Awww here it goes... Sex minigame found in GTA:SA, politicians call for AO rating

[Dead of Knight]

http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=5271

**Please note that the above link contains pics of the aforementioned sex minigame and should not be viewed by anyone offended by seeing them.**

"Last month some ingenious modder-types released a modification to the PC version of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas that unlocked some previously unplayable mini-games that were apparently intended to play during the date sequences in the game. The mini-game, if you missed it in the headline, is of course sexual in nature and more to the point is accompanied by some rather graphic animations.

As a result, Assembly Speaker pro Tem Leland Yee (D-San Francisco/Daly City) has released this statement, blasting the Entertainment Software Rating Board.

"Once again, ESRB has failed our parents. This particular game has been known to include extremely heinous acts of violence, and now it has been uncovered that the game also includes explicit sexual scenes that are inappropriate for our children. I have urged the ESRB on numerous occasions to rate this game AO based on its blatantly graphic nature."

"Whether it is JFK: Reloaded, Manhunt, 25 to Life, or now Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, the video game industry continues to demonstrate a sense of arrogance towards public opinion and a lack of responsibility in protecting our children."

For all intents and purposes it does appear that Rockstar is responsible for creating the mini-games and leaving them on the game disks. Yes, disks, as apparently these mini-games are unlockable on all versions of the game, PlayStation2 and Xbox included, if you possess the necessary hardware to download the modified save games to your console. So far neither Rockstar or the ESRB has responded to Leland Yee's press release, but it will definitely be interesting to see what they say, as Mr Yee has a point; GTA: SA does contain graphic depictions of sex, even if you do have to do some extra work to unlock them, and could reasonably be given an Adult Only rating because of it.

For those wondering why a developer wouldn't just settle for AO rating, it's generally considered the marketing kiss-of-death as most retailers (notably Wal-Mart, who sells more video games than any other retail chain) refuses to carry AO titles. Of course, GTA:SA for the PS2 was already the best selling title of 2004, with more than five million copies sold as of last December.

"Clearly the ESRB has a conflict of interest in rating these games," said Speaker pro Tem Yee. "Plain and simple, parents cannot trust the ESRB to rate games appropriately or the industry to look out for our children's best interests. The ESRB and the video game industry cannot police themselves and this is yet another example of why we need legislation to limit these types of games to children."

Leland Yee's Assembly Bill 450 is an example of such legislation. Specifically, the legislation would prohibit the sale and rental of violent video games that depict serious injury to human beings in a manner that is especially heinous, atrocious, or cruel, to persons who are 16 years of age or younger. Under Yee's proposal those who violate the act may be liable in an amount of up $1,000 for each violation. In addition, such described video games would have to be labeled, "This game may not be sold to anyone under 17 years of age."

Note that these are some of the less graphic and more clothed activities you're likely to see with the mod enabled. For those really curious as to full extent of the mod's capabilities, there are more graphic pictures and even a video available elsewhere on the internet. For reference, the modification is known as the "Hot Coffee" mod."

[Scorch]

I posted about the sex minigame in the PC forum weeks ago.. kinda stupid to call for an AO rating on a game that's sold millions of copies

[Quackzilla]

GTA:SA should have an AO rating anyway, I don't see what the fuss is about.

Once you grow up you understand why. And by grow up, I mean mature, not "ooh look you can run around and shoot anybody you want, cool!"

[Dead of Knight]

I posted about the sex minigame in the PC forum weeks ago.. kinda stupid to call for an AO rating on a game that's sold millions of copies

Yeah, I heard the sex minigame was old news, but I guess the politics stuff is new.

[evilmax17]

GTA:SA should have an AO rating anyway, I don't see what the fuss is about.

Once you grow up you understand why. And by grow up, I mean mature, not "ooh look you can run around and shoot anybody you want, cool!"
More of a reply to what you said in the other thread about this:

If you're old enough to drive, you should be old enough to buy whatever you want in terms of movies and videogames. Take that however you want it (raise the driving age, or lower/keep the game age). I think 17 is a good idea for driving/games/movies.

Also, a game shouldn't be rated on something that you have to use a hexeditor to access. If you're smart enough to figure out how to get it, you should be able to handle it emotionally.

[eldad9]

Noooo!

Now teenagers are going to find out about sex!

[howlinmad]

"Once again, ESRB has failed our parents"
Once again our parents look to blame anyone but themselves.

So let me get this straight....
1) killing innocent bystanders. OK
2) gang violence. OK
3) language that even I deem alot. OK
4) fucking? WHAT DID YOU SAY?!?! This is a destructive game.


Get a life people.

