that would be a triple post, and another crappy post by msut.

lulz at me missing that first post. the lack of sig on the next three messed me up

edit: good read here

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/11/us.../11health.html

AMA opposes the healthcare bill.

I seriously wish there were more Canadians weighing in here. Pretty much any people I ever talk to from "socialist" nations like Canada love their health care and say that its only stupid American right wingers portraying them as waiting months for care or all these other misconceptions. Most recent was a chick me and my fiancee were talking to online and thinking of meeting up with in person. After a month or so of talking to her off and on I asked about healthcare and she said that even with having not 1 but 2 freaking autistic children she had never had a problem and thanks God she isnt in the US where she would be saddled with debt and little to no help for her two sons.

Also I love how double sided people are here. Conservatives say the government can run anything well...but yet if a liberal says the military has done anything wrong they go off the deep end. People like Tivo and the topic creator would rather twist the truth and quote what they have heard from Sean Hannity vs actually getting out there and talking to people or reading something worthwhile.

Again if you want to hear what some of the great minds have to say from US residents to people from other nations, from those on the right to those on the left check out foreign affairs journal.

Originally Posted by perdition(troy that would be a triple post, and another crappy post by msut.

Learn to count.

Originally Posted by JolietJake As someone without any sort of insurance, i'd welcome any sort of plan which provided me some sort of coverage, no matter how good or bad it may be. One thing i do wonder about though. If we had a federal free health care program, how many companies would still provide coverage as a company benefit?

None, why when you can get it free from the government?

Thus reducing the spread of risk the private carriers have, and increasing their prices more.

You all sit here like these companies are ripping everyone off.

There are RX for RA, and Crohns out there athat are $10,000 a pop and they are prescribed quarterly. So $40,000 in 4 treatments. No realistically the person getting those treatments has many other medical expenses, but you can bet your ass they are not paying $40,000 a year on medical insurance are they.

But somehow the insurance carrier that has to meet certain surplus funds, and liquid assets to liability ratios is the evil overcharging HMO. Its a spread of risk, some people pay in and get nothing or verylittle back, others get much more then they pay in.... its the entire concept of insurance.

Originally Posted by perdition(troy that would be a triple post, and another crappy post by msut. edit: good read here http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/11/us.../11health.html AMA opposes the healthcare bill.

I read that article too, an interesting little blurb in the middle:

"The A.M.A., an umbrella group for 180 medical societies, does not speak for all doctors. One group, Physicians for a National Health Program, supports a single-payer system of insurance, in which a single public agency would pay for health services, but most care would still be delivered by private doctors and hospitals. In recent years, some doctors have become so fed up with the administrative hassles of private insurance that they are looking for alternatives."

Originally Posted by VioletArrows Can't even begin to froth at how much I hate American healthcare. Shitty rudimentary cancer care's what killed my mother in 6 months, and since PCOS isn't immediately fatal, no one gives a shit about my condition or even knows what it is. All doctors know is to prescribe drugs that cause cancer to prevent cancer and tell me to starve myself, and all insurance companies know is that it's genetic so I can go piss off. So whatever the systems we have now are already deadly OP, take that shit-stirring FUD headline somewhere else.

So PCOS is fatal now? Poli cystic Ovarian syndrome (spelling may be wrong) correct? My wife has that. Yes the drugs can cause cancer, but from the information I have read its got a low fatality rate.

Are you trying to have kids or something? Plenty of people know what it is, maybe you need to get to an OB that cares if you feel they don't.

Take RA, Crohns, MS, etc... they cant prevent these either. You know what they say, here we know that RA/Crohns, is an overactive immune system issue, so instead of fixing it (cause we cant figure that out yet), lets beat the shit out of your immune system so you have less inflamation... so on top of feeling tired, and shitty, you run the risk of picking up many other diseases, and day to day sicknesses, with a compromised immune system.

There are a ton of these issues going on, with all sorts of diseases. Half of these diseases are most likely caused by all the shitty ass chemicals everyone,(including myself) put into our bodies on a daily basis.

