It's 9-11 once again does anyone still care?

[Drtyazn]

It seems like such a long time since the twin tower tragedy. Every year its' significance dwindles as people "move on and try to forget." That's what it looks like out here in Seattle. A few scattered flags on houses, cars, shirts. I guess everything fades in time, and being in the middle of the New Orleans crisis, it takes a back seat. I wish it didn't take disaster to bring our country together. What do you CAGs think? Anyone still care?

[pimpinc333]

I can't believe its been four years already. But yea i'm never gonna forget about this. How can anyone forget?

[smalien1]

Isn't 9/11 now officialy Patriot Day?

[Mr. Anderson]

I realized when I woke up, mainly because it's an unusually gloomy day here. Rain and mud, but no thunder or lightning.

[opportunity777]

No

[the_gloaming]

I can't believe you would even ask that.

[MadChedar0]

Isn't 9/11 now officialy Patriot Day?

Yeah I saw "Patriot Day" on my calendar at work, when did that happen...

But back to topic, yeah I think people still care. You don't need to be in constant shock and fear to adequately remember something like 9/11.

[musha666]

Nope, dont care.

I feel for the people who lost loved ones then. But it is done and over with, no use living in the past though.

[Xevious]

After what happened with the Katrina Hurricane, I know we are not ready for another 9/11 style attack.

[Drtyazn]

I can't believe you would even ask that.
I am just commenting on what I see out here, it's business as usual. I guess one can care and not show it...

[RAMSTORIA]

After what happened with the Katrina Hurricane, I know we are not ready for another 9/11 style attack.

i dont think thats true at all. they are completely different. in style, preperations, and execution.

to stay on topic, im sure people still care, it varies like levels

[jmcc]

I care, mainly because of the way that we reacted the worst in the years since it. We've done more harm to America than the terrorists ever could have hoped to.

[PawnTakesKing]

Nope, dont care.

I feel for the people who lost loved ones then. But it is done and over with, no use living in the past though.

Try telling that to anybody who lost a loved one during 9/11.

This isn't a personal attack on you; it's just the fact that we will never know what it feels like because we haven't been in their shoes. I'll bet there are a lot of people in NYC "living in the past," even if it's only for today.

[jmcc]

i dont think thats true at all. they are completely different. in style, preperations, and execution.

to stay on topic, im sure people still care, it varies like levels

Yeah, a 9/11 is comparatively easy to clean up. I think they were saying that we're clearly not ready for a terrorist attack on a city-wide level, though. And we're sure not. If a suitcase nuke or biological contaminant was released in a major metro center it would end up just like Katrina; Probably worse, since there'd be no warning in such a case.

[Hunter55]

nah, people still remember it....theres a memorial show for it right before the jets game i think.

[slidecage]

Nope, dont care.

I feel for the people who lost loved ones then. But it is done and over with, no use living in the past though.


well if you want to say that then lets add all the people in the hurricane. BOO HOO stop crying its done and over with no get off your asses and get jobs

[jmcc]

well if you want to say that then lets add all the people in the hurricane. BOO HOO stop crying its done and over with no get off your asses and get jobs

Because several years time is the same as a week or two?

[Apossum]

to be honest, you just reminded me but I do care. It was shitty, and I still wonder from time to time what it would be like to be close to ground zero and see the whole thing go down. A lot of people I know who were there won't even talk about it.

[DV8]

I'm sure people do care and remember, but the whole flag hanging days because everyone else is doing it and it's "patriotic" is over.

[opportunity777]

I care, mainly because of the way that we reacted the worst in the years since it. We've done more harm to America than the terrorists ever could have hoped to.

Couldn't agree more.

[zionoverfire]

I don't care, 9-11 has really become a marred symbol wrapped up in our President's crusade through the middle east to me.

[Scorch]

Everyone still remembers, we're all just trying to repress the memory. Who would want to focus on it, you know? So many people died that day, it's not like this is a happy anniversary. I think it's actually pretty sickening that this would even be considered a holiday. Let's take a look at the definition:

hol·i·day Audio pronunciation of "holiday" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hl-d)
n.

