Is Flipping Wrong?

[rocket6682]

Before i am reamed for my grammer or any other multiple things let me put before you CAGs a issue. I have been reading the forums and no matter what flipping always gets brought up into it and thier is a gaint debate on the morals of it. i propose that we keep any and all of these arguments out of the forums and respond to them here. I think of flipping as the buying of a game with only the intent to trade it in and trading it in to the same place it was bought. Do i think this wrong? NO, although not morrally sound thier is nothing wrong with it. People who believe it is wrong go upon very little evidence to prove that it is. After all what is wrong with just buying a game and trading it in, everyone has done that, some to even the same place. The period it is owned for is what decides if it flipping or not. Now lets have a good clean argument and let the tearing apart of this statement and people begin.

[bowmanarmy]

I think it is wrong just because you are hurting the stores that provide you with good deals year round. People who rack up credit on this are just bitches.

[bil4ltool]

Of course!!! Not only is it wrong, it's illegal.

[rocket6682]

what law makes it illegal??

[Scorch]

Of course!!! Not only is it wrong, it's illegal.

Uhhh.. it's illegal to buy something then sell it? What is this, Russia? If you're referring to the Wal-Mart scam, then yeah, that's illegal

I don't think there's anything wrong at all with buying something to turn around and trade it in. I've done it. But I always make sure to play within the law (I don't do the Wal-Mart scam), and I always leave at least one of whatever i'm getting for someone else. I don't hoard.

[bil4ltool]

Yes Scorch I was referring to Wal Mart scam, which is flipping. Buying it for $13 then trading it in for $50 in store credit.

[Kastides]

Flipping saves me money... And i love anything that makes/saves me money. It's not illegal you moron. It might violate some of the stores trade policies technically, but I always side with the PEOPLE over Corporate scum.

[rocket6682]

You can not just post something with out Proof to back up your statement bil4ltool

[CocheseUGA]

Depends. I bought .hack3 earlier this year from CC and PSP-Sp2 from KB, both for $10. Traded them to Rhino for a brand new game last week. Is this flipping? Technically, yes. But I don't consider that wrong.

I don't even neccessarily look down upon getting a deal for a game and trading it right away to somewhere else for more credit.

What I do look down upon severely is the Wal-mart scam, or buying 10 of a title to trade in and denying others the chance to play it.

[Scorch]

Yes Scorch I was referring to Wal Mart scam, which is flipping. Buying it for $13 then trading it in for $50 in store credit.

Yes, but that's only part of the definition. I could buy a game for 50 cents at a yard sale and trade it in at a GameCrazy for $5 in store credit and it'd still be flipping. Now if I bought a game that EB had on sale for $9.99 then return it to Wal-Mart for $50 in store credit, yeah, that's illegal.

Depends. I bought .hack3 earlier this year from CC and PSP-Sp2 from KB, both for $10. Traded them to Rhino for a brand new game last week. Is this flipping? Technically, yes. But I don't consider that wrong.

Now see? That's legal and something I do ^^. I picked up Punisher for $10 and traded it in a 2 for 1 when Rhino was still giving $10+ in credit for it.

[CocheseUGA]

You can not just post something with out Proof to back up your statement bil4ltool


What he is referring to (scamming Wal-mart) is widely considered to be fraud.

[bil4ltool]

The flipping I was referring to was the Wal Mart scam, I have nothing against buying something and selling it somewhere else for a large profit, but the Wal Mart scam is most definitely illegal. Someone has posted proof before, but I don't know where to dig it up.

[RAMSTORIA]

people wonder why stores give so little in credit, flipping is directly related to it. when gamestop and eb have to take in 1000 copies of ford truck racing, you can damn well bet they arent going to sell all of those, they have to make it up in other places. so when you trade in call of duty 2 for 20 bucks, you know why now.

[KaneRobot]

Flipping saves me money... And i love anything that makes/saves me money. It's not illegal you moron. It might violate some of the stores trade policies technically, but I always side with the PEOPLE over Corporate scum.

No, you side with yourself.

And that's fine if that's your thing, but don't pretend to pull this anti-authority anti-corporate down-with-the-establishment bullshit. You just want cheap video games, that's hardly "siding with the people." And that's what I want too - I just have no illusions about it.

Stop feeing so self-important. Everyone here is just a nerd with a hardon for cheap video games.

[sarausagi]

Wal-Mart Scam? I wouldn't call it scam: other "normal" customers scam Wal-Mart a lot more than "flippers" do. Check the customer service office everyday at any Wal-Mart, you'll see ladies bringing back used bras, used underwear, used shoes, also, lots of bed/bath items or even make up. No one calls them out, even though they're not only 'scamming" Wal-Mart but creating lots of health hazards, especially with the lingerie and make up.

Considering the price that Wal-Mart pays for game through their vendors, the price they sell for worldwide, and what they do with returns, they're making as much as a profit as you are. If you buy a X-Men Legends II for $29.99, return it for $49.99, what really happens?

A. Wal-Mart shelves it, sells it, and makes profit without even having bought that unit.

B. Wal-Mart returns it as defective, receives a full credit for what they refunded you.

C. Wal-Mart sells it overseas or across the border, for a higher price: video games in Canada and Mexico are -much- more expensive, especially new releases.

D. Wal-Mart lost a little, but you did use the credit to buy from them, broke even, and maybe you bought some merchandise out of your own pocket while you were there.

The Blockbuster scam though? It's purely legal. They offer trade in credit for games. If a little boy or girl bought a copy of Finny The Fish or whatever those games used for the scam were, and then by accident her uncle got her one, and she took it in to Blockbuster with her mom, and got $50 credit, it's not a scam: it's perfectly legal. What's the difference between an individual legally obtaining 20 copies of the said game, then going to Blockbuster and doing the same? Trade limit per day? If he honors that limit, each day he can do it again and again.

Unless you stole the games, and then flipped them to obtain something legally, it's not wrong. Theft is wrong, working around the system while still working WITH THE SYSTEM isn't.

These scams are pointless though, low price guarantee at Fry's, now that's a way to make some money. In the past month, I've price matched them on their OWN prices, gotten refunds based on competitor advertisment, qualified for mail in rebates out of time of purchase, etc. Look at the Fry's ad every time it comes out: Sunday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday. Look at the other ads. Track every item you purchase for 30 days. I promise you, you'll be breaking even, getting 50% off, or getting it free after enough work.

[sarausagi]

And I don't do it for video games, the less I can spend on video games, the more I can spend on fashion = D

clothesareagirlsbestfriend.

I like video games too though.

If you like being the CA part of CAG though, getting clothes discounted is incredible fun. $25 off $40 coupons at Fashion Bug, 75% off Torrid, and Dillard's clearances. Four pairs of jeans for the price of one, yayies! And Ross is like a black friday sale for discontinued designer clothing every day of the week.

[Apossum]

it's just taking advantage of stores based what services they provide the customer. there is nothing wrong about legally buying something, then legally trading it in elsewhere for more money.

Stores take advantage of customers this way by having us trade stuff in for less than we paid, there's no reason why we can't turn the tables. Free market, biatches. Companies can change their prices and policies if they want, but if they don't, you're free to use it in any way you want. Some cry that it's not fair to the stores, well, fuck them-- if flipping games for more money isn't "fair" then buying wholesale and selling it for more money isn't "fair." I'm not about to submit to the system when I can legally thrive off of it.

that said, i do it occasionally, but most of the time it isn't worth it, since I don't have a gamerush or rhino or anything that gives good credit around me.

[rocket6682]

I am surprised by the response so far because whenever this debate it brought up you see alot more people speaking out right against flipping but the fact is thier is nothing wrong with it and i lay down a personal chellenge for some one to prove other wise

[CocheseUGA]

A. Wal-Mart shelves it, sells it, and makes profit without even having bought that unit.

B. Wal-Mart returns it as defective, receives a full credit for what they refunded you.



That's not correct. If it was unopened (which it has to be to get a refund) then they aren't returning it. They are selling it.

You may think they are making a profit, but they aren't. There isn't much margin in the video game industry. At best, they break even on that one transaction, perhaps make a buck. Really all they are doing is removing one game from inventory and replacing it with another. I call it a scam because it's unethical. May be not illegal, but sure as hell unethical.

[thagoat]

THE WALMART SCAM IS ILLEGAL IN CERTAIN STATES. But buying something for cheap and then selling it for a profit is definitely legal and legitimate. what do you think day traders do on the stock market? they buy stock for cheap in the morning and sell em when they go up in the afternoon. they make a living by "flipping". the same with big stores. they buy it cheap and sell to you for a profit. thats capitalism.

[sarausagi]

That's not correct. If it was unopened (which it has to be to get a refund) then they aren't returning it. They are selling it.

You may think they are making a profit, but they aren't. There isn't much margin in the video game industry. At best, they break even on that one transaction, perhaps make a buck. Really all they are doing is removing one game from inventory and replacing it with another. I call it a scam because it's unethical. May be not illegal, but sure as hell unethical.

What if you don't buy a game though? I buy a new release DVD, a small electronic, and some Gatorade, Dr.Pepper, and Orange Juice, a bottle of shampoo, a bottle of conditioner, etc. My friend's father runs a restaurant, he buys 12 packs of Dr.Pepper products for $1.05 each, gallons of orange juice [not concentrate] cost him $1.50. There's a dollar store nearby that buys thousands of units of Pantene Pro V, can sell them for a DOLLAR each, and make a huge profit. You think Wal-Mart doesn't know what they're doing? EB Games/Gamestop wouldn't be around if the profit on new video games wasn't good, they certainly couldn't afford to slash new copies and sell them as used if that wasn't true.

[The Truth 34]

Considering the price that Wal-Mart pays for game through their vendors, the price they sell for worldwide, and what they do with returns, they're making as much as a profit as you are. If you buy a X-Men Legends II for $29.99, return it for $49.99, what really happens?

A. Wal-Mart shelves it, sells it, and makes profit without even having bought that unit.

Where is this profit you speak of? They give you $50 for it and sell it for $50 (if they are lucky). Plus they have to take up shelf space and have a person put it back there. Definitely no profit there.

[zionoverfire]

Where is this profit you speak of? They give you $50 for it and sell it for $50 (if they are lucky). Plus they have to take up shelf space and have a person put it back there. Definitely no profit there.

And don't forget if the next buyer uses a credit card they lose a few extra percent.

[markholladay]

With this Walmart scam, do they give you cash, or a store gift certificate/card, because that would change things.

[gaelan]

blah blah blah...look if you have to lie dufing the process it is wrong.

[CocheseUGA]

You think Wal-Mart doesn't know what they're doing? EB Games/Gamestop wouldn't be around if the profit on new video games wasn't good, they certainly couldn't afford to slash new copies and sell them as used if that wasn't true.

How much are plane tickets to fantasyland these days?

EB/GS make their profit on used games. When I worked at Blockbuster, new games only had a profit of 10%, tops. Used games and DVDs, however, represented anywhere from 75%-88% gross profit.

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I return a game, it's for another game. Not haircare products or Little Debbies.

I've never seen them slash new games and sell them as used, either. They might very well do it, but if you are talking about the display copies, those still sell as new.

[cag1000]

only cool people flip

[lordopus99]

Where is this profit you speak of? They give you $50 for it and sell it for $50 (if they are lucky). Plus they have to take up shelf space and have a person put it back there. Definitely no profit there.

the profit comes from when the person uses that credit. Not everyone returns a game to buy a game. Walmart sells a lot more than games. Also by getting that customer in the store to use the credit, they will most likely also pick up other things and spend more money than the original 50 dollar credit. To the person asking if they give cash, they don't. It's all credit.

Flipping in itself is all unethical, not illegal. Returning to Walmart also is unethical, not illegal. With both, you work the system within the system; thus not breaking any laws. Also with both, a name is attach to all those transactions. With flipping, they could have a database with what has been traded in and deny you credit. I have heard in the past people having their blockbuster accounts froze. With Walmart, they ask for your license and allow 3 returns within a 6 month period (if I remember correctly). Walmart put that in place to stop from people making a living off returning and still allow customers to return something without a receipt.

