The Decapitation of the american captive

[Reality's Fringe]

*Edited*

I edited this post to remove the link. While I feel that people need to see reality, I can respect the fact that it is indeed a touchy subject and a direct link is not proper.

[JakeT81588]

that is fucked up

[The Successful Dropout]

ive been hearing about this all day....its a very sad and fucked up story

[godhatesjustyou]

man, i'm not even gonna look..

[evilmax17]

Has anyone watched this? One of my friends linked me to another site that had it, but I didn't watch it because of conscience. What do people think (other than the obvious)?

[bignick]

It is very disturbing.

[JakeT81588]

i did... i am seriously scared for life..... no joke, and im not a very serious person either. look at my past posts. i can't stand fuckers who like seeing that kind of stuff. but for real, this is not for the faint of heart.

[The Successful Dropout]

my gf wanted to see it really bad, shes weird like that (she wants to be an autopsy forensics tech type doctor or whatever they're called)....i just clicked on that link, watched the first 10 seconds....but really couldnt take it any more when they started the sawing....i tried to x out, but the screen didnt close until the head came off....i seriously do not feel good at all right now

[punqsux]

i dont think i want to see it. its terrible that it happened, but when u start a war, you should expect these kinds of things

[chev317]

they think public humiliation of their troops calls for this shit, what about what all there punkasses do to those they capture, i say issue a huge-ass warning and with one more incident, even if it doesnt have this magnitude, pull the troops, strip the land of all the resources and level the fucking land

[dcfox]

This could be the most disturbing thing I've ever seen. When I heard of the decapitation my mental image of it was that it was quick and clean something like a guillotine. Never did I imagine they'd saw his head off.

[The Successful Dropout]

by the way....he wasnt a soldier

[Admiral Ackbar]

I'm not going out of my way to watch it so I'll probably never see it unless it pops up somewhere. But unfortunately atrocities like this happen somewhere in the world daily. I've seen executions before, and don't need to see one more.

[The Successful Dropout]

he was just a contractor who went there on his own free will....he was the type of person who just wanted to help the unfortunate....not to be a jerk, but its amazing how people only want to hear the gory parts and not the truth behind it all....after saddam was captured, he thought it was "safe" to go there and help rebuild the radio towers....he went to two other countries before in the past just to help them out of his own free will....he came back from the other two countries with nothing except for the clothes on his back because he was soo nice that he gave everything away....he was very trustworthy and that cost him his life....

[punqsux]

they think public humiliation of their troops calls for this shit, what about what all there punkasses do to those they capture, i say issue a huge-ass warning and with one more incident, even if it doesnt have this magnitude, pull the troops, strip the land of all the resources and level the shaq-fuing land

why not just leave and let them rebuild their lives? whats left of them. ive always been against any kind of war, but going in to iraq and taking over without any plan for the future of the country, and based on the fact that 50% of the people there hate westerners, thats just retarted

[SneakyPenguin]

i refuse to watch it. i watched the "helicopter kills" video, where you can see three men blown apart by heavy machinegun fire. i will not watch this.

now for what will make me hated. we deserved this. no him, he was entirely innocent in this situation, a victim of circumstances. but after the mistreatment of their prisoners, we had to expect retaliation. correct me if im wrong, but wasnt the US pushing for the whole geneva convention thing (i think), banning cruel and unusual punishment? to me this is just an eye for an eye.

i am very upset by this, and i feel sorry for him and his family.

[The Successful Dropout]

its amazing how when we do something stupid like humiliate them, our people arrest us and punish us....but when they kill us and pull this bullshit, their people high five them....

id say this whole thing means war....but the war was supposed to be over a long while ago

[punqsux]

i refuse to watch it. i watched the "helicopter kills" video, where you can see three men blown apart by heavy machinegun fire. i will not watch this.

now for what will make me hated. we deserved this. no him, he was entirely innocent in this situation, a victim of circumstances. but after the mistreatment of their prisoners, we had to expect retaliation. correct me if im wrong, but wasnt the US pushing for the whole geneva convention thing (i think), banning cruel and unusual punishment? to me this is just an eye for an eye.

i am very upset by this, and i feel sorry for him and his family.

exactly my thoughts. while its sad, its hard to say something like this is unexpected.

[The Successful Dropout]

i agree with you sneaky penguin...what did we expect?...but still...this is just beyond the limits....but their are no limits in war....these people are animals and we should just blow the whole freaking place up

[PsyClerk]

removed due to missing sense of humor

[Steggy]

I really wish someone wouldnt have linked that website here.... it is a very hard issue for people to swallow. My stance on the issue is that is is an atrocity to the national demeanor. This proves there is evil in this world, an evil which should not be viewed by anyone. I am warning you, unless your a heartless individual, you will get a bit misty eyed watching this. Also, the audio is awful to listen to...

[ZForce915]

I won't be watching this. I personally don't think we should have seen the first part on TV either. Some things we don't need to know.

[evilmax17]

i agree with you sneaky penguin...what did we expect?...but still...this is just beyond the limits....but their are no limits in war....these people are animals and we should just blow the whole freaking place up

"these people"? Who, arabs? Iraqi's?
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/12/iraq.berg/index.html

The United Arab Emirates condemned the beheading as a "heinous crime against the civilized world."

"We are ashamed because these terrorists carried out this revolting and inhumane act in the name of our religion and culture," UAE Information Minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed al-Nahayan said in a written statement.

"This disgusting brutality can never be justified and has nothing to do with Islam or with our Arab values."

Al-Nahayan also extended the UAE's condolences to Berg's family: "We pray for them to find the courage and strength to deal with their loss."

Racism much? Don't take the actions of few and use them as representations for an entire culture.

[dcfox]

i refuse to watch it. i watched the "helicopter kills" video, where you can see three men blown apart by heavy machinegun fire. i will not watch this.

now for what will make me hated. we deserved this. no him, he was entirely innocent in this situation, a victim of circumstances. but after the mistreatment of their prisoners, we had to expect retaliation. correct me if im wrong, but wasnt the US pushing for the whole geneva convention thing (i think), banning cruel and unusual punishment? to me this is just an eye for an eye.

i am very upset by this, and i feel sorry for him and his family.
I wouldn't say that the equation is equal on both sides now. This definitely not an eye for an eye. And at this point the Geneva convention is useless seeing how its been violated so many times already. But as some of you said this is what comes of war and it is to be expected.

[The Successful Dropout]

we need to know this...this is real life....its extremely unfortunate....but this is what happens, and it shouldn't be hidden....while you shouldn't be forced to watch....you should have the right to...which you do....this should show you what war brings and what is going on over there and how serious terrorism is....this should also make a big difference on who you vote for

[ZForce915]

Casey or any other MOD, I'd like to request that the link be removed from this site. It's public, but it doesn't have to be listed here. We can discuss it, but I just think that a decapataion doesn't belong here.

[Steggy]

i agree with you sneaky penguin...what did we expect?...but still...this is just beyond the limits....but their are no limits in war....these people are animals and we should just blow the whole freaking place up

"these people"? Who, arabs? Iraqi's?
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/12/iraq.berg/index.html

The United Arab Emirates condemned the beheading as a "heinous crime against the civilized world."

"We are ashamed because these terrorists carried out this revolting and inhumane act in the name of our religion and culture," UAE Information Minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed al-Nahayan said in a written statement.

"This disgusting brutality can never be justified and has nothing to do with Islam or with our Arab values."

Al-Nahayan also extended the UAE's condolences to Berg's family: "We pray for them to find the courage and strength to deal with their loss."

Racism much? Don't take the actions of few and use them as representations for an entire culture.

And he also couldve meant the people involved in the beheading... Ever thin kabout that one? Also, numerous Arabs, Iraqis, and Pakistanis I speak to are apauled by this incident. These are people who are angry with the war and have hatred towards the us. But whern something this severe goes out in the open, everyone tends to feel.

[The Successful Dropout]

evil, are you calling me a racist? last time i checked, iraqi wasnt a race...."these people" is what i said....that could mean many different things...as in al qaeda, iraqis, arabs, middle eastern people, etc...dont assume

[evilmax17]

And he also couldve meant the people involved in the beheading... Ever thin kabout that one? Also, numerous Arabs, Iraqis, and Pakistanis I speak to are apauled by this incident. These are people who are angry with the war and have hatred towards the us. But whern something this severe goes out in the open, everyone tends to feel.

Yeah, but if he was only talking about the people in the vid, then what does "we should blow the whole place up" mean? That one bunker?

*Editted to respond to trustcompany*:

If you were referring to iraqi's, arabs, or middle-eastern people...than the accusation of racism stands.

[Reality's Fringe]

I removed the link at the request of several PM's. I feel people should see this, but I agree it's not proper to place a direct link to the video. For those of you that DID watch it, I believe that we can agree that regardless of your stance on the war and prisoner abuse; this is over the line.

