Concept of Paying for Xbox Live...

[Zoglog]

Am I the only one who finds the concept of paying for Xbox Live Gold retarded? Rewind back to Battlenet or even guildwars. Neither one charges or ever charged a monthly fee. However not only did they store your character info on thier own server, but they also host the games on their servers. I find it kind of rediculous how we have to pay monthly for a service that lags like hell because it essentially is just one overblown and bloated matchmaking service that really should be free. Despite some interesting things like Messaging and voice chat.... these are things you can do over the PC for free nowadays and in a more efficient manner. I personally don't mind since I got 2 years of Xbox live for free, however I got to thinking if I would renew after that period and I couldn't think of why I would.

[doubledown]

$50 a year is NOT that much to ask. This is NOT a PC remember...

Don't people pay for PC games also to go online?

[dserafin1986]

Gamemakers like Microsoft eventually have to find other ways to bring in revenue...Xbox Live is one of those ways...Online console gaming was free way back when on the Dreamcast...But it was always intended to be a way for companies to bring in more revenue...Personally I think Xbox live is more than worth the couple of bucks a month that the subscription costs.

[2Fast]

$50 a year = $4.16 per month. I'd say it's more than worth it.

[dafoomie]

The cost is trivial, the most you'd have to pay is $40 for a year, works out to $3.33 a month. If you can get a 12 month card from CC for $22.96, thats
$1.92 a month. I pay more in taxes on my cable bill.

For me, its worth it, I've had it since XBL launched. I'm willing to pay a reasonable amount for several reasons, first of which is that its absolutely not free to run this service. It costs a lot of money. Second is that a free model, ala PS2, puts the burden of the costs of running these severs on the publisher/developer, and that discourages having any online component unless they're charging for it. Some games have their servers shut down because they're not profitable, or they're not selling anymore.

[mmn]

Who pays $50 for Xbox Live? The last two years I've paid $20 per year. Its not like you can't find a good deal on XBL if you're looking.

And this is a stupid thing to debate about, anyhow. If you don't like it, don't pay for it. Same thing can be said for any type of "extra" service - internet, cable television, XM radio, whatever.

[doubledown]

Who pays $50 for Xbox Live? The last two years I've paid $20 per year. Its not like you can't find a good deal on XBL if you're looking.

And this is a stupid thing to debate about, anyhow. If you don't like it, don't pay for it. Same thing can be said for any type of "extra" service - internet, cable television, XM radio, whatever.

I just said $50 for the STANDARD fee. I got my 360 LIVE kits for $15 at CC with the misprint deal....yes, this is CAG, and most don't pay full price.

[daphatty]

Frankly, I agree with the OP. Live should not be a pay-to-play service. Microsoft is not really incurring any substantial costs for the live service.

Think about it. Online games are hosted by a user's console, not a server with a beefy pipe at a co-lo. Most of the chat tools are also peer to peer. About the only feature of live that might incur a cost are content downloads, most of which we have to pay more money for anyway.

Live is a cash cow for MS, nothing more.

[Gojtron]

I was a beta tester for Live, I've been on almost the entire time. That's why we pay for it, to have a stable and identical service between games. I'm glad that they made Silver free, because for the longest time that's all I really wanted. If you don't want to play online, then don't pay. I really fail to see how it's more efficient to chat and message on the PC, I seem to recall needing to run multiple background programs, check your servers/passwords, pray that it doesn't conflict with the actual game, and then badger your friends into using it as well.

[RAMSTORIA]

the few dollars a month is little to pay for a service thats organized and spans dozens and dozens of games, where as on the ps2 all games handle online play differently

on a side note, i no longer use xbl and i dont play any ps2 games online either, i get my online fix with PC, which generally means WOW, and at 15 a month, xbl is cheap compared to WOW

[daphatty]

on a side note, i no longer use xbl and i dont play any ps2 games online either, i get my online fix with PC, which generally means WOW, and at 15 a month, xbl is cheap compared to WOW

Except for the $60 buy in every time you want to play something different. Or the additional marketplace points you have to spend to get new quests. :roll:

WOW>XBL :D

[dafoomie]

Mr. Goodman, the Yankee Group analyst, estimates that Microsoft spent more than $200 million just to develop Xbox Live. Mr. Pachter, of Wedbush Morgan, estimates the company has spent more than $1 billion total on the service, including marketing costs. Microsoft won't disclose the cost, though Mr. Greenberg said it has made "a huge investment" in Xbox Live. Microsoft pledged in 2002 to spend $2 billion over five years to beef up its Xbox business, including the development of Xbox Live and the Xbox 360.
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB113529311826629896-D5ElsazTwuJgA_Yth540V57qAPk_20061229.html?mod=rss_ free

No substantial costs?

[2Fast]

The network costs alone were estimated at $500 million

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/xbox-live3.htm

Have to make that money back somehow.

Although I'm sure that if Xbox Live Gold were free, sales for Xbox and Xbox 360 consoles / games would go way up.

[doubledown]

Except for the $60 buy in every time you want to play something different. Or the additional marketplace points you have to spend to get new quests. :roll:

WOW>XBL :D

Umm, if you wanted to play a different game that incurred costs on the PC, you would have to pay for that also....

$15/month for WoW....wow, I never knew...sheesh, people like to spend lots of money on that.

[ArthurDigbySellers]

Who pays $50 for Xbox Live? The last two years I've paid $20 per year. Its not like you can't find a good deal on XBL if you're looking.

And this is a stupid thing to debate about, anyhow. If you don't like it, don't pay for it. Same thing can be said for any type of "extra" service - internet, cable television, XM radio, whatever.

I would say that the average gamer does play $50 (or more if they are buying those dumb ass XBL kits) for a year of XBL. The vast majority of gamers out there aren't CAGs.

mmn, I swear I think you are an MSoft plant sometimes. I don't see how it is a stupid debate when Sony and Nintendo are both offering a free matchmaking service with their new consoles.

Obviously MSoft is thinking seriously about the XBL fees since they are now offering a Silver package and talking about free XBL with ads.

[Purkeynator]

Umm, if you wanted to play a different game that incurred costs on the PC, you would have to pay for that also....

