Peter Moore on BC - "Nobody's concerened anymore..."

[LinkinPrime]

One thing that Xbox 360 users with hard drives benefit from is backwards compatibility with Xbox 1 titles, but some gamers have been underwhelmed by the volume and quality of games that are compatible on the new system. It doesn't look like much is going to change either, based on Moore's latest comments in the interview. "Nobody is concerned anymore about backwards compatibility. We under promised and over delivered on that. It's a very complicated thing... very complex work. I'm just stunned that we have hundreds of games that are backwards compatible." He added: "more are coming, but at some point, you just go, there's enough, let's move on, or people aren't as worried about a game being backwards compatible - and I like to think we've upheld our end of the bargain in making at least two or maybe three hundred games backwards compat."



This and more at:
http://games.kikizo.com/news/200605/155_p2.asp
(FYI Crappy written article, hard to understand where the questions starts and where the answers come in.)

Moore blows!!!!

[depascal22]

This sucks. Now, I have to keep my Xbox to play half of my library. Looks like it might just be a Wii for me.

[Fire]

Bullshit. I have been waiting on mroe BC other than for games like Sneakers. Now I must keep my Xbox to play most of my games. Grand.

[Staind204]

Come on why are you guys complaining? They gave us All Star Baseball 2003, Barbie, Dark Angel, MLS 2002, Lemony Snickett, Loons, and NHL Blitz 2002. Who cares about games like Morrowind, Prince of Persia 2 and 3, and Doom 3.

[Apossum]

Come on why are you guys complaining? They gave us All Star Baseball 2003, Barbie, Dark Angel, MLS 2002, Lemony Snickett, Loons, and NHL Blitz 2002. Who cares about games like Morrowind, Prince of Persia 2 and 3, and Doom 3.

Don't forget Drake and Chicago Enforcer.

[DomLando]

Wow, why did I have the feeling something like this would happen. Now the only way to play all the 2D fighters on live is with my old Xbox.

[danny-o]

they could at least do all 2-D games.

[mietha]

"under promised and over delivered"? Funny, I distinctly remember them promising EVERY Xbox game. Ah well, I guess Peter Moore sucks at math too. Maybe he meant over promised and under delivered and he's just a fucking moron. I'm pretty sure this is the same guy that was quoted by OXM as saying, in response to the $40 price tag of the memory unit, "you'd be surprised at how many people don't want to save their games." Yeah, I would, if that number is greater than 0.

[KaneRobot]

This sucks. Now, I have to keep my Xbox to play half of my library. Looks like it might just be a Wii for me.

I knew it. I fucking called at the beginning of the year. Makes me think I'm in the wrong field when I can make dead-on predictions like that about these fucking asshole corporations.

Their eventual goal was to "someday try to have every XBox game" which I knew was a crock of shit, but to see them obviously winding it down well UNDER ONE YEAR from launch with minimal effort is disgusting. Lying to the customers like that seriously makes me want to dump my 360. I'll wait until the other stuff arrives, but for now, I won't be spending any more money on XBL so I don't feel stupid later if I wind up selling it.

[Brak]

Moore's right.

[2Fast]

Well Pete, have fun when Joe Retard buys the PS3 instead of the 360 because he can play all his PS2 games on it, whereas he can't do the same with his Xbox games. "Under promised and over delivered" my ass.

[LinkinPrime]

I like to think we've upheld our end of the bargain...

That's what pisses me off the most. They originally said "Best Selling Titles", Barbie and other crap on the list were not best selling titles. To me best selling titles meant platinum hits. If all Platinum Hits were BC atleast they woul have upheld their end. I still love my 360 and have my XBOX to play games on but if they lied about this...

[Fire]

Moore's right.

Obviously there are plenty of people still concerned with BC.

[terribledeli]

Moore's right.

Seconded. Moore is a scum bag, but he's right. Prior to getting my 360, I was causing the world's biggest stink about backwards compatibility. I swore I wouldn't buy one till all 200+ of my games would play on the 360.

After I picked it up, I stopped caring about backwards compatibility and focused on 360 games. I wasn't stupid enough to believe in that "Everything will be backwards compatible" horseshit that was fed around so I kept my original Xbox around to finish Indigo Prophecy and the like.

Microsoft knows that the average fan gave up wanting NCAA 06 Football backwards compatible because NCAA 07 Football for the 360 is on its way.

[I AM WILLIAM H. MACY]

Fuck you, Microsoft and Peter Moore. That's a a fucking lie and you know it. This is there way of weaseling out of future BC updates.

Fuck you.

[Staind204]

Seconded. Moore is a scum bag, but he's right. Prior to getting my 360, I was causing the world's biggest stink about backwards compatibility. I swore I wouldn't buy one till all 200+ of my games would play on the 360.

After I picked it up, I stopped caring about backwards compatibility and focused on 360 games. I wasn't stupid enough to believe in that "Everything will be backwards compatible" horseshit that was fed around so I kept my original Xbox around to finish Indigo Prophecy and the like.

Microsoft knows that the average fan gave up wanting NCAA 06 Football backwards compatible because NCAA 07 Football for the 360 is on its way.


I totally disagree. I have had the 360 since December and have barely touched it. The only games I've played worth a damn are Oblivion ,COD2, GRAW, and Burnout Revenge (which is a port). I would actually be getting some playtime out of the 360 if some decent regular Xbox games worked on it. I certainly still care about backwards compatibility.

[Brak]

How is that a lie? Microsoft stated from the get-go that the 360 wasn't going to be backwards compatable. That's what they call an "under promise".

Then we have people complaining, for the sake of complaining, that the console should be backwards compatable -- when, in my opinion, and others, Microsoft should focus on future technologies -- and Microsoft delivered... not entirely, though, as people don't seem to realize that developers of past titles have to create emulation software for each title for free. And that would be the "over delivered" portion of the deal.

If playing last-generation games is that big of a deal, play them on an Xbox. Backwards compatability, in regards to old software playing on new hardware (which needs software written to do so; unlike PSX to PS2, as it used similar hardware), is a fucking joke -- it sucks. Try playing Call of Cthulhu on your 360; you can't see half of the cut-scenes because it's running off of emulation software.

[seanr1221]

My Xbox is on its last legs, so this totally blows.

fuck you Moore.

[terribledeli]

I totally disagree. I have had the 360 since December and have barely touched it. The only games I've played worth a damn are Oblivion ,COD2, GRAW, and Burnout Revenge (which is a port). I would actually be getting some playtime out of the 360 if some decent regular Xbox games worked on it. I certainly still care about backwards compatibility.

But you're not the rule, you're the exception. Furthermore, you're implying you bought a 360 to play Xbox titles? Why did you buy a 360 then? To play games that were cheaper on the PC and other consoles?

I'm in no way defending Microsoft's shitty turnface on its fanbase, but face the facts...we all knew this was going to happen and it did.

[Staind204]

How is that a lie? Microsoft stated from the get-go that the 360 wasn't going to be backwards compatable. That's what they call an "under promise".

Then we have people complaining, for the sake of complaining, that the console should be backwards compatable -- when, in my opinion, and others, Microsoft should focus on future technologies -- and Microsoft delivered... not entirely, though, as people don't seem to realize that developers of past titles have to create emulation software for each title for free. And that would be the "over delivered" portion of the deal.


Todd Holmdahl, Corporate Vice President of the Xbox Product Group, said that all updates will be free, and available online or via snail mail. That said, there are some notable titles missing from the list, including some personal favorites such as Burnout 3, Tony Hawk Pro-Skater 2 & 3, and more recent games such as Burnout Revenge and Doom 3. Holmdahl, however, indicated that more games will be added in the future, partially based on gamers' requests, and that the company was going to work with game developers to make sure that titles developed for the original Xbox in the future will also be compatible. Holmdahl said that the company eventually plans to support the entire catalog for the original Xbox on the Xbox 360.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051112-5558.html

[Gojtron]

Yeah, I wouldn't care so much if my Xbox was beginning to show signs of death.

[Brak]

Todd Holmdahl, Corporate Vice President of the Xbox Product Group, said that all updates will be free, and available online or via snail mail. That said, there are some notable titles missing from the list, including some personal favorites such as Burnout 3, Tony Hawk Pro-Skater 2 & 3, and more recent games such as Burnout Revenge and Doom 3. Holmdahl, however, indicated that more games will be added in the future, partially based on gamers' requests, and that the company was going to work with game developers to make sure that titles developed for the original Xbox in the future will also be compatible. Holmdahl said that the company eventually plans to support the entire catalog for the original Xbox on the Xbox 360.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051112-5558.html
Ok.

If your mom said she'd give you $20 for mowing the lawn, then gave you $5, would the first offer be voided by the fact that she gave you $5?

In regards to quoting articles, let's look back on Moore's statement. He's not saying there won't be any more BC updates -- in fact, they're working on one currently, if I remember right. Now, I wouldn't doubt if the next one would be the last... but, really... if you bought a 360 to play Xbox games on it, you're a jackoff.

[seanr1221]

Trying to be positive here, but what if the next BC update is a HUGE (50-100 games) one with tons of great games on it? I think if that happened people would be ok with it dying off.