1. A day free from work that one may spend at leisure, especially a day on which custom or the law dictates a halting of general business activity to commemorate or celebrate a particular event.
2. A religious feast day; a holy day.

This isn't a religious feast day, and the only "holy" part about this day is the "holy shit!" part. I agree with Zion. 9-11 has become more of a staple for the war than anything else..

this thread's going to turn ugly..

[pop311]

Everyone still remembers, we're all just trying to repress the memory. Who would want to focus on it, you know? So many people died that day, it's not like this is a happy anniversary. :cry:

[Epic Wolf]

None of you are New Yorker's, 9/11 was the same to a lot of you as watching something getting blown up across the globe...out of site out of mind..I see Ground Zero all the time, I still see the flowers and the picture's on the wall's, I was downtown the day it happened, I still remember walking 7 miles to get home... the Smoke, watching people plummet to their death's on live TV, the fear of not knowing what's next, so for all you insensitive bastards on here you can all kiss my ass and be grateful it wasn't your hometown and wasn't your family member's dying, my heart goes out to all the Katrina survivor's and families' of 9/11...

[Banshee350]

I don't care, 9-11 has really become a marred symbol wrapped up in our President's crusade through the middle east to me.
Dude you are such a dick....How could you say that you dont care...

How would you like it if you were one of the people stuck on the planes or in the towers when it happened...or someone in your family was. Bet you would care then, huh?

[jmcc]

Dude you are such a dick....How could you say that you dont care...

How would you like it if you were one of the people stuck on the planes or in the towers when it happened...or someone in your family was. Bet you would care then, huh?

The whole thing's become a mockery, though. Any time some congressman wants to push something through they make mention of 9/11. It's a joke. A disgusting joke.

[stag8603]

I definitely care and I will never forget. I don't want to dwell on it though. I live near DC and now people who work in the Pentagon. I will never forget when I heard what happened. Nobody knew what to say or do. There really was nothing to say. Everyone was in shock. I didn't expect it, nor did many others. My life changed a lot that day.

Tht's all i gotta say. I think everyone should care. You shouldn't have to think about it and feel down all day, though.

[camoor]

Try telling that to anybody who lost a loved one during 9/11.

This isn't a personal attack on you; it's just the fact that we will never know what it feels like because we haven't been in their shoes. I'll bet there are a lot of people in NYC "living in the past," even if it's only for today.

About 2800 people died in 9/11.

More then 25,000 people die of starvation every single day.

Historically 9/11 was significant, it was taken as an act of war and despite a costly conflict the executive branch failed utterly in their responsibility to catch the terrorist leader.

Now American soldiers are dying in a country that had nothing to do with the 9/11 incident.

9/11, sure it was a failure of intelligence but the reactionary nationalistic jingoism and ineffective press corps shortly thereafter were a much costlier mistake.

It angers me that this presidential administration has used the phrase "9/11" and general public ignorance to finance their neocon agenda. People should recognize the even for what it is - a tragic terrorist attack, not a call to arms for a modern day middle-east oil-and-democracy crusades.

This is totally not an attack on you dude, it's just my rebuttal to years of listening to a carefully cultivated ethnocentric interpretation on what was really a failure of general airline security and American intelligence agencies.

[RBM]

Yes, I care. The anniversary of the Sept 11th attacks reminds me that there lots of people out there who would gladly kill me for my nationality, my ethnicity, my religious affiliation (or lack thereof,) or even for the color clothes I happen to be wearing. I remember running down a list of my friends and family as I listened to the radio that morning, thinking if any of them were in the effected areas. I remind myself that people are people the whole world over, and that a turbaned Muslim man in the Middle East is trying to make the best of his life today, just like I am...just like my Jewish neighbors, my Catholic neighbors, and my agnostic neighbors. And I try to bear with as much good grace as I can the predictable yet unavoidable shenanigans of interest groups and public officials who will always try to capitalize on human misery, in their efforts to push their own agendas.

[OrangeCurtain]

"Those who forget the past are condemmed to repeat it"

As a history teacher, this quote (and other variations) is something that I feel is incredibly important. Just because you feel that someone has co-opted an event for their own personal or political gain should not affect YOUR feeling on the event.