[cag1000]

hey what happened to the mystery of the dead girl thread

[alongx]

I don't see the real difference between the M and the AO rating. M is suitable for only players 17 years or older, AO is suitable for players 18 years or older. According to esrb.org, the only real difference is graphic sexual content, which should automatically lead to an AO rating. But I don't see how a 1 year gap makes all the difference between someone mature enough to handle graphic sex or not.

I don't know why Rockstar left the source in the program for these sex minigames. I suspect that they cut it to avoid the AO rating, kind of like the movie Clerks was cut down to avoid the NC-17 rating, but why leave the code in the program? I guess it was just easier that way and, for consoles at least, it is pretty difficult to unlock these games.

[Cornfedwb]

More of a reply to what you said in the other thread about this:

If you're old enough to drive, you should be old enough to buy whatever you want in terms of movies and videogames. Take that however you want it (raise the driving age, or lower/keep the game age). I think 17 is a good idea for driving/games/movies.

Also, a game shouldn't be rated on something that you have to use a hexeditor to access. If you're smart enough to figure out how to get it, you should be able to handle it emotionally.


If you're old enough to drive.. you're old enough to view any amount of smut and violence? So if you're old enough to drive, you're old enough to drink right? There is a reason there are different age limits for different activities.. simply because you hit one milestone does not immediately qualify you for all of the following.

And on a quick side note, a military ID should allow you to drink at 18.

[Quackzilla]

I believe gang violence should be an automatic AO rating, because gang violence is a major problem in the country, and we kinda really need to teach kids that it is bad.

A game about gang violonce should not be sold to kids.


But do the politicians care about that? Of course not, they go after sex.

Sex is not harming society, gang violence is.
Why can't our lazy asses pompous congress help the people instead of pandering to their base? Maybe the people of the United States of America need to raise money to match special interest "funds" (a.k.a. bribes), THEN maybe congress will serve Americans.

[ryanbph]

It should have been AO to begin with...with or without the mod sex scene

[SpottedNigel]

I wont vouch for the PC version, but dont you actually have to do some illegal activities to even get this to work on a ps2/xbox?

[b0bx13]

Ohs noes!! Not teh sechs!!!

Good God...somehow, I don't think some 12 year old is going to be able to mod his console, then hack the game's code to unlock it. And if he has that kind of know-how, surely he can type "porn" into Google.

[jmcc]

I believe gang violence should be an automatic AO rating, because gang violence is a major problem in the country, and we kinda really need to teach kids that it is bad.

A game about gang violonce should not be sold to kids.


But do the politicians care about that? Of course not, they go after sex.

Sex is not harming society, gang violence is.
Why can't our lazy asses pompous congress help the people instead of pandering to their base? Maybe the people of the United States of America need to raise money to match special interest "funds" (a.k.a. bribes), THEN maybe congress will serve Americans.

What? Gang violence a major problem? Do you have numbers to justify that statement? It's bad in certain urban centers, but it's hardly a country-wide problem.

[Quackzilla]

Have you been in any public schools lately?

Ask any kid anywhere about gangs in their school.

Many kids believe gangs are cool (a minority that has the potential to oppress the majority).

[Noodle Pirate!]

Those pics look like ps1 graphics :P

[opportunity777]

I hope this is the next step in putting more sex and naked girls in videogames. I have been writing letters for years to get more of that, and I'm glad someone is finally answering the bell :-P

[jmcc]

Have you been in any public schools lately?

Ask any kid anywhere about gangs in their school.

Many kids believe gangs are cool (a minority that has the potential to oppress the majority).

How many people were killed or wounded in gang violence last year? That's what I want to know. Becaus firearm related homicide isn't even in the top 10 killers of Americans, let alone gang related ones.

[Quackzilla]

How many people were killed or wounded in gang violence last year? That's what I want to know. Becaus firearm related homicide isn't even in the top 10 killers of Americans, let alone gang related ones.
Just because it doesn't kill as many people as PAD, cancer, or cardiovascular disease doesn't mean it should be ignored,

[Apossum]

What about the Incredibles? It causes white trash to stab babies in the stomach.

and WTF, these politicians are just pissed cause they aren't getting any without paying for it first.

[greydemise]

quackzilla is right, gang violence is huge, its not mentioned as much, but its really up there, and its more thna just murders and random beatings...if u think about it in th elong run, property value shoots down, bad ppl come into the neighborhood..BAM b4 u kno it..neighborhoods turned to trash, thats wat happened with me, all but 2 of our neighbors moved out, and we have a hooker den right next door (im actually serious..and yes, theyr really ugly ), just cus a little poorly drawn sex game is in this title, dusnt mean its the end of world..damn i feel sry for those kids...i mean, if theyr parents are so uptight about virtual sex, imagine when they get to THE TALK

[SneakyPenguin]

Speaking of ratings and everything, what's up with BB's new policy? They refuse to sell M-rated games to anyone under 18, even though the game ITSELF clearly says 17 is the minimum age.

