New Nintendo controller defeats purpose of console gaming?

[Ruined]

A lot of people play games when they have some free time and want to relax - often they are tired, burnt out from work, etc, and just want to lay down, chill out, and play a game.

But think about it, this is not really possible when using the new Nintendo controller. When laying down on your side or on your stomach (common positions for playing games when not sitting), your arms and hands have a limited range of motion. In addition to that, keeping your arms outstretched and 6" apart link (http://forums.nintendo.com/nintendo/board/message?board.id=revolution&message.id=447034) - the positioning required to use the new Nintendo controller - is uncomfortable and quickly fatiguing when laying on your side/stomach. On top of all this, the outcome of your success in the game depends on your physical positioning. So if you just want to kick back, lay down, and game, you will probably get sore arms and frustrated using the new Nintendo controller.

One of the major advantages of using a console over a PC is that you are able to relax on your couch and play a game. (on a PC you need to sit/stand to operate a keyboard/mouse). This advantage is lost with the new Nintendo controller, as you will be restricted to certain positions similar to a PC (probably sitting or standing) in order to succeed at the game without giving yourself muscle cramps.

In addition, there likely will be no option to use a standard controller for games that are made for the gyro-remote Nintendo controller - it would be similar to trying to play Nintendogs or Pac-Pix without a touchscreen - and developing two entirely different gameplay mechanics for both the gyro-remote and a controller would be too costly.

So for many, I think the new Nintendo controller may defeat one of the purposes of gaming - the "chill" factor - as now you will need to be seated in a position where both arms/hands have full range of motion and will not get tired from frequent motion or being outstretched. Impractical, to say the least.

[David85]

You can sit anyway you want. The point Nintendo is trying to make is that they are trying to bring new fun to gaming. I have seen my cousins lay several PS2 games where all you do is move around the screen hitting a button killing things. What is the point of that?

You want to play "regular" games? Go spend twise as much on an Xbox or PS3 and play the same fucking games you are playing right now, just with a higher number after it ( or a 0 if it's a prequel).

Nintendo hopefully will have these great new types of games and the classic type for lazy developer that will jsut port games over.

[Reality's Fringe]

1. I never lie down and play my games. As a matter of fact, that sounds more uncomfortable than standing up and outsrtetching my arms completely to play a game. I don't know how people can do it from a prone position or from on their side. As for holding yopur arms out six inches, look at the of the controller/attatchment picture. Now, imagine that same distance going over your lap (which is how most people hold them anyway; sitting up, forearms rested over thighs). See? It functions exactly like a "normal" controller without a shell. It's the same thing. The picture just shows outstretched arms to show detail. Do you really think that box of Lucky Charms you just bought has 2 foot marshmallows in them because of the picture on the box? The only way I can think of it not working lying down is if you hold the sensor directly against your chest as if you were hugging it. I don't know anyone who plays games like that with a "normal" controler anyway.

2. Nintendo said there will be atatchment shells for it. I'm assuming they'll design their own shell which the main unit will slide into (mockup in one of the threads, I believe) which will not sacrifice the gyroscopic (sounds lie I'm taking a trip to Mars or something) capabilities. You can bitch about cost, but it wouldn't surprise me if Nintendo bundled such a shell with the system or a game.


I just think you're clutching at straws here to validate ill-will toward something you haven't tried. I'm a little skeptical myself, but I'm not going to make any decisive statements on its functionality and practicality until I try it myself.

[David85]

Read this from the topic this should be in....

Ok, first off, you will be able to sit down and play madden like you always do. There wont be any problems there. Sure, there will be games that involve movement and interaction on your part, but not all. Also, you wont have to have the two bits 6 inches apart or whatever, you can have them as close or as far as you want. The video shows how games can be played with high excitement and wild swings, but most will more than likely be played with small, swift movements... the kind you could do laying down or with your hands resting on your knees.

Your trying to make a point that by this controller existing, it makes all forms of games on that system complete workouts. uh, NO. Besides the fact that they will have regular controller available for the system (in essence), the remote+Analog combo is simply a regular controller, split in two. A REGULAR CONTROLLER, SPLIT IN TWO. Of course this controller can feel movements, but hey, thats why ITS A NEW CONTROLLER.

What do you people want? The same thing OVER and OVER and OVER again? Same fucking story, same fucking controls, same fucking ideas using the same fucking input device used in the last generation of consoles? Explain whats so special about the Xbox 360 controller. Or what Sony has done different with the PS3 controller (i dont care about the boomerang part, i mean a change in general AT ALL).

Damn Internet arguing is stupid and fun!

[Sleepkyng]

Man, I'm sure glad there's another thread about this, because there isn't a long cyclical conversation about this elsewhere...

nope, ever since the controller was announced, there hasn't been a big ass thread about the controller and the positives and negatives, speculation and facts.

[Ruined]

1. I never lie down and play my games. As a matter of fact, that sounds more uncomfortable than standing up and outsrtetching my arms completely to play a game. I don't know how people can do it from a prone position or from on their side. As for holding yopur arms out six inches, look at the of the controller/attatchment picture. Now, imagine that same distance going over your lap (which is how most people hold them anyway; sitting up, forearms rested over thighs). See? It functions exactly like a "normal" controller without a shell. It's the same thing. The picture just shows outstretched arms to show detail. Do you really think that box of Lucky Charms you just bought has 2 foot marshmallows in them because of the picture on the box? The only way I can think of it not working lying down is if you hold the sensor directly against your chest as if you were hugging it. I don't know anyone who plays games like that with a "normal" controler anyway.

2. Nintendo said there will be atatchment shells for it. I'm assuming they'll design their own shell which the main unit will slide into (mockup in one of the threads, I believe) which will not sacrifice the gyroscopic (sounds lie I'm taking a trip to Mars or something) capabilities. You can bitch about cost, but it wouldn't surprise me if Nintendo bundled such a shell with the system or a game.


I just think you're clutching at straws here to validate ill-will toward something you haven't tried. I'm a little skeptical myself, but I'm not going to make any decisive statements on its functionality and practicality until I try it myself.

1. So now you are going to tell me what is most comfortable for me when I'm playing games? Please. Many people "chill" when playing games, or aren't in sitting positions where arms are assymetical and have full range of motion with hands resting on lap. The main issue is that when laying down the "rest" position of your arms/hands would be incompatible with the "rest" position of the Rev controller since controller and hand positioning impacts gameplay.

2. An attachment shell won't be able to compensate for the massive gameplay differences that a gyroscopic controller would afford in games. The only way a game will be able to adapt to a "controller shell" is if two totally different versions of the game are programmed on one disc (very expensive as essentially 2 seperate games must be made inside every single game), or if the gyroscopic feature is incredibly underutilized. Again, it's like trying to say "just play Pac-Pix or Nintendogs with a controller instead of a touchscreen" - it just wouldn't work right unless they reprogrammed the game from scratch.

If anything I hope Nintendo cans this idea as the primary controller and instead makes it a first party addon.

[Ruined]

Man, I'm sure glad there's another thread about this, because there isn't a long cyclical conversation about this elsewhere...

nope, ever since the controller was announced, there hasn't been a big ass thread about the controller and the positives and negatives, speculation and facts.

That's exactly why I posted this in a new thread. The other thread has been hijacked by cyclical insults and BS, and this is a valid point to be discussed.

[Reality's Fringe]

1. So now you are going to tell me what is most comfortable for me when I'm playing games? Please. Many people "chill" when playing games, or aren't in sitting positions where arms are assymetical and have full range of motion with hands resting on lap. The main issue is that when laying down the "rest" position of your arms/hands would be incompatible with the "rest" position of the Rev controller since controller and hand positioning impacts gameplay.

So it's perfectly acceptable for you to assume that most people look like a modern art piece(aka "chill) when playing videogames, but if I say "I don't know anyone who does that" I'm making a sweeping generalization? The fact is, the only way for you to not be able to move your arms is if you are lying directly on your side with one of them pinned to the floor. Lying down on your back can't be an option unless your tv is on the ceiling, in which case you'll be fine because you can still move your left and right arm. On the side where your torso is twisted still gives you free motion if a bit limited. It seems that you think in order to play the game you have to wave yourarms around in sweeping arcs as in the advertisement video. The problem with that is that it's an advertisement. It's exaggerated

2. An attachment shell won't be able to compensate for the massive gameplay differences that a gyroscopic controller would afford in games. The only way a game will be able to adapt to a "controller shell" is if two totally different versions of the game are programmed on one disc, or if the gyroscopic feature is incredibly underutilized. Again, it's like trying to say "just play Pac-Pix or Nintendogs with a controller instead of a touchscreen" - it just wouldn't work right.

I don't see how it wouldn't. There would be movement compensation differences, but flicking the controller in an upward motion would still be read. So would tilting it or flicking it from side to side. The only difference is that it's confined to a shell, and if you're used to this gen's input devices then it shouldn't matter. The whole "DS without a touch screen" doesn't work because the Screen is a fundamental part of the system. Since the gyroscopic functions of the controller are still there, just with a slightly more limited range of motion, a better analogy would be playing those games with a bigger stylus.
Another question I would have to pose is who would want to buy a sword fighting game, where you know you're going to have to move your arms a little bit, when trying to "chill"?

[Ecofreak]

Coming from an HD user who frequents HDTV forums, I can assure you that Revolution's lack of HDTV support on games diminishes the chance of any HD owner even buying a Revolution in the first place.

It's great how you constantly make such broad generalizations w/o any way of backing it up, and it carries over to every argument you make.

And there's no reason you can't rest the controller on your lap and move the pointer with just your wrist. The demos were probably doing exaggerations so people could better understand how the controller is intended to be used.

[Ruined]

So it's perfectly acceptable for you to assume that most people look like a modern art piece(aka "chill) when playing videogames, but if I say "I don't know anyone who does that" I'm making a sweeping generalization? The fact is, the only way for you to not be able to move your arms is if you are lying directly on your side with your right/left arm pinned to the floor. Lying down on your back can't be an option unless your tv is on the ceiling, in which case you'll be fine because you can still move your left and right arm. On the side where your torso is twisted still gives you free motion if a bit limited. It seems that you think in order to play the game you have to wave yourarms around in sweeping arcs as in the advertisement video. The problem with that is that it's an advertisement. It's exaggerated

Whether its swinging your arms you minor hand movements, either way the positioning of your arms/hands will affect your performance in the game. That being said, when laying on your side/stomach, its difficult to even keep your hands still nevermind precisely moving them about. My generalization is that many people like to lay down or chill out when gaming, which is a very realistic generalization. What if you are just tired and don't feel like physically gaming? A large percentage, if not most, of the Revolution's library will be shut out to you.


I don't see how it wouldn't. There would be movement compensation differences, but flicking the controller in an upward motion would still be read. So would tilting it or flicking it from side to side. The only difference is that it's confined to a shell, and if you're used to this gen's input devices then it shouldn't matter. The whole "DS without a touche screen" doesn't work because the Screen is a fundamental part of the system. Since the gyroscopic functions of the controller are still there, just with a slightly more limited range of motion, a better analogy would be playing those games with a bigger stylus.

Slightly more limited? You are going from two devices that sit seperately in each hand to one unified device that is unified and held with both hands. If games play anything like the demonstrations shown (exaggerations withheld) this will not translate well at all. Major difference.

