Great show. I have to say, Wombat had some great things to say in this show, especially his stance about the Ubisoft DRM policy. Shame on Cheapy and Ship for cutting his speech so much in the show. Also, I gotta say the funniest part of the show was name´s read at the end. I just wish you said what exactly did they do.

Gonna have to agree with Wombat about this one for a simple reason. People, while bitching about how mean Ubisoft is, forgot about this.

http://www.gamepolitics.com/2008/12/...ersia-what039s

It wasn't just Prince of Persia though, every game they dropped for three full months were DRM free as a test to see if consumers would support such efforts. So how did it fair? Over 5 million torrent downloads and less than 200K sold across retail and Steam for the first full year.

So everyone thinking Ubisoft is being unreasonable? Screw you. When they TRUSTED the PC users, they received the single highest pirated game they ever released. If PC gamers want games, they NEED to quit stealing them because, as Shipwreck said, when this doesn't work, support for the platform dies. No ifs,ands,or buts. This is their line in the sand, if it's compromised... well let's just say you've lost yet another developer pulling support for the much more profitable PS360 sales. Want to keep your industry intact, how about you actually start BUYING the games.

Originally Posted by Wombat Don't be so quick to be angry and try listening,

Ironic post of the day

Originally Posted by sheppyboy2000 If PC gamers want games, they NEED to quit stealing them because, as Shipwreck said, when this doesn't work, support for the platform dies. .

Of course you (and Ubisoft) are assuming that all PC gamers are stealing games. Granted they may have to think that way to still make PC games but it is pretty lousy.

AS2 is really bad because it requires a CONSTANT connection. You lose connection you lost the game. It's dumb. Even in a fully broadband capable house, the internet connection can and does get lost for a multitude of reasons. And if you think Ubi is not looking at this for console games as well, you are kidding yourself.

And let's be honest. The what the people who are okay with this are saying is "I don't play PC games, it doesn't affect me so all of you who do"

Originally Posted by super_nerd WoW is a MMORPG, as in you are playing with other people, you are connecting to a server to play like any other multiplayer game. AC2 is a single player experience (playing locally on your PC), so there is a big difference. If this system was implemented on consoles, there would be an equal amount of outspoken people. What would be more annoying than to lose progress in your game just because you lost connection? It would annoy me greatly, though I don't know how much it would bother others.

I'm sure Cheapy and Wombat would both be foaming at the mouth in anger if they were forced to lose big chunks of progress in single-player 360 games just because their internet connection dropped for a second.

Originally Posted by sheppyboy2000 Gonna have to agree with Wombat about this one for a simple reason. People, while bitching about how mean Ubisoft is, forgot about this. http://www.gamepolitics.com/2008/12/...ersia-what039s

That article gives a great example of why PC gamers can't count on a DRM system that relies on Ubisoft always having its servers running properly.

Originally Posted by sheppyboy2000 So everyone thinking Ubisoft is being unreasonable? Screw you. When they TRUSTED the PC users, they received the single highest pirated game they ever released. If PC gamers want games, they NEED to quit stealing them because, as Shipwreck said, when this doesn't work, support for the platform dies. No ifs,ands,or buts. This is their line in the sand, if it's compromised... well let's just say you've lost yet another developer pulling support for the much more profitable PS360 sales. Want to keep your industry intact, how about you actually start BUYING the games.

Who the do you think you're talking to? No one in this thread is supporting or condoning game piracy, and I have never pirated a PC game in my life. Ubisoft ARE being unreasonable because their DRM will only hurt paying customers. Pirates will download the cracked version and be able to play without having to maintain an uninterrupted internet connection.

I disagree with Wombat on DRM for one single reason:

DRM only hurts legitimate customers.

It's that simple. Pirates are not affected by DRM in the least. They crack it and get a perfectly functional game. The legitimate customer, who paid $60 bucks for AC2 and needs no punishment, gets hassled and frustrated instead.

And believe it or not, I do play PC games that are 10 years old. I even play PC games that are 20 years old. The longevity of a game is important to me. DRM like in AC2 means that game is worth significantly less, since it is simply a glorified long-term rental.

I'm calling it now: Final Fantasy on PS3 sells the most.