Why by going to national health care do you think there will be some maricle cure for your issue? What will then be driving those companies to look for a solution, if they dont when they are all private? Its going to pay a lot less when the government tells them what they can sell the solution for.....

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Originally Posted by depascal22 One fix to the system could be to make HMO's run as non-profits. Many claims are denied so the bottom line can be maintained. I understand that pharmaceutical and medical device companies use profits to research new products that will "help" more people but what do HMO's use their profits for? Other than paying statisticians to make new formulas that deny more people for pre-existing conditions or what not. EDIT -- I know it's awfully socialist of me to question an individual corporation's motives and business practices but really what do they do with the money?

I can't speak on the states I dont write insurance on, as Blue Cross is actually broken up by state, but they all share networks...

BCBS of Michigan is "non profit"... let me tell you what that gets them.. They can manipulate the system to really drive out competing carriers with Small Group reform laws that they themselves wrote and then pushed through congress.

They can funnel money to their other owned susbidaries (Accident Fund, a Michigan Workers Compensation insurance carrier) and then use the funneled money to build new buildings, buy land, become more competitive, pay higher salaries, etc.

They get out of a lot of taxes as now they are "non profit" so they do not pay certian property or income taxes... all the while being one of the most expensive carriers in the state of Michigan.

Gotta love the non profit status and all the great things that come from that.

BTW just want to add in before as per usual I duck out to prevent wasting my time arguing that its absoultly disgusting that the line we are hearing from every conservative too is not just the ignorant crap about Canada but more importantly that THEY dont want to be responsible for taking care of the sick or "why should it come out of my pocket". Due to my living off disabilty and being a "leach on the system" me and my fiancee only make about $40,000 a year combined. Id gladly cut that in half to $20,000 a year losing the other half to taxes if it meant that I could go to bed every night knowing that every man woman and child is feed, has water, we are moving towards a greener cleaner society and they have proper health care.

Sorry that I actually care about my fellow man enough to give out of my own pocket. Sorry I realize that we dont all need an HDTV in every room and a car for not just every adult in the household but every teenager. Sorry that I recognize its better for me to live in a smaller apartment and buy a few games less a year but help others.

Society should and will be judged by how we took care of our poor and sick. I can only hope that when that day of judgment comes people fighting to keep every last penny even if it means others dying meet a horrid end their self(yep im liberal but a cold hard one

Originally Posted by Msut77 Quadruple post and all of it piss poor.

Care to tell me why?

Originally Posted by Snake2715 I can speak on the states I dont write insurance on, as Blue Cross is actually broken up by state, but they all share networks... BCBS of Michigan is "non profit"... let me tell you what that gets them.. They can manipulate the system to really drive out competing carriers with Small Group reform laws that they themselves wrote and then pushed through congress. They can funnel money to their other owned susbidaries (Accident Fund, a Michigan Workers Compensation insurance carrier) and then use the funneled money to build new buildings, buy land, become more competitive, pay higher salaries, etc. They get out of a lot of taxes as now they are "non profit" so they do not pay certian property or income taxes... all the while being one of the most expensive carriers in the state of Michigan. Gotta love the non profit status and all the great things that come from that.

I would work to eliminate all those loopholes but you make very valid points. So how would you fix healthcare since you seem to have first hand knowledge?

Originally Posted by Snake2715 Care to tell me why?

I don't know why your posts are so piss poor, if I had to guess it seems that why you are certainly more energetic than the other posters you are equally dim. Now I can start on how your posts are so piss poor starting off with how you seem to believe that being able to get seen in an ER is a substitute for a working medical system.

Msut is one of those people you know has no life.

Originally Posted by perdition(troy Msut is one of those people you know has no life.

We're talking politics on a cheap gaming site. NONE of us have a life.

Originally Posted by perdition(troy Msut is one of those people you know has no life.

At least I can count, one would think that would be vital to your bed-pan changing career but then here we are.

Are you going to turn into a bitter kvetcher because you get shown to be a moron with every post? Because ramstoria might get mad you are infringing on his turf.

