Why is America full of anti-Americans?

[Scrubking]

In the early day when LEGAL immigrants came here from all over the world they where happy to be here, to take up the American flag and proclaim their loyalty to this wonderful and free country. Although they kept their heritage alive they were now Americans and proud of it.

Today, though, America is full of ungrateful America Haters who would rather see our soldiers get slaughtered than for our country to prevail in freeing the middle east. They would rather demonize our own troops for selfish gain, appeasing our enemies, than band together for a just cause - no matter how good or bad it is being handled. The news waves are saturated with anti-american rhetoric and eveyrwhere you turn people who dare call themselves Americans do nothing but blame America for everything that happens. Thousands were murdered at the WTC, it was our fault the America haters say. Islamic murderous, terrorist scum want to wipe out all people's and religions not their own, its America's fault the haters say. People are starving in Africa, its Americas fault the haters say. The WTC memorial, where thousands died, wants to be turned into a hate America first center. Illegals are invading our country by the truckload, but America haters say let them come and freely break the law.

Why do these people who so utterly hate our country live in it? Why do they enjoy its freedoms and privelages only to defame it at every chance? What ever happened to loving your country and wanting to fight for it? Protect it? Uphold its honor and name?

[onetrackmind]

I think many people take their freedoms for granted, as the old saying goes "you dont know what you had until you lose it" rings true here.

The way the world works and the way life in general works is it has always been survival of the fitest. You can't name a single country that hasn't commited atrocities or did something for self-gain because everyone country in the world does it. It is not our job to police the world. In fact I'd be curious to know that if america were in the same boat as a country like africa is in now, if we would have all kinds of people all over the world wanting to help us out... i dont think they would.

I am proud to an american and i totally support the troops that protect our country, although i dont necessarily agree with the war we are in right now, or even giving iraq their freedom. I think its fucked up that their are actually people who disgrace the people who fight for our country. If you have a problem with the war then i think the anger and hatred should be directed towards the government.

I also feel like people are nieve, there isn't ever going to be peace in the world.
It's a nice concept but with the way people are it will never happen.

just my 2 cents.

[camoor]

I also feel like people are nieve, there isn't ever going to be peace in the world.

...as long as there are dogmatic religions/ideologies.

[Saucy Jack]

Most of the people I know have this mentality:

"I support our troops. They are fighting for us and risking their lives. However, I don't support our president."

I don't really know how to classify that. Some would consider it Anti-American. I don't know; I don't judge people on that. I'm just glad that they recognize that our troops are risking it all out there, far away from home.

[onetrackmind]

...as long as there are dogmatic religions/ideologies.

i agree with the fact that religion causes more problems in the world than almost anythign else. Take for instance here in the US we have such a split in our country becuase of religion. Over in the middle-east they have been fighting forever over religion.

[Quackzilla]

The people you call "America haters" are the real Americans, because instead of bending over and accepting poor leadership and restricting civil rights laws we actually stand up an protest, and try to keep America as it should be, land of the free.


The only people who bash America are the crazies and the religious nutjobs who think gay rights cause 9/11.

[camoor]

i agree with the fact that religion causes more problems in the world than almost anythign else. Take for instance here in the US we have such a split in our country becuase of religion. Over in the middle-east they have been fighting forever over religion.

And ideologies. I'm talking fascism, communism, basically any time an authority starts actively supressing any opposing positions.

[evilmax17]

A common mistake that a person like Scrub might make is confusing the "Anti-Americans" with people who think that "while the USA is still the best country in the world, things could still be a lot better". I've often heard "If you think that this country has a better health care system, or if you think that this country has a better moral code, then why don't you just move there!? If you don't like it here, get out!" No way, I'd rather live here than anywhere else, but that doesn't mean we should be content with our flaws (and we have many). Instead of the us-versus-them mentality that we have, we should look to incorporate the best features of other countries to improve ourselves.

Also, I don't know what you or anybody else means when they say "I support the troops", or "You don't support the troops." What exactly does this phrase mean? What are you actually doing to "support" (or help out) the troops, other than putting a magnetic ribbon on your car? Are you enlisting, or donating your time to veteran help centers?

[Quackzilla]

What ever happened to loving your country and wanting to fight for it? Protect it? Uphold its honor and name?
Why haven't you enlisted?

[MrBadExample]

Today, though, America is full of ungrateful America Haters who would rather see our soldiers get slaughtered than for our country to prevail in freeing the middle east. They would rather demonize our own troops for selfish gain, appeasing our enemies, than band together for a just cause - no matter how good or bad it is being handled. The news waves are saturated with anti-american rhetoric and eveyrwhere you turn people who dare call themselves Americans do nothing but blame America for everything that happens. Thousands were murdered at the WTC, it was our fault the America haters say. Islamic murderous, terrorist scum want to wipe out all people's and religions not their own, its America's fault the haters say. People are starving in Africa, its Americas fault the haters say. The WTC memorial, where thousands died, wants to be turned into a hate America first center. Illegals are invading our country by the truckload, but America haters say let them come and freely break the law.