[suprsaiyanMAX]

i refuse to watch it. i watched the "helicopter kills" video, where you can see three men blown apart by heavy machinegun fire. i will not watch this.

now for what will make me hated. we deserved this. no him, he was entirely innocent in this situation, a victim of circumstances. but after the mistreatment of their prisoners, we had to expect retaliation. correct me if im wrong, but wasnt the US pushing for the whole geneva convention thing (i think), banning cruel and unusual punishment? to me this is just an eye for an eye.

i am very upset by this, and i feel sorry for him and his family.
I wouldn't say that the equation is equal on both sides now. This definitely not an eye for an eye. And at this point the Geneva convention is useless seeing how its been violated so many times already. But as some of you said this is what comes of war and it is to be expected.

It comes not from war, but from terrorism. War may involve the death of innocent civilians yes, but nothing this deliberate. And in no way is it an wyw for an eye. Those prisoners, many of whom probably weren't nice people to begin with, get to see their families again someday, Nick Berg will not. Sure it was a horrible experience, but they are alive and I don't see "an eye for an eye" anywhere.

[Steggy]

Obviously he meant Iraq, but still having anger towards one action will cause an even greater reaction. I realy think this thread should end soon... people realy dont need to see this vid, and if they want they can look for it themselves. A discussion is fine, but please remove the link.

[CaseyRyback]

*Edited*

I edited this post to remove the link. While I feel that people need to see reality, I can respect the fact that it is indeed a touchy subject and a direct link is not proper.

thanks for removing the link. I know what you were trying to do and I did not mind it, but thanks you for taking it down at the request of fellow CAG'ers. It shows that you care enough about how others feel on this touchy subject to respect their feelings

[The Successful Dropout]

it just got removed, i agree this isnt the place for it either....though there are no rules against it being here....little kids have access to this site and they shouldn't see this

[punqsux]

evil, are you calling me a racist? last time i checked, iraqi wasnt a race...."these people" is what i said....that could mean many different things...as in al qaeda, iraqis, arabs, middle eastern people, etc...dont assume

you cant honestly say if someone said "all (inset nationallity here) should die" they arnt rasict, can you? while im not calling you a racist, the statment u made was very racist. i understand people say things they dont mean when they're upset, as this has made most everyone, so i dont hold you to your words.

[JakeT81588]

hey o have an idea! lets not fight, call me crazy but this is a pretty sensitive subject for some, and i really dont think u should carry that bullshit on in this thread. :) have a nice day

[SneakyPenguin]

when i said eye fr an eye, i never meant it was equal, it is not. i said that more to imply the revenge factor. it had to be expected tha the retaliation would be more extreme. i do not want to know what our retaliation will be.

[iloveqtchickz]

The sad thing is, you expect to see these kinds of things in a film. But it is really a wake up call of what we're up against.

[JakeT81588]

The sad thing is, you expect to see these kinds of things in a film. But it is really a wake up call of what we're up against.

he nailed it

[Steggy]

The sad thing is, you expect to see these kinds of things in a film. But it is really a wake up call of what we're up against.

I cant think of ANY film that shows the blatant decapatation of someone.

[JakeT81588]

kill bill

[punqsux]

i refuse to watch it. i watched the "helicopter kills" video, where you can see three men blown apart by heavy machinegun fire. i will not watch this.

now for what will make me hated. we deserved this. no him, he was entirely innocent in this situation, a victim of circumstances. but after the mistreatment of their prisoners, we had to expect retaliation. correct me if im wrong, but wasnt the US pushing for the whole geneva convention thing (i think), banning cruel and unusual punishment? to me this is just an eye for an eye.

i am very upset by this, and i feel sorry for him and his family.
I wouldn't say that the equation is equal on both sides now. This definitely not an eye for an eye. And at this point the Geneva convention is useless seeing how its been violated so many times already. But as some of you said this is what comes of war and it is to be expected.

It comes not from war, but from terrorism. War may involve the death of innocent civilians yes, but nothing this deliberate. And in no way is it an wyw for an eye. Those prisoners, many of whom probably weren't nice people to begin with, get to see their families again someday, Nick Berg will not. Sure it was a horrible experience, but they are alive and I don't see "an eye for an eye" anywhere.

i agree and disagree with you. while the crimes wernt equal, they were both terrible. this one just effects us more because it hits closer to home. i think its a safe bet that many "pow"s from iraq were just defending their country. can you honestly say if someone invaded america, no one would fight back? of course people would, and not because they hate the people on the other side, because their being threatened.

[evilmax17]

Faces of Fear

[The Successful Dropout]

i appreciate you not holding me to my words, punq...but i said "these people"....i said nothing about race, or anyone in particular, i thought everyone would understand that i meant the terrorists....but obviously people on this board would rather think someone is totally negative rather than the slightest bit positive

[CaseyRyback]

The sad thing is, you expect to see these kinds of things in a film. But it is really a wake up call of what we're up against.

I cant think of ANY film that shows the blatant decapatation of someone.

as far as a game goes Samurai Showdown features decapitation (body cut in half, but I would say Haohmaru looks decapitated when all you see is a ball of hair fly across the screen)

[The Successful Dropout]

Faces of Fear

you mean faces of death?

[Renzokuken]

I just saw that when my friend came over from work. Just like punq said, when ur at war u have to expect these things. But i believe no one should deserve a decapitation like this. At first the video didnt disturb me but when I imagine that happening to my family, it hurts.

[evilmax17]

Faces of Fear

you mean faces of death?

...yes i do! :D

[PsyClerk]

removed

[Admiral Ackbar]

The sad thing is, you expect to see these kinds of things in a film. But it is really a wake up call of what we're up against.

I cant think of ANY film that shows the blatant decapatation of someone.

Oh, there are snuff films out there that show that kinda stuff. I've never seen them myself. But they're out there. I know of one infamous one called the "Guinea Pig" series out of Asia. Supposedly it had a very famous scene of a woman getting an eyeball extracted. Haven't seen it myself. And it is fake. But it looks so realistic that some people have been arrested for having the tape because police thought the murders were real.

[JakeT81588]

dont be gay psyclerk

*flaming on Jaket begins*

[The Successful Dropout]

yeah psyclerk, whats your problem? just because i put a lot of .... in my posts means you have to be a dickhead about it?

[ZForce915]

I too would like to thank Reality's Fringe for voluntarily taking down the link. That was the right thing to do. Good work.

[SneakyPenguin]

now, my next idea may be extreme, so dont take it personally.

those who tortured the prisoners should be held responsible for his death.

they should be charged with at least reckless endangerment, maybe even manslaughter, seeing as how their arctions directly caused the death of an innocent man.

[Steggy]

Yea, and most people dont realize how bad it was that they used a knife to decapatate him. There are faster and more painless methods. They were making a statement here, and most likely bush will try to retaliate. The whole war is getting out of control and we must try to stop thngs like this from happening.

[Steggy]

I second that, thanks reality fringe for taking the link down... you gotta thin kabout the children. lol

[The Successful Dropout]

sneaky...those terrorists who did this would have done this either way....they would have just blamed it on something else....they would have blamed it on us taking saddam....or they would have just blamed it on the guy (nick berg) being jewish like they did with the wallstreet journal reporter that they killed in 2002 ( i believe), they killed him in the same way just because he was jewish (i read all of this in the new york post, if its not accurate, blame them)....the prisoners being humiliated just gave them a more recent issue to blame it on

[PsyClerk]

yeah psyclerk, whats your problem? just because i put a lot of .... in my posts means you have to be a dickhead about it?

It's massively annoying to see "..." every other damn character. Learn to use some other punctuation. Try commas, single periods, there's quite a few you could use. Using "..." all the time makes you look like a tool.

[JakeT81588]

well hey! my day is fucking awesome lets recap!

1st- i waited for like 5 hours to see the segaton announcement and guess what IT DIDNT HAPPEN

2nd- I dropped my brand new ipod mini in the toilet. yeah it seems funny, but lets see you just go ahead and flush 250 rite down the drain (get it?)

3rd- i saw the most in-humane, discusting thing ever. i am scarred for life. murder is fairly common in todays society, but this is by far the worst thing possible. to see something like this happen to someone is terrible. and to make matters worse, he was fighting for us. the lazy fucks here in america who are doing nothin, living life normally as if nothing is changed. sometimes people make me sick.

edit: stfu psyclerk. no one on the board wants to hear from you

[The Successful Dropout]

maybe i am a tool, dickhead....using "." all the time may make you look like a tool as well....last time i checked, this wasn't a classroom, and you weren't my teacher....i am spelling shit right, and using "..." in the right nature...if you don't like how i type, please don't look at my posts....if you have to look at my posts, than please understand that you're not important enough for me to change for

;o)

[Xphyle]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=106&ncid=742&e=4&u=/nypost/20040512/cm_nypost/nickbergsmurder

I applaud the journalist who wrote this article. This murder had nothing to do with the Iraqi prisoners who were abused. It was plain barbarism. Please do yourself a favor and read this quick story.