If you truly don't care, then I suppose your political or social opinions don't matter much because it is likely that you are so apathetic and disillusioned that you will never exercise your right to vote...only your right to whine on a message board :)

To those that do remember (even if it is only on this day), thank you.

OC

[Birakon]

wow i love all these liberal camel jocky lovers who think the war in iraq is over oil



YES i care it was a horrible day for anyone with feelings , i try to forget about it

[jmcc]

wow i love all these liberal camel jocky lovers who think the war in iraq is over oil



YES i care it was a horrible day for anyone with feelings , i try to forget about it

Woo. And heeeeeeeeere comes the racial slurs.

[kittie]

I think all of us still care about the tragedy...

But, it's gotten to the point where the DATE September 11th has no meaning for me. Plus, it's my Aunt's birthday, with mine 2 days after, so we don't want this day to be doom and gloom.

[Gregory Kimball]

I can't believe you would even ask that.
Holy crap, you're right! The OP is asking people how they feel about the anniversary of a terrorist attack! Let's get him!

[Drtyazn]

Thanks for the honest resonses.. agreeing or not. Last Wednesday a lady's car was dead in a right turn lane, and at least 5 cars drove right around honking, and one guy flipped her off. I also was late for work, but I stopped and pushed her car around the corner. A few more people honked and gave hand gestures to me as I got back to my car. I wonder if people who hate Americans think we're all like the ones who drive by and scoff. Maybe things like that don't really matter in the big picture. Maybe we're hated for who we are no matter what. That's a sick feeling.

[camoor]

"Those who forget the past are condemmed to repeat it"

As a history teacher, this quote (and other variations) is something that I feel is incredibly important. Just because you feel that someone has co-opted an event for their own personal or political gain should not affect YOUR feeling on the event.

If you truly don't care, then I suppose your political or social opinions don't matter much because it is likely that you are so apathetic and disillusioned that you will never exercise your right to vote...only your right to whine on a message board :)

To those that do remember (even if it is only on this day), thank you.

OC

While Pearl Harbor and now 9/11 will live on as days of infamy in the most American's minds, as a history teacher do you also mark the anniversary of incidents such as Wounded Knee (12/29)? As you say:

"Those who forget the past are condemmed to repeat it"

[DuelLadyS]

I remember, but for an entirely different reason- Sept. 11th is my sister's birthday.

I got her the 3rd InuYasha movie, which she much liked. :D

[Rocko]

I remember, and care.

I don't think I'll ever forget. I'm not insane about it, but I remember and care.

[Kingjay89]

About 2800 people died in 9/11.

More then 25,000 people die of starvation every single day.

Historically 9/11 was significant, it was taken as an act of war and despite a costly conflict the executive branch failed utterly in their responsibility to catch the terrorist leader.

Now American soldiers are dying in a country that had nothing to do with the 9/11 incident.

9/11, sure it was a failure of intelligence but the reactionary nationalistic jingoism and ineffective press corps shortly thereafter were a much costlier mistake.

It angers me that this presidential administration has used the phrase "9/11" and general public ignorance to finance their neocon agenda. People should recognize the even for what it is - a tragic terrorist attack, not a call to arms for a modern day middle-east oil-and-democracy crusades.

This is totally not an attack on you dude, it's just my rebuttal to years of listening to a carefully cultivated ethnocentric interpretation on what was really a failure of general airline security and American intelligence agencies.
Caring about 9/11 should not be looked at as a political issue. You may not agree with what has traspired after the attacks (im not here to argue), but you should care. All of those people trapped in the buildings and airplanes, and all those brave firefighers and policemen lost their lives, and you want to turn it into "Well I dont care because Bush screwed up". I dont mean to make it a personal attack on you, but people in general who look at 9/11 in that way. You dont have to be depressed or sad all day, but just remember what happened and care

[Kingjay89]

Thanks for the honest resonses.. agreeing or not. Last Wednesday a lady's car was dead in a right turn lane, and at least 5 cars drove right around honking, and one guy flipped her off. I also was late for work, but I stopped and pushed her car around the corner. A few more people honked and gave hand gestures to me as I got back to my car. I wonder if people who hate Americans think we're all like the ones who drive by and scoff. Maybe things like that don't really matter in the big picture. Maybe we're hated for who we are no matter what. That's a sick feeling.
agreed. too many americans care only about themselves and are ignorant to their surroundings.