Why do these people who so utterly hate our country live in it? Why do they enjoy its freedoms and privelages only to defame it at every chance? What ever happened to loving your country and wanting to fight for it? Protect it? Uphold its honor and name?

I just want to be clear on who the "America Haters" are. Do you mean Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell who on 9/12/01 blamed this country for the 9/11 attacks? Or is it George Bush who supports amnesty for illegals? Or do you mean all the conservatives who support the idea of a "War on Terrism" but refuse to fight it themselves?

If liberals really hated America, they'd just stand back, corner the handbasket market and watch as this administration runs it into the ground.

[evilmax17]

I think the problem here is that in recent years, certain peoples and administrations have been trying make "conservatism" synonymous with "American", which would lead to a lot of misconceptions and accusations.

[mykevermin]

Someone tell Scrub that:

1) Not all our soldiers are Republicans. He's welcome and prepared to help turn the balance in their favor (or further in their favor) if he enlists.

2) He needs to turn off Michael Savage, and read a book. None of that Hannity/O'Reilly/Franken bullshit, but some real political theory. Perhaps some Keynes economic theory, perhaps some Karl Marx, perhaps some Thomas Paine...you know, motherfucking THINKERS. Until then, all of his rants are going to come across like he plagiarized Rush Limbaugh's opening diatribe from any given show.

Why can't the righties learn to speak in terms of actual numbers, using data? Why can't they discuss theories that support their ideologies? Instead we get some kind of overgeneralized attribution with no evidence whatsoever.

Here's the major problem with anything that comes out of Scrub's craw:
http://changingminds.org/explanations/theories/fundamental_attribution_error.htm

[mykevermin]

I think the problem here is that in recent years, certain peoples and administrations have been trying make "conservatism" synonymous with "American", which would lead to a lot of misconceptions and accusations.

Well, lefties have done a good job in assisting them symbolically, by allowing "flag" to equal "conservative. We all know that symbols mean much more than intellect (based on the perception of that symbol).

[Scrubking]

A common mistake that a person like Scrub might make is confusing the "Anti-Americans" with people who think that "while the USA is still the best country in the world, things could still be a lot better".

There is a difference between disagreeing with your country and demonizing it. Saying that we might have problems in Gitmo is one thing, but calling it a Nazi camp and our soldiers the gestapo is another like our "good american" Turban did.

See the difference??

This country is full of people who can't simply disagree and civily try to work together to make things right. They have to attack, demonize and run the name of our country into the ground.

What ever happened to keeping our problems in house? Instead America Haters have to take public stages and shout to the world how bad we are and how much better they are than us.

[usickenme]

This country is full of people who can't simply disagree and civily try to work together to make things right. They have to attack, demonize..

like this thread??

as for keeping our problems in house..what planet are you living on? A free press should be just that... free. Free to report on the good and the bad. And in the past, there really wasn't a "world stage". One of the consequences of a world media is more information gets out.

[Backlash]

There is a difference between disagreeing with your country and demonizing it. Saying that we might have problems in Gitmo is one thing, but calling it a Nazi camp and our soldiers the gestapo is another like our "good american" Turban did.

See the difference??


Yes. But the number of people in the latter example is relatively low. There are tons of people who are not completely satisfied with our country right now, and that's a good thing - hopefully we can make it better (healthcare, social security, tax code, the list is endless, really).

There really aren't that many people who actively want this country to fail - they just get lots of media attention nowadays.

Furthermore, everyone seems to want to generalize and lump people together into huge groups, e.g. all conservatives are religious maniacs who bomb abortion clinics, and all liberals hate America and are pro-Islam. This is ridiculous. Those of us who do not like the current administration are not anti-American (well, most of us).

[E-Z-B]

Scrubking thinks he's all-american, yet he supports a man who betrayed the country by leaking classified information to retaliate against a whistle-blower all for political gain.

[Kayden]

I'm really not fond of what America is becoming, but I'm quite fond of what it's supposed to be.

There are any number of supporting statements I could give, but honestly, this is such a worn out subject, its not worth my time.

[alonzomourning23]

There's two major camps lately it seems, the ones who view the flag as the most important thing, and those who view the constitution and american liberties as the most important thing. Scrub falls into the first group.

[beguile]

There's two major camps lately it seems, the ones who view the flag as the most important thing, and those who view the constitution and american liberties as the most important thing. Scrub falls into the first group.

I don't think scrub knows what he's talking about. His views are pretty centered. I rather spend my time talking to someone that's open minded. Spending time talking to him won't be productive nor beneficial.

[CaseyRyback]

I think the problem here is that in recent years, certain peoples and administrations have been trying make "conservatism" synonymous with "American", which would lead to a lot of misconceptions and accusations.

They have been doing this for forever. Look at Reagan

[elprincipe]

I think the problem here is that in recent years, certain peoples and administrations have been trying make "conservatism" synonymous with "American", which would lead to a lot of misconceptions and accusations.