But this is all irrelevant anyway, because even if some perfect conversion was somehow possible in the controller shell the games would still be sensitive to motion, and hence you would still not be able to lay down and "chill" playing games.

Another question I would have to pose is who would want to buy a sword fighting game, where you know you're going to have to move your arms a little bit, when trying to "chill"?

A better question is will what options will people have to buy aside from "active" games when the main controller is primarily designed for "active" gaming? It does not sound like buying a Revolution alone would be suitable for the average person.

[drumbandit]

Have you read all the hands-on impressions?

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3143782

It always shot exactly where it felt like I was aiming, and was incredibly responsive to even slight wrist movements-I barely had to move my hand at all.

At first, I was standing up and swinging my hand all around to aim - and my arms got really tired really quick. But once I sat down and relaxed, resting my hands on my legs as I would with a normal controller, everything clicked

As odd as it may look holding the two separate controller pieces, one in each hand, looking around felt incredibly natural, even more than my preferred PC-style keyboard-and-mouse setup.

Sure, we won't know for certain till we get our hands on it ourselves, but all the hands-on impressions really put my mind at ease. They all say pretty much the same thing, from IGN to Gamespot.


Also, just thought I'd note that the cord between the two halves is actually longer than in that pic. (See the video) It's just shortened to look cleaner in the display photos, like they always do with controllers.

[Quackzilla]

And there's no reason you can't rest the controller on your lap and move the pointer with just your wrist.
The Guy Game 2

[Ruined]

It's great how you constantly make such broad generalizations w/o any way of backing it up, and it carries over to every argument you make.

My generalizations are very realistic. Yes, people with an HDTV will look for a game console that supports HDTV - that is common sense. And yes, people don't all sit with perfect posture when playing games, and some like to lay down. That is also common sense.


And there's no reason you can't rest the controller on your lap and move the pointer with just your wrist. The demos were probably doing exaggerations so people could better understand how the controller is intended to be used.

You don't have access to your lap when you're laying down.

[dcfox]

Who stands while playing on the computer?

Anyways, lying down while playing may suffice for games like Harvest Moon or Animal Crossing, where the intention of the game is to relax you. But when I'm playing Madden, NFS, or Halo I want that game to get me excited. The more the game pulls me in the better. If you ever played a heated game of Madden or Mario Party with a room full of people, than you know that room is full of action. People are standing up moving their arms in conjunction to the action on the screen. The same thing can happen in single player games. I know I'm not the only one who tilts the controller while trying to make a sharp turn in a racing game, thinking it will help. The only difference is with the revolution all that will actually make an impact on the game.

[Ruined]

Have you read all the hands-on impressions?

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3143782

The fact that you barely have to move your hand at all for the game to register input bodes just as badly as having to move your hand a lot. When laying down your hands essentially have no rest position so they will always be moving at least slightly (this is different when sitting as the controller can rest in your lap). Try laying on your side and holding one controller in each hand still for 30 minutes - now picture your success in a game based on how precisely you keep that controller positioned. That is the problem with the Rev controller and trying to "chill" when playing games.

[Sleepkyng]

so you're telling me that you will side step and ignore a totally new gaming experience, in fact, a whole new interface because you're worried you can't play it laying down?

I guess if I want to relax, I just have a beer and play street fighter II on my snes.

[Ruined]

so you're telling me that you will side step and ignore a totally new gaming experience, in fact, a whole new interface because you're worried you can't play it laying down?

I guess if I want to relax, I just have a beer and play street fighter II on my snes.

I might try it, but it certainly won't be my primary console - and I don't have room to keep lots of consoles around like SNES, I generally only have 2 in my family room at once, which I generally buy tons of games for. The XBOX360/PS3 jus seem more practical, and I'm sure they will have their fair share of "active" games with peripheral addons as opposed to the console utilizing an "active" controller for its primary.

[Ecofreak]

My generalizations are very realistic. Yes, people with an HDTV will look for a game console that supports HDTV - that is common sense. And yes, people don't all sit with perfect posture when playing games, and some like to lay down. That is also common sense.


Alright - so give me some figures to prove a point. Otherwise, you're just pulling stuff out of the air.

And you say "many" people play laying on their stomachs. Just "how many"? Does everyone you know play games on their stomachs? 'Cause all my friends play sitting up. So I say "hardly anyone" plays on their stomachs.

[Ecofreak]

I can't believe that we're arguing about whether or not the Revolution will be condusive to playing while lying down.

And btw, what about people who play PC games? Don't they have to sit up while playing games? Oops, suddenly a whole demographic is lost due to posture.

If people want to play the Revolution, they'll play it in a position that is condusive to them. If they don't - then that's their decision and they'll be missing out on a unique gaming experience and that's their loss.

Unless they have back problems that prevents them from sitting up, not playing the Revolution because of such a reason is shallow and ridiculous. At best.

[help1]

Im not a fan of teh controller, but you could still lay down and play:

http://cubemedia.ign.com/cube/image/article/651/651559/understanding-the-revolution-controller-20050916041026412-000.jpg

[Ecofreak]

Im not a fan of teh controller, but you could still lay down and play:



I think he's referring specifically to the pointer-only configuration - not in a controller configuration.

[drumbandit]

Point is, you can chill in a recliner just fine and still use the controller. That's what I do and that's what everyone else I see play games does. Either that or just slouching on a couch. I've tried laying on my side plenty of times, but the orientation is always weird for me and my arm never fails to fall asleep.


I think you're just developed on odd habit in that, but yeah, I agree laying sideways wouldn't work well at all. But I don't think it works with a normal controller either. :lol:

[Javery]

A lot of people play games when they have some free time and want to relax - often they are tired, burnt out from work, etc, and just want to lay down, chill out, and play a game.

But think about it, this is not really possible when using the new Nintendo controller. When laying down on your side or on your stomach (common positions for playing games when not sitting), your arms and hands have a limited range of motion. In addition to that, keeping your arms outstretched and 6" apart link (http://forums.nintendo.com/nintendo/board/message?board.id=revolution&message.id=447034) - the positioning required to use the new Nintendo controller - is uncomfortable and quickly fatiguing when laying on your side/stomach. On top of all this, the outcome of your success in the game depends on your physical positioning. So if you just want to kick back, lay down, and game, you will probably get sore arms and frustrated using the new Nintendo controller.

One of the major advantages of using a console over a PC is that you are able to relax on your couch and play a game. (on a PC you need to sit/stand to operate a keyboard/mouse). This advantage is lost with the new Nintendo controller, as you will be restricted to certain positions similar to a PC (probably sitting or standing) in order to succeed at the game without giving yourself muscle cramps.

In addition, there likely will be no option to use a standard controller for games that are made for the gyro-remote Nintendo controller - it would be similar to trying to play Nintendogs or Pac-Pix without a touchscreen - and developing two entirely different gameplay mechanics for both the gyro-remote and a controller would be too costly.

So for many, I think the new Nintendo controller may defeat one of the purposes of gaming - the "chill" factor - as now you will need to be seated in a position where both arms/hands have full range of motion and will not get tired from frequent motion or being outstretched. Impractical, to say the least.

Then go buy a PS3 or 360.

[daroga]

There's a false distinction being drawn here between chilling and sitting down. So you can't sit and chill? If I lay down and try to play a game, my neck crinks up and I don't have the reflexes I'd like to play a decent action game. If you like to play games lying down, good for you. And if the Revolution ends up not working for how you like to play, that's fine too. Don't buy it.

Just remember that your preferences are not the only ones out there, nor are they the "right" ones. Nintendo is looking to get some new people in to the game market and are trying something new. Even if you don't like it or can't use it (both of which at this point are totally ludicrous claims since you've never even used the thing), go ahead and buy something different. Not every system will cater to every person. Find what you like and stick with it. But until you get your hands on it, let's just wait and see what the constant innovators at Nintendo have up their sleeves.

daroga

[Reality's Fringe]

Whether its swinging your arms you minor hand movements, either way the positioning of your arms/hands will affect your performance in the game. That being said, when laying on your side/stomach, its difficult to even keep your hands still nevermind precisely moving them about. My generalization is that many people like to lay down or chill out when gaming, which is a very realistic generalization. What if you are just tired and don't feel like physically gaming? A large percentage, if not most, of the Revolution's library will be shut out to you.

This is a statement that seems geared toward someone who is an invalid, or who has worked a 14 hour day building houses. How many of those people do you think are going to want to play videogames instead of sleep? How many people are going to be so physically fatigued that they can't exert the same amount of energy it takes to use a WASD interface, or play a heated console fighting game? It's not a realistic assumption.

Slightly more limited? You are going from two devices that sit seperately in each hand to one unified device that is unified and held with both hands. If games play anything like the demonstrations shown (exaggerations withheld) this will not translate well at all. Major difference.

But this is all irrelevant anyway, because even if some perfect conversion was somehow possible in the controller shell the games would still be sensitive to motion, and hence you would still not be able to lay down and "chill" playing games.

You can't hold away the exaggerations because they seem to be a cornerstone of your arguement. You say that you won't be able to chill with all this movement, but if the movement is negligible then there's no problem. As I said before hand, you can move your srms and wrists from any position where you're no physicall pinning your extremeties to the floor. As stated before, flicking your wrist takes a smuch effort as holding L1 and pressing square. As for bringing two units together, it wouldn't change much. You don't move the analog attatchment, so it wouldn't matter if you brought the two together as the gyroscope still works within the shell. The only problem then would be a person who doesn't have any motorskills trying to tilt the controller and press "A". If there's a game which utilizes two motion sensitive units (left and right hands) then you can still use it from any of the positions described above. I'd like to know what position your talking about to where it'd be overly difficult to use.

A better question is will what options will people have to buy aside from "active" games when the main controller is primarily designed for "active" gaming? It does not sound like buying a Revolution alone would be suitable for the average person.
Unknown. If you want a "Real" controller then that's one shell for sure. However, I'm positive that Nintendo (In keeping with recent practices) will bundle it with something. I also doubt a shell would run more than $10-$15 tops.

[Brak]

Not all games will rely on the quirky features and capabilities of the new controller. So, there will still be lay down and play titles -- third party titles.

[whiteboy]

In addition, there likely will be no option to use a standard controller for games that are made for the gyro-remote Nintendo controller - it would be similar to trying to play Nintendogs or Pac-Pix without a touchscreen - and developing two entirely different gameplay mechanics for both the gyro-remote and a controller would be too costly.
http://media.cube.ign.com/articles/651/651559/img_3077147.html

That about ends your rant in that picture. Its not official but IGN quickly threw together that controller from the details they got about it. You can still move the controller to use the motion sensing controls though its probably not as comfortable.

[GuilewasNK]

Just wow.

I'll reserve complete judgement till this thing comes out but...for a design that radical, they better know what they are doing. I don't care for it when companies make things different just for the sake of being different. As long as that isn't the motivation then maybe things will turn out ok.

[Hovercraft]

i like lieing in my recliner with a balnket oevr me. so that might not work

[Weedy649]

lol Ruined your an idiot. First of all, if your "tired, burnt out" and want to relax while playing video games, you can just use your Wavebird and play one of your gamecube games, or even a game you downloaded via WiFi.

