abortion.

[CTLesq]

No, I'm not saying the law is right because it's the law. I'm also personally insulted that I would be equated to a racist. I'm saying that certain things are wrong because of HUMAN GENERAL MORALS.

Is murder wrong? Yes.

Morals are right because they are BY THEIR OWN NATURE.

1. You did say something is right because its the law:

"I'm sure some will, but if abortion is made illegal, they will be tried for whatever crime abortion is legally defined as. And they should be."

You argument is specifically because something is made illegal it must be wrong.

2. As for calling you a racist I did no such thing. I made a comparison to the race laws of the 1950s. That based on your view of right and wrong and the law people charged with the crime of being black and being in the wrong place at the wrong time had no recourse: BECAUSE IT WAS THE LAW.

3. And this isn't an argument about morality. Anyone who tells you that abortion is a great thing is out of their mind. However, abortion is a repoductive right. And that trumps any other part of this discussion.

CTL

[E-Z-B]

Considering the fact that many woman do not report being raped, it would be tough to get any real numbers.

But the total number of women being raped isn't the issue.

The issue is the number of women being raped, who become pregant, who have abortions are report all the above.

If these numbers are significant relative to the total number of women having abortions, viola you have an argument.

If not, you don't.

CTL

You likely won't find unbiased statistics. Those medical records are confidential, and I don't even know if they track that or not. And consider that more than 80% of rapes are never reported to law enforcement.

[CTLesq]

Well I can agree if your whole argument is based on a statistic, it might be a good idea to state your source. Maybe to some people it's common knowledge (not saying anything here has been, just maybe that is how some people think?)

And I just think there are better arguments for supporting abortion rights.

CTL

[CTLesq]

Considering the fact that many woman do not report being raped, it would be tough to get any real numbers.

But the total number of women being raped isn't the issue.

The issue is the number of women being raped, who become pregant, who have abortions are report all the above.

If these numbers are significant relative to the total number of women having abortions, viola you have an argument.

If not, you don't.

CTL

You likely won't find unbiased statistics. Those medical records are confidential, and I don't even know if they track that or not. And consider that more than 80% of rapes are never reported to law enforcement.

Yes, medical records of patients are private. Overall trends are not.

Again, this has NOTHING to do with OVERALL RAPES.

THIS HAS TO DO WITH THE PERCENTAGE OF ABORTIONS relative TO THE TOTAL NUMBER OF ABORTIONS PERFORMED.

Its not a hard concept. Yes, I am certain some number of women have been raped and ahve an abortion and don't bring it up.

But I am not claiming rape is a sufficient significant to justify granting abortion rights.

CTL

[JohnHam]

No, I'm not saying the law is right because it's the law. I'm also personally insulted that I would be equated to a racist. I'm saying that certain things are wrong because of HUMAN GENERAL MORALS.

Is murder wrong? Yes.

Morals are right because they are BY THEIR OWN NATURE.

1. You did say something is right because its the law:

"I'm sure some will, but if abortion is made illegal, they will be tried for whatever crime abortion is legally defined as. And they should be."

You argument is specifically because something is made illegal it must be wrong.

2. As for calling you a racist I did no such thing. I made a comparison to the race laws of the 1950s. That based on your view of right and wrong and the law people charged with the crime of being black and being in the wrong place at the wrong time had no recourse: BECAUSE IT WAS THE LAW.

3. And this isn't an argument about morality. Anyone who tells you that abortion is a great thing is out of their mind. However, abortion is a repoductive right. And that trumps any other part of this discussion.

CTL

1. No I didn't, it might be bad wording on my part though. I meant that because abortion is murder, it is wrong, and should be punished. I just added the legality stuff to show that if/when abortion becomes illegal, I doubt it will be defined as a murder, more likely a manslaughter charge.

2. I understand the similarity, but I never said what you thought I did. And also, I NEVER implied you said I was a racist. You're a debater here, not a name-caller. I just said that you equated my position based in morals to one based in ignorance. It was insulting.

3. Abortion is not a right, it is murder. Murder is wrong. Abortion is wrong. And therefore this is a moral argument because you are saying that something that is murder is an acceptable thing.

[E-Z-B]

Considering the fact that many woman do not report being raped, it would be tough to get any real numbers.

But the total number of women being raped isn't the issue.

The issue is the number of women being raped, who become pregant, who have abortions are report all the above.

If these numbers are significant relative to the total number of women having abortions, viola you have an argument.

If not, you don't.

CTL

You likely won't find unbiased statistics. Those medical records are confidential, and I don't even know if they track that or not. And consider that more than 80% of rapes are never reported to law enforcement.

Yes, medical records of patients are private. Overall trends are not.

Again, this has NOTHING to do with OVERALL RAPES.

THIS HAS TO DO WITH THE PERCENTAGE OF ABORTIONS relative TO THE TOTAL NUMBER OF ABORTIONS PERFORMED.

Its not a hard concept. Yes, I am certain some number of women have been raped and ahve an abortion and don't bring it up.

But I am not claiming rape is a sufficient significant to justify granting abortion rights.

CTL

I think you missed the point. The point is that if only 80% of women bother to tell the police, then how many would bother to fill out a questionaire? Therefore, you will never know the answer you're looking for.

[CTLesq]

I think you missed the point. The point is that if only 80% of women bother to tell the police, then how many would bother to fill out a questionaire? Therefore, you will never know the answer you're looking for.

No I fully understand what you are saying. People are claiming rape is a reason to allow women to abort children. Fine.

And in fact, from looking at the arguments for abortion in this thread, rape appears to be THE reason allow abortion.

Then there should be some statistics to back up that a significant number (this is the important part) of abortions are done as a result of pregnancy induced by rape.

You can't have it both ways: There are no statistics but this is the major reason to allow abortion.

My money is the number of women, who are raped, who do get pregnant, who do opt for abortions is significantly less than people would like you to believe.

Its not to say it doesn't happen. I am sure it does. But if your only argument for abortion rights is rape...its a very weak argument.

CTL

[evilmax17]

It's much worse to not give the child a chance.

Also I dont think anyone here thinks that rapist should be given a choice or that rape victims shouldnt be allowed to get an abortion. This shouldnt even be brought up but pro-choicers love to spin arguements around. Its obvious that rapist would have to go to trial and sure...it may become a legal issue the courts would decide on a per case basis...just like every rape. If someone is convicted of rape they would lose any rights to a baby and they most likely would get jail time...Problem solved. Is that so hard to understand.

Actually, kinda yeah. It's already been said on this thread that the overwhelming majority of rapes that occur aren't reported. Most rapists aren't caught, or tried, because they aren't reported. This metaphorical "jail time", in most cases, wouldn't occur.


We shouldnt be making anyone a victim. I am for the Death Penalty because the perpetrator is NOT a victim. I am pro-life because you victimize the unborn and KILL THEM. The government should stop allowing this practice. It would make sense. Fathers just dont have the proper rights. Many of you have never gotten a woman pregnant. So you really have little basis for your opinions other than what you hear, read, and think. To have first hand experience in the matter is important. When my wife first got pregnant I quickly realized that it was only HER choice, according to current laws, whether or not to have the baby. I really wanted it...but if she decided otherwise then I was screwed and the baby would be dead. How is this fair? A woman can easily protect herself from getting pregnant. Force the man to wear a condom, use gels, take a pill, and such.

Alright, I think that you think that more "suprise abortions" happen than really do. I'm almost certain that rarely, if EVER has a wife come home and told her husband "Well lets see, I went shopping, got my nails done, and oh yeah, got that abortion you didn't want me to get." I'd like to see the statistics of single woman getting abortions as opposed to married women, and also the stats for woman under 20 as opposed to over. You're basing your arguement on the fact that most men are willing to support these mothers, which is simply not the case.

Wrap your mind around this. You say abortions should be illegal, alright, fine. Giving the child "a chance" instead of killing it. Alright, that sounds good. So lets say we have a 16 year old girl who gets pregnant. Her parent's aren't supptive at all, and her boyfriend runs off, wanting nothing to do with it. So, she has to have the baby. Giving it a chance, right? Well now she has no money what-so-ever to support this child and give it a "chance". So what are her options, to go on welfare? I'd be more than willing to bet that you're against welfare also, so where is the winning situation? It seems like she's damned if she does, damned if she doesn't.

[PsyClerk]

Living in the area that I do makes me wish abortion was retroactive. Not to be confused with Radioactive, the smash hit by the Firm.

Somebody quote me so I can feel like I'm a part of this thread.

[judyjudyjudy]

I don't think anybody is claiming that rape is the ONLY reason to allow abortion. It's certainly a valid reason, as it does happen. It's not the main reason people get abortion, but it's a reason to not abolish it. Rape pregnancy is just a worst case scenario that, possibly, even pro-lifers might concede to an abortion. It's just for all the other reasons aside from extreme cases, it really depends on person.