[Monsta Mack]

This sucks. This is the first blow I've felt from MS since the defective batch didn't effect me (yet).

[ryanbph]

Isn't there roughly 150 games available now? If they double that (he said 200 - 300), and add some good ones into that mix it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

[Staind204]

Ok.

If your mom said she'd give you $20 for mowing the lawn, then gave you $5, would the first offer be voided by the fact that she gave you $5?

In regards to quoting articles, let's look back on Moore's statement. He's not saying there won't be any more BC updates -- in fact, they're working on one currently, if I remember right. Now, I wouldn't doubt if the next one would be the last... but, really... if you bought a 360 to play Xbox games on it, you're a jackoff.


He is saying that they aren't going to fulfil their promise to make all Xbox games BC which they DID originally say they would do. I didn't buy a 360 JUST to play Xbox games, but yes that is one of the reasons I picked up the system. If that makes me a jackoff, then so be it. We could sit here and argue about it all day, but nothing changes the fact that M$ is going back on their word to make all games BC.

[SpottedNigel]

Ok.

If your mom said she'd give you $20 for mowing the lawn, then gave you $5, would the first offer be voided by the fact that she gave you $5?

In regards to quoting articles, let's look back on Moore's statement. He's not saying there won't be any more BC updates -- in fact, they're working on one currently, if I remember right. Now, I wouldn't doubt if the next one would be the last... but, really... if you bought a 360 to play Xbox games on it, you're a jackoff.
But if you sold your old xbox due to x360's promised BC, then what are you?

[seanr1221]

Isn't there roughly 150 games available now? If they double that (he said 200 - 300), and add some good ones into that mix it shouldn't be that big of a deal.


That's what Im thinking now. Before we all get upset, it might turn out that only the worst games don't end up on the list.

So I guess we all have to just wait and see.

[Genocidal]

But if you sold your old xbox due to x360's promised BC, then what are you?Fucked.

[KaneRobot]

Seconded. Moore is a scum bag, but he's right. Prior to getting my 360, I was causing the world's biggest stink about backwards compatibility. I swore I wouldn't buy one till all 200+ of my games would play on the 360.

After I picked it up, I stopped caring about backwards compatibility and focused on 360 games.

No offense, but you're exactly the kind of customer Microsoft wants - willing to forgive anything as long as you're happy. That's dangerous thinking - even if it was a feature I didn't CARE about, it would STILL BOTHER ME because they lied to their customers, and the next time around it might be something I actually wanted.

Hell fucking NO they should not be let off the hook on this, people need to raise hell until they are forced to do something, not that I expect it to happen.

I'll wait until the next update - if there IS a next update - to make my final decision, but I've never been more tempted to jump off now while I can still get some good money for my 360.

But you're not the rule, you're the exception.
Looking at this thread, that is obviously not the case.

How is that a lie? Microsoft stated from the get-go that the 360 wasn't going to be backwards compatable. That's what they call an "under promise".
I can guarantee you that Microsoft never once said "the 360 is not backwards compatible" in any official form. What kind of fucked-up, bassackwards marketing would that be? This is the main reason so many people are pissed off now - they made it seem like they would make a sincere effort to get everything on there. I don't think anyone was expecting EVERYTHING, but it's obvious they're not even trying.

Then we have people complaining, for the sake of complaining, that the console should be backwards compatable
They're complaining because they were lied to about the features of their 400 dollar system. Whether you actually care about that feature personally is irrelevant.

This "focusing on future technologies" cop-out is bullshit. Microsoft has near limitless resources. There is absolutely nothing preventing them from working on BC-compliance for as long as they want, and it won't impede the development of Live Anywhere or whatever innovation I'll never use is on tap. By the same point I gave above, I realize it doesn't matter what I think about THAT feature, but that's the argument here - there are a lot of people who want both of these things. Dismissing people wanting backwards compatibility at this point as a "small vocal minority" as Moore (and some people here, apparently) seem to be doing is pretty misguided.

If playing last-generation games is that big of a deal, play them on an Xbox.
That's not really the point here.

[jeffreyjrose]

Isn't there roughly 150 games available now? If they double that (he said 200 - 300), and add some good ones into that mix it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

I think we're currently at 207ish BC out of 573. Can anyone verify my numbers?

[mykevermin]

Ok.

If your mom said she'd give you $20 for mowing the lawn, then gave you $5, would the first offer be voided by the fact that she gave you $5?

In regards to quoting articles, let's look back on Moore's statement. He's not saying there won't be any more BC updates -- in fact, they're working on one currently, if I remember right. Now, I wouldn't doubt if the next one would be the last... but, really... if you bought a 360 to play Xbox games on it, you're a jackoff.

Well, I bought a 360 to play 360 games, and with the expectation that I would eventually be able to play my Xbox catalog on it as well. Roughly 33% of my games are playable on my 360. Am I happy with that? Not at all. Have I been patient waiting for BC updates? Somewhat, but not entirely.

Like others, I had faith in the statement that they would eventually support every Xbox title, seeing as how that article you're chiding came from a MS rep's mouth.

Y'know, as much as I want to loathe Sony for their $600 albatross of a console, it has a decade and three generations of fully compatible software for it. With the Wii being BC as well with the GC, BC is the norm. Microsoft promised, and failed to deliver on, BC. Fuck them, and fuck Peter Moore, for failing to do as promised. Why not just tell us that True Fantasy Live Online is being made for 360 and cancel it later, if only to piss people off more?

Y'know, I'm *SURE* that there is some tracking service that shows what number/percentage of 360 users downloaded BC software. I'm also sure they're basing their attempts to add BC titles based off of this data. I'm also sure that it's flawed data, because I don't imagine there are many people downloading boot files for Barbie's Buttfucking Horse. Such data would be full of "selection bias," as it goes.

[mmn]

Ugh, whatever. I haven't played an Xbox game since I got my 360. If there's anything out current gen I REALLY want, I'll just get it for my PS2. I've played all the Xbox exclusives I wanted to.

[psychobrawler]

I'm not thrilled with the mindset, but I also have to agree that he's right. They made most customers happy when Halo and Halo 2 were BC. Beyond that, only the early adopters and most hardcore really cared. And most of the games that we here are hoping for - say Otogi, or some great obscure title - didn't sell enough to really have people crying (I think that game sold around 30,000 copies). I have a few BC games I haven't gotten to yet such as Call of Cthulu, Chaos Theory, and Half Life 2. But honestly, the games have been good enough and frequent enough for the 360 releases that I haven't had time to mess with them.

The bottem line is that if you look outside of places like game forums, most people probably don't care or even realize that they can play many of the xbox games out there. Most people bought a 360 because they wanted next gen, and that's what they're playing.

None of that justifies MS giving up on their commitment, but if they come to a point now where they say we've tried and we just can't get any more of these games to work, I'd really care less. And MS knows this.

[psychobrawler]

But if you sold your old xbox due to x360's promised BC, then what are you?

Gullible?

[KaneRobot]

Y'know, as much as I want to loathe Sony for their $600 albatross of a console, it has a decade and three generations of fully compatible software for it. With the Wii being BC as well with the GC, BC is the norm. Microsoft promised, and failed to deliver on, BC.

Bingo. I meant to mention that eariler but it slipped through, but it's another valid point. Backwards compatibility has been the industry standard for a enough years now to where it's pretty inexcusable not to offer it. The Revolution does it with the GC (and more, but that's more of an XBLA-level thing), and the PS3 does it with their previous offering as well.

I sure as shit won't buy a PS3 on launch day, and I'd rather not buy one at all - but if I dropped my 360 this year and got a Revolution to hold me over then nabbed a PS3 later on...the number of potential games I would be able to play would completely dwarf the 360...and the only blame for that goes to Microsoft.



That's enough for me for now. I'm probably just as pissed off at myself for holding out a tiny bit of hope that Microsoft would actually deliver on something like that as I am it actually happening. That's fine though, my wallet will do my talking from here on.

[Chacrana]

It's annoying to say the least. I'm not devastated or anything especially since I still have my original Xbox, but it would've been nice to be able to ditch the giant sonuvabitch Xbox and just play everything on the 360. BC is important. Sony and Nintendo have it so MS really looks like they're lacking when they fail to offer a feature that a lot of people want. I don't care what Moore believes, MS seriously underdelivered with BC.

[ryanbph]

I never remember then saying that all the games will be B/C. IIRC, it started out that it would be B/C, then none will be B/C then the top games will be B/C. That was the last statement I remember about B/C. It would be nice if most/all games are B/C, but besides halo 2, I have never played a B/C game on my 360, or my ps2. Once I beat/stop playing a game, I am usually done with it and don't care to play it again. I know some have other views on it, but saying that B/C is necessary for the 360 due to comments in this thread is sort of narrow minded.

I have several non gaming message board friends who own 360's. None of them have any interest in B/C. Most of them don't even bother firing up halo 2 from time to time. I have 1 friend that is interested in B/C, but he doesn't own a 360 yet, and hasn't owned a console since the nes was out.

[Staind204]

I think backwards compatibility is a huge selling point. I recently picked up a PS2 and I've played more PSX games on it than PS2 ones. When a console is BC it allows the user to play MANY more games for the system. This is a huge selling point to me.

