"The price of the PS3 is high... But you’re paying for potential,"

[MSI Magus]

"The price of the PS3 is high... But you’re paying for potential," - Sony CEO Howard Stinger

My response. Fuck Potential. When I buy a product I expect it to be quality, I expect it to be complete and I expect it to be fair. I buy consoles to play great games.

"When you bring into new technology, do you go for a cheaper transitional [product], or do you take a chance on future-proof, higher technology which will keep you going for many, many years?" he stated."

Odd, Nintendo is bringing in not only new technology but new idea's that have a larger chance of lasting many years then Sony's simple graphic upgrade does.

His final comment was on how Movie execs are debating if they want to use Blue Ray or Toshiba’s rival HD-DVD format. This again just show's that Playstation 3 isn't what is important to them at this point, they are taking gamers for granted. Sony honestly thinks we will buy whatever they slap the Playstation name on and this really pisses me off. The playstation 3 is basicaly Sony's platform to make Blue Ray a winner and they dont care what gamers have to say.

I know we see topics like this all the time but it really pisses me off. Gamers are upset and each and every single person at Sony who can actually do something instead just keeps taking this we know best, we are making quality attitude while shoving Blue Ray down our thoats.

Again I say fuck Sony.

[Reality's Fringe]

Now you're playing with....Potential!

(points for recognizing ultimate commercial reference)

[MSI Magus]

Now you're playing with....Potential!

*rolls eyes*

[Reality's Fringe]

*rolls eyes*

Use them emoticons, damn it. :cry:

In all seriousness, of course sony doesn't give a shit about gamers. They want you to buy their product, which is going to use Blue-Ray. If you feel outraged, send a message by spending your money elsewhere. The only way Blue Ray is going to be "shoved down your throat" is if you open your mouth and let it.

[radjago]

<physics joke>

You don't pay for potential. You pay for current.

</physics joke>

[help1]

Hmm, when a sony rep. is showing signs of doubt, everyone should be hiding in fear.

[Strell]

He has a point, but it's negated by the fact that in 5 years anything now will seem like peanuts.

One could argue this is a creative way of saying "our architecture is so nightmarish that by the time people get used to it, it will match what is out there, so really it's a good thing" but that is more of an apologist statement against (what are supposedly) ghastly development tools. I'm not programmer so I don't know, and I'm going by the fact that, apparently, lots of cores = pain pain pain. In other words, this could all be creative marketspeak, but I dunno.

You can't future-proof technology, especially graphical technology. That stuff is moving too fast.

[radjago]

Realistically, you could say that about any console. You are paying for the potential that developers will make games that are to your liking and that the console will become successful enough to support those games.

[MSI Magus]

He has a point, but it's negated by the fact that in 5 years anything now will seem like peanuts.

One could argue this is a creative way of saying "our architecture is so nightmarish that by the time people get used to it, it will match what is out there, so really it's a good thing" but that is more of an apologist statement against (what are supposedly) ghastly development tools. I'm not programmer so I don't know, and I'm going by the fact that, apparently, lots of cores = pain pain pain. In other words, this could all be creative marketspeak, but I dunno.

You can't future-proof technology, especially graphical technology. That stuff is moving too fast.

Sad thing is thats the exact truth. By the time people get used to the PS3 hardware, and by the time its at a price most people are willing to pay....it will be time for Playstation 4.

[argyle]

It'll be nice once the PS3 comes out because:

1) I can actually play the damn thing

2) Maybe - maybe - people will shut up about the freakin' price and talk about the games. But I doubt it.

[Strell]

Sad thing is thats the exact truth. By the time people get used to the PS3 hardware, and by the time its at a price most people are willing to pay....it will be time for Playstation 4.

Well, I was implying that.

[HumanSnatcher]

It'll be nice once the PS3 comes out because:

1) I can actually play the damn thing

2) Maybe - maybe - people will shut up about the freakin' price and talk about the games. But I doubt it.

How can someone play said games if they can't afford it?

[MSI Magus]

It'll be nice once the PS3 comes out because:

1) I can actually play the damn thing

2) Maybe - maybe - people will shut up about the freakin' price and talk about the games. But I doubt it.

The thing is horribly price and they are ripping us off, we have a right to talk about it. And you would to at some point unless your a rich little spoiled brat living off daddy's money. $800, $1000, $1500, $2000, at some point you would react like the rest of us. I aparently just like being raped up the ass less then you ;)

[MSI Magus]

Well, I was implying that.

I know....

[HumanSnatcher]

The thing is horribly price and they are ripping us off, we have a right to talk about it. And you would to at some point unless your a rich little spoiled brat living off daddy's money. $800, $1000, $1500, $2000, at some point you would react like the rest of us. I aparently just like being raped up the ass less then you ;)

AMEN to that!

[chosen1s]

Use them emoticons, damn it. :cry:

In all seriousness, of course sony doesn't give a shit about gamers. They want you to buy their product, which is going to use Blue-Ray. If you feel outraged, send a message by spending your money elsewhere. The only way Blue Ray is going to be "shoved down your throat" is if you open your mouth and let it.

I disagree. Many Dreamcast fans voted with their wallets and still got the competition shoved down their throats. Where is your Dreamcast now? N64 fans voted with their wallets and got Final Fantasy VII on 4 discs with load times and such shoved down their throats (Yes, many of you love that game to no end, bot some don't - and that's the point). Your vote only goes so far without large numbers of other people voting with you. For me, this is why we have these boards and the meaningful (though often impassioned) dialogue about what's going on in video games and the world in general.

If Sony really doesn't care about gamers, less-informed people need to know about it. And how are they going to know if people like the OP don't speak up? Sony VP on the news: "Yes, we hope everyone buys a PS3 this Christmas. Especially since we don't care about gamers wants and are only using this as a platform to push our commitment to Blu-Ray."

I'm not even all that passionate about the PS3 one way or the other, but it's nice to see that not everyone is going to blindly swallow whatever Sony craps out. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to put my own blindfold on and head on over the the Wii forum.

[CappyCobra]

Now you're playing with....Potential!

(points for recognizing ultimate commercial reference)
Does it come with the 'Potential Glove'?
What about 'R.O.B' the Sony MSRP? :D

[JSweeney]

Where is your Dreamcast now?
Hooked up to my TV, next to my Gamecube, PS2, Xbox, Saturn, N64, PSX, Genesis, SNES, Turbo CD, Master System and NES. Quality, not potential, tends to endure, even if it's only a couple of titles.

[argyle]

The thing is horribly price and they are ripping us off, we have a right to talk about it. And you would to at some point unless your a rich little spoiled brat living off daddy's money. $800, $1000, $1500, $2000, at some point you would react like the rest of us. I aparently just like being raped up the ass less then you ;)


You have a right to bitch about whatever you want, just like I have a right to point out how silly it is. Freedom of speach works both ways. ;)

And I love the "spoiled brat" crap - from what I've seen, MOST people bitching about the price are teenagers. I'm married & working.

It's $100 - $100 - more than the Premium 360 (which is what everyone seems to want, since no one wants to be with the hdd) unless you care about the hdmi port. The hdmi port has nothing to do with gaming, nor will it prevent you from watching blu-ray movies (at least not for years to come, if ever). So why isn't the 360 getting the same kind of flak? I call "raped up the ass" paying $400 for a system with games I'm not interested in, PC ports, half-assed backwards compatibility, and an online service I have to pay extra for. But that's just me I suppose. ;)

But seriously - this has been beaten beyond recognition. Either you think the system is worth it, or you don't. Either you have decided to save up the extra $100 - $200 over the 360's price, or you haven't. What does anyone get from continually harping on the subject? Sure, you have the RIGHT to - whatever floats your boat I suppose. *shrug*

[Kendal]

You have a right to bitch about whatever you want, just like I have a right to point out how silly it is. Freedom of speech works both ways. ;)

And I love the "spoiled brat" crap - from what I've seen, MOST people bitching about the price are teenagers. I'm married & working.

It's $100 - $100 - more than the Premium 360 (which is what everyone seems to want, since no one wants to be with the hdd) unless you care about the hdmi port. The hdmi port has nothing to do with gaming, nor will it prevent you from watching blu-ray movies (at least not for years to come, if ever). So why isn't the 360 getting the same kind of flak? I call "raped up the ass" paying $400 for a system with games I'm not interested in, PC ports, half-assed backwards compatibility, and an online service I have to pay extra for. But that's just me I suppose. ;)

But seriously - this has been beaten beyond recognition. Either you think the system is worth it, or you don't. Either you have decided to save up the extra $100 - $200 over the 360's price, or you haven't. What does anyone get from continually harping on the subject? Sure, you have the RIGHT to - whatever floats your boat I suppose. *shrug*

I would also like to add that...well nothing. I agree. But I would have used more colorful language.