Good points. I'd add to your list "support the president" and "support the war" as being somehow necessary to be a "real American." I'm hoping that Scrub really means the fringe elements who really do want to destroy the values that make this country so great, and by that I mean fringe elements to the Right and Left.

[boo]

Scrub: You still haven't said exactly how you're showing your support for this war? Have you enlisted? Are you doing more than speaking out on this forum about people who "hate" America? Were you so disgusted with 9-11 that you went to NYC to volunteer to help with the relief efforts? Have you campaigned for a particular candidate? Did you vote in the last election & furthermore, help get people to the polls? Because no matter what, the only ones that deserve to be complaining, left or right side of the political spectrum, are those who are actively participating in the government/organizations that aid the growth of this country (& that's whether or not you agree with their cause). Being a mere consumer in this country does not mean you're serving your civil duties. If you don't like what's going on, get off your ass and do something about it, something that will uphold the rights granted in our Constitution.

[RelentlessRolento]

people that hate america stay in america not because of america, but rather for money or self power. it's as simple as that. america is too nice to kick them out, which is one of the great things about america.

[chubs189]

i think alot of people also say they hate america is because times are harder now on alot of families than they were when "cough" clinton was in office. and i dont know bout you guys but i have family who is enlisted in the army and i support them morally and spiritually but i for one would not enlist in the army because i would then be forced to fight wars i do not agree with as this current one. and i have much pride and respect for anyone who is in any for of the military.
but i also believe this is all going on because of bush in my opinion he has turned this country into a petrified over religious country and actually combined church and state.because he had people who never voted coming out to vote for him just for the simple fact he was christian and said he would protect them. sorry if my stuff doesnt make alot of sense to some of you but i felt i needed to let that out i dont know bout you guys but bush cant seem to get out of office quick enough.

[Sarang01]

[QUOTE=Scrubking]There is a difference between disagreeing with your country and demonizing it. Saying that we might have problems in Gitmo is one thing, but calling it a Nazi camp and our soldiers the gestapo is another like our "good american" Turban did. QUOTE]

Did you listen to Dick Durbin's WHOLE speech? If you didn't sit down and shut up about it.

[trytej]

Well look at what America has done. Too many things to name but basically almost every other country hates us, citizens are dying at war over a complete mess, and the government hasn't controlled the killing in our own country. Plus, I went to the Bahamas last week, and the people there were way friendlier than Americans.

[Ikohn4ever]

You confuse hating america and using the liberties our fore fathers gave to us. They gave us the right to complain about our government as much as we want. This is a gov for the people and the people have a right to agree or disagree. The original patriots would hate a country of yesmen and people who have their liberties taken away.

"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness" Dec of Independence

It is AMERICAN to speak up when you think the government is giving u a raw deal not sit there and take.

I personally would have no problem defending my country in war as long as I felt it was a just cause, but I do not think it is a just fight right now. I support our troops a 100%, as well as most other people against the war, but we dont have to like the war or the people who sent the sons and daughters of America to Iraq to die.

[vietgurl]

I'm here because I want to sabotage Americans and take away a decent job and a spot at one of the best universities from a true American. (I'm kidding but I've had rednecks accuse me of that before, lol)

Although if supporting America requires me to support the US government's backing (through aid, arms sales, and training) of governments such as the one in Indonesia that slaughtered over a million innocent people, fuck that.

[Sarang01]

Let me guess Viet. They ask where you come from, you mention California or some other state and say "No where do you REALLY come from?!" assuming you're a FOB because you're Asian.

[vietgurl]

Let me guess Viet. They ask where you come from, you mention California or some other state and say "No where do you REALLY come from?!" assuming you're a FOB because you're Asian.

Haha, yeah, despite the fact that I speak English with no Asian accent (I'm an ABV, lol).

I don't get why some people interpret being "American" as shutting up and not exercising the right of freedom of speech. What's the point of being proud of our freedom if we don't bother to exercise it?

[dmpolska]

There's two major camps lately it seems, the ones who view the flag as the most important thing, and those who view the constitution and american liberties as the most important thing. Scrub falls into the first group.


"oh no I got categorized so I'll be a hypocrite and categorize him."

[Sarang01]

Haha, yeah, despite the fact that I speak English with no Asian accent (I'm an ABV, lol).

I don't get why some people interpret being "American" as shutting up and not exercising the right of freedom of speech. What's the point of being proud of our freedom if we don't bother to exercise it?

Who knows? Maybe they don't remember the Constitution although they seem to remember speaking up when a Democrat is in office.
Viet you know what I think is really bad? When the Asian person is BORN here and they can't speak English for SHIT! Case in point Baby V.O.X. They were born here and their English is shitty. It's because they were never around enough people speaking English when they were young and so forth and as well throughout the day. I can understand how for Koreans and other Asians how it's disheartening when they're talented actors, musicians, etc. and the public won't give them the play because of racism and public attitude. Coco Lee is the most POPULAR artist in Taiwan or Hong Kong or BOTH and she was born here! Ming Na Wen can BARELY get a film part here. I just find this type of shit utterly pathetic but I have to say the sacrifice has to be made. Some Asian American artist just has to keep pushing and pushing here and be talented enough. This artist may not break through and sell huge #'s but they'll create a first step that others can go upon to higher level and so on and so forth. I don't think it helps in the HISPANIC community when some of them don't wanna contribute shit and bury their heads in the sand and only listen to Mexican and no Mexican American music. You're AMERICAN, you were born here and stop fucking trying to deny it! X-(

[zionoverfire]

Damn those evil anti-americans who want to use their freedoms in ways you despite!

