Quantcast Competitive Corner: How long are you willing to develop the metagame? - Cheap Ass Gamer
Check out the Price Tracker to see all of today's price drops! Follow CAG USA Video Game Deals on Twitter CAG Facebook CAG RSS Feed
Home

Search Bar

This search bar is a powerful tool for navigating CAG. You can use it to find the lowest prices on games, trade-in values, search members, forum and blog topics, and much more.

After searching for a game title, click the icon to pop-up a window with pricing information.

After typing in what you are looking for, you can filter your results by clicking on one of the tabs that pops up from the top of the search bar.

Tips

Looking for a game on a specific platform? Type in the platform name with the title!
Example: guitar hero 360

You don't need to click a pop-up tab to filter results. Just type what you are looking for right into the search bar.
Example: gears of war prices
Example: ninjatown review

Go Back   Cheap Ass Gamer > Blogs > kainzero's Blog > Competitive Corner: How long are you willing to develop the metagame?
kainzero's Avatar

Competitive Corner: How long are you willing to develop the metagame?

By kainzero 02-01-2010 12:00 PM
709
views

Blizzard definitely spent more time developing the software part of the game.

I was reading a thread on Shoryuken that basically complains about SF4 making it way too easy for new players to notch wins.

One point that came up was the mentality people had when playing a game. Back then when a dominating strategy was conceived, top players would do their best to find a way around it. They'd work hard and did whatever it took, even if it meant executing some complex strategy, and the game would develop in that way.

Nowadays, at the very slightest nuance that a strategy might be too good, we call for patches. Why bother changing how we play when we can just bitch to the developers to make a change? Or, we might just even stop playing since we feel that the game has been figured out and stale.

I rag on the DoA series all the time, but honestly, it's really not that bad of a game. The most common complaint is that you can counter of a stun, and because of that, you can "counter everything." That's almost like saying in SF3:3S, you just parry everything and the game is real easy, yet we don't see too many parries at high level competition. In reality, if you guess wrong on a counter, you eat a ton more damage on the follow up, and you can even time it right to re-stun them. It ends up being a really fast paced sequential mind game sequence.

But everyone gave up. "Counters are too dominating," and except for the few top level, everyone has really given up on the game, and we'll never know what would've become of it.

Similarly, let's look at Starcraft. The amount of strategy development in that game in the last few years has been insane. 3 years ago, the trick of stacking mutalisks all at once was discovered.


Even more incredible, this was 9 years after the game was released! And instead of calling for the game to be rebalanced, it was accepted as a viable strategy, and strategies were developed to be able to counter it properly, and no one has skipped a beat. What could've been thought of as a dominant strategy was extensively researched and tested and battle back.

The strange thing is, it seems almost arbitrary as to whether gamers will choose whether or not to accept the strategy as overpowered and just quit straight out, or to hammer through it and create counter-strategies.

Either way, it's something about the next time you play competitively. Is this strategy really THAT dominating? How much work will you do to neutralize it? I can say for sure, that low/mid-level players often point at a system's imbalance, where as the top-level players are usually hard at work and debunk so many of those myths that pervade the scene. For all the flak SF4 Sagat gets, there are very few, if any, top-level tournament winning Sagats in the US...

 Comments (Total Comments: 12)  

Don illmatix's Avatar
Defend Sagat...i DARE you.....

You trying to say is isnt overpowered? that one of his simple bread and butter combos doesnt deal as much damage as most players ultras??

he's OVERPOWERED!
I'm no expert on the subject, but hasn't Starcraft been tweaked and rebalanced multiple times over the years? Correct me if I'm wrong. It's interesting that you'd use that as an example.
Schmackledorf's Avatar
The reason patches and everything are called for is because a lot of people don't have or don't want to commit the time to figuring out ways to gets around some strategies, much like what your title says. Yes, you can spend time to find ways around it if you want, but a lot of people have families to spend time with, jobs, other games they want to get to, etc.; if they have limited time and aren't really competitive about a game, I think it's understandable to not want to play a game if there's some tactic employed by a ton of people. Heck, I played Brutal Legend online some, and about 8 or 9 out of 10 people I played on there would try and rush with Fire Barons, and that's not even a strategy intense game. Sure, I found a better strategy and was able to win nearly every time, but just having to fight the same concept over and over and over and over became stale and boring, so I would have been more than fine if they patched that to dissuade people from doing it.

I think the best way to set up multiplayer would be to divide everyone between the people that are competitive about a game and will find different strategies, and those that are looking for a more casual experience. I think that could be said for nearly any game, really.
kainzero's Avatar
@Don Illmatix: He's easily not overpowered, and many consider him to be the weakest top tier in any fighting game. Again, just look at all the tournament results, you'll see Sagat doesn't have a lot of first place finishes.