[radjago]

only cool people flip out
Like ninjas (http://www.realultimatepower.net/)

[MadFlava]

I have no problem with people flipping. I don't do it because it's too much of a hassle. I actually will trade in games if I happen to buy/own two copies of the game and finish it. If I make money off of it because I got it from CAG then that's great but I don't mean to do it intentionally.

[argyle]

Depends. I bought .hack3 earlier this year from CC and PSP-Sp2 from KB, both for $10. Traded them to Rhino for a brand new game last week. Is this flipping? Technically, yes. But I don't consider that wrong.

I don't even neccessarily look down upon getting a deal for a game and trading it right away to somewhere else for more credit.


I do this all the time, and honestly don't even remotely see how someone could see anything wrong with this. Where is it wrong? That I traded a game I didn't actually play? Or that I traded a game that I didn't lose money on?

I reguarly buy games specifically to trade into my Rhino. And you know what I've noticed?

A) The employees do the same thing. I've overheard discussions where they were talking about upcoming CC sales as ways to get qualifying games cheap.

B) Every other customer that's traded something in while I was in the store has NOT taken advantage of their deals. Using your head and taking advantage of promotions is not a wide-spread activity. Usually, I see these people giving away their games - trading a qualifying game by itself, or trading in a bunch of non-qualifying games for little or nothing.

If these trade-in deals were losing the store money, they would stop them. The fact is, they get 2 games in brand-new condition that they sell for $25 (at least)/ea.

[freestyledust77]

Definition of Fraud

All multifarious means which human ingenuity can devise, and which are resorted to by one individual to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth. It includes all surprises, tricks, cunning or dissembling, and any unfair way which another is cheated.

Source: Black’s Law Dictionary, 5th ed., by Henry Campbell Black, West Publishing Co., St. Paul, Minnesota, 1979

if you flip w/ in the guide lines (ie you buy for cheaper than lets say a trade in price, than it is legit, you are not breaking anything above, but if you buy cheap and tell walmart (kmart, target, whoever) that you lost the reciept, yada, yada, yada then by law dictionary (and in an extreme circumstance) you could be charged w/ fraud!

[Drensch]

I don't think there's anything wrong at all with buying something to turn around and trade it in. I've done it. But I always make sure to play within the law (I don't do the Wal-Mart scam), and I always leave at least one of whatever i'm getting for someone else. I don't hoard.

Can't say it any better.

[poe]

Definition of Fraud

All multifarious means which human ingenuity can devise, and which are resorted to by one individual to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth. It includes all surprises, tricks, cunning or dissembling, and any unfair way which another is cheated.

Source: Black’s Law Dictionary, 5th ed., by Henry Campbell Black, West Publishing Co., St. Paul, Minnesota, 1979

if you flip w/ in the guide lines (ie you buy for cheaper than lets say a trade in price, than it is legit, you are not breaking anything above, but if you buy cheap and tell walmart (kmart, target, whoever) that you lost the reciept, yada, yada, yada then by law dictionary (and in an extreme circumstance) you could be charged w/ fraud!


And for anybody who needs it spelled out more, Refund Fraud, defined:
http://crimeprevention.rutgers.edu/crime/refundfraud/refundfraud.htm

Anybody who wants to keep arguing, make sure you've read qualifier 3 on that list...

[paz9x]

Like ninjas (http://www.realultimatepower.net/)
thats fucking great, i choked when the music started, thanks holmes

[alonzomourning23]

I don't find it unethical, unless its done to small family or community stores since any loss or slow moving stock has a greater effect. When you get to a store like walmart then I don't care in the least, especially with all the sexism, discrimination suits etc. filed against them. It's like punching someone after they punched 5 other people in the room, even if they didn't hit you its not like they don't deserve it.

Now, other than stores like walmart, I would say it is unethical to buy it from them and knowingly return it to them for a higher price (doesn't count if you didn't realize this until you recieved the refund, or if you bought it and genuinely lost the receipt). I would also say its unethical to return it to a store that you didn't buy it from for profit, knowing they will sell it for less than they gave you in credit (such as christmas lights 10 minutes before closing on christmas eve), again though places like walmart excluded.

[dino3333]

what is this walmart scam that everyone is talking about?

[vherub]

If people want to run arbitrage on squeezing profits out of inconsistencies in market prices, there are easier and more lucrative avenues than new and used video games. If people want to take advantadge of a store's return policy, the trouble is that store may then change their policy so that it negatively affects everyone. You're shitting where you and the rest of us eat.

So maybe it does not violate your own personal code of conduct and maybe the store has taken no measures to forbid it, but you would not treat a friend that way. As I see it, it is a dick move to this community, especially a situation like the circuit city sale. Are we gamers or profiteers? I'd rather somebody get a good game for cheap, play the hell out of that game and maybe take a chance on a similar game next time (see: BG&E), then some clown scoop up that same $5 game because they know they can trade it in at store x or ebay it for some chumpchange.

Is it black and white? Not hardly, but flipping is purely selfish, and you have to realize no one else, especially other gamers, stands to benefit from your actions.

[AngellicLulu]

The problem that arises with flipping is hoarding. People buy up all the cheap games just to trade them in somewhere else that will price them more expensive. What about the people who wanted one of those cheap games on the cheap? You just screwed them out of it because you hoarded to flip. You're taking games from people who may actually want to play them instead of using them for a profit. That's the problem I see with flipping.

[Quillion]

I am surprised by the response so far because whenever this debate it brought up you see alot more people speaking out right against flipping but the fact is thier is nothing wrong with it and i lay down a personal chellenge for some one to prove other wise

I lay down a personal challenge to you to prove to me that murder is wrong.

You can't take a case of subjective morality and apply yours to every argument against it.

[JSweeney]

You can not just post something with out Proof to back up your statement bil4ltool

Here you go.

Title 17-A Maine Criminal code, Chapter 15: Theft.
§354. Theft by deception

1. A person is guilty of theft if:


A. The person obtains or exercises control over property of another as a result of deception and with intent to deprive the other person of the property. Violation of this paragraph is a Class E crime; or [2001, c. 383, §34 (new); §156 (aff).]


In this case, you are misrepresenting your purchase of the game, with the sole intent of depriving the Walmart Corporation of property (cash or product).

[depascal22]

I think the key is when you tell the customer service agent at Wal-Mart that you lost the receipt. Flipping isn't wrong as long as you do it withing the letter of the law. Buying 10 dollar games at Best Buy or whereever and flipping them on EBay for $20 isn't wrong, it's what makes America great. Buying a $10 game at Best Buy and lying to to Wal-Mart to get 50 bucks for the game is fraud. This situation is pretty black and white even though people would like to get morals involved in this.


It's a great time to be a cheap ass gamer.

[AlanSaysYo]

The problem that arises with flipping is hoarding. People buy up all the cheap games just to trade them in somewhere else that will price them more expensive. What about the people who wanted one of those cheap games on the cheap? You just screwed them out of it because you hoarded to flip. You're taking games from people who may actually want to play them instead of using them for a profit. That's the problem I see with flipping.

That's capitalism, and there's nothing wrong with it.

Do you see diamond miners stop mining early because there might be other people who want to find diamonds without paying a markup? Do you know of any instance where someone found an oil well but only took enough for their own use?

Perhaps we should rename the site Communist Ass Gamer and send "community enforcers" to buy up all the cheap games everywhere. Then we can all stand in really long lines for each game in hopes that they're not all gone by the time we get to the front of the line. Is that fair enough?

[unbroken]

Anyone who sees flipping as ilegal or not moral is a COMPLETE idiot. It's called taking advtage of the system, walmart has plenty of other shit to worry about than little Joey buying a game and returing it for more money, they are a multi million dollar company, they have nothing to lose. I have flipped over 2000$ store credit at blockbuster and even the manager thinks it's a good idea. Get over it and stop trying to justify flipping as being ilegal. After all, this is CHEAP ass gamers, were all here to save money and NOT help walmart or blockbuster make more.

[JSweeney]

That's capitalism, and there's nothing wrong with it.

Do you see diamond miners stop mining early because there might be other people who want to find diamonds without paying a markup? Do you know of any instance where someone found an oil well but only took enough for their own use?

Perhaps we should rename the site Communist Ass Gamer and send "community enforcers" to buy up all the cheap games everywhere. Then we can all stand in really long lines for each game in hopes that they're not all gone by the time we get to the front of the line. Is that fair enough?

You see, Alan, there are these people who actually have this thing called empathy.
They have a deep caring for the feelings and well being of others, and thus find actions that are purely self-centered to be distasteful.

By arguing in subjective terms, this entire argument becomes cyclical.

Comparing diamond miners to hoarders this situation is not apt.

1. If diamond miners stopped sooner, thier product would be more rare, and thus capable of demanding a higher price.

2. For profit ventures don't have thier geological studies for them gratis.

Information is just as valuable a commodity as a product.
When people are being kind and sharing thier information, which they could
have used for only their own profit, they don't like hearing some greedy person
talking about how they hoarded all of the things on sale, and then flipped them.
With no meeting of the minds, and the people providing deals reaping nothing
but ingratitude from selfish people trying to finance their entire habit off of the
knowldege of others, you'll be certain to see some discontent.

[thagoat]

Here you go.

Title 17-A Maine Criminal code, Chapter 15: Theft.
§354. Theft by deception

1. A person is guilty of theft if:


A. The person obtains or exercises control over property of another as a result of deception and with intent to deprive the other person of the property. Violation of this paragraph is a Class E crime; or [2001, c. 383, §34 (new); §156 (aff).]


In this case, you are misrepresenting your purchase of the game, with the sole intent of depriving the Walmart Corporation of property (cash or product).

thats an interesting interpretation. i still dont think it qualifies as theft.

[JSweeney]

Anyone who sees flipping as ilegal or not moral is a COMPLETE idiot. It's called taking advtage of the system, walmart has plenty of other shit to worry about than little Joey buying a game and returing it for more money, they are a multi million dollar company, they have nothing to lose. I have flipped over 2000$ store credit at blockbuster and even the manager thinks it's a good idea. Get over it and stop trying to justify flipping as being ilegal. After all, this is CHEAP ass gamers, were all here to save money and NOT help walmart or blockbuster make more.

Anyone thinks scamming walmart is legal is ignorant of the state laws in many jurisdictions. Maine, for instance.

Cheapassgamer does not equal selfish ass bastard. You can go to fatwallet if that kind of thing is your bag.

[judyjudyjudy]

I think there are arguments going for two separate flipping things: returns & trade ins. The trade-in stuff... I can see how that's up for debate. But I don't see how return frauds are ever justified. The whole point of returns is to get your money back from the store they amount they already took from you... you should be at the same point money-wise before your purchase and after your return. Returns are not meant for profiting.

And I really don't see how it's relevant whether store is Walmart, Best Buy, or a mom and pop shop. Just because you don't believe in a company's corporate structure and policies doesn't make it right to break the law in their store. It's not okay to steal or commit fraud in ANY store. I'm not going to pocket candies from Walmart because they can afford it or because they pay less than minimal wage or whatever.

[mykevermin]

And I really don't see how it's relevant whether store is Walmart, Best Buy, or a mom and pop shop. Just because you don't believe in a company's corporate structure and policies doesn't make it right to break the law in their store. It's not okay to steal or commit fraud in ANY store. I'm not going to pocket candies from Walmart because they can afford it or because they pay less than minimal wage or whatever.

Man, I fuckin' *hate* to defend WM here, but you're totally right. I'd rather just not fucking shop there. Flipping a copy of Primal there ain't gonna bring down the corporate behemoth, it's just going to put me ahead one game.