Xphyle

[The Successful Dropout]

thats one of the same articles i saw in the post this morning....thanks xphyle for posting that, it made my post on page three clearer

[Xphyle]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=106&ncid=742&e=4&u=/nypost/20040512/cm_nypost/nickbergsmurder

I applaud the journalist who wrote this article. This murder had nothing to do with the Iraqi prisoners who were abused. It was plain barbarism. Please do yourself a favor and read this quick story.

Xphyle

[PsyClerk]

removed

[JakeT81588]

/ sais fuck you psyclerk
// gets angry for psyclerk continually being off topic
/// sais fuck you psyclerk again

[The Successful Dropout]

didnt look like poking fun to me...looking like whining....but its all good...i can take it as long as you can ;o)

[JakeT81588]

so it is settled, we can all take it and we can remain on-subject

edit: i didnt think something that is seemingly so insignificant make such an impact on me. i have been like angry and upset tonight about this and i am never like this. sorry for any immaturity, im only 15 anyway

[The Successful Dropout]

back to assholes cutting off innocent heads

[evilmax17]

I found this amusing

It wasn't enough that they slaughtered the young Philadelphia businessman like a sheep and held his severed head aloft as if it were a trophy. No, they filmed the whole thing for the world to see.


Soldiers don't behave like that.


Only cowards and thugs do.

Granted, the murder is 100x worse, but come on. Trying to say that the actual "filming" of the murder was any less dehumanizing than the pictures of the Iraqi prisoner abuse? *AGAIN, THE ACTUAL MURDER IS MUCH MUCH WORSE*. But saying that "Soldiers don't behave like that.", ie: they don't film their crimes against humanity? They already did!

*edit: added "the pictures of" to be more clear

[coolsteel]

So it took awhile to track this video down, after seeing it my first thought was really I hope to God his parents didn't actually watch that, I couldn't imagine seeing your child killed in such a manner.

[The Successful Dropout]

seriously, what would you do if you were the parents? i don't think i could live any more, honestly. i would probably deeply consider suicide, until i realized that if im gonna die, i might as well just go and look for these thugs myself (most likely die trying)...most likely with no luck, but hey....what else do you have to live for?

[JakeT81588]

good call trust company. we have lots of opinions in common. look at the last 4 pages of this thread

[iloveqtchickz]

This is going to spark a huge flame in the US as racism will fly. Just like Pearl Harbor, if these things continue to happen. Today my High school had the bloodiest fight i have ever seen. And as to no surprise one of them were of Middle Eastern decent. Blood was all over the lockers and halls, as they the kids head was smashed against the lockers repeatedly, then the fight was brought outside. It was about 3 minutes before anyone was able to break up the fight, but afterwords one of the guy's shirt was covered in blood and the other was rushed to the hostpital. And where the fight was taken place was sealed off until they could clean up. My point is, hatred is in the air, stronger now than ever before.

[Renzokuken]

Im gonna play video games to get this outta my head. If only i had Drake, Bruce Lee, and Aquaman to play with...

[punqsux]

This is going to spark a huge flame in the US as racism will fly. Just like Pearl Harbor, if these things continue to happen. Today my High school had the bloodiest fight i have ever seen. And as to no surprise one of them were of Middle Eastern decent. Blood was all over the lockers and halls, as they the kids head was smashed against the lockers repeatedly, then the fight was brought outside. It was about 3 minutes before anyone was able to break up the fight, but afterwords one of the guy's shirt was covered in blood and the other was rushed to the hostpital. And where the fight was taken place was sealed off until they could clean up. My point is, hatred is in the air, stronger now than ever before.

hatered is always there with violent people. its like gasoline, any spark will set them off. really sad.

[JakeT81588]

i live in lewiston maine. it made national news when a huge rumble between the locals and the 10000 some-od somali's moved in. It was not pretty. it hasnt gotten any better either.


edit: oh yeah this was in reference to the fight u were talking about. this shit happened when black hawk down came out. people were ripped.

[punqsux]

Im gonna play video games to get this outta my head. If only i had Drake, Bruce Lee, and Aquaman to play with...

i thought u wanted to get your mind off crimes against humanity? :wink:

[The Successful Dropout]

This is going to spark a huge flame in the US as racism will fly. Just like Pearl Harbor, if these things continue to happen. Today my High school had the bloodiest fight i have ever seen. And as to no surprise one of them were of Middle Eastern decent. Blood was all over the lockers and halls, as they the kids head was smashed against the lockers repeatedly, then the fight was brought outside. It was about 3 minutes before anyone was able to break up the fight, but afterwords one of the guy's shirt was covered in blood and the other was rushed to the hostpital. And where the fight was taken place was sealed off until they could clean up. My point is, hatred is in the air, stronger now than ever before.

who won? the only time a middle eastern kid got into a fight in my school (that i can recall) was when he was going around the school saying that we deserved what happened to us on 9/11 and that it made him laugh and was the best day of his life....needless to say, he got his ass kicked pretty quick (it was one on one...it wasnt me....and im still not racist)

[Renzokuken]

Im gonna play video games to get this outta my head. If only i had Drake, Bruce Lee, and Aquaman to play with...

i thought u wanted to get your mind off crimes against humanity? :wink:

I need a crappy game to pour all my frustration and anger to. :D

[Ikohn4ever]

I am not tryin to be a dick but any non military personal that goes over to Iraq has to realize that there life is on the line. Most of these non-military folk are mercenaries hired by these big companies to protect their financial interest. They are making the big bucks over there but the risk their is so great. These companies are sending men to their death for a profit. They should wait till things cool down before they start draining Iraq of its oil

[Reality's Fringe]

Everyone should just kick back with a smooth drink and listen to "Gun Street Girl" by Tom Waits. It'll take your mind off everything, if only because it's so awesome.

[eldad9]

This proves there is evil in this world, an evil which should not be viewed by anyone.

Wow. You seriously didn't know this for a fact before?

[JakeT81588]

im underage :( everyone else on these boards are like above 21. i feel so young. can u guys tell that i am?

[Rich]

Heh, I'm so desensitized that the video doesn't effect me as much as the simple fact that an american was beheaded. The video was graphic, yes, but it didn't bother me in the least.

[suprsaiyanMAX]

I found this amusing

It wasn't enough that they slaughtered the young Philadelphia businessman like a sheep and held his severed head aloft as if it were a trophy. No, they filmed the whole thing for the world to see.


Soldiers don't behave like that.


Only cowards and thugs do.

Granted, the murder is 100x worse, but come on. Trying to say that the actual "filming" of the murder was any less dehumanizing than the pictures of the Iraqi prisoner abuse? *AGAIN, THE ACTUAL MURDER IS MUCH MUCH WORSE*. But saying that "Soldiers don't behave like that.", ie: they don't film their crimes against humanity? They already did!

*edit: added "the pictures of" to be more clear

I think the reporter was talking abou tthe beheading and holding it up like a trophy more than the filming of it all. And even if he wasn't the soldiers didn't release those photos to the world, the media made that possible. The terrorists proudly displayed their horrid act across the internet for everyone to see.

[Gothic Walrus]

I don't know what to think...I haven't seen the video, and won't if I can control that. It's disgusting, but like Sneaky said at the beginning of the thread, we can't really be surprised at this point.

I'm just hoping that it doesn't happen again...

[eldad9]

I cant think of ANY film that shows the blatant decapatation of someone.

I can think of two:

Showdown in Little Tokyo (1991) Dolph Lundgren,Brandon Lee,Tia Carrere.

Highlander (1986)
Christopher Lambert, Roxanne Hart, Sean Connery
(and sequels)

The first one is just a couple of frames of.. well.. neck.
The second one shows a head flying.
I made the mistake of watching it with a friend who was really disturbed by it. had to stop the playback for a few minutes.

[The Successful Dropout]

rich...what does bother you?

[punqsux]

Heh, I'm so desensitized that the video doesn't effect me as much as the simple fact that an american was beheaded. The video was graphic, yes, but it didn't bother me in the least.

this would bother me equally if it happened to anyone of any nationallity. odds are it wouldnt get much coverage here tho

[suprsaiyanMAX]

I am not tryin to be a dick but any non military personal that goes over to Iraq has to realize that there life is on the line. Most of these non-military folk are mercenaries hired by these big companies to protect their financial interest. They are making the big bucks over there but the risk their is so great. These companies are sending men to their death for a profit. They should wait till things cool down before they start draining Iraq of its oil

Yes, because as a telecommmunications expert, I'm sure he was busy pumping oil out of Iraq.

[The Successful Dropout]

I am not tryin to be a dick but any non military personal that goes over to Iraq has to realize that there life is on the line. Most of these non-military folk are mercenaries hired by these big companies to protect their financial interest. They are making the big bucks over there but the risk their is so great. These companies are sending men to their death for a profit. They should wait till things cool down before they start draining Iraq of its oil

Yes, because as a telecommmunications expert, I'm sure he was busy pumping oil out of Iraq.

and on that note....im going to bed

[Maynard]

i refuse to watch it. i watched the "helicopter kills" video, where you can see three men blown apart by heavy machinegun fire. i will not watch this.

now for what will make me hated. we deserved this. no him, he was entirely innocent in this situation, a victim of circumstances. but after the mistreatment of their prisoners, we had to expect retaliation. correct me if im wrong, but wasnt the US pushing for the whole geneva convention thing (i think), banning cruel and unusual punishment? to me this is just an eye for an eye.

i am very upset by this, and i feel sorry for him and his family.