[MSI Magus]

You have a right to bitch about whatever you want, just like I have a right to point out how silly it is. Freedom of speach works both ways. ;)

And I love the "spoiled brat" crap - from what I've seen, MOST people bitching about the price are teenagers. I'm married & working.

It's $100 - $100 - more than the Premium 360 (which is what everyone seems to want, since no one wants to be with the hdd) unless you care about the hdmi port. The hdmi port has nothing to do with gaming, nor will it prevent you from watching blu-ray movies (at least not for years to come, if ever). So why isn't the 360 getting the same kind of flak? I call "raped up the ass" paying $400 for a system with games I'm not interested in, PC ports, half-assed backwards compatibility, and an online service I have to pay extra for. But that's just me I suppose. ;)

But seriously - this has been beaten beyond recognition. Either you think the system is worth it, or you don't. Either you have decided to save up the extra $100 - $200 over the 360's price, or you haven't. What does anyone get from continually harping on the subject? Sure, you have the RIGHT to - whatever floats your boat I suppose. *shrug*

Why is it silly to complain when a corporation takes its fans for granted, pisses all over its developers and in general just takes a you will buy our product no matter what attitude?

Im 23 and engaged, most of my friends are 20+ and everyone is pissed off. Maybe your just assuming. Most people I know that have been happy with the price are spoiled like rich brats. People who actually work for their money or atleast understand the value of a dollar so far have been pissed.

The 360 isnt getting the same kind of flak because 1. Its price while outragous isnt as horrid but more importantly 2. The PS3 costs so much no one can stop to think about the 360(besides alot of people just dont care about the 360). When MS announced their price I heard alot of bitching, its just been overshadowed now.

You say what do we get for harping on this. I ask what does Sony gain constantly reassuring us that we are getting our moneys worth or that they are doing the right thing. Maybe if Sony would shut their mouths already the rest of us would calm down a bit too. But, nope. Sony will continue to have their CEOs, Presidents and everyone else out of touch with reality reaasure us they know best and we are not being ripped off.

[argyle]

You say what do we get for harping on this. I ask what does Sony gain constantly reassuring us that we are getting our moneys worth or that they are doing the right thing. Maybe if Sony would shut their mouths already the rest of us would calm down a bit too. But, nope. Sony will continue to have their CEOs, Presidents and everyone else out of touch with reality reaasure us they know best and we are not being ripped off.


This is what these people get paid for - to push their product. Do you honestly think MS or Nintendo are any different? They're all out to make a buck.

And personally, I hardly feel like I've been taken for granted as a fan. I've been promised what look like some kick-ass games on very advanced hardware. And I'm actually going to - *gasp* - USE the blu-ray player! :shock:

You say I don't know the value of a dollar, I say I have the ability to budget & actually save money for something I think will be worth it.

[help1]

You have a right to bitch about whatever you want, just like I have a right to point out how silly it is. Freedom of speach works both ways. ;)

And I love the "spoiled brat" crap - from what I've seen, MOST people bitching about the price are teenagers. I'm married & working.

It's $100 - $100 - more than the Premium 360 (which is what everyone seems to want, since no one wants to be with the hdd) unless you care about the hdmi port. The hdmi port has nothing to do with gaming, nor will it prevent you from watching blu-ray movies (at least not for years to come, if ever). So why isn't the 360 getting the same kind of flak? I call "raped up the ass" paying $400 for a system with games I'm not interested in, PC ports, half-assed backwards compatibility, and an online service I have to pay extra for. But that's just me I suppose. ;)

But seriously - this has been beaten beyond recognition. Either you think the system is worth it, or you don't. Either you have decided to save up the extra $100 - $200 over the 360's price, or you haven't. What does anyone get from continually harping on the subject? Sure, you have the RIGHT to - whatever floats your boat I suppose. *shrug*

Wow, thats amazing, that you need to pay for an amazing online experience that makes me buy less games. OH and you say that the games are PC Ports, but I dont think the PC has has halo 3 and other action games, which combined with XBL, is why I and probably alot more people people are buying it for. Also, it really depends on what games you DO like, I suppose you like RPG's and such, which bore the living hell outta me, while I enjoy *gasp* sports games, FPS and TPS. Now more on the Xbox Live, that you complain about. Lets use your logic... "ITS ONLY 50 DOLLARS!" but to me, this feature in games adds 100's upon 100's of hours on to gameplay AND it allows me to play with friends and family, which adds so much to the gameplay. Now I havn't looked into the next gen much, but I am saving up for 360, ps3 and Wii, but there is NO WAY that I will buy PS3 until it price drops, cause I fell for the hype of PS2, and was extremely disapointed. As of right now, The way I see it is that Wii will be the best bang for the buck, and looks like when coupled with a 360 (Wii60 as some say) Its gonna be gaming heaven.

</opinion>

[opportunity777]

Buying potential is no good if that potential is never able to be used because it's too inaccessible, expensive, difficult to use, or better / efficient / easier alternatives are available.

I predicted before that HD-DVD would win this format war, and I'm going to stand by that one.

The PS3 line was looking pretty shitty at first, but I really want FFXIII, Ridge Racer 7, and the new Tekken game. Unfortunately, I'm going to be waiting until about 2008 to enjoy those games because the price point is out of my range as far as what I'm willing to pay.

[suko_32]

I buy kinetic, if that makes any sense, which it could not.

[marten]

It's $100 - $100 - more than the Premium 360 (which is what everyone seems to want, since no one wants to be with the hdd) unless you care about the hdmi port. The hdmi port has nothing to do with gaming, nor will it prevent you from watching blu-ray movies (at least not for years to come, if ever). So why isn't the 360 getting the same kind of flak? I call "raped up the ass" paying $400 for a system with games I'm not interested in, PC ports, half-assed backwards compatibility, and an online service I have to pay extra for. But that's just me I suppose. ;)

Hear hear...you would have thought they would at least have made the 360 fully backwards compatible...oops?

As for the price...just wait till the 360 gets their HD-DVD addon. Think people will remember they shelled out 400 bucks for the system, and then ANOTHER 100-200 for a HD-DVD player? Those people will still be on the bandwagon that "599 is just too goddamn much for a gaming system", and they will have paid that amount themselves when they're standing in line for their HD-DVD units.

[Dr Mario Kart]

except that not everyone will buy the HD-DVD add on, and those are going to be the people left complaining.

Even the people that DID buy it still have a right to complain, because they at least had a choice in the matter.

[MSI Magus]

This is what these people get paid for - to push their product. Do you honestly think MS or Nintendo are any different? They're all out to make a buck.

And personally, I hardly feel like I've been taken for granted as a fan. I've been promised what look like some kick-ass games on very advanced hardware. And I'm actually going to - *gasp* - USE the blu-ray player! :shock:

You say I don't know the value of a dollar, I say I have the ability to budget & actually save money for something I think will be worth it.

Yes they get payed for it but it doesnt make it right. Nintendo not only would do it, but they did do it in the past and guess what. They payed for it. Nintendo payed out the ass for ignoring what developers and fans thought. And hopefully now Sony will.

They may be payed to spin and hype, but they are also payed to sell. Period. Acting the way these guys have often leads to horrible horrible failure. Again Nintendo pissed on their fans and developers, they threatend and bullied and did alot of negative shit and they failed partially as a result. Sony has gotten so cocky, arrogant and greedy that now they even want to build a system that wont play used games...something most say is illegal.

I didnt say you personaly dont know the value of a dollar, just most I have talked to havnt. Although, I do question if you truely can know the value of a dollar if you have $600 to piss away on a console when for the same price alot of other games will take that money and buy 30+ games.

[argyle]

Also, it really depends on what games you DO like, I suppose you like RPG's and such, which bore the living hell outta me, while I enjoy *gasp* sports games, FPS and TPS.


I agree 110% - which is why, for someone like you who enjoys mainly shooters & sports titles I'd say yea, go for the 360. But people act like the 2 systems are interchangeable, like different brands of a vcr, when this isn't the case. People buy systems for games, and I happen to prefer the games on Sony's sytem more. So do a lot of other people.

[botticus]

Hear hear...you would have thought they would at least have made the 360 fully backwards compatible...oops?
Heh, our good friend Kaz got in a dig at MS about the BC issue in his interview in GI... but based on the way Sony PR works lately, I consider that more of a kiss of death than anything else. Fast forward one year and I predict we'll see "We said it would be BC with PS2 and PS1... but we didn't say how good it would be! All games at least load the menu screen, which is really overdelivering on what we promised."