[Mookyjooky]

Why haven't you enlisted?

I'm still waiting for this question to be answered.

The best way to lead, is to lead by example.... and the best way to fix the system is from within.

[alonzomourning23]

"oh no I got categorized so I'll be a hypocrite and categorize him."

Showing I hate america would be much more difficult than showing scrubking values america and its symbols more than american principles.

[camoor]

I'm still waiting for this question to be answered.

The best way to lead, is to lead by example.... and the best way to fix the system is from within.

I join my distinguished colleague from Charlottesville in demanding to know why Scrubking hasn't enlisted in the armed services.

[neopolss]

"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness" Dec of Independence



Thanks for that information. I myself try to point that out to many as well, that those who truly support the ideals are willing to go against this country or even overthrow it in order to support it. Not that many hear would, but the point is symbolic. Some people support the flag, others support the bill of rights.

I would like to say though that all of the blame cannot fall upon Bush. While his presidency has brought about questionable policy, there is a changing climate within the US that is far beyond even his control.

[coffman]

I join my distinguished colleague from Charlottesville in demanding to know why Scrubking hasn't enlisted in the armed services.

It's because he talks the talk but is too afraid to walk the walk.

[mykevermin]

It's because he talks the talk but is too afraid to walk the walk.

*snif* maybe, one day, he too can become President of the United States of America! *snif*

[Mookyjooky]

I think he has the right to voice his opinion, hes an american who pays taxes and "hopefully" votes... but he sounds like he has some deep seeded issues that call for him to take some action. I think you have some great ideas and alot of work to do. You sound genuinely concerned and I truely believe you have the ability to do it. Go for it, and I wish you well in all your world changing endevors. Let us know how you decide to tackle this issue head-on... we'll stand by you and will be ready to help. ;-)

[Dirt]

I guess Scrub was anti American when Clinton was in. Since not supporting the president = Anti American.




:bouncy::bouncy::bouncy:

[trq]

[size=1]I guess Scrub was anti American when Clinton was in. Since not supporting the president = Anti American.

I know this thread is pretty dead, but I was just wondering the same thing: why is it that criticizing the President is only unamerican when it's a Republican in office? Where were all the "If you hate America so much, why are you here?" asshats when Gingrich called Clinton a scumbag on public record? All I know is, I'm stockpiling every stupid "love it or leave it" comment I come across so I can trot it out when a Democrat is in office.

[MrBadExample]

Why is America full of anti-Americans?

Maybe it's like on Star Trek with matter and anti-matter - you just need both. 8-)

[mykevermin]

I know this thread is pretty dead, but I was just wondering the same thing: why is it that criticizing the President is only unamerican when it's a Republican in office? Where were all the "If you hate America so much, why are you here?" asshats when Gingrich called Clinton a scumbag on public record? All I know is, I'm stockpiling every stupid "love it or leave it" comment I come across so I can trot it out when a Democrat is in office.

I think it's related to the very essence of (generalized) concepts of "liberal" and "conservative," in which the former advocates change and progression (which necessitates discontent with the status quo), while the latter is either content with the status quo, or a previous way of doing things (which necessitates romanticism with a previous period of American politics and culture).

Is that true? Nah, but those are the stereotypes. Conservatives love democracy and laissez-faire capitalism, unless the latter includes porn and abortion clinics. Liberals favor equality for race, gender, and religion (among other categories) over the "market forces."

[elprincipe]

I think it's related to the very essence of (generalized) concepts of "liberal" and "conservative," in which the former advocates change and progression (which necessitates discontent with the status quo), while the latter is either content with the status quo, or a previous way of doing things (which necessitates romanticism with a previous period of American politics and culture).

Is that true? Nah, but those are the stereotypes. Conservatives love democracy and laissez-faire capitalism, unless the latter includes porn and abortion clinics. Liberals favor equality for race, gender, and religion (among other categories) over the "market forces."

Corrections.

Conservatives love democracy and laissez-faire capitalism when it suits them and think both should be reigned in when it doesn't. See: the Patriot Act, Bush's support for steel tariffs, federal interference into certain state issues.

Liberals no longer favor equality, unless just in words. Racist/sexist policies like affirmative action are supported by liberals generally now.

At least both parties can agree on being hypocritical.

[mykevermin]

Corrections.

Conservatives love democracy and laissez-faire capitalism when it suits them and think both should be reigned in when it doesn't. See: the Patriot Act, Bush's support for steel tariffs, federal interference into certain state issues.