I, first off, am apalled by the video. The video is one of those things where you watch it not because your forced, but because it's scary and not of the norm; and we as americans thrive on things of this nature. I watched the video and I can say that instantly my blood boiled and I'm not a violent person at all, but it sparked something in me that MADE me understand why we are in Iraq in the first place. For every one bad thing you hear about in Iraq it is said that 3 good things take place, but i'll touch more on that later.

Saddam H. has been doing this to his own people for years and years and it was tolerated because of the fear that it would happen to whomever stood up to him. Now we go over there, invade there space, dethrone their leader, and yes we rebuild Iraq. Now there will always be people who rebel against the "Norm" or "Whats right," and that is what were up against now. Now to say something as FUCKING ignorant as we deserved this, it makes me feel sad to live in the same country as you. To think that you can even say something like that brings tingles to my spine. If you were in a country and you watched your family be tortured, raped, and brutally murdered i guarantee you would welcome the American Soldiers with open arms. We are there to help, so what would warrant this POOR YOUNG MAN BEING BRUTALLY BEHEADED WHILE HE BEGS FOR HIS FUCKING LIFE SCREAMING FOR HIS FATHER??? You pathetic ignorant child, i would never wish harm on another person, but when you stoop to the level to say "We deserved this" well guess what you deserve a good kick in the ass by someone who has fought over in Iraq.

Oh and to comment on your uneducated response of "this is what happens when you torture their POW's" This video was made weeks before any of the public humiliation of the soldiers so them saying that this was in retalliation for that is B.S. The father of Nicholas Berg knew of his sons death weeks before.

Please stay in school and read your facts before you spew out hate for america or by saying "we deserved this" i dare you to stand in front of a marine who just got back and tell him that, or better yet stand in front of Nicholas' Berg father and tell him " you know what i'm sorry for what happened to him, but Mr. Berg we deserved this"

Pathetic

Maynard

PS i don't care if you hate me for this or if you sit there and make you dumb comments on grammar, oh and by the way you should probably proof read your post

OwN3d

[Rich]

Heh, I'm so desensitized that the video doesn't effect me as much as the simple fact that an american was beheaded. The video was graphic, yes, but it didn't bother me in the least.

this would bother me equally if it happened to anyone of any nationallity. odds are it wouldnt get much coverage here tho

Oh, don't get me wrong, it would bother me if it was anyone other than the terrorists themselves, I mean that an American being beheaded by the people that hate us so.



trust--watching the video multiple times does. First time through was no problem--second was enough to warrant sympathy and get pissed. Honestly, though, it's pretty depressing how desensitized I've become from the internet. I wish it wasn't so.

[Ikohn4ever]

I am not tryin to be a dick but any non military personal that goes over to Iraq has to realize that there life is on the line. Most of these non-military folk are mercenaries hired by these big companies to protect their financial interest. They are making the big bucks over there but the risk their is so great. These companies are sending men to their death for a profit. They should wait till things cool down before they start draining Iraq of its oil

Yes, because as a telecommmunications expert, I'm sure he was busy pumping oil out of Iraq.

What do u think the communications are for being able to make long distance calling? Every company that is in Iraq is because of the money and the major monetary maker is oil, that all that I meant

[suprsaiyanMAX]

Actually yes I do, at least somewhat, as I understand things he was there to inspect and rebuild communication facilities that were damaged by war and looting. While US companies and forces may use those facilites, I'm sure they aren't private as many were there before the war.

As for oil being the money maker, yeah true, but that goes for the almost entire middle east and Alaska too.

[The Successful Dropout]

I, first off, am apalled by the video. The video is one of those things where you watch it not because your forced, but because it's scary and not of the norm; and we as americans thrive on things of this nature. I watched the video and I can say that instantly my blood boiled and I'm not a violent person at all, but it sparked something in me that MADE me understand why we are in Iraq in the first place. For every one bad thing you hear about in Iraq it is said that 3 good things take place, but i'll touch more on that later.

Saddam H. has been doing this to his own people for years and years and it was tolerated because of the fear that it would happen to whomever stood up to him. Now we go over there, invade there space, dethrone their leader, and yes we rebuild Iraq. Now there will always be people who rebel against the "Norm" or "Whats right," and that is what were up against now. Now to say something as shaq-fuing ignorant as we deserved this, it makes me feel sad to live in the same country as you. To think that you can even say something like that brings tingles to my spine. If you were in a country and you watched your family be tortured, raped, and brutally murdered i guarantee you would welcome the American Soldiers with open arms. We are there to help, so what would warrant this POOR YOUNG MAN BEING BRUTALLY BEHEADED WHILE HE BEGS FOR HIS shaq-fuing LIFE SCREAMING FOR HIS FATHER??? You pathetic ignorant child, i would never wish harm on another person, but when you stoop to the level to say "We deserved this" well guess what you deserve a good kick in the ass by someone who has fought over in Iraq.

Oh and to comment on your uneducated response of "this is what happens when you torture their POW's" This video was made weeks before any of the public humiliation of the soldiers so them saying that this was in retalliation for that is B.S. The father of Nicholas Berg knew of his sons death weeks before.

Please stay in school and read your facts before you spew out hate for america or by saying "we deserved this" i dare you to stand in front of a marine who just got back and tell him that, or better yet stand in front of Nicholas' Berg father and tell him " you know what i'm sorry for what happened to him, but Mr. Berg we deserved this"


i understand your side and agree completely

as stated in the news....nick bergs body was found (i think) april 6th....i also think that it was said that it was one of the bodies that was dragged through the streets, burned, cut up, and hung up on the bridge

[evilmax17]

\i understand your side and agree completely

as stated in the news....nick bergs body was found (i think) april 6th....i also think that it was said that it was one of the bodies that was dragged through the streets, burned, cut up, and hung up on the bridge

Hey! Go to bed! :D

[suprsaiyanMAX]

Actually, his body was discovered by US Forces on May 8th I believe.

[The Successful Dropout]

sorry...i went, had to check my mail....than had to come back to see what was going on...i am going now though ;o)

[magilacudy]

im underage :( everyone else on these boards are like above 21. i feel so young. can u guys tell that i am?

Nope couldn't tell. I'm over 21 and can't bring myself to watch it despite my desensitivity.

[bmulligan]

*Edited*

I edited this post to remove the link. While I feel that people need to see reality, I can respect the fact that it is indeed a touchy subject and a direct link is not proper.

People who don't want to see it shouldn't click on the link. People who don't want to watch it for 'conscience' reasons or because they don't want to see evil things or are too afraid are pussies, plain and simple.

This should be required viewing by every freedom loving american in this country. Don't fool yourselves, this was no retaliation for mistreatment of prisoners. This is standard operating procedure for those wasteoids we call terrorists. It will not stop if we treat prisoners better, it will not stop if we leave Iraq. It will not stop until all americans are dead, period. When they run out of americans, christians and jews, they will go back to killing their own as they do on an every other day schedule. They intend to rule by fear and terror and they need us out of the way in order to do so.

There will be no appeasment of their kind, no deals, no treaties because they have only one objective: Death to all opposition of their authority to speak for god. Because of this fact, our objective is also clear.

We cannot afford to be soft because they will not stop. Weakness will only expidite their goal to destroy us. How many other ways can I say this until some of you marshmallows get it through your skulls? That man who's head got cut off was YOU, or will be if we give them any room for hope. Regardless of your political opinions, they will not stop until YOU are the one on the chopping block. Who would you rather see get sawed next? One of them, or one of your own? We need to desensitize ourselves and start getting angry about these people and start exterminating them before they can sharpen those saws.

[evilmax17]

*Edited*

I edited this post to remove the link. While I feel that people need to see reality, I can respect the fact that it is indeed a touchy subject and a direct link is not proper.

People who don't want to see it shouldn't click on the link. People who don't want to watch it for 'conscience' reasons or because they don't want to see evil things or are too afraid are pussies, plain and simple.

This should be required viewing by every freedom loving american in this country. Don't fool yourselves, this was no retaliation for mistreatment of prisoners. This is standard operating procedure for those wasteoids we call terrorists. It will not stop if we treat prisoners better, it will not stop if we leave Iraq. It will not stop until all americans are dead, period. When they run out of americans, christians and jews, they will go back to killing their own as they do on an every other day schedule. They intend to rule by fear and terror and they need us out of the way in order to do so.

There will be no appeasment of their kind, no deals, no treaties because they have only one objective: Death to all opposition of their authority to speak for god. Because of this fact, our objective is also clear.

We cannot afford to be soft because they will not stop. Weakness will only expidite their goal to destroy us. How many other ways can I say this until some of you marshmallows get it through your skulls? That man who's head got cut off was YOU, or will be if we give them any room for hope. Regardless of your political opinions, they will not stop until YOU are the one on the chopping block. Who would you rather see get sawed next? One of them, or one of your own? We need to desensitize ourselves and start getting angry about these people and start exterminating them before they can sharpen those saws.