[jennie25]

Yeah I saw "Patriot Day" on my calendar at work, when did that happen...

But back to topic, yeah I think people still care. You don't need to be in constant shock and fear to adequately remember something like 9/11.

Yeah, it's another commercialized holiday (another day for the government that doesn't work, to have off and get paid for it). I guess I care and I dont' care, I look at it as a tragedy for all those involved (minus terrorists), but I look at it as the begining of the downfall of the US government, I can't beleive they had all the info they needed, but just didn't act on it... I also can't believe bush is truly president for two freakin terms (what an ass)... it is all so sad

[redgopher]

The whole thing's become a mockery, though. Any time some congressman wants to push something through they make mention of 9/11. It's a joke. A disgusting joke.

http://www.kontraband.com/show/show.asp?ID=1627&NEXTID=0&PREVID=1629&DISPLAYORDER=20041006140828&CAT=mov

[camoor]

Caring about 9/11 should not be looked at as a political issue. You may not agree with what has traspired after the attacks (im not here to argue), but you should care. All of those people trapped in the buildings and airplanes, and all those brave firefighers and policemen lost their lives, and you want to turn it into "Well I dont care because Bush screwed up". I dont mean to make it a personal attack on you, but people in general who look at 9/11 in that way. You dont have to be depressed or sad all day, but just remember what happened and care

Where did I say I didn't care. 9/11 was a horrible failure of our intelligence agencies and executive branch all around, it resulted in uneeded loss of life very close to my home, I care very much.

I was just saying that if you take politics out of it (as you suggest) then the 25,000 people who die of starvation each and every day, the victims of corrupt dictatorships, sweatshops, and completely amoral business cartels; the censored, the opressed, the poor; they deserve at least equal compassion. Yet these people never get 1/1000th as much coverage as the footage of two planes crashing in the buildings.

The OP was asking how much we care about 9/11, I'm just being honest. I figure more can be done to lessen tragedy by thinking globally.

[OrangeCurtain]

While Pearl Harbor and now 9/11 will live on as days of infamy in the most American's minds, as a history teacher do you also mark the anniversary of incidents such as Wounded Knee (12/29)? As you say:

"Those who forget the past are condemmed to repeat it"

Ah, moral relativism. Just because society forgets some events, they should also forget those that you see as being less important. Where did you buy your rose colored glasses?

I have taught my students about as many important events in United States history as I can in 9+ months. Considering they lived through 9/11, their responses and feelings are part of history, and that should be encouraged and welcomed, not scoffed. They can make their own connections between 9/11 and past atrocities. For instance, we have had discussions on the Patriot Act vis-a-vis the response to the Japanese post-Pearl Harbor.

For the record, I teach The Long March, Trail of Tears, Wounded Knee and subsequent Indian Relocation movements and the Dawes Act when we deal with the struggles between the native peoples and the 'new' Americans. In hindsight, were those positive moments in our history? No. Were they unavoidable given the universal belief by the U.S. citizenry that it was our Manifest Destiny to possess everything West of the Mississippi? Yes. We were the technological superior and we took that which we could not negotiate for. Such is the way of the world my friend. Equating the deaths of 300 (as per Wounded Knee) which comes during a period of continuing violence in the area and saved more lives in the end because it ENDED armed conflict in the region with an unprovoked attack (9/11) solely on civilians that claims 9x the lives is pretty ignorant.

OC

[jmcc]

Ah, moral relativism. Just because society forgets some events, they should also forget those that you see as being less important. Where did you buy your rose colored glasses?

I have taught my students about as many important events in United States history as I can in 9+ months. Considering they lived through 9/11, their responses and feelings are part of history, and that should be encouraged and welcomed, not scoffed. They can make their own connections between 9/11 and past atrocities. For instance, we have had discussions on the Patriot Act vis-a-vis the response to the Japanese post-Pearl Harbor.

