Honestly, I do think they should just get rid of deductions period. It just makes things too complicated. Drop all these deductions and lower each bracket's rate some to compensate so people (especially in the lower and middle brackets) aren't paying more.

Get rid of tax returns and the racket business around them. End of year just fill out a form based on your W2 income and any other income you had and pay any taxes from income that didn't have taxes withheld by an employer.

But that will never happen. So yeah, best we can hope for is capping things like mortgage interest deductions at some amount so the wealthy don't benefit more from it than the average Joe. Someone buying huge, expensive houses doesn't need the break.

Originally Posted by egofed I care because right is right and wrong is wrong. Just because something makes sense to you, does not make it morally just. Javery shouldn't have to care about my situation.

Yeah but why do you care so hard? Why is this so important to you, moreso over issues of social justice involving people who are truly hurting (whether they be starving, beaten, or worse)

Why are you so concerned with Javery's plight, is the economic situation that rosy for your own family that you can afford to care about whether some rich lawyer will be able to pay for his house in a select area and private school for his two kids etc etc

What about the whole "all men are created equal" thing? Equal application of policy is all I ask. True justice would require the same amount from every person, not just a progressive tax percentage. Rules based on perceived need should not trump rules based on true fairness and justice.

The problem is a lot of Americans in the lower and middle classes are just as selfish and self focused as the wealthy.

People just don't give much of a shit about others, and think everyone should work hard and get by on their own or not. There's a severe lack of empathy.

The rich just care about making as much money as they can and keeping as much of it as they can. And much of the working and middle class are just bitter from working hard to just get by and can't stomach the though of people getting "handouts" while they're working hard. They can't accept that not everyone had the opportunities they did to even be successful enough to get by, and have delusions that most people on public assistance are living easier lives with the same or more luxuries than they can afford without having to work hard.

Originally Posted by dmaul1114 We'll never have nice things in this country as people are greedy selfish s and not willing to pay for it. So we have shitty roads, god awful often not worth bothering with public transit (I'd killl for a high speed rail system), pathetic internet speeds that way pay more for vs. other countries, a terrible health care/health insurance system and on down the line. Along with all the shitty elements of our culture--terrible food, obesity, anti-intellectualism, raging consumerism, idolization of celebrities and athletes etc. I'm not so sure why people are so pro-USA. Lot's of other countries that do a lot of things better and I'd be gone in a second if/when I can work out career and language barrier issues.

this is why I laugh whenever someone talks about an American equivalent of the German autobahn. You really want to drive on American highways doing 100+ mph? I know I wouldn't, I can't imagine hitting some of these holes around here going that fast. Would seriously up the alignment of your wheels if nothing else.

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Originally Posted by egofed What about the whole "all men are created equal" thing? Equal application of policy is all I ask. True justice would require the same amount from every person, not just a progressive tax percentage. Rules based on perceived need should not trump rules based on true fairness and justice.

Yeah but worrying about expiring tax cuts on the rich is like worrying about literacy rates in Somalia.

Why should we even care, we have real problems! It's such a dopey issue for 99% of the population to even pay attention to much less care about.

I like dmaul's alternative plan as well. My life is pretty sweet, camoor. I am very fortunate with an awesome family, girlfriend, and friends. My hobbies are pretty inexpensive and I have a ton of free time to partake in them. I made some mistakes in the stock market...but have a pretty sizable nest egg that I saved from my less than stellar salary. My job provides me the opportunity to help people. I hope to fight injustice in every way that I see it. Taxing anybody, rich or poor, at such levels is wrong to me. I want the inefficiencies of government dealt with BEFORE we decide to raise taxes. Prove to me that the government is not wasting my money, then ask for more.

Originally Posted by dmaul1114 The problem is a lot of Americans in the lower and middle classes are just as selfish and self focused as the wealthy. People just don't give much of a shit about others, and think everyone should work hard and get by on their own or not. There's a severe lack of empathy. The rich just care about making as much money as they can and keeping as much of it as they can. And much of the working and middle class are just bitter from working hard to just get by and can't stomach the though of people getting "handouts" while they're working hard. They can't accept that not everyone had the opportunities they did to even be successful enough to get by, and have delusions that most people on public assistance are living easier lives with the same or more luxuries than they can afford without having to work hard.

Pretty much, and the sad thing is that although you'd think that in times of prosperity people would be more empathetic and giving, but no, people bitch just as much when times are good as they do when times are bad. Even during the Clinton years all I ever heard was how good the folks on government assistance had it, most of it from my own father.

Originally Posted by camoor Yeah but worrying about expiring tax cuts on the rich is like worrying about literacy rates in Somalia. Why should we even care, we have real problems! It's such a dopey issue for 99% of the population to even pay attention to much less care about.

You want to explain to him how percentages aren't equal across all incomes, or should I? Because if every man is equal, then taxing some poor SOB at the same rate as his rich boss makes no sense as the dollar amounts will be different.

Originally Posted by egofed I hope to fight injustice in every way that I see it.

You're off to a piss-poor start Batman.

Originally Posted by Clak You want to explain to him how percentages aren't equal across all incomes, or should I? Because if every man is equal, then taxing some poor SOB at the same rate as his rich boss makes no sense as the dollar amounts will be different.