It's what we like to call "Don't count your eggs before they hatch." Or "Don't bash other peoples' attempts at backwards compatibility before you have proven you can do it better."

[Blitz]

Fuck Sony and Fuck M$. They both overpriced their consoles and I won't buy either one until the prices drop. 360 I will never buy unless their game content changes. PS3 I will buy when the price comes down.

I don't give a shit about blu-ray or HD-DVD. It will be a while before either one of them catch on anyway. Sony is banking on blu-ray catching on and IMO it won't.

Sony needs to realize that in America it's what have you done for me lately. What they did 2 or 3 years ago means nothing when the PS3 hits. Just ask Nintendo.

[opportunity777]

Sony has gotten so cocky, arrogant and greedy that now they even want to build a system that wont play used games...something most say is illegal.


Where did they say it won't play used games?

I don't see how that would work considering much of GS/EB business is conducted through selling used games at considerable profits. Also, how will people be able to rent games from Blockbuster? Not everyone wants to download games to their harddrive. Smells like bullshit to me.

[marten]

except that not everyone will buy the HD-DVD add on, and those are going to be the people left complaining.

Even the people that DID buy it still have a right to complain, because they at least had a choice in the matter.

So what you're saying is that the PS3 should be redesigned around the plain DVD standard, and have Blu-Ray as an optional add-on? What happens when the storage space of the format hits the proverbial ceiling, and we end up seeing 2-3-4 DVD games, because game companies have to cater to those with and without Blu-Ray? (Ask Microsoft this question, because they'll be dealing with it sooner or later re: HD-DVD.)

I realize that people always want to be given a choice in the matter, but when it comes to new technology, it just may not be feasible. I'll probably end up buying a PS3 at launch, assuming two things:

1. The launch titles are actually worth my time.
2. Sony is actually taking a loss selling ME their console. (which should be the case, unless somehow Blu-Ray exponentially takes off in the next 5 months, and they find some glaring flaw in HD-DVD)

As long as it is worth the money, people won't have an issue paying it. Hell, we'd probably pay $1000 for the PS3, if it made margaritas, pancakes, and sang Kumbayaa when we went to sleep. :drool:

[botticus]

Where did they say it won't play used games?

I don't see how that would work considering much of GS/EB business is conducted through selling used games at considerable profits. Also, how will people be able to rent games from Blockbuster? Not everyone wants to download games to their harddrive. Smells like bullshit to me.
It was rumored at one point that the PS3 would restrict game discs to the system they were initially loaded on. And they could certainly do that, because Sony doesn't care if EB/GS makes a profit nor do they care if Blockbuster makes a profit. The idea behind that theory is that people would be forced to buy a game if they wanted to play it at all, which would make Sony and their partners more money.

[Strell]

C'mon now. The PS3 is not only $100 more than the 360, cuz you'd be a total idiot to get the tarded $500 system.

Crippled HDMI on a system that is supposed to be a trojan horse for the DVD battle royale?

I like to buy cars with square wheels, please!

[rabbitt]

I buy kinetic, if that makes any sense, which it could not.

I'm going to branch off of this by firstly saying in the video game industry, this is the safest bet. Look at all of the consoles that failed because they didn't turn potential energy into kinetic.

However, it's hard for lots of people (even CAGs) to wait until a system has reached a point where the potential energy is turning into kintetic. Buying a console at launch is always a gamble, it just depends a lot on what you are looking for out of a system.

[argyle]

C'mon now. The PS3 is not only $100 more than the 360, cuz you'd be a total idiot to get the tarded $500 system.

Crippled HDMI on a system that is supposed to be a trojan horse for the DVD battle royale?

I like to buy cars with square wheels, please!


Well, first the fabled protection on blu-ray disks that wouldn't allow them to run at full resolution on anything other than a hdmi connection hasn't happened. And everything we're being told says it WON'T happen for several years, if at all.

But assuming it IS there....people keep saying they don't want to pay for a blu-ray player, they just want the games. Then if that's true, buy the $500 which will do absolutely everything game-related that the $600 package will do. If you want the extra "ooomph" of the hdmi & to be assured you can play blu-ray movies, get the $600 package.

I just see a lot of people run double-arguments - they don't want to spend $600 because they want a game machine not a blu-ray player, but they don't want the "crippled" $500 pack because it (supposedly) won't play blu-ray movies. :headache:

[marten]

I just see a lot of people run double-arguments - they don't want to spend $600 because they want a game machine not a blu-ray player, but they don't want the "crippled" $500 pack because it (supposedly) won't play blu-ray movies. :headache:

Maybe they should take a page out of Microsoft's book and make it some kind of expansion add-on card. Hell, the hard drives are already interchangable, why not have....a pci-x hdmi card or something obscene?

[Mid Boss]

So what you're saying is that the PS3 should be redesigned around the plain DVD standard, and have Blu-Ray as an optional add-on? What happens when the storage space of the format hits the proverbial ceiling, and we end up seeing 2-3-4 DVD games, because game companies have to cater to those with and without Blu-Ray? (Ask Microsoft this question, because they'll be dealing with it sooner or later re: HD-DVD.)

Where has Microsoft ever said the HD-DVD add on will do anything but play HD-DVD movies? Everything I've read seems to point towards that being the only function of the add-on. Its not something they intend to use for games. And its hardly like a multi-DVD game would be that horrible of a thing to deal with. I never had any problems with changing discs back with PS1 games and I'm not going to care if I have to with 360 games either. If I want to play the game, and I'm not changing discs every 20 minutes, it is not an issue.

[marten]

Where has Microsoft ever said the HD-DVD add on will do anything but play HD-DVD movies? Everything I've read seems to point towards that being the only function of the add-on. Its not something they intend to use for games. And its hardly like a multi-DVD game would be that horrible of a thing to deal with. I never had any problems with changing discs back with PS1 games and I'm not going to care if I have to with 360 games either. If I want to play the game, and I'm not changing discs every 20 minutes, it is not an issue.

I know what they've said...but doesn't it seem like a waste to come out with an add-on player that does nothing else BUT movies? I could understand if one format was better than another (perhaps the Wii format vs. their add-on DVD player???), but why waste the storage space, load times, etc? Could you imagine a version of Fable that actually had 25gb of storage to deal with, or how large in scope a Phantasy Star universe could be?

Personally, I think Microsoft is doing the better end of the deal....releasing their game system well before the competition, and "testing the waters" when they release their HD-DVD addon, but they'd be stupid not to utilize the potential of it, IF (and maybe not if) it wins the format war.

[jer7583]

someone tell me again why we need games that use up more than one dual density DVD? It already costs too much to make a normal quality game this coming generation, and most developers still haven't grasped what makes a game fun beyond pretty graphics and licensed soundtracks.

More storage space isn't going to make games better. Tighter controls, original ideas, and fun concepts will.

And why the fuck does anyone give a shit about blu ray or HD-DVD or anything?? It's so damn stupid to pay more for the same thing you're getting now. There's absolutely nothing wrong with DVDs, and if you feel like you need those extra lines of resolution and sharper pictures, please, grow up and do something more meaninful with your life.

All this high def media shit is just macho posturing and pandering to losers who feel like they need the best of the best video/sound/whatever system to show off to people. My $120 20 inch TV from best buy has served me well through the past generation, and it'll play my Wii60 just fine for this one as well.

I really hate that people are so ignorant to buy into this shit, instead of resisting it and keeping DVD/Game prices at a reasonable level.

Microsoft has the right idea by releasing an addon, because people who don't give a shit about HD-DVD can just laugh at it on the shelf and enjoy their games. PS3 fanboys all of a sudden have a hard on about blu-ray and the new TV you need and new discs you need to "enjoy" it.

[MSI Magus]

Where did they say it won't play used games?

I don't see how that would work considering much of GS/EB business is conducted through selling used games at considerable profits. Also, how will people be able to rent games from Blockbuster? Not everyone wants to download games to their harddrive. Smells like bullshit to me.

They have never stated the PS3 will use this. However, Sony has started looking into designing future systems to be this way. They have commented they want to make a system that reads a CD when put in the system and from then on ONLY will play in that system. Numerous gaming sites posted this a few months back.

Marten - We Had 2-4 Disk games during the PSX era and it didnt kill us then, it wouldnt kill us now. Besides, I am sure they could find a happy medium other then Blue Ray. We shouldnt be forced into using new tech that will cost us $100s of dollars more.