So when do YOU ship out for Iraq?

[bmulligan]

as soon as you grow some balls

[Maynard]

now, my next idea may be extreme, so dont take it personally.

those who tortured the prisoners should be held responsible for his death.

they should be charged with at least reckless endangerment, maybe even manslaughter, seeing as how their arctions directly caused the death of an innocent man.

You are in high school aren't you?
If so thats good just be sure to stay in it and maintain a b+ average my god

You know what makes me so mad at you is that i got friends and family over there in Iraq and you have absolutely no clue what they are going through mentally. My friend Louis had to see one of his friends get dragged around in the street, imagine what that does to your morale and imagine how much hate that breeds. Just do yourself a favor everyone is intitled to in opinion, it's just my advice that i would keep the rest of your uneducated, dumb, and retarded ideas to yourself on this topic because your making yourself look REALLY ignorant thanks,

Maynerd

*edited for the rest of content thought i needed to add more*

[punqsux]

now, my next idea may be extreme, so dont take it personally.

those who tortured the prisoners should be held responsible for his death.

they should be charged with at least reckless endangerment, maybe even manslaughter, seeing as how their arctions directly caused the death of an innocent man.

You are in high school aren't you?
If so thats good just be sure to stay in it and maintain a b+ average my god

You know what makes me so mad at you is that i got friends and family over there in Iraq and you have absolutely no clue what they are going through mentally. My friend Louis had to see one of his friends get dragged around in the street, imagine what that does to your morale and imagine how much hate that breeds. Just do yourself a favor everyone is intitled to in opinion, it's just my advice that i would keep the rest of your uneducated, dumb, and retarded ideas to yourself on this topic because your making yourself look REALLY ignorant thanks,

Maynerd

*edited for the rest of content thought i needed to add more*

while i dont agree with him on that, hes not making himself look ignorant, your responses to him are making you look closed minded.

"OMGzZ go b4kK t0 t3h high sk3wl!1!!"

judging people on age is pretty weak.

as for your friends and family in iraq, i hope they return safley, as i hope everyone does. but they enlisted. and to me enlisting in the military pretty much puts your life in the hands of people that dont know what they are doing.

im sure their direct leader is somewhat comptent, but do you relly think the people in dc do anything for the good of the troops? they sure do, any time it will make them look good on tv. i really feel sorry for anyone in the military being toyed around with by the gov.

how many times have your friends been told they would come home on X date, only to have that pushed back 6 months or more? i dont see why anyone would sign up for service because its clear that the gov. dosent care about morale or human emotions.

i cant wait to leave this country

[Maynard]

I know i shouldn't be judging on age, but with age comes wisdom and unfortunately i remember being in high school and saying all sorts of stupid things, only to regret them later. They've been told they were coming home numerous times they finally got to my friends did at least 101st, got to come home which was nice. I sorta of chuckled because i think you look as if your young enough to probably be a junior or senior in high school and you sorta proved my statement in a little way

"i can't wait to leave america"

Laugh, i used to same the same ole' shit when i was in high school because i thought i was so oppressed, but until you've gone out of america, and not canada doesn't count sorry :P, you'll realize that america really has alot going for it, that's why are women and men go over there to fight because they've traveled they realize that the rest of this world pretty much sucks compared to us, honestly

Maynerd

[punqsux]

I know i shouldn't be judging on age, but with age comes wisdom and unfortunately i remember being in high school and saying all sorts of stupid things, only to regret them later. They've been told they were coming home numerous times they finally got to my friends did at least 101st, got to come home which was nice. I sorta of chuckled because i think you look as if your young enough to probably be a junior or senior in high school and you sorta proved my statement in a little way

"i can't wait to leave america"

Laugh, i used to same the same ole' shit when i was in high school because i thought i was so oppressed, but until you've gone out of america, and not canada doesn't count sorry :P, you'll realize that america really has alot going for it, that's why are women and men go over there to fight because they've traveled they realize that the rest of this world pretty much sucks compared to us, honestly

Maynerd

well, im not in high school, i often get mistaken for looking young, but im 21 and in art school. im not oppressed in anyway, i just really disagree with alot of the choices the gov. makes, and i would move to canada, i love canada. i grew up less than 5 mins from the boarder and its such a more positive place to be than america. these less tension there, the people are more friendly. its just a nice place. i know "the grass is always greener on the other side" but i honestly believe canada cares about its people. their gov. is comparably small to the US, which makes it easier for people to be heard.

[PsyClerk]

Canada has a lot less people to look after though, and that makes a huge difference.

As for the age thing, take a look at some of the responses I got last night for a friggin' joke. How can you take anyone seriously who resorts to namecalling or 'stfu'? I can almost always tell when a poster is a teenager and then I usually pay them no mind. Sadly the difference cannot be explained, only learned through experience.

BTW, punqsux your sig banner is great. Got a big laugh first time I saw it.

[SneakyPenguin]

so you're saying i have a right to voice my opinions, but keep them to myself? i am in high school, big whoop. i have personal feeling on this war. i support the troops, but this was jsut another act of war. a very brutal, and probably unjustified act, but still, it's war. it has to be expected.

lets just agree to disagree and not make this a flame war.

[punqsux]

Canada has a lot less people to look after though, and that makes a huge difference.

you are correct sir =o)

another reason is that they are a more peaceful nation. i believe the last war they were heavily involved in was WWII, i could be wrong, i know they lend support sometimes, but we've had 5 major wars since then, and 6 if you count the cold war.

[PsyClerk]

so your saying i have a right to voice my opinions, but keep them to myself? i am in high school, big whoop. i have personal feeling on this war. i support the troops, but this was jsut another act of war. a very brutal, and probably unjustified act, but still, it's war. it has to be expected.

I'm not saying that at all. I am saying don't expect me not to color your opinions in my own mind and react (or not react) on that. At your age, I thought I had all the answers, too. Trust me, ten years from now you will be doing good if you aren't thinking "damn kids don't know anything these days!"

[SneakyPenguin]

so your saying i have a right to voice my opinions, but keep them to myself? i am in high school, big whoop. i have personal feeling on this war. i support the troops, but this was jsut another act of war. a very brutal, and probably unjustified act, but still, it's war. it has to be expected.

I'm not saying that at all. I am saying don't expect me not to color your opinions in my own mind and react (or not react) on that. At your age, I thought I had all the answers, too. Trust me, ten years from now you will be doing good if you aren't thinking "damn kids don't know anything these days!"

im sorry if you got the idea, but i was not referring to you, i was referring to Meynard. i was only trying to defend my position.

and btw, i already hate kids :P

[snotknocker]

That video was appalling. I'm kinda sick to my stomach. To think I felt like condoning the Iraqi prisoner abuse even though I know it's wrong. Hmmmm I wonder why? Oh what the hell do I know. It's people like me that assure hate in the world will never die only manifest.

[E-Z-B]

*Edited*

I edited this post to remove the link. While I feel that people need to see reality, I can respect the fact that it is indeed a touchy subject and a direct link is not proper.

People who don't want to see it shouldn't click on the link. People who don't want to watch it for 'conscience' reasons or because they don't want to see evil things or are too afraid are pussies, plain and simple.

This should be required viewing by every freedom loving american in this country. Don't fool yourselves, this was no retaliation for mistreatment of prisoners. This is standard operating procedure for those wasteoids we call terrorists. It will not stop if we treat prisoners better, it will not stop if we leave Iraq. It will not stop until all americans are dead, period. When they run out of americans, christians and jews, they will go back to killing their own as they do on an every other day schedule. They intend to rule by fear and terror and they need us out of the way in order to do so.

There will be no appeasment of their kind, no deals, no treaties because they have only one objective: Death to all opposition of their authority to speak for god. Because of this fact, our objective is also clear.

We cannot afford to be soft because they will not stop. Weakness will only expidite their goal to destroy us. How many other ways can I say this until some of you marshmallows get it through your skulls? That man who's head got cut off was YOU, or will be if we give them any room for hope. Regardless of your political opinions, they will not stop until YOU are the one on the chopping block. Who would you rather see get sawed next? One of them, or one of your own? We need to desensitize ourselves and start getting angry about these people and start exterminating them before they can sharpen those saws.

So you propose ethnic cleansing?

I find your comments VERY stereotypical and insulting to those Arabs who have nothing to do with terrorism or violence.


http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/13/iraq.berg/index.html
Three Arab states -- Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the United Arab Emirates --- are condemning the beheading of American Nicholas Berg by his Iraqi captors, shown in a video that appeared on an Islamist Web site.

"There is no doubt that killing detainees and mutilating the remains of the dead are acts which are condemned by all religions and contrary to the morals of all nations and peoples," Saudi Ambassador Prince Bandar bin Sultan said in a statement released Wednesday.

"The Al-Zarqawi group is a criminal, deviant and un-Islamic group, allied with bin Laden and the criminals of Al Qaeda who are killing even Muslims and Arabs for no reason.