[evilmax17]

Living in the area that I do makes me wish abortion was retroactive. Not to be confused with Radioactive, the smash hit by the Firm.

Somebody quote me so I can feel like I'm a part of this thread.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[goatindaruffness]

If Bush wants people to stop "killing" unborn children then why doesn't he set an example by not murdering innocent middle easterners...
-Goatman

[drone8888]

Actually, who the SHAQ are all of you??

Who gives you the right to judge someones actions??

Its funny, how society, can blind one, from using common sense.

If this was a truly FREE country, and a free, world, then this wouldn't even be a topic open for discussion.

You create these rules, to correlate with your ideals, and religions. Anyone who doesn't agree with the majority's findings, is held in contempt.

You all are retarded to think you are just innocent, GOOD people.

There is no good or bad, yet you see the need to toss a label on any action, that you find to be, out of the norm.

Funny how you can go hunting, fishing, logging, etc, and have no problem.

Hell, you even join the military, and the police force, and kill in the name of this country. Yet, because the majority, deems it honorable, it is alright. Besides that, most of you, will even seek repentance with your lord.

As if a perfect God, would make such considerations, for killing his/her/its, children.

How stupid so you have to be??

Do you really feel guilty, when the IRS sends you too much money, and never notices it??

Funny, how most of you will keep it, and never say anything.

You will think of many excuses, why its alright. How its not hurting anyone else. Why you deserve it.

When the land is cleansed again, the dream will be good. Humans will wander freely, to do as they please.

Without some false sense of guilt, or conscience. They will act as an intelligent beast would. They will survive, and in the mean time, maybe learn how to live happily.

Without the false sense of a cause, or goals, the mind will have the chance to become enlightened. With no taught logic, or religious rhetoric, the human may become one with the energy, which flows through us all.

There is a big picture.

You have just been taught how to focus on particular things.

A primitive mine, needs to segment things, to understand it all.
Although the mind is NOT, primitive, that is a term , you will probably understand.

Try not thinking so much. Look at this world for what it is.

There is no this, and that. It is all one.

There aren't really words, that ARE something. There are no synonyms, or antonyms.

Everything, "IS"!




Oh, this is not crazy talk. It is opinion, just like you all have.
Funny, how someones opinion, can differ so drastically from others.
Already, a few comments have been made, and I have not done anything but speak my mind.

So if you disagree. If someone doesn't sell you, with slanderous, exaggerated b/s, you will not listen??
Thats right. That is how you all work. Without guidance, from someone, or something, you would be lost.

The sad thing is, you are all lost already.

You don't need someone to tell you what to do. If you think this is wrong, you fail.

[judyjudyjudy]

1. I don't think current abortion laws are equitable to men. If the mother decides she wants to give birth to the child and the father doesn't want that he should be given the choice to opt out, legally, so that he bears no responsibility, financial or otherwise, for the kid. Women can have the final say in their kid's life and death, but they can accept all the responsibility that comes with that choice also, I say.


I actually kind of agree with that. Some women have "trapped" men by having their children even though the father didn't want to go through with it. Too bad it doesn't cover the emotional consequences, assuming you care that a child has your genes.

[defender]

I am not against welfare...

technically I am on welfare now

We get assistance for food to buy milk, cheese, and eggs for the kids.

This arguement is going no where fast as all discussions of Abortion always do. One side says this..the other says that.

In the end its always the same result...nothing changes.

I am out of this one as it is too annoying to even read. This is why I dont allow political discussion at my job. Its too easy to get pissed and then someone usually losses their cool (me). Maybe this site should create a Politics Forums. It can be tiring arguing all the time when nothing is accomplished. Its nearly impossible to change someones mind or opinion.

[evilmax17]

I am not against welfare...

technically I am on welfare now

We get assistance for food to buy milk, cheese, and eggs for the kids.

This arguement is going no where fast as all discussions of Abortion always do. One side says this..the other says that.

In the end its always the same result...nothing changes.

I am out of this one as it is too annoying to even read. This is why I dont allow political discussion at my job. Its too easy to get pissed and then someone usually losses their cool (me). Maybe this site should create a Politics Forums. It can be tiring arguing all the time when nothing is accomplished. Its nearly impossible to change someones mind or opinion.

Fully agreed. Politics forum, not a bad idea? Would it be possible to keep those posts off of the "Latest Forum Posts" on the front page? That'd make things a hell of a lot cleaner around here :D

[Quackzilla]

If Bush is pro life than why is he increasing the infant mortality rate by easing mercury restrictions?


Also, if abortion is made illegal, and a woman terminates the pregnancy with a pill will she be charged with murder?
I mean like a sodium or potassium compound that would hurt the mother but kill the fetus.

[chunk]

If Bush wants people to stop "killing" unborn children then why doesn't he set an example by not murdering innocent middle easterners...
-Goatman

ditto

[paz9x]

F choice.

[Quackzilla]

F choice.

Wow, how intelligent. YOu changed my opinion.

[paz9x]

F choice.

Wow, how intelligent. YOu changed my opinion.

I could care less about altering your opinion, I just stated mine.

[JohnHam]

*inane rambling*

I don't understand what point you're trying to make that's at all relevant.

And as to people not having the right to judge others. I am not judging others, specifically. I am judging abortion in and of itself. I believe abortion is murder, through and through.

If Bush wants people to stop "killing" unborn children then why doesn't he set an example by not murdering innocent middle easterners...
-Goatman

He's not murdering anybody. This is the epitomy of Liberal BS. Soldiers in Iraq are not over there killing civillians, they are only fighting those who expressly uprise against the troops and new Iraqi government, to protect your ungrateful ass.

We really should be grateful for once, as a nation. I'm speaking to liberals primarily who can't see past their blind hatred of one man to see the thousands of soldiers fighting FOR THEIR SECURITY.

[evilmax17]

F choice.

[JohnHam]

F choice.

fucking owned.

[E-Z-B]

*inane rambling*

I don't understand what point you're trying to make that's at all relevant.

And as to people not having the right to judge others. I am not judging others, specifically. I am judging abortion in and of itself. I believe abortion is murder, through and through.

If Bush wants people to stop "killing" unborn children then why doesn't he set an example by not murdering innocent middle easterners...
-Goatman

He's not murdering anybody. This is the epitomy of Liberal BS. Soldiers in Iraq are not over there killing civillians, they are only fighting those who expressly uprise against the troops and new Iraqi government, to protect your ungrateful ass.

We really should be grateful for once, as a nation. I'm speaking to liberals primarily who can't see past their blind hatred of one man to see the thousands of soldiers fighting FOR THEIR SECURITY.

:roll: You really aren't informed at all. Over the past two weeks, U.S. forces have killed over 650 civilians in Fallujah itself. That includes women and children caught in crossfire. Although they can't all be confirmed, some likely did happen. To say that americans aren't killing civilians is like the republicans acting all surprised about vietnam and demanding to know what "atrocities" kerry witnessed in vietnam. That's conservative "B.S.", as you put it, brainwashing america.

To say you're not judging those who perform abortions, only abortions itself, sounds like your just avoiding the issue by rephrasing your stance. Good way to mislead people. Fact is, you're really judging women who perform abortions. It's not YOUR concern. We're all judged in the end by a supreme being. NOT YOU.

[JohnHam]

*inane rambling*

I don't understand what point you're trying to make that's at all relevant.

And as to people not having the right to judge others. I am not judging others, specifically. I am judging abortion in and of itself. I believe abortion is murder, through and through.

If Bush wants people to stop "killing" unborn children then why doesn't he set an example by not murdering innocent middle easterners...
-Goatman

He's not murdering anybody. This is the epitomy of Liberal BS. Soldiers in Iraq are not over there killing civillians, they are only fighting those who expressly uprise against the troops and new Iraqi government, to protect your ungrateful ass.

We really should be grateful for once, as a nation. I'm speaking to liberals primarily who can't see past their blind hatred of one man to see the thousands of soldiers fighting FOR THEIR SECURITY.

:roll: You really aren't informed at all. Over the past two weeks, U.S. forces have killed over 650 civilians in Fallujah itself. That includes women and children caught in crossfire. Although they can't all be confirmed, some likely did happen. To say that americans aren't killing civilians is like the republicans acting all surprised about vietnam and demanding to know what "atrocities" kerry witnessed in vietnam. That's conservative "B.S.", as you put it, brainwashing america.

To say you're not judging those who perform abortions, only abortions itself, sounds like your just avoiding the issue by rephrasing your stance. Good way to mislead people. Fact is, you're really judging women who perform abortions. It's not YOUR concern. We're all judged in the end by a supreme being. NOT YOU.

You can state points without being hostile next time, thanks.

The numbers of civillian wounded and killed are impossible to gauge because different outlets give different numbers. The way it was phrased in the original implied more or less that soldiers were flat out murdering civillians, which is not true. As you stated, some have been hurt or killed because they were caught in the crossfire. Many of those who died were most likely not shot all by Americans, we're not the only ones shooting a weapon. Civillian casualties occur in any war, but they are NEVER intentional, except for certain circumstances (Hitler, for example).

