Iraqi Prisoner Abuse

[snotknocker]

What are your opinions on the recent reports of Iraqi prisoner abuse by the US military? Who's to blame?

[btantra]

My opinions? Well, what those soldiers did reflects the image of the commander-in-chief. It give me a bad image towards our commander. BUT, I don't blame it to anyone, it's human nature.

[TiKi2]

I sure our military is not doing anything as bad as what the iraqes would do to a US soilder if he was taken prisoner

[btantra]

I sure our military is not doing anything as bad as what the iraqes would do to a US soilder if he was taken prisoner

You might not read the news here. The comparison between which one is worse really depends on the person. Americans might think the Iraqi with Physical abuse is worse, but the Iraqi and moslem think Americans way of torture (degrading their pride as a human and religious being) are far worse than physical torture.

[CoffeeEdge]

I guess I'd better not even post my opinion. I'm extremly liberal (raised that way), and I'd just piss people that don't want to hear different opinions off. Sigh.

[Rodimus]

I sure our military is not doing anything as bad as what the iraqes would do to a US soilder if he was taken prisoner

That still doesn't justify what these few are doing. Rumsfeild also might be to blame, since he knew about this for months and didn't do anything about it. Plus he won't even apologize.

[eldad9]

BUT, I don't blame it to anyone, it's human nature.

Would that be a valid defense in a rape trial?

Being civilized means rejecting part of human nature; for a society to function, we must become better than what we are by nature.

[The_Continental]

"Under the terrible stresses of war, there are some in every country who commit atrocities. The difference is that Americans are upset, ashamed, or angry when their troops do it, while people in some Middle Eastern countries danced in the streets on 9/11 and when the bodies of dead American civilians were dragged through the streets in Iraq."
-Thomas Sowell

[suprsaiyanMAX]

Yeah I like Sen. Bob Ney's question of where this big world outrage was when those civilian contractors were killed. Yes, it was wrong and against the code of military justice I'm sure, yet it happens in all wars to be honest and like someone said earlier it's basically a part of human nature cruel though it may be.

[btantra]

Would that be a valid defense in a rape trial?

Being civilized means rejecting part of human nature; for a society to function, we must become better than what we are by nature.


I am not saying that it's a valid defense. I am just saying that I don't blame it on anyone since, you realize it or not and consciously or subconsciously, violence is part of human nature.

[Rodimus]

"Under the terrible stresses of war, there are some in every country who commit atrocities. The difference is that Americans are upset, ashamed, or angry when their troops do it, while people in some Middle Eastern countries danced in the streets on 9/11 and when the bodies of dead American civilians were dragged through the streets in Iraq."
-Thomas Sowell

The "dancing in the streets" at 9/11 was stock footage of something previous to 9/11. Most video you saw was edited their by the media, to make viewers feel "angry." After all, it's all about ratings.

I'm not saying their wern't people that were pleased with the events of 9/11, it's just that the images shown were not correct.

[evilmax17]

I'm gonna try to stay out of this thread as much as possible, but I WILL say that you're all idiots.

[CoffeeEdge]

Why?

[btantra]

I'm gonna try to stay out of this thread as much as possible, but I WILL say that you're all idiots.

If you don't have an opinion or afraid to say what you have in mind considering this is a liberal country with freedom of speech that might make you the idiot. We have opinions and I think our discussions are expressed as intelligently as possible. So, it's impossible that we are the idiots here.

[PittsburghAfterDark]

Nothing I've seen could be categorized as torture. Most of it is of the college fraternity hazing level. You know what I say? Tough shit Mr. . Don't forget these people were in jail for trying to kill or having killed Americans or even Iraqi or other foreign nationals. It's not like we pulled people out of shops, mosques or theaters took them to jail and started doing this to them.

Where was this outcry when a pair of sadistic sons were dipping people through plastic shredders? Where was this outcry when we uncovered rape rooms, mass graves and elctro torture devices? Where was the outcry when we were uncovering hundreds of thousands of people in mass graves? Did you see protests over the former government? Did you see mass retribution to former Saddam henchmen? Was their any outpouring of thanks to the U.S.?

The American left is so spineless and whimpy. This isn't a campaign issue. We're all embarassed by it. We all thought our troops would act more responsibly. We addressed it, we'll move on. This isn't a Mai Lai massacre or any TRUE war crime. The President found out about this on TV, it was a breakdown in communication from the bottom up and a big case of CYA. For anyone to say this is due to Bush just plain out doesn't understand how the military works and is so blinded by pure partisan hatred as to be irrational.

[doctorfaustus]

I'm gonna try to stay out of this thread as much as possible, but I WILL say that you're all idiots.

muahahahahahahha...
Preach, Brother, Preach!

[CoffeeEdge]

Of course, I'm staying out of this shit, too. But...whatever. I don't give a damn.

[Ikohn4ever]

I think we are supposed to be better than that. Even though they do the same things we are the country going in there trying to make things right. THis is not how we should have acted.

Oh yeah I am in a fraternity and we never made anyone get all naked and huddle together, that is just as AWESOMO would say LAME

[evilmax17]

Why?

Guess I'd better clarify my opinion before bowwing out gracefully.

Anybody who isn't willing to blame the people involved, because it's "human nature" to get prisioners naked, put dog leashes around their necks and women's panties on their heads, and to then pose superiorly behind them and take MULTIPLE photographs of it. Yes, that is human nature. :fridge:

It's the fault of every soldier / commander involved. People who tried to justify America going to war in Iraq to "set a better example for the world" or to "promote freedom" should realize that this has just completely destroyed the credibility of these reasons. If anything, this just proves to the world that America is no more civilized or less barbaric than the people that we're supposed to be freeing.

Human nature? I've never stripped somebody naked in an attempt to strip them of their humanity, have you?

[defender]

I'm gonna try to stay out of this thread as much as possible, but I WILL say that you're all idiots.

I second this notion. I am staying out of the arguments concerning politics here but what the hell...I do agree with EvilMax and..


If you don't have an opinion or afraid to say what you have in mind considering this is a liberal country with freedom of speech that might make you the idiot. We have opinions and I think our discussions are expressed as intelligently as possible. So, it's impossible that we are the idiots here.

I do believe he did state an opinion whether you think it is intelligent or not has no bearing on the fact that it is an opinion and just as protected under your free speech mumbo jumbo as what you say. He doesnt have to argue with you at all. When we vote we dont have to say why...

[CoffeeEdge]

I agree, evilmax. Now. I'm done with this damn thread.

[eldad9]

I am not saying that it's a valid defense. I am just saying that I don't blame it on anyone since, you realize it or not and consciously or subconsciously, violence is part of human nature.

So you wouldn't blame a rapist either? You know, part of human nature.

And human nature dictates violence against potential threats or rivals, not against a person completely incapable of causing you any harm.

[MrBadExample]

I guess I'd better not even post my opinion. I'm extremly liberal (raised that way), and I'd just piss people that don't want to hear different opinions off. Sigh.

The worst thing you can do is keep quiet. That's how groups like the neo-conservatives stay in power - by intimidating others into staying silent.

That said, this should not be a partisan issue. Atrocities like these should shock and appall every human being. They should not be tolerated by anyone on either side. The US is going to catch the brunt of the fallout here because we supposedly invaded Iraq to liberate them from a tyrant. Replacing their torture chambers with our own only makes us look like hypocrites.

And has anyone else been reading about the private companies over there who are being allowed to interrogate prisoners? Private companies of mercenaries who are operating outside of military law (and presumedly US law as well)... that is really scary.

[cag1000]

i saw the news last night and the iraqis were complaing in jail that they had cold water on them and itching powder. thats what happens when u go to jail. cold showers and anti lice powder. maybe if they were used to showers...

[CTLesq]

"Under the terrible stresses of war, there are some in every country who commit atrocities. The difference is that Americans are upset, ashamed, or angry when their troops do it, while people in some Middle Eastern countries danced in the streets on 9/11 and when the bodies of dead American civilians were dragged through the streets in Iraq."
-Thomas Sowell

The "dancing in the streets" at 9/11 was stock footage of something previous to 9/11. Most video you saw was edited their by the media, to make viewers feel "angry." After all, it's all about ratings.

I'm not saying their wern't people that were pleased with the events of 9/11, it's just that the images shown were not correct.

Really? Thats funny because I live in Manhattan and I watched the coverage from Newark of the dancing in the street.

It was real.

CTL

[MrBadExample]

i saw the news last night and the iraqis were complaing in jail that they had cold water on them and itching powder. thats what happens when u go to jail. cold showers and anti lice powder. maybe if they were used to showers...

That's a very enlightened view...

They are also complaining about being beaten and tortured physically and psychologically. Or at least the ones who haven't been beaten to death are still complaining.

[Wshakspear]

In one context, i find it funny. From the veiw of the us troops who are living in hell and are having friends blow up right in front of them, i would find this quite amusing. "Hell, if they were gonna blow themselves away anyways, why dont we make a nude human pyramid.

From another view though, that was the stupidist thing they could have done. Yes, its sucks over there, and im pretty sure just blowing their brains away would be really relaxing, but photographing the humiliation of the people (even the bad ones) that you are trying to free/save is freakin retarded.

so yes, i find it funny in that "Woman who is choking after squishing grapes and falling" kinda way, but i have to admit its THE dumbest thing they could have done.

[CTLesq]

Abuse and the Army

861 words
6 May 2004
The Wall Street Journal
A18
English
(Copyright (c) 2004, Dow Jones & Company, Inc.)

As President Bush and everyone else in America has said, any abuse of Iraqi prisoners is "abhorrent" and should be punished. Yet it seems to us that an overlooked story here, and ultimately the most telling, is the degree to which the U.S. military is investigating itself and holding people accountable.

This isn't a popular thought just now, with the media and politicians in one of their bonfire phases. Every accusation against U.S. troops is now getting front-page treatment. Like reporters at a free buffet, Members of Congress are swarming to the TV cameras to declare their outrage and demand someone's head, usually Donald Rumsfeld's. "System of abuse" and "cover-up" are being tossed about without any evidence of either. The goal seems to be less to punish the offenders than to grab one more reason to discredit the Iraq war.

For a sense of proportion, let's rehearse the timeline here. While some accusations of abuse go back to 2002 in Afghanistan, the incidents at Abu Ghraib that triggered this week's news occurred last autumn. They came to light through the chain of command in Iraq on January 13. An Army criminal probe began a day later. Two days after that, the U.S. Central Command disclosed in a press release that "an investigation has been initiated into reported incidents of detainee abuse at a Coalition Forces detention facility." By March 20, Brigadier-General Mark Kimmitt was able to announce in Baghdad that criminal charges had been brought against six soldiers in the probe.

By the end of January, meanwhile, Major-General Antonio Taguba was appointed to conduct his separate "administrative" probe of procedures at Abu Ghraib. It is his report, complete with its incriminating photos, that is the basis for the past week's news reports. The press didn't break this story based on months of sleuthing but was served up the results of the Army's own investigation.

By February, the Secretary of the Army had ordered the service's inspector general to assess the doctrine and training for detention operations within all of CentCom. A month after that, another probe began into Army Reserve training, especially military police and intelligence. Those reports will presumably also be leaked and reported on, or at least they will be if they reach negative conclusions.

This is a cover-up? Unlike the Catholic bishops, some corporate boards and the editors of the New York Times or USA Today, the military brass did not dismiss early allegations of bad behavior. Instead, it established reviews and procedures that have uncovered the very details that are now used by critics to indict the Pentagon "system." It has done so, moreover, amid a war against a deadly insurgency in which interrogation to gain good intelligence is critical to victory -- and to saving American lives.