@Cry Havoc: The last major balance patch was released in 2001. All subsequent patches have added either functionality or removed bugs and potential game crashes.
lowlowgoodprice's Avatar
hurrah starcraft rulz
its because the world has sunk into a place of only cartmans where they suck bitch complain and then they sulk to their mothers... holy crap is it just me or their is a lot of 10yrs kids or something playing codmw2 wtfffff!?
@kainzero: Well then, it was released in 1998, so it took 3 years for them to balance it the way it is now. Why is that ok for starcraft, but not for fighting games? If a game is unbalanced, it only makes sense to fix it.

I just don't understand the hate for patches. If competitive players are so great at finding alternative strategies, then patches shouldn't matter because they'll find a new way to do things after a patch, no? Seems to me it would just keep them on their toes to be creative.
LostRoad's Avatar
I think is is unfair to compare RTS to fighters. There is a lot more depth in a rts than any fighter and to find something that is broken or unbalanced in one will require more time, making sure it is not just a good new strategy or a rush that can not be countered. As compared to fighters that could have infinite loops or unbalanced combo damage.

I think the main reason though we will continue to see more patches for fighters is because they have to keep the causal crowd interested in them. Most if not all companies know that playing to their tournament players is a small market share, sure they can help build hype for a game and get more people playing but if they game is not player friendly people will just move on even quicker than they do right now with games. Just look at 3S as compared to SFIV. 3S is a much better game but not as open to newer players where SFIV is very much made for newer players.
kainzero's Avatar
@Schmakledorf: Well, I kind of disagree. One of the common complaints in SF4 was Ken doing flaming uppercuts all the time. I'd destroy them every single time, but they would get wins against people not too accustomed to the game and it led to many complaints. In the grand scheme of things, however, Ken is one of the worst characters in the game, and nerfing the uppercut is really just handicapping him even more.

Honestly, with information nowadays, it is so easy to find good strategies, and that's what I relish when I play a game. I've hardly scratched the surface of Tekken 6, but when I fire it up I know I just have tons to learn. You don't have to be an ace to enjoy everything, you can also enjoy the path of learning to get better.

@Cry Havoc
: I'm not saying that all patches are bad. There's a point in a game when people either work harder or demand changes in the game.

I used to play an RTS called Company of Heroes, and there was a really broken unit called the Kangaroo Carrier that you could put infantry units inside. It was broken because all the troops inside it could fire, they could fire at 100% accuracy, they could use abilities inside, it was fast and had tons of HP and armor, and was a cheap unit to produce. Also, when the thing blew up, all the infantry inside walked out with perfect health and could retreat back to base easily.

The only way to stop this would be to have several AT guns, plant mines everywhere, AND have units available to ambush on the retreat path. The only problem is, mobility is very important in that game and you would not be able to know what retreat path they would take, and you would have to move slowly.

I got sick of it and stopped playing.

Conversely, in a previous patch, there was controversy surrounding the unit called the T17. Massing T17s was a common strategy since were like glass cannons; tons of firepower, very little armor. Used properly, they had the potential to end the game with specific timing.

People found ways to counter it though, and I thought it was a good strategy but not overpowering. The masses complained, however, and the T17 was nerfed and hardly sees any action now.

@LostRoad: Well, I don't know. I mean people had death combos in SFII HF but that's pretty balanced. And I'm not too sure we'll see patches anyway, it's just that I tend to see people calling for them prematurely.

As for the 3S / SF4 comparison and which is a better game, let's not go there. There are a lot of issues with 3S in terms of release timing and characters that have led to its unpopularity, way more so than the gameplay elements.
LostRoad's Avatar
You missed my point completely. Companies need to cater to the larger market share. Of course we won't see anything done for SFII why would we when compared to the other online fighters the user base for that game is very low. Why would they waste the time on a game with a low player base? At the end of the day it will always be about money, if doing something that the larger player base asks for could result in more sales of future tittles hell yes they will do it, turning their back on their core in an instant.

While patches may be called for prematurely, if it can garner more sales on upcoming tittles that is all that matters.
kainzero's Avatar
@LostRoad: I mentioned SF2, because you said things about infinite loops and death combos, but people just played through it and accepted it as part of the game. In fact, people thought you were awesome if you could do them.

I complained about people calling for patches, and not the actual patch. I actually almost never see any patches for fighting games and they usually come very early in its lifecycle. We got several quick patches when SC4 came out and they removed things like the Ivy infinite and a couple of combos, but it turned into Hilde Calibur 4 and Namco's not doing anything.

More often than not we'll just see brand new versions of games instead of just a straight patch, and everyone usually adopts them because it's new, and the company is happy because they gained a ton of money on an incremental update.
call me a sc noob, but that screenshot reminded me of metriod or some side scroller shooter (I'm guessing the graphics were upgraded?)
Halo05's Avatar
That's a screen shot from a pre-release version of Starcraft (thank god, it looks turrrrrible).

Recent Blog Entries by kainzero
Go Back  Cheap Ass Gamer > Blogs > kainzero's Blog > Competitive Corner: How long are you willing to develop the metagame?

Contact us
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:48 AM.