Secondly, I am being serious when I say I do not judge people who get abortions. I believe abortions are wrong, but as I said before, I have a friend who has had an abortion. People who get abortions are not by default bad people. This is you inferring things from what I wrote that have no reality behind them.

For someone so concerned about women and children in Iraq you certainly don't care much about all the children being murdered everyday in abortions.

[E-Z-B]

For someone so concerned about women and children in Iraq you certainly don't care much about all the children being murdered everyday in abortions.

And for someone who's so against abortion you don't care much about the civilians dieing in Iraq. Those insurgents are the general population. Not terroritsts. Not Saddam's soldiers. They want one goal: the liberation of their country. Can you blame them? But I bet you support Bush 100% on this. Meaning that civilians deaths are just collateral damage, so long as we establish "a democracy" there.

[CTLesq]

For someone so concerned about women and children in Iraq you certainly don't care much about all the children being murdered everyday in abortions.

And for someone who's so against abortion you don't care much about the civilians dieing in Iraq. Those insurgents are the general population. Not terroritsts. Not Saddam's soldiers. They want one goal: the liberation of their country. Can you blame them? But I bet you support Bush 100% on this. Meaning that civilians deaths are just collateral damage, so long as we establish "a democracy" there.

You believe al-Sadr wants his country "liberated"? You are kidding me right?

As for the "general population" uprising that is utterly innacurate. And to the extent they arm themselves and become combatants they are no longer civillian and lose any protection they may or may not have under the Geneva Convention.

To the extent that those engaged in an uprising store weapons or use in a mosque, school, or hospital to launch attacks against the Coalition, those facilities and the people in them become legitimate military targets.

You cannot have it both ways.

Further the unprecedented steps taken by the US to limit civillian casualties in Iraq is unheard of in modern war.

That 650 civillians in Falluja or Najaf have been killed is regrettable.

Place the blame where it belongs: the insurgents that have hidden in civillan areas and refuse to surrender their weapons and themselves.

CTL

[E-Z-B]

For someone so concerned about women and children in Iraq you certainly don't care much about all the children being murdered everyday in abortions.

And for someone who's so against abortion you don't care much about the civilians dieing in Iraq. Those insurgents are the general population. Not terroritsts. Not Saddam's soldiers. They want one goal: the liberation of their country. Can you blame them? But I bet you support Bush 100% on this. Meaning that civilians deaths are just collateral damage, so long as we establish "a democracy" there.

You believe al-Sadr wants his country "liberated"? You are kidding me right?

As for the "general population" uprising that is utterly innacurate. And to the extent they arm themselves and become combatants they are no longer civillian and lose any protection they may or may not have under the Geneva Convention.

To the extent that those engaged in an uprising store weapons or use in a mosque, school, or hospital to launch attacks against the Coalition, those facilities and the people in them become legitimate military targets.

You cannot have it both ways.

Further the unprecedented steps taken by the US to limit civillian casualties in Iraq is unheard of in modern war.

That 650 civillians in Falluja or Najaf have been killed is regrettable.

Place the blame where it belongs: the insurgents that have hidden in civillan areas and refuse to surrender their weapons and themselves.

CTL

So by your logic if the Japanese had invaded us in WWII and occupied us for years, then an uprising here with weapons means that we are combatants and lose any protection just like the Iraqis. And of course al-Sadr wants his country "liberated", meaning free from Americans. Look it up. Liberated: to free (as a country) from domination by a foreign power. You people speak in a hyprocritical tone.

[Shaddap]

This is a simple one, abortion is simply wrong. It is an act of the termination of life. As a man, I would like to have a say if my child were to be killed, as the fetus' DNA is 50% mine. I am not a conserative religous fanatic, in fact, I'm quite liberal. But when I hear horror stories of my peers, who basically use abortion as a form of birth control and a license to have unprotected sex...it SICKENS ME.

[Quackzilla]

If Bush is pro life than why is he increasing the infant mortality rate by easing mercury restrictions?


Also, if abortion is made illegal, and a woman terminates the pregnancy with a poison will she be charged with murder?
I mean like a sodium or potassium compound that would hurt the mother but kill the fetus.

Strange that there was no answer from the religious nuts.

[suprsaiyanMAX]

Well I'm not a religous nut, but as for your second question about the murder thing, technically I believe she could be charged with murder now even (with abortion legal) depending on the circumstances of the case.

[Han Solo]

If you were a baby in the womb, would you be pro-life or pro-choice?

[Han Solo]

"If Bush is pro life than why is he increasing the infant mortality rate by easing mercury restrictions? "

I am assuming that you are concerned about infant mortality. Are you also concerned about the life of an unborn child?

"Also, if abortion is made illegal, and a woman terminates the pregnancy with a poison will she be charged with murder?
I mean like a sodium or potassium compound that would hurt the mother but kill the fetus."

At least you recognize that the fetus is indeed alive.

[Quackzilla]

Living as in biological tissue.

Not killing a living entity but killing biological matter.

And the infant mortality thing, that is where babies die when they are born or are born dead. Usually by parents who really want the child.

[Quackzilla]

If you were a baby in the womb, would you be pro-life or pro-choice?

That would require neurological activity.

[daroga]

It's really amazing to me the two-faced system of law we have in this country. A woman has the "right" to abort her unborn child, yet if someone kills a pregnant woman s/he can be charged with a double homicide. The child in the womb is a person when it's conveient.

Abortion has never made any sense to me. Even looking at it apart from my religious beliefs, it's nothing but pure self-centeredness. Do these women who get abortions have any idea how many millions of couples in the United States alone would love to adopt a child because they cannot have one under the normal means? Yet rather than doing what would be best for the child (giving it a chance to live) and what's best for these would-be parents, we do what's best for ME and get an abortion so that my lifestyle isn't hampered for nine months. It's sick, really.

[Quackzilla]

Your male, right?

Men should have no say in this matter.

[E-Z-B]

It's really amazing to me the two-faced system of law we have in this country. A woman has the "right" to abort her unborn child, yet if someone kills a pregnant woman s/he can be charged with a double homicide. The child in the womb is a person when it's conveient.

It is double-standards, but the conservatives pushed Bush into signing it a law just recently. It's also called the erosion of abortion rights. It won't be long until these same conservatives use the argument "if it's a crime for someone to injure/kill a fetus, then why isn't it a crime for a doctor to do the same?" Thus, the end of abortion rights begins.

[daroga]

Men should have no say in this matter.

You're right, because no man in the history of this earth has ever had a concern for the saftey of a child or woman. That "you don't know" line of reasoning is rather illogical.

If we're talking about rights, as a citizen of this country I have the right to be concerned and express my concern over what my country does. Genders are supposed to be equal, aren't they? It's illogical and unethical to disregard anyone's opinion on any issue based solely on gender (or race, or creed, or any other division you may draw).

[daroga]

It is double-standards, but the conservatives pushed Bush into signing it a law just recently. It's also called the erosion of abortion rights. It won't be long until these same conservatives use the argument "if it's a crime for someone to injure/kill a fetus, then why isn't it a crime for a doctor to do the same?" Thus, the end of abortion rights begins.

I'd be lying if I didn't say I was in support of the direction things are going according to your summation of the events, but I really can't stand this hypocritical stance we have. Go one way or the other. Riding the fence only pisses people off on both side.

[evilmax17]

It's really amazing to me the two-faced system of law we have in this country. A woman has the "right" to abort her unborn child, yet if someone kills a pregnant woman s/he can be charged with a double homicide. The child in the womb is a person when it's conveient.

Abortion has never made any sense to me. Even looking at it apart from my religious beliefs, it's nothing but pure self-centeredness. Do these women who get abortions have any idea how many millions of couples in the United States alone would love to adopt a child because they cannot have one under the normal means? Yet rather than doing what would be best for the child (giving it a chance to live) and what's best for these would-be parents, we do what's best for ME and get an abortion so that my lifestyle isn't hampered for nine months. It's sick, really.

I emphasized something that I thought was important. First I'm going to address the "selfish" part of your post, then the adoption.

If anything, it's being self-less. If a woman knows that she doesn't have the propper means to bring the child up in a reasonably responsible environment, then she's doing the right thing. Knowingly raising a child in an unfit or unpropper atmosphere is nothing short of child abuse. Kids who grow up in houses with drugaddict mothers and abusive fathers turn out to be next generation's serial killers. Bottom line: if you know that you won't be able to provide an adequate environment for a child to grow up in, getting an abortion is a responsible thing to do. I'm willing to bet that a lot of people are ready to jump on this comment by saying "You're saying that killing a child is better than letting it grow up, regardless of environment" or some such, but this boils down to the definition of baby, child, life, fetus, etc. In my opinion (since there is no fact about this, it's all opinion), life doesn't begin until you're born. Birth, creation, the start of a life. But that's another arguement.