Argyle - Because the Design the $500 system is still paying for all sorts of crap and the Blue Ray Price. There is absoutly no reason any console any company could design at this point in time should cost more then $400. Really, $300 is the reasonable price but I could ACCEPT $400. Gamers shouldnt have to buy a God damned Mini computer, consoles are consoles for a reason. When I get an Xbox or PS3 I wont get the basic pack, and its not because I dont want to be without a Blue Ray Player or whatever is left out of the Xbox. Its because its a much better value. Its like going to a Pizza Store and buying 2 single slices a pizza that cost $1.95 a peice when for only $1.10 more you could buy a whole damn pizza. Maybe I will only eat 2 peices right then but I would go for the long run value.

Defend Sony all you want, there is no excuse for the things they are doing. Their product costs too much, 90% of people seem to feel this way...and Sony's reaction is to essentially tell us we are wrong for feeling that way. Developers say they want easier hardware and what has Sony given them? Another difficult machine. And gamers want pricing and innovation...Sony has given them neither. Sony deserves to fall the way Nintendo did, and if they learn their lesson like Nintendo then I will be willing to give them another chance.

[graf1k]

Well, first the fabled protection on blu-ray disks that wouldn't allow them to run at full resolution on anything other than a hdmi connection hasn't happened. And everything we're being told says it WON'T happen for several years, if at all.

But assuming it IS there....people keep saying they don't want to pay for a blu-ray player, they just want the games. Then if that's true, buy the $500 which will do absolutely everything game-related that the $600 package will do. If you want the extra "ooomph" of the hdmi & to be assured you can play blu-ray movies, get the $600 package.

I just see a lot of people run double-arguments - they don't want to spend $600 because they want a game machine not a blu-ray player, but they don't want the "crippled" $500 pack because it (supposedly) won't play blu-ray movies. :headache:
I guess most people have a problem with the fact that they're two choices when buying a PS3 is even if they want a bare-bones gaming only system it still costs $100 more than a Premium 360 for no real difference in features or hardware, other than the BD drive that they can't even fully enjoy unless they pay ANOTHER $100 on top of that. If Sony had a model without Blu-Ray for the same price as a Premium 360, myself and probably many others wouldn't be complaining at all. However, because Sony wants to pimp Blu-Ray as a format because they get royalties from every BD and BD player sold, the consumer has no choice but the two Sony has delievered and obviously some/most of us aren't happy with the choices.

And I guess you can argue whether or not DVDs have sufficient space for next gen games, but honestly the only way that's going to happen is if a game has a shitload of CGI cutscenes, and honestly even then if Sony would just get on the bandwagon and commit to a codec like VC1 or h.264, they could get the same quality cutscene movies and only use 1/3rd the disc space. You do that now, hell you could fit certain length HD movies on a dual-layer DVD in 1080p.

[MSI Magus]

And why the fuck does anyone give a shit about blu ray or HD-DVD or anything?? It's so damn stupid to pay more for the same thing you're getting now. There's absolutely nothing wrong with DVDs, and if you feel like you need those extra lines of resolution and sharper pictures, please, grow up and do something more meaninful with your life.

All this high def media shit is just macho posturing and pandering to losers who feel like they need the best of the best video/sound/whatever system to show off to people. My $120 20 inch TV from best buy has served me well through the past generation, and it'll play my Wii60 just fine for this one as well.

I really hate that people are so ignorant to buy into this shit, instead of resisting it and keeping DVD/Game prices at a reasonable level.

Microsoft has the right idea by releasing an addon, because people who don't give a shit about HD-DVD can just laugh at it on the shelf and enjoy their games. PS3 fanboys all of a sudden have a hard on about blu-ray and the new TV you need and new discs you need to "enjoy" it.

Compltly agree. THe only reason people care about all this new HD DVD and Blue Ray and other shit is because Americans have waaaaay too much fucking money and are waaaaay too spoiled. Recent polls showed that most people actually dont give 2 shits about Blue Ray or know what it is, and most were annoyed at the thought of an upgrade to DVD Players when most only got DVD players the last couple years. However, that wont stop them from running out and spending $600 on one of these players, even if they dont have the money in the first place.

Again people in general, but especially us Americans are greedy fat bastards who feel we have to have the newest shit even if it isnt THAT impressive. Disgusting but true. And again this is why the PS3 will probally still sell. Even if people are outraged they will spend the money...gah its disgusting.

[marten]

They have never stated the PS3 will use this. However, Sony has started looking into designing future systems to be this way. They have commented they want to make a system that reads a CD when put in the system and from then on ONLY will play in that system. Numerous gaming sites posted this a few months back.

Marten - We Had 2-4 Disk games during the PSX era and it didnt kill us then, it wouldnt kill us now. Besides, I am sure they could find a happy medium other then Blue Ray. We shouldnt be forced into using new tech that will cost us $100s of dollars more.



Two things:

1. If they make Blu-Ray anything like old Divx (everyone remember those atrocities?), it'll die in 3 months flat.

2. Perhaps they don't want to go back to the 90's era when we all lived with multiple disc games. The only current gen multi-disc game I can think of, right off the top of my head, is Tales of Symphonia for the GC. There could be more, as my realm doesn't expand much past sims/rts/rpg's, but the number has to be small. I would think that taking that step would be a step backwards in their eyes, and probably wouldn't happen.

We're not being forced to use a new technology...as many people have pointed out, there are viable alternatives (the Wii and 360), but if you want Sony this time around, it looks like you're going to pony up Neo-Geo or CD-I money for it.

[epobirs]

So what you're saying is that the PS3 should be redesigned around the plain DVD standard, and have Blu-Ray as an optional add-on? What happens when the storage space of the format hits the proverbial ceiling, and we end up seeing 2-3-4 DVD games, because game companies have to cater to those with and without Blu-Ray? (Ask Microsoft this question, because they'll be dealing with it sooner or later re: HD-DVD.)

I realize that people always want to be given a choice in the matter, but when it comes to new technology, it just may not be feasible. I'll probably end up buying a PS3 at launch, assuming two things:

1. The launch titles are actually worth my time.
2. Sony is actually taking a loss selling ME their console. (which should be the case, unless somehow Blu-Ray exponentially takes off in the next 5 months, and they find some glaring flaw in HD-DVD)

As long as it is worth the money, people won't have an issue paying it. Hell, we'd probably pay $1000 for the PS3, if it made margaritas, pancakes, and sang Kumbayaa when we went to sleep. :drool:

Please explain why multiple DVD games would be such a horrible turn of events. I have plenty of multiple CD PS1 games. Not once in the course of playing a Final Fantasy did I come to a certain moment and scream, "Disc change? Disc Change?!?!? Oh God, why have you forsaken me? Why must I suffer this wretched, wretched fate?"

Seriously, so some games, by far in the minority, will come on multiple discs. So what? Unless you're counting on 30+ minute FMV sequences springing up in multiple sections of a game, it just isn't that hard to work a disc change into an appropriate point in the story. There are also options for mitigating this with the hard drive.

Given the choice between having some epic games require multiple DVDs vs. a much higher cost of entry for the platform, I'm voting for the occasional disc change.

[FriskyTanuki]

I guess most people have a problem with the fact that they're two choices when buying a PS3 is even if they want a bare-bones gaming only system it still costs $100 more for no real difference in features or hardware, other than the BD drive that they can't even fully enjoy unless they pay ANOTHER $100 on top of that. If Sony had a model without Blu-Ray for the same price as a Premium 360, myself and probably many others wouldn't be complaining at all. However, because Sony wants to pimp Blu-Ray as a format because they get royalties from every BD and BD player sold, the consumer has no choice but the two Sony has delievered and obviously some/most of us aren't happy with the choices.

And I guess you can argue whether or not DVDs have sufficient space for next gen games, but honestly the only way that's going to happen is if a game has a shitload of CGI cutscenes, and honestly even then if Sony would just get on the bandwagon and commit to a codec like VC1 or h.264, they could get the same quality cutscene movies and only use 1/3rd the disc space. You do that now, hell you could fit certain length HD movies on a dual-layer DVD in 1080p.
So you're saying you'd want games to be released on two different formats with a Blu-Ray PS3 and DVD PS3 being offered? :-s I don't think that's even plausible to consider.

[Kendal]

Two things:

1. If they make Blu-Ray anything like old Divx (everyone remember those atrocities?), it'll die in 3 months flat.

2. Perhaps they don't want to go back to the 90's era when we all lived with multiple disc games. The only current gen multi-disc game I can think of, right off the top of my head, is Tales of Symphonia for the GC. There could be more, as my realm doesn't expand much past sims/rts/rpg's, but the number has to be small. I would think that taking that step would be a step backwards in their eyes, and probably wouldn't happen.