None of this is to dismiss or rationalize the abuse reports. Accountability has to run beyond the soldiers immediately responsible and up the Army and intelligence chains of command. The Abu Ghraib procedures were clearly inadequate to a situation in which interrogators were given so much control over the fates of individual prisoners. Especially in a war on terror that will be long and require effective interrogation, this is unacceptable.

Reprimands have already been issued and careers ended, but courts martial can't be ruled out. President Bush's explanation to Arab media yesterday may help our public image, especially given that their own governments rarely admit mistakes. But the best way to impress Iraqis about U.S. purposes is to show that Americans guilty of abuse are being punished, and with more than letters of reprimand.

To start impugning the entire Army and Pentagon, however, is both wrong and dangerous. The majority of American soldiers are professional, disciplined and are risking their lives to win a war. (Note to those who want to revive the draft: If this could happen in today's highly trained volunteer force, imagine the risks in Senator Chuck Hagel's Army of conscripts.)

Another bizarre notion is that Abu Ghraib happened because the Pentagon decided to hold "enemy combatants" under other than "prisoner of war" status. Those detainees are still given Geneva Convention treatment, as well as visits by the Red Cross. The Pentagon has avoided formal Geneva Convention status because it doesn't want al Qaeda and Taliban prisoners to be able to hide behind "name, rank and serial number." As terrorists who attacked civilians and didn't wear a uniform, they also don't deserve the privileges of real soldiers. In any case, the soldiers who posed in those Abu Ghraib photos were clearly too thick to know any of this.

The military has its faults and bad actors, but over the decades it has shown itself to be one of America's most accountable institutions. The Abu Ghraib episode is another test of its fortitude. But the political class would do well to heed Democratic Senator Joe Lieberman, who said yesterday that "This immoral behavior in no way eliminates the justice of our cause in Iraq."

[evilmax17]

so yes, i find it funny in that "Woman who is choking after squishing grapes and falling" kinda way

I am SO working that into everyday conversation!

[PsyClerk]

Guess I'd better clarify my opinion before bowwing out gracefully.

Yeah, wouldn't want to be a hypocrite. I remember posting something similar on another thread, then being called to task by none other than yourself for not clarifying my opinion and defending it.


If anything, this just proves to the world that America is no more civilized or less barbaric than the people that we're supposed to be freeing.

As was said before, when we found Americans doing this, we were outraged. I haven't seen a single American voice claim that this was good or the prisoners deserved it.

If we saw the same situation reversed, there would be no outrage on the part of the Iraqi people or any Muslims. When a Muslim nation/group does things like that, it is almost expected. When US forces do it, it is jumped on vengefully (and rightfully so). The US is held to a higher standard, and the handling of the situation proves it.

[Hereticked]

Most Arabs and Muslims would consider being shot in the face a better fate than this :

http://www.drudgereport.com/irr.jpg

http://www.drudgereport.com/irr1.jpg

Let alone having their pictures taken during these acts and having them distributed around the world.

This administration fooled people into believing this invasion had anything to do with WMD's and it became evident very quickly what a load of BS that was.

Then, suddenly, the war was about liberation and freeing Iraq from the rape rooms and torture chambers. And now, after claiming the moral high ground, and rushing into a country to tell them how they should setup their government, we've been caught pulling this crap.

Fighting terrorism? We are creating future terrorism.

This war is a joke, and so is anyone who supports it.

[suprsaiyanMAX]

It's the fault of every soldier / commander involved. People who tried to justify America going to war in Iraq to "set a better example for the world" or to "promote freedom" should realize that this has just completely destroyed the credibility of these reasons. If anything, this just proves to the world that America is no more civilized or less barbaric than the people that we're supposed to be freeing.

Human nature? I've never stripped somebody naked in an attempt to strip them of their humanity, have you?

I was referring to torture and war crimes happening during war. These men and women have been in the most violent place in the world for probably about a year, study some psychology and you'll see what the end result of that is. Not everyone does it, I haven't, you haven't. Yet, wait a minute niether has been in a bloody war for this length of time.That's not to say either of us would either. Clearly not every American soldier has doen this. It's just the matter of a few ruining the group. Though the exact occerances of what happened may change, this is something has happened before and happens even during peace time. Corrupt police officers do the same thing to their prisonsors on rare occasions. It happens in greek housing, sports teams, etc. So, by me saying it's human nature I did not mena everyone would do it, just that it is a part of the human psyche for some people.

As for the blame, I don't blame everyone. I don't blame Bush, or Rice. Rumsfield can take some heat for at least not letting people know earlier and maybe curbbing it. Yet not every commander probably knew. And I certianly don't blame every soldier over there involved in the war. Take the poor general who just took over the prison. He had to stand in front of all the international press and apoligize for someone else's foul up. I know I would hate to do that. So, I can't find blame in people like him.

[CTLesq]

This administration fooled people into believing this invasion had anything to do with WMD's and it became evident very quickly what a load of BS that was.

Then, suddenly, the war was about liberation and freeing Iraq from the rape rooms and torture chambers. And now, after claiming the moral high ground, and rushing into a country to tell them how they should setup their government, we've been caught pulling this crap.

Fighting terrorism? We are creating future terrorism.

This war is a joke, and so is anyone who supports it.

And the drivel begins.....

CTL

[Wshakspear]

She got a new puppy!!

[Hereticked]

And the drivel begins.....

CTL

No, the drivel began about 3 posts above mine.

[jeugder]

Does anyone else here think that something about this whole abuse thing just doesn't jive?? I mean, if you were going to torture and humiliate these prisoners, why would you take pictures to incriminate yourselves?? I'm not saying it didn't or doesn't happen, I just think the story seems a little fishy.

Whether its true or not, it is a terrible thing to do. HOWEVER, we must keep in mind these are prisoners, criminals, murderers, whatever...and this pales in comparison to killing innocent civilian contractors and dragging their bodies through the streets and hanging them from bridges.

Oh yeah, one other thing...no one deserves any apologies from our military leaders whatsoever. President Bush has said that the proper punishment will be given to those found to have committed these abuses (if any). That should be plenty. He has indicated that this sort of behavior will not be tolerated. Anyone who thinks an apology is in order is kidding themselves. This isn't first grade...

[snotknocker]

I anticipated mixed reply's to my questions when I created this thread. So
far opinions posted are very interesting. Please try to refrain from turning this thread into an abusive flame war. I have mixed feelings on this issue which I will elaborate on later. I'm sure others do as well. I think seeing other opinions will help me and others deal with the way we feel about this situation. Let's for once try and keep this civil.

Thanks

[Hereticked]

Anyone who thinks an apology is in order is kidding themselves. This isn't first grade...


Well I guess that makes sense..... since Bush is a 1rst grader mentally.


www.drudgereport.com

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040506/D82D86T80.html


Whoops!

[dtcarson]

I think in part, the guards' supevisors are, for not keeping a closer eye on their soldiers, and for having people who aren't trained in that, running the prisons.
If this has been going on, and Rumsfeld or anyone else has been aware and not done anything, that certainly is wrong.
Ultimately, however, it's the fault of the people in the photos. I think a lot of it has to do with 'young' people being in positions of power, in an unfriendly environment, and some people do abuse their authority, especially when they're not used to it [see the movie Das Experiment, or read about the Stanford Prison Experiment, for more info]. I can see in part *how* it happened, but I certainly don't condone it. Even absent specific instructions, they should have known what shouldn't be done. I don't need a specific instruction in my driver's manual to say 'Don't run over that old lady.' I know not to do it.
That said, I do think what Saddam did to his own people was much worse--first, he was the 'leader' of his country, these are just soldiers, and secondly, I think torture, rape, and murder are much worse than humiliation. If the Iraqis and/or Muslims think humiliation is worse than torture/death/rape, that's one other difference between us. Not saying one is better than the other, but we have different priorities.
I don't know if an apology from the higherups, Rumsfeld/Bush etc, is required here. To me, 'sorry' implies 'forgive me.' Some things don't deserve forgiveness. I'm not a big fan of mass apologies anyway--talk is cheap. Don't apologize, do something about it. I personally would rather someone say 'Hey, that shouldn't have happened, we don't condone that, those who did it will be severely punished' rather than 'Sorry man.' Especially nowadays when everyone apologizes for everything, it means a lot less than it used to. And all too often it's said with no emotion behind it, but just because that's all it takes to walk off scot free.
Sorry I wrecked your car. Screw that, pay to fix it!
Sorry I cheated on you. Forget that, try to save our relationship!
Sorry I cheated on the test. Too late, you fail, work harder next time.

[CTLesq]

I anticipated mixed reply's to my questions when I created this thread. So
far opinions posted are very interesting. Please try to refrain from turning this thread into an abusive flame war. I have mixed feelings on this issue which I will elaborate on later. I'm sure others do as well. I think seeing other opinions will help me and others deal with the way we feel about this situation. Let's for once try and keep this civil.

Thanks

And it shouldn't degenerate into one.

Thier actions were completely stupid.

But the response of some in the media, like some on this forum is to make this an issue to discredit the war.

That is becoming the bigger issue.

CTL

[Hereticked]

But the response of some in the media, like some on this forum is to make this an issue to discredit the war.

That is becoming the bigger issue.

CTL


Since the war had no real justification to begin with, I have no need to discredit it.

Think of it more as an "I told you so".

[alongx]

Anyone who thinks an apology is in order is kidding themselves. This isn't first grade...


Well I guess that makes sense..... since Bush is a 1rst grader mentally.


www.drudgereport.com

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040506/D82D86T80.html


Whoops!

Good response.

I'm personally appalled by these inhumane actions, but I'll try to stay away from this. I hear enough political debate everywhere else...

[CTLesq]

But the response of some in the media, like some on this forum is to make this an issue to discredit the war.

That is becoming the bigger issue.

CTL


Since the war had no real justification to begin with, I have no need to discredit it.

Think of it more as an "I told you so".

We have been over this before. You have no answer for the legal justification so there is no reason to review it again.

CTL

[jshorr]

There is no excuse for what happened and the people involved should and will be punished. It's stupid, and a disgrace to America. I do think people with Anti-American sentiment are making too big a deal of it (although it is a big deal). It's the result of bias and ignorance which is never good. Still, I don't think it's as bad as being shot in the face, even if a terrorist willing to die would prefer that.

I don't think it's safe to say every person in the prison is a criminal or a murderer. I am not an expert on the matter but wouldn't a lot of people being detained just be prisoners of war, members of the millitary of the old regime? They deserved to be treated like any other prisoner of war. I agree with the above poster that this is being made too political.

[PittsburghAfterDark]

But the response of some in the media, like some on this forum is to make this an issue to discredit the war.


That's all this is. 100% that's all this is. There is no concern for Iraqi's with the critics of this. These are the same people that would have been happier if we stayed home and let Saddam stay in power as he had for decades. These are the same people that support the Sudan being on the UN Council of Human Rghts. The same people that think Kim Jong Il could fit the "Anyone but Bush." bumper sticker. These are the same people that don't care that John Kerry's annonymous "foreign leaders" could be socialists, communists, terrorist or Islamic fascists, it's an endorsement and that's all that counts.