Secondly, how much time do you spend gaming per week? I know the answers on this message board are much higher than the average person. Your telling me your always burnt out and thats the only reason you play games? No, its that your a lazy fuck and any sort of movement or excercise makes you run in fear at the thought that you might lose 1 pound while having fun.


The Nintendogs and Pac Pix without a touch screen analogy is just stupid. It would actually be more like playing a Gun light game(like House of the Dead) without a Gun and using the controller instead.....which is possible! You can use a Racing Wheel for Mario Kart, doesnt mean it doesnt work without the normal controller.

To top it all off, you seem to lose the point of videogames as a whole. Games are made for you to enjoy, in otherwords have fun. How fun can games be if all you keep getting is better graphics, hackneyed storyline and a controller that is slightly different from your previous controller, only enough so that you have to fork out more money to own a set of four.

Nintendo is trying something new, and at the same time you can keep the old. The fact that it allows attachments, means that the revolution controller will be able to come out with many things that can accomodate many players, even lazy ones like you.

Go spend 425 bucks for a system alone after tax. just so you can use it on HDTV when you want to "relax". I on the other hand will pick up a much cheaper revolution that i can enjoy in a way i havent enjoyed games for the last 15 years, and pay half of that :-p

[Ruined]

Alright - so give me some figures to prove a point. Otherwise, you're just pulling stuff out of the air.

Give me some figures to disprove it, otherwise you're pulling from the same stuff in order to counter me. I think it would be irrational to argue against either of my statements - people like to use what they spent $2000+ on (HDTV) and people like to relax (lay down). Again, common sense.

And you say "many" people play laying on their stomachs. Just "how many"? Does everyone you know play games on their stomachs? 'Cause all my friends play sitting up. So I say "hardly anyone" plays on their stomachs.

For some reason I think it's pretty common (google images first page)

http://www.the4cs.com/~corin/photos/2003/FamilyGatheringChristmas2003/screen/2003122715181.JPG

http://www.jazzcat.co.za/nielen/p_ch/images/Kuier%20-%2050.JPG

http://pawpawgrumpy.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/p8160037.jpg

[Ruined]

lol Ruined your an idiot.

Often people start to call names when they know they've lost a debate.

[Ecofreak]

Give me some figures to disprove it, otherwise you're pulling from the same stuff in order to counter me. I think it would be irrational to argue against either of my statements - people like to use what they spent $2000+ on (HDTV) and people like to relax (lay down). Again, common sense.


Thank you - you just proved my point. If you can't find facts to back up your own arguments then they're automatically invalid. That's like me saying that Buddhism is the religion with the most followers, you disagreeing with me, and then me telling you to disprove my argument. Debate just doesn't work like that.

Don't ever become an engineer, scientist, or lawyer. Please. If we make statements, we at least have some preliminary figures to back up what we say. Otherwise, you're just stating opinions.

And just because you found 3 pictures of people lying down while playing a game does not represent what percentage of the gaming community plays sitting up.

Seriously, you find some figures and then talk.

[Ruined]

Thank you - you just proved my point. If you can't find facts to back up your own arguments then they're automatically invalid. Otherwise, what's to stop people from making totally crazy statements?

Don't ever become an engineer, scientist, or lawyer. Please. If we make statements, we at least have some preliminary figures to back up what we say. Otherwise, you're just stating opinions.

And just because you found 3 pictures of people lying down while playing a game does not represent what percentage of the gaming community plays sitting up.

Seriously, you find some figures and then talk.

This is a forum, the entire point of it is to share opinions, not rocket science. :)

[Ecofreak]

This is a forum, the entire point of it is to share opinions, not rocket science. :)

Now you're avoiding my challenge entirely.

You, sir, have been defeated.

Find some serious figures - a poll of 1000 HDTV players with each person getting one vote and pose the question in a non-biased way. Then we'll talk. Otherwise, you're argument holds no water.

[Ruined]

Now you're avoiding my point entirely.

You, sir, have been defeated.

What has been defeated exactly? Also, what is your point? That you want a scientific study on how many gamers lay down playing games?? I don't think that's at the top of the list in scientific research currently.

[Ecofreak]

Coming from an HD user who frequents HDTV forums, I can assure you that Revolution's lack of HDTV support on games diminishes the chance of any HD owner even buying a Revolution in the first place.


Good grief. Look at the quote above. What justification do you have to give any assurance that the Rev's lack of HDTV support will diminish the chance of any HD owner even buying a Revolution in the first place?

Unless you have some numbers (gathered in a non-biased way) to back up such a huge argument, it is not valid.

[Weedy649]

Ecofreak just forget it, let the thread die along with his opinions. For a moment here things looked like the VS forum, Ruined obviously doesnt like the controller, or the system itself, so why bother posting on the Nintendo forum when he wouldnt like it even if the controller were different? I think you know the answer

I made perfectly valid points about what was wrong with what he said, and all he could say is, "oh you called me an idiot thats not cool". This is nothing but a flame thread based on silly things like "what about these 3 people who play on their stomach, what are they to do?!"

[Ruined]

Good grief. Look at the quote above. What justification do you have to give any assurance that the Rev's lack of HDTV support will diminish the chance of any HD owner even buying a Revolution in the first place?

Unless you have some numbers (gathered in a non-biased way) to back up such a huge argument, it is not valid.

http://1080up.org/

[Ecofreak]

Ecofreak just forget it, let the thread die along with his opinions. For a moment here things looked like the VS forum, Ruined obviously doesnt like the controller, or the system itself, so why bother posting on the Nintendo forum when he wouldnt like it even if the controller were different? I think you know the answer

I made perfectly valid points about what was wrong with what he said, and all he could say is, "oh you called me an idiot thats not cool". This is nothing but a flame thread based on silly things like "what about these 3 people who play on their stomach, what are they to do?!"

Oh, I knew it would turn out this way from the start. But I like to think that you can talk sense to people and eventually get past their stubborness.

One can always dream...

[Ruined]

Oh, I knew it would turn out this way from the start. But I like to think that you can talk sense to people and eventually get past their stubborness.

One can always dream...

Have you ever thought that someone else might be the stubborn one here that is not being rational? I came up with a common scenario about relaxing while gaming and some of you are asking for scientific information about the number of people that lie down while gaming, which is pretty ridiculous.

[Sleepkyng]

dude, you started a thread saying the Revolution defeats the purpose of console gaming.

then you say that you won't be able to lie down and relax with the new controller.

This blanket statment is just garbage, clearly plenty of people play consoles for plenty of different reasons. You thread should be "Hey, I like to lie down when I play games, guess I'm not gonna get a Revolution"

but it isn't, it's a flamebait topic that sucks and makes you look like a chode.

[Ruined]

dude, you started a thread saying the Revolution defeats the purpose of console gaming.

then you say that you won't be able to lie down and relax with the new controller.

This blanket statment is just garbage, clearly plenty of people play consoles for plenty of different reasons. You thread should be "Hey, I like to lie down when I play games, guess I'm not gonna get a Revolution"

but it isn't, it's a flamebait topic that sucks and makes you look like a chode.

I had a question mark in my topic, if you noticed, and I discussed how it could not be possible to really relax or lie down while playing with a Revolution controller, and further that a lot of people play games to relax. Why is this "flamebait," its rational thinking. It's also humorous that the only people calling names are the ones who think lieing down while gaming is such a radical idea.

[Sleepkyng]

and you don't have room for a SNES... that's too bad, I give a flying fuck.

Console gaming for me includes as a necessity includes an SNES, without one there isn't any reason to be a console gamer. <- I AM NOT SAYING EVERYONE HAS TO HAVE IT THIS WAY, AND THUS I WON'T START A RETARDED TOPIC ABOUT IT.

[Ecofreak]

Have you ever thought that someone else might be the stubborn one here that is not being rational? I came up with a common scenario about relaxing while gaming and some of you are asking for scientific information about the number of people that lie down while gaming, which is pretty ridiculous.

Nope - you're the stubborn one b/c you stubbornly stick by your assertion without having anything to back it up. When people who know how to debate are in this situation and recognize it, they would have let it go and move onto another argument. My girlfriend is a state champion in debate - I've lost to her countless times. Trust me - this is how you play the game so either learn the rules or move on.

And don't change the topic to my girlfriend all of a sudden. Focus on my main point.

[Ruined]

and you don't have room for a SNES... that's too bad, I give a flying fuck.

Console gaming for me includes as a necessity includes an SNES, without one there isn't any reason to be a console gamer. <- I AM NOT SAYING EVERYONE HAS TO HAVE IT THIS WAY, AND THUS I WON'T START A RETARDED TOPIC ABOUT IT.

That's fine, but when one spends $300+ on a new Revolution console with games, controllers, memory cards, etc, don't you think its a little strange that one would have to keep around an age-old SNES just to play something when they relax?

I can see how Revolution's controller can be fun sometimes. I just don't see how it can practically be something I'd want to use most of the time.

[Ruined]

Nope - you're the stubborn one b/c you stubbornly stick by your assertion without having anything to back it up.

Again, you are asking for scientific evidence that is obviously something no scientist would waste money or time every studying because it has no point.


When people who know how to debate are in this situation and recognize it, they would have let it go and move onto another argument. My girlfriend is a state champion in debate - I've lost to her countless times. Trust me - this is how you play the game so either learn the rules or move on.

The only reason there is a debate here is because some can't seem to accept the likely fact that in many situations the Revolution controller won't be practical. This is simply by nature of its design. The "evidence" and "backup" you are asking for (scientific studies on seating position) is ridiculous.

[dastly75]

I dont lay down on my stomach often while playing games but I can still imagine being able to play regardless. But I probably wouldnt do that at all because my neck would start hurting like mad after a short while.

[Sleepkyng]

That's fine, but when one spends $300+ on a new Revolution console with games, controllers, memory cards, etc, don't you think its a little strange that one would have to keep around an age-old SNES just to play something when they relax?

I can see how Revolution's controller can be fun sometimes. I just don't see how it can practically be something I'd want to use most of the time.

what the hell are you talking about?

that's my point exactly. It is your individual opinion about one preference in regards to gaming.

you like to lie down when you play, I like to bust out my SNES every time I play videogames (think of it as a warm up) - nothing will every replace my snes.

You don't see how the Revolution will work for you, and that's fine. But that doesn't mean it may defeat the purpose of console gaming - because there is no one purpose.

some people who own consoles only play sports games, does the release of other games defeat the purpose of gaming for them?

Your opinion is valid for you, but as a catch all discussion topic, it is boring and totally not worth discussing.

It's like me saying that the stylus on the DS defeats the purpose of handheld gaming because I can't just use the D-pad, which to me is much more relaxing.

[Ecofreak]

Again, you are asking for scientific evidence that is obviously something no scientist would waste money or time every studying because it has no point.



The only reason there is a debate here is because some can't seem to accept the likely fact that in many situations the Revolution controller won't be practical. This is simply by nature of its design. The "evidence" and "backup" you are asking for (scientific studies on seating position) is ridiculous.


Good grief. I am asking you for numbers - not a scientific study. Why don't you put up a poll in that HDTV forum you frequent so much and pose the statement you are asking in a non-biased question. Get 1000 responses and then come back.

If you are so serious about defending this argument, then make the freakin' poll. It takes 5 minutes and should be completed in a week.