"Accordingly, it is not out of character for them to commit acts that violate the teachings of Islam, a noble religion that deplores such acts."

What makes you think americans have more rights then anyone else?

[MaxBiaggi3]

I saw a brief clip of the video online recently, and I must agree it's quite disturbing. The clip I saw had an erratic frame rate and lacked sound, but it was still pretty unsettling. I've seen lots of movies over the years that are considerably more graphic than this, but the fact that this video showed a "real" person being murdered was the part that got to me. That's the part that made feel sick afterward.

I can't imagine living in a place where such barbaric violence is condoned, and I certainly wouldn't want to visit there either for any amount of money that Halliburton could pay me. Hopefully, enough rational people will see this video and put some serious thought into what should be done about it so that action will eventually be taken to minimize the chances of any more videos like this ever being made.

[carlagyrl]

I had the misfortune to see this clip. I really wish I hadn't. I had nightmares and it is really hard to get the image out of my head. I just don't understand how one human being can do that to another. My heart and prayers really do go out to that mans family. I really do hope that they can find peace one day.

[Moxio]

Horrible.

I was tempted to be an idiot and watch the movie... but I couldn't gather the heart to watch him fall.

Man.

I looked in the paper today, I saw his family crying their eyes out. It broke my heart.

[thingsfallnapart]

I don't take life seriously because of things like this anymore. Watch the movie "The Day The Earth Stood Still" has a good message for things like this.

[starman98]

If I had a shotgun I would shoot the cocksuckers who did this. Poor guy.

[thingsfallnapart]

why shoot them? theres no point anymore in any of this. This world is gonna end someday and im very mad at all of us for letting this go on. We're all selfish and all so stuck up in protecting our beliefs that this stuff happens. We have no one to blame but ourselves, each and all.

[punqsux]

why shoot them? theres no point anymore in any of this. This world is gonna end someday and im very mad at all of us for letting this go on. We're all selfish and all so stuck up in protecting our beliefs that this stuff happens. We have no one to blame but ourselves, each and all.

id agree, violence counter acting violence can only build up like a snowball going down a hill, eventully it'll hit a tree and smash into a million pieces while destroying itself. and i'd say we're pretty far down that hill

[Theenternal]

Im well aware of how cruel things can be in this world.

When I was in Italy last year, I was with another US class that was being tought by a local italian. We visited a memorial park, where in this town the nazi's, in the middle of the night had rounded up all the local men. Then brought them to this ditch and killed them one by one in front of one another. The crime was witnessed by villager who was hiding. In addition not all of them died right away so they were tossed, shot in the head waiting, while watching others die.

Stone memorials were there with each person and their picture.

all this stuff... 9/11.. etc. Think of how lucky we are in comparison, yea some hate the US. But would you rather be in a grass hut with flies bothering you all day?

Berg, should be remember and not forgotten. The reason im not looking at this. Is not that I can't stomach it. Its that I feel that the least I can do is remember what caused this, and be thankful for what I have. And I can owe it to the guy not to see his head being cut off. Honestly if it happened to one of the regulars in here. A CAG friend like Punqsux, would you still watch it?

[The Successful Dropout]

how about we all make a difference and vote this year (even though the voting system may suck, it still "might" work)

[loserboy]

Duh...of course you should vote. Have never missed any election local or federal...been voting as a good democrat since the doomed Mondale/Ferraro ticket of 1984...

Each vote does make a difference...the 2000 election proved that.

Don't like what's going on...vote vote vote.

[MrBadExample]

I watched the video yesterday and it was very disturbing to say the least. I'm glad the film quality wasn't any better or I would have puked. And the screaming was the worst.

The pictures coming out of Iraq are sickening on both sides. This is what war breeds. I will always respect the leaders who choose peace over war.

The reason this war is so problematic for a lot of people is that it was pre-emptive. We chose to go to war even though Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. We did not have to have this war and now it's a fucking mess. We have created more terrorists than we have eliminated and we will be fighting this war for generations.

[bmulligan]

The reason this war is so problematic for a lot of people is that it was pre-emptive. We chose to go to war even though Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. We did not have to have this war and now it's a shaq-fuing mess. We have created more terrorists than we have eliminated and we will be fighting this war for generations.

first of all the war was not pre-emptive. We are enforcing the UN resolution 1441 alond with previous resolutions, because the UN did not have the fortitude to do so itself. Funny thing about leadership by committee, it never seems to get anything done. Everyone keeps saying this war was becauase of 9/11 and bush said there was a link but this is simply untrue. If the UN had the backbone to force Sadam to capitulate in the first place, perhaps none of this would have turned out as it has. Remeber, there was one person besises George Bush who could have prevented all of this: Saddam Hussein. All he had to do was stop fucking around and none of this would have happened.

I suggest you go to the UN website and read resolutions 1441, 1134, 1115, 707,700, 687 and others.

here's a good place to start:
http://www.iraqwatch.org/un/Index_SecCounRes.html

you will see a pattern of misbehavior, a pattern of threatened enforcement, a pattern of avoidence by Saddam to thwart the world opinion. Peace is a good thing, yes, but peace at all costs is not always the best alternative. We waited until the Pearl Harbor attack to enter WWII because of the same philosophy. Unfortunately, going to war is sometimes necessary to defeat an evil before it can become too powerful.

[MrBadExample]

I have never heard anyone argue yet that this was wasn't pre-emptive. It was. They did not attack us first.

It was hard for Saddam to turn over all his WMD (our "original recipe" excuse for going to war) when he apparently didn't have any. If they are found after I post this, I will issue a retraction.

And when did it become our job to enforce every UN resolution? And why wasn't it a UN force if that was the reason?

[bmulligan]

I guess you'll have to as the UN why they don't feel the need to enforce resolutions. It was not pre-emptive, it was enforcement. How many times does a police officer have to tell you to put your hands up before you get shot? 3 times? 30 times? 12 years ? there comes a time when someone has to actually stand in front of the line drawn in the sand.

Saddam may not have had these so-called WMD, but then that's all the more reason to stop dicking around with the inspecrtion process and allow 'complete and unfettered' access, which he never did, nor intended to do.

Why is it our job to enforce resolutions? When the potential implications of procrastination could pose a threat to our security, not only in a direct sense of WMD being deployed, but any terrorist sponsoring nation that sees Saddams defiance as a free pass to develop weapons of their own and hold other parts of the world hostage at a future date.

Someone, sometime has to put such a nation on notice or a potential global problem could erupt. No one else ever wants to 'rock the boat', so to speak. European nations are littered with the ain;'t broke don't fix it philosophy. Unfortunately, glossing over such insurrections only seem to lead to problems that always end up having to fix be fixed sooner or later.

[chizwaz]

at least give credit to george carlin in your quote, Reality's Fringe

[MrBadExample]

Pre-emptive: hitting the other guy before he can hit you. That's what we did. It's not even debatable.

Bush had a hard-on to go after Saddam as soon as he took office. Read Bob Woodward's book - he had plans drawn up before 9/11. The UN resolutions were an excuse. Bush has never shown any respect for the UN except when it was convenient for him.

Saddam is a complete tool but he was confined to his own country. The international terrorists that actually attacked us came from Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan. But the Saudi royals are good friends with the Bush family so we can't attack them.

[bmulligan]

The UN resolutions were not an excuse they were the CAUSE. And it's not like we didn't give Saddam any chance to comply. We finally gave the ultamaitm in Novenber of 2002, months after countless debate in the UN. Then we gave him another 5 months to comply. Should we have given him 5 more months, 6, 7 12? forever? For those who favor peace at all costs, delay and denial are always the best option.

Of course there were plans already. Everyone keeps hammering the fact that there was a plan to invade Iraq before 9/11. Isn't that the our government's job? Don't you think there were pklans to do the same during the Clinton administration? Don't you think there are 'plans' to invade N. Korea or at least certain contingency plans for a number of millitary operations? Don't you think there was a plan to attack Germany and Japan before the Pearl Harbor attack? If you think not, then you're being naive.

Saddam is a complete tool but he was confined to his own country. The international terrorists that actually attacked us came from Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan.

Yes, and the Iraqi clerics and extremists who trained in afganistan were confined also. People who don't think there are links between Iraq and Al-Queda are fooling themselves. There may not have been offical, documented links, but there were relationships nonetheless.

I really can't argue for the war as it has been implemented. I'm not a republican, nor a Bush supporter. Things haven't gone right, nor were they done right in the first place.

We both seem to have our own preformed opinions about the subject so arguing war or not war seems rather pointless. There is much blame to go around, and with all the information you seem to have in front of you, I find it fascinating thast you can blame President Bush for all the worlds ills. Your opinions seems to be more along partisan lines than objective fact.

[MrBadExample]

No, the people who say there were no links between Iraq and Al Qaeda are waiting for someone to offer proof of a link between them. And for all the flak Bush has gotten for starting this war, if he had proof, he would have presented it by now. Just saying there is a link doens't make it so.

And I have never blamed Bush for all of the problems in the world. But he will take the blame for starting this war and all of the fallout from it.