As for adoption, yeah, i agree that 9/10 times it's a better option than abortion. I would have to worry about the overcrowding of adoption houses (I want to say orphanages, but i don't think that's the correct word?) though.

[evilmax17]

Men should have no say in this matter.

You're right, because no man in the history of this earth has ever had a concern for the saftey of a child or woman. That "you don't know" line of reasoning is rather illogical.

If we're talking about rights, as a citizen of this country I have the right to be concerned and express my concern over what my country does. Genders are supposed to be equal, aren't they? It's illogical and unethical to disregard anyone's opinion on any issue based solely on gender (or race, or creed, or any other division you may draw).

Yeah, both genders are supposed to be equal in the eyes of rights and the law, but physically they're different. It'd be like trying to explain getting kicked in the balls to a woman. They can say that they understand, but they'll never know how it feels. Just like men can't know what it's like to give birth, have an abortion, or be pregnant. It's for this reason that it should be left up to women, because conceptually we might understand a thing or two, but realistically we don't.

[PsyClerk]

Your male, right?

Men should have no say in this matter.

So you're a woman, right?

[Han Solo]

"That would require neurological activity."

At what point does neurological activity in an unborn child begin?

[Han Solo]

"THOU SHALL NOT MURDER." Exodus 20:13

"From each man I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man. Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man. Genesis 9:5b-6

"For You created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Your works are wonderful, this I know. My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be." Psalms 139:13-16

"Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you." Jeremiah 1:5

"Did not He who made me in the womb make him, and the same One fashion us in the womb?" Job 31:15

"You have been my guide since I was first formed, my security at my mother's breast. To you I was committed at birth, from my mother's womb you are my God." Psalms 22: 10-11

"As you do not know what is the way of the wind, or how the bones grow in the womb of her who is with child, so you do not know the works of God who makes all things." Ecclesiastes 11:5

"Deliver those who are being taken away to death, and those who are staggering to slaughter, O hold them back. If you say, 'See, we did not know this', does He not consider it who weighs the hearts? And does He not know it who keeps your soul? And will He not render to man according to his work?" Proverbs 24:11-12

[PsyClerk]

If you're a Christian, didn't the coming of Christ and his resulting death/resurrection nullify all the old laws and what have you from the Old Testament? I mean, that's how it was supposed to happen anyways.

BTW, not everyone subscribes to Judeo-Christian tenets. Need something to convince them.

[evilmax17]

Bible stuff

I thought that being a Star Wars fan and an avid Christian was illegal? Which is it kid? The Force...or God?

[Drek]

Logical breakdown of the subject:

Abortion after the first three weeks of pregancy, when the unborn child begins to develop brain patterns, is killing an intelligent life, by defenition murder.

Murder is only approved of by law when done through self defense. Therefore unless said unborn child poses a danger to the mother's life, abortion should not be legal.

Rape cases: A raped woman should obviously file a police report, at which time any assisting officer will obviously strongly urge the woman to seek medical attention, at which time a pregnancy test will be performed (standard procedure for rape victims). Medical attention for such cases is available throughout this country at various free clinics. Failure to file a police report, or seek medical attention, is negligence on the woman's part. Therefore if she refuses to follow up on appropriate post-rape actions within three weeks she voids her right to terminate any potential pregancies, due to her own choice to be negligent.

Final note: The whole "better than coat hangers" arguement is idiotic since the legalization of abortion has dramatically inreased the frequency at which they would occur. If one agrees that an abortion is an immoral act, yet condones the legalization of them because "they're best done the safe way" one is in error, since one is therefore promoting and supporting what one considers an immoral act, which is the very epitome of hypocracy.

[Han Solo]

"I thought that being a Star Wars fan and an avid Christian was illegal? Which is it kid? The Force...or God?"

I don't believe that using one's imagination is wrong. I am sure there are some Christians out there that would disagree with me about how one is allowed to use his/her imagination.

"Jesus says, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." (Matthew 17: 20)"

Yoda taught Luke to have faith that he could move the X-Wing from the swamp. I am not saying that George Lucas intended this to be influenced by the Bible, but the Biblical principle is reinforced to me when I watch Star Wars.

I concede that many religious leaders would say that Star Wars is "bad". I disagree with them. Not everything in the Bible is a black and white issue. However, on the topic of abortion, the Bible could not be more clear.

[evilmax17]

Rape cases: A raped woman should obviously file a police report, at which time any assisting officer will obviously strongly urge the woman to seek medical attention, at which time a pregnancy test will be performed (standard procedure for rape victims). Medical attention for such cases is available throughout this country at various free clinics. Failure to file a police report, or seek medical attention, is negligence on the woman's part. Therefore if she refuses to follow up on appropriate post-rape actions within three weeks she voids her right to terminate any potential pregancies, due to her own choice to be negligent.


Man, you ever hear of feelings? If a woman is horribly humiliated and embarressed, you're saying that it's HER fault if she doesn't report the rape? See, this is why this truely should be a woman's issue. If men can't comprehend what it feels to be raped, they shouldn't have any political power behind a decision to ban abortion. "Her own choice to be negligent?", as if she thinks to her self "eh, i've got a busy day, i'll report it tommorow." Is that how you really think it works? How inhumanly cold is that?

[PsyClerk]

Someone is comparing the Bible to Star Wars?!?

Hold on, I gotta PM JimmieMac, he's GOT to see this.

[Han Solo]

"If you're a Christian, didn't the coming of Christ and his resulting death/resurrection nullify all the old laws and what have you from the Old Testament? I mean, that's how it was supposed to happen anyways."

http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/series/SOM/L10/L100.html

[evilmax17]

Hansolox, you can quote people by locating their post and hitting the "QUOTE" button on the top right of it. Just to make for more uniformity :wink:

[Han Solo]

"Someone is comparing the Bible to Star Wars?!?"

No, I am not comparing the Bible directly to Star Wars. George Lucas says that many different religions influenced him when making Star Wars. I am sure that Christianity was one of many religions that influenced him.

edit: Here is a link to an interview with George Lucas on the subject:

http://www.next-wave.org/may99/starwars.htm

[Han Solo]

Hansolox, you can quote people by locating their post and hitting the "QUOTE" button on the top right of it. Just to make for more uniformity :wink:

I did it! :D

I agree, it does provide for better organization. I need to take some time to learn about more of the board's features.

[PsyClerk]

So you're saying the Old Testament laws are still in effect?

WOOHOO! Slaves and wife beatings all around! Good-bye women's lib! Hello dark ages!

[evilmax17]

So you're saying the Old Testament laws are still in effect?

WOOHOO! Slaves and wife beatings all around! Good-bye women's lib! Hello dark ages!

Wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy ahead of you!

[daroga]

For orthodox Christianity, Jesus fulfilled the laws, most notable the ceremional laws of the temple that were a shadow of what his life would be. Jesus' own ministry supported the moral laws (which one may summarize as the 10 Commandments) and was reaffirmed by God's words through the apostles after Jesus' ascension. We don't offer sacrifices anymore because they were all a shadow, a picture of Jesus' ultimate sacrifice of his life on the cross for the full payment for the sins of mankind.

The moral laws are still in effect (do not kill, steal, etc.), where as the ceremonial (worship regulations) and civil (laws for Israel as a nation) have been done away with.

Hope that clears some of this up.

[paz9x]

Your male, right?

Men should have no say in this matter.

do you have a child? have you carried a child?

do you know what it feels like to deal with having aborted a child?

youll probably lie and say yes to try and further your point, but until you have dealt with it you are as much an "outsider" to this as a male.

And s you have no idea what it feels like to be a male and deal with this you have no perspective to be telling anybody what their input should be

[paz9x]

It's really amazing to me the two-faced system of law we have in this country. A woman has the "right" to abort her unborn child, yet if someone kills a pregnant woman s/he can be charged with a double homicide. The child in the womb is a person when it's conveient.

Abortion has never made any sense to me. Even looking at it apart from my religious beliefs, it's nothing but pure self-centeredness. Do these women who get abortions have any idea how many millions of couples in the United States alone would love to adopt a child because they cannot have one under the normal means? Yet rather than doing what would be best for the child (giving it a chance to live) and what's best for these would-be parents, we do what's best for ME and get an abortion so that my lifestyle isn't hampered for nine months. It's sick, really.

I emphasized something that I thought was important. First I'm going to address the "selfish" part of your post, then the adoption.