Liberals no longer favor equality, unless just in words. Racist/sexist policies like affirmative action are supported by liberals generally now.

At least both parties can agree on being hypocritical.

AA programs are retroactive attempts to reverse discrimination in the job market. Please don't tell me that you think no discrimination exists in the job market. Please.

[elprincipe]

AA programs are retroactive attempts to reverse discrimination in the job market. Please don't tell me that you think no discrimination exists in the job market. Please.

Did I say no discrimination exists? I merely stated AA is a racist/sexist policy, which it is. It promotes discrimination on the basis of race and/or sex.

[vietgurl]

AA programs are retroactive attempts to reverse discrimination in the job market. Please don't tell me that you think no discrimination exists in the job market. Please.

I read somewhere that a lot of places favor hiring Asians because they think that Asians have good work ethics.

Damn us all, we're taking jobs away from hard working Americans :lol:

[elprincipe]

I read somewhere that a lot of places favor hiring Asians because they think that Asians have good work ethics.

Damn us all, we're taking jobs away from hard working Americans :lol:

Assuming that the Asians they are hiring are Americans, how could that be? ;)

Unfortunately, Asians are not immune to racial stereotyping that unfortunately still exists to some degree in our society, albiet obviously not as openly as it used to. But I've worked with Asians who are smart and hardworking as well as Asians who are lazy and stupid, so from personal experience I'd say they're pretty much the same as any other ethnic group.

[Drocket]

I do have to say that every Asian person I've ever met (and I've met pretty many) has been a very hard worker. I don't really know if it counts as 'stereotyping' to simple acknowledge that Asian cultures tend to place a much higher importance on hard work than American culture does. Now, the idea that Asian people are more intelligent than Americans is definitely a myth: I've met several Asian people who have been too dumb to come in out of the rain. They would, however, be out there working very, very hard in the rain...

[RBM]

But I've worked with Asians who are smart and hardworking as well as Asians who are lazy and stupid, so from personal experience I'd say they're pretty much the same as any other ethnic group.

All I have to say is, if my next boss is a chinese male, I'm going to tack on an extra 50% to my desired salary. Because working for one for the past few years has spiked my hair with white, wrecked havoc with my immune system (I've literally broken out in rashes...probably not caused by but definitely aggravated by stress,) and made me a wee bit bitter toward my fellow chinkies.

[elprincipe]

I do have to say that every Asian person I've ever met (and I've met pretty many) has been a very hard worker. I don't really know if it counts as 'stereotyping' to simple acknowledge that Asian cultures tend to place a much higher importance on hard work than American culture does. Now, the idea that Asian people are more intelligent than Americans is definitely a myth: I've met several Asian people who have been too dumb to come in out of the rain. They would, however, be out there working very, very hard in the rain...

If Asians work harder than Americans, do they work 10 times as hard as the French?

[Drocket]

If Asians work harder than Americans, do they work 10 times as hard as the French?
That's where things get more complex. You see, if you look at how much work the French get done per hour of work, on average, they actually get a good deal more done than the average American worker. Simply put, they work the 40 hour American work week, but do it in 35 hours, then go home.

Japan also deserves some special mention here, because it very much bucks the trend of the rest of its Asian brethren: although Japan is famous for the long work hours, they actually get remarkably little done in that time. They work about 50% more, on average, than American workers, yet their overall productivity is only marginally higher. They put in a 40 hour American work week, but it takes them 60 hours to do it.

So the question is, what exactly is the definition of 'hard work'? Is it merely putting in long hours regardless of what you get accomplished, or is it getting the work you're assigned done ASAP?

*edit*
If anyone is interested in the actual number, BTW, here's a PDF summarizing worker productivity (http://www1.oecd.org/publications/e-book/92-2003-04-1-7294/PDF%5CD1.pdf) from OECD.

[vietgurl]

I do have to say that every Asian person I've ever met (and I've met pretty many) has been a very hard worker. I don't really know if it counts as 'stereotyping' to simple acknowledge that Asian cultures tend to place a much higher importance on hard work than American culture does. Now, the idea that Asian people are more intelligent than Americans is definitely a myth: I've met several Asian people who have been too dumb to come in out of the rain. They would, however, be out there working very, very hard in the rain...

True, my dad, not to insult him because he's a really cool guy, isn't very smart; he flunked out of high school in Vietnam and flunked every single class he ever took at a community college. He has worked at least 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for as long as I can remember though. Then again, my mom was the top of her class her entire life and aced every class she took when she came to the US despite not knowing any English and she too worked overtime until she injured herself and had to reduce her work schedule to only 40 hours a week.

Me...I'm lazy as hell but I've managed to somehow get really high grades up 'til now, hehe. I think those childhood years of spending an extra 3 hours a day studying math on the side (after school) and practicing piano 2 hours everyday burned me out, lol. Now, I'm posting on CAG while playing videogames instead of studying for my midterm. Let me type a little more so I don't have to go study yet...just a little more...damn.