Unless you're from the Red Cross, Red Crescent, Amnesty International or other groups that were complaining as vehemently about the treatment of prisoners in 2002 as you are in 2004 you know you're making a big deal out of this precisely because it is only political. To say otherwise in intellectually dsihonest but that's what you need to be to be a member of the ABB (Anybody but Bush.) crowd.

[Hereticked]

We have been over this before. You have no answer for the legal justification so there is no reason to review it again.

CTL

Wrong.

We have no legal justification. We moved unilaterally, without the sanction of the UN.

YOU have no answer for that other than to wave your hand dismissively like Bill O'Reilly or any other number of conservative spinners.

You are the one who ASSUMES that if there was such a clear and present danger to the world and we had ACTUAL PROOF (unlike the gobs of NOTHING that Collin Powell presented at the UN) that the UN wouldn't act, and therefore we have to "go it alone" with our corporate buddies.

It doesn't stand up to scrutiny I'm afraid.

[jmcc]

Question to someone who's more familiar with the material: were these all soldiers that did this or were there "contractors" that seem to pop up a lot in this war's stories involved also?

edit: question actually a question now.

[Vampire Hunter D]

I dont have time to read all the posts but my view is its not suprising cause this of course has happend in just about every war. I dont see the big deal with it.

[MrBadExample]

[quote]Unless you're from the Red Cross, Red Crescent, Amnesty International or other groups that were complaining as vehemently about the treatment of prisoners in 2002 as you are in 2004 you know you're making a big deal out of this precisely because it is only political. To say otherwise in intellectually dsihonest but that's what you need to be to be a member of the ABB (Anybody but Bush.) crowd.

This is the first proof those of us without first-hand knowledge of the prisons have had. So of course there are more people outraged now especially when we find out that the administration knew about these abuses as far back as January.

The only reason we are finding this out now is because a soldier who was disturbed by these atrocities leaked the photos. Since the first Gulf War the Pentagon has kept an extremely tight lid on all reporting coming from a military campaign.

[Hereticked]

These are the same people that would have been happier if we stayed home and let Saddam stay in power as he had for decades.

I would've been happier if we hadn't help put Saddam in power to begin with. Than maybe we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.

Oh, you forgot about that didn't you?

http://www.bushflash.com/thanks.html


To say otherwise in intellectually dishonest but that's what you need to be to be a member of the ABB (Anybody but Bush.) crowd.

I can only laugh at someone who supports this war, and then calls me intellectually dishonest.

Study some history.

[MrBadExample]

Question to someone who's more familiar with the material: were these all soldiers that did this or were there "contractors" that seem to pop up a lot in this war's stories involved also?

edit: question actually a question now.

I know that in the pictures featuring the young woman, she is in the army. I have read allegations about private contractors handling interrogations but I don't know if they have been accused of abuse. Legally I don't know what we could do to them if they were aside from kicking them out of Iraq.

[Hereticked]

I know that in the pictures featuring the young woman, she is in the army. I have read allegations about private contractors handling interrogations but I don't know if they have been accused of abuse. Legally I don't know what we could do to them if they were aside from kicking them out of Iraq.


Here's another one that'll knock your socks off.....

How is Halliburton allowed over there to begin with? Why were they given no-bid contracts? If the conservatives are so impressed with competition, why aren't they competing?


Even better :

If Iraqi oil is owned collectively by the Iraqi people, and should be used to pay for their reconstruction, why is American oil not collectively owned by the American people?

[CTLesq]

These are the same people that would have been happier if we stayed home and let Saddam stay in power as he had for decades.

I would've been happier if we hadn't help put Saddam in power to begin with. Than maybe we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.

Oh, you forgot about that didn't you?

http://www.bushflash.com/thanks.html.

One has nothing to do with the other.

And again no way to get around the legal justiifcation of the war you are reduced to that piece of crap website? Perhaps if I had as bad facts as you I would have to do the same as well.

So amuse us, you have something like 20 odd posts? How many of them have been spend decrying the war? 12 or 13?

People like you will only want to stop terrorism 4 minutes before it tries to kill you. That is no longer acceptable.

To say otherwise in intellectually dishonest but that's what you need to be to be a member of the ABB (Anybody but Bush.) crowd.

I can only laugh at someone who supports this war, and then calls me intellectually dishonest.

Study some history.[/quote]

You have shown utter ignorance as to the legal justification for the war other than to say you oppose it.

You are in no position to lecture anyone.

CTL

[MisterRaven]

I'm gonna try to stay out of this thread as much as possible, but I WILL say that you're all idiots.

I concur.

[PsyClerk]

We have no legal justification. We moved unitlaterally, without the sanction of the UN.

The same UN with the corrupt 'Food for Oil' program? The same UN that can't agree to take action on pretty much anything? The same UN that can only support/condemn actions in hindsight? The same UN that since the late 80s has allowed itself to become more and more irrelevant?

Just look at Rwanda right now. Yes, the UN condemned the ethnic cleansing that took place there a decade ago. What's happening now? Evidence shows more ethnic cleansing. What is the UN doing? Exactly what it did last time: nothing.

Do NOT use the UN as a measuring stick for anything other than as an example of the way things should not work. It is time to scrap the UN a la League of Nations style and start anew.


YOU have no answer for that other than to wave your hand dismissively like Bill O'Reilly or any other number of conservative spinners.

I find it funny when people claim O'Reilly spins things for the right. It shows you don't watch him at all. I don't watch him much myself (or any TV for that matter), but I can tell you he takes everyone to task, regardless of affiliation. I would call him a right-leaning moderate, but I guess that makes him appear to be a reactionary to the far left.


You are the one who ASSUMES that if there was such a clear and present danger to the world and we had ACTUAL PROOF (unlike the gobs of NOTHING that Collin Powell presented at the UN) that the UN wouldn't act, and therefore we have to "go it alone" with our corporate buddies.

The UN wouldn't act until it was very very far along, if at all. See above.

[CTLesq]

Question to someone who's more familiar with the material: were these all soldiers that did this or were there "contractors" that seem to pop up a lot in this war's stories involved also?

edit: question actually a question now.

I know that in the pictures featuring the young woman, she is in the army. I have read allegations about private contractors handling interrogations but I don't know if they have been accused of abuse. Legally I don't know what we could do to them if they were aside from kicking them out of Iraq.

They are looking into both groups.

The question would be what law to apply to them?

They aren't military so no UCMJ jurisdiction. They are civillian so Iraqi law should apply to them, unless they are covered under a SODA (statute of Forces Agreement) but that should put them under either UCMJ or US criminal law.

CTL

[MaxBiaggi3]

The only reason we are finding this out now is because a soldier who was disturbed by these atrocities leaked the photos.

Well now, we can't have that. It's an election year, after all. You as an American citizen are also not allowed to see photos of the coffins of deceased U.S. soldiers either because it might prejudice you against the war effort in Iraq. Don't think about any of the costs of this armed disaster (human, financial or otherwise) until after November's election, so you can blindly vote for Bush and feel good about it.

[PittsburghAfterDark]

It's nut jobs like Hereticked that give me full and complete faith that Bush will be in office 4 more years. You are so close to the mainstream beliefs of the Democratic party that we should put you on display for undecideds to view and listen to.

Since the terms of a cease fire mean nothing to you..... I guess it was an unprovoked war.

Other things Hereticked may believe:

We need a higher minimum wage, this will ensure a good lifestyle for American workers and slow outsourcing of jobs to foreign countries.

Corporate profits are pure evil, dammit, why is my 401k in the tanks, why did my bonus shrink, how am I going to be able to afford a new house?

SUV's are ruining the world that's why I don't own one, but my family does.

I'm not paying $10 more for this video game than I need to, oh wait, you're going to raise gasoline taxes $600 a year to help lessen our dependence on foreign oil? Okay, you have my vote!

Anybody but Bush! Kerry and Jong Il in '04!

I'm very happy with my family doctor and am very fortunate to have a good health plan yet I can't help but think we'd be better off if we nationalized 1/7th of the American economy and everyone had mediocre health care.

The U.S. is the greatest threat to world peace. We should make Islam our national religion so those people don't hate us anymore, damn, are we insensitive.

Nut jobs own guns and think the Constitution should be followed. Only the enlightened amongst us know that the good of the unproductive few should be carried on the backs of the productive many. It's best that you don't question how much of your money we take.

[CTLesq]

We have been over this before. You have no answer for the legal justification so there is no reason to review it again.

CTL

Wrong.

We have no legal justification. We moved unilaterally, without the sanction of the UN.

YOU have no answer for that other than to wave your hand dismissively like Bill O'Reilly or any other number of conservative spinners.

You are the one who ASSUMES that if there was such a clear and present danger to the world and we had ACTUAL PROOF (unlike the gobs of NOTHING that Collin Powell presented at the UN) that the UN wouldn't act, and therefore we have to "go it alone" with our corporate buddies.

It doesn't stand up to scrutiny I'm afraid.

Not at all. I disposed of you and your false argument in the prior thread. You can go look it up on the forum.

Start with UN Res 687 just to refresh your memory.

[Hereticked]

One has nothing to do with the other.

Us putting Saddam in power has nothing to do with the events that have led up to Gulf Wars 1 and 2?

And you're calling me ignorant?

WOW.

Just...... wow.


You have shown utter ignorance as to the legal justification for the war other than to say you oppose it.

You are in no position to lecture anyone.CTL

All I've heard from you is a lot of allegations, cut and pastes from newspapers and websites that I could easily find as questionable as you find my sources, and most of all..... a lot of posturing. Something conservatives have become experts at because it's all they really got.

Posture all you want, you won't convince anyone who's truly open minded that what I'm posting has no merit.

Anyone who's going to just nod their nod and say "what a liberal!" is already a brain-washed, koolaid drinking zombie and I really don't care what they think.

[eldad9]

If you don't have an opinion or afraid to say what you have in mind considering this is a liberal country with freedom of speech...

Sure, just make sure you don't stray out of the designated free speech zone.

[littlemonkey]

I love how the right wing corporate controlled media has chosen to label these actions "abuse".
Seems when Saddam was busy "abusing" his own people this same media didn't have any problem calling it "torture".

littlemonkey

[CTLesq]

One has nothing to do with the other.

Us putting Saddam in power has nothing to do with the events that have led up to Gulf Wars 1 and 2?

And you're calling me ignorant?

WOW.

Just...... wow.

Oh thats right 50 years ago we put him in power so we could have 2 wars saved up for the 1990's and 2002.

How silly of me.

Again, the two have nothing to do with one another.


You have shown utter ignorance as to the legal justification for the war other than to say you oppose it.

You are in no position to lecture anyone.CTL

All I've heard from you is a lot of allegations, cut and pastes from newspapers and websites that I could easily find as questionable as you find my sources, and most of all..... a lot of posturing. Something conservatives have become experts at because it's all they really got.

Posture all you want, you won't convince anyone who's truly open minded that what I'm posting has no merit.

Anyone who's going to just nod their nod and say "what a liberal!" is already a brain-washed, koolaid drinking zombie and I really don't care what they think.

Again, you have posted what on this forum? 22-23 times? How many times to denounce the war?

Go march in the East Village and be greatful some of us are willing to stand up to defend YOUR freedom.

CTL

[PsyClerk]

Well now, we can't have that. It's an election year, after all. You as an American citizen are also not allowed to see photos of the coffins of deceased U.S. soldiers either because it might prejudice you against the war effort in Iraq. Don't think about any of the costs of this armed disaster (human, financial or otherwise) until after November's election, so you can blindly vote for Bush and feel good about it.