[ryanbph]

How reliable is the source of this interview? It isn't a site that I recognize, but that really isn't saying much.

If there are games that you really want to be B/C, email msft about it. There spring B/C update (while very small) were games that consumers had demanded. The soon to be released dashboard update have several updates that 360 owners wanted. In interviews with major nelson for the B/C and the dashboard updates, both interviewee's stated that feedback from the community is what drove them in there decisions. Don't bitch here, bitch to them about it. They appear to be listening

[chargeup45]

I'm concerned, and I'd rather not have to rebuy most of my games on PS2/3 because of this issue. At the very least get Psychonauts and Oddworld Stranger on the list.

Otherwise, what are some of the notable exclusive games missing?

[daphatty]

Come on people. You should have seen this coming. Once Microsoft announced the switch from Intel CPU (Xbox) to PowerPC CPUs (360) there was NO WAY backwards compatibility would be easily achieved. Hell, the only reason Sony was able to do it on the PS2 was because they found a way to make the PS1 into a single chip! Even then, they weren't 100%.

My sympathies go out to you guys but really, you should have seen this coming.

[Rusty Ghia]

Does this piss me off? Yes...but I will get over it. I bought the 360 with the hopes that I would be able to play some Xbox games that I missed out on. Too bad the only game that I wanted to play that is backwards compatible is Crimson Skies. I'm bummed that they never added support for Panzer Dragoon Orta, or MechAssault. But I'm especially angry that I'll never get to try Steel Battalion - not that I held out much hope that the 360 would ever be able to play it, since it requires that outrageous controller.

[rsigley]

would people respect this decision more if he told the truth?

something like, we envisioned to make all the popular games BC but after a while we realized it would be too hard and shifted our focus to making other things

[dastly75]

Oh well, the only xbox game I play anymore is Halo 2

[Tha Xecutioner]

Haven't even tried an Xbox game on my 360 since Fable. Even then, it was terribly cut up..and not just cut scenes. And I back Brak when he said at first that BC might not even happen. So, in fact, Moore was pretty much dead on. I think they did over-deliver, although I see why people would want more games in the next update. I agree that the next one will probably be the last update, and, if you bought your 360 solely for playing old games and maybe a couple next gen games, that's bogus. If you bought the 360 MAINLY for next gen games and you figured BC would be a little extra on the side, then what are you complaining about? You still got what you wanted in the beginning.

[GuilewasNK]

Time to go Wii, Wii, Wii all the way home. :lol:

The 360's half-assed attempts at BC was really the only thing that really concerned me about the system. I feel for the people who traded in the original Xboxes.

[Chris in Cali]

I'm still impatiently waiting for these games to make the list....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/XXChris805XX/BACKWARDSGAMES.jpg


Not to mention some of the games that have made the cut are near unplayable.

[mykevermin]

Time to go Wii, Wii, Wii all the way home. :lol:

The 360's half-assed attempts at BC was really the only thing that really concerned me about the system. I feel for the people who traded in the original Xboxes.

I put mine away, because it's modded (OOOH! BAD MEE!!) and didn't want to trade it in, but rather sell it to someone who would use it, and I think part of me saw this coming. I still have it if I need it, I suppose - but I really don't wanna plug that much more shit into my telly, or even keep it for that matter.

[Rozz]

Moore's right.

Obviously he's not. If he was then there woulden't be people complaining right now.

I would only consider getting a 360 if there was backword compatability. I'm not interested in the 360 games but it would be nice for a new system to support my old library. I loved BC on the PS2.

Also, if Microsoft promised they should deliver.

[DesertEagleXIX]

Sounds more like Microsoft overpromised and underdelivered.

Saying, "C'mon guys, you'd knew this would happen" is bullshit. I bought my 360 knowing over a hundred games were BC compatible, and they were working on more. Seven months later 15 or so titles were added.

Saying "nobody cares" is also PR bullshit. In these forums, already 50 people care. I bet a good percentage of 360 owener care.

[62t]

the thing is, mainstream gamers are not going to care about this. for those who are interst in the xbox probably already own one. The only losers are the CAG who are waiting for the X360 to have 100% BC, and MS knows very well they are small in number.

[Tha Xecutioner]

Someone explain to me the logic behind spending 300-400 bucks on a system to play games which you have been playing on another system for years?

[Vinny]

Someone explain to me the logic behind spending 300-400 bucks on a system to play games which you have been playing on another system for years?

Well, seeing as how the Xbox is bigger than the 360... I wouldn't mind having it out of the way.;-)

I don't care to have the entire Xbox library backwards compatible with the 360 but when they shit like Yourself Fitness, The Terminator, Drake but not PD Orta or Otogi 1/2 (three of the finest Xbox games IMO) I have to say WTF is up with that MS?

[GuilewasNK]

Someone explain to me the logic behind spending 300-400 bucks on a system to play games which you have been playing on another system for years?

I doubt that anyone buys a new system solely to play old games. It's nice to be able to play older games while waiting for AAA titles like Halo 3 (and the big titles may be all they want). At least that way a person won't feel like they paid $400 for a paperweight.

Besides, it isn't much different from expecting Win98 and ME games to play correctly on a WinXP system. I won't even mention DOS games.

The problem is that if you say you are going to do BC either do it right or not at all that way people won't trade their systems in and have to buy them again.

[Grave_Addiction]

Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[daphatty]

Saying, "C'mon guys, you'd knew this would happen" is bullshit.

It's only bullshit to those of you who bought into the bullshit itself and now feel like you got burned. I stand by my original argument. If you didn't pay attention to the signs that BC would be near impossible then you have no one to blame but yourself. Ok, MS should shoulder some blame but it was YOUR responsibility to be an informed consumer.

[zewone]

If you thought they were gonna keep working on old stuff this late in the game = :lol:

Think foward, not backward.

[Ultimate Matt X]

Isn't Moore a marketing guy? Does he even know what the backwards compatibility team is up to?

I hope we see more games, but if not I'm at least comforted knowing the hackers will figure it out at some point. :)

[mykevermin]

It's only bullshit to those of you who bought into the bullshit itself and now feel like you got burned. I stand by my original argument. If you didn't pay attention to the signs that BC would be near impossible then you have no one to blame but yourself. Ok, MS should shoulder some blame but it was YOUR responsibility to be an informed consumer.

by 'informed consumer' you mean 'skeptic,' correct? Or, perhaps, 'one who knows that MS would rescind their promise to make all titles BC'?

[mr ryles]

reggie>moore

[Tha Xecutioner]

by 'informed consumer' you mean 'skeptic,' correct? Or, perhaps, 'one who knows that MS would rescind their promise to make all titles BC'?

Or one that knows it's surprising that Microsoft put out as many BC games as they did.

[seanr1221]

Eh, honestly I bet most 360 buyers only care if they can play Halo/Halo 2 and the three GTAs until Halo 3 and GTAIV come out anyway.

[Kapwanil]

It wasn't necessarily a huge decision in my eventual buying of a 360 since I haven't thrown out any system I've ever owned as of yet, but the extra space would have been nice.

Oh well. When the initial list was uninspiring and the follow-ups had only a few important, worthwhile XBox titles on there it seemed fairly unlikely that anything major was going to happen unless a massive update was in order. Here's hoping that the team can at least pop out a few more quality titles onto the BC list before giving up.

[Duo_Maxwell]

It's only bullshit to those of you who bought into the bullshit itself and now feel like you got burned. I stand by my original argument. If you didn't pay attention to the signs that BC would be near impossible then you have no one to blame but yourself. Ok, MS should shoulder some blame but it was YOUR responsibility to be an informed consumer.

I empathize with your point, but actually MS shoulders nearly all the blame. There's 2 big holes in your argument. One is that you said "near impossible", meaning it actually is possible to make every game (or at least the vast majority) of original xbox titles playable on the 360 even with different processors. Granted some games have emulation glitches, but at least you can play them. MS really just decided to quit on the project (or maybe planned to all along), I don't think it really had anything to do with it being "impossible", impractial, but not impossible. The second hole is that they basically lied to their consumers. We were told there'd the most popular titles available for BC... untrue. We we told there'd be regular updates... untrue. Finally we were told that after they had sometime to work on it nearly every game would be BC, that no seems untrue as well (did they even make through half?).

So to say we should've seen it coming and shoulder alot of blame when it was technically possible and we were told they were doing it is not enirely fair.

[TheRock88]

I was hoping they would at least make a few more games BC before deciding to drop it. Looks like the only way to play Shenmue II now is back on the old Xbox.

[DesertEagleXIX]

Someone explain to me the logic behind spending 300-400 bucks on a system to play games which you have been playing on another system for years?

It makes sence if you've spend over $500 in games, for your old system, that is about to take a dump on you.

[akilshohen]

past the sports games, everything should be compatitible. All the platnium hits should be compatitible, really no excuse for them to not be on the list unless it's something like MK:D. Also what about a major game coming out like MK:A? I'm gonna get a 360 eventually, but they should at least focus on making the newer major titles work because that's a lot of missed sales.
Regardless of what Moore says, even a more casual gamer would perhaps pick up a game on XBOX they missed and remembered.
Also is there any 2-d games on that list? Those should of probably been in the first batch.

[psychobrawler]

If MS had said up front that there was no BC, would any of you not have bought a 360?