$15/month for WoW....wow, I never knew...sheesh, people like to spend lots of money on that.

Yeah and that $15 is for one game. My $3 or $4 a month gives me access to about 25 games I have that support Xbox Live. The buy-in can be cheap too. There are a ton of Xbox games that can be had for below $10 now.Also the Live games tend to have a longer online lifespan. Some PS2 games have already killed off their online support. I know Tony Hawk 3 has and I imagine some of EA's "older" games have dropped support because there is no more profit to be had from them.

[dafoomie]

I would say that the average gamer does play $50 (or more if they are buying those dumb ass XBL kits) for a year of XBL. The vast majority of gamers out there aren't CAGs.

mmn, I swear I think you are an MSoft plant sometimes. I don't see how it is a stupid debate when Sony and Nintendo are both offering a free matchmaking service with their new consoles.

Obviously MSoft is thinking seriously about the XBL fees since they are now offering a Silver package and talking about free XBL with ads.
You're arguing against perhaps the best designed console online service with two "free" services that no one has ever seen, that don't even exist yet. Lets wait and see how good these free services are before we start decrying the massive $3 a month in fees.

My original argument stands, a free service discourages developers from adding online play to their games since they have to bear the costs of running the service. Many titles drop support once they've run their sales course. It does cost money to run the servers for your game. Ask any developer with the exception of EA which model they prefer.

[Zoglog]

I don't buy that whole PC vs Console excuse for online infrastructure payment. It's irrelivant. Are you telling me Blizzard had no costs involved with battlenet? Especially since they stored character data as well as hosted games? Still I didn't see myself being charged.....

Just because the cost is small does not make it right.

[javeryh]

$50 is completely worth it from the amount of enjoyment I get out of XBL.

[mmn]

I would say that the average gamer does play $50 (or more if they are buying those dumb ass XBL kits) for a year of XBL. The vast majority of gamers out there aren't CAGs.

mmn, I swear I think you are an MSoft plant sometimes. I don't see how it is a stupid debate when Sony and Nintendo are both offering a free matchmaking service with their new consoles.

Obviously MSoft is thinking seriously about the XBL fees since they are now offering a Silver package and talking about free XBL with ads.

So if the average gamer feels its worth $50, then why are CAGers, who will obviously pay less than half that, complaining?

I wish I was a plant. I already like MS, getting money from them would be icing on the cake. Also, if you dislike my posts, you're welcome to block me.

Dafoomie was exactly right, you're talking about shit that doesn't even EXIST yet. Nobody has seen it - its all speculation at this point. You may be right if both Sony and Nintendo come out with services for free that blow XBL away. We'll see. But right now your argument is invalid.

Are you telling me Blizzard had no costs involved with battlenet? Especially since they stored character data as well as hosted games? Still I didn't see myself being charged.....

I seem to remember Bnet having tons of problems, including lag issues, rampant cheating, and constant down time. Of course, this was when Starcraft was in the height of its popularity - it may be better now.

I don't get how you're defending one Blizzard product knowing that they charge $15 a month for WOW. Right now, today, Blizz is doing the same thing MS is doing - charging you to play their game online.

[Brak]

mmn, I swear I think you are an MSoft plant sometimes. I don't see how it is a stupid debate when Sony and Nintendo are both offering a free matchmaking service with their new consoles.

Nintendo (in terms of Revolution) haven't even mentioned online matchmaking. And Sony is doing their classic beating-around-the-bush shit, where they're saying their online service is free... dot dot dot... but there will be a better service in which you have to pay for. Since Sony is photocopying the Live blueprints, expect the paying service to include matchmaking.

[javeryh]

oh, and I'd much rather pay a yearly $50 flat fee then get into individual monthly fees for certain games. Screw that.

[shipwreck]

Holy crap, I've somehow stepped into a portal that took me back to the 2002 GameFAQs forums. NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Purkeynator]

You get what you pay for. Nuff said.

[dafoomie]

I don't buy that whole PC vs Console excuse for online infrastructure payment. It's irrelivant. Are you telling me Blizzard had no costs involved with battlenet? Especially since they stored character data as well as hosted games? Still I didn't see myself being charged.....

Just because the cost is small does not make it right.
Battlenet was advertising for other Blizzard games. And in the years I played Warcraft 2 and Starcraft on it, it really wasn't that good. Supporting 3 or 4 games is nothing compared to supporting hundreds.

I just gave you the hard numbers, its no "small" cost. But by all means, don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

[toper]

When you look at the current console alternative to paying for an online service (which is the ps2's free, but inadequate, online scheme...trust me, I've been there), I'm more than happy to pay xbox live's bill.

[mmn]

Zoglog, I still don't understand why you even created this thread. You got 2 years of XBL for free and you said you won't renew when your service has expired. What's the problem? If you were that impressed with XBL, you'd be willing to pay for it. Obviously you're not, so you won't. I don't understand what your problem is.

And let me state that I'm not trying to be a dick by saying that. I'm seriously trying to get this whole thing. To me, this is the equivalent of saying "I got a coupon for a free fries with Whopper purchase from Burger King. I didn't like the fries, and I won't be buying them next time I go to BK. But seriously, the fries should be free from the start."

[Zoglog]

So if the average gamer feels its worth $50, then why are CAGers, who will obviously pay less than half that, complaining?

I wish I was a plant. I already like MS, getting money from them would be icing on the cake. Also, if you dislike my posts, you're welcome to block me.

Dafoomie was exactly right, you're talking about shit that doesn't even EXIST yet. Nobody has seen it - its all speculation at this point. You may be right if both Sony and Nintendo come out with services for free that blow XBL away. We'll see. But right now your argument is invalid.



I seem to remember Bnet having tons of problems, including lag issues, rampant cheating, and constant down time. Of course, this was when Starcraft was in the height of its popularity - it may be better now.

I don't get how you're defending one Blizzard product knowing that they charge $15 a month for WOW. Right now, today, Blizz is doing the same thing MS is doing - charging you to play their game online.

and you still forget one thing about Bnet, it was free =p. And the lag was far less than what I experience in ghost recon or DOA4, and I know it isn't my ISP since I just switched from DSL 1.5mbps to cable 4mbps and have the same problems.
According to Xbox Live these were all full bar no lag games. And don't evenm get me started on the browsing for games........ Ghost recon is obviously the worst culprit since games are started by the time the list refreshes anyway.