That having been said, there is plenty of room for debate on flipping in the sense of "buy low, sell high" in regards to trading in titles. I don't do it myself, but I don't really have the patience or fortitude (or time) for all that flipping bullshit. I'll just wait until a title I'm looking for drops in price (like $10 Chaos Theory!); in the end, though, it's a personal matter. I wouldn't mind one good goddamned bit, however, if stores like EB and GS kept individualized accounts that prohibited trading in more than one or two copies of the same game in a 6 month period. Can that be circumvented? Certainly. But if it makes it a bigger pain in the ass and a deterrent to asshole haorders, then power to the people. The stores ought to consider it; after all, who the fuck's gonna buy Black and Bruised, except for the whisky drunk and surly?

OTOH, the illegality of the Wal-Mart scam has been repeated over and over. SOME OF YOU MAY DO IT, BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT LEGAL. Please keep that in mind when defending it. If you think it's legal, try this: try buying Game A for a low low price at store A; then, try returning that game at WM for full store credit WITHOUT LYING ABOUT THE GAME'S ORIGINS. If you can get away with it without lying, congratulations! You're not breaking the law. If you insinuate, knowingly, that the game CAME FROM WAL-MART ORIGINALLY, then you are a liar and thus guilty of fraud.

[Jeoff]

I don't care when people buy things to resell, it just makes me furious when they CLEAR OUT A PLACE COMPLETELY (see TRU or CC sales or BB penny guides).

If you want to fuck Wal-Mart or buy 2 copies of a game (one to keep one to sell) that's fine with me, but please leave something on the shelf for the rest of us to buy please.

[shrike4242]

Always nice to see a thread where one side is making intelligent arguments and the other side is saying "fuck this company" and "fuck that company".

I know which side I'm behind. ;) Please, continue with the lopsided arguments :applause:

[javeryh]

I've thought about this issue for a while and, morals aside, I'm not sure if there is anything illegal about the "Wal-mart scam" especially if you don't lie to anyone in the process (and even that's iffy). Their own return policy accept returns from items not bought at the store (or at least that was the policy in 2002 after discussing it at length with a manager there). Not just on items not bought there that they carry but on ALL ITEMS whether they carry it or not (they find a comparable product that they do carry for pricing - also, the item has to be within reason - for example it has to be something they would ordinarily stock). This policy implicitly states that they do not care where the item comes from - they will give store credit for it. They know full well before they enter into the return "transaction" that the item could have come from anywhere and as long as you own it legally, there's nothing wrong with "selling" it back to them for whatever they deem as a fair price.

I'm not saying this is an absolute certainty but it is another way of looking at it. A strong case can be made for fraud, but I would argue that the "lie" of where the item was originally purchased is immaterial to the transaction based on their store policy. Wal-mart is too big to care about this. If enough people did it, you can bet they would change their policy though...

[Mr.Answer]

And I really don't see how it's relevant whether store is Walmart, Best Buy, or a mom and pop shop. Just because you don't believe in a company's corporate structure and policies doesn't make it right to break the law in their store. It's not okay to steal or commit fraud in ANY store. I'm not going to pocket candies from Walmart because they can afford it or because they pay less than minimal wage or whatever.


:applause:

[shrike4242]

I've thought about this issue for a while and, morals aside, I'm not sure if there is anything illegal about the "Wal-mart scam" especially if you don't lie to anyone in the process (and even that's iffy). Their own return policy accept returns from items not bought at the store (or at least that was the policy in 2002 after discussing it at length with a manager there). Not just on items not bought there that they carry but on ALL ITEMS whether they carry it or not (they find a comparable product that they do carry for pricing - also, the item has to be within reason - for example it has to be something they would ordinarily stock). This policy implicitly states that they do not care where the item comes from - they will give store credit for it. They know full well before they enter into the return "transaction" that the item could have come from anywhere and as long as you own it legally, there's nothing wrong with "selling" it back to them for whatever they deem as a fair price.

I'm not saying this is an absolute certainty but it is another way of looking at it. A strong case can be made for fraud, but I would argue that the "lie" of where the item was originally purchased is immaterial to the transaction based on their store policy. Wal-mart is too big to care about this. If enough people did it, you can bet they would change their policy though...
Leave it to the lawyer to make it clearer. :D

Though, if this happens enough times, they will change their policy, and they're starting to do so, since I remember reading that they're working to have only 3 "no-receipt" refunds happen in a six month period. Should be 0, IMHO, though there's enough dumb people out there (myself included) that forget receipts that should be allowed to slide once. And only once.

[javeryh]

Leave it to the lawyer to make it clearer. :D

Though, if this happens enough times, they will change their policy, and they're starting to do so, since I remember reading that they're working to have only 3 "no-receipt" refunds happen in a six month period. Should be 0, IMHO, though there's enough dumb people out there (myself included) that forget receipts that should be allowed to slide once. And only once.

yeah, I certainly wouldn't want to have to argue the case in front of a judge or anything because it certainly sounds like shady behavior. It's just that until a court has come down on the issue I don't think anyone can say as a 100% certainty that it is illegal. Until that time, there's always an argument to be made...

About their store policy, they probably view the amount of people who take advantage of the system as low compared to the amount of unhappy customers and additional lost business that would occur if they were to ban returns without a receipt outright. In a lot of towns in the middle of the country, Wal-Mart is the place to shop for everything...

[JSweeney]

I've thought about this issue for a while and, morals aside, I'm not sure if there is anything illegal about the "Wal-mart scam" especially if you don't lie to anyone in the process (and even that's iffy). Their own return policy accept returns from items not bought at the store (or at least that was the policy in 2002 after discussing it at length with a manager there). Not just on items not bought there that they carry but on ALL ITEMS whether they carry it or not (they find a comparable product that they do carry for pricing - also, the item has to be within reason - for example it has to be something they would ordinarily stock). This policy implicitly states that they do not care where the item comes from - they will give store credit for it. They know full well before they enter into the return "transaction" that the item could have come from anywhere and as long as you own it legally, there's nothing wrong with "selling" it back to them for whatever they deem as a fair price.

I'm not saying this is an absolute certainty but it is another way of looking at it. A strong case can be made for fraud, but I would argue that the "lie" of where the item was originally purchased is immaterial to the transaction based on their store policy. Wal-mart is too big to care about this. If enough people did it, you can bet they would change their policy though...

I think that would be an effective argument, javeryh.
However, I think intent would come into play in such an examination.
Though, I have a feeling a store would reject returns from a person long before they'd even chance it on the legal system, given the murkiness of the topic.

[Skelah]

What should be illegal is how you get treated for 'fliping' you get treated like you stole something .

Concidering how much they sell for these games ARE THEY EVEN LOSING ANY PROFIT????

I tell you what if they sold the game like 5 dollars more than what they give you used price then id say its wrong but if they wanna have crazy prices that are unfair and WRONG.

Then they deserve people legaly working there trade in deals..

Blockbuster should apologize to anyone who was banned for 'flipping' .


You got fucking adults that work at blockbuster giving 14 year old kids a hard time for 'flipping' stand back and see it for what it is an adult picking on a child cause the child wants to change there games in THAT ARE WORTH MORE THAN WHAT THERE GETTING ATLEAST IN BLOCKBUSTERS PRICING.

They give you like a dollar for some of these games they sell for 8 dollars yet were crooks???????

WHAT ABOUT SPORTS GAMES? HOW CAN YOU SELL A GAME FOR 50 BUCKS THEN TURN AROUND AND ONLY BUY IT BACK FOR LIKE 4 DOLLARS LESS THAN A YEAR???

HOW ABOUT EXCLUDING ALLS PORT TITLES FROM THERE TRADE IN DEALS IF YOUR GONNA DO THAT EXCLUDE SELLING THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE ASSHOLES YOUR RIPPING OFF LIL KIDS THAT WANNA PICK UP THAT LATEST HOCKEY OR BASEBALL GAME.

[mykevermin]

What should be illegal is how you get treated for 'fliping' you get treated like you stole something .

Concidering how much they sell for these games ARE THEY EVEN LOSING ANY PROFIT????

I tell you what if they sold the game like 5 dollars more than what they give you used price then id say its wrong but if they wanna have crazy prices that are unfair and WRONG.

Then they deserve people legaly working there trade in deals..

Blockbuster should apologize to anyone who was banned for 'flipping' .


You got fucking adults that work at blockbuster giving 14 year old kids a hard time for 'flipping' stand back and see it for what it is an adult picking on a child cause the child wants to change there games in THAT ARE WORTH MORE THAN WHAT THERE GETTING ATLEAST IN BLOCKBUSTERS PRICING.

They give you like a dollar for some of these games they sell for 8 dollars yet were crooks???????

WHAT ABOUT SPORTS GAMES? HOW CAN YOU SELL A GAME FOR 50 BUCKS THEN TURN AROUND AND ONLY BUY IT BACK FOR LIKE 4 DOLLARS LESS THAN A YEAR???

HOW ABOUT EXCLUDING ALLS PORT TITLES FROM THERE TRADE IN DEALS IF YOUR GONNA DO THAT EXCLUDE SELLING THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE ASSHOLES YOUR RIPPING OFF LIL KIDS THAT WANNA PICK UP THAT LATEST HOCKEY OR BASEBALL GAME.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!?!?!

[javeryh]

I think that would be an effective argument, javeryh.
However, I think intent would come into play in such an examination.
Though, I have a feeling a store would reject returns from a person long before they'd even chance it on the legal system, given the murkiness of the topic.

I think at the end of the day it would be very difficult to convince a court that this type of activity would be legal. I don't know if intent would come into play though because there are tons of crimes you can commit where your intent is irrelevant - felony-murder being the biggest (for example you light your house on fire to collect the insurance not knowing that someone was inside - no intent to kill but you are getting charged and convicted of murder nonetheless).

I do agree that in our situation intent makes all the difference in the world though - it's hard to charge grandma with a crime for forgetting where she bought Halo not knowing everyone already owns it and returning it to Walmart just because they will take a return without a receipt. It's quite different from you or I trying to make money off "the system" even though the result is the same as when grandma does it. This is why I think intent should matter but it doesn't - at the end of the day it's almost impossible to prove. I really don't know the answer...

[briansraregames]

I hate to revisit this thread, but i just got a copy of wrestlemania XXI at the TRU sale that I could flip at walmart for an easy $45. My thoughts are this, both myself and walmart are profiting by this.

For example:

Walmart.................Me

....$0 .................. -$10................. After purchasing the WWE game from TRU
..-$45 .................+$35 .................After flipping the game to walmart
....$0 ...................STUFF............... After me using my walmart gift card
..+$45................ STUFF................ Walmart sells the WWE game to someone else

So, in the end, walmart gets $45, $30 of which is probably profit, and I have stuff that I want or need. So, it seems to be that walmart should encourage flipping, not discourage against it.

[JSweeney]

I hate to revisit this thread, but i just got a copy of wrestlemania XXI at the TRU sale that I could flip at walmart for an east $45. My thoughts are this, both myself and walmart are profiting by this.

For example:

Walmart Me

$0 -$10 After purchasing the WWE game from TRU
-$45 +$35 After flipping the game to walmart
$0 STUFF After me using my walmart gift card
+$45 STUFF Walmart sells the WWE game to someone else

So, in the end, walmart gets $45, $30 of which is probably profit, and I have stuff that I want or need. So, it seems to be that walmart should encourage flipping, not discourage against it.

Stop trying to bullshit yourself.
If you're going to try to rip them off, at least have the stones to admit it.
The margin on videogames is nowhere near as huge as people assume it is... especially with the huge, huge profit centers that Walmart stocks that are almost pure profit.

[briansraregames]

I disagree, since i'm forced to buy other higher margin products at their store, whatever they get for that video game is ALL profit. They make the same either way. I compare it to what I do at my store, I acept all national retail store gift cards as cash on my merchandise. My profits are so high that I'll take a $100 gift card instead of cash, that's fine by me, i can use it or sell it. I still make money, it's just in a different medium.

[mykevermin]

i'm forced to buy other higher margin products at their store
Shut the fuck up. You lie, and you do so badly.