We're not being forced to use a new technology...as many people have pointed out, there are viable alternatives (the Wii and 360), but if you want Sony this time around, it looks like you're going to pony up Neo-Geo or CD-I money for it.

More multiple disc games:

Star Ocean:Till the End of Time for PS2
Killer7 if I remember correctly for GCN
Resident Evils for the GCN

Also, I hate changing discs. It would be nice not having to change them, but it isn't a killer on playing the game or not. Considering all you get with a PS3, not having to change the disc is nice. It is like a cherry on the top of the whipped cream on top of a tit belonging to a hot chick that wants to fuck you. And does anal.

[epobirs]

I know what they've said...but doesn't it seem like a waste to come out with an add-on player that does nothing else BUT movies? I could understand if one format was better than another (perhaps the Wii format vs. their add-on DVD player???), but why waste the storage space, load times, etc? Could you imagine a version of Fable that actually had 25gb of storage to deal with, or how large in scope a Phantasy Star universe could be?

Personally, I think Microsoft is doing the better end of the deal....releasing their game system well before the competition, and "testing the waters" when they release their HD-DVD addon, but they'd be stupid not to utilize the potential of it, IF (and maybe not if) it wins the format war.

Why is it a waste? It is for one purpose and need only be purchased by those people who already own or intend to own the 360 and want a bargain on an HD-DVD playback system. Those who aren't interested won't be missing anything if they solely play games on their Xbox 360.

If Peter Molyneux tells his division VP that Fable II needs about a gig more space than a single DVD-9 is going to squeeze in, the VP isn't going to insist that stuff be cut from the game. A second DVD is pennies compared to fulfilling the promise of the franchise and its sales potential. Instead, the question is going to be whether Molyneux's crew can come up with more material to take full advantage of the second disc without blowing the schedule severely.

Unless you're just going to load up the disc with lots and lots of 1080i/p res FMV, it isn't easy to use up an entire DVD-9. The Enchant Arms developer got some people worried but it turned out the final game came nowhere near running out of space, nor did it make any great effort towards efficiency of storage.

HD ups the ante for storage requirements but the much greater efficiency of modern codecs over MPEG-2 as used in broadcast HDTV considerably raises the bar for efficient use of storage space. I have an episode of The Sopranos in NTSC pulled off my DVR that comes to nearly 2.5 GBs for an hour of FMV content. A huge amount for a game, especially when more expository animation is relying on ingame engines more and more. (A professional recording engineer could get a good deal more time out of that 2.5 GB by hand tuning the bitrate.) Converting that Sopranos episode to WMV at full quality resulted in a file only 23% as large. I can get a hell of a lot of HD FMV on a single DVD-9.

Offering games on HD-DVD would just be asking for trouble in exchange for very little advantage. Only a limited number of titles would be affected vs. confusion at the retail end. We aren't talking about something like the Sega-CD that promises to open entire new genres for consumers. It just comes down to avoiding disc changes on a small subset of the entire Xbox 360 library.

[CappyCobra]

...
Personally, I think Microsoft is doing the better end of the deal....releasing their game system well before the competition, and "testing the waters" when they release their HD-DVD addon, but they'd be stupid not to utilize the potential of it, IF (and maybe not if) it wins the format war.
Fat chance of that happening. IF they started requiring games using HD-DVD, it would be SegaCD/32X all over again. We all know how that worked out. If you start requiring addons (sans light gun, arcade sticks & that sort), you are essentially dividing up your installed userbase. 3rd parties look at that and say uh-oh & they pass on your system(psuedo-systems).

[graf1k]

So you're saying you'd want games to be released on two different formats with a Blu-Ray PS3 and DVD PS3 being offered? :-s I don't think that's even plausible to consider.

No, I'm saying I personally don't think BDs are needed for games period. At least not yet and probably not in the life span of the PS3. Instead, I'd prefer it if Sony did a DVD drive version for $400 and a PS3/BD Player for $500 or even $600 if they wanted and just use DVD for games regardless. Like I said, with new compression techniques for video, any dev with decent programming skills could put a bunch of HD cutscenes on a disc and sitll have more than enough room left for everything else.

[FriskyTanuki]

No, I'm saying I personally don't think BDs are needed for games period. At least not yet and probably not in the life span of the PS3. Instead, I'd prefer it if Sony did a DVD drive version for $400 and a PS3/BD Player for $500 or even $600 if they wanted and just use DVD for games regardless. Like I said, with new compression techniques for video, any dev with decent programming skills could put a bunch of HD cutscenes on a disc and sitll have more than enough room left for everything else.
I don't think Sony's using it for the disc space, but the anti-piracy protection, which is why they've said that all games will be on Blu-Ray. If space was that huge of an issue, I don't think Sony would've had PS3 DVD-ROM's as a supported PS3 format up until they announced otherwise.

[marten]

You guys seem to be missing one major concept: backwards compatibility.

Why wouldn't they shift their focus to a HD-DVD format? With the 30gb (I misquoted 25, my bad, it's 30 for a DL HD-DVD), you could have both versions on one disc: the 9gb for your DVD users (those who didn't want to buy the add-on), and the 20+gb for the HD-DVD users.

Price differential is probably nominal at best, considering they're already slinging HD-DVD's on Amazon right now at 16 bucks. Game developers probably wouldn't have much issue with upscaling a game to benefit HD-DVD users.

Eventually, compression schemes aren't going to be able to keep pace with what developers want to do, and something will have to give. I can understand multiple DVD's on some genres (RPG's, etc), but could you imagine a multi-DVD....Halo 3? Ghost Recon? Forza? Having to switch discs for multiplayer vs. single player, or to access different tracks, etc?

Microsoft should succeed in the HD-DVD market for exactly that reason...they can put two versions of a game on one disc, and cater to everyone in one fell swoop: those not willing to fork up the money for the addon, and those who will.

[hiccupleftovers]

More multiple disc games:

Star Ocean:Till the End of Time for PS2
Killer7 if I remember correctly for GCN
Resident Evils for the GCN

Also, I hate changing discs. It would be nice not having to change them, but it isn't a killer on playing the game or not. Considering all you get with a PS3, not having to change the disc is nice. It is like a cherry on the top of the whipped cream on top of a tit belonging to a hot chick that wants to fuck you. And does anal.

Don't forget Devil May Cry 2, but really, what's the big deal of changing discs? It happens once and then it's back to smooth sailing. Jeeze you guys are whiny about the wrong things.:roll:

And really, I'm sure any response that I would to the PS3 has already been made so i'm not even going to try.

[opportunity777]

More multiple disc games:

Star Ocean:Till the End of Time for PS2
Killer7 if I remember correctly for GCN
Resident Evils for the GCN

Also, I hate changing discs. It would be nice not having to change them, but it isn't a killer on playing the game or not. Considering all you get with a PS3, not having to change the disc is nice. It is like a cherry on the top of the whipped cream on top of a tit belonging to a hot chick that wants to fuck you. And does anal.

GCN games don't even count because the disc space was far inferior on purpose. A huge reason they did it was to stop piraters. The RE remake games for the GCN could have easily fit on half of a DVD for the PS2 or a quarter of the space on a XBOX disc. Also, I'm willing to bet that less than 15 titles have released on multiple discs for the GameCube, and none of have ever even reached 3 discs (or 1 DVD).

The only disc switching that you could possibly refer to as an annoyance that would make any sense at all is for the Baldur's Gate series of games for the PC. I found that very annoying to have to switch discs in that game because it didn't follow a linear sequence of events for you to switch discs. FF Games for example forced you to switch CDs only when you reached a certain portion of the game, which was not a big deal at all. The switching of discs in Baldur's Gate could happen just from moving to one area to another.

Also, other multi disc games such as DMC2 really didn't need 2 DVDs. Another example of a 2 DVD game is KOF 00/01 for the PS2, which also did not need multiple DVDs. Sometimes, games have been put on multiple discs for various other reasons.

True multi disc games that actually NEED disc switching are few and far between. Imo, the future of multi disc games (if they become necessary in this generation) will be similar to past PC games (1st DVD is the install disc, others are play discs), or they will stick to the path that FF laid out for them.

Many have mentioned that compression technology has changed vastly in the last few years, which can reduce the needed data storage space and increase playback quality. Given these factors, there really is no "cherry on the top" for the PS3 to not have disc switching. It's not a feature that you should be applauding because most games don't need disc switching anyways. The extra data space will probably be pretty useless probably up until the end of the PS3s life span. Anybody can cram garbage to fill up disc space, but there is no real NEED for the game, movie, music, or other industries to move to such a high density, low distribution, and costly format. Sony thought they could push the UMD on people, and I haven't seen that turn in their favor.