Originally Posted by lebkin I disagree with Wombat on DRM for one single reason: DRM only hurts legitimate customers. It's that simple. Pirates are not affected by DRM in the least. They crack it and get a perfectly functional game. The legitimate customer, who paid $60 bucks for AC2 and needs no punishment, gets hassled and frustrated instead. And believe it or not, I do play PC games that are 10 years old. I even play PC games that are 20 years old. The longevity of a game is important to me. DRM like in AC2 means that game is worth significantly less, since it is simply a glorified long-term rental.

Do you fault them for trying? AS of now we don't know if pirates COULD get past this sort of problem (I'm sure they will, but it may make it harder for folks to Download and run). And like Wombat said, if this DRM solution does not work - then they wont make their games for PC anymore. Do you prefer that?

It blows my mind that people are so against this - it's like those people that get mad at airport security because it takes a HELL of a long time to get on the plane. It is needed! Yea you are hurting the common folk, but atleast you are trying to prevent any problems.

Originally Posted by sheppyboy2000 Gonna have to agree with Wombat about this one for a simple reason. People, while bitching about how mean Ubisoft is, forgot about this. http://www.gamepolitics.com/2008/12/...ersia-what039s It wasn't just Prince of Persia though, every game they dropped for three full months were DRM free as a test to see if consumers would support such efforts. So how did it fair? Over 5 million torrent downloads and less than 200K sold across retail and Steam for the first full year. So everyone thinking Ubisoft is being unreasonable? Screw you. When they TRUSTED the PC users, they received the single highest pirated game they ever released. If PC gamers want games, they NEED to quit stealing them because, as Shipwreck said, when this doesn't work, support for the platform dies. No ifs,ands,or buts. This is their line in the sand, if it's compromised... well let's just say you've lost yet another developer pulling support for the much more profitable PS360 sales. Want to keep your industry intact, how about you actually start BUYING the games.

Yes exactly! This BS that DRM encourages people to steal is insanely dumb. And I really wish PC Gamers would stop acting like they are on their high horse saying, "I only download games that are trying to screw me over!!". Point is, the average consumer (the one PC gamers seemed to be "so worried" about) wont notice and they wont care. And they wont be downloading it illegally because they don't know how.

And just look at DEMIGOD. For F sakes PC games should be banned after what happened to those poor guys. First day they shipped 100k copies and sold 60k or so - and there was 140k people online. Their servers could not handle it, so they had to stay over time for a week trying to fix it. Did they "Deserve it"? NO way. Pirates are consistently trying to justify their reasonings behind stealing games; if it's not having to keep the disc in the tray, it's cloud saving. If it is not not allowing you to install more than 4 times, it's having to register online.

They have to try these things - because they care about the PC Game market. And when they sit by and let gamers purchase their games with no restrictions - it is just as bad or worse.

(Oh and before I get bitched: I am an avid PC gamer)

Perfect example of why the "no DRM" model fails: Demigod. Stardock, a very small PC games publisher went out of their way to say they didn't want to put DRM in games. This isn't a huge company with deep pockets that people could accuse of being greedy. What happened? There were so many torrented copies, versus what the game actually sold, that it brought the online servers to its knees making it unplayable for almost everybody.

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Originally Posted by banodyne Perfect example of why the "no DRM" model fails: Demigod. Stardock, a very small PC games publisher went out of their way to say they didn't want to put DRM in games. This isn't a huge company with deep pockets that people could accuse of being greedy. What happened? There were so many torrented copies, versus what the game actually sold, that it brought the online servers to its knees making it unplayable for almost everybody.

That is not what happened. You need to go back and follow the timeline with that game. I have been on the Stardock forums for awhile. Brad, that's the CEO of Stardock by the way, has said there was a fundamental flaw in the P2P nature of the online multiplayer GPG, the developer, used. He has also said, REPEATEDLY, that it would have been easy and WRONG to blame the problems Demigod had on pirates.

As for Ubisoft, screw them, i won't buy their games. EA, maybe later when they are done milking the die-hard fans.

Originally Posted by Wombat We were responding to a specific question about the 5 games we discussed. If Nick had asked us about Pokemon it would have been on the list. Don't be so quick to be angry and try listening,

As co-host of the show it is your duty to add insightful analysis and commentary, no matter the circumstances, whether it be adding a game to the conversation or ignoring game specs.

I think Cd-Keys or the Steam system are the way to go. People will ALWAYS pirate and break through but these are measures that serve to keep the average idiot from copying the game and are not cumbersome to the paying customer

Originally Posted by Nesrie That is not what happened. You need to go back and follow the timeline with that game. I have been on the Stardock forums for awhile. Brad, that's the CEO of Stardock by the way, has said there was a fundamental flaw in the P2P nature of the online multiplayer GPG, the developer, used. He has also said, REPEATEDLY, that it would have been easy and WRONG to blame the problems Demigod had on pirates. As for Ubisoft, screw them, i won't buy their games. EA, maybe later when they are done milking the die-hard fans.