[ngamer007]

Whoever says BC is not important, and is only a gimmick. Go play some of your favorite Xbox games (the ones that are compatible) in high definition with full anti-aliasing and get back to me.

Halo 2, which I thought couldn't get any better: did.

It's not my main focus, but there are still a couple Xbox games I bought in sales and never got around to playing. Or games I'd love to replay in high-def. Sure, 360 games are going to be what I will play most, but backwards compatibility is still very important.

[graf1k]

I'd probably be pissed off if I actually played Xbox games anymore. Fortunately, I've had my fun with most of the good ones, and there sure as shit not a whole slew of new ones coming.

[lordxixor101]

I find it funny how many people in here are arguing that BC is no big deal. In all honesty, it isn't. I'll give everyone this point. If you really want to play the games, you can get an Xbox. But, as many have pointed out, this isn't the point.

They promised to attempt to get Every Xbox Game to work on the 360. Now, giving up a year into the systems life doesn't sound like a strong attempt. It also ticks me off when Moore says he over delivered. No you didn't, you underdelivered, don't rip me off and then say I should be thrilled by it.

Now, I haven't bought a 360 yet, so this isn't a huge deal to me. I still want to get one. But, what if MS just came out and said that no new games would work with their wireless controller that many gamers have. So, even though you expected it to work with future games, oh well. Then, they came out and said, hey 100 games work with the controller, we overdelivered on our promise. Plus, Obvlion works with it, and that's the only game anyone cares about anyway.

If this happened, there would be outrage. Same here.

It'll make me take any "promises" MS makes with their systems with a grain of salt, until they deliver.

[DCriminal]

No you didn't, you underdelivered, don't rip me off and then say I should be thrilled by it.

Exactly. I am reminded of a quote from Mr. Show: "Dont shit in my mouth and call it a sunday."

For Moore to say that they "overdelivered" is complete and total BS.

[Ultimate Matt X]

I don't hold any ill will towards Microsoft as I thought backwards compatibility could be a joke, but it'll definitely be something I consider when the next round of systems come out and I have the option of buying a game for Sony or Nintendo's system. Hell, I don't even have a PS2 right now, but I'm starting to think about getting PS2 games over Xbox games for whenever I do because of backwards compatibility.

And I think that's ultimately why Microsoft should care. When you have two competitors out there and one that is clearly ahead of you (Sony) they might want to make sure there system isn't lacking a feature the other has. Especially one that I'm sure isn't all that costly as far as resources goes.

Also, is there anything about emulating on the 360 that makes it harder than computer emulation? Everyone talks about the different processors, but that doesn't seem to be a problem on computer emulators. Is it just that the 360 isn't enough of an increase in power over the xbox as say my computer over a ps1 or is there something in the design that's different?

[ksuwild25]

Not a big deal to me. I'm glad they are improving the 360 experience with the improved dashboard features, not to mention other stuff they are working on, rather than wasting time with games that are fully playable on another system. If you want the Xbox experience keep your Xbox.

[Rozz]

"Backward-compatibility is not the reason people buy a new system," said David Hufford, Microsoft Xbox group product manager. "The perception is that it is significant. We've put all our energy into new titles, but since our consumers have asked for it...we've made it a goal to make all titles backward-compatible."

Original Microsoft quote.

[GuilewasNK]

"Backward-compatibility is not the reason people buy a new system," said David Hufford, Microsoft Xbox group product manager. "The perception is that it is significant. We've put all our energy into new titles, but since our consumers have asked for it...we've made it a goal to make all titles backward-compatible."

Original Microsoft quote.

Yep. That is my whole point. Saying something like that without following through can erode the brand loyalty they were trying to build.

[ryanbph]

"..we've made it a goal to make all titles backward-compatible."

Original Microsoft quote.

Taking one person at msft saying that it is a goal to have all titles b/c and it becomes gospel. So that statement rules out the other ones they had made about b/c. Numerous times, it was reported that B/C would not happen. It was then reported numerous times that B/C would only be for top selling xbox games. Otogi and psychaunauts were not top selling games. Yes they were great, but far from top selling. I still haven't read how reliable the interviews site was. The interview was setup rather shitty, and I question on how reliable there info is.

[Number83]

I have had my 360 since launch and do you know how many times I wanted to play an Original XBOX game in it? ZERO. Why, because my original XBOX (A launch XBOX with the Thompson Drive), is on the shelf right below it. 100% BC for me. Now I understand the anger for those who traded theirs in for a 360, but eventually the original XBOX will be cut to $50 and you can pick one up. BC issue resolved.

[doubledown]

The only game I ever wanted to play was Halo2, and I can. I still have my XBOX, but it collects dust now.

[KaneRobot]

Taking one person at msft saying that it is a goal to have all titles b/c and it becomes gospel.
He's not the only one who gave the impression that their goals were to make every game BC.

Numerous times, it was reported that B/C would not happen.
The only times that was "reported" were way before launch, when they hadn't even made an announcement one way or another.

It was then reported numerous times that B/C would only be for top selling xbox games.
This is the one I tend to look at the most as legitimate, because it was their E3 announcement. However, when you take in combination with the multiple "we want to have every game eventually" follow-up statements, it paints a pretty strong picture to the potential consumer...especially because there are several poorly-selling titles on there and several top-selling titles missing.



THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT IS DEBATABLE. Microsoft absolutely deceived the customers about this. Personal feelings about backwards compatibility are only half the problem here. The fact that we were lied to is just as notable here. There ARE a large percentage of gamers who feel backwards compatibility is important, and want to see this BC promise all the way through (at least to a reasonable conclusion, not the shoddy-ass "effort" they've made so far).

But don't take my word for it. (http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/peter-moore/poll-backwards-compatability-do-you-care-177605.php)

To those who are annoyed with this - keep loading those BC games into your 360. If big brother is really watching maybe they'll get the picture. But I doubt it.

[ryanbph]

email them...they appeared to have listened to games people wanted in the spring b/c update, and the improvements on the dashboard in the upcoming update are things the community wanted.

[ryanbph]

kane you took a poll from a gaming website. I find it hard to believe the majority of 360 owners are avid readers of gaming websites.

[Tha Xecutioner]

The fact is that BC was NOT going to happen at the beginning, MS realized the marketing they could get with it, started it up, said that their goal was to get the big name Xbox games on the BC list, then that shot up to the goal of having every game BC. Problem is, with the new system that the 360 runs off of, it was VERY hard to develop the emulation software to get all of the older Xbox titles (big and small) to work correctly on the 360. Now they are faced with a dilemna: do you focus mainly on getting these old and forgotten games on this next gen system (that - most likely - less than 1/3 of the 360 owners actually care about) or do you continue on with patches, updates, and newer, better games to compete with the other next gen systems? If they focused mainly on these old games, there would be a majority of people upset about dashboard updates, Marketplace updates, patches for games, and the like. Either way they choose will cause some sort of backlash, and they chose the path with less damage. Unfortunately that hurts a lot of people on this site, but, in general, CAGs are a minority. You never know, maybe after the PS3 tanks then they will have a chance to finish what they started with BC. But, for right now, they are saying that the future of next gen is more important than the past. Do you guys not agree? With you rather play Shenmue II on the 360 or Halo 3, a new Splinter Cell, Street Fighter II, Dead Rising, FEAR, Unreal Tournament, etc.?

Point is, Microsoft didn't hand you a ticket or piece of paper or print some large picture on the back of each box promising BC on every single game..they stated that it was a goal they were aiming for. They failed on that goal (at least for now). That doesn't mean Microsoft doesn't care for it's customers, it doesn't mean they only care about money, and it doesn't mean they are liars.



THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT IS DEBATABLE.
The numerous pages on this already say otherwise :)



But don't take my word for it. (http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/peter-moore/poll-backwards-compatability-do-you-care-177605.php)
I can bet you that most of the people voting for that are like CAGs and that they vote purely for the fact of shoving it back at MS (because of what Moore said), you won't see the general population of 360 owners vote in that poll. And half of the comments I looked at were talking about DS, Gamecube, or Wii systems.

[Roufuss]

Peter Moore on BC: "We already have your money, only some internet dorks remember our promises, and people who don't have a 360 are only looking to the future. Screw you guys, I'm going home"

[Tha Xecutioner]

and people who don't have a 360 are only looking to the future.


Uhh??? It seems (especially on here) that only people WITH 360s care about the future games more than the old (or don't care at all).

[Roufuss]

Uhh??? It seems (especially on here) that only people WITH 360s care about the future games more than the old (or don't care at all).

I'm saying that people who don't have a 360 and are interested in buying one are only looking to see what future 360 games are coming out that appeal to them, and they aren't looking to see what Xbox games are BC when making their decision.

They are buying a 360 for the 360 games (present and future), not because of BC, generally.