And it's not fair.

A rich person can give up 25% (or whatever flat tax number you go with) and not have a dent in their quality of life. Where as 25% of income is a huge quality of life hit to someone making $25k or whatever.

That's why a progressive system is needed. Charging the same percentage across all incomes isn't fair. People who make more can pay a bigger percentage and still afford luxuries, people who are barely getting by can't afford to pay the same percentage with no quality of life hit.

So is it fair share or that they can afford to pay it? There are always going to be inequality of outcomes in peoples' lives, the government is not there to regulate morals and outcomes, it is there to defend us and ensure that opportunity exists. This burden should be taken by all to fund. The rich often prosper despite government, not because of it. They owe no more than the family living on welfare. It's a system devised to capture as much money for the government as possible.

I hope that one day some rich sugar daddy comes and finally makes all this free defense worth it for you, otherwise you come off as one of the hope-to-be-rich crowd. Down on your knees so to speak, servicing those you aspire to be like.

Sell-out doesn't even begin to describe your attitude.

Originally Posted by egofed So is it fair share or that they can afford to pay it? There are always going to be inequality of outcomes in peoples' lives, the government is not there to regulate morals and outcomes, it is there to defend us and ensure that opportunity exists. This burden should be taken by all to fund. The rich often prosper despite government, not because of it. They owe no more than the family living on welfare. It's a system devised to capture as much money for the government as possible.

My family is fabulously wealthy by any measure, barring the truly outrageous fortunes of the world. My wife and I both went to public schools. My wife and I both graduated with undergraduate degrees from state colleges. I paid for mine using the GI Bill. We both took out federally subsidized loans to do so. We then took out more federally subsidized loans for her to go to law school. Then based on our gigantic income, we bought a house in part because of the mortgage income deduction.

Opportunity was afforded to us by federal and state taxpayers. We have used that assistance to enter the top 5% of earners in America and we reside among the top income families on the planet. My wife alone makes more money than all four of our parents combined.

Without conditions whatsoever, our story of incredible success would not have happened without the opportunity presented by very forward thinking politicians. Period. My children will grow up in something I never had: a home that their parents own. They as children ride in our brand new cars, something my wife and I had never done as children ourselves. My 6 month old has a college fund that has more money in it than my first car cost.

And I have myself, my wife, our families, and the American taxpayer to thank. And I am truly grateful. I don't understand why others aren't.

Originally Posted by egofed the government ... is there to defend us and ensure that opportunity exists.

wat

Originally Posted by egofed I care because right is right and wrong is wrong. Just because something makes sense to you, does not make it morally just. Javery shouldn't have to care about my situation. True freedom allows you to be a major dick if you want to be.;-) I do understand the progressive tax system, thank you very much. Taking 35% or 39% of any income should be criminal. We do have usury laws, too bad they do not apply to the government. The fair tax that I support does away with all income tax, speedracer. You get all of your income, and pay a higher tax on what you choose to purchase. As far as past taxation rates, old wrongs should be used as examples for the future? We do have a spending problem and a revenue problem. Too many people pay no income tax in our current system but still get to vote.

So people who don't pay income tax don't get to vote?

Originally Posted by camoor wat

Never mind that when he says "defend us" he doesn't specify against what the government is supposed to defend us. Welfare defends people against a number of things, just as an example. But I get the feeling he means defend us against the non-existant boogie men that we often end up going to war to fight. Then again, that's the job of the military, not the government.

So yeah, as usual what he said adds nothing to the conversation.

Back on the actual fiscal cliff talks. So a couple of days ago Obama pulls a bunch of CEOs up to the White House and proposed his plan. The Vampire Squid himself said he thought it was a good plan.

Now Boehner is going on and on complaining about Obama not putting forth a plan to cut Medicare. So sez the man:

Obama "has to get serious," Boehner told reporters following his discussion with Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner. "It's very clear what kind of spending cuts need to occur, but we have no idea what the White House is willing to do."

Political to english translation: Republicans want Obama to propose the Medicare cuts, the cuts that Obama:

1. Does not want
2. Was attacked by Republicans for in the presidential elections
3. Does not want

To recap:

Democrats want to increase taxes and have laid out a $1 trillion plan.
Republicans want medicare cuts and blame Democrats for not putting forward a plan to do what they want.

Or, as a blogger said better:

Cutting Social Security and Medicare benefits (can probably cut some costs without cutting delivered benefits) are bad politics and bad policy. It is very shocking that after spending a year attacking Obama for cutting Medicare, Republicans want Democrats to own cutting Medicare. This is the Republican game. You propose our unpopular policies and pass them, then we get to blame you for embracing our agenda.

Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup.

We think this is a bad idea, and we're going to force you to do it! -Republican MO?

I think they really just need to let the deadline come and taxes go up.

Then dems can put forth a bill to lower taxes on those making under $250k, would be political suicide for republicans to vote against it enmasse.

So it gets what we need with just the shitty fact of people in lower incomes paying higher taxes for a month or two. And if the republicans do block it long term, mid-term elections in 2014 should break solidly for the dems. Win-win in my book.