Look, I like to kick cripples in their fucking ankles. I don't try to make myself feel better about it by asking other people about it ("Well, it doesn't hurt since their nervous system doesn't work"; "They weren't going to a dance competition anyway"; "I wanted to help them sit down"). You're probably going to be a twat about it and go flip the game, so shut the hell up and go be a twat already; don't come here looking for vindication. Go to church, blow a priest, and you'll find salvation there.

[3QGojo]

I'll buy games cheap at places and trade them in for more credit elsewhere because it really adds up after awhile so much so that I'll gain usually enough credit for a BRAND NEW $50 game for free once every 1-2months.

[3QGojo]

Oh you guys are talking about buying a game and taking it to Wally World without a receipt? Isn't that fraud?

[briansraregames]

Look, I like to kick cripples in their fucking ankles. I don't try to make myself feel better about it by asking other people about it ("Well, it doesn't hurt since their nervous system doesn't work"; "They weren't going to a dance competition anyway"; "I wanted to help them sit down"). You're probably going to be a twat about it and go flip the game, so shut the hell up and go be a twat already; don't come here looking for vindication. Go to church, blow a priest, and you'll find salvation there.

So you're comparing the most powerful retail store in the world to a "cripple?" WTF are you smoking/drinking/snorting/shooting? You must be a stockholder. Oh, and by the way, I don't seek vindication, I've been doing this for years and have no problem with it, besides I'm a little too old for most priests anyway.

[TimPV3]

I can't agree it's right, but sticking it to WalMart is alright in my book.

My only complaint is when you get a $10 game from TRU to return it/trade it in for profit, you fuck the little guy over who wanted it, and force him to get it for a higher price. Sure, it's his fault for not getting there before you but it if you trade it in it adds to the EB/Gamestop/eBay machine.

[briansraregames]

I can't agree it's right, but sticking it to WalMart is alright in my book.

My only complaint is when you get a $10 game from TRU to return it/trade it in for profit, you fuck the little guy over who wanted it, and force him to get it for a higher price.

Good point.

[anonymouswhoami]

I hate to revisit this thread, but i just got a copy of wrestlemania XXI at the TRU sale that I could flip at walmart for an easy $45. My thoughts are this, both myself and walmart are profiting by this.

For example:

Walmart.................Me

....$0 .................. -$10................. After purchasing the WWE game from TRU
..-$45 .................+$35 .................After flipping the game to walmart
....$0 ...................STUFF............... After me using my walmart gift card
..+$45................ STUFF................ Walmart sells the WWE game to someone else

So, in the end, walmart gets $45, $30 of which is probably profit, and I have stuff that I want or need. So, it seems to be that walmart should encourage flipping, not discourage against it.

I think you're grossly overestimating profit margins. $30 profit from a $45 sale? I don't think so. At best, Walmart gets pennies on the dollar. Walmart gets rich on the volume of products it sells, not large profit margins. And how did Walmart go from -$45 to $0 after you used your giftcard? To do that, you would have had to buy enough items to generate $45 in profit for the store, which means you would have had to purchase at least several hundred dollars worth of items, which isn't likely. Plus, you're also assuming that Wal-mart can ship the unsold copy of Wrestlmania XX1 (the one it would have sold had you not "returned" a second copy) back to the distributor for the same price it paid. That doesn't happen either. If it did, we would never have clearance sales, like the $5 CC or recent TRU sales. If stores could ship poor selling items back to the distributors for full price, why would they lose their "shirts" by clearancing them for $5-10?

[briansraregames]

I think you grossly overestimating profit margins. $30 profit from a $45 sale? I don't think so. At best, Walmart gets pennies on the dollar. Walmart gets rich on the volume of products it sells, not large profit margins. And how did Walmart go from -$45 to $0 after you used your giftcard? To do that, you would have had to buy enough items to generate $45 in profit for the store, which means you would have had to purchase at least several hundred dollars worth of items, which isn't likely.

I'm no economist, that is painfully obvious. Since the card is same as cash in the store, substitute cash for the gift card and it makes sense to me. I'm not really accounting for cost in my calculations i guess. So you're probably right. They're probably making $15 or so on the deal and not $45, depending on how much they have into the items that I'd get with my card, which is the same that they'd be getting anyway. I guess that this all rests on their ability to resell the game that I bring in for the same amount that they give me. If that decreases, then i can see how they'd lose out.

[terribledeli]

My favorite part about this entire thread is that the OP asks a question, perhaps seeking debate? No, they already voice their opinion in the title, obviously not wanting debate or discussion.

Hilarious.

But seriously, do whatever makes you happy. If scamming a huge company gives you a hard-on...go for it. If trying to change someone's opinion of an act you view as immoral does the same, go for it.

Have fun.

Oh yeah, +1.

[poe]

I hate to revisit this thread, but i just got a copy of wrestlemania XXI at the TRU sale that I could flip at walmart for an easy $45. My thoughts are this, both myself and walmart are profiting by this.

For example:

Walmart.................Me

....$0 .................. -$10................. After purchasing the WWE game from TRU
..-$45 .................+$35 .................After flipping the game to walmart
..-$45 ...................STUFF............... After me using my walmart gift card
....$0................ STUFF................ Walmart sells the WWE game to someone else



I fixed your math to account for the fact that Walmart is out the value of whatever you bought with that gift card (possibly less depending on product margins, but we'll say you bought another video game, for argument's sake). Also, the $0 total assumes Walmart can move a WWE game at $45 that was just clearanced for $10 somewhere else.

[MasterSun1]

We should let Phoenix Wright handle this.

Seriously though, flipping (buying low, trading in high) may seem immoral (personal opinion), but it's no illegal.

Buying elsewhere and returning to Wal-Mart, most people are saying it's a scam, but if it is, why is the policy there and why do you ask to see your driver's license?

[urzishra14]

And I don't do it for video games, the less I can spend on video games, the more I can spend on fashion = D

clothesareagirlsbestfriend.

I like video games too though.

If you like being the CA part of CAG though, getting clothes discounted is incredible fun. $25 off $40 coupons at Fashion Bug, 75% off Torrid, and Dillard's clearances. Four pairs of jeans for the price of one, yayies! And Ross is like a black friday sale for discontinued designer clothing every day of the week.

i'm a guy and i love ross.. cheap NBA/NFL jerseys.. and definately great to look through to find some cool stuff in from time to time..

[mykevermin]

So you're comparing the most powerful retail store in the world to a "cripple?" WTF are you smoking/drinking/snorting/shooting? You must be a stockholder. Oh, and by the way, I don't seek vindication, I've been doing this for years and have no problem with it, besides I'm a little too old for most priests anyway.
No, I hate Wal-Mart as much as any good, American bleeding heart liberal should. That's why I don't shop there (lucky I'm not *forced* like you are, :rofl: ). I don't flip there, either. Just because I don't like a place, that doesn't mean I want to change my scruples about flipping. I don't like it at any store. Including Wal-Mart.

As far as "cripples," I recommend several years of reading comprehension for you, even if you're too old for a priest. You evidently missed my very lucid point that, if you're dumb enough to do something widely condemned on this site, and something whose legality is easily contended, don't act like you're saving the fucking planet from the corporate behemoth that is Wal-Mart because you have the stones to return a $10 for a brand-new, $50 game. Just admit you're being a selfish fucking pig and be done with it. The point is this: drop your pretenses, and just admit you're a piece of selfish shit. That's all, boy-o. Can't be that hard to consider, can it?

[rajchakrabarti]

on another note...... while people say its illegeal .... so whats the actual penalty for getting caught ?

[poe]

on another note...... while people say its illegeal .... so whats the actual penalty for getting caught ?

I think it varies by state. Where I live, it would depend on how much it's done, but unless you form a group to clear out dollar stores and return product at higher cost retailers, plus flipping clearance merch as non-clearance elsewhere, you'd probably only be looking at a misdemeanor; I don't see how you'd do enough volume for anything more serious. Restitution and maybe community service, jail time is HIGHLY unlikely unless you didn't make restitution.

Anybody know specific precedents on this?

[jennie25]

I think it is wrong just because you are hurting the stores that provide you with good deals year round. People who rack up credit on this are just bitches.

but what if it isn't from the store that brought you the deal and you were just using an ad from another store to pick up the game hella cheap then return it no reciept to stick it to the store for full credit? is that bad? HELL NO it's called hustling! People do this all the time, drugs, girls, guns, games, whatever. I mean seriously, what is the difference in me picking up 3 copies of psychonaunts from tru, keeping one and flipping the other two at gamerush for 24 a piece when gamestop/ebgames were only offereing 9 each? Is there something immoral in that? nope, if you think there is, then you need to look into your soul and kill whever is telling you that and get on with you life!

[Sulmona]

the only time I have ever heard of anyone get in trouble for return fraud is when they print out UPC codes for cheap items, put em on more expensive items, buy the expensive items at the cheap price, and then try to return the expensive items without a receipt. The problem with this is that inventory will appear as though there is a theft (and rightfully so). As I recall, last year a group of people got caught for this after scamming Wal-mart hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[badboysean]

wrongggggg forum

[mykevermin]

HELL NO it's called hustling! People do this all the time, drugs, girls, guns, games, whatever.

For reals, my homeslice. Me? I just sell tha rock to mah holmez, and then I go to da 'Mart and buy da three-sitty. And a case of docta' thunda. Word life.

[CYRiX]

Wal-Mart Scam? I wouldn't call it scam: other "normal" customers scam Wal-Mart a lot more than "flippers" do. Check the customer service office everyday at any Wal-Mart, you'll see ladies bringing back used bras, used underwear, used shoes, also, lots of bed/bath items or even make up. No one calls them out, even though they're not only 'scamming" Wal-Mart but creating lots of health hazards, especially with the lingerie and make up.

Considering the price that Wal-Mart pays for game through their vendors, the price they sell for worldwide, and what they do with returns, they're making as much as a profit as you are. If you buy a X-Men Legends II for $29.99, return it for $49.99, what really happens?

A. Wal-Mart shelves it, sells it, and makes profit without even having bought that unit.

B. Wal-Mart returns it as defective, receives a full credit for what they refunded you.

C. Wal-Mart sells it overseas or across the border, for a higher price: video games in Canada and Mexico are -much- more expensive, especially new releases.

D. Wal-Mart lost a little, but you did use the credit to buy from them, broke even, and maybe you bought some merchandise out of your own pocket while you were there.

The Blockbuster scam though? It's purely legal. They offer trade in credit for games. If a little boy or girl bought a copy of Finny The Fish or whatever those games used for the scam were, and then by accident her uncle got her one, and she took it in to Blockbuster with her mom, and got $50 credit, it's not a scam: it's perfectly legal. What's the difference between an individual legally obtaining 20 copies of the said game, then going to Blockbuster and doing the same? Trade limit per day? If he honors that limit, each day he can do it again and again.

Unless you stole the games, and then flipped them to obtain something legally, it's not wrong. Theft is wrong, working around the system while still working WITH THE SYSTEM isn't.

These scams are pointless though, low price guarantee at Fry's, now that's a way to make some money. In the past month, I've price matched them on their OWN prices, gotten refunds based on competitor advertisment, qualified for mail in rebates out of time of purchase, etc. Look at the Fry's ad every time it comes out: Sunday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday. Look at the other ads. Track every item you purchase for 30 days. I promise you, you'll be breaking even, getting 50% off, or getting it free after enough work.
Everyone read this.

[mr ryles]

I was going to "flip" with this current $9.99 TRU sale. I could have bought some RE4's and turned them into wal-mart for either $49.99 or exchanged it straight across for a different game.

[alonzomourning23]

What do you guys think of this? I bought an anime DVD from FYE during the clearance. I changed my mind but had lost the receipt. I went back about a week later to return it for the $30 I paid (was originally 90) and the sale had ended. I had assumed they'd do what most stores do and go with the lowest recent price. Instead they do the current price, and gave me $90 in credit. I didn't really feel too comfortable with it, especially since it was the same store I bought it in, but it wasn't really intentional either even if I could have technically corrected them, though they didn't even tell me until they handed me the credit slip.