[adamsappel]

Ruined, I am an HDTV owner and I can't wait to get the Revolution. You seem to equate "HDTV owner" with "graphics whore who can't enjoy a console for its games." If you won't buy a Revolution because you like to game lying down and you THINK that playing with the new controller will be a problem, fine. As has been pointed out to you, you can use the original GC controller if you desire. Myself, I see a new horizon of sloth wherein I can lay my hands at my sides and still game competently with only the smallest twitches of my wrist and thumbs.

[Genocidal]

For some reason I think it's pretty common (google images first page)

http://www.the4cs.com/~corin/photos/2003/FamilyGatheringChristmas2003/screen/2003122715181.JPG (http://www.the4cs.com/%7Ecorin/photos/2003/FamilyGatheringChristmas2003/screen/2003122715181.JPG)

http://www.jazzcat.co.za/nielen/p_ch/images/Kuier%20-%2050.JPG

http://pawpawgrumpy.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/p8160037.jpg

The tripod image wouldn't load, so I can't judge that one.

In the first image, the kid still has movement of both of his hands, and since the controller will supposedly need little movement, I don't see any problem with him using the new controller.

In your second image, the guy is leaning on the arm that would be holding the analog stick or other add-on... the part of the controller WITHOUT the motion sensor. His other arm is completely free. And before you argue "Well, he could easily be laying on his other arm" take another look at the picture. He still has movement of his forearm and wrist, which is all that should be needed to move the controller around.

The only thing your images have done is proved that the Revolution controller won't be any harder to use while laying down than while sitting up.

[Ecofreak]

I should also note that my father owns a 60 inch HDTV player which I use for my PS2 when I come home during the vacations. If the Revolution does give a truly unique gaming experience, I am getting a Revolution on launch. Graphics take a back seat for me.

So you have two people saying they own HDTVs and are going to get a Revolution to your one opinion (yourself). Looks like your assertion is false based on this little poll in this discussion.

[Rocko]

I feel for you if you have to be able to 'relax' while playing all your games. That must not be very fun.

[dastly75]

Yeah my parents have an HDTV and I've hooked up my xbox with the HD cables to it and that's cool and all but graphics really don't mean that much to me. At least nothing compared to the gameplay.

IMO, the nintendo revolution is the reason why console gaming is still so refreshing

[Ecofreak]

Yeah my parents have an HDTV and I've hooked up my xbox with the HD cables to it and that's cool and all but graphics really don't mean that much to me. At least nothing compared to the gameplay.

IMO, the nintendo revolution is the reason why console gaming is still so refreshing

Jigga yea!

[Dr Mario Kart]

Yes, i can accept that the controller may alienate both, some people, who care about HDTVs, who want to recline, and some developers, who may not want to take risks on a new thing.

Yes, I accept that this may affect Nintendo's market share.

However,....I just dont care. Nintendo has always been about doing their own thing, disregarding whatever they would like to disregard.

No one is making anyone buy it. No one is making anyone develop for it. We can agree to disagree, and move on. Seriously.

[Xtreme331]

Well it seems Nintendo is at least generating a LOT of talk about their controller. I mean, honestly, how many topics do we need about this controller?

And to be perfectly honest, a lot of the arguments floating around about this controller (and related stuff) are mind-numbingly retarded. But by all means, go right ahead.

[punqsux]

A lot of people play games when they have some free time and want to relax - often they are tired, burnt out from work, etc, and just want to lay down, chill out, and play a game.

But think about it, this is not really possible when using the new Nintendo controller. When laying down on your side or on your stomach (common positions for playing games when not sitting), your arms and hands have a limited range of motion. In addition to that, keeping your arms outstretched and 6" apart link (http://forums.nintendo.com/nintendo/board/message?board.id=revolution&message.id=447034) - the positioning required to use the new Nintendo controller - is uncomfortable and quickly fatiguing when laying on your side/stomach. On top of all this, the outcome of your success in the game depends on your physical positioning. So if you just want to kick back, lay down, and game, you will probably get sore arms and frustrated using the new Nintendo controller.

One of the major advantages of using a console over a PC is that you are able to relax on your couch and play a game. (on a PC you need to sit/stand to operate a keyboard/mouse). This advantage is lost with the new Nintendo controller, as you will be restricted to certain positions similar to a PC (probably sitting or standing) in order to succeed at the game without giving yourself muscle cramps.

In addition, there likely will be no option to use a standard controller for games that are made for the gyro-remote Nintendo controller - it would be similar to trying to play Nintendogs or Pac-Pix without a touchscreen - and developing two entirely different gameplay mechanics for both the gyro-remote and a controller would be too costly.

So for many, I think the new Nintendo controller may defeat one of the purposes of gaming - the "chill" factor - as now you will need to be seated in a position where both arms/hands have full range of motion and will not get tired from frequent motion or being outstretched. Impractical, to say the least.


i dont know about what most gamers do, but i almost exclusively play games on chairs or couches.

i find it impossible to play a game when laying my my side, and havent played a game laying on my stomach since i was a kid and my grandmother had a floor model TV.

on top of which, i dont undertstand the part of your post about the arms being required to be outstretched and 6 inches apart, that just dosent seem realistic, what if you should move to 4 or 8 inches while plaing a game (we all move are hands) what if you were to bend your elbows? such restrictions are not going to be an issue.

OH, and did you just forget about the whole "standard" controller for boring old games? :lol:

people are just looking for reasons to bitch about this controller

[punqsux]

If anything I hope Nintendo cans this idea as the primary controller and instead makes it a first party addon.
that would doom the revolution to the mediocrity the gamecube has suffered.

[Ruined]

Yeah my parents have an HDTV and I've hooked up my xbox with the HD cables to it and that's cool and all but graphics really don't mean that much to me. At least nothing compared to the gameplay.

IMO, recently graphics and sound have become a part of gameplay. I refer to this as the "immersion" factor. For instance, if you took Halo and converted it to NES graphics and sound, it wouldn't be as fun to play. Not because the dynamic of the gameplay is any different, but because part of the enjoyment of the gameplay experience in that game comes from the immersion provided by the graphics, sounds, and environments.

Also, in some extreme cases, graphics and sound are the gameplay. Games like Dance Dance Revolution, Rez, Gitaroo Man, Fantavision, Lumines, Space Channel 5, Frequency, Amplitude, and more would be much less fun to play if the graphics and/or sound were greatly diminished or removed as primary roles in the game.

I tend to think "gameplay is more important graphics" is a knee-jerk reaction for people who are tired of individuals frothing over a crappy game just because it has great graphics, while they pass over the good game with poor graphics. That being said, saying that gameplay is more important than graphics is a falsehood as graphics could now be considered a part of gameplay due to their immersive factor.

In this case, it could be argued that Nintendo's controller also provides a higher level of "immersion" with the game, thereby enhancing the gameplay... I'm just not sure it is practical or something I would want on most of my games.

[JSweeney]

Did I just accidentally log in to Gamefaqs again?

[Dr Mario Kart]

Maybe graphics makes it easier to get immersed in something, but I wouldnt go much further beyond that.

If you've grown up a gamer, you've probably been immersed in games from any of the various previous generations.

You can also get immersed in a book, which has no graphics(necessarily)

[.JPG]

Im not a fan of teh controller, but you could still lay down and play:

http://cubemedia.ign.com/cube/image/article/651/651559/understanding-the-revolution-controller-20050916041026412-000.jpg

Yes, Nintendo mentioned the fact of a sort of Docking Station. IGN made the controller and what it may look like just to give an example, this is in no way a confirmed picture.

But it could give you an idea of what to expect.

[Ruined]

Maybe graphics makes it easier to get immersed in something, but I wouldnt go much further beyond that.

If you've grown up a gamer, you've probably been immersed in games from any of the various previous generations.

You can also get immersed in a book, which has no graphics(necessarily)

Ah, but that is why they also have movies. They are different experiences.

Sure. you could get immersed by playing a Zork text adventure, but it is a vastly different experience than playing Halo using my example from above. While you could play Zork with any font or type of graphics (as long as it was legible) and have the same amount of fun, you couldn't play Halo in its current form with NES quality graphics and have the same amount of fun. This has nothing to do with the quality of gameplay of either title, but rather because part of the gameplay of Halo is getting the player's adrenaline pumped and immersing them in a scifi world - something that Halo's gameplay uses visual effects and sounds to accomplish (as opposed to text to read). Therefore in Halo's case, and many other modern games, graphics and sound have become a part of the gameplay - as graphics and sound have come so far that they can be realistic now instead of blobs and bleeps.

[evilmax17]

Since when was the purpose of console gaming to relax? Sounds like you're making up your own definitions.

[JSweeney]

Ah, but that is why they also have movies. They are different experiences.

Sure. you could get immersed by playing a Zork text adventure, but it is a vastly different experience than playing Halo using my example from above. While you could play Zork with any font or type of graphics (as long as it was legible) and have the same amount of fun, you couldn't play Halo in its current form with NES quality graphics and have the same amount of fun. This has nothing to do with the quality of gameplay of either title, but rather because part of the gameplay of Halo is getting the player's adrenaline pumped and immersing them in a scifi world - something that Halo's gameplay uses visual effects and sounds to accomplish (as opposed to text to read). Therefore in Halo's case, and many other modern games, graphics and sound have become a part of the gameplay - as graphics and sound have come so far that they can be realistic now instead of blobs and bleeps.

Really, so since when has Wolfenstien 3D stopped being fun? I must have missed the memo.

[Ruined]

Since when was the purpose of console gaming to relax? Sounds like you're making up your own definitions.

Not the purpose but a purpose, in other words one of the reasons people would play a video game in the first place.

[Ruined]

Really, so since when has Wolfenstien 3D stopped being fun? I must have missed the memo.

? I never said that or even implied it. Reread my post.

Halo would never work on the WOLF3D engine, nor are the two even remotely similar other than being from the same genre if either is what you are implying.

[punqsux]

Really, so since when has Wolfenstien 3D stopped being fun? I must have missed the memo.
n00ber, itz teh old, sew itz not fun anym0re!1

[Dr Mario Kart]

I think Halo would be fine with N64 grade 3d, or even Duke Nukem grade 3d.

[Ruined]

I think Halo would be fine with N64 grade 3d, or even Duke Nukem grade 3d.

Now you are simply qualifying based on your own standards of immersion.

[JSweeney]

Not the purpose but a purpose, in other words one of the reasons people would play a video game in the first place.

I thought the purpose of console gaming was to offer a simplified, less expensive variant of Arcade or Computer gaming... you get a simplified version of the same product at a drastically reduced cost. :lol:

[Ruined]

n00ber, itz teh old, sew itz not fun anym0re!1

omgz imz s0 c000l cuz i hve teh 2600z!!!11one!!11 c64 FTW!11one!

Works both ways :p

[Ruined]

I thought the purpose of console gaming was to offer a simplified, less expensive variant of Arcade or Computer gaming... you get a simplified version of the same product at a drastically reduced cost. :lol:

Well if that is true then Nintendo's controller still defeats the purpose of console gaming since this controller technically makes it a more complex variant of arcade or gaming ;) Anyway, nuances aside, I think you get the point.

[JSweeney]

? I never said that or even implied it. Reread my post.