Originally Posted by depascal22 We're talking politics on a cheap gaming site. NONE of us have a life.

hey! im at work.

Originally Posted by RAMSTORIA hey! im at work.

ditto

So you're at work and talking politics on a gaming website. I'm sorry. Please go ahead with your "work".

et trois.

Originally Posted by Msut77 I don't know why your posts are so piss poor, if I had to guess it seems that why you are certainly more energetic than the other posters you are equally dim. Now I can start on how your posts are so piss poor starting off with how you seem to believe that being able to get seen in an ER is a substitute for a working medical system.

So you started, didn't back it up with examples of these * working health care systems, and you never finished with anything at all... and my posts are piss poor?

*edited

I find it hard to believe that any one system works for everyone.


depascal22,

I don't have an answer as how to fix the system. I see where people are suffering and then again where companies (small business) that could offer insurance, now cant afford to. I see on a daily basis peoples lives it effects, and have been through both ends of this personally.

My brother was in a car accident and almost died, had to have brain surgery and literally half of his face is paralyzed to this day (nerve damage). He had no health insurance at the time.... actually he had been paying for health insurance for 45 days, but his union was 6 days away from starting his medical insurance when the accident happened, so he had no coverage....

On the other end of the spectrum I see people that are married and have 5-6 kids get on Blue Cross plans for $400 a month and get $10,000's of coverage each year for a measly 4,980 in annual payments. I see people that have food stamps and get Medicaid coverage pull up to pay their auto insurance in their escelades, and pay from a rubber banded wad of cash.

There is not going to ever be a perfect system. There never is. I think there needs to be something put into place, but I don't have the complete answer. In the example above my Brother owed more than $200,000 in medical bills, yet he was making too much for Medicaid help (barely). So its following him around, and he cant pay that back. There is a huge trickle effect to that accident and the bills. His credit is effected, which effects what he can buy. He could have had better treatment had he had medical coverage, and his nerve damage may have been reduced. He may not have lost his job due to the physical thereapy he had to go through had the accident have never happened.

There will always be people that feel strongly either way, and have personal experience to back it up. Its the same for anything else from brands of cars, to paying with paypal, to selling on ebay vs amazon vs craigslist, etc. To shopping for US produced goods over imports.

What I guess I get stirred up about is that people on both sides are blind to the opposite argument. There are Federal laws in place, and then each state has mandated their own set of laws. I don't write insurance in PA, but as Koggit (I think) mentioned apparently they don't allow coverage for Pre X conditions ever... That seems crazy as I believe the Fedearal mandate is 18 months max, for Pre existing condition exclusion. Some carriers in the 5 states I write in have 6 months self imposed, and some dont exclude conditions at all.

The problem with the government stepping in is there are going to be huge impacts on both sides of the table. I have this feeling that its going to sweep through and no one is going to look into the details of the plan. This just happened with the bail outs and rescues, etc.

Actually it even happened with COBRA benefits. There was a sweeping reform put through and small businesses have to pay 65% subsidy to those employees that were laid off from September forward. They are to pay 65% of the COBRA premiums on behalf of those employees for up to 9 months. This was to help the growing number of people that got laid off and could not afford COBRA, yet needed the coverage.

Want to know that it was messed up for quite a few months, and there are still COBRA administrators that are being cautious at how to handle it... why you may ask...

With COBRA there is a 2% admin fee that is to be collected on top of the 100% medical insurance premium. This goes to the administrator of the COBRA plan, whether that is the small business or a TPA. When the reform passed it overlooked this fee and didn't clarify if the 65% paid by the employer included that 2% fee. Sounds simple, but think of the consequences of that oversight. Its still causing confusion because 65% of 100% is different than 65% of 102%.

I have no confidence in the Government being able to pass anything that works in short order. I really don't.

Originally Posted by Snake2715 So you started, didnt back it up with examples of these mythical working healthcare systems, and you never finished with anything at all... and my posts are piss poor?

Mythical?