Another time was when during the earlier toys r us sale (the one everyone was taking games from to go to FYE for credit to buy psp's and stuff). I did that with a few stores. One I walked into and the guy was half listening to me when I said I wanted to trade these in. I handed him 4 sealed games and he starts going through them and says "you're going to get $120 credit" or something in that range. I said sure and he gave me the slip. He did a return instead of a trade in.

[CocheseUGA]

Everyone read this.


Wrong is still wrong.

[adamsappel]

What's the collective opinion on gift games? If Aunt Sarah didn't include a gift receipt with the copy of that game you absolutely don't want, should you trade it in for $6 at EB, or $50 at Wal-Mart? Does saying, "This was a gift" absolve the return? Does saying, "I'd like to exchange this without receipt for credit" do the same? Does saying, "This was a gift" and it's a lie doom you to a certain circle of Hell?

[judyjudyjudy]

What's the collective opinion on gift games? If Aunt Sarah didn't include a gift receipt with the copy of that game you absolutely don't want, should you trade it in for $6 at EB, or $50 at Wal-Mart? Does saying, "This was a gift" absolve the return? Does saying, "I'd like to exchange this without receipt for credit" do the same? Does saying, "This was a gift" and it's a lie doom you to a certain circle of Hell?Unless you know for a fact she got it from Walmart, don't return it there. If you don't want it, trade it in or trade/sell it online on your own.

[mykevermin]

What's the collective opinion on gift games? If Aunt Sarah didn't include a gift receipt with the copy of that game you absolutely don't want, should you trade it in for $6 at EB, or $50 at Wal-Mart? Does saying, "This was a gift" absolve the return? Does saying, "I'd like to exchange this without receipt for credit" do the same? Does saying, "This was a gift" and it's a lie doom you to a certain circle of Hell?
Ask Aunt Sarah for the gift receipt. If that doesn't work, find out what store it was purchased in. I disagree that you should feel obligated to trade it in, but I feel that you should take a minute or two to figure out where the game was purchased so you can exchange it properly.

This may seem contradictory to my vehement anti-flipping stance, but I feel this way: if you receive a gift, and try to exchange it, that's qualitatively different from flipping. I would consider flipping to not only involve fraudulently returning items to a store without a receipt, but *also* (and this is the crucial part that, since you didn't do, I would argue exonerates you) purchase titles, typically in bulk, at a clearance/reduced rate for the sole purpose of generating profit. That doesn't sound like you.

[Broccoli Storm]

With the TRU deal recently, I've looked into both Walmart and TRU's return policy pretty extensively. I'll focus on Walmart's right here:

First off, I went and looked around the store, especially by the returns/exchange counter in my store, and nowhere does it say anything about the item having to come from Walmart. On the website, it says returns without a receipt FOR ITEMS BOUGHT ON WALMART.COM can be returned for a store credit, but in the store it doesn't specify. Also, on the receipt for TRU and Walmart, it makes no mention of this issue.

Secondly, I asked a manager at a Walmart a bunch of questions. I made it clear what was going on and how people (including myself) were doing this. He said that they accept any item that they carry in the store with no receipt for the price they're currently selling it at. I explicitally asked: "Is it items you carry or items purchased from Walmart" and he said that it was items they carry. He also told me (which I'm sure many of you know) that once you make three returns without a receipt your account is supposedly red-flagged and you cannot return anymore. I haven't heard of this actually happening with anyone (my mom and I frequently return things to Walmart simply because we can't find the receipt and we have no idea where they came from).

Also, Walmart has never once asked me "where did you buy this?" or "did you buy this at a Walmart?" If people are so insistent on this being illegal (which I'm honestly not sure if it is or not), then why does Walmart not simply put up signs that state their policy clearly or require employees to ask where the item was purchased?

Another thing many people have brought up is the intention of the return. Sure, flippers are doing it to make a profit on a giftcard. But legally, what separates flippers from people who are returning items that didn't come from Walmart? What distinguishes someone who purchased the game to do this from someone who received a gift without a receipt or is not sure where something came from? If it didn't come from Walmart, they're all breaking this law (if it exists).

The answer is simple. Walmart should simply stop taking unopened games, DVDs, etc. They're pretty much the only large chain that I know of that is still doing this (Target's caught on in recent years, Best Buy/CC are very YMMV, and all videogame stores have NEVER allowed it). And just because people do it here, doesn't mean there aren't people out there doing worse things. I'm sure people scam Walmart and other stores much worse than a few teenagers buying 3 or 4 games and selling them back to Walmart so they can get a different game for a cheaper price. Oh, and if I haven't made it obvious how I feel, flipping is fine with me, as long as you're not a hoarder and buy 20 copies of the same game so no one else can get what they want. I've never operated like that and never will.

[fatherofcaitlyn]

I would consider flipping to not only involve fraudulently returning items to a store without a receipt, but *also* (and this is the crucial part that, since you didn't do, I would argue exonerates you) purchase titles, typically in bulk, at a clearance/reduced rate for the sole purpose of generating profit. That doesn't sound like you.

No, it sounds like me. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Of course, I'd prefer to create business relationships with companies to relieve them of their overstock. Sadly, most companies would rather let merchandise rot rather than unload them at cost or for a small profit.

I wish business types took a few math courses while getting their "degrees". Maybe then they would figure out that having racks upon racks of stagnant stock doesn't generate profit.

Hitting up stores for less than $20 of gross profit gets very tedious (and, given the direction of gas prices, unprofitable).

Oh, to contribute to the argument ...

If you don't have to lie to complete a flip, you've done nothing wrong.

Does it piss people off? Certainly, but there's nothing wrong with pissing people off either.

There's a difference between flipping and hoarding, but that's another post.

[alonzomourning23]

Ask Aunt Sarah for the gift receipt. If that doesn't work, find out what store it was purchased in. I disagree that you should feel obligated to trade it in, but I feel that you should take a minute or two to figure out where the game was purchased so you can exchange it properly.


Why should you risk hurting someones feelings to do that though? You already said you don't think its equal to the flipping being discussed (since they didn't buy it to make money), so why is it so important that you'd risk that? A lot of people don't exactly like being told you don't like their gift.

[judyjudyjudy]

Why should you risk hurting someones feelings to do that though? You already said you don't think its equal to the flipping being discussed (since they didn't buy it to make money), so why is it so important that you'd risk that? A lot of people don't exactly like being told you don't like their gift.If I was the gift-giver, I'd be more concerned about the person being happy with their gift. Unless it was something that involved a lot of personal effort (like a sweater you knitted), my feelings wouldn't be hurt.

[JSweeney]

Pertainant sections in bold:
THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931

750.218 False pretenses with intent to defraud; violation; penalty; enhanced sentence based on prior convictions; “false pretense” defined.



Sec. 218.

(1) A person who, with the intent to defraud or cheat makes or uses a false pretense to do 1 or more of the following is guilty of a crime punishable as provided in this section:

(a) Cause a person to grant, convey, assign, demise, lease, or mortgage land or an interest in land.

(b) Obtain a person's signature on a forged written instrument.

(c) Obtain from a person any money or personal property or the use of any instrument, facility, article, or other valuable thing or service.

(d) By means of a false weight or measure obtain a larger amount or quantity of property than was bargained for.

(e) By means of a false weight or measure sell or dispose of a smaller amount or quantity of property than was bargained for.

(2) If the land, interest in land, money, personal property, use of the instrument, facility, article, or valuable thing, service, larger amount obtained, or smaller amount sold or disposed of has a value of less than $200.00, the person is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 93 days or a fine of not more than $500.00 or 3 times the value, whichever is greater, or both imprisonment and a fine.

(3) If any of the following apply, the person is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 1 year or a fine of not more than $2,000.00 or 3 times the value, whichever is greater, or both imprisonment and a fine:

(a) The land, interest in land, money, personal property, use of the instrument, facility, article, or valuable thing, service, larger amount obtained, or smaller amount sold or disposed of has a value of $200.00 or more but less than $1,000.00.

(b) The person violates subsection (2) and has 1 or more prior convictions for committing or attempting to commit an offense under this section or a local ordinance substantially corresponding to this section.

(4) If any of the following apply, the person is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years or a fine of not more than $10,000.00 or 3 times the value, whichever is greater, or both imprisonment and a fine:

(a) The land, interest in land, money, personal property, use of the instrument, facility, article, or valuable thing, service, larger amount obtained, or smaller amount sold or disposed of has a value of $1,000.00 or more but less than $20,000.00.

(b) The person violates subsection (3)(a) and has 1 or more prior convictions for committing or attempting to commit an offense under this section. For purposes of this subdivision, however, a prior conviction does not include a conviction for a violation or attempted violation of subsection (2) or (3)(b).

(5) If any of the following apply, the person is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 10 years or a fine of not more than $15,000.00 or 3 times the value, whichever is greater, or both imprisonment and a fine:

(a) The land, interest in land, money, personal property, use of the instrument, facility, article, or valuable thing, service, larger amount obtained, or smaller amount sold or disposed of has a value of $20,000.00 or more.

(b) The person violates subsection (4)(a) and has 2 or more prior convictions for committing or attempting to commit an offense under this section. For purposes of this subdivision, however, a prior conviction does not include a conviction for a violation or attempted violation of subsection (2) or (3)(b).

(6) The values of land, interest in land, money, personal property, use of the instrument, facility, article, or valuable thing, service, larger amount obtained, or smaller amount sold or disposed of in separate incidents pursuant to a scheme or course of conduct within any 12-month period may be aggregated to determine the total value involved in the violation of this section.

(7) If the prosecuting attorney intends to seek an enhanced sentence based upon the defendant having 1 or more prior convictions, the prosecuting attorney shall include on the complaint and information a statement listing the prior conviction or convictions. The existence of the defendant's prior conviction or convictions shall be determined by the court, without a jury, at sentencing or at a separate hearing for that purpose before sentencing. The existence of a prior conviction may be established by any evidence relevant for that purpose, including, but not limited to, 1 or more of the following:

(a) A copy of the judgment of conviction.

(b) A transcript of a prior trial, plea-taking, or sentencing.

(c) Information contained in a presentence report.

(d) The defendant's statement.

(8) If the sentence for a conviction under this section is enhanced by 1 or more prior convictions, those prior convictions shall not be used to further enhance the sentence for the conviction pursuant to section 10, 11, or 12 of chapter IX of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 769.10, 769.11, and 769.12.

(9) As used in this section, “false pretense” includes, but is not limited to, a false or fraudulent representation, writing, communication, statement, or message, communicated by any means to another person, that the maker of the representation, writing, communication, statement, or message knows is false or fraudulent. The false pretense may be a representation regarding a past or existing fact or circumstance or a representation regarding the intention to perform a future event or to have a future event performed.


History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931 ;-- CL 1948, 750.218 ;-- Am. 1957, Act 69, Eff. Sept. 27, 1957 ;-- Am. 1998, Act 312, Eff. Jan. 1, 1999 ;-- Am. 2004, Act 154, Eff. Sept. 1, 2004



If at any time you state "I bought this at a Walmart and want to return it", answer yes to a clerk's query to the same effect, or sign any paper alleging your initial purchase from Walmart, you are making a statement that is on it's face falacious and thus establishing a false pretense for a past or existing fact.

Given the price of games and the value one recieves in return, if one conducts such acts more than 3-4 times in a twelve month period it would be rather easy to hit the threshold required for a misdemenor charge, and per section 6, using these values in agregate is not an issue.

[mykevermin]

If you don't have to lie to complete a flip, you've done nothing wrong.
You're absolutely right, and I've always claimed that the legality of flipping is strictly contingent upon whether or not you knowingly lie (and, of course, if that can be proven).

Now, you are one of the few people who gladly admits to hoarding and flipping. I'm not sure if that makes me want to key your car, or rather applaud you for admitting to being the bitch that other people seem to be afraid to admit to (if they engage in the same behavior as you). I am curious what part of KY you live in; of course, if it's anywhere near me, and I ever miss out on a deal, I will not hesitate to blame you. It's not rational, but it is funny.