But either way I never mentioned anything about WoW in the first place, and if you're questioning why they charge for that it's simple. it's an MMORPG. They have a persistent world with constant updates and GMs across the clock. I don't know if you people may remember with PSO 1 and 2 with the original Xbox was the height of the insult. You had to pay for live to even play the singleplayer. and on top of live you had to pay for the monthly fee of like 12 dollars a month for a game that wasnte ven an MMO.

I see nothing wrong with Xbox charging for live, however they need to start hosting some games.

[Brak]

and you still forget one thing about Bnet, it was free =p. And the lag was far less than what I experience in ghost recon or DOA4, and I know it isn't my ISP since I just switched from DSL 1.5mbps to cable 4mbps and have the same problems.

You think it's Live that lags? Wow...

[Zoglog]

You think it's Live that lags? Wow...

yeah talk about out of context, I was referring to the comparison vs hosted and unhosted games. Also If you would read further I do believe Server browsing population would fall under live. I remember an old program say Quakespy/gamespy or all seeing eye that would do it all and BETTER for free.

And just because I got it for free doesn't mean I don't have a right to question MS' Stance for charging for live. Because in the end it's really the principle of the matter since as many people have pointed out, the cost is miniscule.

[KaneRobot]

I'd expect XBL WILL eventually be free - meaning Silver service will let you play online, but with ads forced upon you. They will still offer a pay service with no ads...this setup sounding familiar to anyone? 75% of the sites I frequent have moved to a two-tiered structure just like that.

They're almost going to have to provide a way for people to pay for free if Nintendo and Sony make it ad-based and/or free. Yes, Nintendo is likely not a threat to Microsoft's market position, and yes, Sony's "innovation" usually seems to amount to copying whatever MS does first...but it still comes down to people who will just look at it on the surface without thinking and say "one's free, one isn't, end of debate."

[mmn]

And just because I got it for free doesn't mean I don't have a right to question MS' Stance for charging for live. Because in the end it's really the principle of the matter since as many people have pointed out, the cost is miniscule.

Yes, it does mean you don't have the right. Nobody who pays for it started this topic. I would assume that means that people who pay are generally happy with the service.

You say "principle" as though MS is doing a disservice to its customers by charging for Live. When, in all honesty, what they're doing is a service by offering Live in the first place. There could be NO online model for the Xbox or 360. Would you prefer that?

And you keep saying the cost is miniscule when Dafoomie JUST gave you a bunch of numbers and links to articles that say how much MS has invested. Why are you completely ignoring his posts?

[Brak]

yeah talk about out of context, I was referring to the comparison vs hosted and unhosted games.

Uh. That's wasn't out of context. You said that Live lags. Let me repeat that: YOU said that LIVE LAGS. What's up for debate, there? PC games lag, depending on who you play against. Play against one person with a dogshit dial-up hybrid connection, it can take the whole game down.

I don't like it when people state the obvious, but I'm going to have to, since you seem devoid to it: don't want to pay for Live? Don't pay for Live. You didn't pay for Live, so what are you complaining about? Oh, I know... you like Live so much that when your free Live runs out, you still want to use it. If you still want to use it, then pay for it. If you don't want to pay for it, then deal with no being able to use it.

It's alright to address problems with anything, but to say it's stupid to pay for a service because you're not willing to pay for it (even though you're using it) is absurd and selfish.

Microsoft sells their consoles at a loss, so they try evening it out with us paying for software and sucking massive amounts of bandwidth (which is expensive as fuck) -- and that's why we pay for Live.

[62t]

I am sure for a lot of people live is fine. However there are others who might be going on line with a console for several times a month. For those people who dont go online that much, they will prefer the PS2's free model. Ms could have allow more options for online gaming, allow thrid parties to do all the work like the PS2 model.

[ryanbph]

I'd expect XBL WILL eventually be free - meaning Silver service will let you play online, but with ads forced upon you. They will still offer a pay service with no ads...this setup sounding familiar to anyone? 75% of the sites I frequent have moved to a two-tiered structure just like that.

They're almost going to have to provide a way for people to pay for free if Nintendo and Sony make it ad-based and/or free. Yes, Nintendo is likely not a threat to Microsoft's market position, and yes, Sony's "innovation" usually seems to amount to copying whatever MS does first...but it still comes down to people who will just look at it on the surface without thinking and say "one's free, one isn't, end of debate."
there was an interview that they talked about xbox live being free but with ad's.

[Purkeynator]

there was an interview that they talked about xbox live being free but with ad's.

If that is true I wouldn't want the free version. I get enough ads on TV, the radio, movie theatre movies (remember when you didn't have to watch commercials at the movies), dvds (remember when you could just hit the menu button and skip all the previews?), and even now videogames themselves. I don't want to watch commercials, I just want to get my Halo on.

[guyver2077]

totally worth the money.. and ive payed full price the last 2 years...

[terribledeli]

If that is true I wouldn't want the free version. I get enough ads on TV, the radio, movie theatre movies (remember when you didn't have to watch commercials at the movies), dvds (remember when you could just hit the menu button and skip all the previews?), and even now videogames themselves. I don't want to watch commercials, I just want to get my Halo on.

Same here. I wonder what an ad Xbox Live would be though. I wonder if you'd get "Check out the latest flavors of Icee at your local gas station!" in your message box.

[psychobrawler]

I've also paid for LIVE since launch, with no hesitation of renewing every time. I've had way too much fun play RS3, Halo 2, GRAW - whatever I was into - for $4 a month. You're using an infrastructure created, operated, and overseen by MS. And if you're been on since the beginning, you know that there have been several updates and improvements, and there are more still to come. MS is constantly working on fine tuning this beast, and they've done a damn good job IMO. I've seen little or no lag in my 360 experience so far. And later gen xbox titles also seemed to have reached stride.