You are, however, entitled to see photos of flag draped coffins containing the remains of the seven astronauts from the Columbia, and be told that they are Iraq war dead.

/fair and balanced
//Bush blew up the space shuttle, dontcha know

[Hereticked]

Not at all. I disposed of you and your false argument in the prior thread. You can go look it up on the forum.

Start with UN Res 687 just to refresh your memory.

You never even responded to my last post in the "Who would vote for Bush?" thread, not to mention that I don't think I even brought up the UN in that thread.

I suggest YOU go back and read the thread, because you're either thinking of someone else, or you're just plain lying.

[Hereticked]

Go march in the East Village and be greatful some of us are willing to stand up to defend YOUR freedom.

CTL

You aren't doing anything for my freedom.

I'll be glad to go march, that's actual dissent and political activism, the most patriotic thing one can do.


Why don't YOU go over to Iraq and get killed for someones elses political and financial ambitions? I doubt you'll be so smug then. Nor will you be a "hero".

You'll just be CHUMPED, you know.... like you are now, only DEAD.

[jmcc]

//Bush blew up the space shuttle, dontcha know

Well, yeah. As a member of an oil family he won't stand for alternative fuel conveyances horning in on his action.

[CTLesq]

Not at all. I disposed of you and your false argument in the prior thread. You can go look it up on the forum.

Start with UN Res 687 just to refresh your memory.

You never even responded to my last post in the "Who would vote for Bush?" thread, not to mention that I don't think I even brought up the UN in that thread.

I suggest YOU go back and read the thread, because you're either thinking of someone else, or you're just plain lying.

pwned

http://cheapassgamer.com/forum/posting.php?mode=quote&p=145498

If by "spine" you mean invading other countries willy-nilly, then you're right.

Yeah:

12 years of sanction;

17 UN Sec Resolutions

a cease-fire for a war that never concluded

9/11

continuos firing at American fighters patrolling Iraq

an unprecedented attempt to bring the degenerate UN along

Yeah Bush just pulled that invasion out of the air.

What an astute "observation".

CTL

[PsyClerk]

So THERE.

[CTLesq]

Go march in the East Village and be greatful some of us are willing to stand up to defend YOUR freedom.

CTL

You aren't doing anything for my freedom.

I'll be glad to go march, that's actual dissent and political activism, the most patriotic thing one can do.


Why don't YOU go over to Iraq and get killed for someones elses political and financial ambitions? I doubt you'll be so smug then. Nor will you be a "hero".

You'll just be CHUMPED, you know.... like you are now, only DEAD.

Should my Army Unit be activated I will go.

Your other comments are childish...and not unexpected.

CTL

[Hereticked]

If by "spine" you mean invading other countries willy-nilly, then you're right.



Whoops...... that was "ICruise"

Not me........ Hereticked.

You see the difference right?

Hereticked........ ICruise.......


Good job.


You can go do this now :

http://www.p0stwh0res.com/images/crying_baby.gif

[dtcarson]

'Right wing corporate media?' Which one, National Review, Fox News, or Rush Limbaugh? And two out three of those are opinion/commentators, and the third isn't purely news. And virtually every other US 'mainstream' outlet is at least moderate, to slightly-left-of-Karl-Marx.
And while the acts were certainly wrong, there is a slight difference between taking naked pictures of someone, and feeding them into wood chippers or raping their spouse in front of them. And yes, Muslims/Iraqis may think of humiliation as 'torture', most Americans wouldnt, and the news sources are reporting to an American audience.
Regardless of the presence of WMD, [which I believe Iraq has or had], etc, I don't think the actions of a limited few people abusing a temporary position of power invalidates or negates what has changed for the better in Iraq over the last 1-2 years. To say 'I told you so' about this instance, and use that as an after-the-fact case against the war, is somewhat irrelevant. It's like saying to someone 'I told you you shouldn't have bought a car' after they get in a wreck.

[MrBadExample]

To the people here who support the war:

Do these photos not give you any pause? Don't you think now that any of are troops who get capturedare going to be treated worse in retaliation?

BTW, Bush has conveniently deemed the Iraqis captured as "enemy combatants" and not "prisoners of war" so I'm not sure how much of the Geneva Convention applies to them. He's justifying this because they aren't a part of an organized army. Right or wrong, it seems like a sketchy excuse to get around the law. Kinda Clintonian if you ask me...

[PsyClerk]

Do these photos not give you any pause? Don't you think now that any of are troops who get capturedare going to be treated worse in retaliation?

Worse than being executed? How does that happen again?

[CTLesq]

If by "spine" you mean invading other countries willy-nilly, then you're right.



Whoops...... that was "ICruise"

Not me........ Hereticked.

You see the difference right?

Hereticked........ ICruise.......


Good job.


0wN3d.

It was your thread. That was and is the issue.

Recall:

"You never even responded to my last post in the "Who would vote for Bush?" thread, not to mention that I don't think I even brought up the UN in that thread.

I suggest YOU go back and read the thread, because you're either thinking of someone else, or you're just plain lying."

Or did you black out and never read my UN Claims?


CTL

[CTLesq]

To the people here who support the war:

Do these photos not give you any pause? Don't you think now that any of are troops who get capturedare going to be treated worse in retaliation?

BTW, Bush has conveniently deemed the Iraqis captured as "enemy combatants" and not "prisoners of war" so I'm not sure how much of the Geneva Convention applies to them. He's justifying this because they aren't a part of an organized army. Right or wrong, it seems like a sketchy excuse to get around the law. Kinda Clintonian if you ask me...

Yes, it does give me pause. The pictures show treatment that is not acceptable.

And as I have also stated these pictures are being used to undermine the justification for the war.

There is a legal difference between the two descriptions. Essentially to be a POW you have to be a lawful enemy combatant - there are 4 criteria under the GC. If you are termed an enemy combatant you have not met the criteria of the GC.

It is legitimate and it is legal. This is not an excuse to get around the law.

CTL

[Hereticked]

It was your thread. That was and is the issue.
CTL

Uh, no...... it wasn't "my" thread, I didn't start it.


You said I said something that I didn't.

You said you "disposed of my argument" when you didn't even respond to my last post in that thread.

You have now been proved wrong, and like a typical conservative/ayn rand cultist/neo-con know-it-all cry baby (who really doesn't know a damn thing).... you can't admit it.

And then you call me childish to boot.


First class dude. First class.

[PittsburghAfterDark]

And again Hereticked frames himself as the poster child for the reasonable left :fridge:

[Hereticked]

And again Hereticked frames himself as the poster child for the reasonable left

Being reasonable isn't enough anymore. Certainly not enough to return sanity to this country.

If you want to call the left wimps, go ahead.


Just try not to be too surprised or embarrased when they decide to stop being wimps and unload on you.


The wheel turns.

[MrBadExample]

Here is part of an editorial from the Washington Post:

Mr. Rumsfeld's Responsibility

THE HORRIFIC abuses by American interrogators and guards at the Abu
Ghraib prison and at other facilities maintained by the U.S. military in
Iraq and Afghanistan can be traced, in part, to policy decisions and
public statements of Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld. Beginning
more than two years ago, Mr. Rumsfeld decided to overturn decades of
previous practice by the U.S. military in its handling of detainees in
foreign countries. His Pentagon ruled that the United States would no
longer be bound by the Geneva Conventions; that Army regulations on the
interrogation of prisoners would not be observed; and that many detainees
would be held incommunicado and without any independent mechanism of
review. Abuses will take place in any prison system. But Mr. Rumsfeld's
decisions helped create a lawless regime in which prisoners in both Iraq
and Afghanistan have been humiliated, beaten, tortured and murdered --
and in which, until recently, no one has been held accountable.

The lawlessness began in January 2002 when Mr. Rumsfeld publicly
declared that hundreds of people detained by U.S. and allied forces in
Afghanistan "do not have any rights" under the Geneva Conventions. That was
not the case: At a minimum, all those arrested in the war zone were
entitled under the conventions to a formal hearing to determine whether
they were prisoners of war or unlawful combatants. No such hearings were
held, but then Mr. Rumsfeld made clear that U.S. observance of the
convention was now optional. Prisoners, he said, would be treated "for the
most part" in "a manner that is reasonably consistent" with the
conventions -- which, the secretary breezily suggested, was outdated.


This is the link for the whole article.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5840-2004May5.html

[EggViper]

this is about the worst thing i've seen in the news for a long time, infact i remember first watching those pictures on cnn really shocked me, and the last time that happened was 9/11. it doesn't matter how their treating us, this is just plain wrong. Imagine what kind of an opinion this is forming to people around the world. frankly i can't bilieve people would do things like that, and when the iraqis see these pics their going to treat our prisoners even worse.

[PsyClerk]

reasonable left

Thanks, this gives me something else to put on my list along with:

resident alien
exact estimate
found missing
definite maybe
working vacation
genuine imitation

[PittsburghAfterDark]

If you want to call the left wimps, go ahead.

Just try not to be too surprised or embarrased when they decide to stop being wimps and unload on you.

When I see a group of leftists coming down the street out of control and angry with their placards, appropriately colored protest ribbons, loud 60's type chants I'll be sure to be afraid. When they're armed with slogans and want to overthrow the government or do harm to political opposition I'll be here with an G3A3 and 12 gaugue Remington Magnum Marine to meet their fearsome attack of hacky sacks and ultimate frisbees. When they come out into the woods and the heartland of America reeking of poutchili, cannibis and week old body odor they'll be taken care of.

The left is full of whimps. There are no guts to take action in their ranks. If they are so angry, so vitriolic where they'd contemplate revolution let them do it. I'd pay to see it, I'm not going to be embarassed but I would be surprised. The angry left hides behind slogans, bumper stickers and mesage board ID's. They're cowards of the worst kind.

[jmcc]

If you want to call the left wimps, go ahead.

Just try not to be too surprised or embarrased when they decide to stop being wimps and unload on you.

When I see a group of leftists coming down the street out of control and angry with their placards, appropriately colored protest ribbons, loud 60's type chants I'll be sure to be afraid. When they're armed with slogans and want to overthrow the government or do harm to political opposition I'll be here with an G3A3 and 12 gaugue Remington Magnum Marine to meet their fearsome attack of hacky sacks and ultimate frisbees. When they come out into the woods and the heartland of America reeking of poutchili, cannibis and week old body odor they'll be taken care of.

The left is full of whimps. There are no guts to take action in their ranks. If they are so angry, so vitriolic where they'd contemplate revolution let them do it. I'd pay to see it, I'm not going to be embarassed but I would be surprised. The angry left hides behind slogans, bumper stickers and mesage board ID's. They're cowards of the worst kind.

Is it really that bad to try to accomplish something without the use of physical force?

[Hereticked]

The angry left hides behind slogans, bumper stickers and mesage board ID's. They're cowards of the worst kind.

That you respect guns more than political activism says all I need to know about you.

You want to make generalizations about politicaly affiliated groups?

Ok, here goes one :

All Republicans are ignorant, in-breeding, mentally challeneged hicks who don't have the sense god gave a gently stewed ruhbarb.


You see..... the difference is I know neither of those generalizations are true, but you actually believe yours.

[PittsburghAfterDark]

When you're statement is that the left is going "to stop being wimps and unload on you" I think we've taken this discussion well out of the realm of trying to accomplish something without physical force and gone straight into the realm of beware, we're coming to "get" you.

Hereticked; you do believe that, I don't believe for a New York minute that you don't view anyone not like minded that way. You stated the left is going to stop being whimps and unload on us, right? So anyone without a like minded viewpoint is going to feel your wrath right? You weren't talking about political activism, you were indicating an uprising and revolution, not activism.