[JimmieMac]

Video (NFSW):

http://www.yonkis.com/media/hotcoffe_gta_sa.wmv

[Quackzilla]

Label that NSFW, that site is covered in porn ads.

[greydemise]

if only i werent at front desk right now i wud soo click...

[mykevermin]

Rockstar should have been wise enought to eliminate that portion of the game before it went to press (that is, if they never intended for it to be found). Is it bad? Yeah, I'd say so.

But I'd also agree with those who think that, relative to the other content of the game, it's nothing to put the title "over the top." If you or your family thinks that GTA:SA was alright before, but this is "too much," you're a bag of fucking hammers.

Make it AO, if only to stimulate the ESRB to rate titles better, indicate to parents and retailers that this is *NOT* a game for children, and to gain some respect for an AO rating (which, if it's been given out at all, is probably reserved strictly for porn titles).

[cag1000]

hey what happened to the mystery of the dead girl thread

[Quackzilla]

hey what happened to the mystery of the dead girl thread
Haven't you posted this enough times? People have read this post in many thread, but they didn't respond because NOBODY fuckING CARES!

[Apossum]

Haven't you posted this enough times? People have read this post in many thread, but they didn't respond because NOBODY fuckING CARES!

okay, now i have to ask...why are you such a dick?

[Quackzilla]

okay, now i have to ask...why are you such a dick?
cag1000 is spamming that post all accross the message boards, and quite frankly it is rather annoying.

[Apossum]

cag1000 is spamming that post all accross the message boards, and quite frankly it is rather annoying.

okay, if it has nothing to do with anything, then just ask him to stop, try not to let it sand yer vag

[LinkinPrime]

Ok so "M" games are 17+, isnt "AO" 18 and up?

GTA Is already meant for an adult audience so dont get the big deal here, goverment should just shut up and take care of "REAL" issues going on.

EDIT: Why is sex/nudity treated as something worse then violence and gore? That is f*cked up.

[cag1000]

wow simple question about that thread...
of course no one cares...
but i'm bored and wanted to read everyone flaming the OG poster
I had hoped the thread turned into a funny flame war...
and could not find it and thought it may have been closed for excessive craziness

[Duo_Maxwell]

Why is the ESRB being heaped on for the blame? If they were given the same copies as retail and rated them as such they did their job. I doubt they are supposed to pick weeks hacking the game code to find things like this. Hold Rockstar accountable not the ESRB or the entire game industry. The problem isn't the ESRB or the ratings system, it's how that system is enforced in retail. Have the ESRB or another agency charge fines for selling these games to minors, that and some actual parenting is all we really need. This crap about the ESRB "failing parents" pisses me off, the game is clearly marked M for mature to begin with which means it's not suitable for children under 17, sexual dipiction withstanding. I'm sure lots of the whining comes from parents who actually bought the game for their children and were to stupid to simply look at the box for a full 5 seconds.

[Vegan]

"This particular game has been known to include extremely heinous acts of violence, and now it has been uncovered that the game also includes explicit sexual scenes that are inappropriate for our children."

Hey, I agree completely! So, what crazy parent is buying this game for their kid?

[Backlash]

EDIT: Why is sex/nudity treated as something worse then violence and gore? That is f*cked up.

Because the GOP is in control of the white house and congress.

Killing = necessary evil.

Sex = SIN! NO! BAD! DIRTY!

[Dead of Knight]

Why is the ESRB being heaped on for the blame? If they were given the same copies as retail and rated them as such they did their job. I doubt they are supposed to pick weeks hacking the game code to find things like this. Hold Rockstar accountable not the ESRB or the entire game industry. The problem isn't the ESRB or the ratings system, it's how that system is enforced in retail. Have the ESRB or another agency charge fines for selling these games to minors, that and some actual parenting is all we really need. This crap about the ESRB "failing parents" pisses me off, the game is clearly marked M for mature to begin with which means it's not suitable for children under 17, sexual dipiction withstanding. I'm sure lots of the whining comes from parents who actually bought the game for their children and were to stupid to simply look at the box for a full 5 seconds.

Agree'd. ESRB doesn't have shit to do with this for once. They just view tapes the publishers send them that have a game's most explicit content on them, and that's pretty much as far as they go for most games. They certainly don't hack games. I think that this shit easily could have gone onto a tape of the most explicit game content, but Rockstar smugly kept it off because you can't find it normally. I hope they burn in hell for their cockiness.

EDIT: I watched the video and it's fucking obscene. Also, I never played any GTA games, and I'm astonished that the guy sounds exactly like 50 Cent.