It's supply and demand. I'd rather pay for what I consider a very well executed product than have it become free and left up to publishers - and end up like the PS2 online network. Use XBConnect or something if you'd rather. I've been there, and the $50 is well worth it by comparison.

[Tha Xecutioner]

:-({|=
I don't see the concept of complaining about EVERYTHING the 360 has to offer when you yourself purchase the system and play it almost everyday, when you continue to purchase games for it, when you probably purchase arcade games, when you use the Xbox Live service everytime you sign on, and also when you visit a 360 thread everyday with a sig that is showing off the fact that you not only went to the Zero Hour event (the biggest event Xbox has had in a while) but also that you enjoy the very object you are complaining about. If PC and PS2 online services are far superior than Xbox Live, then go play those and post in those threads, and quit filling up this section of the site with whining, complaining, and pointless, illogical remarks.

[friedram]

Except for the $60 buy in every time you want to play something different. Or the additional marketplace points you have to spend to get new quests. :roll:

WOW>XBL :D

World of Warcraft is a ton of fun, but it also sucks up a ton of time. The next MMORPG that I play is one that I'm helping fund (and that way I can have god load equipment that's better than any equipment you can get in "real game")

Just imagine- playing a monster against the characters- "AHHH, it's killing the healers first! It's supposed to be stupid and have agro rules!"

[Michaellvortega]

PS2 online is ghey and the online joke that Nintnedo pulled on the gamecube was the worse try ever. Xbox live was well worth the money I spent on it so far and if Nintendo and Sony come out with services that MEET the quality that Live has at a free price point I would expect MS to follow through with free service as well to match.

[Apossum]

PS2 online is ghey and the online joke that Nintnedo pulled on the gamecube was the worse try ever. Xbox live was well worth the money I spent on it so far and if Nintendo and Sony come out with services that MEET the quality that Live has at a free price point I would expect MS to follow through with free service as well to match.

I bet Nintendo's service for the Rev will be pretty kick ass. Just online play (free), downloadable games (which of course, will cost money) and probably downloadable demos (also free.) none of this Mission Impossible 3 trailer and Perfect Dark Zero game picture bullshit. Live play is cool, friends lists are cool and demos are cool, but there's a ton of extraneous crap.

also, what's up with the point system? that's one of the most annoying parts-- points? real money would have been so much easier. what practical use do points have for the consumer (I know they help MS make more money, but that's the only purpose they serve that I can think of.)

[Brak]

also, what's up with the point system? that's one of the most annoying parts-- points? real money would have been so much easier. what practical use do points have for the consumer (I know they help MS make more money, but that's the only purpose they serve that I can think of.)

People think they're spending less when it's not in terms of literal money.

[moojuice]

So, I haven't read the whole thread, but there are a few questions I have...actually, on second thought, just one:

So why the hell are we paying Microsoft for live, instead of developers/publishers/whoever makes games? I mean, generally, we host games, and all we really get from MS is the content d/l. What exactly does my ~$50 pay for? I know it can't be servers, thats for sure.

[shipwreck]

Actually, the points system can benefit the consumer as well. Circuit City had that sale where 1600 points were $13.99. I don't think they would have such a sale on $20 Xbox Live gift cards.

I haven't paid full price for Marketplace Points yet, so I like the point system.

[Skelah]

xbox live should be free what I think they shouldve done is make live games cost 2 dollars more if they still want to be greedy.

Its not about how much enjoyment out of it thats such a stupid exscuse you could play a game on the pc for free that you realy enjoy and its free.

[Brak]

So, I haven't read the whole thread, but there are a few questions I have...actually, on second thought, just one:

So why the hell are we paying Microsoft for live, instead of developers/publishers/whoever makes games? I mean, generally, we host games, and all we really get from MS is the content d/l. What exactly does my ~$50 pay for? I know it can't be servers, thats for sure.

All Xbox users connect to Microsoft servers to play. We only host games within those servers. So, we're paying for their servers, bandwidth and service.

EA is the only exception to the rule, where they have servers for their own titles.

[Brak]

xbox live should be free what I think they shouldve done is make live games cost 2 dollars more if they still want to be greedy.

Its not about how much enjoyment out of it thats such a stupid exscuse you could play a game on the pc for free that you realy enjoy and its free.

i know its so stupid i mean i can play splinter cell chaos theory halo 2 ghost recon advance war fighter and so many other titles on my pc for free oh wait no i cant

That's very black and white thinking. Some people don't have good PCs, some people don't have the money for good PCs, some people don't want PCs and, more importantly, some games that can be played on Xbox Live can't be played on the PC.

[moojuice]

Ok, so what do those servers do? Or do you mean that everyone connects to those servers, and when we "host" we are just borrowing space from those servers?

[Brak]

Ok, so what do those servers do? Or do you mean that everyone connects to those servers, and when we "host" we are just borrowing space from those servers?

Look at it this way, I guess. Use this forum for an example. Someone makes a topic on the CheapAssGamer forum, and people start posting inside the topic.

Someone made the topic, but it's existing within the realms of the CheapAssGamer webspace.

[shipwreck]

There's a lot more going on with Live than just connecting to other people to play.

-Secure environment where cheating is pretty much eliminated
-Stat/scoreboard tracking
-Matchmaking with players you prefer, ignoring players you have given negatives, matching you with players based on group (casual, competitive, etc.)
-A rating system that allows you to report people that are cheating or just let Live know who you don't want to play with
-Easy communication and management of online friends that makes it incredibly easy to join or invite people to games
-Secure downloads for your games



Those are just a couple things off the top of my head. This isn't a trivial thing to provide all of that.

[moojuice]

...I still don't get it lol, but thanks for trying to explain. Anyways though, in my opinion, I don't think that we should have to pay if we have to host our own games (meaning if you have crappy upload, the game will lag). I'd rather pay more to get faster, reliable servers, than rely on other players connections. Again, thats my opinion.

[klwillis45]

The same peeps who think XBL is a rip are probably the same ones who want a la carte cable/satelite cuz they think they'll save $$$.

I've had XBL since it was in beta and I will never think of canceling unless they change the system. IMO, it's perfect right now...don't fuck with it.

[mmn]

xbox live should be free what I think they shouldve done is make live games cost 2 dollars more if they still want to be greedy.