Perhaps for another thread, but a serious question laced in my typical ad hominem: if you're such a goddamned economist/math whiz, why are you flipping games and raiding deals to sell on ebay, instead of running another kind of business? You claim to want to offer a successful business model to successful businesses, but you aren't engaging in that yourself. Why is that?

Why should you risk hurting someones feelings to do that though? You already said you don't think its equal to the flipping being discussed (since they didn't buy it to make money), so why is it so important that you'd risk that? A lot of people don't exactly like being told you don't like their gift.
As someone said, the gift giver should be more concerned that the recipient likes the gift, rather than gladly accepts whatever trivial morsel you were given. Now, if someone were to reject a homemade gift (beer in my case, knitted goods and/or jewelry in the wife's), I'd be hurt (like the good ol' boys who put up a stone wall in the front of our house who told me my beer reminded them of budweiser they left in the woods for months on end in the summer, only to suddenly discover it, re-refrigerate it and drink it; THAT hurt). OTOH, if my father-in-law didn't like the shirt we bought him, or my brother didn't like the books I got him, then I'd gladly help them exchange it. If you're bothered that the people you bought a gift for don't like the precise thing you got them, you're buying gifts for the wrong reasons.

[willardhaven]

If you go into Walmart and say "I'd like to return this, I don't have a receipt" and they take it back, you're really not doing anything wrong.

I haven't done this, because I'd still feel bad, but there's nothing wrong with it. If it hurts the store, they will stop taking things back with no receipt.

Why is everybody complaining so much?

BTW I never hoard or flip or anything, I just buy games to play, not really one for trading.

[botticus]

You know, just because Walmart allows it to occur doesn't mean it's not wrong. Simply put, I'm guessing they have determined that the money lost by people doing three bad-faith returns per year is balanced or exceeded by the profit they gain by offering customer-oriented services like that to gain customer loyalty. Legal or not, you're taking advantage of a policy in an illegitimate way. I consider that wrong. They are just able to shrug it off.

[adamsappel]

I was just being hypothetical. There is no Aunt Sarah, not in my family, anyway. I just wondered if that situation is perceived differently. I think flipping them is more of a pain in the ass than unethical.

[mcgavin27]

I see nothing wrong with the purchasing a game with the intent to trade it in shortly after. Recently, I wanted to do the Rhino 2 for 1 deal and was lacking a game. So, I strolled over to TRU and picked up a copy of Geist (There was 4 left when I left) and then went over to rhino and traded it in. I see nothing wrong with that.

[javeryh]

I see nothing wrong with the purchasing a game with the intent to trade it in shortly after. Recently, I wanted to do the Rhino 2 for 1 deal and was lacking a game. So, I strolled over to TRU and picked up a copy of Geist (There was 4 left when I left) and then went over to rhino and traded it in. I see nothing wrong with that.

There isn't (unless you count cheating someone out of the game that actually wanted to play it but that's just people whining that they didn't get there first). The flipping that isn't tolerated is returning to Walmart or any other store without a receipt and lying that it was bought there to get store credit.

[Broccoli Storm]

There isn't (unless you count cheating someone out of the game that actually wanted to play it but that's just people whining that they didn't get there first). The flipping that isn't tolerated is returning to Walmart or any other store without a receipt and lying that it was bought there to get store credit.

Where is the lying part though if they never ask you "Did you get this at Walmart?"

[njchris]

Where is the lying part though if they never ask you "Did you get this at Walmart?" That's just rationalization. You know you are deceiving them and you know you didn't buy it there. Funny how people rationalize with silly lines like that.

[javeryh]

Where is the lying part though if they never ask you "Did you get this at Walmart?"

It's implicit in your actions. Last I checked, most stores aren't into the business of buying random shit lying around your house.

[alonzomourning23]

As someone said, the gift giver should be more concerned that the recipient likes the gift, rather than gladly accepts whatever trivial morsel you were given. Now, if someone were to reject a homemade gift (beer in my case, knitted goods and/or jewelry in the wife's), I'd be hurt (like the good ol' boys who put up a stone wall in the front of our house who told me my beer reminded them of budweiser they left in the woods for months on end in the summer, only to suddenly discover it, re-refrigerate it and drink it; THAT hurt). OTOH, if my father-in-law didn't like the shirt we bought him, or my brother didn't like the books I got him, then I'd gladly help them exchange it. If you're bothered that the people you bought a gift for don't like the precise thing you got them, you're buying gifts for the wrong reasons.

I'm not bothered by it personally, as I feel that I went through the effort to get the gift and my concern for the person is shown by that effort, though a particularly personal gift would be different. The thing is one of my family members has a habit of telling people exactly what she thinks. A lot of times someone will be so happy with the gift they're giving her and think its so great, only to hear her complain about how she doesn't need/want/like it. One person in particular that happens to a lot.

There's also the fact that since I was a little kid I was always told not to say anything if I didn't like a gift (as this happened with the vast majority of non parent gifts), and I'd never tell someone that I didn't like their gift as I'd feel like a jerk. A few times I've been given the same gift by two people and one (or both) realized that, I even feel bad with that. I'd prefer that they are happy to see that I like it and, if I don't like it, I can almost always just return it to a store and get something else and they'll never know.

[mykevermin]

The thing is one of my family members has a habit of telling people exactly what she thinks. A lot of times someone will be so happy with the gift they're giving her and think its so great, only to hear her complain about how she doesn't need/want/like it. One person in particular that happens to a lot.
I think there is a difference between politely asking about a gift, making a 'lil white lie' about having one already, or something else. Your example of your relative sounds more like someone needs to learn manners and tact more than anything else (on a side note: whenever I hear about people who "tell people exactly what they think," that's usually code for "loudmouth bitches who complain openly about everything, but are scared to death to ever say anything remotely complimentary or kind". Just out of curiosity, is your relative one of those people?).

Now, to be sure, if someone conveys to me that they are *very* proud of a gift that I'm not fond of, I'd probably refrain from telling them that. OTOH, I'm not a return guy unless I have an extra already. I would imagine, however, that I would be hard-pressed to be frank with a gift-giver if they seemed very pleased with what they got.

[alonzomourning23]

I think there is a difference between politely asking about a gift, making a 'lil white lie' about having one already, or something else. Your example of your relative sounds more like someone needs to learn manners and tact more than anything else (on a side note: whenever I hear about people who "tell people exactly what they think," that's usually code for "loudmouth bitches who complain openly about everything, but are scared to death to ever say anything remotely complimentary or kind". Just out of curiosity, is your relative one of those people?).

Now, to be sure, if someone conveys to me that they are *very* proud of a gift that I'm not fond of, I'd probably refrain from telling them that. OTOH, I'm not a return guy unless I have an extra already. I would imagine, however, that I would be hard-pressed to be frank with a gift-giver if they seemed very pleased with what they got.

My family is small enough that no one is really buying gifts for a large amount of people, so there probably is a little more thought in the gifts, at least with most of them.

Though she really does say exactly what she thinks. She's not always yelling or always complaining, she will forgive anything as long as you apologize, and she will say how great something is if she thinks its great. It's just there's no filter between what she thinks in her head and what she says, especially when it comes to gifts. The worst time was when she got a lobstergram (a live lobster personally delivered to her door). The giver was absolutely thrilled with it, but she thought it was a horrible gift and let everyone know it. Another time she got a car seat warmer and she thought it was a great gift, and let everyone know it. My mother often tries to warn her when she thinks she's about to recieve a bad gift and it usually works, though it didn't with the lobster one. The fact that she's the oldest person in the family (85, second oldest is about 55) is probably why people are more tolerant of it.

[mykevermin]

Lobstergrams make me think of Sean Hannity, so it'd churn my stomach too. ;)

[fatherofcaitlyn]

I was going to post this yesterday, but I ran out of time.

You're absolutely right, and I've always claimed that the legality of flipping is strictly contingent upon whether or not you knowingly lie (and, of course, if that can be proven).
Now, you are one of the few people who gladly admits to hoarding and flipping. I'm not sure if that makes me want to key your car, or rather applaud you for admitting to being the bitch that other people seem to be afraid to admit to (if they engage in the same behavior as you). I am curious what part of KY you live in; of course, if it's anywhere near me, and I ever miss out on a deal, I will not hesitate to blame you. It's not rational, but it is funny.

Perhaps for another thread, but a serious question laced in my typical ad hominem: if you're such a goddamned economist/math whiz, why are you flipping games and raiding deals to sell on ebay, instead of running another kind of business? You claim to want to offer a successful business model to successful businesses, but you aren't engaging in that yourself. Why is that?



I gladly admit to flipping. Hoarding is another story.

The prime examples of hoarding I've read about here involve going to a store during a clearance and buying every copy of every game. I tend to buy a copy of every game I can make a profit from. It's the difference between brushhogging a field and pruning a bonzai plant. If a store has 1 copy of 5 different titles and all five titles have a profit margin, the store will have 0 games after I'm there. If a store has 5 copies of 100 different titles and 10 of the titles have a profit margin, the store will have 490 games after I'm there. Yes, I'll repeatedly hit a store for the same games after titles sell, but there can be days between purchases.

Also, I tend to hit sales AFTER the first day. It's a sporting chance thing. If a sale is REALLY that important to a CAG, he or she can grab whatever games are on sale.

On to the second half of your post:

In 2005, my business' gross sales grew from around $10K to just under $49K. That's over 400% growth. If I can continue that growth for another year, the business becomes a full time job. Another year after that, I'll need employees. Another year after that, I'll need supervisors.

My business is video games because I like video games. I like popping in a video game for a few minutes or hours. After I'm done, the profit I make is merely positive reenforcement.

Regarding my business model, it is very difficult to change a business mentality. Most businesses accept having inventory rot on their shelves. They are under some delusion that Black Friday will make it all better. It's why you'll see a N64 Madden sitting in Movie Gallery for $10 in 2005. It's why you'll see a copy of Bloodrayne 2 for $50 in Wal-Mart when it's part of CC's $10 clearance. It's why you'll see Xenosaga II in CC for $50 when TRU has it for $10 and in a B2G1F sale. Most companies like Wal-Mart, Best Buy or Circuit City have a video game section because other stores sell video games. They don't actually understand that video games will sell for $50 new for a month or two then drop in value.

EB/GS understand video games a little better, but the bigger stores' collective mentality/ignorance doesn't force their prices down by much. Of course, EB/GS let bargain value games rot for months too. Rather than sell a game on eBay in a bulk lot for $4 or $5, they'll let it rot in same vague hope that somebody stupid enough will stumble into their store and pick it up for $8 or less. Factor in a B2G1F sale with a 10% off card and they're selling value games through a B & M just to be selling value games through a B & M.

Obviously, this raises an obvious question: How would I run a B & M? Well, that goes well beyond the scope of this particular thread. If you want to read my unorthodox ideas and lame excuses for not undertaking them out of curiousity or a desire to have something humorous to read for years to come, we can trade PMs or start a new thread.

[JSweeney]

I was going to post this yesterday, but I ran out of time.



I gladly admit to flipping. Hoarding is another story.

The prime examples of hoarding I've read about here involve going to a store during a clearance and buying every copy of every game. I tend to buy a copy of every game I can make a profit from. It's the difference between brushhogging a field and pruning a bonzai plant. If a store has 1 copy of 5 different titles and all five titles have a profit margin, the store will have 0 games after I'm there. If a store has 5 copies of 100 different titles and 10 of the titles have a profit margin, the store will have 490 games after I'm there. Yes, I'll repeatedly hit a store for the same games after titles sell, but there can be days between purchases.

Also, I tend to hit sales AFTER the first day. It's a sporting chance thing. If a sale is REALLY that important to a CAG, he or she can grab whatever games are on sale.

On to the second half of your post:

In 2005, my business' gross sales grew from around $10K to just under $49K. That's over 400% growth. If I can continue that growth for another year, the business becomes a full time job. Another year after that, I'll need employees. Another year after that, I'll need supervisors.

My business is video games because I like video games. I like popping in a video game for a few minutes or hours. After I'm done, the profit I make is merely positive reenforcement.