[asianxcore]

as others have already said, I knew something like this would happen.

either they would add a small amount of titles here and there, or just wait until people get fed up and not care. I bought an Xbox 1 a whole lot later than most people did, so there are a lot of games out there I've yet to try. I'd forgive them if they threw Panzer Dragoon and Mercenaries on that BC list :)

[Duo_Maxwell]

The fact is that BC was NOT going to happen at the beginning, MS realized the marketing they could get with it, started it up, said that their goal was to get the big name Xbox games on the BC list, then that shot up to the goal of having every game BC. Problem is, with the new system that the 360 runs off of, it was VERY hard to develop the emulation software to get all of the older Xbox titles (big and small) to work correctly on the 360. Now they are faced with a dilemna: do you focus mainly on getting these old and forgotten games on this next gen system (that - most likely - less than 1/3 of the 360 owners actually care about) or do you continue on with patches, updates, and newer, better games to compete with the other next gen systems? If they focused mainly on these old games, there would be a majority of people upset about dashboard updates, Marketplace updates, patches for games, and the like. Either way they choose will cause some sort of backlash, and they chose the path with less damage. Unfortunately that hurts a lot of people on this site, but, in general, CAGs are a minority. You never know, maybe after the PS3 tanks then they will have a chance to finish what they started with BC. But, for right now, they are saying that the future of next gen is more important than the past. Do you guys not agree? With you rather play Shenmue II on the 360 or Halo 3, a new Splinter Cell, Street Fighter II, Dead Rising, FEAR, Unreal Tournament, etc.?


Wow, just wow... How long have you played video games? BC has nothing, I repeat nothing to do with us getting a new splinter Cell, FEAR, Dead Rising, or even Halo 3. There's something in the gaming industry called developers, see they make the games. And guess what... The team working on BC (if there even was one) is not anyway that i'm aware of effected by developers working for other copanies or even one like Bungie working for MS. It's a totally different group of people. They may seek some development materials from others, but hardly anything that would hold another company back. As for Live updates, I'm not sure the same team is responsible (I don't think they are though), but even so they could hire more people for the task if need be. Bottomline is BC doesn't take a toll on other departments or companies like you seem to think it does.


Point is, Microsoft didn't hand you a ticket or piece of paper or print some large picture on the back of each box promising BC on every single game..they stated that it was a goal they were aiming for. They failed on that goal (at least for now). That doesn't mean Microsoft doesn't care for it's customers, it doesn't mean they only care about money, and it doesn't mean they are liars.


Now you are just being dense. Last I checked telling your consumers one thing and then half a year later coming out and saying something to the contrary is lying to them. Even if they referred to it as only a goal, it was a goal they presented to their consumers and said they'd try to achieve. Now we hear one of their execs say that they "underpromised and overdelivered". Funny usually the promise of something that is later broken gets an apology not a denial of said promise (or goal if you want to call it that the end result is the same). Look at it this way, if I promised to give you $100 in the next say 200 days. Then I only send a total of $20 for a couple weeks, you ask me what's up this and I respond by sayingl I "overdelievered" on my end, you'd probably say I lied and commited mail fraud.



I can bet you that most of the people voting for that are like CAGs and that they vote purely for the fact of shoving it back at MS (because of what Moore said), you won't see the general population of 360 owners vote in that poll. And half of the comments I looked at were talking about DS, Gamecube, or Wii systems.

I could care less about shoving it back in their face, I'd like what I was told was going to happen to actually happen though. To be honest, I would be far less upset had they actually tried, but they did not. They found it easier to give up than make good on thier goals and promises to the consumer. While nothing will come from our bitching about this i'm sure, if you ask a lot of execs what's important for a successful business, at least two responses will be completing your goals and have a client base than trust in you. You're right about one thing though, MS did fail, at both of those things.

[trq]

I have had my 360 since launch and do you know how many times I wanted to play an Original XBOX game in it? ZERO. Why, because my original XBOX (A launch XBOX with the Thompson Drive), is on the shelf right below it. 100% BC for me. Now I understand the anger for those who traded theirs in for a 360, but eventually the original XBOX will be cut to $50 and you can pick one up. BC issue resolved.

Sure, but then it's fair to add the price of a current Xbox to that of the 360, when you're choosing between a 360 and a PS3. That fair?

Besides, all you're really arguing is that the people who ALREADY have a 360 don't care about BC. I suspect Microsoft might want to try to sell the console to the people who DON'T have one yet. And considering the evidence indicates that the more hardcore gamers DO care, while the mainstreamers don't, and it's the hardcore who tend to be the early adopters ... well, you want to stay on the good side of the people who make your launch successful.

Further, issues like BC are relevant when people make the choice of which version of multiplatform games to get. The Xbox had the advantage of better hardware, and that let it often narrow the gap in sales with the PS2 and its larger installed base. Now it doesn't have the hardware advantage, so giving up something even as small-seeming as BC ("Hrm. Should I get the version of the game that looks better and I'll be able to give to my grandkids if I so desire, or the slightly less attractive one that could very well be a worthless hunk of plastic in 5 years?") is just stupid, flat out.

[Sporadic]

Now you are just being dense. Last I checked telling your consumers one thing and then half a year later coming out and saying something to the contrary is lying to them. Even if they referred to it as only a goal, it was a goal they presented to their consumers and said they'd try to achieve. Now we hear one of their execs say that they "underpromised and overdelivered". Funny usually the promise of something that is later broken gets an apology not a denial of said promise (or goal if you want to call it that the end result is the same). Look at it this way, if I promised to give you $100 in the next say 200 days. Then I only send a total of $20 for a couple weeks, you ask me what's up this and I respond by sayingl I "overdelievered" on my end, you'd probably say I lied and commited mail fraud.

Come on now, they originally said that top-selling games were going to be backward compatible. We ended up with 207 overall to date.

That is actually pretty amazing considering what they had to overcome to emulate original Xbox games on the 360.

Last time I checked, Peter Moore never announced that they they were no longer going to add new games to the list just that it isn't a top-priority anymore. Which is perfectly understandable now that the 360 has been out for 6+ months now.

[Duo_Maxwell]

Come on now, they originally said that top-selling games were going to be backward compatible. We ended up with 207 overall to date.

That is actually pretty amazing considering what they had to overcome to emulate original Xbox games on the 360.

Last time I checked, Peter Moore never announced that they they were no longer going to add new games to the list just that it isn't a top-priority anymore. Which is perfectly understandable now that the 360 has been out for 6+ months now.

Did you even get my point, he's saying they overdelivered to us, which not only inaccruate but just down-right wrong. Speaking of which, of those 207 how many are actually top sellers? Better yet how many are even titles MS has deemed "Platinum Hits"? How many are sequels or operate on the same engine as other games on the list? The answer to the first 2 is "not too many and definately not the majority", the answer to the third is "suprisingly alot". If this was their top priority til now don't you think they could've at least got say maybe 60 new games on there since launch. That's about ten games a month, sure it may be tough, but if it was their top priority then what was stopping them? It sure wasn't lack of capital and they seemed to get a over 150 out by launch time and I doubt that really took anymore than a year (they didn't even talk about BC til right before launch). In reality it never was their top priority, not even close. How many times was the thing even updated, like 3? I don't see how they have overdelivered on their claim now and don't see how they trickle out fewer games at any slower of a pace. Are we going to get only 2 BC games added every 3 months now instead of 4? Awesome I'm totally hyped we'll be getting less, lemme mark my calendar, oh wait that's right the updates are totally random so I can't...

[Sporadic]

Did you even get my point, he's saying they overdelivered to us, which not only inaccruate but just down-right wrong.

I do get your point, except I agree with him. Going from top-selling games,which many people were guessing (before launch) would only be 30-40, to 207 to date is overdelivering on what they originally said.

Speaking of which, of those 207 how many are actually top sellers? Better yet how many are even titles MS has deemed "Platinum Hits"? How many are sequels or operate on the same engine as other games on the list? The answer to the first 2 is "not too many and definately not the majority", the answer to the third is "suprisingly alot".

That is because they are emulating the original Xbox hardware. Once you get one working it could open up many others.

Did you even get my point, he's saying they overdelivered to us, which not only inaccruate but just down-right wrong. Speaking of which, of those 207 how many are actually top sellers? Better yet how many are even titles MS has deemed "Platinum Hits"? How many are sequels or operate on the same engine as other games on the list? The answer to the first 2 is "not too many and definately not the majority", the answer to the third is "suprisingly alot". If this was their top priority til now don't you think they could've at least got say maybe 60 new games on there since launch. That's about ten games a month, sure it may be tough, but if it was their top priority then what was stopping them? It sure wasn't lack of capital and they seemed to get a over 150 out by launch time and I doubt that really took anymore than a year (they didn't even talk about BC til right before launch). In reality it never was their top priority, not even close. How many times was the thing even updated, like 3? I don't see how they have overdelivered on their claim now and don't see how they trickle out fewer games at any slower of a pace. Are we going to get only 2 BC games added every 3 months now instead of 4? Awesome I'm totally hyped we'll be getting less, lemme mark my calendar, oh wait that's right the updates are totally random so I can't...


I don't believe it wasn't their top priority since launch.

Even if it was expecting 10 games a month is a little much.

Once you start digging into the Xbox library the harder it becomes to get other titles working. With new games using tricks to push the Xbox harder then it was suppose to go and some older games using their own engines.

I still think that even getting 200 working is absolutely amazing.