[mykevermin]

Did I say no discrimination exists? I merely stated AA is a racist/sexist policy, which it is. It promotes discrimination on the basis of race and/or sex.

Yes, it does. Personally, until discrimination is minimized to statistical insignificance, policies need to do something to place people in jobs that they are qualified for, yet aren't white enough for. Once social scientists can't find an iota of job discrimination on the basis of race or gender, then AA programs should be phased out.

Until then, what would you do to reduce discrimination, given your obvious dislike for AA-based policies?

[MaxBiaggi2]

Back on the original topic, I believe America is primarily about freedom, and that includes the freedom to disagree with elected leaders and foreign policy (and the freedom to publicly voice such disagreements). Indeed if the people here had always simply and politely followed the orders of those above, the USA would still be a British colony.

[elprincipe]

Yes, it does. Personally, until discrimination is minimized to statistical insignificance, policies need to do something to place people in jobs that they are qualified for, yet aren't white enough for. Once social scientists can't find an iota of job discrimination on the basis of race or gender, then AA programs should be phased out.

Until then, what would you do to reduce discrimination, given your obvious dislike for AA-based policies?

Aggressively enforce anti-discrimination laws. After all, two wrongs don't make a right. And you end up hurting those who did no wrong and helping those who were never aggrieved through blanket racist policies like AA. I personally find abhorrent the idea that government would sanction any racial/gender discrimination.

[GreenMonkey]

From original post:


Today, though, America is full of ungrateful America Haters who would rather see our soldiers get slaughtered than for our country to prevail in freeing the middle east. They would rather demonize our own troops for selfish gain, appeasing our enemies, than band together for a just cause - no matter how good or bad it is being handled.


I don't band around a cause I don't think is just. It sounds good to "bring freedom" to a country, but how many people do you have to kill to do it? There's a fine line there that I think has been tread over. There are people in rebellion against American occupation, how can I argue with that, really, knowing that the US has behaved badly in the middle east, historically? If someone occupied our country and tried to put a new one in, I would be pissed too! So what if the government now sucks, that doesn't mean I want Czechoslovakia, China, or Brazil (just pulling some random countries out here) creating us a new one! There's plenty of valid reasons that many Iraqis would want us out of there, despite the theoretically enlightened reasons for being there.


In the early day when LEGAL immigrants came here from all over the world they where happy to be here, to take up the American flag and proclaim their loyalty to this wonderful and free country. Although they kept their heritage alive they were now Americans and proud of it.


I'm not "proud to be an American". I'm proud of some things our country does, and not proud of others. Pride is one of the seven deadly sins for a reason.


eveyrwhere you turn people who dare call themselves Americans do nothing but blame America for everything that happens. Thousands were murdered at the WTC, it was our fault the America haters say. Islamic murderous, terrorist scum want to wipe out all people's and religions not their own, its America's fault the haters say.



There's a difference between "blame" and "reasons". There are many reasons that people over there don't like the USA, there's this little thing called "history" that people get hung up on. I don't "blame" the US, I merely acknowledge that there are very valid reasons for some people to be pissed at us/hate us. Here's a good read about Middle Eastern history that someone here posted...from the cato institute, I assume a non-objectionable source for a conservative :
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-159.html

I don't love America. Nothing I hate worse than the "greatest country in the world" B.S. That sounds like an arrogant form of Nationalism to me that says "the way we do things is best". There is no greatest country, just like there is no greatest kind of HDTV, greatest kind of videogame, or greatest car. There are merely good and bad points, not something you can add up and come up with a "best". That doesn't mean there aren't flaws that need to be addressed, and it doesn't mean there aren't any big problems (The USA has a pretty good number of good things, which surely outnumber the bad by far, admittedly).

Think of it this way...(PAD will understand this maybe if he reads, he likes RPGs right?) I like Final Fantasy X. I like the story, the battle system, and many other things about it. But it was way too easy, the gratouitous cleavage shots and unrealistic clothing to fight in are dumb, and there are some really annoying minigames. That doesn't mean I don't like FFX. I don't love it or hate it blindly, there is a mix of feelings about it. There are some things about it that are great and some parts that suck. I feel the same way about the USA - some very good things and some very bad things. Overall it's a great country, but like all large organizations, it is occasionally capable of great evil as well as great good.

I'll leave off with this quote from Einstein:

"Nationalism, on my opinion, is nothing more than an idealistic rationalization for militarism and aggression."

[Rich]

I haven't read any of this thread but:

Why is America full of anti-Americans?

Like the SUV and hummer driving assholes.

I've been trying to get my parents to reconsider buying the fucking X5. :(

[trq]

... racial stereotyping that unfortunately still exists to some degree in our society, albiet obviously not as openly as it used to.

Well, unless you're an "A-rab" or a "Mooslim," anyway. That's some taken-at-face-value racism right there. But I digress.

[MaxBiaggi2]

What ever happened to loving your country and wanting to fight for it?

Diversity is our greatest strength. When I say "diversity," I don't just mean different colors of people. Diversity also includes a wide range of knowledge, experiences, cultures and (yes, I know it's hard to believe) opinions.