"Sadly, most of the ~120,000 connections are not customers but via warez," writes Wardell. "About 18,000 are legitimate."

"Our stress tests had counted on having maybe 50,000 people playing at once at peak and that wouldn’t be reached for a few weeks," he adds, "by which time we would have slowly seen things becoming problematic."

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=23259

On the DRM thing. WTF is Wombat talking about? You blame the pirates, but don't realize they're not the ones who are being hurt by it. Yes, the people who pirate games shouldn't be doing it. Yes, it's their fault. But they won't be punished for it. Legitimate customers are being punished. People will pirate it and have a BETTER experience than paying customers. Yes, you have to be online to play WoW, but that's an online experience. AC2 is a single player game, the reliability of your internet connection shouldn't factor into it.

There's no easy solution to piracy, but this isn't the answer. People who were going to pirate this game will now do it anyway. This isn't going to stop piracy. People who aren't pirating the game will get fed up with the connection thing and may be driven to find a crack to play it offline. And then in the future they'll say, "Why would I want to pay for this bullshit again? I'm going to pirate the next Ubisoft game." That's the problem.

There is no simple answer to the PC piracy issue, and unfortunately, I think at some point, publishers won't bother porting any console-centric games. Whether a publisher puts DRM in their game or not, they still get burned, so you have to wonder how long they're going to bother.

Wombat loses 16 nerd xp for that horrible mangling of the labyrinth magic dance lyrics. Minus 8 more for the bad Bowie too!

Originally Posted by banodyne "Sadly, most of the ~120,000 connections are not customers but via warez," writes Wardell. "About 18,000 are legitimate." "Our stress tests had counted on having maybe 50,000 people playing at once at peak and that wouldn’t be reached for a few weeks," he adds, "by which time we would have slowly seen things becoming problematic." http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=23259

Go to the source. Always a good idea. here you. I've highlighted some of the more important parts.

http://forums.demigodthegame.com/352561/page/4/

<H2>Demigod: So what the hell happened?

By Frogboy Posted May 18, 2009 7:30:13 PM I’ll be writing a lot more on this particular issue in the coming weeks as I’ve had more time to review internal reports. For those of you just joining us let me bring you up to speed. Our story so far… Demigod, a high profile, AAA action-strategy-role playing game was released on April 14th. Well, it was supposed to be released on April 14th but actually got released at Gamestop stores early due to a…miscommunication between their corporate HQ and their brick and mortar outlets. This wouldn’t normally have been that big of a deal except this happened to be over Easter weekend and the release servers for the game weren’t yet up. Moreover, it also caused the “warez” version (i.e. there’s no copy protection on the game so the warez version meant someone bravely zipping it up and putting it up on a torrent) resulting in over 100,000 people using it – at once – before we were even back from Easter break. Suffice to say, it wasn’t a pretty picture. For the first few days, we struggled to migrate people to a different set of servers that only legitimate users had access to. This took about 48 hours. But during this brief window, the game was basically unplayable because you couldn’t even get online – at all. We got whacked with some pretty negative first week reviews not surprisingly. But our woes weren’t over yet. It became pretty clear that the NAT servers (the servers that negotiate the connection between player A and player couldn’t handle the # of users on the game resulting in a horrible online experience. As other people have pointed out, this sort of thing isn’t unique to Demigod (i.e. plenty of other games have had rough online launches) but the big difference is that those other games had a lot more single player content whereas Demigod relies more on its multiplayer experience than most games so it was a much bigger problem. Like most games, Demigod uses a lot of licensed code. Demigod’s awesome 3D models are powered party by Granny 3D. The videos in the game are powered by Bink. The sound is powered by Fmod. And the network connectivity was powered by Raknet. These are all very good libraries and used by major publishers. But Demigod’s network requirements are somewhat unusual and demanding. First, Demigod is peer-to-peer and not client server. Everyone connects to everyone. Second, the number of people playing is unusual. Yes, some people do play 4 on 4 games of Supreme Commander or Company of Heroes but typically they’re 1 on 1 or 2 on 2. The more connections, the more complex. The result was that it was a nightmare to get games going online. The problems Demigod’s connectivity problems have basically boiled down to 1 bad design decision and 1 architectural limitation. The bad design decision was made in December of 2008 when it was decided to have the network library hand off sockets to Demigod proper. In most games, the connection between players is handled purely by one source. For instance, in Supreme Commander, GPGNet handled the entire connection. So in Demigod, on launch day, Alice would host a game. Tom would be connected to Alice by the network library and then that socket would be handed to Demigod. Then, Alice and Tom would open a new socket to listen for more players to join in. As a result, a user might end up using a half dozen ports and sockets which some routers didn’t like and it just made things incredibly complex to connect people and put a lot of strain on the servers to manage all those connections. Now, the architectural limitation came from the way the network library’s database handled things. We still don’t have a clear idea on why it was so limited but this was the overwhelming problem that only got resolved late last week. Here’s how it works: Alice hosts a game. In doing so, she sends a message to the NAT server (as well as our servers). Tom wants to join so Tom clicks join and it tells the NAT server to begin connecting them. But, it turned out that a relatively small number of people online at once would quickly result in a huge delay in messages being sent back and forth. For instance, when Tom clicks join it sends a message to the server to tell it to start connecting Tom and Alice. But Alice might not get that message for 30 or 40 seconds. That means, for that entire time, Tom and Alice are “attempting to connect” but haven’t even really started because Alice hasn’t even gotten the message. As more people tried to join the game, that delay could get worse and worse. If someone left the game, it could take that amount of time for the server to realize that player had left (meanwhile it was trying to connect them).