Activism is going to vote. Activism is not saying "we're going to unload on you". Try and back out all you want, that was YOUR statement, not mine.

[MaxBiaggi3]

I'll be here with an G3A3 and 12 gaugue Remington Magnum Marine to meet their fearsome attack. . .

So, violence is the answer to everything. Can it solve all the world's problems with overcrowding, pollution, disease and starvation as well?

[PsyClerk]

Is it really that bad to try to accomplish something without the use of physical force?

Depends on who you're trying to change. Nonviolent protests will fly in the US. In most Arab countries though... :lol: methinks otherwise.

[CTLesq]

It was your thread. That was and is the issue.
CTL

Uh, no...... it wasn't "my" thread, I didn't start it.


You said I said something that I didn't.

You said you "disposed of my argument" when you didn't even respond to my last post in that thread.

You have now been proved wrong, and like a typical conservative/ayn rand cultist/neo-con know-it-all cry baby (who really doesn't know a damn thing).... you can't admit it.

And then you call me childish to boot.


First class dude. First class.

When its my job to respond to each anf everyone of your posts please let me know.

And your comments about my being killed in Iraq are childish.

CTL

[Hereticked]

When you're statement is that the left is going "to stop being wimps and unload on you" I think we've taken this discussion well out of the realm of trying to accomplish something without physical force and gone straight into the realm of beware, we're coming to "get" you".

Did it ever occur to you that I simply meant standing up for ones beliefs and refusing to be bullied around?

You can "unload" on someone in a contest of ideas just as you can in a fire fight.

[Hereticked]

And your comments about my being killed in Iraq are childish.CTL


Your posturing is childish, and no one with a brain is impressed by it.

[jmcc]

Is it really that bad to try to accomplish something without the use of physical force?

Depends on who you're trying to change. Nonviolent protests will fly in the US. In most Arab countries though... :lol: methinks otherwise.

So I guess it's like Jesus said in the Bible: "I want you to be nice until it's time to not be nice."

[PittsburghAfterDark]

So, violence is the answer to everything. Can it solve all the world's problems with overcrowding, pollution, disease and starvation as well?

Damn skippy, if we kill enough of them it sure as hell can. The world needs predators.

There's a reason on nature films that the cheetah, lion or tiger catches a sick or starving animal. There's a reason why in a herd of 300 wildebeast one of them bites the dust to thin the herd. Humans are no different. We're in a world race for tribal survival. Guess what, just like nature the strongest survive.

[MrBadExample]

reasonable left

Thanks, this gives me something else to put on my list along with:

resident alien
exact estimate
found missing
definite maybe
working vacation
genuine imitation

Don't forget Compassionate Conservative

[MrBadExample]

So, violence is the answer to everything. Can it solve all the world's problems with overcrowding, pollution, disease and starvation as well?

Damn skippy, if we kill enough of them it sure as hell can. The world needs predators.

There's a reason on nature films that the cheetah, lion or tiger catches a sick or starving animal. There's a reason why in a herd of 300 wildebeast one of them bites the dust to thin the herd. Humans are no different. We're in a world race for tribal survival. Guess what, just like nature the strongest survive.

Nobody told me Ted Nugent was on the list. Howdy, Nuge!

[Hereticked]

Damn skippy, if we kill enough of them it sure as hell can. The world needs predators.

There's a reason on nature films that the cheetah, lion or tiger catches a sick or starving animal. There's a reason why in a herd of 300 wildebeast one of them bites the dust to thin the herd. Humans are no different. We're in a world race for tribal survival. Guess what, just like nature the strongest survive.


Horribly flawed philosophy, although getting more popular all the time I see.

Humans are every bit different. We have the capacity to reason and to solve problems and settle disputes without violence. It's one of the few things that makes us more than "animals".

This is just another example of looking at life and society in black and white terms, when in reality it's much more complex. It's a lot easier to view things that way than to actually think.

[littlemonkey]

'Right wing corporate media?' Which one, National Review, Fox News, or Rush Limbaugh?
Enlighten yourself. Here's who owns the media. http://www.thenation.com/special/bigten.html
I always forget, businessmen and investors are known as notorious liberals. Silly me, I've got to start reading the Labor section in the newspaper. I think it's in here somewhere...


And virtually every other US 'mainstream' outlet is at least moderate, to slightly-left-of-Karl-Marx.
Typical. In the small little world of right wing conservatives, moderate conservatives are perceived as crazy-eyed liberals.


And yes, Muslims/Iraqis may think of humiliation as 'torture', most Americans wouldnt, and the news sources are reporting to an American audience.
Let me put some electrodes on your nuts and we'll see if you still want to call it "abuse".


I don't think the actions of a limited few people abusing a temporary position of power invalidates or negates what has changed for the better in Iraq over the last 1-2 years.

First I had to listen to these right wingers go on and on about weapons of mass destruction. Weren't any.
Then I had to listen to them talk about Saddam being connected to Bin Laden and 9/11. No connection, not true.
Next they started grasping for straws, hysterically shouting "well, at least the Iraqis are better off with us than that torturer Saddam!" Wrong again.

I wonder? What's Rush gonna put in your ignorant little mouths next?

littlemonkey

[rebenns]

I sure our military is not doing anything as bad as what the iraqes would do to a US soilder if he was taken prisoner

You might not read the news here. The comparison between which one is worse really depends on the person. Americans might think the Iraqi with Physical abuse is worse, but the Iraqi and moslem think Americans way of torture (degrading their pride as a human and religious being) are far worse than physical torture.

What would you rather have happen to you - have your pride as a human violated, or have your balls cut off?

[Don Chubo]

I'll be here with an G3A3 and 12 gaugue Remington Magnum Marine to meet their fearsome attack. . .

So, violence is the answer to everything. Can it solve all the world's problems with overcrowding, pollution, disease and starvation as well? You just answered your own question. Of course violence can solve those problems. Overcrowded? Kill and enjoy the new space. Pollution? Kill and breathe more air. Disease? Kill and burn. Starvation? Kill and enjoy the fact that more of them will fit in a hole.

[Hereticked]

You just answered your own question. Of course violence can solve those problems. Overcrowded? Kill and enjoy the new space. Pollution? Kill and breathe more air. Disease? Kill and burn. Starvation? Kill and enjoy the fact that more of them will fit in a hole.


That sounds like creating new problems to me, not solving anything.

[PittsburghAfterDark]

Humans are every bit different. We have the capacity to reason and to solve problems and settle disputes without violence. It's one of the few things that makes us more than "animals".

And that difference you talk about is only enjoyed by those in wealthy and developed nations. You can't settle disputes without violence when only one side of the dispute isn't willing to resort to violence. Isn't that the point of conflicts since the beginning of time?

I'm sure the Russians could have saved 25 million soldiers and citizens in WW II if they settled with the Nazi's by giving them their country. I mean, we wouldn't have had the dispute anymore. They wanted the country, if the Russians gave it to them we wouldn't have had all those dead.

Now let's take a look at a more recent "dispute" like the Cambodian revoltuion of 1975. I mean here we have Pol Pot, a Western educated leftist, who wanted his country restored to its historical agricultural roots. Now some people obviously didn't want to move out of their city homes, some were in dispute. Well he planted 6 million people in fields. Educated? Bullet to the head. Glasses? Intellectual, bullet to the head. City dweller? Threat to agrarian utopian ideals, bullet to the head. Where is the willingness to settle that dispute without violence?

Do you want to go on? Rwanda perhaps? Croatia, Yugoslavia, Kosovo? Iraq? Sudan? Where is the ability for people to settle disuptes withou violence? It isn't prevelant. It doesn't exist.

[Mr_hockey66]

I say its return for the people they burnt and then draged their bodies across a city pissed on them and then hung the dead burnt bodies from the city walls. Did we all forget about that? Whats to say that are soilders can't have a little fun with them now. Do you really think they would treat our POWs better! Do I agree with what they did? No I don't I don't think they should have done it. But why are we getting into such a uproar about it now. They did it to us. Favor returned. Who wouldn't want to take a few eaxta shots on these guys when nobody was looking. Can you blame the soliders? After what they did on 911. People have forgottren about that. We were so ready to fight anyone and everyone then but now no way its for oil. Do you guys not remeber the buildings burning? These soilders in "Iraq are the ones who enlisted after 911. Alls fair in love and War remember

[daphatty]

My opinion, it's a damn shame but who cares? Those people are in jail for a reason. Not to mention the fact that some of them have probably killed americans. Ignorant? Maybe. But nonetheless true.

[Hereticked]

Do you want to go on? Rwanda perhaps? Croatia, Yugoslavia, Kosovo? Iraq? Sudan? Where is the ability for people to settle disuptes withou violence? It isn't prevelant. It doesn't exist.

Are you suggesting that no dispute on Earth has ever been settled peacefully?

I said we had the capacity. Obviously mistakes are made all the time and peoples suffer for them.

So the answer is to just "go with the flow"? Just pretend the world is a giant game of Survivor and don't work for something better?


Uh uh.

Keep thinking.

[MrBadExample]

I say its return for the people they burnt and then draged their bodies across a city pissed on them and then hung the dead burnt bodies from the city walls. Did we all forget about that? Whats to say that are soilders can't have a little fun with them now. Do you really think they would treat our POWs better! Do I agree with what they did? No I don't I don't think they should have done it. But why are we getting into such a uproar about it now. They did it to us. Favor returned. Who wouldn't want to take a few eaxta shots on these guys when nobody was looking. Can you blame the soliders? After what they did on 911. People have forgottren about that. We were so ready to fight anyone and everyone then but now no way its for oil. Do you guys not remeber the buildings burning? These soilders in "Iraq are the ones who enlisted after 911. Alls fair in love and War remember

By your reasoning, it's high time the Native Americans started passing out smallpox-loaded blankets for all the palefaces.

An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

P.S. The Iraqis had NOTHING to do with 9/11. Nothing. Zip. Nada. Even Bush has admitted this at least once.

[ryanbph]

What happened was a disgrace on the Americain Military and it should NOT happen again, but I don't understand what the big deal is, the middle east is notorious for having the worst prisons in the world, they have dragged our soldiers, and civilian workers threw their streets, they shot and killed POW during the very brief war we had about a year ago, they even had it on tape. If no one in the world is going to play by the rules then why should we. I personally don't like what happened, but they announced the investigation in january, I heard it on the radio, they pressed charges in march against those involved...now here we are in early may, and this story comes up. Get over it, humans are evil everywhere, yes even in our military we have bad seeds. I heard several analyst try to say, that due to the change in the military policy in the early 90's, about allowing gays in thru the don't ask don't tell policy, that maybe some of the leaders in the prison were gay, and were acting out...Statements like this are pathetic, I don't feel the president should say sorry, it wasn't orders from the top of the govt, and the bullshit about rumsfeld lied, decived, covered up come on now, it was several idiotic soldiers in iraq.

[dtcarson]

'Right wing corporate media?' Which one, National Review, Fox News, or Rush Limbaugh?
Enlighten yourself. Here's who owns the media. http://www.thenation.com/special/bigten.html
I always forget, businessmen and investors are known as notorious liberals. Silly me, I've got to start reading the Labor section in the newspaper. I think it's in here somewhere...