Its not about how much enjoyment out of it thats such a stupid exscuse you could play a game on the pc for free that you realy enjoy and its free.

Oh my God, you're so right! I'm going to go cancel my Xbox Live right now and use the $50 it costs to upgrade my PC so I can.....

Oh no, wait. It costs HUNDREDS to get an older PC up to Xbox 360 specs. I think I'll stick with XBL.

...I still don't get it lol, but thanks for trying to explain.

CAG has ads, correct? See, look at the top of the forum. Ads. That's how CheapyD pays for the domain space and the bandwidth usage of CAG. That's why its FREE to come to this website and use this forum. I'd bet that if Cheapy didn't have those ads he'd probably have to charge you to use this website. And it'd be well worth it, because the $3 or $4 per month you'd spend here would end up saving you more on gaming purchases.

Apply that logic to Xbox Live and you'll understand why they charge.

[moojuice]

CAG has ads, correct? See, look at the top of the forum. Ads. That's how CheapyD pays for the domain space and the bandwidth usage of CAG. That's why its FREE to come to this website and use this forum. I'd bet that if Cheapy didn't have those ads he'd probably have to charge you to use this website. And it'd be well worth it, because the $3 or $4 per month you'd spend here would end up saving you more on gaming purchases.

Apply that logic to Xbox Live and you'll understand why they charge.

This is where I don't get it (Note: I see the analogy as cag.com:Microsoft Servers and Topics:Hosted games. Correct me if im wrong, and disregard the next chunk o' text).

Whoever makes the topics does not have to constantly send out the data to everyone who wants to read/post in the topic, because everything is stored at CAG . Whereas Live, whoever hosts the game has to send and recieve data from other players, and the only connection to live is just for logging in.

[Brak]

Whoever makes the topics does not have to constantly send out the data to everyone who wants to read/post in the topic, because everything is stored at CAG . Whereas Live, whoever hosts the game has to send and recieve data from other players, and the only connection to live is just for logging in.

In Xbox Live, everyone's data is sent to Xbox Live and to other players, and back to them.

I think you're thinking of a dedicated host (or dedicated server), where a person lets their machine act as a server. You most see that in PC gaming (and you can do it on a couple of Ubi-Soft games). You're constantly sending and recieving data from the Xbox Live servers.

[moojuice]

In Xbox Live, everyone's data is sent to Xbox Live and to other players, and back to them.

I think you're thinking of a dedicated host (or dedicated server), where a person lets their machine act as a server. You most see that in PC gaming (and you can do it on a couple of Ubi-Soft games). You're constantly sending and recieving data from the Xbox Live servers.
Then how come with COD2, alot of lag was dependent on the host( as in the player that was hosting the game). If all the data is sent to Live, then why is there lag depending on the host. Or are you saying a host acts as a middle man, who sends all the data from others into Live, then recieving data from live, and spreading that data to the other players?

[Brak]

Then how come with COD2, alot of lag was dependent on the host( as in the player that was hosting the game). If all the data is sent to Live, then why is there lag depending on the host. Or are you saying a host acts as a middle man, who sends all the data from others into Live, then recieving data from live, and spreading that data to the other players?

Well, I don't know about CoD2, but I do know that in any game, if one person is (whether it be PC or console), it takes everyone down with them, regardless if they're host or not.

I know on Halo 2, where it has matchmaking, the game selects the person with the best connection to be "host" -- so I think they do act as a middle-man in some games. I think it depends on the game. I'm not positive, though.

Regardless, all game date is streamed back and forth from each individual user to Xbox Live, to the other users and back again. So Xbox Live is more of the middle man, for lack of a better term, connecting everyone together. It acts as the bridge.

[Grave_Addiction]

Keep in mind there are rumors that Sony's online service will be completely free and will rival XBL. If this ends up being true, it will be interesting to see what Microsoft does to combat Sony's move.

[flybrione]

Here is my perspective which I said before. . .

I really enjoy the world of xbox live. My friends play it and got me into it around the time XIII and Jedi Academy came out. We played those game to death and I loved every minute of it. I have been a member of the service for about 3 years now and really have had not one problem or complaint with the service.

With the introduction of the 360 we now get free demos to download, a personality with gamer pics and themes and the xbox live aracade. Of course all of this is optional and if you do not want to pay for these things you do not have to. You can easily make your own custom theme and also choose one of the free gamer pics and also unlock free gamer pics by playing some games you already own.

I have played the PS2 online and thought for free it worked well but it is not as secure as xbox live and I have encountered many cheaters when playing on ps2 in sports titles, a few FPS and even Champions series.

I have also played my PC online and as I have stated in the past think it works well but I just do not really enjoy PC gaming at all and the MMORPGs take up to much time and will cost you twice the amount of money to play for one game a year.

I would rather play a multiple games on one platform on secure servers for $50 a year. But this is my opinion and you do not have to pay and play on xbox live if you think the fees are too much.

I'm pretty sure that the new PS3 and Revolution will have some kind of pay service for either downloads or games in general and this will also be an option and you do not have to pay for it.

What I do not understand is why people pay for something they do not care for and then complain about it. If you were already a memeber in the past and did not enjoy the service why did you pay for it again? They also do offer trials which you can try before you sign up why did you not sign up on a trial subscription?

[Brak]

Keep in mind there are rumors that Sony's online service will be completely free and will rival XBL. If this ends up being true, it will be interesting to see what Microsoft does to combat Sony's move.

Sony has already made the statement that there is going to be a Silver and Gold account system under their service. They didn't use the word "Silver" and "Gold" (I forgot what they used, actually), but they might as well have.

[shipwreck]

Sony has already made the statement that there is going to be a Silver and Gold account system under their service. They didn't use the word "Silver" and "Gold" (I forgot what they used, actually), but they might as well have.

I believe they called it the "We're Not fucking Sure What We Are Doing" tier and the "We're Really Not fucking Sure What We Are Doing" tier.

[Brak]

I believe they called it the "We're Not fucking Sure What We Are Doing" tier and the "We're Really Not fucking Sure What We Are Doing" tier.