If anything, it's being self-less. If a woman knows that she doesn't have the propper means to bring the child up in a reasonably responsible environment, then she's doing the right thing. Knowingly raising a child in an unfit or unpropper atmosphere is nothing short of child abuse. Kids who grow up in houses with drugaddict mothers and abusive fathers turn out to be next generation's serial killers. Bottom line: if you know that you won't be able to provide an adequate environment for a child to grow up in, getting an abortion is a responsible thing to do. I'm willing to bet that a lot of people are ready to jump on this comment by saying "You're saying that killing a child is better than letting it grow up, regardless of environment" or some such, but this boils down to the definition of baby, child, life, fetus, etc. In my opinion (since there is no fact about this, it's all opinion), life doesn't begin until you're born. Birth, creation, the start of a life. But that's another arguement.

As for adoption, yeah, i agree that 9/10 times it's a better option than abortion. I would have to worry about the overcrowding of adoption houses (I want to say orphanages, but i don't think that's the correct word?) though.

Thats a BS position to take.

we live in a socialist society where people have children to enable the collecting of increased government subsidation.

the position you listed has nothing to do with the possibility of rearing a child in a less than acceptable enviornment and everything to do with fear and the selfishness to alter ones lifestyle.

[judyjudyjudy]

It's really amazing to me the two-faced system of law we have in this country. A woman has the "right" to abort her unborn child, yet if someone kills a pregnant woman s/he can be charged with a double homicide. The child in the womb is a person when it's conveient.

Abortion has never made any sense to me. Even looking at it apart from my religious beliefs, it's nothing but pure self-centeredness. Do these women who get abortions have any idea how many millions of couples in the United States alone would love to adopt a child because they cannot have one under the normal means? Yet rather than doing what would be best for the child (giving it a chance to live) and what's best for these would-be parents, we do what's best for ME and get an abortion so that my lifestyle isn't hampered for nine months. It's sick, really.

I emphasized something that I thought was important. First I'm going to address the "selfish" part of your post, then the adoption.

If anything, it's being self-less. If a woman knows that she doesn't have the propper means to bring the child up in a reasonably responsible environment, then she's doing the right thing. Knowingly raising a child in an unfit or unpropper atmosphere is nothing short of child abuse. Kids who grow up in houses with drugaddict mothers and abusive fathers turn out to be next generation's serial killers. Bottom line: if you know that you won't be able to provide an adequate environment for a child to grow up in, getting an abortion is a responsible thing to do. I'm willing to bet that a lot of people are ready to jump on this comment by saying "You're saying that killing a child is better than letting it grow up, regardless of environment" or some such, but this boils down to the definition of baby, child, life, fetus, etc. In my opinion (since there is no fact about this, it's all opinion), life doesn't begin until you're born. Birth, creation, the start of a life. But that's another arguement.

As for adoption, yeah, i agree that 9/10 times it's a better option than abortion. I would have to worry about the overcrowding of adoption houses (I want to say orphanages, but i don't think that's the correct word?) though.

Thats a BS position to take.

we live in a socialist society where people have children to enable the collecting of increased government subsidation.

the position you listed has nothing to do with the possibility of rearing a child in a less than acceptable enviornment and everything to do with fear and the selfishness to alter ones lifestyle.

Like government subsidation is enough to properly raise a child. Government subsidation isn't enough for families who have and love their children, let alone people who didn't want the responsibility in the first place. I don't see how that argument is BS. Like evilmax19 said, having an abortion is an act of responsibility, especially if neither parent is ready to have children. (But when is anyone really ready, right?) I don't want my tax money to go to unwilling and irresponsible parents anyways. There are better places to spend government money.

And in a homicide, the woman had no choice to say whether or not she wanted her baby (and herself) to live. And I know people are going to say in response, but the baby has no choice on whether or not to live in an abortion. I agree life begins at conception, but does a fetus have feelings? I don't think so (at least early on). If I was a three week old fetus, I don't think I'd have much of an opinion of whether or not I'm aborted or not, so I can't make a choice anyways.

[paz9x]

It's really amazing to me the two-faced system of law we have in this country. A woman has the "right" to abort her unborn child, yet if someone kills a pregnant woman s/he can be charged with a double homicide. The child in the womb is a person when it's conveient.

Abortion has never made any sense to me. Even looking at it apart from my religious beliefs, it's nothing but pure self-centeredness. Do these women who get abortions have any idea how many millions of couples in the United States alone would love to adopt a child because they cannot have one under the normal means? Yet rather than doing what would be best for the child (giving it a chance to live) and what's best for these would-be parents, we do what's best for ME and get an abortion so that my lifestyle isn't hampered for nine months. It's sick, really.

I emphasized something that I thought was important. First I'm going to address the "selfish" part of your post, then the adoption.

If anything, it's being self-less. If a woman knows that she doesn't have the propper means to bring the child up in a reasonably responsible environment, then she's doing the right thing. Knowingly raising a child in an unfit or unpropper atmosphere is nothing short of child abuse. Kids who grow up in houses with drugaddict mothers and abusive fathers turn out to be next generation's serial killers. Bottom line: if you know that you won't be able to provide an adequate environment for a child to grow up in, getting an abortion is a responsible thing to do. I'm willing to bet that a lot of people are ready to jump on this comment by saying "You're saying that killing a child is better than letting it grow up, regardless of environment" or some such, but this boils down to the definition of baby, child, life, fetus, etc. In my opinion (since there is no fact about this, it's all opinion), life doesn't begin until you're born. Birth, creation, the start of a life. But that's another arguement.

As for adoption, yeah, i agree that 9/10 times it's a better option than abortion. I would have to worry about the overcrowding of adoption houses (I want to say orphanages, but i don't think that's the correct word?) though.

Thats a BS position to take.

we live in a socialist society where people have children to enable the collecting of increased government subsidation.

the position you listed has nothing to do with the possibility of rearing a child in a less than acceptable enviornment and everything to do with fear and the selfishness to alter ones lifestyle.

Like government subsidation is enough to properly raise a child. Government subsidation isn't enough for families who have and love their children, let alone people who didn't want the responsibility in the first place. I don't see how that argument is BS. Like evilmax19 said, having an abortion is an act of responsibility, especially if neither parent is ready to have children. (But when is anyone really ready, right?) I don't want my tax money to go to unwilling and irresponsible parents anyways. There are better places to spend government money.

And in a homicide, the woman had no choice to say whether or not she wanted her baby (and herself) to live. And I know people are going to say in response, but the baby has no choice on whether or not to live in an abortion. I agree life begins at conception, but does a fetus have feelings? I don't think so (at least early on). If I was a three week old fetus, I don't think I'd have much of an opinion of whether or not I'm aborted or not, so I can't make a choice anyways.

Birthing a child does not correspond to accepting the responsibility of rearing a child. we have an adoption system to deal with that.
Loving and raising a child does not require an exceptional amount of money. And yes I am fairly certain that by utilizing all the availible forms of goverment subsidation one would be able to raise a child an an acceptable enviornment.

In my opinion if one is not ready to rear a child one should not be having sex, but thats another argument all together. I will restate myself. we have an adoption system to deal with unfit, unable, or unwilling parents.

[Quackzilla]

Your male, right?

Men should have no say in this matter.

do you have a child? have you carried a child?

do you know what it feels like to deal with having aborted a child?

youll probably lie and say yes to try and further your point, but until you have dealt with it you are as much an "outsider" to this as a male.

And s you have no idea what it feels like to be a male and deal with this you have no perspective to be telling anybody what their input should be

Fisrt of all, I am a guy.

Secondly, you can't impose your set of morals on other people. What you beleive is of no importance BECAUSE THE ISSUE DOES NOT INVOLE YOU![/b]

[paz9x]

Your male, right?

Men should have no say in this matter.

do you have a child? have you carried a child?

do you know what it feels like to deal with having aborted a child?

youll probably lie and say yes to try and further your point, but until you have dealt with it you are as much an "outsider" to this as a male.

And s you have no idea what it feels like to be a male and deal with this you have no perspective to be telling anybody what their input should be

Fisrt of all, I am a guy.

Secondly, you can't impose your set of morals on other people. What you beleive is of no importance BECAUSE THE ISSUE DOES NOT INVOLE YOU![/b]

Yes it does. If you feel this issue doesnt involve you then stop posting. Both sexes have relevant perspectives on this issue.

[chunk]

However, on the topic of abortion, the Bible could not be more clear.

woa woa woa......

First of all, the bible doesn't say anything at all about abortion. I believe very strongly in the bible and I believe that everyone should seriously consider what it says from an objective perspective. So please don't slander the bible by making it into political propaganda. Both Jesus and the bible are incredibly neutral on all political issues. Jesus specifically made many efforts to purposely avoid any kind of political issues in his day.


Man, you ever hear of feelings? If a woman is horribly humiliated and embarressed, you're saying that it's HER fault if she doesn't report the rape? See, this is why this truely should be a woman's issue. If men can't comprehend what it feels to be raped, they shouldn't have any political power behind a decision to ban abortion. "Her own choice to be negligent?", as if she thinks to her self "eh, i've got a busy day, i'll report it tommorow." Is that how you really think it works? How inhumanly cold is that?