[epobirs]

More multiple disc games:

Star Ocean:Till the End of Time for PS2
Killer7 if I remember correctly for GCN
Resident Evils for the GCN

Also, I hate changing discs. It would be nice not having to change them, but it isn't a killer on playing the game or not. Considering all you get with a PS3, not having to change the disc is nice. It is like a cherry on the top of the whipped cream on top of a tit belonging to a hot chick that wants to fuck you. And does anal.

Star Ocean: Til The End of Time does not fill an entire DVD-9. Both discs are DVD-5s with only 4.3 GB usage. The whole game could easily fit on a single DVD-9, especially since a good deal of material from the first disc is duplicated on the second. (Lest anyone think the second layer is being ignored by my computer, the main presentation DVD of 'A Bug's Life' extended edition reads as 7.89 GB used on the disc. I don't have GT4 but it is one of the few PS2 games to use both layers and comes in at over 6 GB if anyone cares to test their ability to derive disc properties.) Enix made a choice for a simpler disc design with one disc change required of the user. The choice not to have it all on a single DVD may have been more aesthetic than anything else. The US release was promoted ont he basis of having a lot of added goodies from the Japanes 'Director's Cut' of the game. Having two DVDs emphasized the extensive content for a minor cost.

That is very common with multi-CD RPGs on the PS1. You want to be able to boot from the new disc after the change so a lot of space goes to reproduce the game except for those portion no longer needed after the first disc has concluded. This means all of the recurring artwork, music, etc. If you took the multi-CD FFVII and put it on a DVD (supposing you had a machine that would run PS1 code from DVDs) it would take up a lot less space than the four PS1 CDs would lead people to expect. Take away the FMV and it all fits easily on a single CD. Square could do a PSP version with a graphic overhaul and completely redone FMV but with little worry of it not fitting on a single UMD.

GCN games are hardly good examples. Nintendo had full access to the well established and inexpensive DVD format at the time they froze the GameCube design. They instead chose to go with mini-DVDs that only delivered 1.5 GB per disc. So yeah, a few GCN games ran to two discs. If you look at it from another perspective, it's pretty remarkable how few GameCube games needed a second disc. Developers had to work a bit harder on storage efficiency but by and large nobody felt the average GameCube version of a multiplatform game was lacking in features due to storage limitations. It wasn't like the days of the PS1 and N64 where the N64 version of a game might have better visual effect but be completely lacking in pre-rendered FMV and extensive orchestrated music. RE2 on the N64 was the big exception as ROM capacity growth and codec advances allowed for a glimpse of what that machine might have offered if it weren't so severely constrained on storage compared to the PS1.

[Dr Mario Kart]

Peter Molyneux
fulfilling the promise of the franchise and its sales potential.
I think you couldve come up with a better example ;)

[stag8603]

po·ten·tial-
Capable of being but not yet in existence

Fuck that. I want a console with good shit already. Like (for ME) the 360. When I see a few games that I can't buy for the 360 that I want, I will think about buying a PS3. I'm not spending 5 or 6 hundred bucks for "potential".

yeaaah.

[dpatel]

Fuck that. I want a console with good shit already. Like (for ME) the 360. When I see a few games that I can't buy for the 360 that I want, I will think about buying a PS3. I'm not spending 5 or 6 hundred bucks for "potential".

yeaaah.

you do realize that every console is bought with its potential in mind. Even that 360 of yours. Sure it has stuff you want on it now, but you would probably be pretty pissed if nothing 360 related was released in the future. You are paying for the stuff out now and the potential of it getting good games. People weren't lining up during xmas just to play the handful of launch games that the 360 had. They were paying for the 360 with the thought that it would get more games in the future.

[epobirs]

You guys seem to be missing one major concept: backwards compatibility.

Why wouldn't they shift their focus to a HD-DVD format? With the 30gb (I misquoted 25, my bad, it's 30 for a DL HD-DVD), you could have both versions on one disc: the 9gb for your DVD users (those who didn't want to buy the add-on), and the 20+gb for the HD-DVD users.

Price differential is probably nominal at best, considering they're already slinging HD-DVD's on Amazon right now at 16 bucks. Game developers probably wouldn't have much issue with upscaling a game to benefit HD-DVD users.

Eventually, compression schemes aren't going to be able to keep pace with what developers want to do, and something will have to give. I can understand multiple DVD's on some genres (RPG's, etc), but could you imagine a multi-DVD....Halo 3? Ghost Recon? Forza? Having to switch discs for multiplayer vs. single player, or to access different tracks, etc?

Microsoft should succeed in the HD-DVD market for exactly that reason...they can put two versions of a game on one disc, and cater to everyone in one fell swoop: those not willing to fork up the money for the addon, and those who will.

You're missing your own point. If the reason for putting a game on HD-DVD is to avoid multiple DVDs for the biggest games, then using a hybrid HD-DVD/DVD disc won't solve the problem. You're still going to need the aditional DVDs for that portion of the hybrid which doesn't fit in the capacity of a single DVD-9.

But you'll have LESS capacity on the HD-DVD side than you will on those two or more DVDs. Despite a lot of promises the HD-DVD folks have only been able to make certain things work outside the laboratory. Hybrid DVD/HD-DVD discs are double-sided. DVD on one side and HD-DVD on the other. But the DVD side screws up some of the tolerances required for the second layer of HD-DVD, so the hybrids are limited to 15GB. This means most of the hybrid movies shipped so far have just the movie in HD and all the additional features in standard def on the DVD side. Whoops.

And what do you mean by 'upscaling a game?' Xbox 360 games are already in HD. Most target 720p as their preferred mode, not because of storage capacity but because of rendering throughput. You can do 1080i games on the 360 but you'll be giving up so much of your polygon count that the choice is questionable.

Do you mean additional content to use up the space? What is there worth millions of dollars of the develoeprs time and effort that wouldn't want ot just put on multiple DVDs and have it go out to everybody? Cutting off those who don't buy the DVD drive form access tot he full content would be insane unless the developer is charging a serious premium. In case you haven't noticed, they tend to get paid for additional content offered on Xbox Live.

And there is the additional matter of retailer support. The idea of having two SKUs of the same game on the same platform with the difference between them confusing to average shoppers is not an enticing pitch. The HD-DVD add-on owners would have to become a really major portion of overall Xbox 360 ownership. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that to come about.

There is a reason why RPGs are the dominat genre for games requiring multiple discs. They are the biggest users of FMV sequences. These are very data intensive and more often than not only appear once in the course of the game. Most other genres use far less FMV and are more inclined to do more with ingame engine animation. Multiplayer modes tend to reuse the art assets from the single player portion of the game and the only thing distiguishing the mode is the code driving it. Such code is tiny compared to a good set of unique textures for one level of a game and is extremely unlikey to cause the need for a second disc.

As for tracks in something like Forza, that again depends on the use of unique art assets for that track. If you want the additional art assets you'll run the risk of growing to overrun a single disc or require caching from hard drive. In either case this is a lot of work for the develper and there is no way in hell they're going to do it for just the HD-DVD add-on buyers. Also, isn't it just as likely that the game would shipped on a stuffed full disc and any additional content be sold separately? In which case you'll need the hard drive or a disc switch regardless.

[epobirs]

I think you couldve come up with a better example ;)

Your opinion of the famous developer in question is entirely beside the point. Insert anybody you favor. If Miyamoto says he needs a second DVD for his Wii epic, does Iwata tell him to forget it and cut stuff from the game? Or does he tell Miyamoto, 'You've got it but make the most of it?"

[Skelah]

I didnt think about the hd dvd is this sonys way of trying to win that battle? by packaging it with the ps3?
That does seem pretty fucked .


I was real exited about the ps3 but from the horrible price tag and everytime someone over there opens there mouth there talking me out of caring about ps3 they should stfu or get someone to bring them customers not scare them.

'potential' from #1 to potential damn thats just retarded.

Im not sure what im gonna do at this point i just know im waiting awhile..and if u think about it these high price systems could realy be hurting these companys in the long run..people who just got into games around the ps2 xbox timeline could be turned to steping away from gaming all togeather.

[Dr Mario Kart]

Your opinion of the famous developer in question is entirely beside the point. Insert anybody you favor. If Miyamoto says he needs a second DVD for his Wii epic, does Iwata tell him to forget it and cut stuff from the game? Or does he tell Miyamoto, 'You've got it but make the most of it?"