[Pylis]

One time I played a hacked copy of Super Mario Bros. 3 where everybody was naked. The politicians should have come out and banned those perverted Italian plumbers.

[Vegan]

I agree that this really should not be portrayed as something that's accessible in the game.

1) A minor shouldn't even be playing the game, hacked or not.
and
2) It requires performing an illegal activity to access this.

There should be NO scenario in which parental complaints are valid. If your kid found this and you're upset, it's your fault for getting the kid an age-inappropriate game and the kid's fault for altering copywritten code.

[Dead of Knight]

I agree that this really should not be portrayed as something that's accessible in the game.

1) A minor shouldn't even be playing the game, hacked or not.
and
2) It requires performing an illegal activity to access this.

There should be NO scenario in which parental complaints are valid. If your kid found this and you're upset, it's your fault for getting the kid an age-inappropriate game and the kid's fault for altering copywritten code.

I agree with that, but it's still a disgrace that Rockstar kept this in the game without informing the ESRB.

[mykevermin]

I think the ESRB is somewhat at fault, and the representative does have a point. I understand that GTA would sell well into the millions as an AO-rated title, but many stores would not carry it (to their financial detriment) regardless.

If San Andreas does not qualify as an AO title, what in the world does? I'm referring to the normall accessible aspects of the game, not the sex minigame. That's paltry compared to what the rest of the game contains and implies.

There is a vested financial interest for a game to be rated M or less, and I'm sure that the ESRB is aware of that pressure. In short, if ESRB said SA was "AO," Rockstar would have to edit the game to get it released; would you, as a gamer, be happy with that? Would you blame Rockstar for making a gratuitously hyperviolent and hypersexual title? Or, would you blame the ESRB for being censors and ruining the "purity" of the gaming experience?

The ESRB knows who butters its bread. They simply repay in kind. With that in mind, Yee (?) has a excellent argument. It's only a shame that it's based off of a fucking scene in the game, and not *everything else* in the title.

[Mr. Anderson]

Speaking of ratings and everything, what's up with BB's new policy? They refuse to sell M-rated games to anyone under 18, even though the game ITSELF clearly says 17 is the minimum age.

I've bought Red Dead Revolver and Psi-Ops without a problem from BB, and I don't even look 17, much less 18 or older.

[SneakyPenguin]

I've bought Red Dead Revolver and Psi-Ops without a problem from BB, and I don't even look 17, much less 18 or older.

It's a brand new policy, within the lsat 2 weeks or so, as I never used to have a problem either (though I look about 19 at elast). They even carded my dad, who looks at least 30. They say it's new policy the HAVE to card everyone.

[gamereviewgod]

Who remembers the South Park pilot on the Tiger Woods '99 PS One disc? In that case, I completely understand if they would make a big issue. It was of course rated E, and that South Park segment was well beyond what any kid should be watching. This is not a big deal, but leave it up to the government to make it seem like Satan has arrived.

[Dead of Knight]

Who remembers the South Park pilot on the Tiger Woods '99 PS One disc? In that case, I completely understand if they would make a big issue. It was of course rated E, and that South Park segment was well beyond what any kid should be watching. This is not a big deal, but leave it up to the government to make it seem like Satan has arrived.

I remember that lol. Was it easy to find on the disc? I can't remember.

[Mr. Anderson]

I remember that lol. Was it easy to find on the disc? I can't remember.

You had to put the PS1 disc into a computer and search around the directory. Not easy.

[Dead of Knight]

You had to put the PS1 disc into a computer and search around the directory. Not easy.

I'm betting that only blew over because it was Tiger Woods. GTA is super-controversial to begin with. This won't be something that will be easily resolved.

[Scorch]

ESRB investigating San Andreas sex minigames
[UPDATE] Ratings board embarks on investigation of claims the Rockstar best-seller had explicit content hidden in code--claims the publisher denies.

Today, one of the most popular recent game industry rumors showed signs of turning into a very real scandal.

Following a verbal lashing this week from California assemblyman Leland Yee (D-San Francisco), the Entertainment Software Ratings Board (ESRB) today said it was launching an investigation into Rockstar Games' best-seller Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas to determine whether the game contained sexually explicit minigames hidden in its code.

ESRB president Patricia Vance said her organization has "opened an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the 'Hot Coffee' modification." "Hot Coffee" refers to the mod that, when installed on a PC with San Andreas on it, unlocks several minigames that prompt players to have the game's hero engage in X-rated acts.

The ESRB's investigation will examine whether the mod unlocks preexisting code, as appears to be the case, or is actually a purely third-party creation. Its ultimate purpose will be to determine if Take-Two violated ESRB regulations requiring "full disclosure of pertinent content."