[dsullo]

I saw this thread and felt the need to express my feeling about the american that was brutally killed. I could not bring myself to watch the video. I could not stomach seeing something that horrible.

I will tell you that I was talking to my mother on the phone (she lives in another state) and as we were talking I heard this person screaming in the background. I said "Mom, what the hell is going on over there." She told me she had the radio on and the station was playing the audio from it.
My stomach turned for hours.

I am a parent , and I feel for the family. As a parent I could not go on if someone did that to my child.

Dustin

[MrBadExample]

That fucked-up that a radio station would play it. The screaming was very disturbing.

[bmulligan]

I hate to use your own logic against you but just saying there isn't a link doesn't make it true either. You still continue to leave at the other part responsible for this: Saddam Hussein. Had he given in and given the UN free reign, this all could have been avoided.

Do you believe these terrorists are against us because we invaded and rid the world of Saddam Hussein? Then I hope you do not also agree with the position that we should leave the torturous dictators alone and let them have free reign everywhere in the world. These terrorists want exactly the same thing: they want the freedom to terrorize peaceful islamics and force them to live by their rules. The US represents the opposition to rule by terror. Unfortunately, the recent acts committed upon prisoners have tainted that objective. Still, these vile acts pale in comparison to sawing someones head off with a knife, or shooting them in the head, or blowing them up with dynamite, which is the MO of most of the terrorists.

[MaxBiaggi3]

The reason this war is so problematic for a lot of people is that it was pre-emptive. We chose to go to war even though Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. We did not have to have this war and now it's a shaq-fuing mess. We have created more terrorists than we have eliminated and we will be fighting this war for generations.

I agree with you whole-heartedly. 9/11, al Qeada and Osama bin Laden are a completely separate issue from Iraq and Saddam Housein. It also doesn't help matters that Iraq has the world's second largest oil reserves and that W's cabinet is made up of a who's who list from the U.S. oil industry. Throw in some multi-million dollar no-bid contracts for Halliburton, and I don't see how any rational person could deny the multiple conflicts of interest here.

[asaraa]

I'm with you bmulligan.


Although we havn't found "stockpiles" of WMDs in Iraq, we have found:

-- chemical and biological weapons systems, plans, "recipes" and equipment, all of which could have resumed production on a moment's notice with Saddam's approval;

-- reference strains of a wide variety of biological-weapons agents (found in the home of a prominent Iraqi biological warfare scientist);

-- new research on brucella and Congo-Crimean hemorrhagic fever, and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin;

-- a prison laboratory complex for testing biological weapons on humans;

-- long-range missiles (prohibited by United Nations resolutions) suitable for delivering WMDs;

-- documents showing Saddam tried to obtain long-range ballistic missiles from North Korea;

-- facilities for manufacturing fuel propellant useful only for prohibited Scud-variant missiles.

[abates17]

I think it's funny that people are willing to blame Bush for the fallout from events in Iraq (specifically, the decapitation), but don't realize (or won't admit) that Iraq has been doing the same thing to its citizens for years. So, it's okay for people to get decapitated on a daily basis, as long as they're not Americans? It's okay for people to starve a pack of wild dogs for weeks, then throw a man's wife in to be ripped to shreds, while the husband is forced to watch? Do these people who keep crying, "Bring Our Soldiers Home" even stop to think about what will happen to the ordinary citizens of Iraq if U.S. power is removed? But I guess as long as Americans are okay, who cares what happens to people halfway across the world?

[bobo2k4]

I havent seen the vid yet...well because i dont have the heart too.

But could the video have been fake?
This guy has some good points.

http://tradegamesnow.com/f_me.cfm?thid=46162

[E-Z-B]

I think it's funny that people are willing to blame Bush for the fallout from events in Iraq (specifically, the decapitation), but don't realize (or won't admit) that Iraq has been doing the same thing to its citizens for years. So, it's okay for people to get decapitated on a daily basis, as long as they're not Americans? It's okay for people to starve a pack of wild dogs for weeks, then throw a man's wife in to be ripped to shreds, while the husband is forced to watch? Do these people who keep crying, "Bring Our Soldiers Home" even stop to think about what will happen to the ordinary citizens of Iraq if U.S. power is removed? But I guess as long as Americans are okay, who cares what happens to people halfway across the world?

African warlords have been abusing human rights for years. They decorate their guns with human organs like having intestines dangling from their guns. Why hasn't bush gone in and stopped that, nor even bothered to talk about it?

9/11, al Qeada and Osama bin Laden are a completely separate issue from Iraq and Saddam Housein. It also doesn't help matters that Iraq has the world's second largest oil reserves and that W's cabinet is made up of a who's who list from the U.S. oil industry. Throw in some multi-million dollar no-bid contracts for Halliburton, and I don't see how any rational person could deny the multiple conflicts of interest here.

There's your answer.

[ZarathosNY]

I'm with you bmulligan.


Although we havn't found "stockpiles" of WMDs in Iraq, we have found:

-- chemical and biological weapons systems, plans, "recipes" and equipment, all of which could have resumed production on a moment's notice with Saddam's approval;

-- reference strains of a wide variety of biological-weapons agents (found in the home of a prominent Iraqi biological warfare scientist);

-- new research on brucella and Congo-Crimean hemorrhagic fever, and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin;

-- a prison laboratory complex for testing biological weapons on humans;

-- long-range missiles (prohibited by United Nations resolutions) suitable for delivering WMDs;

-- documents showing Saddam tried to obtain long-range ballistic missiles from North Korea;

-- facilities for manufacturing fuel propellant useful only for prohibited Scud-variant missiles.


Dude, alll this stuff you listed is not true. Nothing of this sort was found. The long range missle that you mention are the missles that were over the UN limit by 5 miles, and they were in the process of destroying them before we went in. The inspectors were doing their job, and Bush couldn't wait. So instead of taking care of Al-queda and Afghanistan, which are the real threats, we rolled over a country that was no threat to us. We have spent 0ver 150 billion on Iraq, and only 10 billion on Afghanistan. Al-queda was a higher priority and Bush blew it.

[abates17]

African warlords have been abusing human rights for years. They decorate their guns with human organs like having intestines dangling from their guns. Why hasn't bush gone in and stopped that, nor even bothered to talk about it?

Help me out here: Which African warlords have been abusing human rights for years, have proven themselves to be a threat both to their countrymen and the rest of the world, have had numerous U.N. resolutions that they have violated, and have proven resistant to other forms of coercion such as sanctions?

There's your answer.

Ah yes, the famous "we're in it for the oil" theory. Yes, it's obvious that the U.S. went in just to get the rich Iraqi oil, as demonstrated by the plummeting gas prices all across the U.S. Oh, wait a second....

It would be nice if it were that simple, wouldn't it? The oil-hungry U.S. government swooped in to relieve Iraq of their precious oil. But of course, it never is that simple. Why would the U.S. spend 400 billion dollars to acquire what is estimated to be 40 billion dollars worth of oil? And the Halliburton contract seems suspicious, until you look at what te company actually does, and realize that there really is no other company that does what Halliburton does. A no-bid contract makes more sense in that situation.

As for the link between Al Qaeda and Iraq, why does their have to be a direct link to justify resolving the Iraq situation? It's like the man whose daughter gets bitten by a scorpion, so he goes into the yard and kills all the scorpions and snakes that he can find. "But wait!" cries the neighbor. "Why are you killing the snakes?? Your daughter got bitten by a scorpion, not a snake!" After 9/11, the U.S. realized that it could not wait around for Saddam to gain more power, could not afford to wait until Hussein had attacked the U.S.

As with much of politics, the Iraq situation was a combination of many things, not the simple one-reason explanation that people like to throw around. So if you would like to find another dictator that has all the characteristics that Iraq had, then you might have a case that the U.S. should deal with them as well. But I'm willing to bet that you can't find one.[/quote]

[E-Z-B]

Ah yes, the famous "we're in it for the oil" theory. Yes, it's obvious that the U.S. went in just to get the rich Iraqi oil, as demonstrated by the plummeting gas prices all across the U.S. Oh, wait a second....

It would be nice if it were that simple, wouldn't it? The oil-hungry U.S. government swooped in to relieve Iraq of their precious oil. But of course, it never is that simple. Why would the U.S. spend 400 billion dollars to acquire what is estimated to be 40 billion dollars worth of oil? And the Halliburton contract seems suspicious, until you look at what te company actually does, and realize that there really is no other company that does what Halliburton does. A no-bid contract makes more sense in that situation.

As for the link between Al Qaeda and Iraq, why does their have to be a direct link to justify resolving the Iraq situation? It's like the man whose daughter gets bitten by a scorpion, so he goes into the yard and kills all the scorpions and snakes that he can find. "But wait!" cries the neighbor. "Why are you killing the snakes?? Your daughter got bitten by a scorpion, not a snake!" After 9/11, the U.S. realized that it could not wait around for Saddam to gain more power, could not afford to wait until Hussein had attacked the U.S.