For the record, I teach The Long March, Trail of Tears, Wounded Knee and subsequent Indian Relocation movements and the Dawes Act when we deal with the struggles between the native peoples and the 'new' Americans. In hindsight, were those positive moments in our history? No. Were they unavoidable given the universal belief by the U.S. citizenry that it was our Manifest Destiny to possess everything West of the Mississippi? Yes. We were the technological superior and we took that which we could not negotiate for. Such is the way of the world my friend. Equating the deaths of 300 (as per Wounded Knee) which comes during a period of continuing violence in the area and saved more lives in the end because it ENDED armed conflict in the region with an unprovoked attack (9/11) solely on civilians that claims 9x the lives is pretty ignorant.

OC

Unprovoked?

[neocisco]

Unprovoked?

Absolutely.

[OrangeCurtain]

Where did I say I didn't care. 9/11 was a horrible failure of our intelligence agencies and executive branch all around, it resulted in uneeded loss of life very close to my home, I care very much.

I was just saying that if you take politics out of it (as you suggest) then the 25,000 people who die of starvation each and every day, the victims of corrupt dictatorships, sweatshops, and completely amoral business cartels; the censored, the opressed, the poor; they deserve at least equal compassion. Yet these people never get 1/1000th as much coverage as the footage of two planes crashing in the buildings.

The OP was asking how much we care about 9/11, I'm just being honest. I figure more can be done to lessen tragedy by thinking globally.

Sorry for such a quick follow-up, but are you kidding? Blaming 9/11 on intelligence failures and the executive branch rather than the terrorists that planned the actions is just ridiculous. If you were mugged and beaten, would you blame society for not adequately training the mugger for a better job, or would you blame the guy who took your money and beat the crap out of you?

Thinking globally is wonderful. I wish we would have done ANYTHING to help stabilize much of Africa (Rwanda, Sudan, CAR, etc) over the past dozen years (during both Republican and Democratic administrations). The main difference is those areas did/do not harbor those willing and capable of doing the United States or her allies harm.

OC

[OrangeCurtain]

Unprovoked?

If you can find any evidence that anyone in the Twin Towers tried to kill anyone on those planes, I will give you a gold star.

That brand of terrorist wants to see every man, woman and child in the United States dead unless we bend to THEIR will. By their rules, we would have to abandon all Middle East interests, including our support of Isreal. At that point, I suppose their focus MIGHT shift away from killing you and me over to their desire for the extermination of the Jews...but maybe we should appease the terrorists the way we attempted to appease Hitler in the '30s. That worked out well for everyone huh?

Once again, "those who forget history are condemmed to repeat it. "

OC

[jmcc]

I think the idea that we haven't been at war with several portions of the middle east for decades now is naive, to put it mildly. Of course, we've never killed civilians over there. Nosir.

Pearl Harbor was unprovoked. We should have been expecting 9/11 for years.

[OrangeCurtain]

I tend to see a difference between targeting and killing civilians with purpose (9/11) and targeting the enemy and accidentally killing civilians in an existing war zone.

OC

[mykevermin]

If you can find any evidence that anyone in the Twin Towers tried to kill anyone on those planes, I will give you a gold star.

I would expect that anyone who claims to be a history teacher would also have the basic cognitive capacity to recognize the World Trade Center as a specific target, but more importantly as a metaphor for western-style capitalism (that being the same western-style capitalism that has fostered our involvement in the middle east since the installation of Israel).

No, I doubt there were any direct threats from WTC employees to al qaeda, but to make that argument is absurd.

Then again, I'd also expect a history teacher to be able to provide remarkably deeper insight than some intellectual catchphrase that's bandied about just as much as "Git-R-Done" is these days.

So much for my expectations.

[Moxio]

RIP 9/11 victims.

[slidecage]

[QUOTE=camoor]About 2800 people died in 9/11.

More then 25,000 people die of starvation every single day.


if your talking about overseas the sad thing is once a baby dies they will just have another one and another one and another one.

[OrangeCurtain]

I would expect that anyone who claims to be a history teacher would also have the basic cognitive capacity to recognize the World Trade Center as a specific target, but more importantly as a metaphor for western-style capitalism (that being the same western-style capitalism that has fostered our involvement in the middle east since the installation of Israel).