[sj41]

Fuck you MS! I can't believe you would do this to me! How am I supposed to play my 4 year old games now? This is outrageous for you to not deliver on a goal (not a promise which is what everyone is claiming it to be, but a tough goal that they wanted to try to achieve in a reasonable manner). Fuck you! Does MS really expect me to play new games for the system I bought, so that I could play next gen games? That's bullshit!

[Skylander7]

I saw this coming as well, being that I consider myself a PC enthusiast (however, my interest in computing is representative of a small fraction of the total population; therefore, I can understand why many people are shocked by this). Two reasons: the processor (PowerPC), and the change in graphics chipsets (from NVidia to ATI).

However, Microsoft blatantly market BC as a feature of its product. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. It's false advertising at its finest (we promise you this, you get a half ass representation of it). The 360 has been well supported so far with frequent updates and listening to user feedback (as well as recognizing a product defect, and fully repairing and replacing products free of charge- something Sony did not do). Being the large and powerful software manufacturer that it is, it kind of offends me that MS will not devote the resources to fully keep its word.

People say offbeat games like Panzer Dragoon Orta or Otogi sold poorly.. but don't underestimate the power of word of mouth. They may have sold poorly initially, but nominal statistics do not track the sales of Ebay or game retailers to sell used copies (and I sometimes wonder if clearanced games are often included in those statistics, as price points ARE a major influence upon unit sales).

That's another point.. Xbox games are alot cheaper and more accessible as a whole than 360 games with the higher mark-up. It wouldn't surprise me if this decision was partly influenced by a desire on the part of Microsoft to drive up 360 software sales by eliminating internal competition from its older product further down the product life cycle.

I would say read between the lines here. It wasn't just one Microsoft rep. who said BC would be realized, it was the company and its marketing push as a whole. This wasn't some bald douche bag wearing an Xbox lanyard who "inspects" retailers staking this claim, this was the full marketing blitz pre-launch of the console at a prior E3 and in various gaming magazines.

This is another sad case of the end-user getting the shaft, much as many PC gamers feel when they buy a new game and it doesn't work until a patch comes out. Only this time, the shaft doesn't have lube and they kill the hopes for the patch. I bought my 360 with hopes that I could realize the company's claims of "your original Xbox games look and sound better on the 360!"

Is it also not confusing to some that PC games that were ported to the Xbox and fully functional on both ATI and NVidia chipsets for the PC (Doom 3 and Deus Ex: Invisible Wars) can not be emulated on the 360 (unless it's a processor issue)? In this case, although I am definitely not an expert programmer, should require the least of effort. There were claims earlier in the year that Xbox titles would be fully downloadable in the future.. not only does that claim also seem false, but also alienating many great games that may have become inaccessible to gamers due to sales (Orta, Oddworld, etc.).

One poster earlier in the thread said that this opens the way for modding and emulation. I totally agree, as they will bitch and sue in 5 years when we are playing Orta on our PC (or, if Sony has its way, the "supposedly superior to PC's" PS3). It also supports the point that if a company dances the thin line of abandonware or no longer supports a format after abandoning the consumer, where do they have the right to prosecute users for finding their own means to use a product that the manufacturer discontinued and no longer sells for profit?

This sickens me greatly. I understand that some find this a miniscule announcement, but to those who have used this format for years and are left hoping that their console with a historically poor reliability lives on for a few more years are up in arms. It does matter.. it was a selling point that was falsified. This may have been a business decision, but it is one that consumers will likely remember. That $400 white box no longer feels like it was worth the full price, when BC has now become an industry norm.

Some of us can't afford to pay $1000 for 10 game bundles.. some of us actually value the dollar that has to be stretched farther and farther in these times, as inflation grows like a potential gastric bypass patient in a pizza buffet. Some of us like to play games that are good enough to play through more than once (believe it or not, something that the holy grail of game companies- the casual gamer- commonly practices). They planned this all along, and teased us like that hot chick in high school that just wanted a ride home from school and wanted to bum a cigarette.

[Tha Xecutioner]

Wow, just wow... How long have you played video games? BC has nothing, I repeat nothing to do with us getting a new splinter Cell, FEAR, Dead Rising, or even Halo 3. There's something in the gaming industry called developers, see they make the games. And guess what... The team working on BC (if there even was one) is not anyway that i'm aware of effected by developers working for other copanies or even one like Bungie working for MS. It's a totally different group of people. They may seek some development materials from others, but hardly anything that would hold another company back. As for Live updates, I'm not sure the same team is responsible (I don't think they are though), but even so they could hire more people for the task if need be. Bottomline is BC doesn't take a toll on other departments or companies like you seem to think it does.
When did I say that Halo 3 comes from the same people who work in BC??? Look at what you're quoting before you click the button and comment on it. The Microsoft team does handle things such as updates (E3 anyone?) and is still the lead in the BC project. What I said was that MICROSOFT had a decision...whether to pursue the company's interest in the past or future. And yes, they do have a say in future games because the developers have to meet some restrictions such as dates in their making of a game. I never said one thing about BC taking tolls on other companies as well, all I was aiming for was to get the point across that MICROSOFT knew it wasn't in their best interests to pursue this ultimate goal of 100% BC because they had new, stiff competition thanks to E3. They know that a dominant percentage of people cared more about how Halo 3, Gears of War, Fable 2, and the new Splinter Cell would compare to Wii and PS3 games MUCH more than trying to compete with the BC that both other systems say they will have. And what you are saying is nothing (I repeat) nothing near to what I said.




Now you are just being dense. Last I checked telling your consumers one thing and then half a year later coming out and saying something to the contrary is lying to them. Even if they referred to it as only a goal, it was a goal they presented to their consumers and said they'd try to achieve. Now we hear one of their execs say that they "underpromised and overdelivered". Funny usually the promise of something that is later broken gets an apology not a denial of said promise (or goal if you want to call it that the end result is the same). Look at it this way, if I promised to give you $100 in the next say 200 days. Then I only send a total of $20 for a couple weeks, you ask me what's up this and I respond by sayingl I "overdelievered" on my end, you'd probably say I lied and commited mail fraud.
Still missing the point..he's referring to the very beginning of this whole deal when at first there would be no BC, but then it was revealed that the top Xbox games would be BC. THAT AND ONLY THAT was a promise. That promise has been pretty well carried out so far (just because you think an Xbox game is one of the best doesn't mean the general population does..which is what MS is most worried about..the majority). The idea of 100% BC was something Moore stated as a goal. It was MS's GOAL to get to 100% BC...big difference. In that sense, which is what Moore means, which is what I mean...they did underpromise (meaning they did not PROMISE every game) and they overdelivered (meaning they gave us more than just the top Xbox games). And mail fraud is a completely different area that has nothing to do with this topic and is a pretty bad example.



I could care less about shoving it back in their face, I'd like what I was told was going to happen to actually happen though. To be honest, I would be far less upset had they actually tried, but they did not. They found it easier to give up than make good on thier goals and promises to the consumer. While nothing will come from our bitching about this i'm sure, if you ask a lot of execs what's important for a successful business, at least two responses will be completing your goals and have a client base than trust in you. You're right about one thing though, MS did fail, at both of those things.
Did I say I bet Duo Maxwell feels that way? No, I said most people probably will (at least most of those who realize that poll is for 360 and not for Nintendo systems). And yes, they did choose to give up on that goal instead of letting it drag on more and more when they know most of the games that people want are represented on the BC list. Also, you failed at yet another comment because I know (personally) that a lot of people trust MS more than ever especially handling their hardware/system questions or needs. They have upped their game in customer support as well as Live support, and, as mentioned by someone earlier, they have even responded to emails about possible games in the BC list and what not. This is one goal they have failed at...ONE. Did they fail at providing a easy to use and good online experience? NO. Did they fail at making games that look better and play better than what was normally put out on Xbox? NO. Did they fail at making a system that any type of gamer can use to their advantage and anyway they wanted? NO. Did they fail at making the Marketplace something that was kept up to date in media and development and entertaining? NO. Did they fail at a goal that was nearly impossible to accomplish right from the get-go? Yes. Man, Microsoft really sucks.

[jmcc]

All the prior postage aside, I believe there should be some CAG money refundage in order here: http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51622

[eldad9]

I was hoping they would at least make a few more games BC before deciding to drop it. Looks like the only way to play Shenmue II now is back on the old Xbox.

Um, dreamcast?

[Tha Xecutioner]

Um, dreamcast?

It's only an import for Dreamcast fyi

[eldad9]

Peter Moore on BC: "We already have your money, only some internet dorks remember our promises, and people who don't have a 360 are only looking to the future. Screw you guys, I'm going home"

Heh, that's kinda what happened when Sega switched from "Buy our console and games, get free online play" to "play online for $10 a month" to "play offline".

Here's a question: Did microsoft actually promise backwards compatibility?

If they didn't, you've got nothing to complain about. If they did, a class action lawsuit is the only way to make them follow through. Anybody up for it?

[eldad9]

It's only an import for Dreamcast fyi

I know. I own both the Dreamcast version and the xbox version ($5 at fry's, couldn't resist).

The bottom line: If you paid for the game (by buying the xbox version) and are stuck without being able to play it on your new microsoft console, I don't have a moral issue with you downloading and playing it on the dreamcast.