Halo would never work on the WOLF3D engine, nor are the two even remotely similar other than being from the same genre if either is what you are implying.

Funny, most of the same mechanics that make Halo actually fun exist here, and look, it's right between NES and SNES graphics, and it's just as fun as Halo. Perish the thought!!

Game design is still more important to how fun a game is than graphics.
Solid game design endure, and the game can remain fun even after the graphics are antiquated. Pong isn't any less fun today than it was on it's release. Super Mario Brothers is still great for an afternoon of fun, despite it's ancient graphics.

[Dr Mario Kart]

Now you are simply qualifying based on your own standards of immersion.

If you tell us that graphics help immersion, then you are using someones standard for immersion.

There isnt a standard immersion quotient that we can calculate for these things, its all down to opinion.

I'm going to say that there is one level of immersion called, "complete immersion" or "near complete immersion".

And I'll go further to say that people achieved this level with both Duke Nukem 3d and Goldeneye

[Sleepkyng]

All I read in this thread are Ruined's stupid arguments and EVERYONE else shooting him down.

give it a rest, man.

or keep digging.

[punqsux]

omgz imz s0 c000l cuz i hve teh 2600z!!!11one!!11 c64 FTW!11one!

Works both ways :p
i dont have a 2600, i have a 7800 (2 actully)

get with the timez ^^

[Dr Mario Kart]

I can understand why there are a lot of reasons why one would not like this new stuff. However, just because a subset of people dont like it, you shouldnt trivialize it and say its a gimmick or that it defeats the purpose of console gaming. Since there are a lot of people who are fine with it and may have a different philosophy on console gaming.

[JSweeney]

Well if that is true then Nintendo's controller still defeats the purpose of console gaming since this controller technically makes it a more complex variant of arcade or gaming ;) Anyway, nuances aside, I think you get the point.

Not according to the press reports, as the usage of the controller has been made out to be incredibly simple to learn for most of the "non-standard" applications of the controller. Point and click is still easier than a combination of button presses.

Unless the purpose of console gaming is to be exclusive and exclusionary, than simplying the method of control is only enhancing the purpose of console gaming... entertaining the player. There are more "non-hardcore" gamers and non gamers in the world than there are gamers.

[Ruined]

Funny, most of the same mechanics that make Halo actually fun exist here, and look, it's right between NES and SNES graphics, and it's just as fun as Halo. Perish the thought!!

It's not "just as fun as Halo", it's a far different experience.

Game design is still more important to how fun a game is than graphics.
Solid game design endure, and the game can remain fun even after the graphics are antiquated. Pong isn't any less fun today than it was on it's release. Super Mario Brothers is still great for an afternoon of fun, despite it's ancient graphics.

I'll put it a different way so maybe it will not trigger the "graphics vs. gameplay" knee-jerk reaction most have. More recently graphics and sound have become realistic enough that developers can use them to the point where they are a part of the gameplay and storyline.

[JSweeney]

? I never said that or even implied it. Reread my post.

Halo would never work on the WOLF3D engine, nor are the two even remotely similar other than being from the same genre if either is what you are implying.

I must be easier to deal with arguments if you edit them after they've been replied to.

[Ruined]

Not according to the press reports, as the usage of the controller has been made out to be incredibly simple to learn for most of the "non-standard" applications of the controller. Point and click is still easier than a combination of button presses.

Unless the purpose of console gaming is to be exclusive and exclusionary, than simplying the method of control is only enhancing the purpose of console gaming... entertaining the player. There are more "non-hardcore" gamers and non gamers in the world than there are gamers.

I fail to see how adding an extra dimensional layer on top of standard gaming controls (which are also present on the revolution) is "more simplified." It may look more slick or appear less cluttered, but in terms of physical interaction it's actually more complex.

[Ruined]

I must be easier to deal with arguments if you edit them after they've been replied to.

Considering your reply came 4 minutes after my edit according to the forum time of my edit and your reply, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[JSweeney]

It's not "just as fun as Halo", it's a far different experience.

How?
I don't see the radical difference between Halo and Wolf3d.
I see slight evolutionary changes expected from later FPS, including online multiplayer and other such things that are nice, yet don't entirely redefine the genre.



I'll put it a different way so maybe it will not trigger the "graphics vs. gameplay" knee-jerk reaction most have. More recently graphics and sound have become realistic enough that developers can use them to the point where they are a part of the gameplay and storyline.

People said that 20 years ago when they were shilling NES consoles and VGA videocards.

[JSweeney]

Considering your reply came 4 minutes after my edit according to the forum time of my edit and your reply, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Believe it or not, other people are actually responding to you as well, and are answering your previous arguments before you amend them.

[JSweeney]

I fail to see how adding an extra dimensional layer on top of standard gaming controls (which are also present on the revolution) is "more simplified." It may look more slick or appear less cluttered, but in terms of physical interaction it's actually more complex.

It's more intuitive and natural... that actually accounts for a great deal, especially when you aren't dealing with people who have trained themselves of 3 generations of controllers.

[Ruined]

It's not "just as fun as Halo", it's a far different experience.

How?
I don't see the radical difference between Halo and Wolf3d.

Then I doubt you've played both. To start with Wolf3d has no freelook and every level of the game occurs on one plane or altitude if you prefer. Halo gives you the freedom to look in all directions and also to move up and down in altitude within the game level unlike Wolf3D. Wolf3D is a 2D game, Halo is a 3D game. Wolf3D has little to no storytelling, Halo has lots of storytelling. Wolf3d you fight against nazis and mutant nazis, Halo is a scifi game. The list goes on and on and honestly I could probably write about 10 pages on how Halo is different than Wolf3D.

You might as well say Rayman 2 is the same game as Super Mario Brothers. If you take that stance, you might as well just say Halo is Pong and all games are the same :)

I'll put it a different way so maybe it will not trigger the "graphics vs. gameplay" knee-jerk reaction most have. More recently graphics and sound have become realistic enough that developers can use them to the point where they are a part of the gameplay and storyline.

People said that 20 years ago when they were shilling NES consoles and VGA videocards.

Not sure about NES, but 256-color VGA videocards did bring realistic photos/graphics to the computer when the prior 16-color EGA standard could not render anything remotely approaching a real-life photo.

[punqsux]

I'll put it a different way so maybe it will not trigger the "graphics vs. gameplay" knee-jerk reaction most have.
its easy to keep saying knee jerk reaction as it somewhat discredits the other persons argument, however its not exactly a knee jerk reaction, alot of people here have spent alot of time realizing this, and debating it.

you are getting clear, cohearant, and to the point retorts to your opinions and are discrediting them as knee-jerk

[Ruined]

It's more intuitive and natural... that actually accounts for a great deal, especially when you aren't dealing with people who have trained themselves of 3 generations of controllers.

How are you measuring inituitive and natural? Further, why do you think game developers would use it to make games more "natural" when making games more gimmicky is a much easier concept to advertise and hence sell/move units of?

[dastly75]

IMO, recently graphics and sound have become a part of gameplay. I refer to this as the "immersion" factor. For instance, if you took Halo and converted it to NES graphics and sound, it wouldn't be as fun to play. Not because the dynamic of the gameplay is any different, but because part of the enjoyment of the gameplay experience in that game comes from the immersion provided by the graphics, sounds, and environments.

Also, in some extreme cases, graphics and sound are the gameplay. Games like Dance Dance Revolution, Rez, Gitaroo Man, Fantavision, Lumines, Space Channel 5, Frequency, Amplitude, and more would be much less fun to play if the graphics and/or sound were greatly diminished or removed as primary roles in the game.

I tend to think "gameplay is more important graphics" is a knee-jerk reaction for people who are tired of individuals frothing over a crappy game just because it has great graphics, while they pass over the good game with poor graphics. That being said, saying that gameplay is more important than graphics is a falsehood as graphics could now be considered a part of gameplay due to their immersive factor.

In this case, it could be argued that Nintendo's controller also provides a higher level of "immersion" with the game, thereby enhancing the gameplay... I'm just not sure it is practical or something I would want on most of my games.


Doom III was sure immersing but I for one didn't really like it. Not because the graphics weren't good or that I was bored of the scripted alien pop outs but because the gameplay was repetitive.

Graphics is great and all but if the gameplay isn't there, then neither is my interest. Now you could say Halo is like that but Halo mixes its gameplay quite nicely as far as map design(negating the library) and vehicle stuff. Oh yeah and the multiplayer!

Graphics and sound haven't 'recently', as you put it, become part of the immersion factor. Anyone whos ever gotten the water world music of super mario bros knows that.

As far as games that completely rely on sound or graphics, like Amplitude, that's great and all but I don't see where that fits into your argument. I don't need an HDTV to play those games. And I don't even think those types of games even take advantage of the HD possibilities like some other games do.

If X = gameplay and I said gamplay is the most important to me, then yes thats the most important. You can't create a game without gameplay, otherwise it'd be a movie.

[JSweeney]

Then I doubt you've played both. To start with Wolf3d has no freelook and every level of the game occurs on one plane or altitude if you prefer. Halo gives you the freedom to look in all directions and also to move up and down in altitude within the game level unlike Wolf3D. Wolf3D is a 2D game, Halo is a 3D game. Wolf3D has little to no storytelling, Halo has lots of storytelling.

Freelook, multitiered levels, and more in-depth storylines are all evolutionary steps in the FPS genre. Yes, it adds more depth to the game, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's "more fun".

At it's core, the purpose of the game is exactly the same.

Wolf3d you fight against nazis and mutant nazis, Halo is a scifi game. The list goes on and on and honestly I could probably write about 10 pages on how Halo is different than Wolf3D.

I've seen plenty Sci-fi movies with mutant Nazi zombies.

You could come up with ten pages explaining the difference, and you still could never prove that Halo is strictly more fun that Wolf3D, or even Pong for that matter.

Yes, it's more advanced... it should be, it came out years upon years later.
That doesn't mean it's more fun.

The thing is, there are games somewhat similar to Halo with drastically diminished graphics and functionality, and they are still fun. Game design is still king. Graphics go a long way to helping that along, but a pretty game that plays like shit still isn't fun.


You might as well say Rayman 2 is the same game as Super Mario Brothers.

Same? No... Similar? Without a doubt.



If you take that stance, you might as well just say Halo is Pong and all games are the same :)

No, because the game design behind Halo and Pong are fundamentally different.



Not sure about NES, but 256-color VGA videocards did bring realistic photos/graphics to the computer when the prior 16-color EGA standard could not render anything remotely approaching a real-life photo.

And yet all of the games made prior to that didn't magically become "less fun".
How can that be if graphics are king?

[JSweeney]

How are you measuring inituitive and natural?

If an average soccer mom could pick up the device and without any coaching reach a reasonable degree of success.


Further, why do you think game developers would use it to make games more "natural" when making games more gimmicky is a much easier concept to advertise and hence sell/move units of?

Actually, they don't have too... gamers like you think that making game control more natural and intuitive is gimmicky.

[dcfox]

IMO, recently graphics and sound have become a part of gameplay. I refer to this as the "immersion" factor. For instance, if you took Halo and converted it to NES graphics and sound, it wouldn't be as fun to play. Not because the dynamic of the gameplay is any different, but because part of the enjoyment of the gameplay experience in that game comes from the immersion provided by the graphics, sounds, and environments.