</H2><DIV id=_PostBody class=text sdproto="1">
And the rest, again, from the actual source not a gaming news site that likes to summarize things, sometimes incorrectly.

http://forums.demigodthegame.com/349758

Demigod: So much for piracy



By Frogboy Posted April 29, 2009 12:15:08 PM
<DIV id=_PostBody class=text sdproto="1">If I wrote a post saying that Demigod sales were far below what we had hoped for and I said that the reason was due to piracy and that the answer was that we should have put some nasty copy protection on those DVDs to have prevented early piracy what do you think people would say?
I know what my answer to that would be. I would say that Stardock couldn’t blame poor sales on piracy but rather the fact that the game’s built-in multiplayer match-making was totally broken for the first day of release due to its underestimation of network resources that a mainstream game would take and even when that got addressed, the multiplayer match-making for two weeks and counting has been incredibly flakey which affected reviews and word of mouth. That’s what I would say.
And yet…

I have to disagree with wombat, i dont believe the 360 version of Final
Fantasy 13 is going to outsell the PS3 version.

yay I was a shoutout!!

Based on what was said on the 'cast, I don't think AC2 using internet verification is a big deal. It's much, MUCH better than limiting the # of installs, the BS Starforce which could cripple systems, or anything else that seems to punish the user. If you have a computer that can run AC2 odds are you're connected to the internet pretty much constantly. For the people who have gaming laptops to play games on the go, it could be another story.

I'll agree it's obnoxious. To the person who said there would be an equal # of complaints on consoles, it would actually be exponentially more, since there are still plenty of people with consoles that don't take them online frequently or at all. Consoles are just more catered to single-player games, whereas PCs are have tons of functionality dependent on the internet (though I admit the line between the 2 gets narrower every day).

I agree with Wombat that the people who were/are going to pirate the game were going to do that before any of the DRM was even announced. It could be DRM-free and people would still do it. In highschool, I recall a friend criticizing me for buying Doom 3 when it came out, saying, "Games are free, you should spend your money on hardware to upgrade your computer instead." Between that and music, we have an entire generation being raised on piracy being the norm, so long as you aren't actually shoplifting it's regarded as a totally separate thing to most people.

Regarding the concerns that the servers could go offline in 10 years, I know in the past games that have limited installs or online verification get patched X years later when it doesn't really matter any more from a profit standpoint. I'd like to think this would happen to AC2.

Originally Posted by KingBroly As co-host of the show it is your duty to add insightful analysis and commentary, no matter the circumstances, whether it be adding a game to the conversation or ignoring game specs.

You're absolutely right! Wombat has a DUTY to bring up as many Nintendo products that he can for the show that he does in his personal time for free!



There are several other podcasts that focus on things that the CAGcast don't pick up on. You can be a fan of more than one podcast at a time, you know. I'm sure RawMeatCowboy and his gang will be all over it.

Listen up, Francis.