[Scahom1]

What bullshit. I'm so tired of the ending hype and broken promises these systems get prior to launch. I was really hoping I could dump off my old XB, now it looks like I'm stuck with it.

[Sarang01]

Shit I wouldn't care if BC was limited as long as they put worthy games up like PDO, Jet Set Radio Future, Gunvalkyrie(fuck you, I can deal with the controls) Otogi 1 and 2, Buffy, Breakdown, Chronicles Of Riddick, Genma Onimusha, Fatal Frame and Fatal Frame 2. Most other games I could give a fuck less about.

[Monsta Mack]

My main issue with this deal is MS sounded like we would have all of the games, eventually, backwards. I knew the emulation would be difficult to work with, but when you promise somebody something you expect it to happen down the road. MS broke their promise and this is probably the worst thing they have done with the 360. With the exception of the faulty systems of course.

Yes, It is easy to plug in your old xbox and play the games that aren't backwards. But when I get my PS3 and Wii, I will be able to ditch both older systems thanks to backwards comptability.

I also think MS did a bad job at backwards comptability in general. I have 134 XBox games and only 28 of them work which means 21% of my libary is backwards. I'm sure alot of people shrug at this because they don't own as many titles or they only own GTA and Halo so it doesn't matter to them, but as a XBox addict it's disturbing at how many titles I can't play on my 360.

The bottom line is MS failed to deliver on their promise unless by some sort of miracle 90%+ or better of their titles are backwards by the end of the year, but as long as my original XBox works I will still be able to play these titles without a problem. Unfortunately this sucks for people who sold their original XBox or had no plans on getting one for the past titles. This sucks even more for the newer titles that are coming out (MLB Slugfest, Painkiller, Destroy All Humans 2, Mortal Kombat and Bully are all the highlights imho for the rest of this year) that are sure to be hits but MS will ignore. I'm hoping at the very least MS decides to support the better selling titles like Counterstrike (Sorry Otogi and Shenmue) to atleast make the few of us happy.

[freezedried74]

Thursday, June 01, 2006 6:12 PM by johnporcaro
Backwards Compatibility Update Coming Soon

Lots of talk about backwards compatibility online today. We wanted to get to the bottom of it all, so we went right to the team working on the next back compat update. We hear directly from them that they're in the testing phase of another update, and it should be out in the next few weeks. We saw the list they're testing, and it looks like they're hoping to add at least a dozen titles.

Long before the launch, we thought we might hit a few dozen titles, and we all feel pretty good about the list of well over 200 titles on the back compat list today, including many of the games that you’ve asked for. You all have heard us say the work isn't simple. Many games did unique things to take advantage of the processing power of the Xbox, and that makes it difficult to emulate, especially when we then have to make new code work with existing (and future) compatible titles.

But rest assured, we're not done yet.

We know for a fact that there are lots of people who continue to care about backwards compatibility, including the "Emulation Ninjas" who are working full time on the updates. And those of us posting on this blog. And, of course, many of you.

Stay tuned for more information about the upcoming update…

http://gamerscoreblog.com/team/archive/2006/06/01/535135.aspx

[m0rningbreakfast]

Barbie Horse Adventures!

Barbie Horse Adventures!

[Sporadic]

My main issue with this deal is MS sounded like we would have all of the games, eventually, backwards. I knew the emulation would be difficult to work with, but when you promise somebody something you expect it to happen down the road. MS broke their promise and this is probably the worst thing they have done with the 360.

Goal = promise?

Thursday, June 01, 2006 6:12 PM by johnporcaro
Backwards Compatibility Update Coming Soon

Lots of talk about backwards compatibility online today. We wanted to get to the bottom of it all, so we went right to the team working on the next back compat update. We hear directly from them that they're in the testing phase of another update, and it should be out in the next few weeks. We saw the list they're testing, and it looks like they're hoping to add at least a dozen titles.

Long before the launch, we thought we might hit a few dozen titles, and we all feel pretty good about the list of well over 200 titles on the back compat list today, including many of the games that you’ve asked for. You all have heard us say the work isn't simple. Many games did unique things to take advantage of the processing power of the Xbox, and that makes it difficult to emulate, especially when we then have to make new code work with existing (and future) compatible titles.

But rest assured, we're not done yet.

We know for a fact that there are lots of people who continue to care about backwards compatibility, including the "Emulation Ninjas" who are working full time on the updates. And those of us posting on this blog. And, of course, many of you.

Stay tuned for more information about the upcoming update…

http://gamerscoreblog.com/team/archive/2006/06/01/535135.aspx

Sexy, I'm hoping that the "dozen" games are Mercenaries, Morrowind, Midway Arcade Treasures 1 & 3, Def Jam, Midtown Madness 3, JAWS Unleashed, OutRun 2006: Coast 2 Coast , Tony Hawk 2X, Conker, Doom III and Doom: RoE

[trq]

Goal = promise?

All of a sudden everybody's an expert on semantics. When you say you're making something your goal, you're implying you're going to do everything in your power to actually attain that goal, not half-ass it, give up, and then tell everybody they should feel lucky for getting as much as they did.

[Kaijufan]

What about instead of doing BC on the 360, why not release an official Xbox emulator for the PC a few years down the road, which would let you use your Xbox game disks in a DVD Rom drive. The wired 360 controllers would work very well for playing these games, and it's possible that an Intel/AMD chip would be similar enough to the Xbox 1's chip that emulation would be possible on the vast majority of games.
Perhaps this could even be a major feature of a Windows Vista Service Pack. Since Microsoft is already planning on letting us link our Live accounts to our computers in Vista, we could easily play games online on the PC.

[Genocidal]

PC DVD drives can't read XBox discs, so that really isn't feasible, aside from the fact that the PC you'd need to run it would most likely have to be a fucking beast.

[mykevermin]

PC DVD drives can't read XBox discs

Now that's horseshit. They don't become torrents by willpower alone.

I know. I own both the Dreamcast version and the xbox version ($5 at fry's, couldn't resist).

The bottom line: If you paid for the game (by buying the xbox version) and are stuck without being able to play it on your new microsoft console, I don't have a moral issue with you downloading and playing it on the dreamcast.

Awesome! Now I can go download Panzer Dragoon Orta to play on my Dreamcast. Fan-fucking-tastic!

[Kaijufan]

PC DVD drives can't read XBox discs, so that really isn't feasible, aside from the fact that the PC you'd need to run it would most likely have to be a fucking beast. I did say they should release it a few years down the road. ;)
And why couldn't you have an emulator which when it boots up tricks your PC and DVD Rom drive into thinking it's an Xbox DVD Drive?

[Genocidal]

Now that's horseshit. They don't become torrents by willpower alone.
You're right, they don't. People FTP them over from their XBoxes to their PC, and then rebuild the ISOs with programs that can make XBox disc images.

I did say they should release it a few years down the road. ;)
And why couldn't you boot up an emulator which tricks your DVD Rom drive into thinking it's an Xbox DVD Drive?
If you want to come up with an emulation tool that will work with the firmware of all the different DVD drives out there, be my guest. The XBox scene isn't exactly small or full of blathering idiots, and they haven't done it yet, so I'd imagine it's not that easy.

[Kaijufan]

If you want to come up with an emulation tool that will work with the firmware of all the different DVD drives out there, be my guest. The XBox scene isn't exactly small or full of blathering idiots, and they haven't done it yet, so I'd imagine it's not that easy.
I don't want to do it, I want Microsoft to do it. I would think it would be easier for them to do it then for anyone else.
I admit I don't know much about how emulation, especially hardware emulation works, but I would think they could use a pretty generic program for the DVD Rom drives that slow them down to Xbox 1 DVD speeds (5x right?). Is the Xbox 1 DVD drive that different from PC DVD drives?

[Genocidal]

Physically, the drive is the same afaik. The firmware is written to tell it to read the disc differently than a PC DVD drive, however, which is where the problem lies. As I said before, the XBox "scene" isn't all a bunch of hacks, and with the information available to them, if this was easy to do, it'd be done. Even if it was possible, the tech support in trying to help people change the firmware on their DVD drives? Horrendous.

[tayaf69]

I was really looking forward to getting an xbox 360 once they updated the list better. I have never owned an xbox and have wanted to play so many games such as ninja gaiden, BUT I guess Peter Moore just solved my problem and helped me save $440. Thanks Microsoft!

[Kaijufan]

I just looked at Wikipedia, and I see that the Xbox uses XFAT for the disks. Do 360 games use UDF or XFAT?
Perhaps if Microsoft does release an Xbox emulator for the PC, they would require the use of certain DVD drives which have updated firmware that are able to read XFAT. They could even bundle a copy of the emulator with an XFAT drive.

[worx]

Weird. I just wish they'd actually sit down and make more quality games BC - some of the stuff they've got would never be played by someone who owns a 360.

[neocisco]

Out of my approximately 110 Xbox games only 33 are BC. I have probably a dozen 1st-party titles that aren't BC. M$ isn't even taken care of their own games. It looks like it will be a few years before I buy 360. PS3? A realistic price will get a realistic time frame. It looks like it's Nintendo only for next-gen, at least for the time being.

[Skelah]

that stupid nobodys concerned quote just made a few more people out there avoid the 360 and wait on ps3.

Even if it were true its the type of thing a company woudlnt want to admit .