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/news/06/18/halo_thumb001.jpg http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/news/06/18/halo_thumb002.jpg http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/news/06/18/halo_thumb003.jpg http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/news/06/18/halo_thumb004.jpg http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/news/06/18/halo_thumb005.jpg

Take a look at those screens, then try telling me a 2d Halo would not be a blast to play. I've always held to the notion that you can tell the great games from the good games by their timeless appeal. If you can't imagine Halo being as fun with N64 graphics then Halo couldn't have been that good of a game to begin with. Because somewhere down the line there's a going to be game with graphics so much greater than Halo, it will make the graphics of Halo look N64 grade, comparatively speaking.

[Ruined]

Freelook, multitiered levels, and more in-depth storylines are all evolutionary steps in the FPS genre. Yes, it adds more depth to the game, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's "more fun".

At it's core, the purpose of the game is exactly the same.

I've seen plenty Sci-fi movies with mutant Nazi zombies.

You are over-simplifying massive differences. Halo is not Wolf3d, Rayman 2 is not Super Mario Bros., and NHL 2K6 is not Pong.

Yes, it's more advanced... it should be, it came out years upon years later.
That doesn't mean it's more fun.

I never said it was more fun I said it was different. Halo without its graphics and sounds wouldn't be Halo.


You might as well say Rayman 2 is the same game as Super Mario Brothers.

Same? No... Similar? Without a doubt.

Not at all. They are the same genre, but they are vastly different games. And if you think the genre makes them similar, then again I could go a step further and take any two video games and say because they are both games they are similar.



No, because the game design behind Halo and Pong are fundamentally different.

Using the same logic you are arguing how Wolf3D's game design is similar to Halo I can go a step further and argue that Pong's game design is similar to Halo's. It will simply just be even more exaggerated and a notch past your current point of reference.



The thing is, there are games somewhat similar to Halo with drastically diminished graphics and functionality, and they are still fun. Game design is still king. Graphics go a long way to helping that along, but a pretty game that plays like shit still isn't fun.

...yet all of the games made prior to that didn't magically become "less fun".
How can that be if graphics are king?

Reread my posts. I never said that games with bad graphics were "less fun," I said currently graphics are such a part of modern-day gameplay that with many of them you removed the graphics and sounds THAT GAME would become less fun. If you took away Halo's graphics, *it would not magically transform into Wolf3D*. Likewise if you removed the music from Amplitude, the game would not magically transform in to Tetris. Nor did I say "graphics are king," only you have brought up these arguments and phrases. I said graphics and sound are now most definitely a part of gameplay, most specifically the immersion factor. You are experiencing the graphics vs. gameplay knee-jerk reaction as we speak, concepts that in this day and age really can't be seperated in such a manner, because *graphics and sound are now a major part of gameplay in many modern-day titles*.

Still don't agree with me? Take it up with the encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gameplay), as apparently my assertion that graphics are a part of gameplay in video games currently fits better with our society's perception in general.

[Genocidal]

The thing is, we aren't talking a difference that's the difference between NES and current gen graphics. The graphics of this gen are very close to realistic, and the immersion factor is quite high. Even if you're pushing a few million more polygons next gen, it isn't going to make as huge of a difference as you'd like to believe.

[Ruined]

The thing is, we aren't talking a difference that's the difference between NES and current gen graphics. The graphics of this gen are very close to realistic, and the immersion factor is quite high. Even if you're pushing a few million more polygons next gen, it isn't going to make as huge of a difference as you'd like to believe.

Again though, this is all based on your personal preference and personal sensitivity to visual effects.

Some could similarly argue that the control interface afforded by the new Nintendo controller isn't going to make as big of a difference as Nintendo would want you to believe over a standard controller in terms of user interactivity or immersion using their own personal control references.

I guess I could start saying that Gameplay is more important than Controllers ;)

[Strell]

JESUS H CHRIST, WHY IS THIS THREAD THIS DAMN LONG

It's like.... "DUH WHY WOULD A COMPUTER NEED A MOUSE WHEN TAB IS SUCH A NICE WAY OF MOVING AROUND"

Welcome to 2005, not 1975, more intuitive always trumps stuck-in-the-mud bullshit.

Fuck. Do people still use horses too? Because cars are SO UNINTUITIVE AND DEFEAT THE PURPOSE OF TRAVEL. WHERE THE FUCK DID MY CLIP CLOP SOUNDS GO

[redgopher]

You can sit anyway you want. The point Nintendo is trying to make is that they are trying to bring new fun to gaming. I have seen my cousins lay several PS2 games where all you do is move around the screen hitting a button killing things. What is the point of that?

You want to play "regular" games? Go spend twise as much on an Xbox or PS3 and play the same fucking games you are playing right now, just with a higher number after it ( or a 0 if it's a prequel).

Nintendo hopefully will have these great new types of games and the classic type for lazy developer that will jsut port games over.

Fanboy alert!

I for one am excited to see what kind of games Nintendo will produce for their new system, however I do agree with the OP. He's got a very good point.

[sisco1986]

I can't believe that we're arguing about whether or not the Revolution will be condusive to playing while lying down.

And btw, what about people who play PC games? Don't they have to sit up while playing games? Oops, suddenly a whole demographic is lost due to posture.

Not to throw gas at the flame, but I play most of my pc games laying down or on my bean bag (my pc is hooked up to my television and I play with a wireless keyboard/mouse or Wireless Controller).

anyways, I can see what the topic creator is coming from, but lets wait until we have the system in our hands then lets bitch, until then I don't really see the point of theses threads. It's something new, it's going to stir up a lot of shit and people are going to be either very gun-ho or there going to be afraid of change. But I'm pretty sure you guys are going to keep at it.. :oldman:

[Chris in Cali]

I haven't really read the thread because I could tell where it was headed, but I'd just like to say this...

Hold your arm out about 2-3 feet in front of you just for.... oh, I don't know, 60 seconds. Better yet, hold your TV remote in your hand and pretend you playing a Revolution game, and remember the controller is accurate, and if you mess up you could lose. Your shoulder will get tired. Now imagine playing for 60 minutes. IGN stated that the revolutions controller was extremely acurate, that will just make matters worse. The slightest drop in your arm to rest will cause an undisired reaction in the game.

Much like the OP said, I like to play my games in many different positions. I usually play around 10:00 P.M. right when I get home from work. So I like to get in my recliner, and kick my feet up for gaming sesions. This would never work with the Revolution's "extremely accurate" controller. Another thing I do is play my games about ten to twelve feet away from my TV. Well, with the kind of gameplay that we all know will be coming with the NR that seems to be something that will be fairly hard to pull off. You're going to need to be within a fairly close range of your TV to be precise while aiming the remote.

To me, the controller seems equvialent to playing the nintendo DS with an invisble stylus. It's like a pseudo-virtual reality device that just is too incomplete to be "innovative" or "the future of gaming." I'm going to be reserving my final judgement until I actually have theRevolution, and put some serious play-time into it, but I do have to say that common sense leads me to believe that it's a major mistake, and that the "regular" way of gaming is still best.

[shawagg]

Lay down and play? Damn no wonder gamers have the fat guy in the basement stigma!

[dastly75]

WHERE THE FUCK DID MY CLIP CLOP SOUNDS GO

That made me actually laugh out loud. I don't know why but that exclamation is genius

[Strell]

If you get tired after 60 seconds, you have lots of problems.

[Chris in Cali]

If you get tired after 60 seconds, you have lots of problems.



Really, such as? I'd love for you to elaborate.

[Strell]

If you need me to elaborate, you have lots of serious problems.

First off, you talk about being 10-12 feet away and how the Rev requires closeness. This is after it has been said it was tested to 30-100 feet with no problems. THe only way distance becomes an issue is if you get so far away that you simultaneously can't see the screen and there are things in your way, and if either of those things are true, you're just being silly with your gameplay. It's bluetooth, it is responsive, and if you can see what is going on, you can react fast enough. I could understand if you have a 10 inch televisiou and you can't see what is going on.

You're implying the precision of the control is a skewed remark because if you move 20 feet away, a slight movement will create an exaggerated response as opposed to being 10 feet away. In other words, the angle itself creates radically different results. I can't vouch for the Rev's ability to distinguish distance, but my guess is that the controller functions, at least in terms of left/right/twist/etc physical movement, is calculated by INTERNAL means, not external. That would solve that problem. That way if you are 20 feet away, the angle becomes irrelevent. A small flip downward from any distance creates the same result, and my guess is that such will be the method Rev will employ.

Really though I can't say anything, because no one here has used it. I haven't, so I don't know if there are failsafe procedures in place to solve such potentialities. But Nintendo isn't stupid - they aren't going to release a system BUILT AROUND THIS PREMISE and hope "gee I hope everyone lives in a ten foot by ten foot space and doesn't deviate from an upright sitting position when they play." You people are giving up already and calling it a bad idea without trying it. I'm calling it a good idea with premise without trying it. Really neither of us can say jackshit of our own opinions or each others, but I'm never going to sit back and whine about BOOHOO I HAD TO MAKE 56 BIG MACS TODAY AND IM TOO TIRED TO PICK A CONTROLLER, SO I'LL PLAY XBOX INSTEAD, AS THE CONTROLLER THERE IS *MUCH* SMALLER, LIGHTER, AND DOESN'T REQUIRE ME TO FLEX MY FINGER MUSCLES.

//pauses to say "learn to take a joke and notice exaggeration"

As for the physical demands of the controller, you make it sound like the preciseness is a factor because "if you get tired it'll screw up." Just beacuse the demo movie showed a bunch of people waving their arms around like maniacs doesn't mean EVERY game is going to require movement of such INCREDIBLE physical demands. I doubt most will require more than simple wrist movement and quick spasm-like movement. I don't think every game is going to require us to swing our arms around like out of control robots.

Oh, and seriously, if you cannot hold a controller for over 60 seconds, yes, you have terrible, terrible problems. I felt that garnered reiteration. And before you ask, yes, I have tested it. Have you every played Dance Freaks? I have. Played the hell out of it. And with all the fun I was having, the physical demands became about my thirteenth concern, right after "did I remember to hang the towels up in my bathroom?" And I wasn't playing pussy songs either. We're talking 200 bpm Bassanova (or whatever it is called). Brilliant stuff, I can't wait for something liek that to be released on Rev.

[dcfox]

I haven't really read the thread because I could tell where it was headed, but I'd just like to say this...

Hold your arm out about 2-3 feet in front of you just for.... oh, I don't know, 60 seconds. Better yet, hold your TV remote in your hand and pretend you playing a Revolution game, and remember the controller is accurate, and if you mess up you could lose. Your shoulder will get tired. Now imagine playing for 60 minutes. IGN stated that the revolutions controller was extremely acurate, that will just make matters worse. The slightest drop in your arm to rest will cause an undisired reaction in the game.
I think it's rare to find a game with 60 minutes of unbroken game play. Games are usually peppered with cutscenes, loading times, etc . . . If you think about the games that last that long in a single session are most likely RPGs, sports games, and action games. In RPGs you could have brief periods of intense action followed by a greater period of exploring or dialogue that would require little input from your part. Even with sports games, you may be playing an hour, but how much of that is spent in play calling or time outs. In action games like DMC, Halo, Dynasty Warriors, levels are usually small enough that you can beat them in a few minutes. And in a worse case scenario, just pause.