Second of all, if a woman gets raped then it is absolutely her responsibility to report it. I understand there is a lot of feelings and humiliation involved, but she can't expect anyone to waive a magic wand and read her mind. If you expect someone else to help you then don't be suprised if they expect you to at least make an effort to help yourself. The very least thing you can do is tell someone. If she is not willing to at least make her problem known to those that have the power to help her then she can't expect to get help. Terrible feelings are unfortunate, but in an emergency situation (and this is an emergency situation) you have to suck it up and take action. Sorry, but this is just a fact of life.

[bignick]

You want to know what I find funny out this thread? I dont think it was meant to be an argument over abortion, but rather a picture of a funny sign.

[paz9x]

You want to know what I find funny out this thread? I dont think it was meant to be an argument over abortion, but rather a picture of a funny sign.

yea....but its a message board any chance to jump into a political/religious argument shall not be missed :wink:

[daroga]

I find it less humorus that it was a post about a sign and more humorus about the environment it's taking place in. I never thought I'd ever make a post using the words "orthodox Christianity" on the CheapAssGamer forum. :wink:

But as was mentioned, such is the nature of message boards. And I'm offically done with this. Enjoy the flame wars if it turns more to that everyone. I'll just keep watching the game ads. :roll:

[evilmax17]

Second of all, if a woman gets raped then it is absolutely her responsibility to report it. I understand there is a lot of feelings and humiliation involved, but she can't expect anyone to waive a magic wand and read her mind. If you expect someone else to help you then don't be suprised if they expect you to at least make an effort to help yourself. The very least thing you can do is tell someone. If she is not willing to at least make her problem known to those that have the power to help her then she can't expect to get help. Terrible feelings are unfortunate, but in an emergency situation (and this is an emergency situation) you have to suck it up and take action. Sorry, but this is just a fact of life.

I'd like to offer a true story. This happened to somebody that I met this year (my first year of college), a woman, who lived on a floor with half guys, half girls. All of these people are in the same major, and thus are in many of the same classes together. One of the guys who lives on the floor (an asshole guy, buy whatever) started talking to her, getting to know her etc. So they start hanging out, and one night they get physical. So it gets heavy, and he eventually asks her to have sex. She says no, but he persists. She eventually and timidly agrees, and he proceeds. A few seconds in, she begins to cry and begs him to stop, but he doesn't. Now clearly, this is rape, and I told her to report it, but she refused to. "I just want to forget about it and move on", as her words would put it. The guy still follows her around, "stalking" her (not as serious as that, but enough to be annoying). But no matter how much I stressed that she would, she said she didn't want to report it. Why? She lives in a dorm with people that she sees everyday, and one of them raped her. Had she reported it, he would've denied it, and then invariably she would've been shunned by her entire building (as ironically, less people side with the victim than the accused). So instead of making the rest of her year a living hell, she chose not to report it.

As you can see, "reporting it" isn't as easy and black-and-white as you people are making it out to be. I hope you got something from this.

[magilacudy]

You want to know what I find funny out this thread? I dont think it was meant to be an argument over abortion, but rather a picture of a funny sign.

I thought the thread was called 'Sign up at a Pro-Abortion Rally' at first. I was kind of shocked at first Cheapy would post that. Hi-larious.

As for the resulting debates going on (at least 3 different ones going on that I saw), I'm not going to touch it with a 10 foot pole. :shock:

[bignick]

You want to know what I find funny out this thread? I dont think it was meant to be an argument over abortion, but rather a picture of a funny sign.

I thought the thread was called 'Sign up at a Pro-Abortion Rally' at first. I was kind of shocked at first Cheapy would post that. Hi-larious.

As for the resulting debates going on (at least 3 different ones going on that I saw), I'm not going to touch it with a 10 foot pole. :shock:

And I wouldnt touch the lady holding that sign with a 10 foot pole.

[paz9x]

You want to know what I find funny out this thread? I dont think it was meant to be an argument over abortion, but rather a picture of a funny sign.

I thought the thread was called 'Sign up at a Pro-Abortion Rally' at first. I was kind of shocked at first Cheapy would post that. Hi-larious.

As for the resulting debates going on (at least 3 different ones going on that I saw), I'm not going to touch it with a 10 foot pole. :shock:

And I wouldnt touch the lady holding that sign with a 10 foot pole.

she doesnt want you in her bush anyhow :P

[chunk]

I'd like to offer a true story. This happened to somebody that I met this year (my first year of college), a woman, who lived on a floor with half guys, half girls. All of these people are in the same major, and thus are in many of the same classes together. One of the guys who lives on the floor (an asshole guy, buy whatever) started talking to her, getting to know her etc. So they start hanging out, and one night they get physical. So it gets heavy, and he eventually asks her to have sex. She says no, but he persists. She eventually and timidly agrees, and he proceeds. A few seconds in, she begins to cry and begs him to stop, but he doesn't. Now clearly, this is rape, and I told her to report it, but she refused to. "I just want to forget about it and move on", as her words would put it. The guy still follows her around, "stalking" her (not as serious as that, but enough to be annoying). But no matter how much I stressed that she would, she said she didn't want to report it. Why? She lives in a dorm with people that she sees everyday, and one of them raped her. Had she reported it, he would've denied it, and then invariably she would've been shunned by her entire building (as ironically, less people side with the victim than the accused). So instead of making the rest of her year a living hell, she chose not to report it.

As you can see, "reporting it" isn't as easy and black-and-white as you people are making it out to be. I hope you got something from this.

Seems pretty black and white to me. If she really felt like there was injustic done against her, then she would report it. If her reputation in the dorm is more important to her then justice then why should anyone else care about justice either? What I'm trying to say is that this affects her more than anyone else. If it doesn't take priority in her life then it certainly doesn't take priority in anyone elses life.

She isn't the only one with feelings and problems that need to be prioritized you know. What would you say if a cop was like, "well I could have investigated this reported rape, but I'm having some serious problems at home (humiliation ) and I just couldn't do it." Ridiculous, no?! If that is unacceptable from the cop then that is unacceptable from the victim also, because the cop can't do anything without information from the victim. The cop has a responsibility to his job and to society to make his feelings take a backseat. Likewise, this woman has a responsibility to herself and to society to make her feelings take a backseat.

Also, the situation isn't so clear. Clearly she was raped, but if she didn't want to have sex then she should have said no to begin with. You have to be smart, otherwise you might have a crime commited against you. Its like if I went into a bad neighborhood in brooklyn and started screaming racist remarks and antagonizing people that look like thugs. If I got shot then clearly I'm a victim of murder. However, at the same time I would be an idiot and partially responsible for my own death. I have a right to be an asshole and it doesn't justify the murder in any way. However, it is still partially my fault for being an asshole. Its the same situation here, she is the victim of a crime, but she was also stupid and partially responsible.

Maybe thats, also why she doesn't want to report it (because she realizes that she did something stupid). However, she should still report it as it is her responsibility to the rest of society. Just as if I was screaming racist remarks and get the crap beaten out of me. Maybe I realize my mistake and would feel like a hypocrite getting the other party prosecuted (even though my actions are legal while their's are illegal). However, I still need to report them to the cops because they are liable to go and beat someone else up.

[Quackzilla]

You are so srewed up in the head its sad.

[chunk]

You are so srewed up in the head its sad.

who?

[MaxBiaggi3]

And I wouldnt touch the lady holding that sign with a 10 foot pole.

Come on now Nick, you know you want her. She looks like she could handle a big and tall guy like you anyway. It's a match made in heaven.

[Han Solo]

"THOU SHALL NOT MURDER." Exodus 20:13

"From each man I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man. Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man. Genesis 9:5b-6

"For You created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Your works are wonderful, this I know. My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be." Psalms 139:13-16

"Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you." Jeremiah 1:5

"Did not He who made me in the womb make him, and the same One fashion us in the womb?" Job 31:15

"You have been my guide since I was first formed, my security at my mother's breast. To you I was committed at birth, from my mother's womb you are my God." Psalms 22: 10-11

"As you do not know what is the way of the wind, or how the bones grow in the womb of her who is with child, so you do not know the works of God who makes all things." Ecclesiastes 11:5

"Deliver those who are being taken away to death, and those who are staggering to slaughter, O hold them back. If you say, 'See, we did not know this', does He not consider it who weighs the hearts? And does He not know it who keeps your soul? And will He not render to man according to his work?" Proverbs 24:11-12

Major warning, the following link contains links to graphic images of aborted infants. You have been warned.

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages/index.htm

To the mods, If for some reason I have violated the terms of this board by posting that link, please edit my post for me or tell me and I will remove the link.

[danny-o]

I believe in abortion. but you ought to see what an actual abortion looks like. And the aftermath. It makes you think.