Microsoft has way to many lies wraped up in the 360 the launch was so shady im waiting atleast a year before im getting one now.

[Richlough]

Is there a petition online for this yet ?

I think Mr. Moore needs to know how many people haven't "lost interest" .

[FriskyTanuki]

I'm not surprised after seeing no mention of it by Microsoft in their press conference at E3.

[Metal Boss]

What a joke

[eldad9]

http://www.qbrundage.com/michaelb/pubs/essays/xbox360.html

It seems microsoft never actually promised all titles would be backwards compatible - you had no real basis to expect it.

[Sporadic]

http://www.qbrundage.com/michaelb/pubs/essays/xbox360.html

It seems microsoft never actually promised all titles would be backwards compatible - you had no real basis to expect it.

No, you don't get it. They said it was their goal to get all of the game backwards compatible, which means anything but is a complete and utter failure.
:bomb: Fuck U M$ I AM SELING MY CONULE N0W :bomb:


;)

- edit I kind of understand where those people are coming from but I always taking that quote as goal = hope not = promise.

[ryanbph]

if you look in the b/c thread, linkin updated the info from msft...it is also linked on major nelsons website

[Duo_Maxwell]

http://www.qbrundage.com/michaelb/pubs/essays/xbox360.html

It seems microsoft never actually promised all titles would be backwards compatible - you had no real basis to expect it.

Ok then what did they promise. Everyone wants to suddenly argue semantics all day but could I think we can all agree they told us best selling titles would be supported and I can probably name, just off the top of my head, more best selling titles that aren't on the list than ones that are. So I still don't see how anyone can think MS was being on the level in their original promises or stated goals or whatever the fuck you want to call them to the consumer.

[MarioColbert]

Sorry, guys, I really don't belong here, since I don't, won't, and seems like won't ever own an XBOX console, but fair is fair. Yes, I'm a Nintendo fanboy, but I'm with Moore on this one.

First and foremost: no reason to rehash his statements, I'm certain that they've covered their ass with nebulous fine print, use of words like "hope," "set our goals," etc. I doubt you will find any mentions of "achieving" or "pursuing" these goals to perfection. It's not a hard game to figure out: it's bullshit. Every company, be it Nintendo, Sony, or Microsoft has been responsible for lying to customers.

Moore is saying what I'm sure he has thought all along. Had he been more careful and said "our numbers indicate that Backwards Compatibility is not the market's primary concern," there would be way less flames, way less uses of the word fuck, and a lot of people would be scared of the word "numbers," despite places like kotaku calling bullshit.

If you are an Xbox fan, don't sell your Xbox360. At least wait for the good stuff to head your way. And calm down: if there is a lesson to learn in this, they'll learn it. Look at N64 -> GameCube -> Wii development / marketing strategies if you want to see what happens to those that piss off the market. At the very least, this backwards compatibility stuff won't piss off the developers like the N64 cartridge did.

[DomLando]

Looks like MS is covering up Moores harsh words about BC. http://www.gamespot.com/news/6152207.html.
So supossedly there is still hope.

[Follandboy]

With out 100% BC it prevents 360 owners fromselling thier old Xboxs and knocking $80 off the price of the 360. In actuality, it makes the 360 $80 more expensive in my book.

[LinkinPrime]

if you look in the b/c thread, linkin updated the info from msft...it is also linked on major nelsons website

http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76006&page=10

Direct link to article http://gamerscoreblog.com/team/archive/2006/06/01/535135.aspx

[botticus]

Let me come at this from a different angle.

I don't have an Xbox, and this late in the game, don't plan on buying one. But I am planning on buying a 360 at some point. But if BC updates ended today, Microsoft will have delayed my purchase of a 360 (and 360 games and accessories where they make all their money, of course) by at least one price drop (say I thought about it at $200-$300 before, no way I'd pay more than $200 now). If I knew going in that I could choose from hundreds of good, cheap Xbox games to buy to play on the 360 in addition to whatever hot new games there were, that system has a lot more value than if I will be forced to pay $40-$60 for any games.

In summary, Moore is a shitty PR guy. I think his "goal" is to talk out of his ass as often as Phil Harrison.

[KaneRobot]

I'm growing tired of explaining why it's important to rake them over the coals on this whether or not you personally want backwards compatibility to be a focus, so I won't bother doing it again. The "Bill Clinton defense technique" some of you guys are falling for here in regards to what was said is disheartening, since this forum usually displays some good intelligence and has an above-average bullshit detector.

Madskills already posted what I came here to post, so....

Looks like MS is covering up Moores harsh words about BC. http://www.gamespot.com/news/6152207.html.
So supossedly there is still hope.

I'm cautiously optimistic. This smells more like damage control than a sincere statement, but we'll see when the next update shows up. I'm about ready to bet the farm on this upcoming one being the last one....so unless this next update has a TON of games - and it won't - the "overdelivered" statement remains bullshit.

In summary, Moore is a shitty PR guy. I think his "goal" is to talk out of his ass as often as Phil Harrison.

Sega's hardware division died on his watch. I'm STILL baffled as to why Microsoft brought him in.

[MarioColbert]

The "Bill Clinton defense technique" some of you guys are falling for here in regards to what was said is disheartening, since this forum usually displays some good intelligence and has an above-average bullshit detector.

I hope you didn't read my post as in: Moore is innocent of lying. What I did say, however, is that he can and WILL get away with such bullshit (exactly because HE can always use his "Bill Clinton defense technique"). I'm surprised that so many people believed that Microsoft will pull it off after the first list of backwards compatible games have been announced...

[DomLando]

I'm growing tired of explaining why it's important to rake them over the coals on this whether or not you personally want backwards compatibility to be a focus, so I won't bother doing it again. The "Bill Clinton defense technique" some of you guys are falling for here in regards to what was said is disheartening, since this forum usually displays some good intelligence and has an above-average bullshit detector.

Madskills already posted what I came here to post, so....



I'm cautiously optimistic. This smells more like damage control than a sincere statement, but we'll see when the next update shows up. I'm about ready to bet the farm on this upcoming one being the last one....so unless this next update has a TON of games - and it won't - the "overdelivered" statement remains bullshit.



Sega's hardware division died on his watch. I'm STILL baffled as to why Microsoft brought him in.
Yeah I agree with both of your statements.

[Puffa469]

Every bullshit lie that Microsoft and Sony tell only puts more of my money into Nintendos coffers. ;)

[sj41]

Every bullshit lie that Microsoft and Sony tell only puts more of my money into Nintendos coffers. ;)Wrong forum.

http://cheapassgamer.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=30&f=9

That's where you want to go to give Nintendo praise for their awesomenessity.

[Monsta Mack]

Well that's good news regarding future backwards titles. It would be nice if they spilled the beans on what titles they will be. I'm hoping for the other two Prince of Persias, whats the point if POP1 runs but the other two don't? The same can be said for a few games.

Either that or hopefully newer titles that received good scores recently. In the last 12 months Winning Eleven, Toca, MVP Baseball, Outrun, The Warriors and Doom ROE all ring a bell. Perhaps they will work on 2d fighting games for a change? One could only wish. I think Counterstrike strikes me the most considering that was one of their best selling FPS titles besides Halo and Rainbow Six on the xbox.

[Richlough]

All of the titles in their "Best Of Platinum Hits" should be BC .
Otherwise what's the point of having them , they're like the PH's that everybody has .
I'm pulling for PGR2 , my favorite Xbox game of all time .
I have alot of hours of play on that one .

[anonymouswhoami]

If Moore had just come out and said that making Xbox titles BC was more difficult than any one of them had expected, I'd be fine with the lack of BC updates. But to tell customers that MS gave you more than you could have reasonably expected is just insulting.

[Purkeynator]

The thing that really sucks is that I bought an Xbox in 2002. I have the Thompson drive one that really worries me that it is more prone to failure than the other drives. If my Xbox dies then without backward compatibility I have to buy another Xbox to play all my games. The trouble is that the system costs more now new than it did a couple of years ago. It is now $180 for another Xbox because of the gay ass Forza bundle. Add to the fact that production has been stopped on the original Xbox (any one notice how few new Xbox systems are on the shelves of stores lately?) and there is a potential problem here. I won't even entertain the notion of buying a crappy used Xbox at Gamestop that has been abused by some 9 year old kid.

[Puffa469]

You see how smart Moore is? He's a freakin genius. He's got all of us blaming each other for having too high, or too low expectations for the BC issue. Its turned into 'Your a fool for expecting 100% bc' or ' dont support Moores lies, they made a promise!'

I dont have any problem with Microsofts failure to deliver 100% backwards compatibility, the problem I have is how they play that failure off and make it our fault.

Moore could have come out and said something like 'we had a goal, that we now realize may never be reached, it was harder than we expected and now were reallocating our resources to something else' and that would have been the end of it.

But Moore turns it around makes us feel stupid of wanting BC. By coming out and saying 'no one wants it' he makes everyone that does want it feel foolish. Now were arguing semantics with each other.

I dont care if they delivered on the goal of BC or not. But dont fail at that goal and then tell me I never wanted it in the first place, thats just bullshit.

[Zoglog]

I don't carea bout BC anymore. But then again i never really did.