"The integrity of the ESRB rating system is founded on the trust of consumers who increasingly depend on it to provide complete and accurate information about what's in a game. If after a thorough and objective investigation of all the relevant facts surrounding this modification, we determine a violation of our rules has occurred, we will take appropriate action," Vance said in a statement released this morning.

Vance also had some choice words for assemblyman Yee, who, in the same statement accusing the board of "failing to appropriately rate" Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, also accused it of a "conflict of interest in rating games."

Yee implies the nonprofit ratings board, which was established in 1994 by the Entertainment Software Association (ESA), shies away from AO ratings, regardless of the content. Most major retailers refuse to sell AO-rated games, thereby denying such titles broad distribution.

"Assemblyman Yee has been on a crusade for years to undermine the integrity of the ESRB, and in so doing, generate support for his legislative agenda. His latest attempt to win political points is to claim, without any legitimate basis, that a game rated for ages 17 and older, with explicit content descriptors prominently displayed on every box, has been inappropriately rated," Vance said.

Stating the agenda of the board was above reproach and that contrary to Yee's comments that the ESRB has "failed our parents" with San Andreas' M rating, Vance claimed "research shows parents overwhelmingly find ESRB ratings to be effective."

"We will do whatever it takes to maintain their confidence in them and the integrity of the system," Vance concluded.

[UPDATE] Rockstar alerted the press late in the day that is aware of the investigation by the ESRB. "We can confirm the ESRB is conducting an investigation and that we will be complying fully with their enquiries," the statement read. "We thoroughly support the work of the esrb, and believe that it has an exemplary record of rating games and promoting understanding of video game content. We also feel confident that the investigation will uphold the original rating of the game, as the work of the mod community is beyond the scope of either publishers or the ESRB."

This afternoon, when asked if the "Hot Coffee" code was included in game discs manufactured by Rockstar or its agents, the company commented more fully then it had previously. A spokesperson told GameSpot News it was not.

By Curt Feldman -- GameSpot
POSTED: 07/08/05 10:32 AM PST

Man, the modder that discovered that doesn't realize how much shit he got them into..

[Trakan]

I've bought Red Dead Revolver and Psi-Ops without a problem from BB, and I don't even look 17, much less 18 or older.

You only have to be 17 to buy M-rated games, IIRC.

[Mr. Anderson]

You only have to be 17 to buy M-rated games, IIRC.

I'm 15. ;)

[Duo_Maxwell]

I think the ESRB is somewhat at fault, and the representative does have a point. I understand that GTA would sell well into the millions as an AO-rated title, but many stores would not carry it (to their financial detriment) regardless.

If San Andreas does not qualify as an AO title, what in the world does? I'm referring to the normall accessible aspects of the game, not the sex minigame. That's paltry compared to what the rest of the game contains and implies.

There is a vested financial interest for a game to be rated M or less, and I'm sure that the ESRB is aware of that pressure. In short, if ESRB said SA was "AO," Rockstar would have to edit the game to get it released; would you, as a gamer, be happy with that? Would you blame Rockstar for making a gratuitously hyperviolent and hypersexual title? Or, would you blame the ESRB for being censors and ruining the "purity" of the gaming experience?

The ESRB knows who butters its bread. They simply repay in kind. With that in mind, Yee (?) has a excellent argument. It's only a shame that it's based off of a fucking scene in the game, and not *everything else* in the title.

Actaully Yee's statments hold no water. To begin with niether you nor Yee know if the ESRB even told Rockstar what could or couldn't have in the game originally, but the normal content of the game is not much worse than many R-rated which have the same rule that no one under the age of 17 is supposed to access that material. Just because you think the normal game content maybe hyperviolent and too sexual, doesn't mean it gets an AO rating, not everyone thinks just like you. Yee's argues directly that the ESRB failed parents, but it didn't. It rated the game accordingly to what it saw, a matuer rating indicating no one under 17 should play this game. Once they've done that it's out of their hands, retail stores either sell the games to minors against regulations from the ESRB or parents too stupid to know any better buy them for the kids. Yee is trying to blame the ESRB for that as well as pin them down with this sex minigame crap even though they cannot hack into the game's code to find this kind of stuff. In short, the ESRB is blamed for things it simply has no real control over and is being turned into the prized scapegoat of a politician.

Edit: And to pose a question to you do you think that kids would stop playing if it was rated AO anyhow? I worked in retail for almost 3 years, and about 17 months at Best Buy. There's no possible way i could count the number of times I saw parents buy or quickly talked into buying M rated games, r-rated or even softcore porn movies for kids that couldn't have been any older than 15. They when even sometimes buy the games after I told them it was rated M and for what reasons.

[Dead of Knight]

Man, the modder that discovered that doesn't realize how much shit he got them into..

He likely doesn't care either. He's probably laughing his ass off at this right now.