When I think of 'left wing media', I think of the faces whose job it is to report the news. Alleged 'journalists', who in actuality use their job as a political pulpit. The businessmen in the boardrooms don't really care what's said, as long as ad space still sells and not too many stockholders/members of the public/FCC staff complain. And aren't liberals not supposed to stereotype? It sounds to me like you are saying 'All businessmen and investors are conservative.' Which is most certainly a stereotype. Especially given that the 'rich', who are more likely to be those evil businessmen, when they're not the Hollywood elite or people who inherited/married into their money, and can afford to donate more politically, predominantly donate to Democrats.

And virtually every other US 'mainstream' outlet is at least moderate, to slightly-left-of-Karl-Marx.
Typical. In the small little world of right wing conservatives, moderate conservatives are perceived as crazy-eyed liberals.

What? I said they ranged from moderate to far-left. I did not equate the two. Read all the words in the sentence, please. And I'm pleased to see you indulging in another common 'debate' tactic of the left, where if something isn't one thing, it is automatically its polar opposite.

And yes, Muslims/Iraqis may think of humiliation as 'torture', most Americans wouldnt, and the news sources are reporting to an American audience.
Let me put some electrodes on your nuts and we'll see if you still want to call it "abuse".

Quite the peacenik, aren't you. So removing a brutal dictator is bad, but threatening to attack and torture a fellow American is ok.
Did the people in the pictures we are discussing do that? If they did, then that end of it certainly qualifies as 'torture'. If they didn't attempt to physically harm or cause physical pain to them, then I stand by 'abuse/humiliation.'


I don't think the actions of a limited few people abusing a temporary position of power invalidates or negates what has changed for the better in Iraq over the last 1-2 years.

First I had to listen to these right wingers go on and on about weapons of mass destruction. Weren't any.

Haven't found. There's a difference. Also, it has been shown that AlQaeda did train in Iraq, and most likely did receive chemical/gas weapons from Iraq.

Then I had to listen to them talk about Saddam being connected to Bin Laden and 9/11. No connection, not true.
Next they started grasping for straws, hysterically shouting "well, at least the Iraqis are better off with us than that torturer Saddam!" Wrong again.

Wait a minute, so the average Iraqi 'citizen' is better off with Saddam? Saving corpses of babies until they make good photos, torturing and killing his 'citizens', stealing billions of dollars that were given by the all-holy UN in an Oil for Food kickback--er, program, and were meant to buy food for the average person? Regardless of whether we should or should not have gone into Iraq or captured Saddam, 'Was Saddam better for the Iraqis? Was he a fit ruler?'

I wonder? What's Rush gonna put in your ignorant little mouths next?

Cute. Real cute. Why is it that in most of these threads, the name calling and snarky comments that don't really say anything tend to come from the 'tolerant' left first?

Your stuff's in italics, I didn't want to mess with the quote tags.

[ryanbph]

P.S. The Iraqis had NOTHING to do with 9/11. Nothing. Zip. Nada. Even Bush has admitted this at least once.

I didn't read in the previous post that he said they had something to do with 9/11, and so what if they didn't, the 9/11 commission was going on and on attacking bush on why didn't he do something sooner, well guess what he did that and did something in Iraq, maybe this prevented something that might have come a couple years down the road, maybe it didn't, but we are playing defense anymore are we

[eldad9]

My opinion, it's a damn shame but who cares? Those people are in jail for a reason.

Some of them, but not all of them.

And you know what? Most people in U.S. prisons are there for a reason too. Is it OK to do the same thing to them? After all, they are there for a reason.

[The Successful Dropout]

i think that its messed up...what they did....but you don't know the state of mind that some of these soldiers are in....this whole iraq situation is stupid....and now they have to keep going back, stay longer, go back, stay longer, etc. Just blow the whole place up....or let them deal with their own problems....they don't want us there. And I'm as heartfelt as anyone else out there....ill still cry watching Lion King....but dont give me that, "what about the children" garbage...."we can't bomb the place because of the children"....the children are gonna be nightmares towards us (in the future) due to us killing their parents....they will seek revenge.............and to sum up the whole pow issue....a few privates will take the fall....but no1 else....even though nothing goes on down there without someone in charge walking around.....i dont really care personally about the humiliating and etc....at least we're not killing them and raping them and dragging them across the street and burning them and hacking up their bodies and stringing them across bridges........all in all....if you don't like whats going on....or if you don't like what you see....sign up for the military and make a difference, or stfu

now feel free to yell at me about this issue...

[PsyClerk]

Guys, I can appreciate your 'let's work things out, give a peace a chance' stance. I don't mean that sarcastically. If we were dealing with normal people, I would harp that line myself.

However, we are dealing with a section of humanity that is not far removed from savages. I don't say that to be racist or mean. I say that because it's what I see. The people in the Middle East have been at war for thousands of years, both with themselves and with those from other religions and/or countries. These people are not high on negotiating.

I think I've said this before, but it bears repeating. The average Arab (especially Arab Muslims) understands and respects two things: power and money. If you can find an Arab native who spent their formative years in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc then came to the US, please ask them. 90% of them will agree with that statement, and the other 10% will disagree out of embarrasment.

Most of the people who are attacking US troops and basically any other non-Arab persons in Iraq are fundamentalist Muslims. They don't care what position you have personally. If you, as an individual, were captured by them, it wouldn't matter how much negotiating or convincing you tried in order to show them you supported them. If you are not an Arab Muslim, you are less than them, and thus are worthy only of being used as either a hostage or target practice. It's sad, and I honestly don't know of any other way to approach those types of people other than to use force.

I've seen a lot of gnashing of teeth and pulling of hair, but I have yet to see someone offer a better solution to the problem of fundamentalist terrorism.

[defender]

Again....!!!!

Another heated political debate between pro-war pro-bush and anti-war anti-bush. Isnt this getting a bit old...

You can type and read and say all you want but I havent seen ONE person here change their minds on the subjects. Sure there are lots of good opinions here on both sides but does it really matter.

Page after page after page after page after page...endless pages of political debate in a GAMES FORUMS...Cmon please just talk about the weather or something.


Are we gonna have these threads here every day? If so I vote to start a politics forums to keep the arguments out of what is normally a fun off-topics forums.

[PsyClerk]

Page after page after page after page after page...endless pages of political debate in a GAMES FORUMS...Cmon please just talk about the weather or something.

Yeah, but it's the off topic forum. I can understand your dislike of the threads, but you can just skip them. I know I overlook more than a few.

Besides I have nothing else to do at work, and I enjoy playing devil's advocate.

[jmcc]

Besides I have nothing else to do at work, and I enjoy playing devil's advocate.

Me too.
http://www.macalester.edu/~coien/simpsons/s12/clown3b.gif

[punqsux]

Page after page after page after page after page...endless pages of political debate in a GAMES FORUMS...Cmon please just talk about the weather or something.

Yeah, but it's the off topic forum. I can understand your dislike of the threads, but you can just skip them. I know I overlook more than a few.

Besides I have nothing else to do at work, and I enjoy playing devil's advocate.

i vote defender stops whining about the off topic forum. i mean really how many times have u mentioned that u hate political topics? why read them? why post in them? it makes no sence. if u dont want to read it, dont click it. while some topics do stray off and become about politics, clearly a thread named "iraqi prisioner abuse" is gunna have some politics. totally avoidable.

[PsyClerk]

golf clap for jmcc

That was great.

[The Successful Dropout]

i agree with punqsux....im new here....but ive seen a lot of whining from defender (no offense)....but this is where this topic belongs....unless a new forum is introduced...along with psyclerk, i see tons of posts that i just dont even bother with because i dont care....if you dont like it....just ignore it....you can't go to your local safeway supermarket and say you dont like the milk being in the dairy aisle, so it has to be moved

[defender]

because they tend to bleed into other topics and takes up everyones time reading and writing in these damn threads...its not as easy as you think to just ignore them when they are starting to fill up all the new posts and front page latest posts...

even scrubking is smart enough to stay away...

Yeah..I am whining I realize that but hey..I am trying to convince people just like everyone else is here. Except I dont have a political agenda attached to it.

[snotknocker]

It was the morning of 9/11. I work in NJ directly across the river from what used to be the Twin Towers. I remember passing them that morning during my commute and thinking to myself what a beautiful day, as I watched the sun beam off them. It was about 10 minutes after that when I walked into my office that I saw the news bulletin on our conference room TV. I immediately ran to my car and drove to a parking lot that had a clear view of the TT's. My next action may have been the biggest mistake of my life. I broke out my binoculars from the trunk of my car. As I watched in horror the second tower was hit, it was now apparent to me that this was an act of terroism. I almost puked. I can vividly remember watching people jump to their deaths, some on fire some not. I personally knew six people that died. Familys torn apart, kids traumatized for life. I still wake up sometimes in a cold sweat from the nightmares. The most recent time last night.

This cowardly act was done by a culture that has no respect for American life. Al-Quaida, Iraq, Iran whatever..... it's the culture.

So now I see some abuse stories or torture stories about prisoners in an Iraqi jail I think to myself these people would slit your throat without a second thought. These prisoners would kill your wife.... your kids.....your friends without a second thought. They would strip you of everything they could given the chance.

I think in my mind that this is not right. Two wrongs don't make right. I think we should not stoop to their level.

However, I feel in my heart a burning desire to condone pain and sufferring on a culture that has inflicted so much pain on me personally and us all collectively as a nation

[PsyClerk]

Defender gets special privileges. He gives us cheap ass deals.

[punqsux]

It was the morning of 9/11. I work in NJ directly across the river from what used to be the Twin Towers. I remember passing them that morning during my commute and thinking to myself what a beautiful day, as I watched the sun beam off them. It was about 10 minutes after that when I walked into my office that I saw the news bulletin on our conference room TV. I immediately ran to my car and drove to a parking lot that had a clear view of the TT's. My next action may have been the biggest mistake of my life. I broke out my binoculars from the trunk of my car. As I watched in horror the second tower was hit, it was now apparent to me that this was an act of terroism. I almost puked. I can vividly remember watching people jump to their deaths, some on fire some not. I personally knew six people that died. Familys torn apart, kids traumatized for life. I still wake up sometimes in a cold sweat from the nightmares. The most recent time last night.

This cowardly act was done by a culture that has no respect for American life. Al-Quaida, Iraq, Iran whatever..... it's the culture.

So now I see some abuse stories or torture stories about prisoners in an Iraqi jail I think to myself these people would slit your throat without a second thought. These prisoners would kill your wife.... your kids.....your friends without a second thought. They would strip you of everything they could given the chance.

I think in my mind that this is not right. Two wrongs don't make right. I think we should not stoop to their level.

However, I feel in my heart a burning desire to condone pain and sufferring on a culture that has inflicted so much pain on me personally and us all collectively as a nation

its called human rights. everybody should have them, regardless of culture, or political viewpoints.

when you take someone prisoner, you have to supply them with food/clothing/hygine materials/etc. and on top of that, its your job to protect them! while they do lose freedoms for being a prisoner, they are still human.

statments like the one above my post are the reason why hate will never die, only manifest

[CTLesq]

Do you want to go on? Rwanda perhaps? Croatia, Yugoslavia, Kosovo? Iraq? Sudan? Where is the ability for people to settle disuptes withou violence? It isn't prevelant. It doesn't exist.

Are you suggesting that no dispute on Earth has ever been settled peacefully?

I said we had the capacity. Obviously mistakes are made all the time and peoples suffer for them.

So the answer is to just "go with the flow"? Just pretend the world is a giant game of Survivor and don't work for something better?


Uh uh.