Certainly game development isnt that clear cut. Besides money and time, I bet theres all sorts of politics and various variables

And in some of those cases, stuff probably gets cut. Its not often that a second disc is needed so we dont often have this exact situation where someone wants a second disc and isnt allowed to have it, but its not unreasonable to believe that it has happened before.

[mkg12]

I don't think the price for the PS3 is that bad. People are willing to fork out big bucks for an MP3 player and all they do is play audio and maybe video now.

[stag8603]

you do realize that every console is bought with its potential in mind. Even that 360 of yours. Sure it has stuff you want on it now, but you would probably be pretty pissed if nothing 360 related was released in the future. You are paying for the stuff out now and the potential of it getting good games. People weren't lining up during xmas just to play the handful of launch games that the 360 had. They were paying for the 360 with the thought that it would get more games in the future.

yeah, every console is bought with potential in mind. when i buy a console i know (and hope) it is going to be good now and later. i don't want it to be good just now or just later. but, it sounds to me like sony is saying that you are paying a high price for a PS3 based on the possibility that there may be good things coming. i would much rather have them say that i would be paying that much money for having the best console now and later. not for having a console that is capable of being the best, but may not be.

i guess i just don't like somebody wanting me to pay $500-$600 for something that they can't even guarantee will be that good, today or tomorrow.

i don't know what i just said. its like 4 o'clock in the a.m. and i should go to bed. i hope it made some sense...

[suko_32]

The only thing I'm thinking, and it's something most of us can't say for sure, is what the mainstream gamers think of all this.

[Metal Boss]

mmm, quotations taken out of context are yummy.

[botticus]

I know what they've said...but doesn't it seem like a waste to come out with an add-on player that does nothing else BUT movies? I could understand if one format was better than another (perhaps the Wii format vs. their add-on DVD player???), but why waste the storage space, load times, etc? Could you imagine a version of Fable that actually had 25gb of storage to deal with, or how large in scope a Phantasy Star universe could be?

THey can't do that unless they started releasing two versions of games, one on DVD and one on HD-DVD, otherwise half the userbase can't play them. So, no, the add-on will just play movies.

They're just doing what Sony's doing. "Look, it's a cheap next-gen DVD player!" - Because for $100 or whatever it will be, that is cheap as hell, for people who already own 360s.

[epobirs]

Certainly game development isnt that clear cut. Besides money and time, I bet theres all sorts of politics and various variables

And in some of those cases, stuff probably gets cut. Its not often that a second disc is needed so we dont often have this exact situation where someone wants a second disc and isnt allowed to have it, but its not unreasonable to believe that it has happened before.

Actually, I've been in that exact situation. The issue was the number of 3.5" floppies that would make up the game, since this was back in the late 80s but most of the considerations were the same. It makes a hell of a difference if the person asking has a good track record and the project has high expectations.

If Fable II or the next Zelda (entirely new for the Wii) requires a second DVD, the guy in charge isn't going to hesitate to approve it. Regardless of the disappointment people had with Fable, it did excellent business. Likewise, any Zelda game is going to sell enough units on the promise alone to justify the nickels and dimes for the second disc, even if by some extraordinary turn of events the game is found to be mediocre and unworthy of the franchise.

Additional capacity was a much harder request to make back in the ROM cart days. With optical disc, one you decide to have a seond one you get the full capacity to exploit. With mask ROMs you paid for every megabit but you couldn't buy by the megabit. You don't want to have a board for every possible configuration, so you just offer a select few. On the SNES, if you exceeded 8 Mb, the next increment up was 12 Mb. Even if all you needed was 10 Mb it wasn't acceptable for Nintendo to offer a board for that. Since the cost of going from 8 Mb to 12 Mb upped the production cost considerably, by several dollars, it came down to whether game could be tighter or some investment should be made for some additional content to get the full value of the ROM that was being paid for. (If you've ever noticed the oddball sizes of some downloaded ROMs for emulator use, it because the actual cart was padded out with nulls. Either all zeros or ones or just a blank area on the mask.)

With optical media the disc cost is trivial for any big budget game. The platform owners don't ding the publisher for additional royalties after the first disc, so the additional cost per finished game package is less than a buck for orders of a quarter-million or more. But it can be a lot of money for a little import localizer whose has to take out a line of credit any time they send a game to production.

If the schedule isn't seriously threatened and the budget is already past $10 million, adding another megabuck to crank out some more content to fill the additional disc is a good investment for more than one reason. Not only is the value of the game raised to better justify the greater manufacture cost, it avoids having consumers wonder why the second disc is mostly empty. No matter how well your game was compressed and squeezed, if it only uses a small portion of a second disc, people get ornery. So if that second disc will make or break the game, you may have to put some more stuff on there just to create a better appearance. Things like 'Making of' documentaries are very useful for that sort of thing.

[MSI Magus]

No, I'm saying I personally don't think BDs are needed for games period. At least not yet and probably not in the life span of the PS3. Instead, I'd prefer it if Sony did a DVD drive version for $400 and a PS3/BD Player for $500 or even $600 if they wanted and just use DVD for games regardless. Like I said, with new compression techniques for video, any dev with decent programming skills could put a bunch of HD cutscenes on a disc and sitll have more than enough room left for everything else.

Dead on. This is why so many gamers are so fucking pissed off. The Blue Ray Player jacked the price of the system up hundreds of dollars. Online play and hard drives many debate if they belong in console gaming, and many as a result say we are being charged an extra $200 for them. But HDs and Online Play atleast have use for gamers, they are things many gamers will use and in the long run HAD to be implanted. Blue Ray on the other hand is not, Blue Ray is an added feature that no matter how you try and spin it is being forced down our throats. Sony could have very easily made the PS2 play DVD games or SOME other format and released that system as a $400 model, then tossed in a blue Ray Player in a second $600 model that does NOTHING for games but helps push their BR Player and gives PS3 owners an option.

Funny thing is that if Sony would have done things this way I might have looked at the $600 system and thought hmph good value and waited and bought it after a price drop instead of the core system. But because they did things this way from the start again I say fuck them.

[The Mana Knight]

"The price of the PS3 is high... But you’re paying for potential," - Sony CEO Howard Stinger

My response. Fuck Potential. When I buy a product I expect it to be quality, I expect it to be complete and I expect it to be fair. I buy consoles to play great games.

"When you bring into new technology, do you go for a cheaper transitional [product], or do you take a chance on future-proof, higher technology which will keep you going for many, many years?" he stated."

Odd, Nintendo is bringing in not only new technology but new idea's that have a larger chance of lasting many years then Sony's simple graphic upgrade does.

His final comment was on how Movie execs are debating if they want to use Blue Ray or Toshiba’s rival HD-DVD format. This again just show's that Playstation 3 isn't what is important to them at this point, they are taking gamers for granted. Sony honestly thinks we will buy whatever they slap the Playstation name on and this really pisses me off. The playstation 3 is basicaly Sony's platform to make Blue Ray a winner and they dont care what gamers have to say.

I know we see topics like this all the time but it really pisses me off. Gamers are upset and each and every single person at Sony who can actually do something instead just keeps taking this we know best, we are making quality attitude while shoving Blue Ray down our thoats.

Again I say fuck Sony.
Since you said blue-ray, and not blu-ray, you just lost all my creditability.

Sony must seem to care to me, if they continue expanding their first party studios and publish many games their self. IMO, their games, along with FFXIII, FF versus XIII, MGS4, DMC4, SMT IV, etc. already make it worth $600. Although I support Sony, I like MS just as much and I plan to give them my support too.

[MarioColbert]

<physics joke>

You don't pay for potential. You pay for current.

</physics joke>
Nobody gave this much love, but this is a very good joke, although the "physics" tags ruined it for me. I did, however, read it to my friend at the office, and he had the same look on his face when he first heard Mitch Hedberg's timless "man.. you really like TIDE..." before things "clicked" in his head, and he was so happy that there WAS a joke, and that he DID figure it out (all by himself), that he would laugh not only at the joke, but also at the feeling of badassery that overwhelmed his ego.

If that wasn't enough, I also agree with radjago's "this is true for every system" remark, because that was the first thing that went through my head when I've read it.

In all fairness, the one system that is MOST concerned with "potential" is Nintendo's Wii, just as much as Nintendo's DS was also a "potenetial" payment as well. There are no guarantees that a system will succeed (see Dreamcast and N64), and the market is relatively fuckin' huge. What I mean by that is that you can have a lot of people buying PS3, and it still not performing as well as Sony is hoping to. The point is: Nintendo's "gamble" with DS has more than paid off, so us Nintendo fanboys are glowing with glee at the prospect of our company's vision for the next console.