I think it was more like the "Scrambling to Do Whatever Microsoft Is Doing" tier and, I believe, the "Scrambling to Do Whatever Microsoft Is Doing" tier, or something akin to that.

[Viva Las Vegas]

The part that pisses me off about Live is if you pay for a Gold account, you should be able to have family members play online games with their own account on the same damn 360. That is super fn lame they expect every member of the same house to have to pay for a Gold membership so they can play online.

[Maklershed]

I say this argument is equivalent to terrestrial vs. satellite radio. Why pay for satellite when you can get terrestrial radio for free? Cause terrestrial is shite and doesnt come close to the awesomeness of satellite. Same can be said for ps2/gamecube/pc online gaming services as compared to xbox live.

[daphatty]

I don't get how you're defending one Blizzard product knowing that they charge $15 a month for WOW. Right now, today, Blizz is doing the same thing MS is doing - charging you to play their game online.

There's a HUGE difference between batte.net and WoW's online service. The WoW databases make Starcraft/Diablo look like an excel spreadsheet.

As for the comparison between XBL and WoW, Blizzard may be charging for their service but you better believe that their operational costs make XBL look like childsplay. All kidding aside, the WoW online service is much larger than XBL. Justifying Blizzard's costs and then comparing them to XBL isn't a fair comparison.

Am I making sense? :bomb:

[PittsburghAfterDark]

I know this is CAG, I know people think XBL should be "free".

BS.

Nothing in gaming is free. There is no free bandwidth, no free matchmaking service (To the gaming company.), there are no free patches, maps, etc. I paid nothing for XBL service this year, last year was a gift and the year before that was $20. I play XBL probably 1-2 hours a day, more than I watch TV on many days, yet I pay $52 a month for expanded basic cable, now THAT'S a ripoff.

I have 0 pay channels, have to watch commercials on every single channel and it's still more than one year of XBL.

I go to the movies with my GF and we drop $20 on tickets, $30 on dinner for 3 hours outside the house. Go to a sporting event? We spend $200+ on Penguin tickets, dinner and parking. Night at the Pirate game, $100 for tickets, boat ferry, parking and food.

There is no better value relative to money out of pocket vs. usage/reward than XBL.

I'd pay double the price for a year and still think I'm getting my money's worth.

[Zoglog]

Uh. That's wasn't out of context. You said that Live lags. Let me repeat that: YOU said that LIVE LAGS. What's up for debate, there? PC games lag, depending on who you play against. Play against one person with a dogshit dial-up hybrid connection, it can take the whole game down.

I don't like it when people state the obvious, but I'm going to have to, since you seem devoid to it: don't want to pay for Live? Don't pay for Live. You didn't pay for Live, so what are you complaining about? Oh, I know... you like Live so much that when your free Live runs out, you still want to use it. If you still want to use it, then pay for it. If you don't want to pay for it, then deal with no being able to use it.

It's alright to address problems with anything, but to say it's stupid to pay for a service because you're not willing to pay for it (even though you're using it) is absurd and selfish.

Microsoft sells their consoles at a loss, so they try evening it out with us paying for software and sucking massive amounts of bandwidth (which is expensive as fuck) -- and that's why we pay for Live.

Wow more ignorance and words taken out of context. You obviously have no sense of logic or flow. Live's lag is in the browser but of course if you read u'd already know that. I never said lag was not possible in other games either. U sure like putting words in people's mouths

You people state off all these features and I don't deny that XBL does those things. However how well has True Skill actually worked? And my main argument is other companies have done the same and EVEN MORE in many cases for free. I'm suprised you guys would get so offended and fanboyish on the issue. I never said for certain that it was not worth it considering no alternate substitue for this console, but it doesnt mean in principle considering the previous standards that it should be considered ok.

and if you got a problem with the gamertag don't blame me, It's just the one that was set at the event and I never cared enough to change it. inadequacy issues you have?

[TC]

I pray Sony has a matchmaking system like LIVE for free. Then some of the assclowns from LIVE may migrate there.

[CappyCobra]

There are alternatives to paying for xbox-live
http://www.xbconnect.com/
http://www.joystiq.com/2006/01/23/free-alternative-to-xbox-live/

You pay $50 a year for:

- Consistency across games (match-making, voice chat, messaging, etc)
- FAIR gameplay. No more GameShark Kiddies (Anyone recall Speed Devils online for Dreamcast? What a friggin joke)
- Relatively lag-free enviroment
- SEEMLESS intergration. No half-baked concepts here

STFU and stop your bitching and go back to playing Sega Rally on your Saturn NetLink ;) We all know how successful free online gaming is. NGC is non-existant (hell, you can't even get the bband adapter anymore), and the PS2 is littered with cheaters. I will gladly pay $50 a year for a well rounded service.

I WELCOME the competition that Sony/Nintendo will bring with the onset of thier next gen systems. Thier innovations will force MS's hand to innovate further adding more value to the service.

[thamaster24]

Hopefully like most CAGers I don't pay full price for Xbox Live, actually I have it free til December 2009 so I guess I'm good. But for the 2 months I played City of Heros on my PC, I felt like I was getting ripped off, isn't it something like 24.99 a month.

[Murcielago77]

If you dont think its worth paying for it, dont pay for it then, simple as that

[AshesofWake]

Hopefully like most CAGers I don't pay full price for Xbox Live, actually I have it free til December 2009 so I guess I'm good. But for the 2 months I played City of Heros on my PC, I felt like I was getting ripped off, isn't it something like 24.99 a month.


you obviousl didn't play it then, cuz it's 15 dollars a month. and that's a completely different story...

[D4rkN1ght]

i got live when Unreal Championship came out for Xbox, i really dont mind paying 50$ a year, and if i can get it cheaper then better, those other "microsoft points" AKA money you wasted giving microsoft for a 2k picture, or a arcade game is what i really dont feel like paying for, so i dont, some do, and thats cool too...