Games that would probably require the most movement would be WarioWare/ Mario Party type games. Those minigames last a few seconds to a minute at best. So I don't think tiring out is a big issue.

[amos_82]

The revolution controller looks like "The LAST nintendo controller". I love nintendo, but it looks like mario(like Sonic) may be out for the XBOX 360 by 2008 if they keep slipping in sales and worthwhile ideas.

[evilmax17]

The revolution controller looks like "The LAST nintendo controller". I love nintendo, but it looks like mario(like Sonic) may be out for the XBOX 360 by 2008 if they keep slipping in sales and worthwhile ideas.
You DO realize that Nintendo is more profitable than Sony or Microsoft...right?

[amos_82]

They are only more profitable because of the handheld side of the business. The console side is going to hell in a handbag.

[the3rdkey]

People always come up with the lamest crap to harp on Nintendo.

[amos_82]

Look at the market % they hold in console units versus Sony and Microsoft. Nintendo has never been in 3rd until the Gamecube launched.

[Apossum]

Look at the market % they hold in console units versus Sony and Microsoft. Nintendo has never been in 3rd until the Gamecube launched.


The N64 was second by default....but market statistics don't offer a clear picture. Nintendo is "healthier" than Sony or MS, especially Sony. they just aren't raking as much cash in, but the cash they are raking is mostly profit.

[JSweeney]

You are over-simplifying massive differences. Halo is not Wolf3d, Rayman 2 is not Super Mario Bros., and NHL 2K6 is not Pong.


Halo and Wolf3D are FPS.

Rayman 2 and Super Mario are sidescrollers.

NHL2k6 and Pong are sports games.



Though their implemenations are obviously different, due to hardware capabilities and advances in thier genre, they still play in a similar fashion.

Time and advancement introduces new wrinkles to the gameplay, and that can enhance the experience, it doesn't necessarily make it more fun.





I never said it was more fun I said it was different. Halo without its graphics and sounds wouldn't be Halo.

IMO, recently graphics and sound have become a part of gameplay. I refer to this as the "immersion" factor. For instance, if you took Halo and converted it to NES graphics and sound, it wouldn't be as fun to play.


Care to revise your statement?

Removing the capablities that faster hardware and larger media grant, Halo stripped down would look remarkably like Wolf3D... or perhaps more aptly...Marathon.


Not at all. They are the same genre, but they are vastly different games. And if you think the genre makes them similar, then again I could go a step further and take any two video games and say because they are both games they are similar.

Not only the genre, but the overriding design.

You can try to disprove anything by taking it to a ridiculous point, but at there very cores, there is inherent similarity to ALL game design, so this track is not going to be as effective as you'll hope. Because you can make valid comparisions about the similarity of entirely different styles of games does not invalidate comparisions made of similar styles of games.

Using the same logic you are arguing how Wolf3D's game design is similar to Halo I can go a step further and argue that Pong's game design is similar to Halo's. It will simply just be even more exaggerated and a notch past your current point of reference.

At it's very core, the game design is. Both are designed to display user input to the screen, mantain certain data (scores, kills, etc), and hopefully entertain the user. That this comparision can be made does not immediately invalidate any comparisions made between modern and early FPS and the degree of fun which the user experiences.


Reread my posts. I never said that games with bad graphics were "less fun," I said currently graphics are such a part of modern-day gameplay that with many of them you removed the graphics and sounds THAT GAME would become less fun.

I fail to see the difference. Halo does not become automatically less fun if it's graphical or modern elements are removed. It would be less lauded for certain, but both Marathon and Wolf3D are still fun...



If you took away Halo's graphics, *it would not magically transform into Wolf3D*.

No, but that's because it wasn't developed by bungie... developers have thier own styles. However, I'd be willing to be it would probably look a lot like Marathon.

Likewise if you removed the music from Amplitude, the game would not magically transform in to Tetris.

No, it wouldn't but not for the reason you think... the gameplay dynamics in Amplitude and Tetris are entirely different.

Nor did I say "graphics are king," only you have brought up these arguments and phrases. I said graphics and sound are now most definitely a part of gameplay, most specifically the immersion factor.

Graphics and sound are no more now that they have been in the past.

Not only that, thier value in increasing user immersion is rapidly becoming less and less important, until perhaps the next major graphical revolution. As that is not in the immediate future, more responsive, natural and intutive control schemes are going to increase immersion far, far more than graphics will in the short term.

You are experiencing the graphics vs. gameplay knee-jerk reaction as we speak, concepts that in this day and age really can't be seperated in such a manner, because *graphics and sound are now a major part of gameplay in many modern-day titles*.


GRAPHICS and SOUND != GAMEPLAY. Prettier graphics and cleaner sound can help with immersion, but just because a game is immersive doesn't guarntee compelling gameplay. It hasn't in the past, and it won't in the future.

A pile of shit dipped in gold and set on a rotating pedestal over a bank of speakers playing Mozart is still a pile of shit.

Still don't agree with me? Take it up with the encyclopedia, as apparently my assertion that graphics are a part of gameplay in video games currently fits better with our society's perception in general.

Did you even bother to read your own citation?

Generally, the term "gameplay" in video game terminology is used to describe the overall experience of playing the game excluding the factors of graphics, sound, and the storyline. This is the very essence of a game. The term "Game mechanics" refers to sub elements of the gameplay, but particularly the primary control and movement features of the game (thus excluding things like level design or AI).

[David85]

Blah Blha Blah

[Dr Mario Kart]

They are only more profitable because of the handheld side of the business. The console side is going to hell in a handbag.

Even the home console division made some money. Some as in not none. none as in what Microsoft made.

[xzafixz]

Even the home console division made some money. Some as in not none. none as in what Microsoft made.


None would be an improvement for Microsoft, they lost money.

[Quigoni]

They are only more profitable because of the handheld side of the business. The console side is going to hell in a handbag.

Wrong! Even at it's current price they're making money off the Gamecube still. To the outside it may look like it's going to hell, but they don't care where they are as long as they're making profit. So think what you'd like.

[Rig]

Wrong! Even at it's current price they're making money off the Gamecube still. To the outside it may look like it's going to hell, but they don't care where they are as long as they're making profit. So think what you'd like.

Agreed. Do you think Nintendo is worried about being first in the console wars? Maybe they'd like to be, but I highly doubt they are worried, since both the N64 and GC didn't come out on top. Yet, they still are making money. They are turning a profit and I'm sure they will continue to make systems as long as that is still happening...

[GreenMonkey]

I haven't really read the thread because I could tell where it was headed, but I'd just like to say this...

Hold your arm out about 2-3 feet in front of you just for.... oh, I don't know, 60 seconds. Better yet, hold your TV remote in your hand and pretend you playing a Revolution game, and remember the controller is accurate, and if you mess up you could lose. Your shoulder will get tired. Now imagine playing for 60 minutes. IGN stated that the revolutions controller was extremely acurate, that will just make matters worse. The slightest drop in your arm to rest will cause an undisired reaction in the game.

Much like the OP said, I like to play my games in many different positions. I usually play around 10:00 P.M. right when I get home from work. So I like to get in my recliner, and kick my feet up for gaming sesions. This would never work with the Revolution's "extremely accurate" controller. Another thing I do is play my games about ten to twelve feet away from my TV. Well, with the kind of gameplay that we all know will be coming with the NR that seems to be something that will be fairly hard to pull off. You're going to need to be within a fairly close range of your TV to be precise while aiming the remote.

To me, the controller seems equvialent to playing the nintendo DS with an invisble stylus. It's like a pseudo-virtual reality device that just is too incomplete to be "innovative" or "the future of gaming." I'm going to be reserving my final judgement until I actually have theRevolution, and put some serious play-time into it, but I do have to say that common sense leads me to believe that it's a major mistake, and that the "regular" way of gaming is still best.

Did you read on IGN or wherever it was, about how the guy said he could rest his elbows and play just like with a normal controller? You don't have to hold the damn controller out in the middle of the air. In nunchaku formation it's just like a normal controller, just split in the middle. By all reports it takes subtle movements just fine. Everyone, from IGN to Gamespot, who was hands on with it, said it was great. Oh wait, they must be on crack. :roll:

And this "OMG what if people want to lay down" bullshit. I lay down sometimes when I'm playing Final Fantasy VI or something. I laid down or on my back playing Dragon Warrior IV on NES when I was a kid. For anything remotely action oriented I have to sit up properly for good control. I can't see effectively playing Devil May Cry or Halo laying on my belly. No fucking way!

I would say that this thread should be closed, as it is clearly the same topic as the other, but we don't need 3 pages of arguing with one person cluttering up the other thread.

[Ruined]

In a Home Theater forum I posted this idea in, I received the following response:

Fact is, do you see any over 20yr old gamers coming home from an 8 hour work day, and move a little controller around to make Mario jump? Kids will love it I think, and that is the demographic Nintendo goes for, which makes sense, as kids need games, and you don't want under 10 year olds playing Grand Theft Auto, Manhunt and Metal Gear.

While there will obviously be exceptions, do you agree with this poster that this product will primarily appear to very young audiences? If so, this was probably a good way for Nintendo to retain their target audience from switching to XBOX360/PS3. I could definitely see young kids trading off practicality for the interactivity of this device (as practicality never enters a kid's mind!)

Re: JSweeney you just said that Pong and Halo are similar, so on that note I don't think there is any point arguing with you anymore :)

[Puzznic]

In a Home Theater forum I posted this idea in, I received the following response:



While there will obviously be exceptions, do you agree with this poster that this product will primarily appear to very young audiences? If so, this was probably a good way for Nintendo to retain their target audience from switching to XBOX360/PS3. I could definitely see young kids trading off practicality for the interactivity of this device (as practicality never enters a kid's mind!)

Re: JSweeney you just said that Pong and Halo are similar, so on that note I don't think there is any point arguing with you anymore :)


I seriously doubt that the motion sensor will be used for jumping and similar actions. It's not like your not going to be able to control your games in a semi-normal way. I'm sure they will use the motion sensor conrol where it makes sense, like for aiming.

I really just want to play Metroid Prime 3 with this thing, then i'll worry about how it works with everything else. You have a point about the practicality but then again we really haven't seen the thing in action yet.

[bmulligan]

Hold your arm out about 2-3 feet in front of you just for.... oh, I don't know, 60 seconds. Better yet, hold your TV remote in your hand and pretend you playing a Revolution game, and remember the controller is accurate, and if you mess up you could lose. Your shoulder will get tired. Now imagine playing for 60 minutes. IGN stated that the revolutions controller was extremely acurate, that will just make matters worse. The slightest drop in your arm to rest will cause an undisired reaction in the game.

To me, the controller seems equvialent to playing the nintendo DS with an invisble stylus. It's like a pseudo-virtual reality device that just is too incomplete to be "innovative" or "the future of gaming." I'm going to be reserving my final judgement until I actually have theRevolution, and put some serious play-time into it, but I do have to say that common sense leads me to believe that it's a major mistake, and that the "regular" way of gaming is still best.

I think Chris nailed it on the head here. Although Strell works out for 5 hours a day 6 days a week and can flail his appendages at a TV screen for hours on end, he is an anomaly and clearly not like the rest of us weak earthlings.