[Duo_Maxwell]

He likely doesn't care either. He's probably laughing his ass off at this right now.

Maybe it's actually Joe Lieberman trying to bring own the video game industry from the inside... Rockstar's probably been number one on his hitlist for sometime.

[Jeoff]

What does that Yee guy have against the ESRB anyways? It wasn't their fault at all they can't spend a thousand years rating every single game. It was Rockstar's fault for leaving it in there (even though it takes some work to see it).

If anyone is failing our parents it's tax-supported lowlife politicians who have nothing better to do than go on pointless crusades.

San Andreas won't be rerated as AO but this whole thing still sucks. It sucks for Rockstar because it will throw even more scrutiny on their titles in the future. Meaning SOME (not a lot but some) parents will not buy GTA games for their kids in the future. Also, more politicians yearning to pander to Christian conservative parents will try to get in on the video game bashing...

[gamereviewgod]

[quote]You had to put the PS1 disc into a computer and search around the directory. Not easy.[quote]

Nah, it wasn't hard at all. You open the main directory and find the proper file. That's it.

[Apossum]

Man, the modder that discovered that doesn't realize how much shit he got them into..


they got themselves into this mess.

hopefully they'll use the "but the characters are just dry fucking" defense

[JimmieMac]

Label that NSFW, that site is covered in porn ads.

Anyone else see the saddness that the video, as named and described in the original post, once linked a few posts down has been labled as NSFW.

Like the porn ads are the problem if your boss walks by and not the fact that there is video of two people fu(king in a video game.

[Dead of Knight]

they got themselves into this mess.

hopefully they'll use the "but the characters are just dry fucking" defense

If you watch the video JimmieMac provided, they certainly aren't just dry fucking.

[Graystone]

I don't think that it is completely Rockstars fault. They left something in the game they thought no one would ever get to and modify it to be playable. As well it was probably easier and cheaper for the them to leave the code in after it was done and tell the game to ignore it. Then to cut out all of that code. Millions of lines of codes are in GTA:SA.

[Scrubking]

They left something in the game they thought no one would ever get to and modify it to be playable.

That is very naive.

Rockstar and every other software company is aware of the wonders that the mod community can do. They knew there were naked skins and maybe more, and there is no way they believed that the content they left would be unused if gotten a hold of. The mod community has practically made a multiplayer gta from scratch and to say that R* didn't think they could hack a couple of skins and a minigame is ridiculous.

[Purkeynator]

I am not entirely convinced Rockstar didn't leave that part of the game in on purpose. I think they wanted it to be found. Think of what sold millions of copies of previous games- controversy and plenty of media attention from it. When they do this their games get more media attention and more people buy it to see what the big deal is about. Thats just good marketing for them.

[Scrubking]

I am not entirely convinced Rockstar didn't leave that part of the game in on purpose. I think they wanted it to be found. Think of what sold millions of copies of previous games- controversy and plenty of media attention from it. When they do this their games get more media attention and more people buy it to see what the big deal is about. Thats just good marketing for them.

Well according to gamespot R* denies the minigame being theirs, but I will wait for them to prove it.

Until they do I will believe that R* made the game and left it out at the last minute or intended it only for the PC version.

[Dead of Knight]

Well according to gamespot R* denies the minigame being theirs, but I will wait for them to prove it.

Until they do I will believe that R* made the game and left it out at the last minute or intended it only for the PC version.

Supposedly it can be found in all three versions. It's obvious Rockstar made it.

[mykevermin]

Actaully Yee's statments hold no water. To begin with niether you nor Yee know if the ESRB even told Rockstar what could or couldn't have in the game originally, but the normal content of the game is not much worse than many R-rated which have the same rule that no one under the age of 17 is supposed to access that material. Just because you think the normal game content maybe hyperviolent and too sexual, doesn't mean it gets an AO rating, not everyone thinks just like you. Yee's argues directly that the ESRB failed parents, but it didn't. It rated the game accordingly to what it saw, a matuer rating indicating no one under 17 should play this game. Once they've done that it's out of their hands, retail stores either sell the games to minors against regulations from the ESRB or parents too stupid to know any better buy them for the kids. Yee is trying to blame the ESRB for that as well as pin them down with this sex minigame crap even though they cannot hack into the game's code to find this kind of stuff. In short, the ESRB is blamed for things it simply has no real control over and is being turned into the prized scapegoat of a politician.

Edit: And to pose a question to you do you think that kids would stop playing if it was rated AO anyhow? I worked in retail for almost 3 years, and about 17 months at Best Buy. There's no possible way i could count the number of times I saw parents buy or quickly talked into buying M rated games, r-rated or even softcore porn movies for kids that couldn't have been any older than 15. They when even sometimes buy the games after I told them it was rated M and for what reasons.