[psychobrawler]

I think people have done a pretty fair job pointing out the pros and cons. So the question is this: is it worth it to pay for the ability to put in any game and see all your friends and what they're playing, chat, matchmaking, etc.? Or do you go with relying on devs to put those features in each game and have a whole new set up with every freaking title. Please think about what you're asking when you want things moved to the dev side instead of MS. If that happens, MANY will start charging a few buck a month to keep up their servers, and next thing you know that Halo 2, GRAW, PGR3, etc. habit you have will be costing you $50 a month to keep up with. XBL works. It's the best there is for on-line CONSOLE gaming. If something better comes along, we can resume this debate then...

[PittsburghAfterDark]

Forget Speed Kings for the Dreamcast, I didn't even know anyone had that game :lol: take a look at PSO for the Dreamcast. Despite it being subscription based that game was still hacked to everloving hell.

It's the consistency of the experience that's the key ingredient. Cheaters are rare, griefers are few and far between. After these 2 month cards disappear for good people don't want to lose $50 for cheating, acting like a dick or talking smack.

I think the 360 XBL experience is much better than the Xbox experience mainly due to the fact that the account a week/month users are gone, gone, gone.

[Staind204]

If you dont think its worth paying for it, dont pay for it then, simple as that


Couldn't have said it better..

[KaneRobot]

Keep in mind there are rumors that Sony's online service will be completely free and will rival XBL. If this ends up being true, it will be interesting to see what Microsoft does to combat Sony's move.

Probably what was said earlier - an ad supported free version. Yes, Sony's might be "free," but you don't really think they'll just put up an XBL-level service with absolutely no catches or charges, do you?

As far as "WoW > XBL"...no fucking way. 15 bucks a month for access to one game, or 3 months worth of WoW cost for a year of a multitude of games with a better infastructure?

[Michaellvortega]

Keep in mind their are rumors there are BIG changes to Xbox live coming at E3. Gamecubes online was a JOKE after all the hype that they put up saying warp pipe technology via gamespot side by side with Mario Kart would change online gaming for cube. Sony on the other hand did a OK job but still FAR from Xbox live quality.Sony really didnt care about people cheating and made little to no bans of accounts. Why didnt they ban accounts? because you could make as many as you wanted.You can go back and forth all day but at the End of the day neither Sony nor Nintendo have created a currently usable(much less Emmy winning)service that has a universal gamertag(name)/ friends list/downloadable demos/downloadable trailers/downloadble content/ability to chat to others while playing DIFFRENT games/ behavior accountability/etc.

[Morpheus]

Same here. I wonder what an ad Xbox Live would be though. I wonder if you'd get "Check out the latest flavors of Icee at your local gas station!" in your message box.

Funny you mention the message box thing sarcastically when its actually happening right now. Anyone else get ads of 360 games/demos from friends in their message box that are all identical? That's because MS is using our gamertags and list of friends to market games for other companies and their own games.

I don't like that they use my gamertag to pass on ads of coming games to friends on my friends list. Its like someone going into my email account and sending out ads to all my friends on my address book. Its an invasion of privacy in a sense.

[GizmoGC]

We should get free gas. They already make enough money from the cars we buy. Why should we pay for gas?

[Michaellvortega]

We should get free gas. They already make enough money from the cars we buy. Why should we pay for gas?

Cars are ghey! You buy it for $20000+ then you have to buy gas? I'll use my bike which I pay for then ride for free.

[Brak]

Wow more ignorance and words taken out of context. You obviously have no sense of logic or flow. Live's lag is in the browser but of course if you read u'd already know that. I never said lag was not possible in other games either. U sure like putting words in people's mouths

...

Let's recap, because you're digging the hole deeper:

You complained about Live lagging. You know this; I know this. Dead issue.

Now, you say I'm ignorant for pointing out that you are complaining about Live lagging. Doesn't make sense.

Lastly, I know you never said that lag wasn't possible on other platforms. My posts reflect that; your posts reflect that. You are, however, complaining that Live lags -- but not complaining about the God-like PC platform lagging, rendering your logic pointless, as you did refer to the PC online play as a sparkling alternative.

Also, "Live's lag is in the browser" doesn't make any sense. I'm not reading any of your posts again.

[Zoglog]

I'm not reading any of your posts again.

Ok Jack Thompson, i'm so heart broken

[Skelah]

Id like to add that if you already pay for ur net service to pay for live service ontop of that seems a little crappy.

If anything the service should cost like an anual 8 dollars.

Also some of you should relax this is just a simple debate.

[Kapwanil]

I'm really only paying around $2 a month on my account so I have no real worries or concerns on my part. Granted, sometimes picking up a random game and hitting it online results in absolute failure since no one else is playing but if I ever want to get together with my friends and BS for hours on end without flying around the country, it's a fine substitute.

That and, honestly, only a few of my friends are keeping htier computers as high-end as possible to keep up with the latest games. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them, but I never was really into PC gaming all that much (or, at least, I have no problems playing games from a few years ago).

Would I still pay for XBL for $50 a year? Certainly. The amount of game time I've logged with my friends alone probably makes my time spent on Disgaea seem pitiful in comparison. Would I do the same on a PC? I considered it with WoW for a while but it just wasn't for me. I still would have nailed a year of WoW for around maybe $40 by the end and the game itself for a whopping $10, but there's only so much time to go around.

Each format has its positives and negatives, really. I toss money towards XBL since it works for me, that and I like popping in a game and just having some online fun. It's worth every single penny to me. At worst it means I don't buy a Coke or something when I go out to eat. And, hey, if I want my XBL to ever lapse most of my friends are off playing Warcraft III anyway and, hey, free is free.

Just pick what you like, stay away from what you don't and, in case something isn't to your liking, try tossing some snail mail and suggestions to the company(ies) themselves. Give them ideas, that sort of thing. Besides, if you don't want to pay for XBL, the free weekends seem to be coming around more often. Isn't the latest talk that one is coming up during the entire week of E3? That would be most excellent since, yes, it adds a whole load of jerks to the mix but, hey, that's what the wonderful Mute function is for. Just so long as I get to play against other people...

[Zoglog]

Id like to add that if you already pay for ur net service to pay for live service ontop of that seems a little crappy.

If anything the service should cost like an anual 8 dollars.