[E-Z-B]

"THOU SHALL NOT MURDER." Exodus 20:13

"From each man I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man. Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man. Genesis 9:5b-6

"For You created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Your works are wonderful, this I know. My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be." Psalms 139:13-16

"Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you." Jeremiah 1:5

"Did not He who made me in the womb make him, and the same One fashion us in the womb?" Job 31:15

"You have been my guide since I was first formed, my security at my mother's breast. To you I was committed at birth, from my mother's womb you are my God." Psalms 22: 10-11

"As you do not know what is the way of the wind, or how the bones grow in the womb of her who is with child, so you do not know the works of God who makes all things." Ecclesiastes 11:5

"Deliver those who are being taken away to death, and those who are staggering to slaughter, O hold them back. If you say, 'See, we did not know this', does He not consider it who weighs the hearts? And does He not know it who keeps your soul? And will He not render to man according to his work?" Proverbs 24:11-12

Major warning, the following link contains links to graphic images of aborted infants. You have been warned.

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages/index.htm

To the mods, If for some reason I have violated the terms of this board by posting that link, please edit my post for me or tell me and I will remove the link.

The bible also says "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

So you're saying that you're alright with slavery too?

In truth, abortion was NEVER mentioned in the bible. You're twisting the passages to support your beliefs.

[Quackzilla]

You are so srewed up in the head its sad.

who?

You show no sympathy towards your fellow humans.
Reminds me of "Village of the Damned". You see no reason for emotion or empathy.

[RedvsBlue]

From the title alone and the number of posts I knew this was going to be another "How could anyone vote for George Bush" thread.

[chunk]

The bible also says "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

So you're saying that you're alright with slavery too?

In truth, abortion was NEVER mentioned in the bible. You're twisting the passages to support your beliefs.

Hes not even twisting. He is just posting passages and acting like they are selfexplainatory, when in fact they are mostly unrelated to the issue of abortion.

Also, regarding slavery (and the bible in general), you have to understand the passages in context. Slavery during those times was not the same as the brutal and reprehensible slavery of the 1800s. Just because it has the same name does not mean that it is the same thing. Perhaps it is better to describe it as a servant since it is quite different from the kind of slaves that were kidnapped from africa.

There are many rules and regulations in the old testament regarding the responsibility of a servant owner. In truth, most of the servants of the Israelites had a much better quality of life than many "free" people today. For this reason many people chose to become servants (both temporarily and permanently).

Kidnapping and slavery are two different things. The kind of slavery talked about in the bible is when someone cannot support himself and offers himself as a slave to someone else in exchange for being taken care of. A hired man has to fend for himself and has many responsibilities to worry about, a slave has his owner to fend for him and to take care of any responsibilities. Our culture does not recognize these positive aspects of being a slave, but the ancient Israelite culture did.

The concept of owning another person is not inherently wrong. It is culturally relative and dependent on societal structure. The concept of mistreating and brutalizing other people is what is wrong.

[chunk]

You show no sympathy towards your fellow humans.
Reminds me of "Village of the Damned". You see no reason for emotion or empathy.

Thats not true. However, emotion and empathy is not going to stop a rapist. My primary concern is to stop rapists. If emotion and empathy has to be sacrificed in order to do that then so be it. Anyone that is willing to allow rape to happen in the name of "understanding" or "empathy" is the true monster.

If you can stop it from happening then you won't have to sympathize. I have sympathy, but to me it is more important to help people in a realistic and tangible way. If you were in need would you rather have someone physically help you or say "ohhh, I understand how you feel"?

[RedvsBlue]

[quote=E-Z-B]

The concept of owning another person is not inherently wrong. It is culturally relative and dependent on societal structure. The concept of mistreating and brutalizing other people is what is wrong.

I suppose that next your going to say that a woman becomes a man's property as soon as they get married. The bible says that's ok too...

[Han Solo]

"So you're saying that you're alright with slavery too?"

I am not alright with slavery. I believe that slavery is wrong. I also believe that killing unborn children is wrong.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html
http://www.joshclaybourn.com/blog/archives/001448.html

[E-Z-B]

The bible also says "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

So you're saying that you're alright with slavery too?

In truth, abortion was NEVER mentioned in the bible. You're twisting the passages to support your beliefs.

Hes not even twisting. He is just posting passages and acting like they are selfexplainatory, when in fact they are mostly unrelated to the issue of abortion.

Also, regarding slavery (and the bible in general), you have to understand the passages in context. Slavery during those times was not the same as the brutal and reprehensible slavery of the 1800s. Just because it has the same name does not mean that it is the same thing. Perhaps it is better to describe it as a servant since it is quite different from the kind of slaves that were kidnapped from africa.

There are many rules and regulations in the old testament regarding the responsibility of a servant owner. In truth, most of the servants of the Israelites had a much better quality of life than many "free" people today. For this reason many people chose to become servants (both temporarily and permanently).

Kidnapping and slavery are two different things. The kind of slavery talked about in the bible is when someone cannot support himself and offers himself as a slave to someone else in exchange for being taken care of. A hired man has to fend for himself and has many responsibilities to worry about, a slave has his owner to fend for him and to take care of any responsibilities. Our culture does not recognize these positive aspects of being a slave, but the ancient Israelite culture did.

The concept of owning another person is not inherently wrong. It is culturally relative and dependent on societal structure. The concept of mistreating and brutalizing other people is what is wrong.

Yes, I was just illustrating one example where the bible seems confusing to us for modern-day issues.

[chunk]

I suppose that next your going to say that a woman becomes a man's property as soon as they get married. The bible says that's ok too...

Why don't Americans have respect for any cultural values other than their own? There are cultures today which practice the concept of the wife being the "property" of the man (at least in a strict sense). There are also many women who are very happy with this and wouldn't have it any other way.

Let me ask you this. If a man and a women are happily married, the man considers his wife property, and the women considers herself property of her husband, then who the hell are you to tell them that their relationship is "morally wrong"?

[PsyClerk]

Interesting discussion concerning eugenics and the role abortion might play in it on NPR this morning. Anyone else catch it?

Anyways...stolen from snopes.com...


I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

[chunk]

Yes, I was just illustrating one example where the bible seems confusing to us for modern-day issues.

Finally, somebody with some sense. :D

[E-Z-B]

I believe that slavery is wrong. I also believe that killing unborn children is wrong.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html
http://www.joshclaybourn.com/blog/archives/001448.html

But the bible says that slavery is ok. The bible says "The eternal God [is thy] refuge, and underneath [are] the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy [them]." So we are to destroy our enemies? But then Christ says to love your enemy. The jews said that Christ wouldn't come until Elijah returned. Christ said that he had returned, referring to John the Baptist. I interpret that as reincarnation. But that's my interpretation, and I don't force my interpretation of the bible as proof of reincarnation to others.

[Lynsanity]

The feeling one has of something growing inside them, moving with them, becoming an independent lifeform from within: No, I can not experience that, at this time. And honestly, with the advances being made in science, I am sure that if some person just really wanted to be the nutritional transport for a parasitic creature, it could be done. Not to me, but that is beside the point.

My problem stems from our stance on women, children, abortion, and parental rights.

What gives the female the right to decide the future of all parties involved. Her body? Sure, but her decision effects my life, as well as the life of OUR child.

If she decides to keep the baby, and ditch me, I pay child support, and with the way the judicial system is, I may not ever get to see my child anyway.

If I want the baby, and she doesn't. She gets rid of it. I have no say in the matter. What is wrong with that?

What part of having a child within you gives you more of a right to that child? What's more? Why is it that we as a society has a double standard as to what is fitting for children when it comes to men and women?

I was raised by a single mother. My dad didnt come around much, and now that I am older, I fully understand why. Not that my mom was no good, it is just that as things stand with the judicial system, men are treated as criminals who's only tie to a child is 50% DNA stake and a finanical responsibility.

In order to establish rights to a child, a man has to seek an attorney, petition the court, and prove to the court that he deserves to be a father to said child.

The abortion issue is just a part of the problem. Our entire legal system is broken, and we as individuals have no way to fix it. Democracy is nice and pretty to look at.

The reality of it all is that most people are really too stupid to have a say in how they are governed and what laws are to be written.

[Lynsanity]

I guess I have lived a bad life, but I have experienced a situation similar to that the one you speak.

I was with a girl. Not a good girl, a really bad girl that got with many ppl. At the time, I thought she was really great. Thing is, she liked me, and her friend liked me. So when her friend told me that was a not really a good person, I took that as jealousy and moved on.

I knew this girl liked several ppl, but being very naive, I felt that if she got to know me, she would like me for me, and all that idiotic stuff.

Long story short we had sex. She said she loved me, but she also loved this other guy, and wanted me to lie to him, and say nothing ever happened. I didn't and she acted like I raped her.

I called her and asked her about it, and she claimed that everyone was lying and she never said it. Ok, I loved this girl, so I believed her.

We ended up having sex again. Same thing happened. More than that, I found out that I was stalking her, which was shocking to me because I hardly ever called her, and only saw her occasionally.