Regarding my business model, it is very difficult to change a business mentality. Most businesses accept having inventory rot on their shelves. They are under some delusion that Black Friday will make it all better. It's why you'll see a N64 Madden sitting in Movie Gallery for $10 in 2005. It's why you'll see a copy of Bloodrayne 2 for $50 in Wal-Mart when it's part of CC's $10 clearance. It's why you'll see Xenosaga II in CC for $50 when TRU has it for $10 and in a B2G1F sale. Most companies like Wal-Mart, Best Buy or Circuit City have a video game section because other stores sell video games. They don't actually understand that video games will sell for $50 new for a month or two then drop in value.

EB/GS understand video games a little better, but the bigger stores' collective mentality/ignorance doesn't force their prices down by much. Of course, EB/GS let bargain value games rot for months too. Rather than sell a game on eBay in a bulk lot for $4 or $5, they'll let it rot in same vague hope that somebody stupid enough will stumble into their store and pick it up for $8 or less. Factor in a B2G1F sale with a 10% off card and they're selling value games through a B & M just to be selling value games through a B & M.

Obviously, this raises an obvious question: How would I run a B & M? Well, that goes well beyond the scope of this particular thread. If you want to read my unorthodox ideas and lame excuses for not undertaking them out of curiousity or a desire to have something humorous to read for years to come, we can trade PMs or start a new thread.

I'd like clarification on which sort of flipping you are talking about here...
exploiting favorable, yet legal, trade in deals with companies such as Blockbuster, Rhino, et al, or the wholesale defrauding of a number of businesses.

If it's the former, I can see where you're coming from. I don't agree with you, but I can see where it's coming from.

Otherwise, if you're moving that volume of product through fraudulent returns through the system, you're not a businessman, you're a thief.

By the way, are you filling your profits with the IRS? I'm pretty sure they'd like to hear of your profits of around 50K, as well as want their cut.

[willardhaven]

If he has no other job there is no way he would be able to hide 50k without an audit, no need to pry.

[fatherofcaitlyn]

I'd like clarification on which sort of flipping you are talking about here...
exploiting favorable, yet legal, trade in deals with companies such as Blockbuster, Rhino, et al, or the wholesale defrauding of a number of businesses.

If it's the former, I can see where you're coming from. I don't agree with you, but I can see where it's coming from.

Otherwise, if you're moving that volume of product through fraudulent returns through the system, you're not a businessman, you're a thief.

By the way, are you filling your profits with the IRS? I'm pretty sure they'd like to hear of your profits of around 50K, as well as want their cut.

I said just under $49K in gross SALES. If I had made just under $49K in gross PROFITS, I certainly wouldn't have a 40 hour a week job someplace else.

A typical flip for me would be buying Batman Begins on Black Friday via a pricematch at Meijer's for $10 and dumping it on eBay for $20 before shipping.

Regarding profits, I keep 2 ledgers (go ahead and roll your eyes before reading the rest of the paragraph) in the form of 2 spreadsheets. Ledger #1 consists each individual item I sell with its final price after shipping, the out of pocket cost of the item, the shipping cost of the item, the Paypal fee of the item, the listing fee of the item, the final value fee of the item and the sum of all columns to determine a profit or loss on that specific item. Ledger #2 consists of bulk sales and bulk expenses. Since I don't carry an inventory, the numbers match.

Regarding the IRS, both ledgers go to my bookkeeper (my stepmother). We'll adjust the expenses to include such things as a percentage of my mortgage and to exclude such things as unproveable mileage. If any profit remains (or, more accurately, can't be legally hidden), the federal, state and city will get their cuts and I'll keep my business license for another year.

[JSweeney]

I said just under $49K in gross SALES. If I had made just under $49K in gross PROFITS, I certainly wouldn't have a 40 hour a week job someplace else.

A typical flip for me would be buying Batman Begins on Black Friday via a pricematch at Meijer's for $10 and dumping it on eBay for $20 before shipping.

Regarding profits, I keep 2 ledgers (go ahead and roll your eyes before reading the rest of the paragraph) in the form of 2 spreadsheets. Ledger #1 consists each individual item I sell with its final price after shipping, the out of pocket cost of the item, the shipping cost of the item, the Paypal fee of the item, the listing fee of the item, the final value fee of the item and the sum of all columns to determine a profit or loss on that specific item. Ledger #2 consists of bulk sales and bulk expenses. Since I don't carry an inventory, the numbers match.

Regarding the IRS, both ledgers go to my bookkeeper (my stepmother). We'll adjust the expenses to include such things as a percentage of my mortgage and to exclude such things as unproveable mileage. If any profit remains (or, more accurately, can't be legally hidden), the federal, state and city will get their cuts and I'll keep my business license for another year.

After your clarifications, I see no issue... I don't think any reasonable person could.
You are just a savvy businessman who has built a home business around his hobby. There's nothing morally nor legally wrong with that, even if you were to go on the days of sales and clean a place out. That you actually don't do such things, and are actually cognisant of the feelings of others in your practices (rarely clearing a shelf, leaving product for others), I can't say that I'm anything but impressed. You don't let pure profit alter your morality. That's commendable.

We really need to reclassify some of these terms. People flipping in the manner you suggest do not deserve to be lumped in with people conducting fraud.

[adidas]

Actually circuitcity walmart or bestbuy understand videogames more than gamestop and ebgames..You look at the anual reports gamestop and ebgames blockbuster all lost money. versus circuitcity bestbuy and walmart make money. i work at a circuitcity that is extremley busy. we sell close to 20 playstation 2s on a weekend day. circuit citys profit margins come on tvs and computers same with bestbuy. They want to drive traffic to the store so they have video games music and movies to get you to come into the store

see with video games the manfacuter is the one who looses and not the retailer. look at turok, nba jam did horrible and now acclaim is gone.
Look at army men and the other junk 3do did and now there gone.
these are companies that end up with alot of clerance and now there gone...
if you guys study business and work at a retail store youwould understand profit better.

[mykevermin]

To translate adidas' points:

EB and GS don't make money; CC does.
CC makes money off of tvs.
Video Games are low profit margin items.
Retailers make money off of games, not manufacturers.

I'll let others draw the various diagrams that point out contradictory statements.

[fatherofcaitlyn]

To translate adidas' points:

EB and GS don't make money; CC does.
CC makes money off of tvs.
Video Games are low profit margin items.
Retailers make money off of games, not manufacturers.

I'll let others draw the various diagrams that point out contradictory statements.

Even though adidas had several invalid points, his underlying message is somewhat correct.

Large companies such as Wal-Mart diversified in many product lines do not make significant profits off of their video games. They run their video game departments as a loss leader.

Small companies such as Game Crazy or Gamestop specializing in video games do not make significant profits.

Of course, business people do stupid things like buy thousands of Forza bundles.

At Wal-Mart, your tire & lube express or photo center can take up the slack. At Gamestop, the value bins have to sell better or you have to hire a perky woman (or girl) with perkier tits to convince the customers to buy consoles near their sunsets bundled with an inferior game.

Business people also do stupid things like fully prepay for so many Xbox 360s while only requiring partial payments for preorders that entire fourth quarter budgets are tied up in backordered equipment.

My contention is that all stores have a certain amount of slop that can be rectified by forging business relationships with flippers like me or dumping stagnant stock on eBay.

[JSweeney]

Even though adidas had several invalid points, his underlying message is somewhat correct.

Large companies such as Wal-Mart diversified in many product lines do not make significant profits off of their video games. They run their video game departments as a loss leader.

Small companies such as Game Crazy or Gamestop specializing in video games do not make significant profits.

Of course, business people do stupid things like buy thousands of Forza bundles.

At Wal-Mart, your tire & lube express or photo center can take up the slack. At Gamestop, the value bins have to sell better or you have to hire a perky woman (or girl) with perkier tits to convince the customers to buy consoles near their sunsets bundled with an inferior game.

Business people also do stupid things like fully prepay for so many Xbox 360s while only requiring partial payments for preorders that entire fourth quarter budgets are tied up in backordered equipment.

My contention is that all stores have a certain amount of slop that can be rectified by forging business relationships with flippers like me or dumping stagnant stock on eBay.

Business love people who are flippers in your sense... you buy up what they consider to be "dead wieght", and not worth the shelfspace... thus the reduction of price.

You and others engaged in flipping (in that sense) are somewhat like a vulture feasting on carrion. Some people may find the act distasteful, but it's necessary to keep the system working well and keeping the ecosystem healthy. More free shelfspace -> more newer product -> larger profit/smaller losses.

People "flipping" in the fraudulent return sense are parasites... they are deleterious to the system, and their actions are soley self serving and harmful to the system. From time to time, they may kill a chain/store/host, which provides more carrion, but the system eventually becomes unbalanced and falls apart when too many parasites invade the same hosts.

[fatherofcaitlyn]

You and others engaged in flipping (in that sense) are somewhat like a vulture feasting on carrion. Some people may find the act distasteful, but it's necessary to keep the system working well and keeping the ecosystem healthy. More free shelfspace -> more newer product -> larger profit/smaller losses.


You are exactly right.

Unfortunately, many businesses run their video game divisions with the mentality that it's a loss leader or a crowd attractor. If a game hasn't sold on the shelf in a month, don't have five copies of it sitting behind it and don't have a pallet of it sitting in some warehouse two states over. There are always newer games that will sell for full retail price.

[kevzik]

bump for an excellent 6 page read. I still don't know where I stand tho. Both sides make good points. lets bring this argument back!

[Skelah]

In the end ive changed my mind a few times about flipping but I think its great.

Your using there service for what its meant to be used for.

They should work out there bugs and how else can they work out there bugs if u dont show them there are any? Your doing them a favor and your doing urself a favor.

A million dollar corperation has no buisness hassling a teen for using the service they advertise to the teen.

[kevzik]

At least some of these flippers are making a profit not involving drugs and kids. Id much rather have someone who wants to make some extra cash flip games.

[Villy]

Actually circuitcity walmart or bestbuy understand videogames more than gamestop and ebgames..You look at the anual reports gamestop and ebgames blockbuster all lost money. versus circuitcity bestbuy and walmart make money. i work at a circuitcity that is extremley busy. we sell close to 20 playstation 2s on a weekend day. circuit citys profit margins come on tvs and computers same with bestbuy. They want to drive traffic to the store so they have video games music and movies to get you to come into the store

see with video games the manfacuter is the one who looses and not the retailer. look at turok, nba jam did horrible and now acclaim is gone.
Look at army men and the other junk 3do did and now there gone.
these are companies that end up with alot of clerance and now there gone...
if you guys study business and work at a retail store youwould understand profit better.

Hmm, I just looked at GS's income sheet and Blockbusters. GS hasn't lost money on any year reported and it's stock is at an all time high and they posted a profit of 100 million dollars last year.

Blockbuster on the other hand has lost money all of the last 3 years, and a lot of it might I add., along the lines of 2.5 billion dollars over 3 years.

Circuit city lost 90 million 2 years ago but made money last year.

Best Buy is a machine making 900 million last year.

And Wal-Mart...I cringe, made 11 billion dollars last year. But, I doubt that was due to their knowledge of video game sales.

[BodyShot213]

If flipping is wrong, then i dont know whats right. This is how our economy works.

[io]

If flipping is wrong, then i dont know whats right. This is how our economy works.

If you read back through this thread, you see where the problem arises. It is in the definition of "flipping". To some people flipping means buying games cheap and then returning them without a receipt to places like Walmart for $50. That is wrong - legally and morally.

To others, flipping means buying games cheaply at one place and trading them in as used games at another place that offers more for them. That is clearly NOT wrong, morally, legally, ethically, or whatever. Though there are poeple on CAG that seem to think so. I think you mean this definition when you say it is how our economy works.

[chunk]

That's just rationalization. You know you are deceiving them and you know you didn't buy it there. Funny how people rationalize with silly lines like that.

There is no deception. Walmart purposely doesn't ask because they don't care.