[Dr Mario Kart]

I dont think the movments will be as exaggerated as people think that they are from the videos. People come home from work and use a mouse and keyboard, I dont think it will be significantly more taxing than that.

[botticus]

I love how a debate about something that people have seen in pictures and in a video of people pretending to use it can rage for 4 days.

And for the record, the only people I believe we have record of using it are the IGN people, and they like it, although their usage was very limited. So anecdotal evidence either way = zero.

Of course, my view since day 2 (after I came to terms with the new controller) is that Nintendo has succeeded in one thing already, as stated in a previous thread, I believe: getting people to talk about their new console and forget about the 360 and PS3 for a little while.

[JSweeney]

JSweeney you just said that Pong and Halo are similar, so on that note I don't think there is any point arguing with you anymore :)

So you felt the need to formally state that?

Do you even know what simiar means?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=similar

Definition 1: Related in appearance or nature; alike though not identical.

Viewed at a certain level, both Halo and Pong ARE similar. That's not to say that they aren't dissimilar in many other ways.
Obviously, noone will mistake them based on appearence, but thier nature is the same.... they are videogames, designed to entertain the end user.

You seem to be only able to see your point of view... to see things only in black and white, while the rest of the world is happening in the shades of grey.

You opened the door to all of this, and never honed or constrained your argument to a point where you set a proper threshold for significance. In most cases, the similarities between Halo and Pong are insiginificant... however, in so much as thier intent and requirements at the basest levels are similar, there is ground to make a very tenable claim that Halo is similar to Pong. They have a shared purpose, shared requirements, and shared purposes. That's plenty for me to point out a similarity.

[adamsappel]

Why does anyone believe you have to hold the controller stiffly out in front of you? All the hands-on impressions state you don't do this. They're certainly not doing that in the commercial, though you don't have to play with those exaggerated movements, either. And I imagine this configuration will reduce carpal tunnel problems, since your hands won't be locked in one position as with a rigid controller.

[Sleepkyng]

I love how a debate about something that people have seen in pictures and in a video of people pretending to use it can rage for 4 days.

And for the record, the only people I believe we have record of using it are the IGN people, and they like it, although their usage was very limited. So anecdotal evidence either way = zero.

Of course, my view since day 2 (after I came to terms with the new controller) is that Nintendo has succeeded in one thing already, as stated in a previous thread, I believe: getting people to talk about their new console and forget about the 360 and PS3 for a little while.

actually, I think CheapyD got his hands on a controller IIRC.

[psiufoxx2]

Back to the OP's topic.

Um. How do any of these arguments illustrate that Nintendo's new controller does or does not DEFEAT the purpose of console gaming?

I firmlly believe the purpose of GAMING is to have fun - console, PC, or otherwise.

Is the purpose of console gaming to use a dual-analog controller? Fuck no.

[Ruined]

So you felt the need to formally state that?

Do you even know what simiar means?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=similar

Definition 1: Related in appearance or nature; alike though not identical.

Viewed at a certain level, both Halo and Pong ARE similar. That's not to say that they aren't dissimilar in many other ways.
Obviously, noone will mistake them based on appearence, but thier nature is the same.... they are videogames, designed to entertain the end user.

You seem to be only able to see your point of view... to see things only in black and white, while the rest of the world is happening in the shades of grey.

You opened the door to all of this, and never honed or constrained your argument to a point where you set a proper threshold for significance. In most cases, the similarities between Halo and Pong are insiginificant... however, in so much as thier intent and requirements at the basest levels are similar, there is ground to make a very tenable claim that Halo is similar to Pong. They have a shared purpose, shared requirements, and shared purposes. That's plenty for me to point out a similarity.

Are you going to argue next that Ice Cream and Roast Beef are similar because they're food? Or how about movies and video games being similar because they're forms of entertainment? Or weightlifting and videogames because they are both activities? Has nothing to do with black and white, more to do with being sensible and expectations. Just like I wouldn't say Top Gun is similar to The English Patient, I wouldn't say Halo is similar to Pong. I think most understand and embrace that concept, otherwise you could argue EVERYTHING in life is "similar." The only reason you are forced into admitting they are "similar" in your definition is because your argument depends on it, and therefore that shows how flawed your argument really is. Since you refuse to concede a rather obvious point, debating with you further is fruitless - and I think that if you commented to any Joe off the street that Pong and Halo were similar after showing or letting them play them both, they would most likely look at you funny.

The developers that have been able to evolve their mindset to the current state of affairs, with graphics and sound becoming a part of gameplay are the ones that have been truly successful in the industry lately. Doom3 is another good example of the merging of graphics/sound and gameplay.

[Ruined]

Back to the OP's topic.

Um. How do any of these arguments illustrate that Nintendo's new controller does or does not DEFEAT the purpose of console gaming?

I firmlly believe the purpose of GAMING is to have fun - console, PC, or otherwise.

Is the purpose of console gaming to use a dual-analog controller? Fuck no.

The original premise as that in addition to having fun, which is one definite purpose of gaming, another concept some people use consoles for is to relax - and this particular purpose will be somewhat defeated by Nintendo's new controller.

[munch]

The original premise as that in addition to having fun, which is one definite purpose of gaming, another concept some people use consoles for is to relax - and this particular purpose will be somewhat defeated by Nintendo's new controller.

I'm sorry if i don't understand, but are you saying because you have to move the new controller will make gaming less relaxing?

[botticus]

The original premise as that in addition to having fun, which is one definite purpose of gaming, another concept some people use consoles for is to relax - and this particular purpose will be somewhat defeated by Nintendo's new controller.
I have a feeling your argument will be quite a bit more effective once you've played a game with the controller and then came back and said "Hey guys, I played game x, my arms got tired, I couldn't lay down and play it like I usually do, and its just not very relaxing." But for now, all you and I can do is say "well, I think I can't lay down. And I think I will get tired using it." All of which are suppositions which can be argued for and against all day with no basis in reality.

[dastly75]

The controller is like a regular controller except the middle is missing(assuming you're in the FPS setup).

That commerical is exaggerated simply to create interest.

If anything , it will be less strain then a regular full fledged controller resting in the hands. I don't work out(at least not often) and holding my hands out in front and moving them around for 60 seconds doesn't get me tired.

[JSweeney]

Are you going to argue next that Ice Cream and Roast Beef are similar because they're food?
Or how about movies and video games being similar because they're forms of entertainment?
Or weightlifting and videogames because they are both activities?

Are they similar? Yes, all of them are similar, to a degree.

Has nothing to do with black and white, more to do with being sensible and expectations.

Sensibility and expectations are highly subject terms, and can easily be altered by frame of reference and/or culture. You haven't adequetely constrained your arguments, and thus there is no boundaries, metrics or form to the discussion you are attempting to have.

By and large, your statements have been weak, stilted, and biased.
You've been unsuccessful in shepparding your points, and have jumped from contention to contention with no resolution and in most case, any subsantiation.

Now you're trying to add constraints after the fact, which rarely works as well.


Just like I wouldn't say Top Gun is similar to The English Patient,

Thier media is the same, they both share standard elements of drama, as well as a myriad of other factors. Similarities exist. You seem to now want to quible about what degree of similarity is vaild.

I wouldn't say Halo is similar to Pong.

Obviously. Though you're not making much headway in being able to say that it isn't.


I think most understand and embrace that concept, otherwise you could argue EVERYTHING in life is "similar."

By and large, everything is similar. At some point, people decide that the similarities are no longer substantial enough, and they are considered moot.
However, you've not done a very good job in showing that the similarities existing in both Pong and Halo are so minute that they could be considered moot.

Your opinion is not fact, nor is mine. However, you've appeared to not do well in swaying others to your views, and I'd question whether you could even get enough people in this thread to agree that from a high level viewpoint that the videogames Halo and Pong are similar.


The only reason you are forced into admitting they are "similar" in your definition is because your argument depends on it, and therefore that shows how flawed your argument really is.

I am not forced into admitting they are similar. They are, by definition.
That you argue a proper definition and it's application seems rather foolish.
There are much weaker points for you to attack.

Since you refuse to concede a rather obvious point, debating with you further is fruitless - and I think that if you commented to any Joe off the street that Pong and Halo were similar after showing or letting them play them both, they would most likely look at you funny.

No, your bias places your threshold for similarity far lower than others may be.
The similarities aren't as readily apparent as they would be if you showed them Doom 3 on the Xbox, but they still exist. That an average audiance may not be sophisticated enough to percieve them does not invalidate thier existance.


The developers that have been able to evolve their mindset to the current state of affairs, with graphics and sound becoming a part of gameplay are the ones that have been truly successful in the industry lately. Doom3 is another good example of the merging of graphics/sound and gameplay.

This statement has little foundation, and doesn't belong in this post. It would have been far better to place it in another post and flesh it out rather than to append it to a unrelated thread of the argument.

Your bias is amazing, though... in thier day, people could say the same thing about Pac Man, Super Mario Brothers, Final Fantasy 7, etc. To consider what you are saying is a modern innovation is folly.

[lovegun9mm]

You know, every time that you thing the BIG "N" does something right they do something REALLY stupid !!! Did anyone else SEE the New controllers for the Revolution?? Could you imagine playing the NEW Zelda on these things!!! I mean come on, I have been a loyal fan for years be this is the last straw!! Unless they change the controller, they will not only lose me as a possible buyer but I'm sure that many more will follow!!!

[munch]

You know, every time that you thing the BIG "N" does something right they do something REALLY stupid !!! Did anyone else SEE the New controllers for the Revolution?? Could you imagine playing the NEW Zelda on these things!!! I mean come on, I have been a loyal fan for years be this is the last straw!! Unless they change the controller, they will not only lose me as a possible buyer but I'm sure that many more will follow!!!

seeing how there is a huge thread on the Revolution controller and there has been over 16,000 views on it, i would have to say that everyone on this board has seen the design. so far it seems that the opinions have been overwhelmingly favorable. i think if they pull this off it will be brilliant.

in regards to zelda, look here:

http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67201

this poster has some very creative ideas for how a zelda game could possibly work. rather than doubt, why not wait and see what could possibly happen, then make an informed decision rather than a newb-based reaction.

[Rig]

You know, every time that you thing the BIG "N" does something right they do something REALLY stupid !!! Did anyone else SEE the New controllers for the Revolution?? Could you imagine playing the NEW Zelda on these things!!! I mean come on, I have been a loyal fan for years be this is the last straw!! Unless they change the controller, they will not only lose me as a possible buyer but I'm sure that many more will follow!!!

Why the fuck do people have to be so ignorant? Have you even read the damn thread. Nobody knows what Zelda is going to be....but Nintendo is going to release SHELLS THAT ACT LIKE NORMAL CONTROLLERS!! :bomb: Go buy yourself a PS3 or 360 and STFU...

EDIT: And if they use the remote as the controller, I'm sure they'll craft a fine game. What Zelda has Nintendo made that hasn't been good?

[Ecofreak]

EDIT: And if they use the remote as the controller, I'm sure they'll craft a fine game. What Zelda has Nintendo made that hasn't been good?

The Zelda's for the CD-i, or so I hear. But that wasn't released for a Nintendo console so I personally wouldn't count it.

Also, some people didn't like Link II.