Also some of you should relax this is just a simple debate.

my point exactly, people are taking the whole subject way too seriously and somehow getting offended by the idea that I would consider MS is charging people for a subpar service that was offered in previous years at a much more substantial quality. Not only that it was not only just a glorified matchmaking service that live is, but actual hosting of data and games as well at the grand cost of Free to the user.

instead I get gamefaqs users like Brak here trolling me for any negative comment I make about the service or Live.

[RAMSTORIA]

blah blah blah blah xbox live blah blah blah blah blah blah blah free blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 50 dollars blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah xbox live blah blah blah blah blah blah blah free blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 50 dollars blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah xbox live blah blah blah blah blah blah blah free blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 50 dollars blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah xbox live blah blah blah blah blah blah blah free blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 50 dollars blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah xbox live blah blah blah blah blah blah blah free blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 50 dollars blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah xbox live blah blah blah blah blah blah blah free blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 50 dollars blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah xbox live blah blah blah blah blah blah blah free blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 50 dollars blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah xbox live blah blah blah blah blah blah blah free blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 50 dollars blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah xbox live blah blah blah blah blah blah blah free blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 50 dollars blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah xbox live blah blah blah blah blah blah blah free blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 50 dollars blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah xbox live blah blah blah blah blah blah blah free blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 50 dollars blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah xbox live blah blah blah blah blah blah blah free blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 50 dollars blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah xbox live blah blah blah blah blah blah blah free blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 50 dollars blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah xbox live blah blah blah blah blah blah blah free blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 50 dollars blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah xbox live blah blah blah blah blah blah blah free blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 50 dollars blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah xbox live blah blah blah blah blah blah blah free blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 50 dollars blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

[apokalipze2]

This thread is fucking stupid

[Murcielago77]

Id like to add that if you already pay for ur net service to pay for live service ontop of that seems a little crappy.

If anything the service should cost like an anual 8 dollars.

Also some of you should relax this is just a simple debate.

why do you have to pay more to have a cell phones, you already payed for the cell phone and you pay for your house phone, so with your logic, a cell phone bill should be like 30 bucks a year. Also, you already payed for the tv service, why do you have to pay for ppv events too?

[psychobrawler]

Id like to add that if you already pay for ur net service to pay for live service ontop of that seems a little crappy.

If anything the service should cost like an anual 8 dollars.

Also some of you should relax this is just a simple debate.

Yeah, and we should get access to all the pay porn sites too! And IGN Insider. And netflix!! They should be sending my movies free. I already pay to my ISP to look at their site, why the hell should I pay for the movies too??

This generation feels so f-ing derserving. When did people ever start feeling everyone owes them something?

[Indiana]

It's basically whatever the market will bear. I'm sure that currently over 50% of Xbox 360s are online. As more people buy the system the percentage of systems online vs not online will decrease as more non-hardcore gamers buy the system.

MS will either keep charging for the service or go to ad based system.

If MS is charging the money to recoup their costs they should go to a usage based plan. 1 point per hour online or 10 points per hour. I'm not sure what a point equals.

[spoo]

Wait this is all over $4 a month? Who cares it is $4! You can't buy lunch for $4 anymore. Hell I play only a few games a month on live but it is still worth my $4.

[CappyCobra]

You forget that the $4 goes to buying tissues for all of the crybabies complaining about XBL being $50 a year blah blah blah...:lol: People, if you wanna bitch about prices affecting your bottom line, why not start a thread on the outrageous price of gas? Oh wait, the people whom are bitching more than likely can't get behind a steering wheel unless you insert four quarters into it ;)Wait this is all over $4 a month? Who cares it is $4! You can't buy lunch for $4 anymore. Hell I play only a few games a month on live but it is still worth my $4.

[Spoon_si]

$4 is cheap for great service.. If you ever tryed any PS2 games online... you might understand $4 a month goes a long way...

[Pratt75]

XBL is more than worth it for $50 a year in my opinion. Its $50 for a year, some of you act like they asked you for a thousand dollars to play online. This is simple if you don't want to pay for xbl you have that option.

The notion that the xbox live service should be cheaper because you already pay for an internet service is kind of crazy. Does that make any sense? Why should they lower their price because you pay for a service different from theirs?

[$hady]

It's easily worth $50 a year just so you are tied to one name, sure you could pay $8 and change your name but you are still tied to peoples friends list and old feedbacks etc. Plus all the messaging and friends lists are very cool on a console AND the marketplace is great. You can cancel your XBM subscription and just download all the new demos and trailers right from your 360 plus you can waste money on marketplace games! :D

Back on the PS2 everyone would just quit during games or act stupid and team kill and then make new names. I forget how the Dreamcast online was but i'm almost positive it was the same I only played Quake online on my DC plus it wasn't as widespread so not that many stupid people.


Yea the service can be laggy and server problems alot of the time but overall it's good. Madden has been really pissing me off lately you can't connect to your oppenent usually unless both teams use their preselected favorite team, if you change teams it will give you a server error message.

[Michaellvortega]

I would however pay a extra $5-10 a month to play on dedicated PRO servers for Halo or other big titles.

[AshesofWake]

why the hell should I pay for HBO if im already getting cable? pure insanity :rofl:

why should i pay for programs on my computer if i've already paid for the computer :rofl:

why should I pay for light bulbs if I already have electricity :rofl:

[thamaster24]

you obviousl didn't play it then, cuz it's 15 dollars a month. and that's a completely different story...
Nah man I played it for about 1 month straight and its a really good game but I couldn't just pay that much a month for one game. On a budget as it is

[AshesofWake]

Nah man I played it for about 1 month straight and its a really good game but I couldn't just pay that much a month for one game. On a budget as it is


oh so you just played for the free month...nvm...sorry..

[Zoglog]

why the hell should I pay for HBO if im already getting cable? pure insanity :rofl:

why should i pay for programs on my computer if i've already paid for the computer :rofl:

why should I pay for light bulbs if I already have electricity :rofl:

I wasn't aware Xbox live was a MMORPG ;)

let me put it simply for you people who don't seem to get it still.

It has been done in the past for free including game hosting and character data retention. Industry standards is where my concern is at.