She ended up pregnant, no idea who the father was. Blamed me because she could act like she was raped by me, to takethe heat off of her for cheating on her finace who, ironically, was in prison for rape. And no, I didn't know the whole story with them either.

Anyway, she then told her mother that she didnt go to the police because she didnt know my last name, and that I moved out of state.

She told her fiance's mom that I was in jail for it, and that I had been for a while because I was some sort of serial rapist.

Moral of the story boys and girls: People Lie.

If your friend is not reporting him, there is probably a reason. In my case, it was because I was the victim of a compulsive liar. What's more, I may not be out of the woods yet, because I still don't know what is up with her, and her "Preganacy."

I do know this. All it takes is for a female to yell rape to the police, and any male, guilty or not, goes straight to jail.

Sure, they may not have evidence on you, but it only takes a couple crocodile tears and a willing jury to send you up the creek. Sounds crazy? It should, but there are many innocent ppl in prison.

Thing is, this is not a new occurance. Think Salem Witch trials. More than that, think STEVE AUSTIN.

"DTA, Don't Trust Anybody!"

Unfortunately for me, I did, and now I may burn for it.

[jdpimp]

^^^ that's either a lot of honesty for a second post, or he's just a liar.

[Quackzilla]

I guess I have lived a bad life, but I have experienced a situation similar to that the one you speak.

I was with a girl. Not a good girl, a really bad girl that got with many ppl. At the time, I thought she was really great. Thing is, she liked me, and her friend liked me. So when her friend told me that was a not really a good person, I took that as jealousy and moved on.

I knew this girl liked several ppl, but being very naive, I felt that if she got to know me, she would like me for me, and all that idiotic stuff.

Long story short we had sex. She said she loved me, but she also loved this other guy, and wanted me to lie to him, and say nothing ever happened. I didn't and she acted like I raped her.

I called her and asked her about it, and she claimed that everyone was lying and she never said it. Ok, I loved this girl, so I believed her.

We ended up having sex again. Same thing happened. More than that, I found out that I was stalking her, which was shocking to me because I hardly ever called her, and only saw her occasionally.

She ended up pregnant, no idea who the father was. Blamed me because she could act like she was raped by me, to takethe heat off of her for cheating on her finace who, ironically, was in prison for rape. And no, I didn't know the whole story with them either.

Anyway, she then told her mother that she didnt go to the police because she didnt know my last name, and that I moved out of state.

She told her fiance's mom that I was in jail for it, and that I had been for a while because I was some sort of serial rapist.

Moral of the story boys and girls: People Lie.

If your friend is not reporting him, there is probably a reason. In my case, it was because I was the victim of a compulsive liar. What's more, I may not be out of the woods yet, because I still don't know what is up with her, and her "Preganacy."

I do know this. All it takes is for a female to yell rape to the police, and any male, guilty or not, goes straight to jail.

Sure, they may not have evidence on you, but it only takes a couple crocodile tears and a willing jury to send you up the creek. Sounds crazy? It should, but there are many innocent ppl in prison.

Thing is, this is not a new occurance. Think Salem Witch trials. More than that, think STEVE AUSTIN.

"DTA, Don't Trust Anybody!"

Unfortunately for me, I did, and now I may burn for it.

Did you go to court yet?
If so you have a horrible lawyer.

You can get a court ordered DNA test, and if she refuses you can use that to convince the jury she was lying, sending her to jail instead.

[PsyClerk]

No offense,but...

-Your story sounds like Jerry Springer "Too Hot For TV"

-You quoted a professional wrestler (one who beats his women, I should add)

So where's the trailer park fit in all of this?

[Lynsanity]

The thing never went to court. It was never a police issue, but this girl is messed up in the head. If she is pregnant, which, I really don't know, then I feel it may all come to a head after she has the baby.

I don't know. I am just not dealing with her any more. It was way too stressful.

Jerry Springer, yeh, I can see it. Her fiance's mom lives in a trailerpark.

Want more: Found out that she has had RELATIONS with atleast 2 of his brothers. Man, I didn't know. The girl was decently cute. Just goes to show you never know what a person is really like.

Steve Williams needs to get himself in control. Steve Austin, the character, is who I am quoting.

[PsyClerk]

Her fiance's mom lives in a trailerpark.

Ha, I knew it.

Though I'm surprised that's the closest connection.

[Lynsanity]

Hey, smart, educated ppl make mistakes too.

[Mr. Anderson]

Too many deep thoughts in this thread! Make it stop!

[chunk]

Hey, smart, educated ppl make mistakes too.

Do smart educated people make the same mistake twice? :)

[evilmax17]

Hey, smart, educated ppl make mistakes too.

Do smart educated people make the same mistake twice? :)

Lol we'll see in November!!!

[paz9x]

Hey, smart, educated ppl make mistakes too.

Do smart educated people make the same mistake twice? :)

Lol we'll see in November!!!

that was good

[RedvsBlue]

I suppose that next your going to say that a woman becomes a man's property as soon as they get married. The bible says that's ok too...

Why don't Americans have respect for any cultural values other than their own? There are cultures today which practice the concept of the wife being the "property" of the man (at least in a strict sense). There are also many women who are very happy with this and wouldn't have it any other way.

Let me ask you this. If a man and a women are happily married, the man considers his wife property, and the women considers herself property of her husband, then who the hell are you to tell them that their relationship is "morally wrong"?

Good point and since cannibalism is socially accepted in other cultures I'm gonna go out and eat my neighbor!

Just because something is socially acceptable in certain cultures that doesn't mean its right. There are certain things that are BASIC human rights.

[chunk]

Good point and since cannibalism is socially accepted in other cultures I'm gonna go out and eat my neighbor!

Just because something is socially acceptable in certain cultures that doesn't mean its right. There are certain things that are BASIC human rights.

Doesn't an individual have a right to be the property of another individual if they so choose? What ever happened to the basic human right of being free to do what you want as long as it doesn't harm anyone else?

Your so quick to enforce your concept of basic human rights on other individuals. Even at the expense of their, erm, rights. :roll:

[Indiana]

I guess I have lived a bad life, but I have experienced a situation similar to that the one you speak.

I was with a girl. Not a good girl, a really bad girl that got with many ppl. At the time, I thought she was really great. Thing is, she liked me, and her friend liked me. So when her friend told me that was a not really a good person, I took that as jealousy and moved on.

I knew this girl liked several ppl, but being very naive, I felt that if she got to know me, she would like me for me, and all that idiotic stuff.

Long story short we had sex. She said she loved me, but she also loved this other guy, and wanted me to lie to him, and say nothing ever happened. I didn't and she acted like I raped her.

I called her and asked her about it, and she claimed that everyone was lying and she never said it. Ok, I loved this girl, so I believed her.

We ended up having sex again. Same thing happened. More than that, I found out that I was stalking her, which was shocking to me because I hardly ever called her, and only saw her occasionally.

She ended up pregnant, no idea who the father was. Blamed me because she could act like she was raped by me, to takethe heat off of her for cheating on her finace who, ironically, was in prison for rape. And no, I didn't know the whole story with them either.

Anyway, she then told her mother that she didnt go to the police because she didnt know my last name, and that I moved out of state.

She told her fiance's mom that I was in jail for it, and that I had been for a while because I was some sort of serial rapist.

Moral of the story boys and girls: People Lie.

If your friend is not reporting him, there is probably a reason. In my case, it was because I was the victim of a compulsive liar. What's more, I may not be out of the woods yet, because I still don't know what is up with her, and her "Preganacy."

I do know this. All it takes is for a female to yell rape to the police, and any male, guilty or not, goes straight to jail.

Sure, they may not have evidence on you, but it only takes a couple crocodile tears and a willing jury to send you up the creek. Sounds crazy? It should, but there are many innocent ppl in prison.

Thing is, this is not a new occurance. Think Salem Witch trials. More than that, think STEVE AUSTIN.

"DTA, Don't Trust Anybody!"

Unfortunately for me, I did, and now I may burn for it.

Moral of the story make sure you use a hidden video camera for your sex acts so that you have evidence to protect yourself! :D

[RedvsBlue]

Good point and since cannibalism is socially accepted in other cultures I'm gonna go out and eat my neighbor!

Just because something is socially acceptable in certain cultures that doesn't mean its right. There are certain things that are BASIC human rights.

Doesn't an individual have a right to be the property of another individual if they so choose? What ever happened to the basic human right of being free to do what you want as long as it doesn't harm anyone else?

Your so quick to enforce your concept of basic human rights on other individuals. Even at the expense of their, erm, rights. :roll:

That's the problem though. Sure there are some women in certain societies that don't mind being property of someone else but some are simply forced into it. Look at what Afghanistan was like, women could not even go anywhere outdoors without their husbands. Are you telling me that they ALL actually wanted to be led around everywhere they went like they were children again? Fact of the matter is that if even one woman in a society doesn't want to be the property of your husband then that makes it wrong.