Walmart is purposely accepting a calculated business risk by accepting items purchased at other stores and they are, in fact, profitting quite handsomely from their decision to do so.

They are aware that they are losing money to some customers by accepting items bought at other stores, but they don't care because on the whole they are making money by providing a hassle-free return experience to customers.

It's implicit in your actions. Last I checked, most stores aren't into the business of buying random shit lying around your house.

It is not implicit. Walmart is in the business of buying random shit lying around your house. They do it to attract customers to the store.

There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of Walmart's business model. It is no different than getting free after rebate items.

I wish they had Walmarts around here so I could take advantage of this policy.

[io]

I wish they had Walmarts around here so I could take advantage of this policy.

Wait, you live somewhere that doesn't have a Walmart?? Rhodesia, perhaps?

Funny that you say they provide a "hassle-free return experience". To me, the whole thought of driving to a Walmart, parking in their over-crowded parking lot, dealing with the hordes of people, waiting in the return line, etc, is the very definition of a "hassle".

[Skelah]

how can u even take advantage of walmarts policy i took something back there the other day on accident from another store they tryed to scan it and it woudlnt scan instantly they said 'its from another store we cant take it'.

[Trakan]

There is no deception. Walmart purposely doesn't ask because they don't care.

Walmart is purposely accepting a calculated business risk by accepting items purchased at other stores and they are, in fact, profitting quite handsomely from their decision to do so.

Lies = Deception.

If you're returning an item to a Wal-Mart and you didn't buy it there, you're lying to them, which is fraud. Fraud is illegal.


They are aware that they are losing money to some customers by accepting items bought at other stores, but they don't care because on the whole they are making money by providing a hassle-free return experience to customers.

Riiight. That's why they've recently limited no-receipt returns to 3 every six months/year. I mean, of course they would limit it, especially if they were profiting from it. Hell, I've tried returning something to Wal-Mart that actually was from Wal-Mart, but I didn't have the receipt, so I couldn't.

What do I know, though? You're the expert, having no Wal-Marts around you.

[botticus]

how can u even take advantage of walmarts policy i took something back there the other day on accident from another store they tryed to scan it and it woudlnt scan instantly they said 'its from another store we cant take it'.
It was probably something that they don't carry, so it wasn't in their system.

[mykevermin]

Lies = Deception.

If you're returning an item to a Wal-Mart and you didn't buy it there, you're lying to them, which is fraud. Fraud is illegal.

Depends. I'd argue that, legally, you have to *say* "I bought it here" or "it was a gift from my aunt in Des Moines, she bought it at a Wal-Mart." OTOH, there could be some legal implications that, upon the *act* of returning an item to a store, one agrees that the item was, in fact, purchased there. If the former is fraud, then you simply need to watch what you say. If the latter, then any act of flipping (save for trade-in exploitation) is illegal.

Riiight. That's why they've recently limited no-receipt returns to 3 every six months/year. I mean, of course they would limit it, especially if they were profiting from it. Hell, I've tried returning something to Wal-Mart that actually was from Wal-Mart, but I didn't have the receipt, so I couldn't.

What do I know, though? You're the expert, having no Wal-Marts around you.

Full disclosure: despite what I probably said earlier in this thread (being against flipping), I did engage in an act of flipping this week. I feel ashamed, and there's no excuse. Long story short, I found a 360 bundle on the cheap a few weeks ago ($500 for platinum, 2 games, and a wireless controller). Well, I knew that I wanted one of the games, and was iffy on the second. Thank the maker for marketplace demos, as I found out how bad this Burnout-with-guns wannabe was, without having to open the package myself. So, I went to a store and told the clerk "I'd like to exchange this, but don't have a receipt." (my words precisely). Ten minutes later, I ended up with Fight Night Round 3. Do I feel bad for flipping? Yeah. Do I feel like a hypocrite? Yeah.

But I'm a hypocrite with Fight Night Round 3. Forgive my rationalizations, but I somehow do not expect to purchase any more games this year that I knowingly did not want, so this will be my flipping in toto for quite some time. I don't blame me, I blame the bundles! (OK, and me too).

[chunk]

Wait, you live somewhere that doesn't have a Walmart?? Rhodesia, perhaps?
There are no Walmarts in NYC. Not just Manhattan either, none in Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx, or Staten Island.

Lies = Deception.

If you're returning an item to a Wal-Mart and you didn't buy it there, you're lying to them, which is fraud. Fraud is illegal.
First of all, if you go to the return counter at walmart and say, "This item was purchased at another store, but I'd like to return it here" how is that lying?

Second of all, lying to the clueless Walmart clerk doesn't necessarily mean that you are defrauding Walmart. Defrauding requires that you lie in order to cheat. Lying in itself does not necessarily imply cheating and, since it is Walmarts policy to accept 3 returns without receipt per year per individual, regardless of where the items were purchased, Walmart is not being cheated.

Now, if you lied in order to make more than 3 returns (I know they check ID, but suppose they didn't check one time) you would be cheating Walmart, since Walmart only agreed to 3 times and no more. That would be fraud.

See TUBAPRO1's conversation with a Walmart manager on page 5 (I'll quote it at the end of this post so everyone can read it).

Riiight. That's why they've recently limited no-receipt returns to 3 every six months/year. I mean, of course they would limit it, especially if they were profiting from it. Hell, I've tried returning something to Wal-Mart that actually was from Wal-Mart, but I didn't have the receipt, so I couldn't.

What do I know, though? You're the expert, having no Wal-Marts around you.
Companies that offer rebates also limit the number of rebates per customer. That doesn't mean they aren't making money by offering rebates. Large retail is a complicated business; it's not as simple as just "buy low, sell high".

With the TRU deal recently, I've looked into both Walmart and TRU's return policy pretty extensively. I'll focus on Walmart's right here:

First off, I went and looked around the store, especially by the returns/exchange counter in my store, and nowhere does it say anything about the item having to come from Walmart. On the website, it says returns without a receipt FOR ITEMS BOUGHT ON WALMART.COM can be returned for a store credit, but in the store it doesn't specify. Also, on the receipt for TRU and Walmart, it makes no mention of this issue.

Secondly, I asked a manager at a Walmart a bunch of questions. I made it clear what was going on and how people (including myself) were doing this. He said that they accept any item that they carry in the store with no receipt for the price they're currently selling it at. I explicitally asked: "Is it items you carry or items purchased from Walmart" and he said that it was items they carry. He also told me (which I'm sure many of you know) that once you make three returns without a receipt your account is supposedly red-flagged and you cannot return anymore. I haven't heard of this actually happening with anyone (my mom and I frequently return things to Walmart simply because we can't find the receipt and we have no idea where they came from).

Also, Walmart has never once asked me "where did you buy this?" or "did you buy this at a Walmart?" If people are so insistent on this being illegal (which I'm honestly not sure if it is or not), then why does Walmart not simply put up signs that state their policy clearly or require employees to ask where the item was purchased?

Another thing many people have brought up is the intention of the return. Sure, flippers are doing it to make a profit on a giftcard. But legally, what separates flippers from people who are returning items that didn't come from Walmart? What distinguishes someone who purchased the game to do this from someone who received a gift without a receipt or is not sure where something came from? If it didn't come from Walmart, they're all breaking this law (if it exists).

The answer is simple. Walmart should simply stop taking unopened games, DVDs, etc. They're pretty much the only large chain that I know of that is still doing this (Target's caught on in recent years, Best Buy/CC are very YMMV, and all videogame stores have NEVER allowed it). And just because people do it here, doesn't mean there aren't people out there doing worse things. I'm sure people scam Walmart and other stores much worse than a few teenagers buying 3 or 4 games and selling them back to Walmart so they can get a different game for a cheaper price. Oh, and if I haven't made it obvious how I feel, flipping is fine with me, as long as you're not a hoarder and buy 20 copies of the same game so no one else can get what they want. I've never operated like that and never will.

[Mookyjooky]

Its a waste of your time. The time you devote to this, you could be doing something you love or making way more money than this.

[judyjudyjudy]

First of all, if you go to the return counter at walmart and say, "This item was purchased at another store, but I'd like to return it here" how is that lying?Has someone actually done this successfully (explicitly said "I'd like to return this item that is from another store that is not Walmart." not "I'd like to return this item you carry.")? I mean, the word "return" itself implies it should be originally from the store.

[chunk]

Has someone actually done this successfully (explicitly said "I'd like to return this item that is from another store that is not Walmart." not "I'd like to return this item you carry.")? I mean, the word "return" itself implies it should be originally from the store.
"Return" doesn't necessarily mean "return to the store it was originally bought from". It could mean, "return to retail" or "return to manufacturer".

Anyway, whether or not this can be done successfully without lying to the clerk isn't really relevent to the legality of the situation. I think it's pretty clear from Walmart's written policy and comments from people that might actually have a clue (like managers) that Walmart is willing to give store credit for items purchased at other stores. The clerk should be acting on behalf of Walmart and should be carrying out this intention. However, what the clerk should be doing and what the clerk does are two different things and it may be necessary to lie to the clerk to get him to do what he should be doing. Now, I personally think it is morally wrong to lie to people, but it isn't against the law as long as you aren't cheating anyone.

[io]

Full disclosure: despite what I probably said earlier in this thread (being against flipping), I did engage in an act of flipping this week. I feel ashamed, and there's no excuse. Long story short, I found a 360 bundle on the cheap a few weeks ago ($500 for platinum, 2 games, and a wireless controller). Well, I knew that I wanted one of the games, and was iffy on the second. Thank the maker for marketplace demos, as I found out how bad this Burnout-with-guns wannabe was, without having to open the package myself. So, I went to a store and told the clerk "I'd like to exchange this, but don't have a receipt." (my words precisely). Ten minutes later, I ended up with Fight Night Round 3. Do I feel bad for flipping? Yeah. Do I feel like a hypocrite? Yeah.

But I'm a hypocrite with Fight Night Round 3. Forgive my rationalizations, but I somehow do not expect to purchase any more games this year that I knowingly did not want, so this will be my flipping in toto for quite some time. I don't blame me, I blame the bundles! (OK, and me too).

Well, that's not SO bad - at least you just exchanged it for an equivalent game of the same value. That doesn't really hurt the store. You didn't get $60 cash for it :D.

Hell, I've taken a few games the grandparents sent the kids that we already had and returned them to Target and TRU - and I was very up front about it. I said these were gifts, I have no idea where they came from, could I exchange them for other games? It was a bit iffy at both places, but it worked (gave me the lowest sale value in history at Target but that was OK - I'm sure they made money on the exchange though!).

[Trakan]

Depends. I'd argue that, legally, you have to *say* "I bought it here" or "it was a gift from my aunt in Des Moines, she bought it at a Wal-Mart." OTOH, there could be some legal implications that, upon the *act* of returning an item to a store, one agrees that the item was, in fact, purchased there. If the former is fraud, then you simply need to watch what you say. If the latter, then any act of flipping (save for trade-in exploitation) is illegal.

I meant the act, although I wouldn't consider buying a game for $10 and then turning around and selling it for $50 legally flipping.


First of all, if you go to the return counter at walmart and say, "This item was purchased at another store, but I'd like to return it here" how is that lying?
I have a hard time believing that any person working at the return counter doing returns would allow an item to be returned after the person specifically stated that it was purchased at another store. I just don't buy it.

Second of all, lying to the clueless Walmart clerk doesn't necessarily mean that you are defrauding Walmart. Defrauding requires that you lie in order to cheat. Lying in itself does not necessarily imply cheating and, since it is Walmarts policy to accept 3 returns without receipt per year per individual, regardless of where the items were purchased.
The person doing the returns is employed by Wal-Mart. If you lie to them, you're essentially lying to Wal-Mart, which in turn is fraud. When lying to that person, you're defrauding him/her, and you're defrauding Wal-Mart.

As far as I know, the policy isn't 3 returns without receipt per year per individual, regardless of where the items were purchased. Again, I'm sure if you walked in and told the clerk that you didn't originally buy the item there, he/she would not allow the item to be returned.