No, I doubt there were any direct threats from WTC employees to al qaeda, but to make that argument is absurd.

Then again, I'd also expect a history teacher to be able to provide remarkably deeper insight than some intellectual catchphrase that's bandied about just as much as "Git-R-Done" is these days.

So much for my expectations.

Perhaps you should read the thread before you take a response out of context. That would involve reading deeper, which as much as you want me to do...you might want to try it yourself.

I was responding to the position that the terrorists were provoked. The WTC was a symbol (not a metaphor...use correct terminology when you are calling out someone's intelligence)...so why not hit it at night to minimize civilian losses? Obviously the whole point of being a terrorist is to instill terror. Thus there was a need to inflict as high a body count as possible. The WTC was not purely a symbolic target. They hit it at rush hour when as many people as possible would be in and around the building.

If you want to compare intellects, I am all for it. This was a discussion without personal attack until you decided to wade into the deep water where I am guessing you don't belong.

In the interests of keeping the thread on-topic, this will be my last post. If you want to flame, PM me...don't hijack, though it looks like you support such tactics. The last thing I expected on a day designed to honor the dead is having to deal with terrorist apologists, and what appears to be some latent anti-Semitism. Sad.

OC

[neocisco]

I would expect that anyone who claims to be a history teacher would also have the basic cognitive capacity to recognize the World Trade Center as a specific target, but more importantly as a metaphor for western-style capitalism (that being the same western-style capitalism that has fostered our involvement in the middle east since the installation of Israel).

No, I doubt there were any direct threats from WTC employees to al qaeda, but to make that argument is absurd.

Then again, I'd also expect a history teacher to be able to provide remarkably deeper insight than some intellectual catchphrase that's bandied about just as much as "Git-R-Done" is these days.

So much for my expectations.

I'm assuming the "gold star" comment was tongue-in-cheek since he is a teacher. Just because the WTC is a "metaphorical" target doesn't make it any more acceptable. If they don't like our involvement in that region of the world they have every right to feel that way. By no rational reasoning whatsoever, though, are their tactics anything more than deplorable. These people (terrorists and the people who support them) are zealots. There is no reasoning w/a zealot. If you don't completely agree w/a zealot they would, by and large, rather see you dead. This means, unfortunately, a zealot can only be dealt w/by using force. It's not pretty and should be a last resort but, to be brutally honest, it is sometimes necessary.

I was afraid I was going to get drawn into this. :|

[Devin]

September 11th isn't one of those events that you can just forget. Everyone to this day remembers exactly where they were and what they felt when those planes collided with the Twin Towers. Everyone remembers the fear they felt after hearing false rumors of " is next" or "[insert city you live in] is next". It is four years later, and YES, I still care about 9/11. Scorch made a comment about how September 11th is not a holiday, but he really contradicted himself.

hol·i·day Audio pronunciation of "holiday" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hl-d)
n.

1. A day free from work that one may spend at leisure, especially a day on which custom or the law dictates a halting of general business activity to [i]commemorate or celebrate a particular event.

This is PRECISELY what September 11th was and IS today. September 11th, though the most tragic day in American history, should NEVER be forgotten.

[mykevermin]

(not a metaphor...use correct terminology when you are calling out someone's intelligence)...so why not hit it at night to minimize civilian losses? Obviously the whole point of being a terrorist is to instill terror. Thus there was a need to inflict as high a body count as possible. The WTC was not purely a symbolic target. They hit it at rush hour when as many people as possible would be in and around the building.

met·a·phor Audio pronunciation of "metaphor" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mt-fôr, -fr)
n.

1. A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in “a sea of troubles” or “All the world's a stage” (Shakespeare).
2. One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol: “Hollywood has always been an irresistible, prefabricated metaphor for the crass, the materialistic, the shallow, and the craven” (Neal Gabler).

For future reference.

If you want to compare intellects, I am all for it. This was a discussion without personal attack until you decided to wade into the deep water where I am guessing you don't belong.