Everyone doesn't think alike. If they did, this country would likely be inhabited by mindless robots who fell in lockstep behind everything the current government figureheads had to say.

Just because government leaders say something doesn't make it true, and just because you do or do not choose to believe what these leaders say does not mean you don't love your country.

[darkhunter]

Wow i'm not even gonna touch this thread with my real thoughts. I would say things that would really upset some people...

There's good and bad about this country, we all have it pretty easy here compared to most of the world, thats the good, but there is a lot of negative. America could just be a lot better I thuink but a lot of people are... I dunno just brainwashed or mis informed or something...

Honestly if money/job/language, etc was no object I would choose to live in Japan or some of Europe but that's just me. Unfortunally i'm stuck here.... again not to say I have it bad and I probably should be grateful, but there are a lot of things wrong with this country. Maybe I am a victim of the "grass is always greener on the other side" but I just look at other countries and think why can't we do that here, or why is that not this way here, etc, etc.

And i'm not even really talking about the whole war on terror thing, there's things like healthcare issues and how this country is run and blinded by politics, lawyers, and the media and I hate how everyone always jumps on a bandwagon when the don't even know what they are really protesting against.

[elprincipe]

Wow i'm not even gonna touch this thread with my real thoughts. I would say things that would really upset some people...

There's good and bad about this country, we all have it pretty easy here compared to most of the world, thats the good, but there is a lot of negative. America could just be a lot better I thuink but a lot of people are... I dunno just brainwashed or mis informed or something...

Honestly if money/job/language, etc was no object I would choose to live in Japan or some of Europe but that's just me. Unfortunally i'm stuck here.... again not to say I have it bad and I probably should be grateful, but there are a lot of things wrong with this country. Maybe I am a victim of the "grass is always greener on the other side" but I just look at other countries and think why can't we do that here, or why is that not this way here, etc, etc.

And i'm not even really talking about the whole war on terror thing, there's things like healthcare issues and how this country is run and blinded by politics, lawyers, and the media and I hate how everyone always jumps on a bandwagon when the don't even know what they are really protesting against.

You should share your thoughts if you want to. That's what this forum is for, after all.

And I'd just point out that if you think they don't have people blinded by politics, health care issues, lawyers and rabid media (hello, Paparazzi!) in other places, you really need to get over a severe grass-is-greener case.

[charcoalfeather]

because it is so the "in" thing to do right now

[GuilewasNK]

As long as anti-Americanism is expressed with (free) speech and not violent action or interference of my life, I could care less how people feel. If you hate America so be it. If you hate America and block the street to protest whatever bothers you and you make me late for work, then you become my problem.

My Jackie Chan quote below is why I feel this way....

[Demolition Man]

Okay here's my two cents on the subject matter...

Does it make me Anti-American just because my views on what is going on isn't a Pro view? No it shouldn't. That's one of the greatest things about this country is being able to express an opinion without worrying about being jailed, persecuted, or anything else otherwise. And its simply wrong to want to have someone thrown out of the country just because they aren't afraid to say that there are problems with our country.

Now yes I do support our troops out there in the middle east right now, but however I do not agree on our administrations reasoning of being out there. Yeah our administration says that its to free the countries and give them democracy, but in my eyes this is reminding me too much of the days of England trying to rule us before we kicked their ass out and became our own nation.

Indeed history is repeating itself, and while yes a few things are different now however there are quite a few simularities that parrallel over between back then and now.

Don't get me wrong folks. I love America. I love what this country stands for. But even then we do have problems folks. Denying they are there is only going to make things worse, but admitting to them is the first step to change. Its too bad that George W. Bush is too blind to realize this, but hey 51% of this country decided that he's the man to represent and lead us. I guess they know something I don't, right?

[alonzomourning23]

Wow i'm not even gonna touch this thread with my real thoughts. I would say things that would really upset some people...

There's good and bad about this country, we all have it pretty easy here compared to most of the world, thats the good, but there is a lot of negative. America could just be a lot better I thuink but a lot of people are... I dunno just brainwashed or mis informed or something...

Honestly if money/job/language, etc was no object I would choose to live in Japan or some of Europe but that's just me. Unfortunally i'm stuck here.... again not to say I have it bad and I probably should be grateful, but there are a lot of things wrong with this country. Maybe I am a victim of the "grass is always greener on the other side" but I just look at other countries and think why can't we do that here, or why is that not this way here, etc, etc.

And i'm not even really talking about the whole war on terror thing, there's things like healthcare issues and how this country is run and blinded by politics, lawyers, and the media and I hate how everyone always jumps on a bandwagon when the don't even know what they are really protesting against.

I sorta agree with you, except I wouldn't want to live in japan (they don't seem the most tolerant country from what I've heard). But I like canada better, or at least toronto. I like the government better, and the media (it was odd not seeing every single newsshow dominated by violence, in the u.s. it's made out to be much worse on the news than it actually is) was better. Though, I'm not sure how much of it was I like canada better, or I just loved toronto and canada was ok too.