Well, the "they'll play it no matter the rating" argument suggests that there is no reason whatsoever to play games, so I'm not certain if you do support ratings systems at all; if you do support ratings, why? They're going to play the games anyway, right?

The purchasing whims of parents is not the responsibility of the ESRB. Their jobs is to provide an easily interpretable symbol (rating) that indicates what approximate age group they think should be required to play the game. The ratings cover the ESRB's ass if a parent is offended by content; 'we warned you!' they can say (from a legal perspective, anyway). So, if parents are buying M-rated titles for their kids, that's not up to the ESRB to dictate. That the parents have the opportunity to learn about the rough content of the game is the responsibility of the ESRB.

I don't look at AO as reflective of something to be afraid of, not do I look at NC-17 ratings that way either. They are simply indicative of a product that absolutely screams "NOT FOR CHILDREN." An AO rating to a parent (one that gives a shit about their children, anyway) says that under no circumstances should a child buy this. Do I think that San Andreas would have lost sales as an AO title? Only a negligible number, to be sure. I don't want them to lose sales; I enjoy the GTA games, but I think that the amount of violence in the title is far more graphic and explicit than many titles; the inclusion of drugs is another major factor.

To understand my perspective, you must also know that I think our entertainment media is too permissive of violence. PG-13 movies these days can feature a much greater amount of violence than one might expect; I consider Mola Ram removing a man's heart in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom (the movie that many argue led to a PG-13 rating being developed). That scene is pretty graphic relative to other PG films. But if you show some titty? PG-13 for half a second, R for one or more (approximately). I agree with those who said that the coffee minigame scandal is further indication of our society's occupation with a puritanical outlook on sex. Violence, on the other hand? It matters, sure. It matters a whole lot less. In short, both the MPAA and ESRB are scared to dole out NC-17 or AO ratings, suggesting that both organizations are, in fact, existing with a bias in favor of the industry as a whole. How many AO titles are there?

The criterion ESRB uses (http://www.esrb.org/esrbratings_guide.asp#symbols) is completely useless and ambiguous. In the case of AO titles, scenes of intense violence must be "prolonged," and seems to emphasize "graphic sexual content and nudity." So, again, because our society thinks that getting head is worse than any sort of hyperviolent fantasy you can reenact in GTA, only sexual content is considered in an AO rating. That is simply what I disagree with; politicians are furious about what our children are playing, but they're the very same people who think that hiding sex from children is a far higher priority than violence.

[Duo_Maxwell]

Well, the "they'll play it no matter the rating" argument suggests that there is no reason whatsoever to play games, so I'm not certain if you do support ratings systems at all; if you do support ratings, why? They're going to play the games anyway, right?

I do support ratings systems, they give intelligent parents the oppertunity to have some degree of control in making intelligent choices about what their kids see/play. But they will no doubt find a way to at least play the game or whatever somehow if they really want too, kids are very shrewd. My point was to indicate that even with an AO some idiotic parent is still going to get the game for the 14 yr old kid or some register biscuit will still sell the game to a 12 yr old, and that isn't the fault of the ratings system, but your man Yee seems to think it was. Overall, I'm no big fan of censorship, but I view ratings as a necessary evil because you never know what will get made next and I don't really think they limit the artist/performer/designer all that much.

The purchasing whims of parents is not the responsibility of the ESRB. Their jobs is to provide an easily interpretable symbol (rating) that indicates what approximate age group they think should be required to play the game. The ratings cover the ESRB's ass if a parent is offended by content; 'we warned you!' they can say (from a legal perspective, anyway). So, if parents are buying M-rated titles for their kids, that's not up to the ESRB to dictate. That the parents have the opportunity to learn about the rough content of the game is the responsibility of the ESRB.

Thanks for backing up my point but I guess the labels on the front/back, content description, specific signs in the store, PSA announcements on store radios or TVs, messages to visit the website which has specific content about the ratings, store celrks directly informing you, etc., all that must not be enough oppertunity for parents, but it certainly seems like plenty of oppertunity to me all put forth by the ESRB. I'm not a parent myself, but I know it probably helps to know a little about what your kids like to do, and all you really have to do is look over a game box for 5 seconds to get the message in this case.

I don't look at AO as reflective of something to be afraid of, not do I look at NC-17 ratings that way either. They are simply indicative of a product that absolutely screams "NOT FOR CHILDREN." An AO rating to a parent (one that gives a shit about their children, anyway) says that under no circumstances should a child buy this. Do I think that San Andreas would have lost sales as an AO title? Only a negligible number, to be sure. I don't want them to lose sales; I enjoy the GTA games, but I think that the amount of violence in the title is far more graphic and explicit than many titles; the inclusion of drugs is another major factor.