In the interests of keeping the thread on-topic, this will be my last post. If you want to flame, PM me...don't hijack, though it looks like you support such tactics. The last thing I expected on a day designed to honor the dead is having to deal with terrorist apologists, and what appears to be some latent anti-Semitism. Sad.

OC

Again, your bait-and-switch tactics would not have earned you high marks in debate club. I was simply pointing out that your initial response to the argument that 9/11 was *not* provoked was a straw man argument, and one that I called you out on. Your followup was another strawman, which, if I read correctly, implies that I am a terrorist sympathizer and an anti-semite.

So, if I'm correct thus far, I have nothing to debate intellectually with you, since you're clearly leagues below me. I don't care how many historical anecdotes you can cite, I don't care how many bland aphorisms you can cite, you've proven yourself to be an incorrect prat thus far, so I don't see anything changing that. If you want to accuse me of being pro-terrorist, then you're putting up more and more straw men to cover the fact that you have nothing truly intellectual to stand on.

[YoshiFan1]

It seems like the news is still focused on the hurricane when a 2 - 3 years ago, all they showed on TV was 9-11 features (like memorials). I think people still care they just don't show it as much. What I am annoyed about is that, it's 4 years later and Bin Laden is still free and alive. It seems like everyone forgot about him.

[OrangeCurtain]

Again, your bait-and-switch tactics would not have earned you high marks in debate club. I was simply pointing out that your initial response to the argument that 9/11 was *not* provoked was a straw man argument, and one that I called you out on. Your followup was another strawman, which, if I read correctly, implies that I am a terrorist sympathizer and an anti-semite.


You pointed ALL of that out by saying "unprovoked?" Wow, you are much better when you say fewer words than many.

Don't think yourself so important. You didn't really debunk anything I said, rather you refer to things as 'straw men' while not explaining how they are such things.

My remarks about being a terrorist apologist were directed at those who sought to place blame on the intelligence community and the executive branch rather than the terrorists who planned and carried out the attacks. Don't get so defensive. Methinks you protest too much. Must have struck a nerve.

And the WTC was NOT a metaphor for western-style capitalism. It WAS western-style capitalism. The WTC always represented capitalism, so therefore it cannot be a metaphor. A metaphor involves two things that are ORDINARILY used to describe different things. If you want to rely on the secondary definition, despite the word contradicts the primary definition, then continue to enlighten all of us.

Keep treading water princess.

OC

[dreamvsps2]

bush doesnt care about 9/11

[Moxio]

bush doesnt care about 9/11

Or those negros. Oops I said the N word!

[stocker08]

didnt even know that was today until i saw this thread...........pathetic................

[crazytalkx]

It never affected me personally but I still remember, just as something significant in the country's history, not a life changing tragedy.

[zionoverfire]

And thus the Vs. forum kills another topic!

[CappyCobra]

http://www.kontraband.com/show/show.asp?ID=1627&NEXTID=0&PREVID=1629&DISPLAYORDER=20041006140828&CAT=mov
Was that message approved by George W. Bush? It sickens me they used a colored coded fear meter and a few catch phrases to keep the masses in line while they ass raped our civil liberties with the 'Patriot' Act. If you as me, 9/11 was all too convienent of an excuse to push a bill that seemed so be planned out all too detailed for such a short turnaround. :roll:

[Drtyazn]

I wasn't trying to turn this into a political matter. It always will be to a certain extent, but my intent was to see what the feelings and thoughts were four years down the road. Clinton had a chance to take out Bin Laden, but didn't. Who's to say that if he did, would it have prevented the attacks? Or would it have provoked something 100x's worse?

[U2K Tha Greate$t]

Do i care? yes
Do i care to a point? no

Meaning, things happen. Everything bad that happens is man's fault. Too bad people who aint did nothing have to get caught up in other people's foolishness. All those who died tho, we will see again, so the best thing to do is just move on and look for better days.

9/11 aint the only bad thing that happen in this world or land, it was just another normal day for me. Thus, this world is not normal, and there is no peace, * not yet anyway * ;)

Its best to forget that day, serious. Dont forget the people who died tho, but forget the event.

[camoor]

My remarks about being a terrorist apologist were directed at those who sought to place blame on the intelligence community and the executive branch rather than the terrorists who planned and carried out the attacks.