[darkhunter]

I sorta agree with you, except I wouldn't want to live in japan (they don't seem the most tolerant country from what I've heard). But I like canada better, or at least toronto. I like the government better, and the media (it was odd not seeing every single newsshow dominated by violence, in the u.s. it's made out to be much worse on the news than it actually is) was better. Though, I'm not sure how much of it was I like canada better, or I just loved toronto and canada was ok too.


Japan is different. It would be too hard to just pack up and move there without having been born there it would be hard to learn the way of life and of course the language. If you were born there though it seems a pleasant place to call home, to me anyways. They know respect and values and that's something we sure could use here.

Canada is real nice, I have been a couple times including toronto.
The things you mentioned are very true. Michael Moore covered it in bowling for columbine. How safe it is (no one even locks doors ?) and how different the media is. I dunno we are just bloodthirsty in the USA, LOL.
We dont wanna turn on the news and hear about something "nice" we wanna see who was murdered, robbed and raped that day.

And it sucks because you would be surprised how many people buy into all that.
How it makes so many people so paranoid when, and I mean there's nothing wrong with being safe, but some people get so freaked out they let paranoia run their life.

Take my mom for example. I hate to say this about her but she's a freak show.
She is so scared of everything. I mean she lets that 1 person who gets murdered
or something freak her out and she thinks people are getting gunned down all day long (and this is funny cause she lives in such a safe area) and she forgets that for every 1 that's murdered like a hundred thousand others walked the streets that month and went about their lives and were fine.

Again this varies by area. Would I want my mom walking alone in downtown detroit at night, no. But in the small community she lives in she has very little to worry about. And again i'm probably guilty of being paranoid, is detroit for example really as unsafe as it's made out to be ?? I doubt it. Then on the other hand they say you can walk the streets of tokyo anytime and be perfectly safe.

Of course the news does not report that, they only report the 1 single person who did happen to get gunned down. And so on and so on, that's just 1 example.

And yet on the other hand it's hard to say if we are all "the grass is greener on the other side" victims.

We can all sit here and think wow I bet Canada or Japan or Europe is so much better but i'm sure they have their negatives too. Unfortunally I doubt there is 1 "perfect" nation. Plus why is it everyone always wants to come to the USA?
There must be something good about being here though i'm getting harder pressed to see what that is...

Though I have to say perfect or not i'd sure rather be in canada or japan when someone finially gets pissed off enough at the USA for always poking our nose in their business and they send all their nukes our way ;)

Atleast the world does not hate Canada.

Of course when they send their nukes here we will send out nukes there too, some other jumpy nations will probably join in and in a day probably half the known world will be gone, LOL. Maybe i'm just being paranoid now, but seriously, if anyone decides to lanch a nuke things are pretty much over I think. I mean HOPEFULLY no one is dumb enough to actually lanuch one cause they just know one is gonna come right back at em, but I mean who knows not everyone is all there in the head. It's just scary to know that so quickly almost the whole world could be wiped out. But I mean hey I still go about my day like normal and stuff.

[alonzomourning23]

Well, I wasn't really a victim of the grass is greener thing since I actually have lived in toronto and, oddly enough, it basically met my expectations. But, the violent crime is lower (they usually have between 60-80 homocides a year out of 2.5 million people, in the 90's it had a lower homicide rate than vermont 5 or 6 out of 10 years, and one year even had a lower homocide total, don't even think it reached 20 that year). Though, I mentioned it in another post, it's a different mindset. People do lock there doors, but may don't and they don't lock them nearly as often. I lived in a 2 family apartment (plus a strange guy in the basement) and the woman downstairs kept commenting on that I was always locking the front door. She didn't lock the front or her apartment door unless it was night time. One day the young girl across the street had someone break into her apartment and rape her. The woman downstairs had lived in that exact apartment, and the next day she didn't even lock her door then. She always had it open too, unless it was too cold.

[Drocket]

Japan is different. It would be too hard to just pack up and move there without having been born there it would be hard to learn the way of life and of course the language. If you were born there though it seems a pleasant place to call home, to me anyways. They know respect and values and that's something we sure could use here.
Never heard of Kancho, I take it? (http://www.outpostnine.com/editorials/teacher.html)

[alonzomourning23]

Never heard of Kancho, I take it? (http://www.outpostnine.com/editorials/teacher.html)

We're a gaming website, games and anime come from japan, therefore japan is heaven.

Why people seem to decide their favorite country based on the media they produce is beyond me. I'm not saying japan doesn't seem nice, it's just that so many people become obsessed with japan simply due to the media it produces.

[Sarang01]

Never heard of Kancho, I take it? (http://www.outpostnine.com/editorials/teacher.html)

WOW Drocket, that teacher he works with sounds great, the Americanized one.

[MrBadExample]

Its too bad that George W. Bush is too blind to realize this, but hey 51% of this country decided that he's the man to represent and lead us. I guess they know something I don't, right?
Just a small correction: 51% of the VOTERS went for Bush, not 51% of the country.