Keep thinking.

You believe the terrorists can be handled by peaceful means?

I just want a yes or no.

CTL

[punqsux]

Do you want to go on? Rwanda perhaps? Croatia, Yugoslavia, Kosovo? Iraq? Sudan? Where is the ability for people to settle disuptes withou violence? It isn't prevelant. It doesn't exist.

Are you suggesting that no dispute on Earth has ever been settled peacefully?

I said we had the capacity. Obviously mistakes are made all the time and peoples suffer for them.

So the answer is to just "go with the flow"? Just pretend the world is a giant game of Survivor and don't work for something better?


Uh uh.

Keep thinking.

You believe the terrorists can be handled by peaceful means?

I just want a yes or no.

CTL

you believe everyone in iraq is a terrorist?

[XboxMaster]

Do you want to go on? Rwanda perhaps? Croatia, Yugoslavia, Kosovo? Iraq? Sudan? Where is the ability for people to settle disuptes withou violence? It isn't prevelant. It doesn't exist.

Are you suggesting that no dispute on Earth has ever been settled peacefully?

I said we had the capacity. Obviously mistakes are made all the time and peoples suffer for them.

So the answer is to just "go with the flow"? Just pretend the world is a giant game of Survivor and don't work for something better?


Uh uh.

Keep thinking.

You believe the terrorists can be handled by peaceful means?

I just want a yes or no.

CTL

you believe everyone in iraq is a terrorist?

:lol: , uh oh, the liberal's cornered. I love when this happens :D .

[MightySlacker]

This cowardly act was done by a culture that has no respect for American life. Al-Quaida, Iraq, Iran whatever..... it's the culture.



I thought I knew what ridiculous was until this day.

Dave Olson
*SUPER DUPER INTERNET CELEBRITY SUPASTAR~!* TM.

[jmcc]

Do you want to go on? Rwanda perhaps? Croatia, Yugoslavia, Kosovo? Iraq? Sudan? Where is the ability for people to settle disuptes withou violence? It isn't prevelant. It doesn't exist.

Are you suggesting that no dispute on Earth has ever been settled peacefully?

I said we had the capacity. Obviously mistakes are made all the time and peoples suffer for them.

So the answer is to just "go with the flow"? Just pretend the world is a giant game of Survivor and don't work for something better?


Uh uh.

Keep thinking.

You believe the terrorists can be handled by peaceful means?

I just want a yes or no.

CTL

My answer would be that you can't deal with them through violence (short of total genocide.) All that will do is expand the number of them that hate us and will lead to plenty more terrorism down the road. What needs to be done is change the Iraqis on a fundamental level by raising their quality of life and letting the non-violent majority of them (at least I hope the majority of them aren't suicide bombing fanatics) take control of the region. I'm a realist, and as such I don't think it can be accomplished without bloodshed on both sides, but I think this offensive that we're stuck in now is absolutely the wrong way to go about it. I believe we've set relations with the country (and probably a lot of the region) back 50 years with this offensive. Sorry it's not a yes or no answer (if you insisted on that I'd say "yes, but not without shit-tons of American casualties, which is unacceptable in reality.")

[PsyClerk]

Therein lies the flaw. The people in that region are far too entrenched in their religion. If they aren't fighting the US or other infidels, they'll fight other Iraqis or Arabs who are with a different religious faction.

The correct answer is 'religion is bad.'

/REALLY FLAME ON! FOR LIKE REAL AND STUFF!

[CTLesq]

Do you want to go on? Rwanda perhaps? Croatia, Yugoslavia, Kosovo? Iraq? Sudan? Where is the ability for people to settle disuptes withou violence? It isn't prevelant. It doesn't exist.

Are you suggesting that no dispute on Earth has ever been settled peacefully?

I said we had the capacity. Obviously mistakes are made all the time and peoples suffer for them.

So the answer is to just "go with the flow"? Just pretend the world is a giant game of Survivor and don't work for something better?


Uh uh.

Keep thinking.

You believe the terrorists can be handled by peaceful means?

I just want a yes or no.

CTL

you believe everyone in iraq is a terrorist?

Nope, as Hereticked will state, in order to avoid the issue, "there were no terrorists in Iraq before the US came" (which is incorrect see: Abdul Nidal and Abu Nidal). My issue is broader.

He asserts:

"Are you suggesting that no dispute on Earth has ever been settled peacefully?"

So I am asking him if we can reasonably deal with the terrorists in a peaceful manner and reslove their issues?


XboxMaster : I am neither a liberal or ever cornered.

CTL

[MrBadExample]

The best solution at this point (and this is a long-range mission) is to reduce and eventually eliminate our dependence on petroleum. If we didn't need oil, we would not keep getting dragged into conflicts in the region. But our Oil Man in Chief is never gonna suggest that. All his pals are making tons of money and will fight any efforts at alternative fuels tooth and nail.

[PsyClerk]

Dependence on oil is only part of it. Our support for Israel is another HUGE part of it. Arabs hate us for that more than anything.

[E-Z-B]

Israel is perhaps THEE biggest reason why arabs hate america. That, and our presence in saudi arabia, considered sacred land to the muslim world. It seems that when people have jobs, and are busy with work and providing for their families, they don't have the time nor the will to inflame hatred. That's what america needs to focus on in iraq - that's the plan that bush needs to present to americans. A plan to get iraq's economy going with creating jobs in iraq.

I haven't read all the entries in this thread. But what saddens me the most is that some of the soldiers don't even look old enough to drink yet, but now they are being condemned for abusing prisoners. Dang, man, when I was 18-20 years old, I was still doing extremely stupid stuff in college. Granted, I wasn't in the military serving as prison guards. But if I was stuck in iraq for God knows how long, and had very, very low moral, I don't know what I would do over there either. Especially if I was trained to be a soldier, but was stuck doing crappy prison guard stuff that should be handled by professionals. I'm not blaming the administration, but the soldiers commanding officiers should have done more.

Oh, and to snotknocker - keep in mind that religion under Saddam was suppressed. Many iraqis hated him for that, but he led a secular government and kept terrorists in check under his country. Are we better off without him? Maybe, maybe not. The question is: is iraq and our country worse off now?

[PsyClerk]

Come on...the commanding officers should have done more? That's the biggest load of shit I've heard come out of this mess. I wanted to slap the one soldier who complained he wasn't given any guidelines about how to handle prisoners. Here's a hint: don't use them in sick twisted games and photographs. That's common shaq-fuing sense. My military buddies agree that those guys immediately responsible are dumbasses.

Exactly what sort of 'professional' is needed to handle prisoners? I know a couple of prison guards from the county lock-up, and saw more in action in a federal facility. Rocket science it ain't.

Is Iraq worse off now? No. But if they fall into the trap of instituting a government based on religion, they'll slide back a few decades.

[punqsux]

Dang, man, when I was 18-20 years old, I was still doing extremely stupid stuff in college.

like violating basic human rights?

god damn, those people are representing US as a whole, and their doing shit like that. i cant imagine why people hate us... :roll:

[loserboy]

Just checked in on this thread...been up late writing lesson plans for my 7th grade class i'm student teaching in...thought I'd toss my idiotic viewpoints into the arena...

I've always been a middle of the roader...and it kind of sucks...my wife is a big liberal, my dad a pretty big conservative...buy my views, while consistent, have always been on both sides of the fence (i.e. anti abortion and anti capital punishment; big fan of welfare AND big fan of personal responsibility).

I was a supporter of the war...whether or not Iraq had WMD...why because I can't stand idiot dictators who treat their own people like shit. Of course I assumed that the Republicans who have spent their entire modern existenced supporting the industrial military complex and defining and redefining the way wars are fought and won...would have a shaq-fuin plan. In essence I believe someone has to police the world...and it probably should be us, since like it or not that has been our role throughout history.

But the problem is that we didn't have a plan. That's what is the most disturbing thing about all of this. Everyone looks like they've been caught in the headlights. Bush apologizes TODAY...days and days and days late. He doesn't wipe his ass unless he gets the approval from whoever it is that's pulling his puppet strings.

What's going on over there is terrible. No one regardless of ethnicity, religious belief, or national origin should be humilaited like that. And what is most frightening and disturbing about this is that our military folks, the people carrying the guns and fighting our battles are DUMB ENOUGH to take pictures of themselves doing it.

This should be in "The Onion" it's so freakin ridiculous. What sort of people take these photos and don't think that people will see them. It's stupidity and hubris rolled into one.

I have always tried to live by Kant's Categorical Imperative (sort of a philosophical "Golden Rule"). Don't treat anyone in a way that you yourself would not want to be treated. Is that so hard to understand? Is that so difficult to comprehend? Where is one's own dignity and self respect when you're standing behind a bunch of nude men high fiving and making faces?

So few people seem to think about the repercussions of their actions anymore. I suppose, though, they follow their own leaders actions. There's so much to talk about here...we have leaders who lied to get us into Iraq...knowlingly followed crap evidence of WMD to sway most of the U.S. into war...an administration that did not even win the popular vote in this country...an administration stacked with a whos who of the oil industry...

I can't go on with this...I want to ask one question though..why is it that this administration the defender of freedom around the globe...is so intent on taking away our own freedoms piece by piece...I am particularly concerned with the FCC and their current crusade against free speech.

I suppose we can support dozens of nude Iraqis on our tv screens, but not a pierced tit...

great set of priorities...

[miriamleo]

where can i see those abusive pics?

[E-Z-B]

Come on...the commanding officers should have done more? That's the biggest load of shit I've heard come out of this mess. I wanted to slap the one soldier who complained he wasn't given any guidelines about how to handle prisoners. Here's a hint: don't use them in sick twisted games and photographs. That's common shaq-fuing sense. My military buddies agree that those guys immediately responsible are dumbasses.

Exactly what sort of 'professional' is needed to handle prisoners? I know a couple of prison guards from the county lock-up, and saw more in action in a federal facility. Rocket science it ain't.

Is Iraq worse off now? No. But if they fall into the trap of instituting a government based on religion, they'll slide back a few decades.

I think you missed my point. My point was that these soldiers performing these acts looked very, very young. Any with youth comes stupidity. That's why you need supervisors over these teens, just like you need a supervisor at a restaurant where a bunch of teen boys might spit a loogie in your food because they think it's funny. It's easy for you to judge our soldiers from your safe, air-conditioned house. But let me see YOU go to iraq for 2 years during an insurgency in a war where the president lied about our reason to go over there in the first place. Let me see YOU over there, watching people you know drop like flies, then have the pentagon try to hide the entire story behind these soldier's deaths. Then tell me that you still give a shaq-fu about those prisoners. I'm not saying that we can't judge them. I'm saying to at least try to imagine what it's like over there first.

What a mess. (i.e., Iraq).

[Quackzilla]

Actually the dancing in the street after 9/11 thing was not Arabs in Iraq, it was Jews in Israel.

And the reason was that they had been attacked by terrorists (gee, you occupy a country and expect a warm welcome) and were glad to see that the US was experiencing what they had experienced.


Do not post bullshit as fact and do not post fact as bullshit, but post fact as fact and bullshit as bullshit, and that be the word of the nerd.


____

And since there were no WMDs the only cause for the war was to end Sadams reign of terror.

Ofcourse, there are always gonna be some religious bigots that beleive they are exempt from everything and can do whatever the fuck they want.

[PsyClerk]

JSweeney mode...ACTIVATED!

Just a few things I wanted to point out...

my views, while consistent,

I would challenge this. Let's look closer.

big fan of welfare AND big fan of personal responsibility).