Get real. Of course the terrorists are to blame - hell, I bet there are a dozen fanatics willing to take their place right now, and if they act in such a way that proves this intent then they all deserve to be caught and tried in a court of law (or taken by force if circumstances dictate that)

However I argue that this tragedy could have been thwarted at many levels. I mean, a group of close-knit guys take flight classes and yet they aren't interested in learning how to land? The financing of the entire operation must have run into the millions, Bin Laden had financed attacks before - why wasn't the intelligence agency tracking this? And airline security was way too lax in the years leading up to the disaster.

One of the primary reasons I pay the government is to prevent massively destructive acts like this from happening. They did not do their job. That is why I will not excuse the intelligence agency of blame for not knowing of this incident (even though noone was fired for dropping the ball on 9/11) and then excuse their leadership at the executive branch. The buck has to stop somewhere.

[camoor]

if your talking about overseas the sad thing is once a baby dies they will just have another one and another one and another one.

Yes, it would be great if we could provide funding to teach those people about birth control.

However the only money that the American government will provide has to go to reducing overpopulation through abstinence education only. Now, even if we could give everyone free condoms I am not naive enough to think that the problem will dissappear, but every bit counts and we cannot continue to treat this issue with the same out-of-touch Victorian morality that characterizes our current approach.

[camoor]

For the record, I teach The Long March, Trail of Tears, Wounded Knee and subsequent Indian Relocation movements and the Dawes Act when we deal with the struggles between the native peoples and the 'new' Americans. In hindsight, were those positive moments in our history? No. Were they unavoidable given the universal belief by the U.S. citizenry that it was our Manifest Destiny to possess everything West of the Mississippi? Yes. We were the technological superior and we took that which we could not negotiate for. Such is the way of the world my friend. Equating the deaths of 300 (as per Wounded Knee) which comes during a period of continuing violence in the area and saved more lives in the end because it ENDED armed conflict in the region with an unprovoked attack (9/11) solely on civilians that claims 9x the lives is pretty ignorant.

OC

I would argue that these conflicts were avoidable. Noone forced Europeans to travel all the way to America in boats and then start moving west, giving Native Americans blankets with smallpox and handing out congressional medals of honor all around every time a few more were killed.

This part really floored me:

Equating the deaths of 300 (as per Wounded Knee) which comes during a period of continuing violence in the area and saved more lives in the end because it ENDED armed conflict in the region

I guess when US government sanctioned fanatics massacre unarmed natives then it's sanctioned in your mind - after all it stopped the conflict (because let's face it - if you're trying to take a people's land and stop them from fighting, it's much easier to shoot, starve, strip and expose them to the winter, after all a dead man can't fight back)

[guardian_owl]

Yep, I still remember where I was, I was heading to English Comp 2 class in the morning when someone said a plane had flown into the world trade center, I thought it was some kind of sick joke... On the other hand, the cynic in me has to ponder if a similar loss of life had come as a result of a terrorist attack in some midwest city like Topeka or Wichita, would we still even be talking about it now? After all, whenever people mention September 11th, they always talk about the WTC, no one ever mentions the striking of the pentagon or the 40 souls on flight 93 who resisted, putting an end to the 4th plane before it could strike another target in Washington, DC.

Another act of terror I will always remember is the dropping of a nuclear weapon on Hiroshima as my birthday is on August 6th.

[U2K Tha Greate$t]

I could care less about some damn towers, excuse me man-made buildings. My only concern on 9/11 was about the people who died, not to mention those in W.C. too. So as always, its not about the damn flag and towers and planes its really all about the people.

And i think alot of people needs to understand this. I also dont blame bush for it , i blame satan and mankind in general.

[Kayden]

Do you think they're going to edit Luisiana out of movies like they did with the twin towers? :roll:

I knew they day it happened it wasn't going to be a big deal after the fact. Yes, 3000 people did die, but as someone already pointed out, 10s of thousands die everyday.

As far as preparedness... all they've really assured is that you can't trim your fingernails on a flight.

Are we supposed to make a big deal over everyday people died? Bad shit happens. Live with it.