To understand my perspective, you must also know that I think our entertainment media is too permissive of violence. PG-13 movies these days can feature a much greater amount of violence than one might expect; I consider Mola Ram removing a man's heart in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom (the movie that many argue led to a PG-13 rating being developed). That scene is pretty graphic relative to other PG films. But if you show some titty? PG-13 for half a second, R for one or more (approximately). I agree with those who said that the coffee minigame scandal is further indication of our society's occupation with a puritanical outlook on sex. Violence, on the other hand? It matters, sure. It matters a whole lot less. In short, both the MPAA and ESRB are scared to dole out NC-17 or AO ratings, suggesting that both organizations are, in fact, existing with a bias in favor of the industry as a whole. How many AO titles are there?

The criterion ESRB uses (http://www.esrb.org/esrbratings_guide.asp#symbols) is completely useless and ambiguous. In the case of AO titles, scenes of intense violence must be "prolonged," and seems to emphasize "graphic sexual content and nudity." So, again, because our society thinks that getting head is worse than any sort of hyperviolent fantasy you can reenact in GTA, only sexual content is considered in an AO rating. That is simply what I disagree with; politicians are furious about what our children are playing, but they're the very same people who think that hiding sex from children is a far higher priority than violence.

So I don't get it I guess? Your whole stance is about our society and how is views sex/violence, not the video game ratings right? I think this is where you I start to differ then... The MPAA and ESRB rate games based on OUR society. Why do you think different counrties have different ratings and ratings boards that mostly review the same topic? It's because there are different societies and cultures. Like I said I'm no big fan of censorship, but we have ratings that obviously stem from how our society in general has viewed things in the past. The way you see something may not be how society sees it, it'll always be that way, you'll disagree with society on something, but the ratings and content descriptions help you know a little about whats there before you see it, thats the point, so you (or your kids most likely) can avoid it if you choose. Sorry if that seemed complicated, I'm not too good at always putting long thoughts into words.

Still, I don't fully believe that the ESRB or MPAA are afraid to give out those kinds of ratings. In fact they do give out the ratings (at least the MPAA does), but hose ratings don't exist because movie/game makers are afraid to get them, they never see the mainstream market. Like the original article mentioned it considered a horrible marketing taboo and those guys like money. So what happens instead? Both the MPAA and ESRB have at least some guidelines for what rating something gets, so cut after cut is presented until the maker has the desired rating under the guidelines. That's why you never see them save for maybe the unrated DVD or apparently in this case a mod.

[Vegan]

I agree with that, but it's still a disgrace that Rockstar kept this in the game without informing the ESRB.

But that's just it, it's NOT a legitimately accessible part of the game. It would be like an underaged kid hacking into my personal computer and viewing porn that's stored on it. Would I be responsible for exposing a kid to porn?

[soulwish2003]

I think all of these types of games should be AO. Keep them out of kids hands...

[Gothic Walrus]

Supposedly it can be found in all three versions. It's obvious Rockstar made it.
I've never heard this. How would you get to it in the PS2 and Xbox versions? You can't very well modify the files on the disc, can you?

But that's just it, it's NOT a legitimately accessible part of the game. It would be like an underaged kid hacking into my personal computer and viewing porn that's stored on it. Would I be responsible for exposing a kid to porn?

This is why I don't get the big commotion over the mod. You won't encounter it unless you choose to install it, so why make such a big fuss? Why demand the rating is changed or stores be boycotted?

It would be nice if the mainstream media chose to mention that in their stories on the mod...

I think all of these types of games should be AO. Keep them out of kids hands...
The game is rated "Mature," which means that the major retailers refuse to sell it to anyone who's under 17. I don't see how the AO rating would make a difference, beyond making the game harder to find for those who are old enough to purchase it.

If the game gets into the hands of someone who's too young, it's almost always because the parents bought it for the kid without looking at the rating, let alone researching why it earned that rating.

[radjago]

Rockstar released a statement today denying responsibility.

So far we have learned that the "hot coffee" modification is the work of a determined group of hackers who have gone to significant trouble to alter scenes in the official version of the game," reads the statement. "In violation of the software user agreement, hackers created the 'hot coffee' modification by disassembling and then combining, recompiling and altering the game's source code. Since the 'hot coffee' scenes cannot be created without intentional and significant technical modifications and reverse engineering of the game's source code, we are currently investigating ways that we can increase the security protection of the source code and prevent the game from being altered by the 'hot coffee' modification.

Source (http://www.allheadlinenews.com/cgi-bin/news/newsbrief.plx?id=2242525128&fa=1)

[gamereviewgod]

Hiliary Clinton is going after them with a FCC complaint.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/13/news_6129021.html

You have to love how NO ONE from the industry will be present.