Remind me to add this to my list I posted earlier, like 'exact estimate' and 'definite maybe.'

I was a supporter of the war...whether or not Iraq had WMD...why because I can't stand idiot dictators who treat their own people like shit.

Ok, I can see this. But wait...

There's so much to talk about here...we have leaders who lied to get us into Iraq...knowlingly followed crap evidence of WMD to sway most of the U.S. into war

Your earlier statement implies you didn't care about WMD. So which is it? Let me guess...you're a big Kerry supporter, right?

I suppose we can support dozens of nude Iraqis on our tv screens, but not a pierced tit...

No one supports the former. And for the record, both are atrocities.

[punqsux]

I was a supporter of the war...whether or not Iraq had WMD...why because I can't stand idiot dictators who treat their own people like shit.

Ok, I can see this. But wait...

There's so much to talk about here...we have leaders who lied to get us into Iraq...knowlingly followed crap evidence of WMD to sway most of the U.S. into war

Your earlier statement implies you didn't care about WMD. So which is it? Let me guess...you're a big Kerry supporter, right?


i think what hes saying there is he dosent care about why we went into iraq, hes just pointing out that the gov used propaghanda to say the opinion of the american public. im all for these political debates, but dont knock things out of context like that, it makes u lok like a politician :wink:

[Quackzilla]

Told lies to make congress and the people approve.

Should have told truth and said war was for overthrowing Sadam and making money for Halliburton.

[PsyClerk]

I think you missed my point. My point was that these soldiers performing these acts looked very, very young. Any with youth comes stupidity. That's why you need supervisors over these teens, just like you need a supervisor at a restaurant where a bunch of teen boys might spit a loogie in your food because they think it's funny. It's easy for you to judge our soldiers from your safe, air-conditioned house. But let me see YOU go to iraq for 2 years during an insurgency in a war where the president lied about our reason to go over there in the first place. Let me see YOU over there, watching people you know drop like flies, then have the pentagon try to hide the entire story behind these soldier's deaths. Then tell me that you still give a shaq-fu about those prisoners. I'm not saying that we can't judge them. I'm saying to at least try to imagine what it's like over there first.

Yes, they are young. And if we were talking about random morons off the street, I'd agree with you. However, two issues....first, you say 'they look young.' That does not mean they are 18 straight out of high school. Second, these are soldiers. Six weeks of basic training can get rid of a lot of stupid behavior.

Yes, they are in a tough environment. However, that is no excuse to forgoe all personal responsibility. The 'watching people you know drop like flies' is also a misleading statement. In a year, we've lost less than 1% of the standing forces, not counting those that have rotated out.

I suppose it's much more attractive for the left to lay blame on Bush or Rumsfeld rather than the actual perpetrators, though.

[punqsux]

Told lies to make congress and the people approve.

Should have told truth and said war was for overthrowing Sadam and making money for Halliburton.

i would have prefered this. while i wouldnt have agreed, i knew he was lying anyways, and truth is always better than a lie

[Jakeryansdad]

MSNBC had those pics. And to E Z B, I don't think those are teenagers, but just for the sake of argument, lets say they are. I'm 21 and I would NEVER, could NEVER, do that to another human being. That was disgusting, and trust me, I generally have a strong stomach. So even if they were "teens", they should still have they DECENCY to not do that to someone. Also, they guy in back of the tackle with the glasses looks at least 35. (Is it just me, or does he remind any of you of Sgt. Slaughter of WWF fame?)

[punqsux]

I suppose it's much more attractive for the left to lay blame on Bush or Rumsfeld rather than the actual perpetrators, though.

=D>

while i dislike bush as much as anyone, i agree this incident isnt his fault directly. if you REALLY want to stretch it, it IS his fault that the troops are even there in the first place. and if you REALLY want to stretch that, its sadams fault we were there. and if you really want to stretch that, its the iraqi people fault for "electing" him. so as you can see its clearly their own fault...

anyways back in reality, i hope these troops are punished severly for this, as i 100% blame them. theres no excuses. no reasons, they truley are walking piles of human composte

[Quackzilla]

Well, we have pics and names of all of the racist assholes that did it, so we can send hate mail.

[PsyClerk]

Is it just me, or does he remind any of you of Sgt. Slaughter of WWF fame?

Thanks, now I have that music that he used in his entrance in my head for the rest of day.

/marches off

[punqsux]

Is it just me, or does he remind any of you of Sgt. Slaughter of WWF fame?

Thanks, now I have that music that he used in his entrance in my head for the rest of day.

/marches off

drop and give me 20, MAGGOT!

[Quackzilla]

I suppose it's much more attractive for the left to lay blame on Bush or Rumsfeld rather than the actual perpetrators, though.

=D>

while i dislike bush as much as anyone, i agree this incident isnt his fault directly. if you REALLY want to stretch it, it IS his fault that the troops are even there in the first place. and if you REALLY want to stretch that, its sadams fault we were there. and if you really want to stretch that, its the iraqi people fault for "electing" him. so as you can see its clearly their own fault...

anyways back in reality, i hope these troops are punished severly for this, as i 100% blame them. theres no excuses. no reasons, they truley are walking piles of human composte

Rummy knew about it but kept it secret, that is what he has been accused of. Noone said he had involvement.

Also, the Iraqis had 2 choices on their voting cards, "yes" and "no".
A vote for "no" gets the death penalty and the vote is invalidated.
The CIA put that bastard in power, not the people.

[PsyClerk]

The CIA put that bastard in power, not the people.

It's ok, the CIA is in collusion with the alien overmind.

Ironically, anyone remember that Sgt Slaughter teamed up with the Iron Sheik or someone that was supposedly Iraqi back in the early 90s? What's old is new again!

[MaxBiaggi3]

So even if they were "teens", they should still have they DECENCY to not do that to someone.

Unfortunately, you can go to fraternity row on just about any college campus in America and find similar behavior by otherwise intelligent teens and young adults if you look hard enough. Reasonable people are capable of and do perform such acts all the time.

[punqsux]

I suppose it's much more attractive for the left to lay blame on Bush or Rumsfeld rather than the actual perpetrators, though.

=D>

while i dislike bush as much as anyone, i agree this incident isnt his fault directly. if you REALLY want to stretch it, it IS his fault that the troops are even there in the first place. and if you REALLY want to stretch that, its sadams fault we were there. and if you really want to stretch that, its the iraqi people fault for "electing" him. so as you can see its clearly their own fault...

anyways back in reality, i hope these troops are punished severly for this, as i 100% blame them. theres no excuses. no reasons, they truley are walking piles of human composte

Rummy knew about it but kept it secret, that is what he has been accused of. Noone said he had involvement.

Also, the Iraqis had 2 choices on their voting cards, "yes" and "no".
A vote for "no" gets the death penalty and the vote is invalidated.
The CIA put that bastard in power, not the people.

yeah i know about the election, thats why it was in quotes. i was just showing how to spin the truth. i should work in network news ^^

i didnt know rumsfeld knew about this, but if he did, he should resign. that reminds me of the chatholic church and their cover ups.

[punqsux]

The CIA put that bastard in power, not the people.

It's ok, the CIA is in collusion with the alien overmind.

Ironically, anyone remember that Sgt Slaughter teamed up with the Iron Sheik or someone that was supposedly Iraqi back in the early 90s? What's old is new again!

the iron sheik and general adnon

[jx820]

Come on... A little torture never hurt anynone! :twisted: Seriously though, when bad things happen to bad people (even if uncalled for) I dont have a whole lot of pitty. These fucking war criminals can cry me a f*cking river. It's the sexual abuse of prisoners that i disagree with. There is a difference between beating and electocuting someone for info or cause they deserve it and RAPING someone as a way to get off :( I also have to say that as much as I have a distaste for Bush and Rummy I can't see how you can pin it on them. They are 2000 miles away and what happend seems isolated and not a matter of policy.

[defender]

So there was 3 guys in a bar...an Israeli, an American, and an Iraqi...


(please feel free to continue the joke that is this thread)

[MrBadExample]

So there was 3 guys in a bar...an Israeli, an American, and an Iraqi...


(please feel free to continue the joke that is this thread)

And you feel free to keep reading it and commenting. It really adds to the debate.

[PsyClerk]

Actually that reminds me of another joke.

A street reporter is doing a 'man on the street' poll for a local TV station. He stops an American, an Iraqi, a Pole, and a guy who is obviously a native New Yorker. He asks them "Excuse me, what's your opinion on the meat shortage?"

The American says "What's shortage?"

The Iraqi says "What's opinion?"

The Pole says "What's meat?"

The New Yorker says "What's excuse me?"

[MrBadExample]

The CIA put that bastard in power, not the people.

It's ok, the CIA is in collusion with the alien overmind.



Are you really ridiculing the idea that the CIA has overthrown foreign governments? We installed Saddam because he was a secular leader that we could do business with. The biggest fear for us would be a popularly elected official in the Middle East because more than likely it would be a fundamentalist Islamic regime that would cut off our oil supply.

[PsyClerk]

Are you really ridiculing the idea that the CIA has overthrown foreign governments? We installed Saddam because he was a secular leader that we could do business with. The biggest fear for us would be a popularly elected official in the Middle East because more than likely it would be a fundamentalist Islamic regime that would cut off our oil supply.

You'll be excused this time because you're new. But I was taking a jab at someone else's belief in aliens and the government cover-up that keeps them a secret from the rest of the world.

[MrBadExample]

Dependence on oil is only part of it. Our support for Israel is another HUGE part of it. Arabs hate us for that more than anything.

I didn't mean to ignore our support for Israel but I don't see what we can do to change that. If we don't support them, I wouldn't be surprised at nuclear war in the region. Of course past administration have tried something called diplomacy. Maybe someone should teach Dubya that word phonetically.

[MrBadExample]

Are you really ridiculing the idea that the CIA has overthrown foreign governments? We installed Saddam because he was a secular leader that we could do business with. The biggest fear for us would be a popularly elected official in the Middle East because more than likely it would be a fundamentalist Islamic regime that would cut off our oil supply.

You'll be excused this time because you're new. But I was taking a jab at someone else's belief in aliens and the government cover-up that keeps them a secret from the rest of the world.

A thousand pardons...

But I did want to illustrate we are reaping what we sowed over there. Same as we did with the Shah of Iran.

[PsyClerk]

I didn't mean to ignore our support for Israel but I don't see what we can do to change that. If we don't support them, I wouldn't be surprised at nuclear war in the region. Of course past administration have tried something called diplomacy. Maybe someone should teach Dubya that word phonetically.

Diplomacy has been tried ever since the inception the Jewish state. As has been stated on this very thread, it is difficult, if not impossible, to negotiate and be diplomatic with religious fundamentalists.

[MrBadExample]

I didn't mean to ignore our support for Israel but I don't see what we can do to change that. If we don't support them, I wouldn't be surprised at nuclear war in the region. Of course past administration have tried something called diplomacy. Maybe someone should teach Dubya that word phonetically.

Diplomacy has been tried ever since the inception the Jewish state. As has been stated on this very thread, it is difficult, if not impossible, to negotiate and be diplomatic with religious fundamentalists.

Well our choices are to try diplomacy or step back and start selling the handbaskets. I think we've coddled the Israelis too much sometimes. We need to put heavy pressure on both sides to come to an agreement. Both need to compromise. Right now Sharon and his assassination squads are certainly not helping ease tensions and neither are the Palestinian suicide bombers.