As with much of politics, the Iraq situation was a combination of many things, not the simple one-reason explanation that people like to throw around. So if you would like to find another dictator that has all the characteristics that Iraq had, then you might have a case that the U.S. should deal with them as well. But I'm willing to bet that you can't find one.

Sure I can - how about Kim in North Korea? Our approach with Korea (a country that admits they have WMD by the way) is one of diplomacy. Why didn't bush try that with iraq instead of going gung-ho as soon as he went into office?

You realize that it takes years to refine oil, right? So the oil we took over in iraq won't even reach our markets anyway for a long time yet. And bush didn't know it would cost 400 billion in iraq. His cronies estimated much lower initially, then had to go in front of congress two or three times to ask for more money.

Then you go into comparing arabs with scorpions and snakes. :roll:

And how does a no-bid contract "make sense"?

[dracula]

So if you would like to find another dictator that has all the characteristics that Iraq had, then you might have a case that the U.S. should deal with them as well. But I'm willing to bet that you can't find one.

Sure I can - how about Kim in North Korea? Our approach with Korea (a country that admits they have WMD by the way) is one of diplomacy. Why didn't bush try that with iraq instead of going gung-ho as soon as he went into office?

You realize that it takes years to refine oil, right? So the oil we took over in iraq won't even reach our markets anyway for a long time yet. And bush didn't know it would cost 400 billion in iraq. His cronies estimated much lower initially, then had to go in front of congress two or three times to ask for more money.

Then you go into comparing arabs with scorpions and snakes. :roll:

And how does a no-bid contract "make sense"?

KIM chong il has access to nukes so we dont attack them,(he would use nukes on our friends in japan and south korea) we attacked iraq before they obtained nukes, that was probably the right decision. THo really we should have removed saddam in 1991 in the first Iraq war.

If north korea did no thave nukes, then we could put KIM chong il out of power as well, he has done much worse than decapitating his people.

[abates17]

Sure I can - how about Kim in North Korea? Our approach with Korea (a country that admits they have WMD by the way) is one of diplomacy. Why didn't bush try that with iraq instead of going gung-ho as soon as he went into office?

The difference is oil. Iraq is floating on a sea of oil, whereas North Korea has no such resources. That makes Iraq much less susceptible to tactics such as sanctions, since Saddam has routinely been able to funnel money from the Oil For Food program and put it into his military and palaces, while the Iraqi people have suffered. Also, there has been evidence that other countries have been illegally buying oil from Iraq, providing even more funding for Saddam's regime. North Korea has no such resources, so diplomacy and sanctions have a much better chance of working.

As for "going gung-ho," diplomacy had been tried for over a decade with Iraq. What do you think all of those U.N. resolutions were about? Saddam repeatedly claimed that he had no illegal weapons, even though it was discovered time and again that he did. Diplomacy was tried for quite a long time, yet Saddam's regime grew stronger and stronger.

You realize that it takes years to refine oil, right? So the oil we took over in iraq won't even reach our markets anyway for a long time yet.

Please provide some evidence that we have actually been taking oil from Iraq. Otherwise, you are just making up facts to support your theories.

And bush didn't know it would cost 400 billion in iraq. His cronies estimated much lower initially, then had to go in front of congress two or three times to ask for more money.

Again, you're just flat-out wrong. I believe the initial esitmates were actually higher than 400 billion. Do you really think that no one bothered to do the math before going ahead with the actions against Iraq? If the U.S. really just wanted to get cheap oil, they could have lifted economic sanctions against Iraq anytime, and had all the cheap oil they wanted. Having outrageous theories is one thing; basing your entire theory on the assumption that the administration can't do simple math is just ludicrous.

Then you go into comparing arabs with scorpions and snakes.

But my point remains that September 11 can affect U.S. foreign policy towards Iraq, even if Iraq had nothing directly to do with those events.

And how does a no-bid contract "make sense"?

What do you need explained? Halliburton is the only company that does what they do; why would they have to bid for the contract?

[dracula]

speaking of (not so) outrageous theories: the video is most likely bogus(this is from tradegamesnow.com and not my theory)

Evidence

1) Most people replied by asserting that the execution occured as retribution to the abuse photos that had surfaced, but you have to ask yourself - do these terrorists, who are clearly capable of brainwashing people to the point where they are willing to kill and be killed for their beliefs, really have no concept of political tact? Here they are, the whole world screaming at the US for hypocrisy and injustice over these pictures, and they perform and publish this execution right in the heat of the scandal. In other words, these masters of brainwashing and spin and deception release a video of a despicable act just as the US, their sworn enemy, is being globally grilled. Does this make sense to you?

2) Second, I wonder what the standard issue chair is at Abu Ghraib prison doing in this video?

The same white chair nick is sitting on...
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-05/08/xinsrc_400501100951469170513.jpg
http://radio-canada.ca/nouvelles/ressources/images/normales/n/ni/040511nick-berg-video_n.jpg


3) Is it not interesting that the wall colour at Abu Ghraib prison is identical to that of the video?


4) Is it not also interesting that Berg is wearing the same orange jumpsuit worn by prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison? Sure, you say, perhaps he was kidnapped directly from the prison (as stupid as this sounds, anyway) - but then can you please explain (7)?

5) Is it also not interesting that the timecodes in the video jump back and forth?

6) Is it also not interesting that Berg did not exhibit any of the convulsions that typically accompany decapitation?

http://www.ahsc.arizona.edu/uac/iacuc/rodents/avma.htm
I am suggesting here that Berg was already dead when the decapitation occured (which accounts for

5). Before you go calling me crazy, please review the evidence; why did he not exhibit the convulsions that go hand in hand with decapitation (especially such an extended one)?

7) Is it not curious that the US denies contact with Berg, and yet his friends and family insist that he told them he was being held by the US? Huh? Why?

8) Another tape oddity - the men SPEAK RUSSIAN for part of the tape. Not only that, but they speak Arabic with Russian accents. That's right, in the final seconds of the tape, one of the men speaks in Russian. Those here who understand russian (and have the stomach to view that final seconds of the video) can verify this. Those who speak Arabic will be able to verify that these men speak Arabic in Russian accents.

9) Finally (the physical evidence that will convince you in case you already aren't)...
You will notice, in watching the video, that 6 times, a gold ring flashes on the hand of the executioner. What is the problem? Islam completely and utterly forbids men to wear gold rings. This fanatical muslim, willing to kill in a gutwrenching manner, and be killed for his beliefs, is violating one of the clear prohibitions of his religion? Really? DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO YOU?

10) Nick Berg understands Arabic or was learning , but sits calmy while statement is read, waiting to be killed. Hmm?

11) One of the executioners is wearing Air Jordans. WHAT?

edit 2:

12) The "terrorists" signed the video, yet they wear hoods and masks. Why?

13) The "terrorists" have lily white hands.

14) The video time is in US Military English. What the hell?

Conclusion
As many has suspected, but have not had the time to build a solid case for, the execution of Nick Berg was performed by coalition interests (most likely independent Russian mercenaries) in order to dwarf the abuse pictures and sway public opinion back against the Iraqis and in support of the war by taking advantage of the emotional reaction we all experience when hearing of such an despicable act. The poor production quality (all the "curiosities" I have pointed out) of this video can be attributed to the haste in which it was made after the order was given to distract the public from the abuse scandal, and is in line with my conclusion.

Again, before you attack my conclusion, attack my evidence. No matter how crazy you think this sounds, examine the evidence objectively and please try to deny a single thing I have said. If you cannot deny my evidence, you logically cannot deny my conclusion. Make your replies free of subjective opinions .

Sources:

Chair, wall, timecode, and :

http://www.libertyforum.org/showfla...=-1#Post1469025

http://www.news24houston.com/conten...D=28906&SecID=2

Berg was in US custody:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast...ends/index.html


Gold rings forbidden by Islam:
http://www.khilafah.com/home/catego...ID=9529&TagID=2
http://www.google.com/search?q=gold...=utf-8&oe=utf-8


PS: In other news, the video that the US used to incriminate Bin Laden in masterminding the 9/11 attacks was a fake.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osamatape.html
Judge for yourself.
Once you have made up your mind, please ask yourself why the government would want to fake Bin Laden's guilt, which apparently justified the entire Afghanistan war (where an oil pipeline is now being built, which the Taliban had refused to allow).

[Zer0X1999]

Some of the evidence does give viable proof the the tape could be fake. and I can't say the Bush administration doesn't have it in them to fake such a tape, as they've lied quite a few times these past few years, especially over this war. But faking the brutal death of an American would be a new low.
*2 cents dropped*

[mst3k_stud]

anyone have the link? i'm not being an asshole...just want to see for myself.

[The Successful Dropout]

anyone have the link? i'm not being an asshole...just want to see for myself.

the link to the video? pm me and ill tell you....i would just tell you on here, but people got pissed the last time it was on here

[Scrubking]

I heard on the news the other day that teachers were showing elementary school kids the ENTIRE video.

I assume they were trying to show the kids how bad a president Dubya is. :puke:

[JimmieMac]

I wonder if practicing for air raids would still go over in today's society?