The fact that their potential may be through the roof, you still need kinetic energy to achieve impact (or to perform work which involves making me spend $600 on a PS3), which is achieved via games that they showcase. At the present, Sony can not begin to compete with Wii (a.k.a. We Gots Us Games For Launch) and Xbox360 (a.k.a. We're about to have as many good games as Wii will have for launch).

OH YEAH!


Since you said blue-ray, and not blu-ray, you just lost all my creditability.

If you want to have some credibility to your own statements, you may want to make sure that when making fun of someone's spelling error, your spelling remains correct. At least MSI Magus could say that Sony uses a BLUE RAY LASER in their High Definition disc form, rendring his statement virtually error-free. You, Mr. Samurai T, have said that he lost all your credit ability, and since I've never heard of a Samurai T credit card, I doubt that he would care too much. Your credit ability is not at all that special.

[MSI Magus]

Since you said blue-ray, and not blu-ray, you just lost all my creditability.

Sony must seem to care to me, if they continue expanding their first party studios and publish many games their self. IMO, their games, along with FFXIII, FF versus XIII, MGS4, DMC4, SMT IV, etc. already make it worth $600. Although I support Sony, I like MS just as much and I plan to give them my support too.

So I say blue and not blu so I have no credibilty....ya that doesn't sound fanboyish or crazed at all.

[opportunity777]

So I say blue and not blu so I have no credibilty....ya that doesn't sound fanboyish or crazed at all.

I think he was being sarcastic :roll:

[HumanSnatcher]

I think he was being sarcastic :roll:

No, this isn't the first time that fanboy there has said that. I'm sorry you're a total dumbass if you get so damn upset over simple spelling.

[MSI Magus]

Ya seeing as right after he went on to talk about how the system is worth owning for a few games....guessing he wasnt being sarcastic.

[asianxcore]

I didnt think about the hd dvd is this sonys way of trying to win that battle? by packaging it with the ps3?
That does seem pretty fucked .

they did it with the PS2, it's nothing new. when that console came out, I believe it was the cheapest DVD player am I correct? (someone correct me if I'm wrong). the difference between then and now, is that the jump from VHS to DVD was huge. it was definitely an upgrade. I would say people are more inclined to buy something with a feature already built inside. Compared to a product that can do other things IF you buy a seperate attachment. We'll see how the HD-DVD attachment on the 360 goes against the built in Blu-Ray though.

with the whole blu-ray/HD-DVD thing, it relies on too many things. it relies on DVD collectors who have steady collections (mine is going over 500), who want to buy a new format. are most DVD collectors looking to replace their entire collections with this format? I don't think so, but I know many that are buying up every HD-DVD or blu-ray movie they can.

it also relies on the fact that by the time the PS3 comes out or even after, everyone will have a HDTV set. they are getting cheap, heck mine cost double of what is being offered in a larger size. this is just a year after I bought it. that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone will run out to get one. it also relies on the fact that "Joe Schmoe" (Home Theater dudes aside) is ready and wanting to pay $40 for a movie.

selling 360s at work, I do get a middle ground. i get almost the same amount of people who are running their 360s through a SD set as opposed to an HD set. if they care so much about how the graphics look incredible on these 360 displays, why not go the extra mile to make your system look like that? well, I believe it's just most of the general public doesn't have a need for an HDTV at this point in time. there are very few HD channels (I only find myself watching ESPN), and most of the general public doesn't need HD quality on their DVDs, as long as it's not fuzzy as a VHS tape and they can play it over and over, they are fine.

I'm not saying I won't get a PS3 when MGS4 comes out, or if Assassin's Creed stays a PS3 exclusive. What I am saying is that I believe Sony finally feels competition on their backs. While it's nice that we have 3 systems that everyone feels has potential and or they are excited about. It just seems to me that a lot of Sony's decisions just seem on the fly and a way just to squash doubters.

..and just a question because I'm confused. will the PS3 be able to output 1080p WITHOUT the HDMI input?

[MSI Magus]

Its true that the PS2 had a DVD built in and many got it because it was a cheap DVD player, hell the PS2 was my DVD player untill just a month ago. And it is true that VHS to DVD was a bigger jump, however. Its wrong to think that this makes it ok with the PS3 because there is a larger price difference. The PS2 was only $300 which is what I believe the PSX was and systems before at least were still $200. THat means that the cost was only a $100 jump or 1/3rd. Now with the Playstation 3 we are seeing a $300 jump which is a whole 100%....thats just unaccceptable.

[opportunity777]

No, this isn't the first time that fanboy there has said that. I'm sorry you're a total dumbass if you get so damn upset over simple spelling.

Ah well I was trying to be hopeful that he was being sarcastic, otherwise it's a pretty ridiculous thing to say :D

[HumanSnatcher]

Ah well I was trying to be hopeful that he was being sarcastic, otherwise it's a pretty ridiculous thing to say :D

Tell me about it. And from now on, I'm gonna call it blue-ray, just to piss him off.

[dragonxxiv]

With the technology so sensitive and delicate, PS3 is bound to have some problems---does anyone remember the disc errors with the PS2. Unless you are filthy rich, a hardcore gamer, or a tech geek, you should probably hold off a year or two before getting the ps3---- or just buy the PS3 at Costco and if there is a problem---- they will give you an exchange or a full refund within a time period of 2 years.

[MSI Magus]

With the technology so sensitive and delicate, PS3 is bound to have some problems---does anyone remember the disc errors with the PS2. Unless you are filthy rich, a hardcore gamer, or a tech geek, you should probably hold off a year or two before getting the ps3---- or just buy the PS3 at Costco and if there is a problem---- they will give you an exchange or a full refund within a time period of 2 years.

Sony just has a history of releasing shitty products anyways. Nintendo is really the only company whom I would even consider buying a launch console from.

[lordwow]

That sounds like going out on a date to a fancy resturaunt.

You're not paying for the food... you're paying for the potential...

[camoor]

That sounds like going out on a date to a fancy resturaunt.

You're not paying for the food... you're paying for the potential...

Buying a PS3 on launch day is pretty much the polar opposite of going out on a date.

[Sleepkyng]

i think at the end of the day - $600 is just a nasty price point - and the xbox360 had a big jump on the wii - but you know when the average consumer sees $600 vs. $250 ($200?) - i mean really...

[Grave_Addiction]

Use them emoticons, damn it. :cry:

In all seriousness, of course sony doesn't give a shit about gamers. They want you to buy their product, which is going to use Blue-Ray. If you feel outraged, send a message by spending your money elsewhere. The only way Blue Ray is going to be "shoved down your throat" is if you open your mouth and let it.

Good point. I just hope DVD wins the new format war. How badass would that be?

[Zoglog]

Nintendo Wii = Cheap price, but cheap gimmick that ends up controlling like crap

Xbox 360 = Pimping out retarded online element that wears away soon, and games that require Patches like PC(Why the fuck would I care about gamerscore or gamerpics?)

Sony PS3 = Too ambitiously priced and spec'ed for gamers and full of useless bullshit hype.

So tell me where anyone is worth being a fanboy for besides being a retarded fanboy for fanboy's sake?

My god i'm so sick of these retarded fanboy news posts. If you don't like a console, don't buy it ... Let the people who like it buy it and enjoy it. Yeah we get the point already retards, the PS3 is expensive....

[Strell]

Nintendo Wii = Cheap price, but cheap gimmick that ends up controlling like crap

Xbox 360 = Pimping out retarded online element that wears away soon, and games that require Patches like PC(Why the fuck would I care about gamerscore or gamerpics?)

Sony PS3 = Too ambitiously priced and spec'ed for gamers and full of useless bullshit hype.

So tell me where anyone is worth being a fanboy for besides being a retarded fanboy for fanboy's sake?

Did you really just say that after the first three statements?

[willardhaven]

Everyone with an opinion is a fanboy it seems.

Complaining is the American way, the same people who are defending PS3's price are probably whining about gasoline prices everyday.

You aren't special because you're willing to pay more for Sony's crap, you're just more foolhardy.

Console wars are fun, keep this thread moving.

[Maynard]

i just got home from basketball and i'm really really sweaty, and oh man my balls are sweaty too.

[Metal Boss]

i just got home from basketball and i'm really really sweaty, and oh man my balls are sweaty too.


How can you enjoy basketball when you're playing with that overpriced orange rubber ball? Psh, they talk the talk, but football is a much better value for what you're getting.